86. NROI Podcast October 2025 #1

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
This is the NROI podcast, your source for factual
information for USPSA and SCSAcompetition.
This podcast is brought to youby the National Range Officers
Institute, United StatesPractical Shooting Association,
and Steel Challenge ShootingAssociation.
All rolebooks can be found atUSPSA.org slash rules, STSA.org

(00:21):
slash rules, and on the USPSAand STSA apps available in your
Apple App Store and Google PlayStore.
All rates for this podcast arereserved.
No portion of this podcast maybe used or redistributed without
written permission from thedirector of the National Range
Officers Institute.
Rules discussions on thispodcast do not constitute an
official ruling.
The discussions on this podcastare meant to inform and educate.

(00:44):
The only official rulings arepublished as per the bylaws
United States Practical ShootingAssociation.
Questions about rules should beemailed to rules at USPSA.org.
This is episode 86, recordedvery late September 2025.
Well everyone, the gang is backtogether.

(01:05):
Troy has made it back to theUnited States from South Africa.
We'll have his report shortly.
I'm Kevin Emmel with the NRYpodcast, and Troy McManus is
here.
Good evening, Troy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
Good evening.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17):
And Joey Human.
Good evening, Jody.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
Good evening.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
All right, Troy.
Well, you made it back fromSouth Africa.
The U.S.
team did pretty darn good,brought home a lot of metal.
Um, so how about telling us whatall went on down there?

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
All right, so we started off with an opening
ceremony that was in a uh highschool football stadium.
And by football, I don't meanlike American football, soccer
and rugby, I think.
But um, and it was packed fullof people.
There was a surprising number ofspectators there.
The usual parade uh was not verylong because we just walked

(01:54):
around the track.
Um, obviously there's somesecurity concerns in South
Africa, and uh this was inClerksdarp.
Uh so Clerksdarp is a miningtown and it's very spread out.
So there wasn't really a adowntown area to walk through
like you'd normally see for afor a usual opening ceremony for

(02:14):
IPSC world shoot.
But all the teams wererepresented.
Um they had a little show, theyhad some native dancers and
stuff like that.
And then uh they were supposedto have the mayor come and
speak, but he didn't show up.
So the opening ceremony was wasrelatively short.
Um they had a uh a snack areaset up in the back side of the

(02:37):
thing where they were servingbeer and food after the after
the thing went on.
Well, they were serving the beerbeforehand, but they did the
food afterwards.
So uh got a lot of pictures fromthat.
Uh the U.S.
delegation was there.
We had 133 people that actuallyshot the world shoot, which is a
pretty high number of people.
I think we were second only tothe Philippines for a number of
shooters in here.
And then Leighton and and hiscrew were doing a uh live

(03:01):
streaming of the match.
Uh they had cameras roamingaround.
Uh this was this was sort of afirst-time thing for this
production crew and for Laytonand for us to try to live stream
something from halfway aroundthe world.
Uh, but it was working out.
We they picked up, I don't know,44,000 views on the first day.

(03:22):
And to be honest, it was justLeighton talking to me.
I was kind of the guinea pig forsitting down and being
interviewed.
So if 44,000 people want to seeme talk, um, it obviously picked
up when they had people likeEric Griffell or Nelson Jonathan
or or Shannon Smith or somebodyspeaking on the podcast.
Uh so uh it turned out very goodon the live stream, I mean, not

(03:45):
a podcast.
But uh on the last day, uhYouTube shut us down because it
seemed like we violated somepolicy of theirs where they were
handling a gun at the tablewhere they were doing it, and it
appeared that they pointed thegun at somebody, right?
So evidently YouTube standardswhere you can shoot targets all

(04:07):
day long, but you can'taccidentally point a gun at
somebody.
And we really couldn't find thethe footage where it looked like
that, but somebody probablyreported it.
I don't know.
Uh, but anyway, we got the livestream killed.
But up till that point, we hadtons of excuse me, tons of views
and uh tons of people at thematch actually coming and

(04:29):
saying, hey, I watched this onYouTube yesterday, because you
could you know pick it up again.
It obviously wasn't live, but alot of people at the match
itself from all over the worldcoming and saying what a great
thing they thought it was.
The IPSC folks were fully insupport of it.
Uh I have to commend Leightonand his crew because man, it was
hard work.
They uh the crew showed up atthe airport at the same time I

(04:52):
got there, and I I was actuallythrough uh immigration and stuff
before they got through.
They were on the same flight Iwas on, and I met Leighton, and
then I see these four guyscoming pushing about five carts.
They had a couple of peoplehelping them, just loaded down
with pelican cases full ofequipment.
So they rented a couple of vans,and one of the vans they used

(05:14):
for their production uh van andhad to mount all of that stuff
in there.
It was it was very primitivethough, because they were
running off of a off of acircuit at the range that also
fed the water pump that fedeverything.
So every once in a while they'doverload the circuit and lose
power, but uh um it's you justthey just had to go with what

(05:35):
they had, right?
Because I mean, obviously it wasa very expensive proposition to
get everybody over there.
And I believe that Leighton uhfinanced that himself.
I know USPSA didn't put themoney into it um as an
organization, but he wanted toget it done and they got it
done.
So uh as far as success on thefirst pass, it was good.

(05:55):
I had a guy come up to me uh, Ithink the second or third day.
Um shooting started every day at6 30 in the morning because they
had four flights every day, andit had an average of two minute
and 26 second uh turnaroundtime.
That was the expectation pershooter, right?
So E6 and of course had the kindof had the 321 motif going.

(06:18):
So your longer courses took alittle longer, but they made it
up on the shorter ones.
How many stages I was out thereabout say what?

SPEAKER_02 (06:28):
How many stages did they shoot each day?

SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Oh, they shot six stages each day.
Okay.
So there were five five areaswith six stages in it, 30 stages
all together.
And then everybody had a dayoff, right?
So even the range officers got aday off.
So they shot for six days, buteverybody that was actually
competing only shot five of thesix days.
They all had a day off.

(06:52):
So you choose six stages in thatin that area, and um it went 6
30 to 9 o'clock, so two and ahalf hours.
Yeah.
Eight man squad, so which madeit go a little bit quicker.
Uh, but I was out there by six,six fifteen every day, and I was
sitting in the in a productionarea, of course, nothing was

(07:15):
going on yet, having somecoffee, and and some guy walked
up and said, Oh, I've beenwatching the the live stream and
it's great.
I was like, All right, thanks.
I appreciate that.
And he goes, but he said thevideo kind of sucks.
So they were using cameras thathad transmitters on them, but
this range was big, right?
It's very big, and so thetransmitters would the the

(07:37):
signal would get a little fuzzy,and so they didn't have the most
beautiful live video ever.
And I just looked at him and Isaid, Well, here's my suggestion
for you.
And he goes, What is it?
I said, You do it next time.
So he just turned around andwalked away, right?
Um, I mean, they were doing thebest they could, right?
I mean, you can't you can'ttransmit live with a camera that

(08:00):
you know without some verystrong Wi-Fi and stuff, and we
were not allowed to get on theon the scoring Wi-Fi for obvious
reasons.
Um, they but speaking of that,they they actually set up a way
that Leighton could get into thescoring system, and it was it
was live feeding the scores asthey were put in.

(08:21):
So he could kind of tell who wasdoing what, when, and where.
And that was just a gift from uhJose Bolino, who runs the ESS
scoring kind of thing.
And uh he just he just gotLeighton hooked into that.
So they were very, verysupportive of everything that
that the U.S.
folks were trying to do to livestream this match.
And I think that's gonna be thethe kind of the thing of the

(08:42):
future.
I think IPSC is gonna try to getbehind some of that and see if
they can't do it, because theygot tons of positive response
for it from all over the world.

unknown (08:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Um like Kevin mentioned, our teams did well.
Uh Open Team took gold.
Uh uh Krista Seiler took firstoverall.
Um, the revolver team took gold,uh, placed one, two, three on
the podium.
Uh ladies, uh, production opticsdid well.
Uh standard, standard ladies didwell.

(09:12):
I think Karina Randolph placeduh second or third in that, but
she shot it in the pre-match.
So uh obviously she had goneback home and wasn't at the
awards to get her medal, butthey'll get a medal tour.
Uh um I don't I didn't reallysee what all the rest of the
results were, but I'm surethey're published somewhere.
But the American teams did verywell.
The Filipinos were very strong.

(09:33):
Uh the Brazilians had a verystrong team as well.
So uh all of those guys shot agood match.
Uh of course, Eric Rafel won uhproduction or production optics
or whatever he shot.
So he was he was clearly the thewinner.
And by the last day, he was 100points ahead of the next guy.
So um there was there was nobeating him in that match.

(09:55):
And he he actually interviewedon the live stream as well.
So uh a lot of people got tospeak on there, they got to talk
about a lot of things.
Um, but overall it was a greatmatch.
Uh, the U.S.
delegation was was very polite.
We got tons of compliments on onour competitors being nice and
polite, uh, very goodsportsmanship.
We didn't have any issueswhatsoever.

(10:17):
Uh Dan Olstadt was there as sortof a as a second uh team
manager.
And while he was a little bitunsure of his role as uh when we
first got there, he he actuallygot into it and and understood
what he was supposed to do,which is mostly support the
teams.
Uh you know, if they needed ascoring thing called, well then

(10:38):
we would go and and talk to thedeputy RM or the Rangemaster and
go to stats and try to work itout, uh, which would left the
teams free to kind ofconcentrate on what they were
doing.
Uh, we did intervene interveneon a couple of disqualifications
that that did get overturned.
Unfortunately, we had a couplethat did not.
Um, but sometimes there's justnothing you could do.

(10:58):
It's very clear cut.
So uh that's not something thatyou can always overturn.
And then whenever they had ascoring challenge, we would try
to make sure that theyunderstood that they could take
that to the chief range officerfor that area, they could take
that to the range master, right?
So some of the people on theseon these team teams, it was

(11:18):
their first international matchuh in another country, and
didn't have a lot of experiencedoing IPST type stuff, and
didn't really understand theprocedures and stuff.
So I think between um uh Dan andI, I think we were quite useful
for helping the teams get getgoing, you know, and understand
what they could and couldn't doand helping out things just some

(11:41):
intervention.
So uh there were several kind ofmajor things that we helped work
out.
Uh the two range masters for themaps, uh Chris Prinzloo was the
South African, and theytypically appoint a deputy
rangemaster from the hostcountry.
So that was Chris Prinzloo, uhheck of a good guy, very good
rangemaster.
And the other range master wasuh I I will kill his last name.

(12:02):
I don't remember.
Uh I can't pronounce it, but hisfirst name was Paolo, and he was
very easy to get along with.
Um, the stats folks were great.
Uh the Bellino brothers were inthere and uh did a lot of work
for us.
We managed to get a couple ofphotographer passes for people
that were trying to cover someof the team stuff.
Uh, so they were very helpful inthat regard.

(12:23):
And it worked out well.
I mean, I can't say enough aboutuh how easy it was dealing with
the the U.S.
team and the rest of thedelegates as far as sometimes
how it was in the past, right?
So we're all Americans, weexpect things to go our way and
we expect things to be doneimmediately.
But when you're in a countrylike South Africa, uh you have

(12:46):
to, like I always say, you haveto lower your expectations, sir.
So the permitting of getting thefirearms in the country was a
bit of a battle.
Uh, not so much with ammunition,but the firearms permits were
very slow and coming.
And in fact, some people hadtheir guns held at the airport
while they were actually at therange.
Uh they got them in time toshoot.

(13:08):
I think one one of our delegatesgot his a day later, but they
gave him a uh speed pass, theycall it, and managed to uh catch
him up.
But it's just uh it's a policething that they had police at
the airport that were handlingpermits, but they couldn't
approve everything bythemselves.
They had to pass it on tosomebody up the line.

(13:31):
That somebody up the line mighthave been in Johannesburg, uh,
and then they would, you know,backburner it for a little
while.
It was like they they weren't inany big hurry to get that stuff
done.
But all of the teams from everycountry had the same issue.
They weren't just picking on theAmericans.
So uh, but eventually everybodygot their firearms, everybody
got ammunition, and they wereable to shoot the match.

(13:54):
But it was one of the majorheadaches of the of the World
Shoot match.
Um, other than that, everythingelse was pretty good.
The the food on the range wasexcellent.
They had about four vendorsthere that were selling food.
Uh I mentioned uh to Kevin andJody there was a bar on the
range.
Uh, you could certainly go inthere and have a drink and just

(14:14):
set us on the door said noalcohol past this point.
Now, I didn't see anybody, youknow, walking around drunk or
drinking if they were shootingor anything, but it was a good
spot to hit at the end of theday, you know.
Um but you know, good burgers,uh, they did good sausage.
Uh there was a uh a MiddleEastern style place that had

(14:36):
that had different foods that alot of people spend their life.
Uh chicken strips, they were bigon chicken strips and you know,
cold drinks and and all thatkind of thing.
So uh overall, uh the place wasa little bit out of the way
compared to the amount of travelyou sometimes have to do from
wherever you fly into to get tothe remains.
But you know, there were thingsfor people to do around there

(14:58):
that were very interesting aswell.
There were a lot of gamepreserves, there were a lot of
uh places where you could seelions and giraffes and you know,
all kind of hoofed animals andand some of the predators in the
wild.
So I think people had a goodtime when they went there.
So uh long flight there, 17hours and 17 and a half to come
back just to get back toAtlanta.

(15:19):
So a pretty long flight.
Uh a little bit bumpy at times,but other than that, you know,
if you're traveling that thatfar, you gotta just expect
you're gonna be sitting down forquite a while.
So um that's about it.

SPEAKER_02 (15:32):
Well, I just I looked up the results and uh
team you team USA also went one,two, and three and open.
And there's a familiar name inthird place.
A lot of you know ourinstructor, George Jones.
We bring up his name every oncein a while on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Hi, George.

SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
Hi, George.
Uh his son Brian, who if youtake the RO class, he's in two
of the videos we have in the ROclass.
His son Brian got third bronzethird place at uh World Shoot.
So very awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
You know, the funny thing about that is Brian took
quite a bit of time off toattend medical school and a
residency.
Yeah, yeah, and become apracticing uh ophthalmologist,
ophthalmological surgeon.
His wife is the same thing.
They have a baby, they have anew baby, and he jumped back in
a yeah, he jumped back intoshooting about a year and a half

(16:21):
ago, and and here he is takingyou know bronze on the podium at
the World Shoot.
So pretty amazing comeback,really, because a lot of folks
don't come back from that.
But no, I'm sure George is veryproud.
Yeah.
So revolver team place one, two,three, four.
Um, obviously there were fourguys on the team, three best

(16:43):
scores is what does the teamthing.
So they were gold team and thengold, silver, bronze on the
podium as well.
And the ladies did well.
I think they took silver, right?
Overall as a team.
Ladies product optics.

SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
And I'm trying to find the team results.
I just see the individualresults.

SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
Yeah.
So I didn't I haven't had timeto look at anything.
I'm I'm getting ready to go toArkansas tomorrow for the
section back.

SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
And the results I found are like a PDF document.
They're not like practice scorewhere I can filter by lady and
category.

SPEAKER_03 (17:18):
Yeah, yeah.
There's a whole bunch of photosup on the USPSA Facebook page.

SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
So Yeah.
I've seen them, but I can'tremember.
That was like yesterday orwhenever I looked at them.

SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
I flew out on Sunday and and skipped the awards
because I needed to be backbecause I gotta go to Arkansas
tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 (17:42):
Oh, are we ready to jump into the mailbag?

SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (17:48):
Oh, sure.
All right.
Well, we you know, it's it'slike this.
Troy leaves Troy leaves thecountry and the mail went crazy.
So that's fine.
Um so first one we uh we had ayou know, somebody wrote in long
story, um, but basically longand the short of it is the RO's

(18:11):
wrencher of his penalty andasked to see his own video and
ended up uh disqualifying him onit.
And we thought we would uhdiscuss the merits or not of
that.
And um so who wants to lead off?

SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
Yeah, so basically he was shooting a stage, kind of
had an X-shape shooting area,and he retreated uprange from
right to left.
And um, you know, for mewatching the video, to me it was
a very clear 180 break.

(18:50):
Um reload.

unknown (18:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
Um but the ROs didn't say anything.
Let him complete the course offire and then ask to see if they
so they can confirm the call.
Um I mean he he posted this onYouTube and it's like he
admitted that he really he wasstupid.
He he said I stupidly gave himthe video.

(19:14):
He's like, yeah, you don't haveto give the ROs the video.
Um personally, if the ROs needto make the call based on what
they see, um, and then the videocan be used to dispute it if he
doesn't agree with the call.
Right.
Right.
Um, but the RO should havecalled it right there, stopped
him, right?

(19:34):
Called the RM.
And then he could havepotentially used his video to
defend himself with the call andgot reshoot.

SPEAKER_03 (19:42):
All the video all the digital evidence rules are
in the appeals section ofthings.
Yeah.
They're not in the not in thethere's nothing in chapter 10
about you know, watch thecompetitor's video and issuing
procedurals or disqualificationsor whatever.
It's that's that's over in theappeals section.
So uh at this point, even Ithink I think that's a no.

SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
Oh yeah, don't do it.
It's bad form for the RO.
And even if the RO was wearing acamera, right?
You shouldn't be using it tomake calls, you should be using
it to support your calls.

SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Right.

unknown (20:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
Yeah.
And so it's like, you know, asan RO, you need to make the call
based on what you see at thatmoment.
Now, there are some people thatsay, well, if they don't stop
you right away, they can't DQyou.
And I've always said, well,sometimes there's a pause while
they're picking their jaw offthe ground after looking down
the barrel of your gun.
Or if it's an AD, they got to gothrough the rules in their head,

(20:41):
okay, is that some somethingthat we DQ for?
Like at the local match I shot acouple of weeks, my first shot
on one of the stages was alittle early, unexpected, but it
went into a target, right?
And they didn't stop me.
They didn't stop me, butafterwards they were like the we

(21:01):
were talking about the ROs.
I'm like, yeah.
And she goes, Well, it went inthe target, so it wasn't a DQ.
I'm like, well, it had to meetone of the DQ rules for an AD.
Unless it gone over it waswithin 10 feet of me, gone over
a berm, whatever, you know.
Um I mean, if it had been a reallegit DQ, I would stop myself.
Um, but at the same time, youknow, I I don't know.

(21:24):
You know, it might have takenthem, it takes sometimes it
takes you a few seconds as an ROto process what you saw and if
it violates one of the rules,right?
So, but they still they hadplenty of time to stop him
before they knew the course offire based on the video I saw.
Right.
So basically, yes, um, ROs, youneed to make your calls and not

(21:46):
rely on ask competitors afterthe course of fire is over to
see their video.

SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
That that had to be something of a shock though,
right?
It's like, can we see yourvideo?
And it's like, sure.

SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
And then they're like, well, and to be fair, this
was this guy's first majormatch, right?
So he wasn't thinking.

unknown (22:03):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
But you're I mean, you're right.
You as a range officer, you needto make a call based on what you
saw.

SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
And if you're if you're wrong, if you just erred,
you know, or were overlycautious or whatever, even if
you like in your case, Jody, ifif they had stopped you right
away and then figured out thatyou're didn't meet the AD
requirements, that's okay too,right?
Yeah, yeah.
So err on the side of cautionsometimes.
I I don't want people to thinkthat they should be yelling stop

(22:31):
every time they think they seesomething, but you know, right.
There's times when you shouldand times when you shouldn't.
And then yeah.
Uh, but yeah, requesting thevideo from the competitor is not
good.
And then, like you said, ifyou're if the RO is wearing a
camera, um, then that's forconfirmation.
It's not like, hey, stand righthere and let me look at my video

(22:52):
and see what you did.

SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
You know let me go to the replay booth and assess
the penalty.
You know, it's just like theNFL, right?
NFL uses video to, you know,they can't the call in the field
stands unless there's conclusivevideo evidence.

SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Right.
And it's basically the same wayfor us.

unknown (23:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
Yeah.
Right.
So I I bought a special pietimer this weekend and at the
match.
Uh it was they were the sponsorfor the for the world shoot.
And they have all kinds ofaccessories that come with it.
There's a flat digital roll-updisplay, it's very flexible,
waterproof.
You can zip tie it to anything,very bright in the daylight.

(23:31):
There's a camera that you canmount on a hat or whatever
that's slaves to the timer.
So when you hit the start buttonas a range officer, the camera
starts, right?
Cool.
Uh very, yeah, very coolfeature.
But if you're going to use it asa competitor, there's an app
too, and and you just turn it onwith the app, and then you you
have your first person point ofview video, just like any other

(23:52):
hat camp.

SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
But you know, for a range officer, that would be
awesome.
But I don't think that as arange master, if I went up there
and and you said, Oh, I stoppeduh John here, you know, and then
uh I looked at my video and thenI disqualified him.
I would be like, Well, you know,that's that's not what we how we

(24:14):
need to do that, right?
You need to make a call and thenwe'll use your video to confirm
it, right?
Or or unconfirm it, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (24:20):
Yeah, or overturn it.

SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's some errant useof video.

unknown (24:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:29):
The other thing that the rule says about that is that
you can't you can't stop a guyfor a foot fault, right?
Or give him a foot fault.
And then when you when he wantsto review his video, you can't
say, Oh, well, here you brokethe 182, so I'm gonna disqualify
you for that.
It's gotta be whatever is acall.
The call that's in question.

SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (24:46):
Yeah.
This is not like my quantitativeanalysis professor that if you
uh wanted to get a point back ona test, he would re-grade the
entire exam, and you might havea point back, but you'd lose
three or four others.
So we don't we don't do that.
Yeah.
So oh well.
Alrighty.
Um, you know, and this this isjust you know part of the

(25:08):
growing pains of digitalevidence, and you know, it's a
brand new thing to our sport.
Um we're we're still learningand it will mature.
Um, obviously, the technologybehind uh some of this is is
catching up with the sport, andwe're gonna we're gonna, you
know, from what Trey saw, and uhI think we're gonna start seeing

(25:29):
a lot more of that type ofstuff.
Uh so yeah, it'll be it'll beinteresting to see what the next
couple years bring.
Yep.
Moving on, speaking oftechnology, um, sometimes our
technology fails us um whentimers go bad.
Um and you know, sometimes itdoes happen that a competitor

(25:51):
gets an unrealistic time, andthat can be for all sorts of
different reasons.
Um the RO was inadvertentlycovering up the microphone on
the timer, or it was full ofwater because it was raining,
um, or they were holding itagainst their body when they
shouldn't have been, or umsometime you know, hit the start

(26:12):
button again after thiscompetitor had started and
completed part of the stage andreset the timer.
Um had that happen dead.
Yeah, had that exact thinghappen during the RO class this
weekend.
Um, as the person made thereload, the guy the student hit
the the go button again.
Yeah.
Um so they had a very quicktime.
Um and so that gave us anopportunity to talk about a

(26:36):
little bit more about timers andwhat happens when you have
something like that happen, andum, you know, what happens, you
know, uh unrealistic times.
Um, yeah, and the batteriesstart going a little flat.
Um they do some really crazythings.
Uh that's why for any timer thattakes a battery cell that you
can buy at the store, it's notrechargeable.

(26:58):
Um, my Motosoparende, which Ilearned from my mentor Jay
Warden, is figure out what kindof battery you need for the
timer and take new ones andreplace the battery with a known
you know it's brand new becauseyou just bought it.
Battery because you, you know,oh, we put a new battery in it.
Well, where'd that come from?

(27:19):
Oh, that coffee can over there.
You mean the one that says deadbatteries on the front of it?
Yeah.
Um yeah, I I stopped havingtimer troubles at big matches
when I started doing that.
It's like, okay, there we go.
I'm done.
Um, so anyway, in thisparticular question that we got,

(27:40):
uh Dylan, you know, actually hehimself questioned his time on
the stage, brought it up to theROs.
The ROs didn't want to doanything about it, didn't feel
they should do it or could.
I don't, we don't know.
Um, but um there's someramifications there.
So I thought maybe we'd kind ofdive into that a little bit

(28:01):
deeper because I don't thinkwe've talked about that part of
it before.

SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Right.
So errant times are always aquestionable thing.
Uh, one of the good tools youcan use is if you have a timer
that Bluetooth to the tablet,such as the AMG commanders or
these uh special pies.
Uh they record all of the shotsthat they pick up with splits
and everything like that.
So you can actually go back andlook.

(28:25):
Uh maybe it missed a shot, youknow, because maybe this guy's
shooting 0.2, 0.25 splits, andthen all of a sudden there's a
0.5 or 0.6 split.
That's not uh uh it's notcongruent with how he was
shooting the stage, right?
So uh, but it gets an accuratetime at the end and and reports

(28:47):
it, and then it'll show numberof shots, etc.
So there's all kinds of reasons,like you said, why that timer
might not pick up all of theshots, but the most important
one is the last shot.
Yep.
But when you have a time that,and typically it's a time that's
uh too short, right?
Because long times are oftencaught on the stage because uh

(29:08):
an ejected case hit the timer orthe RO bumped it.
You can look at it and say, youknow, wow, here's a here's a
three-second gap, right?
And all of the shots were mostof the shots were picked up, and
this looks like the real time,and then there's this huge gap.
Yeah, most of that can be fixed,but short times is what kind of
blows people's minds becausethey say there's no way he could

(29:30):
have shot it in that amount oftime.
So in this particular instance,the competitor did say, Yeah, I
I didn't shoot it in that time,but he was away from the match,
he was back home or somewhereelse, which we mentioned on this
before is one of the issues withmulti day matches where you can
shoot on Thursday, Friday, andthen the match is still going on
Saturday, Sunday.

(29:51):
Uh people leave.
So they determined that his timewas unrealistic and wanted him
to reshoot, but he he couldn't.
So they ended up zero.
Now, the exact procedure wouldhave been for the range master
or somebody to file athird-party arbitration and have
them go through that actualprocess so that they have some
documentation and some reasonsfor the time.

(30:13):
And I mentioned that to therange master in this case.
And then they ended up zeroinghis timeout, which would have
been the same process in athird-party R, but uh no
documentation, right?
Right.
So it should be done officially,should be done the right way.

(30:36):
And then that's kind of how ithappens.
So if the person can reshoot,then that's great, right?
But um we were talking beforethe podcast started about the
same sort of situation thathappened with one of our
revolver shooters at WorldShoot.
He shot the prematch, went backhome, and then people were
questioning his time on one ofthe stages.

(30:56):
Of course, he's 20 plus hoursaway, he can't come back.
I mean, the reshoot.
So they ended up doing thethird-party R.
The uh Rangemaster actuallyfiled it, which is legal, and
then they zeroed his time out.
He was kind of upset that histime got zeroed, and he said,
Well, I have a video, and andthey could just fudge it.
Uh, they're not gonna fudge it,and we don't either, right?

(31:18):
We're not gonna guess your timefrom a video or anything else.
You're gonna actually have toshoot it again, or we figured
out a way to get an accuratetime.
Yeah.
So these uh special pie timershave a stop button on them,
which is you might think isunusual, but they press it uh
when it looks like you'refinished so that it will not
pick up uh something thatstrikes it, or you bumping it,

(31:41):
or something.
It it actually stops that time.
It actually is still running,and there's a way to get any
extra shots after you press theshot the stop button, but most
people don't know how to use it.
Um so on a couple of occasions,the RO at the world shoot
accidentally pressed the stopbutton and it got, you know,
these guys got a phenomenallyshort time because it's they

(32:03):
quit uh it quit actuallydisplaying times.
It was still taking them, butyou know, it was like a 15 or 16
second run was recorded at sevenseconds, right?
Because they bumped the stopbutton.
So you got to be careful withit.
But I think it's a it's afeature that could be useful,
um, especially in a noisyenvironment or with very close
uh bays or or very loud guns,you know.

(32:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
Um could be useful, but um I don't know if if it's
absolutely necessary, but well,when we've seen inaccurate
times, it's usually because theRO, when the glass shots are
being fired, is not even lookingat the timer to make sure it's
picking up the shots.

SPEAKER_03 (32:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (32:44):
That's the biggest thing.
They're just there's holding thetimer out there, especially
PCCs.
PCCs are notorious, but youknow, you should always, always,
always, all shooters, everyshooter, be watching that timer,
make sure it's at leastchanging.
So you know you're getting thoselast shots.

SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
And if it's not, you need to get closer and try to
get it.
Right.
Um, and if you have any doubtthat that time's accurate, it
needs to be a reshoot.
Um, so I had an email over theweekend where the staff shot the
day before, right?
Then came back and worked.
And there were some competitorsquestioning one of the staff PCC

(33:22):
shooters time on the stage.
And uh the RM, you know, he madea call and he was just second
guessing himself.
And he was like, you know, helooked in the competitor app,
and this guy, not all the shotsgot picked up, but you know,
after talking with the ROs, theROs were like, no, I'm sure I
got the last shots, and theshots in the Pract Competitor
app corresponded with the lastarray, you know, the number of

(33:44):
shots and stuff.
So they ended up, and then so,you know, he did go talk to the
RO and be like, Well, there's noquestion about the time I'd like
you to reshoot, you know, andhe's like, Well, I didn't bring
my gear because I'm just workingtoday.
Right.
And so, you know, the RM decidedjust to keep the time.
But he was, you know, I thinksecond guessing himself.

(34:05):
I'm like, but they didn't reallyhave strong evidence that it was
a bad time.
Right.
Right.
Um, you know, and that's what Itold him.
I go, you gotta have evidenceit's a bad time.
Um, I also had someone askabout, you know, he thinks that,
you know, um he shoots PCC aswell, but he's had situations
where they didn't have accuratetimes.

(34:26):
And he's like, Well, I gotvideos, can't they just take
times from my video?
And I'm like, no, because therules say it has to be a time
measured by the timer.
One, right.
And then two, the thing withvideos is some of the
compression rates on some of thethose like cell phone cameras
and stuff use mess with the theaudio in relation to the video.

(34:50):
And so we can use the video tokind of get an approximate time.
So, like if it comes up, it's awhole 10 seconds different.
Okay, obviously there'ssomething wrong with one of the
back, you know, like the timer,or if it's like a second off or
something, that's really hard tojustify with the video because
of that compression and stuffthat goes on there.

(35:12):
So I don't know.
The biggest, like I said, mostof the time the timer not
picking up the shots is the ROnot paying attention.

SPEAKER_03 (35:20):
Yeah, right.
So Troy, is the special pie thatyou got the one with two
displays on it, or just thesingle display?

SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Um, the two display one is it's actually a uh an
accessory you plug into thebottom of it.

SPEAKER_03 (35:32):
Oh, is that what that is?

SPEAKER_00 (35:33):
Okay, yeah.
So when you're holding it out,you can actually see the
display, right?
Which a lot of people willcomment, yeah, all of our timers
have the display, the the thespeaker and the microphone all
on the same side, right?
Right.
So you can't it's makes it alittle tougher to actually look
at it.
But this one, you slide thispiece over the bottom of it, it

(35:54):
plugs into the USB port on it,and it's displaying times uh on
the bottom of the timer, whereasthe rest of it can be facing the
competitor, right?
I like that.
Yeah, I did too.
Um, I actually I especially likeit because the salesperson threw
it in on the on the deal.
So I'm gonna give you a gift.

SPEAKER_03 (36:14):
I was like, all right, yeah, because it looks
like well, the differencebetween the single display and
the double display, and then I'mlooking on Amazon.
Um uh Design Pi has a store onAmazon with all this stuff on
it.
Um, the difference is about 60bucks.

SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
So exactly, yeah, yeah, 60 bucks.
So it's um it the timer wasinexpensive.
She was given uh there were uhdiscounts for range officers
there.
So obviously I qualified, but umI got the camera and I wanted to
get a display, but she had soldout, so I'm just gonna order
one.
And uh, but the display wasreally, really nice because it

(36:53):
wasn't bulky, it wasn't hard,and it actually works uh on RF,
not Bluetooth.
So it will, if you're 40 yardsdownrange, the displays up
front, it's still reading andpicking up, right?
So it never disconnects.
And a Bluetooth is very robust.
It uh I think two or threeconnections you can make through

(37:14):
Bluetooth.
So you can do the tablet, youcould do something else, like uh
when we used to use theprinters, you can do you know,
the camera.
I think it bluetooth had acamera, I'm not sure, but um, so
it's it's pretty prettyinteresting.
I'm I'm interested to try itout.

SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
So damn it, Tory just cost me because I I kind of
have this timer problem.
And well, probably gonna have tobuy one of these now, but oh
well.

SPEAKER_02 (37:41):
Well, they're about the same about the same price as
all the other timers.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it's uh what I like about140 bucks for the special pie,
though.
That's yeah, interesting name.

SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Special pie.
Well, it's a Chinese company.
Yeah, um, probably didn't itlost a little bit in
translation.
I'm sure.
But it's uh it's it's it's veryeasy to program too, right?
So I find the commanders kind ofdifficult to set part times
accurately and and correctly,but this one is super easy to

(38:16):
do.
I mean, it's just right thereall on the front buttons, and it
says part time, yeah, put it in,and that's it, right?
So uh volume is adjustable aswell as the frequency of the
start signal, right?
So you can make it a lowerfrequency, you can make it a
higher frequency.
For all of you, they have alight chrono that you can attach
a threat to it, light basedchrono.

(38:37):
It has a chronograph, yeah.
Yeah, they were using thatchronograph at at World Street.
So it seemed to work well.
I mean, I I didn't get a lot ofcomplaints of of anybody that
went to chronograph.

SPEAKER_03 (38:53):
So do they have it in a box?

SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
No, no, just sitting out there interesting.
But chronograph was aninteresting thing there as well
because they if you have if youbuy match ammunition, if you buy
the official match ammunition,you don't have to go to
chronograph, you don't have toshoot at chronograph, but you do
have to go and present your uhreceipt, right?

(39:17):
Right.
So people were trooping in andout of there, and they were
pulling bullets and everything,and every once in a while they
pull one and it would comeflying out.
Um let's go back to the videothough at uh World Shoot because
a lot of these bays were uh wereenclosed, right?
They were they were bricked in.

(39:38):
Um in a couple of the areas,they were the areas were very,
very tight, and the bays weresmaller, but they had a brick
wall, okay, and a and anentrance to the thing.
So as tight as they were, theyweren't letting anybody in there
except the competitor and theROs while that one person was
shooting.
So it was difficult for a lot ofpeople to get video, and they

(40:00):
were also pretty stingy witheven the wide open bays as to
who could go down, and uh therewas no way you were gonna follow
somebody down like we commonlydo here, where we say stay
behind the the last RO on astage and you know you'll be
fine.
Uh yeah, there was none of that.
So I don't know if that was justby design or by because you

(40:21):
couldn't get into smaller baysin the in certain areas that
they didn't let people do it inthe bigger bays.
Um, but it was kind of asticking point for a lot of a
lot of competitors, not justours.
It's like they won't even let meget in there to do a video.
So there was a lot ofover-the-wall shots, right?
Um, a lot of cameras on a stickkind of thing.

unknown (40:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
Um, but yeah, there was no following anybody down
through the course of fire ifyou were if you were just taking
cell phone video.
So um that was one of the thingsthat in the past, and uh for the
PCC world shoot in Thailand, anduh I'm sorry, in the Czech
Republic, they did it, they letpeople kind of approach on the
stage.
They wouldn't let you go too fardown, but they would let you get

(41:04):
in there, you know.
But this was kind of different,different rules on the on the
photographers, on thevideographers, and on people
just using cell phones to tocatch competitive video.

SPEAKER_03 (41:17):
So yeah, well, that kind of walks us into the next
question a little bit.
Uh got some feedback um from ashooter saying that uh while
that he saw an instance wherewhile the active shooter on the
stage was still shooting, hefound somebody walking already
on the stage and walking thiswhat the stage while it was

(41:40):
actively being shot.
Um and he was kind of upsetabout that.
And I could certainly see thatthat's not necessarily a great
idea.
Um not, you know, I don't knowwhat I know what y'all think.

SPEAKER_00 (41:57):
I think it's kind of poor stage etiquette.
Um, I think it's also kind of ifthis guy's report was accurate
that that the competitor, whenhe said, hey, you shouldn't be
here, or whatever he said tohim, um, you know, kind of back
talked him.
Um I don't think that'sappropriate either.
I mean, once that competitorfinishes shooting and the range

(42:20):
is called clear, then you canhave your walkthrough if you're
the on-deck person.
Um, but you are putting yourselfin a bad spot if you're out
there.
Hey, you can distract the theROs because they're concerned
about you being out there.
And second, if that competitordecides to come back up range
for any reason, you could be theguy that ends up getting a gun
pointed at him because you'renot paying attention, right?

(42:43):
Um, so yeah, it's it's just oneof those things that you know,
maybe if you're a competitorthat does that, you might want
to, you know, just freaking stopit, right?

SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
Well this reminds me of it was the 2018 area one,
right?
I was RM and that was the matchwe had all the instructors as
ROs on stage as mentoring CEOs,right?
Yeah, and so I'm sitting thereas RO and I hear George, uh hi
George, uh talking with acompetitor.
And I so I just kind of amsitting there in case I am
needed.
And basically the guy was like,Well, I'm gonna do what I want

(43:17):
until you show me the rule book.
I can't do that.
And so they talk for a littlewhile longer, and then the guy
stalks off, and I'm like, Hey,George, what was that all about?
And he's like, Oh, he was likepoaching other people's
walkthrough time, right?
He wasn't the on-deck shooter.
And George politely asked him tostop doing it, and the guy was
contesting that unless there'ssomething in the rule book that

(43:37):
says he can't do it, he can doit.
And it kind of goes, I knowwe've talked about, you know,
match etiquette before.
Yeah, it's not a rule, but it'slike general etiquette.

unknown (43:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:50):
Yeah, one of your nationals, uh, the guy who shot,
I think, right after me, was aleft-handed shooter, right?
And he kept poaching mywalkthrough time.
And I finally said something tohim.
He goes, Well, it's not fairbecause I'm a lefty and you guys
are always in my way.
But I he messed me up on severalof my stage plans because I was
so ticked off.

SPEAKER_01 (44:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Right.
That I had to keep fighting himfor my walkthrough times.
And then after I, you know, saidsomething to him, he kind of
backed off and quit doing it.
But that annoys me to no end.

SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
Now, if I've done my walkthrough and stepped out of
the stage, knock yourself out.
But you know, it's kind of likethere's these people who are
just so obsessed with gettingevery minute of walkthrough time
they can.

SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Um, yeah, I mean, bottom line, everybody gets a
walkthrough period when theyread the stage brief, and then
as the on-deck shooter, you'reentitled to that walkthrough.
Nobody else should be out therepoaching.
You don't get it to, yeah,right?
You don't get to walk every timethat guy's finished shooting
because you haven't submittedyour stage plan or you're so
obsessive compulsive, you gottawalk it too many times.

SPEAKER_02 (44:57):
You're supposed to be on helping reset.

SPEAKER_00 (44:59):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (45:00):
Yeah, yeah.
If you want to see this pageagain, do it while you're
taping.

SPEAKER_02 (45:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Sometimes as I'm walking out totape, I'll stop in the shooting
position and kind of gander.
Oh, there's a target there thatI didn't see.
And then go walk out and tapetargets.

SPEAKER_03 (45:15):
With your dot with your with your dot on your tape
gun.

SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
No, but I got I do have a I got a little attachment
for my tape gun now that holdswhite and black pasters.

SPEAKER_03 (45:25):
So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 (45:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (45:27):
So anyway.
All right.
Well, moving on.
Um had a quite the discussion uhregarding uh creeping and false
start and in steel challenge.
The difference of you know,everybody, if you don't, if you
don't realize in USPSA, we trainall of our ROs to vary their

(45:51):
cadence um between standby andthe start signal.
And in Steel Challenge, we dothe tradition, and this goes
back to when Mike and Mike go onSteel Challenge.
Um, the tradition has been touse the same cadence with every
with a shooter on all theirstrings.
You can vary it betweenshooters.
Um, most people, I don't think,do, but uh, you know, it's for

(46:14):
the strings for that shooter, itshould be the same cadence.
And that's very different thanUSPSA.
It does lend itself to beingjumped for lack of a better
term.
Um, so let's maybe talk a littlebit about the discussion that we
all had about it and what wecan't can't finally settle on.

SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
Well, since we can't change the steel challenge rules
to vary the paid start signal,um it's gonna have to it's you
know it's basically an RO'scall, right?
As the RO, you control the beep,and if they're moving before you
hit the beep, it's a falsestart.
If they have to be moving at thebeep, well then it's a it's

(46:59):
creeping.
But the guy was questioningbecause he's had people,
competitors who stoppedthemselves and say they crept
and they needed restart it, andwas asking if that's legal.
And the thing is, well, it'sgonna be up to the RO to
determine that, right?
If the RO says you're creeping,well, you just stopped yourself.

(47:21):
Um if the RO agrees it's a falsestart, it's a false start.
So I I think the main the mainpoint of the email was it's hard
to determine.
I've I've every time I've talkedtalked to Steel Challenge
people, you know, because SteelChallenge basically encourages
you to creep or try to jump thestart signal.
This is a very hard thing forthem to come to terms with.

(47:44):
And you know, we did update thethe definitions of those
thinking that would solve it.
I don't think it has.
Right, right.
Um the steel challenge rules doneed some probably clarification
about what happens if acompetitor stops themselves when
they feel they were creeping andthey weren't.
Um but it's it's basically it'sgonna be a call of the RO.

SPEAKER_00 (48:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (48:09):
You know?

SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
So the the difference in the USPSA rules
about or definitions of falsestart is is different from the
steel challenge one, right?
So USPSA a false start is whenyou actually make your attempt
at the course, draw your gun, oreven fire shots without the
timer going off.
Uh but in steel challenge, thefalse start is movement prior to

(48:32):
the start signal, right?
And that's something the ROneeds to be in control of and
say, hey, stop, quit moving, yougo back to are you ready and go
over.
Creeping is movement at thestart signal, and that's the
same definition as in the SPSA.
And so creeping is a penaltything, and so if you're moving

(48:53):
at the start signal, right?
And then you don't go ahead andshoot and take your three-second
penalty, you self-stop.
Um, in my opinion, you're at therisk of a 30-second penalty
because you didn't hit that stopplate.
Yep.
And you're also at risk if youdo it a lot, you're at risk of a
10-6-1 DQ, because essentiallyit's cheap, right?

SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:16):
Trying to trying to get a restart when you're
actually creeping and would haveearned a penalty if you shot.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (49:23):
So I don't think it's that common, but um
basically if anyone's do ifanyone's doing this a lot, you
need to call the range masterand get them involved.

SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Right.
And yeah, and and the this thesame cadence thing does uh sort
of encourage people toanticipate your start signal,
but still challenges a game ofrhythm and muscle memory, and
it's been that way since thebeginning of the game, and
that's how people do it, right?
Yeah, so um I think there's justa lot more movement prior than

(49:55):
you do creeping, I think.

SPEAKER_02 (49:57):
I think there's just a lot of people who are, you
know, it kind of hurts when yousee those young kids with those
like their four, you know, theirtotal time for the stage is like
as much as your one string.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (50:11):
There's not time for the stage off your draw.

SPEAKER_00 (50:15):
Yeah, you hear you hear a time and you're like,
yeah, like Kevin said, it'slike, was that for the stage?
No, that was for the match.

SPEAKER_03 (50:27):
Yeah, it's it's it's just you know, it's it's
wonderfully young and have allthat fast witch fiber sitting
there ready to rock and roll foryou.

SPEAKER_01 (50:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (50:37):
Yeah, really good reflexes.

SPEAKER_02 (50:39):
Um but you know um that's I mean, you know, so this
is the thing, is like if ifthere's steel challenge people
who are listening to the podcastand you have you have comments
about creeping a false start,let us know.
I mean, the rules can beupdated, but we thought, you

(51:02):
know, this was taken to theSteel Challenge committee and
everything, and they thoughtthat this would clarify things,
but maybe it didn't.

SPEAKER_00 (51:09):
Yep.
Um, so like you mentioned, Jody,I mean the the RO needs to be in
charge, you need to be watchingwhat's going on.
Um, and you need to anticipatewhat that competitor may be
doing if he's starting to move alittle bit, also just don't hit
the start button, right?
Yeah, that's how you avoid thewhole creeping issue is you
don't start them, tell them,hey, you're moving, keep still,

(51:32):
start back, do all that stuff,right?

SPEAKER_02 (51:34):
Go back to R you ready.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:37):
Be observant, be in control, be it, be the guy in
charge there, and don't justcome, you know, continue to
stomp your foot and hit thebutton.
Like I've seen a lot of peopledo that.
That's their rhythm, right?
It's like one pump of the hand,one stomp of the foot, and then
they hit the button, you know.
And it's I guess it's like adrummer in a band or something.
They gotta have a foot movementin it.

(52:00):
It is a good one.

SPEAKER_02 (52:00):
Well, just a warning for people who do do that.
Right.
Sometimes with the dependingwhere the sun is, the competitor
can see your shadow.
Yeah.
And they are gonna be watchingfor it and jumping you.

SPEAKER_03 (52:15):
Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 (52:16):
Without courage anticipation, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (52:21):
So it's like I tell them like my class this weekend,
and you know, it's like I've runtens of thousands of shooters,
and I've never given a creepingpenalty.
And they say, Well, how do youdo that?
I said, You just don't startthem.
Yeah, you just let them fall outof the box or whatever they're
gonna do.
And you know, then then thatthen I show them the you know,

(52:43):
hold still George video.
Yeah, and uh, you know differentGeorge, yeah, different George,
but uh um must be somethingabout George's.

SPEAKER_00 (52:52):
Uh that's my George, he lives down here by me.

SPEAKER_03 (52:54):
Oh, isn't it?
Okay, yeah.
Uh George had a bad day at thatmatch, if that was all right.
Um, you know, that's but that'sI mean, that's a great video
because it really clearly showsthe difference uh between false
start and creeping with thosetwo videos.
But uh, yeah, so I was tellingyou if you just never hit the

(53:14):
button, you'll never have togive a creeping penalty if you
use a time running instant andyou're paying attention.
Yep.
That's the key.

SPEAKER_01 (53:22):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (53:24):
All right, moving on.
Um got several questions aboutthis.
I I'm not sure why people aretrying to go back to no optics,
but whatever.
Um got some questions from folksthat are going, hey, if I decide
to take the optic off my handgunum and shoot just in production,

(53:44):
for for instance, um, do I haveto put in a plate to fill in the
the gap on on the slide?
Um or or not.
And I think it kind of dependson division.

SPEAKER_02 (53:57):
Yes.
So it used to be for productionyou had to have the plate back
on.
But we when we allowed foraftermarket slides, we took away
that provision, and you canactually lighten your slides
now.
Yeah.
So for production, but I thinkthe guy that asked was single
stack, he maybe was to play inthe L10.

SPEAKER_01 (54:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:20):
Um, and the problem with single stack, it doesn't
really say, but lightening yourslide is prohibited in in single
stack.
So we told him you had to put aplate on if he took the object
off.
I think that's what we told him,right?

SPEAKER_00 (54:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:37):
It looks better with the plate back on it, too.

SPEAKER_02 (54:40):
Well, yeah, it kind of looks they're kind of ugly
with no plate back on there.
But but production, it used tobe a rule in production, right?
But we got rid of it.

SPEAKER_03 (54:50):
So yeah, and obviously in limited, limited
10, open limited optics.
Yeah, knock yourself out, havefun.
Yeah, we don't care for theirseither.
Yeah, you know, you want to millfor an optic on the side of the
slide and do a gangster styleand have one on top so you can
do it normally.
Hey, just you know, knockyourself out.

SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
I tell you about the guy a couple years ago at Area
One that had the slide racker, aslide racker.
It was he was shooting open.
He had a slide racker in thefront dovetail for the front
sight.

SPEAKER_03 (55:21):
I've seen those, yeah.
Yeah, well, his I don't think itlasted the match, so it would
drive me absolutely crazy to seethat up there reciprocating
though.

SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
Oh yeah, yeah, it would be it'd be like And I
would be catching it oneverything.
Yeah, yeah.
It was the first time I'd seenthat, it was interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (55:38):
Anyway, I digress.
Kind of like the the revolvershooters that show up at those
huge buckhorn front sights andthen leave them sticking in the
frame of a port.

unknown (55:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:50):
Speaking of which, you were talking about people
going back to to Iron Slight.
So classic is in IpsyC is singlestack in USPSA, right?

unknown (56:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:01):
So one of our prematched competitors from the
US published a picture.
It was a still taken from thevideo of his hat cam of the uh
probably the front inch of hisslide just blowing completely
off the gun right in the middleof a stage.
Damn.
And he was like, you know, hegoes, modified 1911 with uh with

(56:24):
three sight blockers for sale.
And the whole front end came offit, man.
And I sent I sent that pictureback to Mara.
I was like, look at this, youknow.
She goes, What am I looking at?
I said, Well, the front end of a1911 flying off in the middle of
the stakes.
She's like, oops.

SPEAKER_03 (56:42):
Yeah, hopefully you had a backup.

SPEAKER_00 (56:45):
He did, but um I was like, Hey, did you get your gun
fixed?
He's like, Hell no, man.
The thing blew apart.
JB Weld, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 (56:54):
Yeah, JB Weld, it'd be fine.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (56:58):
So yeah, I mean, it was it was bushing and um and
everything came right off thetop.
The whole thing came off.
So it's kind of a catastrophicfailure.
It's one of those things like,well, that was a little crack up
there, but it'd be all right.

SPEAKER_02 (57:13):
Until it becomes a big crack, I'm not gonna worry.

SPEAKER_00 (57:15):
Well, you know, an IPSC in classic, you have to
have stirrup cuts, right?

SPEAKER_01 (57:20):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:20):
And I was like, maybe he got a little too
aggressive making the stirrupcuts.

SPEAKER_03 (57:25):
Could be could be.
Or he didn't round the cornersany these square square spots.
Nope, nope, that those willfracture every freaking time.

SPEAKER_02 (57:34):
Mr.
Drumell did a bad job.

SPEAKER_00 (57:36):
Yeah, it was that interesting picture.
Yeah, well, I mean, we'relaughing about it now, and he
was a couple days later, but hewasn't laughing when it
happened.

SPEAKER_02 (57:44):
So I'm sure he wasn't, no.

SPEAKER_03 (57:47):
Yeah, that would ruin your day.
Um, every once in a while we getsomebody who writes in and talk,
asks us about, you know, I'm ina wheelchair, can I shoot your
sport?
Um, or variations on that theme.
And the answer to that is yes.
And it's Steel Challenge itselfreally lends itself to folks in

(58:09):
uh using wheelchairs or otherassistive, you know, devices, uh
walkers, rollators, crutches,whatever.
Um, I know a number of peoplethat have shot Steel Challenge
on crutches.
Um you know, it's outer limitsgets a little interesting, but

(58:30):
um, you can always just take thepenalty and just stay in the in
the box.
But um so but yeah, the answeris yes.
And even in USPSA, um we makeallowances for folks that are
using you know their mobilitylimited so that they can enjoy
the sport.
So it's a good idea to let theuh club that you're gonna go
shoot at know that you're comingand know that you're in a chair

(58:54):
so they can be prepared for you.
Um especially for USPSA.
Yeah, especially for USPSA.
For steel challenge, not quiteas much, but you know, even in
Steel Challenge, you may runinto ranges that have pretty
deep gravel.
Um, and you may not be able toroll um in that.
And you know, but a lot ofplaces also have ways around

(59:17):
that.
You know, they can throw down apiece of plywood and let you
roll around on that or or whathave you.
So um just you know, talk withthe the club that you're gonna
go shoot at before you go andand get their take on things,
let them know you're coming.
Um most of all of them I knowabout um are more than happy to
uh make accommodations and andlet you go.

(59:37):
You might always end up beingthe last shooter on a stage,
especially if they have to dosomething to the stage to allow
you to shoot it.
Um so, but you know, just youknow, come on out and uh just be
aware we are not going to letyou draw your handgun from your
lap.
Um the chances of having anegligent discharge into your

(59:58):
leg are far too high for that.
So you will need to use aholster of some sort, but we do
allow you to mount your holsterto the frame of your wheelchair
or your rollator or, you know,what have you.
Um, so yeah, it's there's lotsof allowances there um to the
point where and we have therules allow for people to help
push your your conveyance aroundthe range, um, pick it up and

(01:00:21):
carry it if they have to.
So, you know, it's we we doeverything we can to help
everybody shoot the sport.
Um, got an interesting commentfrom a major match that happened
in the last couple weeks.
Um and the the person that wrotein was going out hey, I was at

(01:00:45):
this match, and chronograph wasnot weighing bullets, and they
were just taking the weight asstated, is that legit?
So let's talk about weighingbullets at Chronograph.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:58):
Well, first I want to clarify apparently what
happened is the scale was didn'tmake it to the range that day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:05):
It happened.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:05):
So they did it for one day.
Um, and the person was justasking me if this was was
allowed, and I pointed him tothe appendix where it says if a
scale is not available orbroken, chronograph can use
declared bullet weights.
Um but you know if you do dochronograph, don't half-ass it.

(01:01:29):
Um you know, scales, you can getbattery powered scales, you can
get you can have solar, youknow, get a uh jackery.
Yeah, get a jackery and youknow, whatever.
Um just make sure it's it can bechecked with you have
calibration ways to check it.
Um but if you're gonna dochrono, you know, some people
are like, well, we just measurethe velocities and bullet
weights.
We don't do the equipment checkpart of it.

(01:01:51):
It doesn't take long to do theequipment check.
Um you know, working on achronograph endorsement will
explain all this and why we doit.
But um should yes, chronographsshould be weighing bullets, but
there is an allowance in casesomething happens like the scale
is broken or got forgotten.
Um that they don't have to.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:13):
Yeah.
So yeah, in the case of scales,a chronograph, one is none, two
is one, have as many as you canget.
I mean, they're cheap.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:22):
Um well, and also just point out you like for this
gun scale, you need somethinglike a postal scale.
Yes, right.
Um, and then you need adifferent scale for the bullet
weight.
Yeah.
A lot of us have neuro reloadingbenches that we can use.
They're perfect for bulletweight, but yeah, you do need
two different scales becausethat's I mean, even vastly

(01:02:44):
different weight.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:45):
Even the little fold-up drug dealer scales that
you can buy on Amazon for 15, 20bucks um are amazingly accurate
for what they are.
And um, I mean, I have aanalytical balance, uh, you
know, good analytical scale umhooked up to my powder, my

(01:03:06):
computerized powder measure forloading PRS ammo.
And I've compared that to allthe digital scales in the house,
including my kitchen state scaleI used to bake bread with.
And you know, they aren'tperfect, but they're close
enough.
And you know, they're they'rethey're darn good now.
Not all kitchen scales willweigh in grains.

(01:03:27):
So just be be advised.
You may you may you may have tolearn what that conversion is,
but um, you know, that's youknow, the the one I my chick
kitchen scale does not dograins, but uh my little drug
dealer scale does.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:42):
Well, I mean, is it like benefit to the cheap the
cheaper scales?
Is it benefit to the shooter?
Or it adds a little extra weightto the bullet?
Because if it's taking weightoff the bullet, then they might
not like it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:55):
Um I all mine weighed heavy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:58):
As long as it's you know, yeah, and and I was
checking them.
I was checking him with checkweights against my electrical
balance and and the the checkweights are a known Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
You buy those as a as a knownweight, and then you know, so
and then my analytical balanceis calibrated with the check

(01:04:20):
weights.
So I mean, yeah, it's all it'snot just you know, and yes, you
can do it if you have a superaccurate way of measuring water,
and but nobody needs to do that.
We all had to do that when wetook organisation.
Let's not make it complicated,Kevin.
Yeah, we all did that when wetook organic chemistry.
You don't need to do that again,right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:43):
So, but yeah.
So an interesting, interestingthing about that is you know, a
lot of people go to chronographand and they'll you know,
they'll have a 124-grain bulletand they'll weigh in at 123.8 or
123.9, and they're you know,they're gonna, I'm calling my
bullet guy.
Well, manufacturing challengesare probably not so precise, so
you're gonna expect a template.

(01:05:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes they're a littleheavy, right?
So yeah, um, depends on who madeit, how they made it, all that
stuff, what it's coated with.
So sometimes when they pull abullet, they pull a little
coating off.
Um, and so it weighs a littlelight.
So an interesting thing is thatIPSC had a minimum bullet weight
of 115 grains for PCCs, right?

(01:05:28):
And they put it in there becausethey were concerned about um too
much velocity damage and steel.
Right.
So, like you couldn't shoot ahundred grain or a 90 grain at
whatever speed it had to go tomake minor.
Um, when that popped up in therules committee, I argued about
it and said you need sometolerance on the low side

(01:05:50):
because, like I just mentioned,manufacturing uh differences,
pulling some coating off andeverything, and they were
absolutely adamant it had to bea floor of 115.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:00):
Oh, they did.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:01):
Oh, wow.
So at the R Ipsey Nationals thisyear, there were two
competitors, PCC competitors,they weighed in at 114.9, right?
Yeah, so you can't just for therules.
I couldn't just say, well, look,that's close enough.
Uh, but we did pull anotherbullet and weigh it, and they
and they made weight, okay.
So uh that was fine.

(01:06:23):
Uh, but at the at the generalassembly, one of the rules
proposals that they voted on wasto lower that to 113 grains.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:31):
There you go.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:32):
And that that actually passed.
Right.
Um, I know several people on therules committee were probably
gritting their teeth about itbecause they were adamant that
it had to be a minimum of 115.
And but if if you show up with115s, which is a common PCC
bullet, yeah, um, and it goes114.9, you by the old rule, you

(01:06:52):
couldn't shoot them, right?
Yeah, it was unsafe ammunition,and it was just kind of
ridiculous, right?
Uh that you know, I said, youknow, two grain, two grains
isn't gonna make any differencein impact on a piece of steel,
they're not gonna hyperloadthat, you know.
Yeah, um, so anyway, it did passat the assembly, and it passed

(01:07:12):
by a pretty large margin,actually.
So um a little bit of commonsense prevailed, I think, and
you know, a little bit of abreak for the competitor there.
But you know, if you go tochronograph and they weigh your
bullet and it's a little lightor it's a lot light, um, and
then you're not making powerfactor, then sometimes rather

(01:07:33):
than shooting that last one, youmight want to weigh it.
Yeah.
You can't grab a heavier bullet,you know.
Right.
Yes.
But also as a competitor, youmight want to ask them to
recalibrate their scale, and andthey certainly should do that,
right?
Check weight it and do all thatto make sure that it's weighing
right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:49):
So if you don't know where to get check weights,
Amazon is your friend.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:58):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:58):
Um Amazon.
Pretty much, pretty much.
And and they're cheap.
Um you need a pretty heavy youknow, hefty one to for your gun
scale, and you know, one foryour you know, for your your
bullet scale, depending on youknow, some scales have a
defined, like my Dylan scale hastwo different check weights um

(01:08:23):
that you use to define thecurve.
Um, and it's very repeatable andvery accurate.
Um, and but standard scales,some scales you can't even
calibrate them, but you put thecheck weight on and go, oh, it
weighs 0.01.
We just know we have to manuallymanually calibrate it.
Yeah.

(01:08:44):
Okay, next question.
Um Got somebody wrote in andsaid, What do you do about
somebody a guy shot a steelplate under a wall?
Um that so the wall, you know,there's a there's a gap under
the wall, and he shot a steelplate far too close um by
shooting under the wall.
What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:03):
Oh, so this is a follow-up to last month's
question of the month.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:08):
Where we had the popper that was visible under a
wall and a competitor forgotthere was a wall there and shot
it, right?
Um and you know, so and this isso let's say it's that situation
that the poppers at an unsafedistance.
They're supposed to be behind awall.

(01:09:29):
That's solid.
It goes from ground to infinity.
So I mean, obviously that'ssomething that needs to be
fixed.
Um, but they were asking, dothey DQ the competitor?
And I'm like, it was ahypothetical just based on the
question of the month.
And probably what I would do isdeclare forbidden action.

(01:09:49):
Um but well, that'd be oneoption.
So no one does it again, the guygets a reshoot.
Um, because it's a stage designissue, because that wall is
supposed to be it's supposed tobe a solid wall.

unknown (01:09:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:00):
But the target was just tempting the guy shot at
it.
Now, if someone shot at itintentionally to game a reshoot,
well, there's a different rulefor that.
But you know, probably eitheryou need to fix it by putting a
vision bearer, a bear, a barrelstack, another wall, piece of
wall, cardboard refrigeratorbox.
He has something to prevent itso it can't be seen.
If you can't do that, there'sthe forbidden action option.

(01:10:22):
Um, like I said, if it wassomeone intentionally doing it,
well, then 106-1 comes intoplay.
But that's why it's important.
Like, you know, I know that I'veset up uh been arm at matches
where they have walls like thatthat were in the picture.
And there are these poppers thatare sitting there and they were
so tempting.
And so I was making them putbarrels in front of them, right?

(01:10:44):
And they were just all gripingand like, why are we doing that?
I'm like, take away anypotential issues.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:50):
Right.
You know, as soon as you thinknobody will do that, someone's
gonna do it.
The second or the third shooterwill do it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:56):
And you know, it's very tempting that you know,
mini popper under a wall that'sgot a big gap under the bottom.
It's like your brain's not yourbrain just sees the target.
It doesn't say, well, that'ssupposed to be uh behind it,
it's behind a invisibletransparent wall.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:10):
That's right, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:12):
So um basically be a little more smart with your
stage design, then it won'thappen.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:16):
Yeah, well, that's a much more of a stage setup issue
than design, but yeah.
Well, yeah, that's what I meant.
Yes, setup, yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Um, then we got an interestingquestion about uh, you know,
somebody saw competitors usingspelling salts at a USPSA match,
and what was our stance on that?
And that led into a deep diveinto Wada.

(01:11:40):
Um and ammonia-based spellingsalts are not banned by Wada.
I the everything I I found anumber of references saying that
the NFL has banned them.
And then I watched several placekickers were using ammonia.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:57):
I saw the Seahawks kicker taking a whiff.
And I was like, oh look.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:02):
It doesn't look like it's that banned.
So I'm not really or maybe it'sonly banned from linemen.
I don't know.
Anyway, uh long story short,here, folks, is uh at this point
in time, Wada has not banned it,USPSA has not banned it.
Um I will caution those folksthat are going, oh gee, that
sounds good.
That long-term use of ammoniainhalants does come with the

(01:12:26):
price, like anything else youput in your body and your lungs.
Uh it's your choice.
You make the decision, deal withconsequences.
So um, but for now, that's thatis those that is allowed.
Um I I live close to anagricultural facility.
I get doses of ammonia in afairly regular research lab to

(01:12:50):
do it.
I don't I don't need to be doingthat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:54):
Not up on my list of things to inhale willingly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:58):
No, right right up there with hyper acetic acid.
Yeah.
Um and chlorine, chloroform,that's a good one, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:07):
And phenol.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:08):
Cyanide.
Uh I used to work in ahemoglobin lab, and we had
cyanide all over the place.
And you got, you know, everybodywould be talking about the
smell, and it's like that's whenI learned I can't actually smell
cyanide.
So does it smell like almonds?
It's not supposed to smell like.
Yeah, it doesn't have a smell tome.
Um, so I guess if you're lookingto off me, it's free to go.

(01:13:32):
Um, I won't ever smell itcoming.
Um then somebody wrote in andasked, well, can I use, you
know, does straight edge, do Ihave to use an overlay?
Can I use something else as astraight edge?
And um, yeah.
Um I've seen I used I use hotel,I teach classes, you know, to

(01:13:54):
use the hotel room keys.
Um if you'd only if you onlyhave one overlay or if you want
an opaque overlay or an opaquestraight edge, hotel room keys
work great.
Um$100 bills, uh, you know,whatever you've got that has a
straight edge on it works justfine.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:12):
It has to be crisp, new$100 bills to work
effectively.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:15):
Well, yeah, yeah, and then you need to test it by
spending it later, right?
You gotta do the security checkwith the strip.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:24):
I mean, it's bet it's better when it's not your
$100 bill.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:27):
Well, it's I was I was actually I was gay, I was
straight edging uh competitor'shit at a national's one year,
and and I went, Oh, I need astraight edge, and about that
fast the guy's hundred dollarbills that he was holding on to
in case he needed to file an arbappeared.
Um, and I just kind of looked athim and said, Yeah, no, I'm not
such a mess.

(01:14:48):
But uh, because somebody wouldget a picture of that and you
know where it would end up.
But um hey, we haven't had agood controversy anymore.
Not in hours.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:58):
Shut your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:00):
Not in hours.
Um so anyway, um, and then wehad this rash of my gun isn't on
the list.
How come my gun isn't on thelist?
Um, and I think there were twoor three of them that if you
read the fine print at the topof the list of all the guns, the
fine print read underneath theyou know, the manufacturer the

(01:15:24):
for instance, that was one ofthem.
Um, it yeah, all the guns inthat model line are in.
Uh, we just didn't list themeach individually.
Uh so if you're looking at thegun list and you're trying to
decide if your gun's in there ornot, read the fine print.
Um, you know, if it's if it issome subset model of the XYZ

(01:15:47):
gun, um and the thing says allthe subs are in, you're in.
Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:54):
Yeah, just okay.
One thing people don't realizesingle action only guns.
Yeah, so 2011s, 1911s.
Any other single action onlygun, not allowed production
carry office.
Right, they're never gonna beyou're never gonna find your
staccatos on the list.
Um, another thing is if it's agun that is based on this gun

(01:16:18):
that's on the list, that doesn'tcount either.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:22):
Because it's an individual gun that's gotta get
submitted and very gotta be thesame kind of family, variations
of the same gun or okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:30):
Yeah, not a different brand.
Well, not a different brandthat's based on this brand.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:34):
In one of the one of the instances, it was a one of
the Glock clones.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:38):
Um, that wasn't on the list.
And um, I didn't even realizethat.
And then I went and looked atthem and I went, hey, that looks
like a Glock.
Um, you know, so you know, inthat case, then the manufacturer
needs to submit it um to be forconsideration and be added to
the list.
You know, there's some paperworkyou have to fill out.

(01:16:59):
And uh, as we've covered before,it has to be the manufacturer,
you don't get to do it.
Um, that's not you you don't getto send, you know, arranged, you
know, send your gun to Troy andsay, hey, put my gun on the
list.
No, that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:14):
So I get a couple like that every year.
Yeah.
The other question we get is youknow, I don't see my uh staccato
on the list, but you know, I Iwant to shoot in limited, is
illegal.
It's like, look, the only listwe maintain is for production
and kari optics, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:32):
So we don't list anything else.
There's no approved guns foropen, limited, limited 10,
revolver, plastic, uh singlestack.
They have to have certaincharacteristics in single stack,
but there's no list, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:45):
Can you imagine how long that freaking list would
be?

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:48):
Oh, it would be crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:50):
Well, I I could people have been building these
things in their garage for 50years.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:56):
Yeah.
All your guns, all guns exceptthis one are allowed.
That would be the easiest way todo it.
But uh IPSC has the same sort oflist and and they have the same
sort of criteria and they havethe same arguments.
Uh they put a couple guns on ouron their list that are not on
ours because uh for whateverreason they did it.

(01:18:18):
Um without naming names, they'rethey're basically single action
guns that are on the IPSCproduction list, yeah.
Uh, but not on ours, right?
Because they are indeed singleaction.
The single action is describedby the manufacturer.
So um, but other than that, Imean, paperwork is we say

(01:18:39):
paperwork, it's an electronicform.
And then the gun gets submittedfor for evaluation and testing,
and it's returned to themanufacturer from my FFL.
And all I do is make sure itfits the box, make sure the
trigger is the action is exactlyas described, and you know,
there's no other disqualifyingthings on the gun, and it gets

(01:19:02):
sent back to the manufacturer.
So it's a pretty simple process,just a form that's available on
the webpage, and you know, butyou can't send it in and and
where it says um you know,relationship or or you know,
what's your position in thecompany, you can't say consumer
or you know, shooter orsomething like that.
I've got I get a couple likethat every year, and it's always

(01:19:25):
you can always tell it's like uhyou know, says title, and uh I
got one that said mister.
Well well, Mr.
Brown.
I'm sorry, but this form is notacceptable.
Yeah, what's your title, Mr.?

(01:19:46):
Yeah, yeah, youra, Mistress ofthe Dark.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:55):
All right, and kind of along the same lines, I I got
a question, I filled a questionthis last week.
And hey, is is this ammo okay?
It's not on to shoot at matches,it's not on the list.
They're like, well, yeah.
Um, you know, you don't have toshoot ammo off the ammo list.

(01:20:15):
Um, that is that's that's forspecial circumstances at majors.
Um, there's reasons that youwant it might want to do that at
majors, especially if you don'twant to fly with ammo and you
can arrange for it to be thelast there.
Um, but um that's that is not aonly this ammo because um yeah,
there's a number ofmanufacturers that would really

(01:20:38):
dis be disappointed if we saidsuddenly said re loaded ammo was
not okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:44):
Um not to mention all the hand loaders.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:47):
Well, that's what I mean.
Like you know, loaders.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's like the list isokay and all the all the you
know, all the big companies.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:57):
Well, I mean the certified ammo list is if you
want to go to a match and havebasically chrono insurance.
Um, or like you said, don't wantto have to fly with ammo.
So I switched from since Idecided to fly to nationals, I
switched to limited optics,which I'm not classified in, so
this will be good.
Um, and bought ammo to haveshipped directly to the match.

(01:21:19):
Yeah.
Because I didn't want to dealwith shipping open ammo.
Because I'm lazy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:25):
Well, that our UPS hub is closed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:29):
Well, that's why, yeah, it was gonna take a little
extra work.
And so it's no longer as easy toship ammo as it used to be.
I think I have to call them andget them to pick it up now, but
yeah.
I also read that they since theyclosed the deep at the customer
hubs, UPS stores are supposed toship them.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:45):
I asked when I was in there the other day, and the
young lady behind the counterdid not know.
Yeah.
So, which means if you showed upwith it, they would probably say
no.
Probably.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:55):
That's why I I just made my order to Ely and Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:02):
Well, that's the list as I have it.
You guys have anything youspecial you want to talk about
or add, or um I will say that wehave been getting a lot of class
requests already for 2026.
Yeah.
We got four today.
Uh well, it's the same club, soyeah, but you know, still it's

(01:22:23):
four seminars.
Um and you know, the club I wasat this weekend is talking about
more set, you know, someseminars next year already.
And so it's uh yeah, it's agrowth industry, I guess.
So if you're thinking about holdyou know holding a class, and

(01:22:44):
you should be if you haveespecially if you haven't had
one at your club for a while,um, or in your area, it's a good
idea to go ahead and you knowpick the weekend and get in
there.
Uh avoid the weekends.
Nashville's dates are out fornext year, so avoid those
weekends.
Some of the areas have postedtheir dates.
Avoid those weekends if you can,um, at least regionally.

(01:23:06):
And uh, you know, we'll do ourbest to get you an instructor uh
signed, but get in there um getthem, you know, get those
requests in.
Um, I think it looked like theearly late winter, early spring
was starting to fill up.
So, well, with that, folks, ifyou have questions, comments,
whatever, rules at uspsta.org,send us an email and we'll get

(01:23:28):
back to you as soon as we can.
Thanks everybody for listening,and we'll see you in two weeks.
Good night.
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