October 21, 2024 • 23 mins
To advance the understanding of complex living systems, research must have an integration of scientific disciplines. Pankaj Jaiswal, a program officer in the U.S. National Science Foundation Division of Integrative Organismal Systems' Plant Genome Research Program, and Robyn Smyth, a program director in the NSF Division of Environmental Biology's Ecosystem Science Cluster, discuss plant genomes and water systems research.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
One cornerstone in scientific
research is discoveriesthat help us better understand life.
Advances in the frontiersof biological knowledge provide a basis
for that understanding in the areasof complex, dynamic living systems.
To make these advances,
(00:25):
research must have an integrationof scientific disciplines.
We're joined by Pankaj Jaiswal,a program officer in the Plant
Genome Research Programin the Integrative Organismal Systems
Division here at NSF, and a professorat Oregon State University.
Professor Jaiswal.
A lot of your career has dealtwith genomic research.
Why is genomic information important?
(00:46):
A lot of factorsgo into genomic information
depending on, let's say, the crops.
For example,
if you're looking at the domesticatedmajor crops like corn and soybean and
cotton, for example, that are major cropsin the US, or peanut, for example.
So people want to know, for example,in peanuts, what are the genes
that are involved in allergensor what makes cotton fiber a strong fiber?
(01:10):
And can we get the similar kind of cotton
fiber yield when it's a drier conditionsversus the weather conditions
or can my corn plant adapt to drought
like conditions when there are no wateravailable in our Midwest,
or there are rainfall deficitsthat are happening?
There was drought in Californiafor a very long time, which produces
(01:32):
major amount of commodities, food,commodities for us to consume.
So in order to study and findwhat are the real factors
that are genetic factorsthat are able to withstand
some of those crops, in terms of resilience,
or they are susceptibleto those environmental factors.
In order to do that, people studytake on genomic studies to study
(01:56):
how the genome is organized
in a particular species,and what are the components of that genome
that are responsiblefor controlling some of those responses.
That we are looking at it.
So in that way, it's drilling down
into from molecule to population level,understanding
(02:16):
of how the species behavesor a group of species.
And and not only that, now, as we arelearning a lot of microbiome
or the microbesthat are present in the environment,
they're also regulated and workingwith these crops and plants.
So how those molecular interactionsare happening, and that's all driven
by the genomic studieswe are doing these days.
(02:38):
What is the planting project?
Oh yeah.
Planting project was initiatedas a kind of a data project.
Because what happens is as we designour experiments in biology lab
and how we describe those experimentsas part of our results in very as peer
review publications,or when we share the data
(03:01):
that we generate, for example, in variousgenomics and genetic studies,
everybody uses natural language,how they describe their processes,
how they collected data, what kind oftreatments were given to the plants, what
what plant parts were usedfor those experiments?
And there is we found that
(03:21):
there is a huge amount of diversityon how the things are described.
And as we are collecting large amountof data sets through genomics processes,
we want to also compare what one labhas generated versus another lab.
Can I compare the same studiesand find some new insights into it?
(03:42):
But without that common language?
That was a bigger hassle in that way.
So Plan TeamProject was driven by that motivation,
and we ended up developingsome controlled structured vocabularies.
We call them ontologies.
And those ontologies are defined in a way
that humans can understandin their own natural language process.
(04:06):
But computers can also read that languagein a standardized way
to make differencesbetween all those kinds of things.
So think about it that you will seesomebody describing human hairs.
Versus you also have hairs on leavesand stems of plants.
Right.
So I mean, if I,if I'm describing about hair,
(04:27):
then some computer algorithm comes inand picks up the word hair.
It doesn't know
whether we are talking about plant hairor we are talking about a human hair.
Right.
So we had to come acrosssome of the hurdles of those things
and start defining some data standardsand vocabularies for the
to be describing the plantbiology features that we study.
(04:48):
And that's where, a global standard of ontologies
was started in the plant, projectthat we developed.
You mentioned standards there.
Why are standards important?
Once we started developing,by bringing all the experts
into the field, into a conversation,how do we define,
this particular object of a plantor part of a plant or plant?
(05:09):
Cell of a plant.
So by defining those things,we are creating a global standard in a way
that how we teach through our textbooksin our classrooms,
right from the middle school onwards,all the way up to the college level.
So we need to have that kindof an activity where no more idiosyncrasy,
like definitions of the plant partsshould be happening, how the plants grow.
(05:32):
Every plant part is having a different,landmark in their development.
It's all about learning about the plant,but also comparing apples to apples.
What are you talking about versuswhat other person is describing?
Right.
So what happens once these ontologieswere developed, many of those ontologies
got integrated into the data collectionand the field workbooks.
(05:56):
When people are going into the fieldcollecting data on the crop
so-and-soheight of a plant or a color of a plant,
or the color of the leaves, for example,or the size of the fruit
and things like that.
So how do you describethose kinds of things? In general.
So think about it that way.
A person working on beans and peas
would be describing their fruits as pods.
(06:17):
Somebody growing a strawberrywould be calling it as, a strawberry
bearing fruit and thingslike that, or corn would have kernels,
but all of them are fruitsin general, right?
So the computer doesn't knowhumans know about those things.
So we try to formalize that associationand bringing in this anatomy
(06:41):
into the conversation to describe thatwhat you're describing is equivalent to,
the similar feature in another plantor things like that.
So if we try to resolve the conflictsin the data, through this mechanism,
and that was designedin general to compare,
what can we learn fromone species versus another species,
(07:02):
or can we compare data from one experimentto another experiment
and then we don't have to reinvestin redoing
that same experiment again,that's the motivation.
I know you've also donesome research for chia seeds.
Why are chia seeds interesting.
To chia seeds?
As you can imagine,there's a lot of literature
and a lot of informationin the public domain
(07:23):
that people are sayingthat if you read chia seeds,
you get a lot of nutrition benefitsand it's a kind of a superfood.
That's a new buzzwordthat's going on in the community.
So that take a look at itas the combination of the seed size,
which is very tiny,and the fractions of protein and fiber
(07:43):
and, lipid molecules of fat moleculesthat it stores in it.
Right?
Compared to just the carbohydratesthat are generally present
in a lot of big seeds.
The actual again,so it's a very rich source of, dietary
fiber, protein and fat molecules and fat,
but in particular the fat contentis, heavily skewed towards
(08:08):
having a higher amount of omegathree fatty acids
and that are instrumental in maintaining
a lot of, the cellular structures and,
and body structures that we need in orderto, build in, in humans.
So they do all have, human healthbenefits, on that side.
And, but on what we try to think about it,
(08:32):
that these are the main features,but let's see what's in this genome.
How can we help, how can we unravel some of the things?
Why is it so important?
And I at that point, everybody realizedthat.
Okay, everybody says that Chia
it has high rich protein content,or rather any dietary component
that we eat, say it has richprotein content and it will help us
(08:56):
increase our protein weightand things like that in our body.
But think about it.
That protein that we ingest is always,
digested in our intestine.
And while digesting, itcreates small molecules
of those proteinswe call them as peptides.
(09:16):
And some of those small peptidemolecules are absorbed in the human gut,
for example,
and those molecules actas signaling molecules
or have the potential to alleviatesome of the human health conditions,
for example, hypertension,alleviating the type two diabetes
(09:38):
conditions, or controlling the sugarand glucose concentration.
They can help alleviate the gut health.
On that side, there are other metaboliccompounds in the seeds as well.
In addition to the peptidesis, antioxidants.
That is all we are looking foras nutraceuticals.
I call them as nutraceuticals in general.
(09:58):
So that's one of the factorsthat chia is so rich in that aspect.
And we wanted to study those things.
Does something about its sizecontribute to its benefits for humans?
Like does it make it easier to digest andget those beneficial parts for example?
No, I think I even flip it in that way.
It's all about how you ingest your foodmaterial, right?
(10:19):
So the similar amount of, factors are available in a lot of nuts,
flax seeds, for example,or in sesame seeds.
But do you really need,
can you easily access those materialand can you use it
and incorporate it as a supplemental powerportion of your diet?
(10:41):
Right.
So you don't have to go througha lot of other processing efforts to make
or prepare your food and think thatI think chia is very easy to then zoom in.
That way you just need waterand the chia seeds,
and you just soak them up for five minutesand they are ready to consume.
They have no they have
they're very neutral tasteand can be added to anything very easily.
(11:04):
So you don't need any extra gimmicksto do all the processing to consume.
So it's, it'sI think it's the ease of consumption
bringsinto that equation, into this picture.
Now what is the
biggest challengewith genomic research there?
Bigger challenges in genomics.
Thing is that the data is very big, right.
(11:25):
So along with that datathat is being generated
out of those things is, how you defineand describe your experiment.
Where do you store your dataand how do you analyze your data?
And then once the analysis of thatin initial data happens,
then you also start comparing data withwhat else is known about the similar kind
(11:48):
of genomic data from another experimentor from another species.
Right.
What can we learn fromclosely related species?
So that all depends onwhere the data is archived.
How is it analyzed?
And if somebody else's datais accessible to you.
So archiving, analyze data,
(12:10):
presenting and having accessto third party data in general.
So those are the bigger challenges.
And then once you start comparing again,as I told you in the ontology
question is about am I able to
look at allthe experimental design features
to compare whether my design versustheir design is the same
or have some commonalities between them,what they are describing?
(12:33):
If I'm describing, for example,even a gene A versus Gene B in
my, are they having any similarityon those kind of thing.
So those are some of the bigger challengesthat you can imagine.
And we have spent, huge
amount of resourcesin developing data archives,
for example, at Ncbi, and then the European
(12:55):
Informatics Institute has oneand the Japan has another one.
Those are the major DNAand RNA and protein molecule data
information archives,but not a whole lot of
investment has happenedin case of analyzed data.
But then again, when that investmentplus or you can imagine
(13:15):
scientists oftentimes are not necessarilytrained in open science
and sharing their own data, openly.
Many of the features are genomicscommunity is very open in that sense.
But it also waitsuntil the data is published.
Right.
So those are some of the challengesthat we are encountering on
(13:37):
how to make that dataaccessible and fair ideas.
Also, can I reanalyze your datato find new things?
Because let's say, for example,if I create a genomics data,
there are millions of data pointsin that data.
I may have 1 or 2 questionsto ask through that data,
and I'm not analyzingthe whole full set of it.
(13:57):
So if I open that data to the public,through some, resource,
then, somebody else or the communitywould be able to scan the same data
and the same results and might look atthis thing from a different perspective.
That brings a more open question about it.
How much is accessibility?
What is the IP issues?
(14:18):
And with the because it all depends
on the genetic material and,organismal data
and where it was collected and, and who'snational and political territory.
There are some restrictions on globalbased on the global treaties that we have.
Can that data be made public?
Can you use that data for doing downstreamanalysis?
(14:40):
Thosethere are a lot of challenges in that,
but communities are working onthose kind of things.
We are also joined by Robyn Smyth,a program director in the Ecosystem
Science cluster within the Divisionof Environmental Biology here at NSF.
Doctor Smyth,what are you interested in about lakes?
So I'm a lake scientist and I'm interestedin two main areas there.
(15:01):
And that's how the physicsof lakes impacts the biology of lakes.
And then the second area is abouthow we manage lakes effectively.
Now what is the differencebetween a lake and a pond?
That's a great question.
And the answer to that to some extentdepends on where you're from.
There's a lot of variability and whethera water body is called a lake or a pond.
(15:21):
Regionally, but we tend to think of lakesas bigger and deeper ecosystems
and pondsas more shallow and smaller ecosystems.
I was involved in a study with colleaguesfrom the Global
Lake Ecological Observatory Network.
That's such a really definewhere is that transition from lake
to pondfrom an ecological functional perspective.
(15:42):
And we found that water bodiesthat are deeper than 5m or 30ft,
bigger than five hectares or 12 acresand have between 10 and 30%
vegetation on their bottom,
are behaving differently than water bodiesthat are bigger,
which would be lakes and water bodiesthat are smaller, which would be wetlands.
(16:02):
All right.
Thinking about there being a structure tolakes, I think any of us who have swam in
them have noticed that it's warmer towardsthe top and gets colder as you go down.
Can you tell us a little bit about this?
Yeah, exactly.
That that layer
where you feel that cold at the bottomthat's called the thermocline.
And that's a regionwhere the water temperature is changing.
Really fast with depth.
(16:23):
And that happens
because the lake can't penetrateto the bottom of all water bodies.
And so the warmer, brighter watersat the top are less dense,
warmer water is less densethan colder water.
And so this warm light layer
sort of floats on top of the deeperwater below.
And this creates distinct habitatsthat different
aquatic organisms use differently.
(16:44):
So some fish like warm water habitatsand they stay up in that light zone.
Other fish like get colder.
And they you would find them downin the deeper layers below.
Does that temperature differencedramatically impact what organisms can
live in different areas. Right.
So temperature is a major factor.
All aquatic organisms unlike us,they don't regulate their body
temperatures very well.
(17:06):
So they're dependent upon the watertemperature that they live in.
So some organisms will seek out a warmerhabitat.
Others can tolerate a colder habitat.
One important difference in a lakeecosystem is that those bottom waters
where there isn't light can becomedepleted with oxygen, and that can limit
the life that can live in those bottomdeep layers in some cases.
(17:28):
I also want to specificallyask you about algae blooms.
Every couple of years,we see reports of these big
and potentially harmfulred blooms in Florida, for example.
And I'm wondering, well,what causes algae blooms?
Some algae blooms are natural and normaland all part of the seasonal cycle
to a lake into the ocean,and in particular
the spring bloom is a key featurein the ecology of a lake.
(17:52):
The spring bloom happenswhen the days are getting longer
and brighter, and now there's more lightavailable for conducting photosynthesis.
And so the algae are just starting to growwith that access to that new light.
And that spring bloom is criticalto sort of
jumpstarting the ecosystemfor the whole growing season.
(18:12):
Other blooms when we consider themharmful is when they are impairing
human uses like drinking wateror recreation and or fishing activities.
Right?
Then we when the algae bloom
is interfering with those activities,we start to call those blooms harmful.
We're particularly concerned with bloomswhen they are producing toxins,
so the microorganisms generatethose toxins to avoid grazing, right?
(18:37):
To avoid being eaten by their predators
and in some casesto help them outcompete their neighbors.
But those toxinsunfortunately affect other organisms
than just the algae in the water.They are.
They can affect everythingfrom the shellfish up to humans
and causing an array of problems,some irritating your skin
to liver problemsand in some cases are neurotoxins.
(19:01):
So what can people look forwhen they go out in these environments
that may have blooms?
And is there anything that we can doto prevent them?
It's really important to avoid.
If you see surfacescums, green surface comes on the water,
it's important to avoid those areas,to not swim in them,
to not let your dogs near thosebecause they could be producing toxins.
That's part of the tricky part here,is that not all blooms are making toxins.
(19:26):
And sometimes these algae can make toxinswhen they're not in bloom form.
So that is a very complicated problemfor those that are involved
in leak management.
Ultimatelythese nuisance blooms are happening
because we've over loaded our water bodieswith fertilizing
nutrients,particularly nitrogen and phosphorus.
These nutrients come from fertilizers
(19:47):
that we put on cropsthat we put in our yards.
They wash off into water bodieswith rain water,
and then they fertilize the growthof the algae in those water bodies.
Okay.
So that's when we get this overgrowththat then starts to sort of trigger
these more nuisance bloomsthat can get into toxin producing.
So the best thing that we can do to reducealgae blooms is to reduce
(20:10):
the applications of fertilizers on land,and to try to keep soil in place.
So for this next question,I'm thinking about local governments
for example, when I ask this,what are some of the challenges
in engagingstakeholders about water resources?
Yeah, one of the
biggest challenges in engaging peopleand groups and institutions in the study
(20:32):
and the management of waterresources is power imbalances.
So water, aquatic ecosystemsand water resources have many uses
irrigation, drinking water, recreational activities, hydropower or
and ideally, we'd be able to manage
these water resourcesto provide for all of those uses.
But in some cases that's not possible.
(20:55):
And for example,if you have a dam that you're
using to hold back waterfor hydropower, for irrigation,
and that can come at the expenseof letting that water flow
to create fish habitat, that's importantfor subsistence and recreational fishing.
So it's importantwhen we're trying to engage folks
in water researchto be mindful of those power imbalances.
(21:18):
So when you're tryingto bring people together, some of those
stakeholders are goingto be more empowered than others.
For example,the hydropower interests might have more
say than the recreational fishers.
And so as researchers,if we're looking to create equitable,
sustainable solutionsto our water resource challenges,
(21:39):
it's really importantto keep those power imbalances in mind.
I lived in Californiafor a number of years, and water use
and water rights are becominga bigger issue across the southwest
as we have more sustaineddrought conditions.
Do you think issues such as droughtsare making it easier to engage
with people in those areas?
I knew water is life, right? Right.
(22:00):
And everyone knows it.
And as we experience more droughts,as we experience
more floods, people are tuning in more.
And I think taking for granted is lessthe idea that the water is going to be
where we would like it to be,when we would like it to be there.
The last thing I wanted to ask youabout today,
I've come across speculationabout whether the ocean could be used
(22:20):
for long term storageand capture for manmade carbon emissions.
Could that be possible?
The ocean is capturing carbon all the timeas part of its natural process.
It's capturing carbon.
And some of that carbonthat's captured through photosynthesis
does sink to the bottom of the ocean,where it goes into long term storage.
Now, the question is,can we enhance that capture
(22:41):
and storage to help to offsethuman emissions of carbon dioxide?
And that's a very challenging problem.
We have some ideas about whereand how we might go
about fertilizing the surface oceanto increase the capture of carbon dioxide,
but much less control
over whether or not that captured carbonis going to make it into long term storage
(23:05):
at the bottom of the ocean becauseof the biophysical dynamics of the ocean.
So when it comesto offsetting human emissions,
I think that there are really other naturebased solutions that are going to be
better bets than tryingto fertilize the surface ocean.
Specialthanks to Pankaj Jaiswal and Robyn Smyth.
For The Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
(23:25):
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program,
share it with a friendand consider leaving a review.
Discover how the U.S.
National Science Foundationis advancing research at NSF.gov.
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
One cornerstone in scientific
research is discoveriesthat help us better understand life.
Advances in the frontiersof biological knowledge provide a basis
for that understanding in the areasof complex, dynamic living systems.
To make these advances,
(00:25):
research must have an integrationof scientific disciplines.
We're joined by Pankaj Jaiswal,a program officer in the Plant
Genome Research Programin the Integrative Organismal Systems
Division here at NSF, and a professorat Oregon State University.
Professor Jaiswal.
A lot of your career has dealtwith genomic research.
Why is genomic information important?
(00:46):
A lot of factorsgo into genomic information
depending on, let's say, the crops.
For example,
if you're looking at the domesticatedmajor crops like corn and soybean and
cotton, for example, that are major cropsin the US, or peanut, for example.
So people want to know, for example,in peanuts, what are the genes
that are involved in allergensor what makes cotton fiber a strong fiber?
(01:10):
And can we get the similar kind of cotton
fiber yield when it's a drier conditionsversus the weather conditions
or can my corn plant adapt to drought
like conditions when there are no wateravailable in our Midwest,
or there are rainfall deficitsthat are happening?
There was drought in Californiafor a very long time, which produces
(01:32):
major amount of commodities, food,commodities for us to consume.
So in order to study and findwhat are the real factors
that are genetic factorsthat are able to withstand
some of those crops, in terms of resilience,
or they are susceptibleto those environmental factors.
In order to do that, people studytake on genomic studies to study
(01:56):
how the genome is organized
in a particular species,and what are the components of that genome
that are responsiblefor controlling some of those responses.
That we are looking at it.
So in that way, it's drilling down
into from molecule to population level,understanding
(02:16):
of how the species behavesor a group of species.
And and not only that, now, as we arelearning a lot of microbiome
or the microbesthat are present in the environment,
they're also regulated and workingwith these crops and plants.
So how those molecular interactionsare happening, and that's all driven
by the genomic studieswe are doing these days.
(02:38):
What is the planting project?
Oh yeah.
Planting project was initiatedas a kind of a data project.
Because what happens is as we designour experiments in biology lab
and how we describe those experimentsas part of our results in very as peer
review publications,or when we share the data
(03:01):
that we generate, for example, in variousgenomics and genetic studies,
everybody uses natural language,how they describe their processes,
how they collected data, what kind oftreatments were given to the plants, what
what plant parts were usedfor those experiments?
And there is we found that
(03:21):
there is a huge amount of diversityon how the things are described.
And as we are collecting large amountof data sets through genomics processes,
we want to also compare what one labhas generated versus another lab.
Can I compare the same studiesand find some new insights into it?
(03:42):
But without that common language?
That was a bigger hassle in that way.
So Plan TeamProject was driven by that motivation,
and we ended up developingsome controlled structured vocabularies.
We call them ontologies.
And those ontologies are defined in a way
that humans can understandin their own natural language process.
(04:06):
But computers can also read that languagein a standardized way
to make differencesbetween all those kinds of things.
So think about it that you will seesomebody describing human hairs.
Versus you also have hairs on leavesand stems of plants.
Right.
So I mean, if I,if I'm describing about hair,
(04:27):
then some computer algorithm comes inand picks up the word hair.
It doesn't know
whether we are talking about plant hairor we are talking about a human hair.
Right.
So we had to come acrosssome of the hurdles of those things
and start defining some data standardsand vocabularies for the
to be describing the plantbiology features that we study.
(04:48):
And that's where, a global standard of ontologies
was started in the plant, projectthat we developed.
You mentioned standards there.
Why are standards important?
Once we started developing,by bringing all the experts
into the field, into a conversation,how do we define,
this particular object of a plantor part of a plant or plant?
(05:09):
Cell of a plant.
So by defining those things,we are creating a global standard in a way
that how we teach through our textbooksin our classrooms,
right from the middle school onwards,all the way up to the college level.
So we need to have that kindof an activity where no more idiosyncrasy,
like definitions of the plant partsshould be happening, how the plants grow.
(05:32):
Every plant part is having a different,landmark in their development.
It's all about learning about the plant,but also comparing apples to apples.
What are you talking about versuswhat other person is describing?
Right.
So what happens once these ontologieswere developed, many of those ontologies
got integrated into the data collectionand the field workbooks.
(05:56):
When people are going into the fieldcollecting data on the crop
so-and-soheight of a plant or a color of a plant,
or the color of the leaves, for example,or the size of the fruit
and things like that.
So how do you describethose kinds of things? In general.
So think about it that way.
A person working on beans and peas
would be describing their fruits as pods.
(06:17):
Somebody growing a strawberrywould be calling it as, a strawberry
bearing fruit and thingslike that, or corn would have kernels,
but all of them are fruitsin general, right?
So the computer doesn't knowhumans know about those things.
So we try to formalize that associationand bringing in this anatomy
(06:41):
into the conversation to describe thatwhat you're describing is equivalent to,
the similar feature in another plantor things like that.
So if we try to resolve the conflictsin the data, through this mechanism,
and that was designedin general to compare,
what can we learn fromone species versus another species,
(07:02):
or can we compare data from one experimentto another experiment
and then we don't have to reinvestin redoing
that same experiment again,that's the motivation.
I know you've also donesome research for chia seeds.
Why are chia seeds interesting.
To chia seeds?
As you can imagine,there's a lot of literature
and a lot of informationin the public domain
(07:23):
that people are sayingthat if you read chia seeds,
you get a lot of nutrition benefitsand it's a kind of a superfood.
That's a new buzzwordthat's going on in the community.
So that take a look at itas the combination of the seed size,
which is very tiny,and the fractions of protein and fiber
(07:43):
and, lipid molecules of fat moleculesthat it stores in it.
Right?
Compared to just the carbohydratesthat are generally present
in a lot of big seeds.
The actual again,so it's a very rich source of, dietary
fiber, protein and fat molecules and fat,
but in particular the fat contentis, heavily skewed towards
(08:08):
having a higher amount of omegathree fatty acids
and that are instrumental in maintaining
a lot of, the cellular structures and,
and body structures that we need in orderto, build in, in humans.
So they do all have, human healthbenefits, on that side.
And, but on what we try to think about it,
(08:32):
that these are the main features,but let's see what's in this genome.
How can we help, how can we unravel some of the things?
Why is it so important?
And I at that point, everybody realizedthat.
Okay, everybody says that Chia
it has high rich protein content,or rather any dietary component
that we eat, say it has richprotein content and it will help us
(08:56):
increase our protein weightand things like that in our body.
But think about it.
That protein that we ingest is always,
digested in our intestine.
And while digesting, itcreates small molecules
of those proteinswe call them as peptides.
(09:16):
And some of those small peptidemolecules are absorbed in the human gut,
for example,
and those molecules actas signaling molecules
or have the potential to alleviatesome of the human health conditions,
for example, hypertension,alleviating the type two diabetes
(09:38):
conditions, or controlling the sugarand glucose concentration.
They can help alleviate the gut health.
On that side, there are other metaboliccompounds in the seeds as well.
In addition to the peptidesis, antioxidants.
That is all we are looking foras nutraceuticals.
I call them as nutraceuticals in general.
(09:58):
So that's one of the factorsthat chia is so rich in that aspect.
And we wanted to study those things.
Does something about its sizecontribute to its benefits for humans?
Like does it make it easier to digest andget those beneficial parts for example?
No, I think I even flip it in that way.
It's all about how you ingest your foodmaterial, right?
(10:19):
So the similar amount of, factors are available in a lot of nuts,
flax seeds, for example,or in sesame seeds.
But do you really need,
can you easily access those materialand can you use it
and incorporate it as a supplemental powerportion of your diet?
(10:41):
Right.
So you don't have to go througha lot of other processing efforts to make
or prepare your food and think thatI think chia is very easy to then zoom in.
That way you just need waterand the chia seeds,
and you just soak them up for five minutesand they are ready to consume.
They have no they have
they're very neutral tasteand can be added to anything very easily.
(11:04):
So you don't need any extra gimmicksto do all the processing to consume.
So it's, it'sI think it's the ease of consumption
bringsinto that equation, into this picture.
Now what is the
biggest challengewith genomic research there?
Bigger challenges in genomics.
Thing is that the data is very big, right.
(11:25):
So along with that datathat is being generated
out of those things is, how you defineand describe your experiment.
Where do you store your dataand how do you analyze your data?
And then once the analysis of thatin initial data happens,
then you also start comparing data withwhat else is known about the similar kind
(11:48):
of genomic data from another experimentor from another species.
Right.
What can we learn fromclosely related species?
So that all depends onwhere the data is archived.
How is it analyzed?
And if somebody else's datais accessible to you.
So archiving, analyze data,
(12:10):
presenting and having accessto third party data in general.
So those are the bigger challenges.
And then once you start comparing again,as I told you in the ontology
question is about am I able to
look at allthe experimental design features
to compare whether my design versustheir design is the same
or have some commonalities between them,what they are describing?
(12:33):
If I'm describing, for example,even a gene A versus Gene B in
my, are they having any similarityon those kind of thing.
So those are some of the bigger challengesthat you can imagine.
And we have spent, huge
amount of resourcesin developing data archives,
for example, at Ncbi, and then the European
(12:55):
Informatics Institute has oneand the Japan has another one.
Those are the major DNAand RNA and protein molecule data
information archives,but not a whole lot of
investment has happenedin case of analyzed data.
But then again, when that investmentplus or you can imagine
(13:15):
scientists oftentimes are not necessarilytrained in open science
and sharing their own data, openly.
Many of the features are genomicscommunity is very open in that sense.
But it also waitsuntil the data is published.
Right.
So those are some of the challengesthat we are encountering on
(13:37):
how to make that dataaccessible and fair ideas.
Also, can I reanalyze your datato find new things?
Because let's say, for example,if I create a genomics data,
there are millions of data pointsin that data.
I may have 1 or 2 questionsto ask through that data,
and I'm not analyzingthe whole full set of it.
(13:57):
So if I open that data to the public,through some, resource,
then, somebody else or the communitywould be able to scan the same data
and the same results and might look atthis thing from a different perspective.
That brings a more open question about it.
How much is accessibility?
What is the IP issues?
(14:18):
And with the because it all depends
on the genetic material and,organismal data
and where it was collected and, and who'snational and political territory.
There are some restrictions on globalbased on the global treaties that we have.
Can that data be made public?
Can you use that data for doing downstreamanalysis?
(14:40):
Thosethere are a lot of challenges in that,
but communities are working onthose kind of things.
We are also joined by Robyn Smyth,a program director in the Ecosystem
Science cluster within the Divisionof Environmental Biology here at NSF.
Doctor Smyth,what are you interested in about lakes?
So I'm a lake scientist and I'm interestedin two main areas there.
(15:01):
And that's how the physicsof lakes impacts the biology of lakes.
And then the second area is abouthow we manage lakes effectively.
Now what is the differencebetween a lake and a pond?
That's a great question.
And the answer to that to some extentdepends on where you're from.
There's a lot of variability and whethera water body is called a lake or a pond.
(15:21):
Regionally, but we tend to think of lakesas bigger and deeper ecosystems
and pondsas more shallow and smaller ecosystems.
I was involved in a study with colleaguesfrom the Global
Lake Ecological Observatory Network.
That's such a really definewhere is that transition from lake
to pondfrom an ecological functional perspective.
(15:42):
And we found that water bodiesthat are deeper than 5m or 30ft,
bigger than five hectares or 12 acresand have between 10 and 30%
vegetation on their bottom,
are behaving differently than water bodiesthat are bigger,
which would be lakes and water bodiesthat are smaller, which would be wetlands.
(16:02):
All right.
Thinking about there being a structure tolakes, I think any of us who have swam in
them have noticed that it's warmer towardsthe top and gets colder as you go down.
Can you tell us a little bit about this?
Yeah, exactly.
That that layer
where you feel that cold at the bottomthat's called the thermocline.
And that's a regionwhere the water temperature is changing.
Really fast with depth.
(16:23):
And that happens
because the lake can't penetrateto the bottom of all water bodies.
And so the warmer, brighter watersat the top are less dense,
warmer water is less densethan colder water.
And so this warm light layer
sort of floats on top of the deeperwater below.
And this creates distinct habitatsthat different
aquatic organisms use differently.
(16:44):
So some fish like warm water habitatsand they stay up in that light zone.
Other fish like get colder.
And they you would find them downin the deeper layers below.
Does that temperature differencedramatically impact what organisms can
live in different areas. Right.
So temperature is a major factor.
All aquatic organisms unlike us,they don't regulate their body
temperatures very well.
(17:06):
So they're dependent upon the watertemperature that they live in.
So some organisms will seek out a warmerhabitat.
Others can tolerate a colder habitat.
One important difference in a lakeecosystem is that those bottom waters
where there isn't light can becomedepleted with oxygen, and that can limit
the life that can live in those bottomdeep layers in some cases.
(17:28):
I also want to specificallyask you about algae blooms.
Every couple of years,we see reports of these big
and potentially harmfulred blooms in Florida, for example.
And I'm wondering, well,what causes algae blooms?
Some algae blooms are natural and normaland all part of the seasonal cycle
to a lake into the ocean,and in particular
the spring bloom is a key featurein the ecology of a lake.
(17:52):
The spring bloom happenswhen the days are getting longer
and brighter, and now there's more lightavailable for conducting photosynthesis.
And so the algae are just starting to growwith that access to that new light.
And that spring bloom is criticalto sort of
jumpstarting the ecosystemfor the whole growing season.
(18:12):
Other blooms when we consider themharmful is when they are impairing
human uses like drinking wateror recreation and or fishing activities.
Right?
Then we when the algae bloom
is interfering with those activities,we start to call those blooms harmful.
We're particularly concerned with bloomswhen they are producing toxins,
so the microorganisms generatethose toxins to avoid grazing, right?
(18:37):
To avoid being eaten by their predators
and in some casesto help them outcompete their neighbors.
But those toxinsunfortunately affect other organisms
than just the algae in the water.They are.
They can affect everythingfrom the shellfish up to humans
and causing an array of problems,some irritating your skin
to liver problemsand in some cases are neurotoxins.
(19:01):
So what can people look forwhen they go out in these environments
that may have blooms?
And is there anything that we can doto prevent them?
It's really important to avoid.
If you see surfacescums, green surface comes on the water,
it's important to avoid those areas,to not swim in them,
to not let your dogs near thosebecause they could be producing toxins.
That's part of the tricky part here,is that not all blooms are making toxins.
(19:26):
And sometimes these algae can make toxinswhen they're not in bloom form.
So that is a very complicated problemfor those that are involved
in leak management.
Ultimatelythese nuisance blooms are happening
because we've over loaded our water bodieswith fertilizing
nutrients,particularly nitrogen and phosphorus.
These nutrients come from fertilizers
(19:47):
that we put on cropsthat we put in our yards.
They wash off into water bodieswith rain water,
and then they fertilize the growthof the algae in those water bodies.
Okay.
So that's when we get this overgrowththat then starts to sort of trigger
these more nuisance bloomsthat can get into toxin producing.
So the best thing that we can do to reducealgae blooms is to reduce
(20:10):
the applications of fertilizers on land,and to try to keep soil in place.
So for this next question,I'm thinking about local governments
for example, when I ask this,what are some of the challenges
in engagingstakeholders about water resources?
Yeah, one of the
biggest challenges in engaging peopleand groups and institutions in the study
(20:32):
and the management of waterresources is power imbalances.
So water, aquatic ecosystemsand water resources have many uses
irrigation, drinking water, recreational activities, hydropower or
and ideally, we'd be able to manage
these water resourcesto provide for all of those uses.
But in some cases that's not possible.
(20:55):
And for example,if you have a dam that you're
using to hold back waterfor hydropower, for irrigation,
and that can come at the expenseof letting that water flow
to create fish habitat, that's importantfor subsistence and recreational fishing.
So it's importantwhen we're trying to engage folks
in water researchto be mindful of those power imbalances.
(21:18):
So when you're tryingto bring people together, some of those
stakeholders are goingto be more empowered than others.
For example,the hydropower interests might have more
say than the recreational fishers.
And so as researchers,if we're looking to create equitable,
sustainable solutionsto our water resource challenges,
(21:39):
it's really importantto keep those power imbalances in mind.
I lived in Californiafor a number of years, and water use
and water rights are becominga bigger issue across the southwest
as we have more sustaineddrought conditions.
Do you think issues such as droughtsare making it easier to engage
with people in those areas?
I knew water is life, right? Right.
(22:00):
And everyone knows it.
And as we experience more droughts,as we experience
more floods, people are tuning in more.
And I think taking for granted is lessthe idea that the water is going to be
where we would like it to be,when we would like it to be there.
The last thing I wanted to ask youabout today,
I've come across speculationabout whether the ocean could be used
(22:20):
for long term storageand capture for manmade carbon emissions.
Could that be possible?
The ocean is capturing carbon all the timeas part of its natural process.
It's capturing carbon.
And some of that carbonthat's captured through photosynthesis
does sink to the bottom of the ocean,where it goes into long term storage.
Now, the question is,can we enhance that capture
(22:41):
and storage to help to offsethuman emissions of carbon dioxide?
And that's a very challenging problem.
We have some ideas about whereand how we might go
about fertilizing the surface oceanto increase the capture of carbon dioxide,
but much less control
over whether or not that captured carbonis going to make it into long term storage
(23:05):
at the bottom of the ocean becauseof the biophysical dynamics of the ocean.
So when it comesto offsetting human emissions,
I think that there are really other naturebased solutions that are going to be
better bets than tryingto fertilize the surface ocean.
Specialthanks to Pankaj Jaiswal and Robyn Smyth.
For The Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
(23:25):
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program,
share it with a friendand consider leaving a review.
Discover how the U.S.
National Science Foundationis advancing research at NSF.gov.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!