December 30, 2024 • 24 mins
Innovation in materials science allows for the improvement of technologies and the exploration of new ones. In this episode of the "NSF's Discovery Files" podcast, Yury Gogotsi, professor at the Drexel University College of Engineering, discusses how MXenes were discovered and some of the ways they may be used in the future.
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(00:03):
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
To develop and advance new technologies.
Scientists and engineers
need to explore new materialsand new techniques to work with them.
More than a decade ago,
a new family of two dimensional materialswas discovered that is proving to have
exceptional properties in an everexpanding range of possible applications.
(00:27):
We're joined by Yuri Gogotsi,Distinguished University and Charles T
and Ruth M Bach, professor at the DrexelUniversity College of Engineering,
as well as director of the AJ DrexelNanomaterials Institute.
In 2011,his group discovered this new family
of two dimensional carbidesin nitrites called MXenes.
Professor Gogotsithank you for joining me today.
(00:48):
My pleasure.
I want to startwith a little bit of background,
and I think we need to set upwhat max phases are.
Well, max phases are a layer at ceramicmaterials where M stands for a metal,
A is metallic or a nonmetallic element,X is carbon and nitrogen.
Considersomething like, Napoleon cake or lasagna
(01:12):
and you will get a pretty good ideaof max phases.
Of course, it will be a very largea Napoleon cake is a ceramic one.
Not surprising, right?
May cause some problems with your teeth.
So what led to the discovery of MXenes?However,
not specifica little looking for discovering
(01:32):
two dimensional carbides or nitrites,which are known as magazines nowadays.
We had a project to develop
anodes for lithium ion batteries.
There are many researchers aroundthe world trying to make better batteries.
And the idea I had was that taking thismax phases, which layer,
(01:54):
as we discussed, just like graphite,
but can contain silicon as a element,
we would be able to get more lithiumin and carbide layers.
That separates silicon, aluminum.
Other elements are metallic conducting.
So better than graphite and calculations
(02:16):
that one of my students did showedthat it's not impossible.
We wrote together with my colleagueMichelle Barsoom and proposal.
Both the money started the research,but lithium did not know
about our calculations, refused to go in.
So we tried to do what?
My group, had been doing for 20 years.
(02:37):
By that timeselectively etch one of the elements,
leaving space for lithium to go in.
And after multiple attempts.
Michael Najib, studentwho worked on this project,
instead of just partially etching,making, room for lithium
completely etched the way aluminum,which was an element in ceramic.
(03:01):
He tried many ones hereand the entire lattice
structurefell apart into two dimensional sheets,
which we maxim sheets,
a discoverywhich was not predicted before.
No unexpected carbides.
And I tried to resistas three two dimensional layers.
And the rest is history.
(03:22):
Now, since then, it's becomequite popular and study.
And there's a lot of different kinds.
Can you talk a little bit about howit's developed over the years since.
For the first five years,there are very few groups
working on mxenes and one of the reasonwas that we discovered
that at the end of 2010,exactly when, under the question
of a solo from Manchesterreceived the Nobel Prize for graphene,
(03:45):
the entire community at the timewas excited about graphene.
As a 2D materials,of course, came into play.
People followed up, and adding another twodimensional material
did not really cause much excitement.
Only really in 2016 when in the first
application,electromagnetic interference showed in.
(04:08):
Since out there from all known materials,
people started to look at what is this?
Is it something really valuable?
And then research started to accelerate
because people found many properties
and appreciated what we have been writingand telling for several years.
By the time that these materialshave enormous potentials
(04:30):
in many different fields because of theirunique combination of properties.
And now it keeps accelerating,
growing, expanding every year.
And there are tens of thousands ofscientists already published in magazines.
So we are quite exciting with developmentnowadays, and this is not uncommon.
(04:51):
I just recently, showeda lecture of Bawendi when they received
Nobel Prize this year, and quantum dotsfor the first five years, similar way.
No one cared really much.
There were very few publicationsand citations on the subject.
But then the field exploded.
So how many magazines dowe know to exist now?
(05:13):
Well, I've seen reports on about 80,I would say.
I know there are many more,because even in our lab we synthesize
more and have not describedand published yet.
But if you take just a dozen of transition
metals, conventional max phases,carbon, nitrogen.
So multiply doesn't by 224
(05:36):
multiply by four
basic structures not taken out of plainin plain old bread structure.
So you get 96.
Take a dozen of surface terminationshalogens.
Chalk agents.
Oxygen hydroxyl.
Phosphorus. Antimony another 12.
You end up with a list of thousandsof combinations possible.
But we can make solid solutions onEm site metals
(06:01):
or excite carbon nitrite or oxycarbide, oxy nitrites.
And people show that it's possibleto create high entropy magazines
with up to nine differenttransition metals in the structure.
So basically it's an infinity
of neutral dimension materialsin this system that can be created.
(06:22):
So we're just unsurewhat the very, very surface of,
this very rich, material filled.
I want to move into a coupleof the practical applications.
And the first one that caughtmy attention was Kirigami antenna.
Can you talk a little bitabout how it can work in that capacity?
Well, let me take a step back.
I mentioned that in 2016,the first paper that really caught
(06:47):
major attention of the communitywas our paper in science magazine
about electromagnetic shieldin this magazines.
This paperreally revolutionized the field.
Within five years, it becamethe most cited ever paper in the field.
And it showed that electromagneticwaves, radio waves, microwaves
(07:08):
can be very effectively reflected
from lightning carbide,titanium, carbon nitride mixing surfaces.
So by the same principle,you can use them as metal antenna.
But keep in mind, MXenes are metalsthat you can disperse in water.
No additives, no surfactant is needed.
Printing to any surface in nanometer film.
(07:30):
So one billionth of a meteror a micrometer film,
one millionth of a meter or any thickness,unlike metal
foil, for example, the people use copper,typically for antennas.
What it allows us to do,it allows us to do
very thin shields ten times thinner suited
times, cell lighter than copper,either for shielding or for antennas.
(07:54):
But since we have strong, flexiblefilms, films that we can make
as a freestanding or put into any surface,we can also stretch them.
We can change the shape.
In particular, our Canadian collaboratorsfrom the University of British Columbia
proposedto make them into the Kirigami shape.
This is basically antenna,the frequency of which can be changed,
(08:19):
to avoid the interference or jamming.
And as a result, it creates smart system,
which is very, very popular right now.
And if you look for moreand more frequencies
and communication,we all talk about 5G now.
But alreadythe industry is preparing for six G era
(08:42):
and material like magazines,which are metallic but lighter signal
compared to conventional metal filmsthat one can produce,
can be producedinto any surface, into any shape
may help to shapethe future of communication industry.
Now, one of the other ones that youpublished on or your group published on.
(09:02):
Since we set this interview up,even was thinking about it
as an insulationor, low thermal conductive material.
Can you talk a little bitabout those possibilities?
This is a very recent discoveryof what to see, what is important.
Whenever one has new materials,
there are all of this surprises possible.
(09:22):
And we know that two dimensional quantummaterials, like graphene
like methodthat shock engineers or perovskites
have already brought many interesting,
surprising and unexpected properties.
For example,I mentioned MXenes are metallic.
They are good for antennas,electromagnetic shielding,
(09:42):
but they are not as conductiveas copper or gold.
But they provide better protectionbecause of this layer of two dimensional
structures that electromagnetic wavescan bounce from different layers here.
Very similar way, when we
studied thermal conductivity of magazines,
we didn't expect to find low releasegraphene.
(10:04):
Graphite are actually knownfor very high thermal conductivity.
Recently, graphite graphene for example,used in some cell phones
as heat spreaderbecause it conducts very well.
But what's the found beforethat makes sense.
Like metals have very low density.
(10:25):
Your, thermal flask
has polished metal or minerallike surface inside
to reflect infrared waves,which transfer heat.
But metals conduct heatvery well through the film.
So it means that the film may be emittingvery little heat.
But everything what comes, goes out
(10:47):
and makes sense again because of their twodimensionality, appear to have
an anomalously low thermal conductivity,
which breaks some of the physics low,
and we still need to fully understandmechanism.
We have some ideas, but I don't know,want to go into quantum, material issues.
(11:10):
But our Belgian collaborators measuredsurprisingly low
thermal conductivityand combined with low emissivity,
it means that very thin MXene filmcan provide very good some protection.
The short look, a 200 nanometersthin film can drop temperature
(11:31):
on the hot plate,heated like to 120 degree by 80 degrees C.
Imagine every atom painted
like the stator paint with titaniumcarbide MXene film keeping houses warm.
It can have an enormous impact.
About 30% of energyproduced in the world used by buildings.
(11:51):
Of course,we are still a long way from being there
just because we will need to producemillions of tons of mxene
just like a millionstone of titanium used to paint buildings.
But it shows it's possible.
And of course it will start with smallerspace, since it can also keep you warm.
If you have a coatings on your coat,
(12:12):
it can insulate electronics in space,for example, or satellites.
So we'll start with applicationswhich require
less material and more capable of toleratea higher cost.
Initially.
But I hope one day we will really see,increasing use in construction
in keeping us warm and minimizingthe amount of fossil fuels
(12:36):
we burn to heat or cool our houses.
So it has. Many, many potential uses.
Is there anything out in the world todaythat uses mxenes?
Yes, of course.
Showed in applications, went alreadyinto industry and practical applications
to our regret, in spitethe fact the discoveries made in the US
(12:58):
and we still keep,I believe, leadership in the field.
The major interest camefirst from elsewhere.
The first companythat licensed multiple patents from
Drexel was a major Japanese company,Murata Japan,
which is a fortune 1000 company,a major manufacturer of electronics
for automotive industryand, personal electronics.
(13:20):
The second one was a Korean company.
The largest manufacturer of magazinewas a couple of
dozens of companies is China.
Korea is probably in the second placeright now,
so I hope we will get more interestin the US.
My former PhD students, startedrecently a company, MXene Inc,
(13:43):
to manufacture mxenes in the USto have a domestic supply of material.
And I'm very optimistic about it.
But there should be a two way, road that's
not only researchers and small businessessuffering material.
There should be interest from USindustry as well.
So we've we've talked a lotabout the different uses of it.
(14:04):
Is it a strong material.Is it very. Resilient.
It is an actuallythis is a very good point that you raised.
Carbides and nitrites are knownfor their high hardness and high strength.
For example, tungstencarbide is used to machined metals.
So it's one of the classical applications.
So naturally when you make Maximvery thin,
(14:25):
if it's like a layer,a few layers, it's still very strong.
It has like a modulus of like solicitorspring constant
which is very, very high,second only to perfect graphene.
And actually
a higher than reducing graphene oxidewhich is used in practical applications.
And it is very strong.
And this is one areawhere I personally believe
(14:49):
mxenes and similar material
will really change the face of materials.
World.
Taking this into a new age of materials,age of assembled
materials,multi-functional programable materials.
So mxene flakes,when you just assemble them
(15:10):
from solution into a film,right, can have strands of aluminum foil.
So you can throw temperature produceinto any thickness film
which will be as strong as aluminum.
But Chinese scientist, in collaborationwith professor Ray Bachman from University
of Texas Dallas, recently showed thatif they can assemble mxene and graphene
(15:33):
and link them with organic molecules,they can, at room temperature,
have a material with a strengthwhich is twice the strength of steel.
But this material can still conduct ions,not only electrons.
So it's not only great shielding materialor structural materials.
(15:53):
This is a material that can store energy.
It can be structural battery.
Imagine a drone or electric plane,but entire fuselage
is not only strongercompared to materials used today,
but it can at the same time storeelectrical energy.
Or when we send ions
between the layersof two dimensional materials,
(16:16):
this layers can open upbecause of its ions.
So what happens, for example,if one such that swelling
it deflects, you can get some senseGolden electrochemical actuator.
And this actuator can
create robots or can create
shape morphing ringfor a plane for a monitored flight.
(16:38):
And the concept has been knownfor a long time.
Materials have been demonstrated,but materials which can do the job
where the soft polymers
or assembled carbon particles.
Now we have materialswhich are both strong and capable
of storing energy or performingmany other function acting as antennas.
(17:01):
If you want to provideshielding and protection.
So this is what we callmultifunctional materials.
So we still believe in them.
Metals and silicon age consideredto be Iron Age in terms of machinery.
Even Elon Musk sends to spacelarge stainless steel cylinders.
(17:22):
I cannot imagine spaceshipsthat will explore other planets,
or maybe as a galacticbeing built of heavy pieces of metals.
They need this typeof a new smart materials.
So we do have building blocks.
Now we know in principlehow to put them together.
And we use artificial intelligence machinelearning, kitchen lab.
(17:45):
This is where we can exactly benefitfrom this infinite number
of two dimensional bricks,or Lego stones that we can assemble them
in super strong materialswith functionalities
we need able to store energy,providing protection against radiation,
(18:06):
changing their shape color on demandso we can do it.
We need guidancenavigating infinity of materials.
And again, if you assemble them together,you get infinity.
Multiply by infinity.
But it's possiblewe can see it in the future.
It's not science fiction anymore.
This is a reality. We need to build.
(18:28):
We need to be strategic to
leapfrog existing technologiesand go forward.
We have the ability to do it.
We have materials to build the future.
We need investors.
We need the governmentand its funding agencies.
We need US industryto invest into this future.
(18:49):
I believe within a decade,we will be moving into the age of
programable multifunctional,assembled materials,
which will really changeevery branch of engineering,
which will truly change, the way we liveand build things here.
The history of humankind is determinedby materials available from the Stone
(19:13):
age to the bronze, iron and curing tothe silicon age of electronics.
So having materials, this fundamentallydifferent combination of properties
which are hard to achieveor just impossible to combine
in any single known materials, will open
totally new opportunities and antennasor shells
(19:35):
10 to 100 times lighter and thinner,or thermal insulation,
which being 100,000 times thinnerthan the human hair and capable to provide
as good insulation as inch thick
ceramic, feltthis aluminum foil on the top.
I think the only the first steps,
because they do thingsbetter than current materials.
(19:58):
What's to want to do?
Create materials that can do things thatcurrent materials simply cannot do at all?
Fundamentally impossible, for example,like materials that combine
electronic and the unique conductivityand mechanical strength in one.
So I'm a strong believer
into the future of assembled materials.
(20:19):
And here we need graphenewhen they're choking.
Tonightwe need dielectric materials like boron.
They tried and oxides.
And of course we need magazines which havesuperior electronic connectivity.
Optoelectronic propertiescome in a variety of beautiful colors.
As well. No limitations.
Not only shades of gray.
(20:40):
So you mentioned funding.
So I have to ask,
can you tell me a little bit about how NSFsupport has impacted your career today?
Well, I have been a ratefor recipient of an asset
funded from the very beginning,and the CEP funding allowed me
to really make some of the critical steps
in my faculty career,starting from, initial work,
(21:02):
in the field of pressing use, phasetransformation, ceramics
to developing carbidederived carbon materials.
When we first extracted metalsfrom carbides to produce porous carbon
graphene nanotubes,which led to extracting element
from max phaseseventually and making mxenes.
(21:25):
So I think in itself has a key role
in finding research that is fundamentaland creates foundations.
For all the applied work.
I also was, talking about, today.
So the
last question I want to ask youtoday is thinking about the future.
(21:46):
What aspect of the development of Maxine'sgoing forward excites you the most?
This is a very difficult question.
Initially, I was very much excited
about application of Maxim'sin electrochemical energy storage.
I still am.
I was just yesterday on that panelon the future of batteries,
and I see brightfuture of Max in particular,
(22:08):
making like a sinecure and collector,shrinking the battery,
making flexible batteriesor structural batteries.
I talked about today, making printablebatteries
and supercapacitorsthat full power Internet of things
wearable sensors as electronic devices.
But when the phones that we can providebetter shoulder
(22:29):
protection for electronics.
I was very much excited by this.
And there are real applicationsand tech transfer in the field.
Now, when we know about this
enormous potential maximfor thermal insulation heat management,
I am quite excited about itand I really want to do more in the field.
(22:52):
I don't know what will be next.
We keep discovering new magazines,we explore their properties
and then ways and propertiesbased on improved processing,
scalability,the look into new applications.
So I hope that the most excitingapplications are actually ahead.
Still, we have not even discovered yet.
(23:14):
But even if you lookat what magazines can do today,
there is clearly an enormous opportunity
to benefit it in many industries.
We are facing a very exciting moment
when all this new materials discoverit developed over the last
couple of decades are coming in place,truly changing the way we do
(23:39):
things from health care to electronics
to construction and spaceflight.
What is important is to benefit from this.
Materials,
whichwill take us to the age of programable
assembled multifunctional materialsand help us to solve problems.
(24:01):
From energy generationto energy storage to water desalination.
Another big areaI didn't have time to talk about
to health carebecause when you look for application,
when you talk to the onesthat are really important for the world.
Special thanks to Yury Gogotsi.
For the Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
You can watch video versions
(24:22):
of these conversations on our YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program, share
with a friend and considerleaving a review.
Discover how the US National Science Foundation is advancing research at NSF.gov.
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
To develop and advance new technologies.
Scientists and engineers
need to explore new materialsand new techniques to work with them.
More than a decade ago,
a new family of two dimensional materialswas discovered that is proving to have
exceptional properties in an everexpanding range of possible applications.
(00:27):
We're joined by Yuri Gogotsi,Distinguished University and Charles T
and Ruth M Bach, professor at the DrexelUniversity College of Engineering,
as well as director of the AJ DrexelNanomaterials Institute.
In 2011,his group discovered this new family
of two dimensional carbidesin nitrites called MXenes.
Professor Gogotsithank you for joining me today.
(00:48):
My pleasure.
I want to startwith a little bit of background,
and I think we need to set upwhat max phases are.
Well, max phases are a layer at ceramicmaterials where M stands for a metal,
A is metallic or a nonmetallic element,X is carbon and nitrogen.
Considersomething like, Napoleon cake or lasagna
(01:12):
and you will get a pretty good ideaof max phases.
Of course, it will be a very largea Napoleon cake is a ceramic one.
Not surprising, right?
May cause some problems with your teeth.
So what led to the discovery of MXenes?However,
not specifica little looking for discovering
(01:32):
two dimensional carbides or nitrites,which are known as magazines nowadays.
We had a project to develop
anodes for lithium ion batteries.
There are many researchers aroundthe world trying to make better batteries.
And the idea I had was that taking thismax phases, which layer,
(01:54):
as we discussed, just like graphite,
but can contain silicon as a element,
we would be able to get more lithiumin and carbide layers.
That separates silicon, aluminum.
Other elements are metallic conducting.
So better than graphite and calculations
(02:16):
that one of my students did showedthat it's not impossible.
We wrote together with my colleagueMichelle Barsoom and proposal.
Both the money started the research,but lithium did not know
about our calculations, refused to go in.
So we tried to do what?
My group, had been doing for 20 years.
(02:37):
By that timeselectively etch one of the elements,
leaving space for lithium to go in.
And after multiple attempts.
Michael Najib, studentwho worked on this project,
instead of just partially etching,making, room for lithium
completely etched the way aluminum,which was an element in ceramic.
(03:01):
He tried many ones hereand the entire lattice
structurefell apart into two dimensional sheets,
which we maxim sheets,
a discoverywhich was not predicted before.
No unexpected carbides.
And I tried to resistas three two dimensional layers.
And the rest is history.
(03:22):
Now, since then, it's becomequite popular and study.
And there's a lot of different kinds.
Can you talk a little bit about howit's developed over the years since.
For the first five years,there are very few groups
working on mxenes and one of the reasonwas that we discovered
that at the end of 2010,exactly when, under the question
of a solo from Manchesterreceived the Nobel Prize for graphene,
(03:45):
the entire community at the timewas excited about graphene.
As a 2D materials,of course, came into play.
People followed up, and adding another twodimensional material
did not really cause much excitement.
Only really in 2016 when in the first
application,electromagnetic interference showed in.
(04:08):
Since out there from all known materials,
people started to look at what is this?
Is it something really valuable?
And then research started to accelerate
because people found many properties
and appreciated what we have been writingand telling for several years.
By the time that these materialshave enormous potentials
(04:30):
in many different fields because of theirunique combination of properties.
And now it keeps accelerating,
growing, expanding every year.
And there are tens of thousands ofscientists already published in magazines.
So we are quite exciting with developmentnowadays, and this is not uncommon.
(04:51):
I just recently, showeda lecture of Bawendi when they received
Nobel Prize this year, and quantum dotsfor the first five years, similar way.
No one cared really much.
There were very few publicationsand citations on the subject.
But then the field exploded.
So how many magazines dowe know to exist now?
(05:13):
Well, I've seen reports on about 80,I would say.
I know there are many more,because even in our lab we synthesize
more and have not describedand published yet.
But if you take just a dozen of transition
metals, conventional max phases,carbon, nitrogen.
So multiply doesn't by 224
(05:36):
multiply by four
basic structures not taken out of plainin plain old bread structure.
So you get 96.
Take a dozen of surface terminationshalogens.
Chalk agents.
Oxygen hydroxyl.
Phosphorus. Antimony another 12.
You end up with a list of thousandsof combinations possible.
But we can make solid solutions onEm site metals
(06:01):
or excite carbon nitrite or oxycarbide, oxy nitrites.
And people show that it's possibleto create high entropy magazines
with up to nine differenttransition metals in the structure.
So basically it's an infinity
of neutral dimension materialsin this system that can be created.
(06:22):
So we're just unsurewhat the very, very surface of,
this very rich, material filled.
I want to move into a coupleof the practical applications.
And the first one that caughtmy attention was Kirigami antenna.
Can you talk a little bitabout how it can work in that capacity?
Well, let me take a step back.
I mentioned that in 2016,the first paper that really caught
(06:47):
major attention of the communitywas our paper in science magazine
about electromagnetic shieldin this magazines.
This paperreally revolutionized the field.
Within five years, it becamethe most cited ever paper in the field.
And it showed that electromagneticwaves, radio waves, microwaves
(07:08):
can be very effectively reflected
from lightning carbide,titanium, carbon nitride mixing surfaces.
So by the same principle,you can use them as metal antenna.
But keep in mind, MXenes are metalsthat you can disperse in water.
No additives, no surfactant is needed.
Printing to any surface in nanometer film.
(07:30):
So one billionth of a meteror a micrometer film,
one millionth of a meter or any thickness,unlike metal
foil, for example, the people use copper,typically for antennas.
What it allows us to do,it allows us to do
very thin shields ten times thinner suited
times, cell lighter than copper,either for shielding or for antennas.
(07:54):
But since we have strong, flexiblefilms, films that we can make
as a freestanding or put into any surface,we can also stretch them.
We can change the shape.
In particular, our Canadian collaboratorsfrom the University of British Columbia
proposedto make them into the Kirigami shape.
This is basically antenna,the frequency of which can be changed,
(08:19):
to avoid the interference or jamming.
And as a result, it creates smart system,
which is very, very popular right now.
And if you look for moreand more frequencies
and communication,we all talk about 5G now.
But alreadythe industry is preparing for six G era
(08:42):
and material like magazines,which are metallic but lighter signal
compared to conventional metal filmsthat one can produce,
can be producedinto any surface, into any shape
may help to shapethe future of communication industry.
Now, one of the other ones that youpublished on or your group published on.
(09:02):
Since we set this interview up,even was thinking about it
as an insulationor, low thermal conductive material.
Can you talk a little bitabout those possibilities?
This is a very recent discoveryof what to see, what is important.
Whenever one has new materials,
there are all of this surprises possible.
(09:22):
And we know that two dimensional quantummaterials, like graphene
like methodthat shock engineers or perovskites
have already brought many interesting,
surprising and unexpected properties.
For example,I mentioned MXenes are metallic.
They are good for antennas,electromagnetic shielding,
(09:42):
but they are not as conductiveas copper or gold.
But they provide better protectionbecause of this layer of two dimensional
structures that electromagnetic wavescan bounce from different layers here.
Very similar way, when we
studied thermal conductivity of magazines,
we didn't expect to find low releasegraphene.
(10:04):
Graphite are actually knownfor very high thermal conductivity.
Recently, graphite graphene for example,used in some cell phones
as heat spreaderbecause it conducts very well.
But what's the found beforethat makes sense.
Like metals have very low density.
(10:25):
Your, thermal flask
has polished metal or minerallike surface inside
to reflect infrared waves,which transfer heat.
But metals conduct heatvery well through the film.
So it means that the film may be emittingvery little heat.
But everything what comes, goes out
(10:47):
and makes sense again because of their twodimensionality, appear to have
an anomalously low thermal conductivity,
which breaks some of the physics low,
and we still need to fully understandmechanism.
We have some ideas, but I don't know,want to go into quantum, material issues.
(11:10):
But our Belgian collaborators measuredsurprisingly low
thermal conductivityand combined with low emissivity,
it means that very thin MXene filmcan provide very good some protection.
The short look, a 200 nanometersthin film can drop temperature
(11:31):
on the hot plate,heated like to 120 degree by 80 degrees C.
Imagine every atom painted
like the stator paint with titaniumcarbide MXene film keeping houses warm.
It can have an enormous impact.
About 30% of energyproduced in the world used by buildings.
(11:51):
Of course,we are still a long way from being there
just because we will need to producemillions of tons of mxene
just like a millionstone of titanium used to paint buildings.
But it shows it's possible.
And of course it will start with smallerspace, since it can also keep you warm.
If you have a coatings on your coat,
(12:12):
it can insulate electronics in space,for example, or satellites.
So we'll start with applicationswhich require
less material and more capable of toleratea higher cost.
Initially.
But I hope one day we will really see,increasing use in construction
in keeping us warm and minimizingthe amount of fossil fuels
(12:36):
we burn to heat or cool our houses.
So it has. Many, many potential uses.
Is there anything out in the world todaythat uses mxenes?
Yes, of course.
Showed in applications, went alreadyinto industry and practical applications
to our regret, in spitethe fact the discoveries made in the US
(12:58):
and we still keep,I believe, leadership in the field.
The major interest camefirst from elsewhere.
The first companythat licensed multiple patents from
Drexel was a major Japanese company,Murata Japan,
which is a fortune 1000 company,a major manufacturer of electronics
for automotive industryand, personal electronics.
(13:20):
The second one was a Korean company.
The largest manufacturer of magazinewas a couple of
dozens of companies is China.
Korea is probably in the second placeright now,
so I hope we will get more interestin the US.
My former PhD students, startedrecently a company, MXene Inc,
(13:43):
to manufacture mxenes in the USto have a domestic supply of material.
And I'm very optimistic about it.
But there should be a two way, road that's
not only researchers and small businessessuffering material.
There should be interest from USindustry as well.
So we've we've talked a lotabout the different uses of it.
(14:04):
Is it a strong material.Is it very. Resilient.
It is an actuallythis is a very good point that you raised.
Carbides and nitrites are knownfor their high hardness and high strength.
For example, tungstencarbide is used to machined metals.
So it's one of the classical applications.
So naturally when you make Maximvery thin,
(14:25):
if it's like a layer,a few layers, it's still very strong.
It has like a modulus of like solicitorspring constant
which is very, very high,second only to perfect graphene.
And actually
a higher than reducing graphene oxidewhich is used in practical applications.
And it is very strong.
And this is one areawhere I personally believe
(14:49):
mxenes and similar material
will really change the face of materials.
World.
Taking this into a new age of materials,age of assembled
materials,multi-functional programable materials.
So mxene flakes,when you just assemble them
(15:10):
from solution into a film,right, can have strands of aluminum foil.
So you can throw temperature produceinto any thickness film
which will be as strong as aluminum.
But Chinese scientist, in collaborationwith professor Ray Bachman from University
of Texas Dallas, recently showed thatif they can assemble mxene and graphene
(15:33):
and link them with organic molecules,they can, at room temperature,
have a material with a strengthwhich is twice the strength of steel.
But this material can still conduct ions,not only electrons.
So it's not only great shielding materialor structural materials.
(15:53):
This is a material that can store energy.
It can be structural battery.
Imagine a drone or electric plane,but entire fuselage
is not only strongercompared to materials used today,
but it can at the same time storeelectrical energy.
Or when we send ions
between the layersof two dimensional materials,
(16:16):
this layers can open upbecause of its ions.
So what happens, for example,if one such that swelling
it deflects, you can get some senseGolden electrochemical actuator.
And this actuator can
create robots or can create
shape morphing ringfor a plane for a monitored flight.
(16:38):
And the concept has been knownfor a long time.
Materials have been demonstrated,but materials which can do the job
where the soft polymers
or assembled carbon particles.
Now we have materialswhich are both strong and capable
of storing energy or performingmany other function acting as antennas.
(17:01):
If you want to provideshielding and protection.
So this is what we callmultifunctional materials.
So we still believe in them.
Metals and silicon age consideredto be Iron Age in terms of machinery.
Even Elon Musk sends to spacelarge stainless steel cylinders.
(17:22):
I cannot imagine spaceshipsthat will explore other planets,
or maybe as a galacticbeing built of heavy pieces of metals.
They need this typeof a new smart materials.
So we do have building blocks.
Now we know in principlehow to put them together.
And we use artificial intelligence machinelearning, kitchen lab.
(17:45):
This is where we can exactly benefitfrom this infinite number
of two dimensional bricks,or Lego stones that we can assemble them
in super strong materialswith functionalities
we need able to store energy,providing protection against radiation,
(18:06):
changing their shape color on demandso we can do it.
We need guidancenavigating infinity of materials.
And again, if you assemble them together,you get infinity.
Multiply by infinity.
But it's possiblewe can see it in the future.
It's not science fiction anymore.
This is a reality. We need to build.
(18:28):
We need to be strategic to
leapfrog existing technologiesand go forward.
We have the ability to do it.
We have materials to build the future.
We need investors.
We need the governmentand its funding agencies.
We need US industryto invest into this future.
(18:49):
I believe within a decade,we will be moving into the age of
programable multifunctional,assembled materials,
which will really changeevery branch of engineering,
which will truly change, the way we liveand build things here.
The history of humankind is determinedby materials available from the Stone
(19:13):
age to the bronze, iron and curing tothe silicon age of electronics.
So having materials, this fundamentallydifferent combination of properties
which are hard to achieveor just impossible to combine
in any single known materials, will open
totally new opportunities and antennasor shells
(19:35):
10 to 100 times lighter and thinner,or thermal insulation,
which being 100,000 times thinnerthan the human hair and capable to provide
as good insulation as inch thick
ceramic, feltthis aluminum foil on the top.
I think the only the first steps,
because they do thingsbetter than current materials.
(19:58):
What's to want to do?
Create materials that can do things thatcurrent materials simply cannot do at all?
Fundamentally impossible, for example,like materials that combine
electronic and the unique conductivityand mechanical strength in one.
So I'm a strong believer
into the future of assembled materials.
(20:19):
And here we need graphenewhen they're choking.
Tonightwe need dielectric materials like boron.
They tried and oxides.
And of course we need magazines which havesuperior electronic connectivity.
Optoelectronic propertiescome in a variety of beautiful colors.
As well. No limitations.
Not only shades of gray.
(20:40):
So you mentioned funding.
So I have to ask,
can you tell me a little bit about how NSFsupport has impacted your career today?
Well, I have been a ratefor recipient of an asset
funded from the very beginning,and the CEP funding allowed me
to really make some of the critical steps
in my faculty career,starting from, initial work,
(21:02):
in the field of pressing use, phasetransformation, ceramics
to developing carbidederived carbon materials.
When we first extracted metalsfrom carbides to produce porous carbon
graphene nanotubes,which led to extracting element
from max phaseseventually and making mxenes.
(21:25):
So I think in itself has a key role
in finding research that is fundamentaland creates foundations.
For all the applied work.
I also was, talking about, today.
So the
last question I want to ask youtoday is thinking about the future.
(21:46):
What aspect of the development of Maxine'sgoing forward excites you the most?
This is a very difficult question.
Initially, I was very much excited
about application of Maxim'sin electrochemical energy storage.
I still am.
I was just yesterday on that panelon the future of batteries,
and I see brightfuture of Max in particular,
(22:08):
making like a sinecure and collector,shrinking the battery,
making flexible batteriesor structural batteries.
I talked about today, making printablebatteries
and supercapacitorsthat full power Internet of things
wearable sensors as electronic devices.
But when the phones that we can providebetter shoulder
(22:29):
protection for electronics.
I was very much excited by this.
And there are real applicationsand tech transfer in the field.
Now, when we know about this
enormous potential maximfor thermal insulation heat management,
I am quite excited about itand I really want to do more in the field.
(22:52):
I don't know what will be next.
We keep discovering new magazines,we explore their properties
and then ways and propertiesbased on improved processing,
scalability,the look into new applications.
So I hope that the most excitingapplications are actually ahead.
Still, we have not even discovered yet.
(23:14):
But even if you lookat what magazines can do today,
there is clearly an enormous opportunity
to benefit it in many industries.
We are facing a very exciting moment
when all this new materials discoverit developed over the last
couple of decades are coming in place,truly changing the way we do
(23:39):
things from health care to electronics
to construction and spaceflight.
What is important is to benefit from this.
Materials,
whichwill take us to the age of programable
assembled multifunctional materialsand help us to solve problems.
(24:01):
From energy generationto energy storage to water desalination.
Another big areaI didn't have time to talk about
to health carebecause when you look for application,
when you talk to the onesthat are really important for the world.
Special thanks to Yury Gogotsi.
For the Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
You can watch video versions
(24:22):
of these conversations on our YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program, share
with a friend and considerleaving a review.
Discover how the US National Science Foundation is advancing research at NSF.gov.
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