July 14, 2025 • 20 mins
Metamaterials are a special class of engineered materials, designed to have properties not found in nature. Glaucio Paulino, a professor at Princeton University, discusses his work on developing modular chiral origami metamaterials, engineering control approaches and the ways they might benefit society.
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(00:03):
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
Materials Science and Engineering exploresthe basic structure,
properties and behavior of materialsto create goods that benefit society.
Within that field are a special classof engineered materials
that exhibit properties not generallyfound in nature, called metamaterials.
(00:24):
We're joined by Glaucio Paulino,the Margareta Engman Augustine Professor
of Engineering at Princeton University,whose group develops emerging materials
and structural systems, including onethat can change its structure to move,
expand and deform using a magnetic field.
Professor Paulino,thank you so much for joining me today.
You are very welcome. I'm glad to be here.
I'm glad to be talking to youabout your work today.
(00:46):
I want to startwith kind of a broad definition.
What is a metamaterial robot?
All right.
These are a robotmade with a metamaterials.
And what is a metamaterial?
Is a special materialthat has some unique properties.
In our case, for example,instead of relying on the chemistry
of the material itself,we rely on the geometrical arrangement
(01:08):
on the material architectureand functionality.
We combine this amount of material
with some special actuation techniques
so that we would have propertiesthat are intrinsic of materials.
For example, materialsthat have deformations
or properties that we see, for example,in robots that have mechanisms
(01:29):
that move a rigid body modeand other things like that.
So we could have a materialthat behaves like a robot,
or a robot that behaves like a materialor a combination.
Somewhere in between. Yes.
Why is origamian interesting engineering approach?
Because origami is a fascinating technique
(01:51):
to transform just a single piece of paper,for example, with a single operation
only just folding into amazingthree dimensional configurations.
Or we can also use a combinationof folding and the cutting, for example.
And in general, in the literature,whenever you cut,
(02:12):
then you say, kirigami,but in general Origami?
And Kirigamis they are basicallythe same family of origami type system.
So what are some of the benefitsof using that approach with a robot.
In the nature paper,we indicate that before, for example,
there was a paper in science in 2017where they created a chiral system
(02:34):
that had somevery interesting properties
coupling the uniaxial deformationand the twist,
but that could only workwith small deformations.
What we did was to use what is called
the Kresling origamithat is a unit like this.
Then we created an equivalent,the rod based system,
(02:56):
and then we assembled them properly into columns
with a very precise controlof the chirality.
For example, this unithas the same chiral orientation.
And then we can also do the oppositeand we combine it
with some rotating square mechanismso that we could have a metamaterial
(03:19):
that would allow us to have multi-modaldeformations
and control this axial deformation
and that twist in a very unique ways.
Can we define the chiral aspect of it forpeople that don't know what that means?
The best example is our hands.
Our hands are a chiral system.
(03:39):
The one hand is the mirror
image of the other,however, is impossible to superposed them
and the then chirality is very much used
in many mechanical systems,biological systems, for example,
is an intrinsic ingredient in the DNA,RNA in biological modeling.
With.
Your modular chiral origamimetamaterials and the metarobot,
(04:04):
how might you control it?
Do you have to do it with your handsor are there other techniques?
Excellent question.
The most natural way to actuateis with the hands right?
For the systemto go to actual applications,
we need to have different meansof actuation.
In this paperwe use the two different ways.
(04:26):
One was a mechanical system.
That's what we have for example,in the instant machine
we have developed the special fixtures
that allow us to explore this uniaxial
and twist the coupling and the chirality.
The chirality is essential
in this system, besides the hand.
(04:48):
Then we use a mechanical system
and the final one,that's the one that we are very excited
about is the magnetic one,because the hand
involves, touching the end pointsof the Kresling tower.
The mechanical actuationalso involves contact.
It's like you put the systemin strong machine, there will be contact,
(05:10):
however, with the magnetic actuationis a non-contact system,
and then it makes the metamaterialor the robot extremely elegant,
very light, with unique properties
that if you would actuate in differentways,
would become more difficultto achieve those properties.
(05:31):
So now that we've set up kind of howit works, how you might control it,
what are some of the potential real worldapplications?
There are many applications,maybe one that relates,
for example, to civil engineering,thermal regulation of buildings.
Now it's very hot.
What do we do here in the officeor where do you are you turn on the air
(05:53):
conditioning, right?
Then in the winter what do we do?
We turn on the heater.
But the cooling and the heating system,in most of the houses
I know, including mine,they are two completely different things.
Now suppose that againthis is a prototype.
This would be a panel of a building.
Now if you just take a take a look here,you can see that
(06:13):
the dominant color that you see is black.
Because this is a absorbing panel.
Then this can be used to heat the environment.
Now the same configuration.
For exampleif I go and I actuate now you can see that
in this regionthe dominant color is white.
Right? There is very little black.
(06:34):
And then a if I keep for example,
if I really want to cool the entire thing,I keep actuating them.
And what we have shown in in the paperis that this is exactly this system
that can vary from 27 degree
centigrade to 70°C.
When a black dominates the solar absorbingpanel, then the temperature is higher.
(06:58):
When the white dominates,then we have a cooling effect
and then the temperature reduces.
This is one application, and there aremany others that we indicate in the paper.
Robotics. Right.
Metamaterials also information encryption.
And we have one examplebecause each unit has a folding state
(07:21):
that we can call here zeroor deploy this state one.
And then they can combine.
And then we can control the bits of
the Kresling units in many differentconfigurations that would lead
to a mechanism for programable
information encryption and,something that,
(07:43):
we are very excited about is,
the noncommutative, states of matter.
If, we pick up a piece of rubberand we fix it on the left and the on
the right hand side, we twist in one way
counterclockwise and then clockwise,
then it will come back,to the original configuration.
(08:06):
But because, the sequence of actuation
will matter if we invert that sequenceinstead of doing,
let's say clockwise firstand then counter clockwise,
then we do clockwiseand then counterclockwise,
the configuration of the systemmight be different.
So I want to refer back to yourheating panel example that you showed.
(08:27):
Because I thinkthat really connected the dots
at least in my thinking, for how you couldpotentially have a magnet system
where you could flip a switch,
and if these were all on the sideof a building
or something, it could dramatically changethe experience inside the building.
What you said
is a very good idea, but in a building,if you create a magnetic system,
it can interfere with cell phones,with other things.
(08:49):
The waves and so on.
And then what we didwas to create a mechanical system
with one degree of freedom that couldactivate all these units at the same time.
What scalewould they need to be for a building?
Would you want them much larger?
Yes. We only have, a prototype,the scale of my hand.
For a building, then this would be onthe scale of, the wall.
(09:12):
Right? Several meters.
But again, that's what technology transferwould be, to transfer things
that we develop in the laboratoryto a commercial scale application.
Then,we would have to design the units to be
as minimally invasive as possibleso that you don't use too much space.
One way that would make it easy to use,for example,
(09:35):
is to have italways on its maximum capability,
although you can have intermediate states,but then the actuation
would be more complicated.
But, if we want to actuate all of themat once, this makes sense because,
for example, right now it's really hot,sheet metal is in your house.
You want to have the maximum coolingthat you can get.
(09:56):
That would be the white surface. Right.
And in the winterthat would be the opposite.
I would like to segue intosome of your other work from here.
And I know you're working with the conceptof tensegrity with metamaterials now.
Can you explain a little bit of whatthat might be?
We have been working for a long time
in trying to create, duality theorywhere, when, we have an origami
(10:20):
like this one that, is based on shells,we would have
an interpretation of this origamiin terms of a tensegrity.
What is a tensegrity?
We like what is called a classone tensegrity.
The best example would be a soccer ball,
because, we are having now,the soccer championships.
Right.
(10:40):
And there will be the WorldCup in the future, then
the analogy between a tensegrityand a soccer ball is the following.
For example,if we have a spherical tensegrity,
we would have cables that would be tension
that this representsthe membrane of the soccer ball.
Then inside we would have columnsthat would be compression.
(11:02):
And this would be an analog to the airthat keeps the soccer ball inflated.
Okay.
We are presently working on a theorythat we call
invariant dual mechanics of tensegrityand origami.
This is a work in progressthat allow us, for example,
if our theory is rightand if it works by understanding,
(11:24):
for example, origami, we could createsome new tensegrities and vice versa.
By understanding the tensegrity,we could create a new origami systems.
Although we started this researchthinking only about regular structures
that are, very regularthat have polygonal formations and so on.
Also, this offers us a mechanismto create irregular structures.
(11:49):
Structures like the ones the ants do,for example, extremely irregular.
That's what we are working on right now.
We are very excited about this dualitybetween origami and tensegrity.
Thinking about the ant structure,
what's the benefit of getting intoirregular structure with that concept?
For example, one idea is that we can havestructures that are very regular
(12:14):
and they will give ussome, set of properties.
Most of these structures in our paper,they are regular.
However, sometimes we may have,
advantages that work with systemsthat are not structured, that are very
random.
For example, spinodal configuration,this is quite random.
(12:37):
However,there is some, logic in all of this.
For example,this here is a piece that is isotropic.
That means it has the same stiffnessin all the directions.
This one is a Lamella system.
This looks like the pages of a book.
In this direction it's very softbecause it's highly porous
(12:57):
and in this direction tends to be morestiff because it's highly anisotropic.
Exploringsimilar ideas can be very beneficial.
For example, in stochastic systemlike this, if you have system
that is regular and then for example,made of rods and you break one of them,
(13:17):
then you will create, a lot of stressconcentrations around that region,
and you can have a cascade defectand break the whole thing.
Here.
If you have, a local defect, then,these structures tend to be,
highly tolerant to local defectsand then this stochastic nature
helps you to get this type of property,like, insensitivity
(13:40):
to defects, resistance to fracture,to cracking, and similar properties.
And then we are exploringsome of these ideas in connection
with, disordered materialsand also ordered materials and,
trying to understand when it's beneficialto use one or the other
and trying to find the noveltiesin each one of them and the connections.
(14:04):
I was thinking of itin an architectural sense, with the rods,
how it might get into weird shapesthat maybe that works with the physics
of the weight distribution,with the building, and maybe not.
Well,they could also be used in architecture.
For example,look at the structures by Frank Gehry.
They are quite irregular, right?
We are working in smaller scales, more
(14:26):
in the material leveland the, the meso scale.
But even here Princeton,I am, looking for some students
in architecture that would be interestedto scale up some of these ideas.
Not exactly as we have them,but adapt them for structures
like the ones that you mention.
And this would be fascinating.
(14:46):
This is a great example of wherethe translation of the research can go.
Exactly, precisely.
And also another advantageis that in our lab,
most of the time we do smaller things,but in the architecture labs,
they have all the infrastructureto do big things and they scale things up.
This would be, a fascinatinginterdisciplinary work among, researchers,
(15:09):
professors in different departments,the students in different departments,
with a cross pollinisation of ideasthat can lead to unique things.
If a student is, hearing this interview
and is interested,can come and talk to me.
So thinking about translational researchand fundamental research,
I want to ask youabout your experience with NSF.
(15:32):
What difference has NSF supportmade to your career?
NSF is, tremendous.
And to my understanding,is the only agency with no mission.
For example, Department of Energy,everything is focused on energy,
Department of defense,the Army, the Navy, the Air Force.
It's all related to defense.
(15:53):
But the NSF, they are very openand they fund,
fundamental ideas, fundamental research.
A lot of the original developments, in my own research program,
they were, supported by NSF,like this paper in Nature.
And I hope that the support for NSFcontinues,
(16:15):
is a tremendously important agencyin the United States.
It works extremely well.
I also worked at NSF some time agoas a program director, between 2009
and 11, NSFis more than the sum of the parts of NSF
is bigger than the whole,because NSF is structured
in many different divisions, directoratesand related to different areas.
(16:40):
But it also connectsvery well with the other agencies
like the NIH for health related research
with the Airforce, the Navy, the DOE, DODand all these agencies.
And at the end, the way I see is that thethe sum of the parts
is much bigger than the wholeand the NSF provides this unique vision
(17:01):
where, fundamental research in any area
is appreciated and welcome and also leads
to applications that allow you to connectwith other agencies.
For example, translating some of thefundamental research to an application.
NSF is amazing.
You know, it had a tremendous impactin my career, with no NSF
(17:21):
a lot of my best work,including this one I just talked to
you probably, we will never know, but,
probably would not be done or would havebeen very difficult to be doing.
NSF is amazing. Amazing.
The last question I want to ask you today,as you mentioned, that you're working
on some tensegrity materialsfor your next project.
But I want to ask you kind of broadly,
(17:43):
where do you see your workgoing in the next few years?
It has, the, the duality between,origami and tensegrity.
I think, this opens up tremendous.
If this worksand this is a work in progress,
but if the ideas that we have, work,this will offer a new paradigm
in structural and material designfor ordered and disordered materials.
(18:07):
Another area that we are, very excitedabout is, that we started to work in.
This Nature paperis the non commutative states of matter.
Okay.
And then, exploring these concepts of chirality
and non commutativityto create, for example, unique
robotic arms or robotic legthat would become lighter, more efficient
(18:31):
and more controllableby exploring the intrinsic,
architecture of the materialor the structural system.
And another ideathat we have, it's very excited,
but this is a work in progress,is, the idea to create origami
state machines for programable logicand memory that extends,
(18:54):
the preliminary ideas in this paperfor programable information encryption.
This is an interesting area,the idea that you could use that
for encryption and codesas a physical thing is interesting.
And the one of the key ideas to make,these origami state machine work
is, to be able to actuate itin a very sophisticated way
(19:16):
and in a non invasive way
by means of the magnetic fields,because you need no contact.
Ff this is successful,this is, system that cannot be hacked.
If it is electronic,then, this depends on the smarter hacker.
Right?
But this one has a mechanical component,in theory could not be hacked.
Right?
(19:36):
Maybe like a combination lock,
if you did it the right ways,you could figure it out.
But really, you’d need to know what it is.
Exactly.
For example, we are doingsome preliminary work in the lab.
We can do this state machine,
with thousands of combinationsor millions of combinations.
And then how are you going to find theright one, you know, it’s very unlikely.
(19:57):
Special thanks to Glaucio Paulino.
For The Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
Watch video versions
of these conversations on the NSF YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program,
share with a friend and considerleaving a review.
Discover about the U.S.
National Science Foundationis advancing research at nsf.gov.
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
Materials Science and Engineering exploresthe basic structure,
properties and behavior of materialsto create goods that benefit society.
Within that field are a special classof engineered materials
that exhibit properties not generallyfound in nature, called metamaterials.
(00:24):
We're joined by Glaucio Paulino,the Margareta Engman Augustine Professor
of Engineering at Princeton University,whose group develops emerging materials
and structural systems, including onethat can change its structure to move,
expand and deform using a magnetic field.
Professor Paulino,thank you so much for joining me today.
You are very welcome. I'm glad to be here.
I'm glad to be talking to youabout your work today.
(00:46):
I want to startwith kind of a broad definition.
What is a metamaterial robot?
All right.
These are a robotmade with a metamaterials.
And what is a metamaterial?
Is a special materialthat has some unique properties.
In our case, for example,instead of relying on the chemistry
of the material itself,we rely on the geometrical arrangement
(01:08):
on the material architectureand functionality.
We combine this amount of material
with some special actuation techniques
so that we would have propertiesthat are intrinsic of materials.
For example, materialsthat have deformations
or properties that we see, for example,in robots that have mechanisms
(01:29):
that move a rigid body modeand other things like that.
So we could have a materialthat behaves like a robot,
or a robot that behaves like a materialor a combination.
Somewhere in between. Yes.
Why is origamian interesting engineering approach?
Because origami is a fascinating technique
(01:51):
to transform just a single piece of paper,for example, with a single operation
only just folding into amazingthree dimensional configurations.
Or we can also use a combinationof folding and the cutting, for example.
And in general, in the literature,whenever you cut,
(02:12):
then you say, kirigami,but in general Origami?
And Kirigamis they are basicallythe same family of origami type system.
So what are some of the benefitsof using that approach with a robot.
In the nature paper,we indicate that before, for example,
there was a paper in science in 2017where they created a chiral system
(02:34):
that had somevery interesting properties
coupling the uniaxial deformationand the twist,
but that could only workwith small deformations.
What we did was to use what is called
the Kresling origamithat is a unit like this.
Then we created an equivalent,the rod based system,
(02:56):
and then we assembled them properly into columns
with a very precise controlof the chirality.
For example, this unithas the same chiral orientation.
And then we can also do the oppositeand we combine it
with some rotating square mechanismso that we could have a metamaterial
(03:19):
that would allow us to have multi-modaldeformations
and control this axial deformation
and that twist in a very unique ways.
Can we define the chiral aspect of it forpeople that don't know what that means?
The best example is our hands.
Our hands are a chiral system.
(03:39):
The one hand is the mirror
image of the other,however, is impossible to superposed them
and the then chirality is very much used
in many mechanical systems,biological systems, for example,
is an intrinsic ingredient in the DNA,RNA in biological modeling.
With.
Your modular chiral origamimetamaterials and the metarobot,
(04:04):
how might you control it?
Do you have to do it with your handsor are there other techniques?
Excellent question.
The most natural way to actuateis with the hands right?
For the systemto go to actual applications,
we need to have different meansof actuation.
In this paperwe use the two different ways.
(04:26):
One was a mechanical system.
That's what we have for example,in the instant machine
we have developed the special fixtures
that allow us to explore this uniaxial
and twist the coupling and the chirality.
The chirality is essential
in this system, besides the hand.
(04:48):
Then we use a mechanical system
and the final one,that's the one that we are very excited
about is the magnetic one,because the hand
involves, touching the end pointsof the Kresling tower.
The mechanical actuationalso involves contact.
It's like you put the systemin strong machine, there will be contact,
(05:10):
however, with the magnetic actuationis a non-contact system,
and then it makes the metamaterialor the robot extremely elegant,
very light, with unique properties
that if you would actuate in differentways,
would become more difficultto achieve those properties.
(05:31):
So now that we've set up kind of howit works, how you might control it,
what are some of the potential real worldapplications?
There are many applications,maybe one that relates,
for example, to civil engineering,thermal regulation of buildings.
Now it's very hot.
What do we do here in the officeor where do you are you turn on the air
(05:53):
conditioning, right?
Then in the winter what do we do?
We turn on the heater.
But the cooling and the heating system,in most of the houses
I know, including mine,they are two completely different things.
Now suppose that againthis is a prototype.
This would be a panel of a building.
Now if you just take a take a look here,you can see that
(06:13):
the dominant color that you see is black.
Because this is a absorbing panel.
Then this can be used to heat the environment.
Now the same configuration.
For exampleif I go and I actuate now you can see that
in this regionthe dominant color is white.
Right? There is very little black.
(06:34):
And then a if I keep for example,
if I really want to cool the entire thing,I keep actuating them.
And what we have shown in in the paperis that this is exactly this system
that can vary from 27 degree
centigrade to 70°C.
When a black dominates the solar absorbingpanel, then the temperature is higher.
(06:58):
When the white dominates,then we have a cooling effect
and then the temperature reduces.
This is one application, and there aremany others that we indicate in the paper.
Robotics. Right.
Metamaterials also information encryption.
And we have one examplebecause each unit has a folding state
(07:21):
that we can call here zeroor deploy this state one.
And then they can combine.
And then we can control the bits of
the Kresling units in many differentconfigurations that would lead
to a mechanism for programable
information encryption and,something that,
(07:43):
we are very excited about is,
the noncommutative, states of matter.
If, we pick up a piece of rubberand we fix it on the left and the on
the right hand side, we twist in one way
counterclockwise and then clockwise,
then it will come back,to the original configuration.
(08:06):
But because, the sequence of actuation
will matter if we invert that sequenceinstead of doing,
let's say clockwise firstand then counter clockwise,
then we do clockwiseand then counterclockwise,
the configuration of the systemmight be different.
So I want to refer back to yourheating panel example that you showed.
(08:27):
Because I thinkthat really connected the dots
at least in my thinking, for how you couldpotentially have a magnet system
where you could flip a switch,
and if these were all on the sideof a building
or something, it could dramatically changethe experience inside the building.
What you said
is a very good idea, but in a building,if you create a magnetic system,
it can interfere with cell phones,with other things.
(08:49):
The waves and so on.
And then what we didwas to create a mechanical system
with one degree of freedom that couldactivate all these units at the same time.
What scalewould they need to be for a building?
Would you want them much larger?
Yes. We only have, a prototype,the scale of my hand.
For a building, then this would be onthe scale of, the wall.
(09:12):
Right? Several meters.
But again, that's what technology transferwould be, to transfer things
that we develop in the laboratoryto a commercial scale application.
Then,we would have to design the units to be
as minimally invasive as possibleso that you don't use too much space.
One way that would make it easy to use,for example,
(09:35):
is to have italways on its maximum capability,
although you can have intermediate states,but then the actuation
would be more complicated.
But, if we want to actuate all of themat once, this makes sense because,
for example, right now it's really hot,sheet metal is in your house.
You want to have the maximum coolingthat you can get.
(09:56):
That would be the white surface. Right.
And in the winterthat would be the opposite.
I would like to segue intosome of your other work from here.
And I know you're working with the conceptof tensegrity with metamaterials now.
Can you explain a little bit of whatthat might be?
We have been working for a long time
in trying to create, duality theorywhere, when, we have an origami
(10:20):
like this one that, is based on shells,we would have
an interpretation of this origamiin terms of a tensegrity.
What is a tensegrity?
We like what is called a classone tensegrity.
The best example would be a soccer ball,
because, we are having now,the soccer championships.
Right.
(10:40):
And there will be the WorldCup in the future, then
the analogy between a tensegrityand a soccer ball is the following.
For example,if we have a spherical tensegrity,
we would have cables that would be tension
that this representsthe membrane of the soccer ball.
Then inside we would have columnsthat would be compression.
(11:02):
And this would be an analog to the airthat keeps the soccer ball inflated.
Okay.
We are presently working on a theorythat we call
invariant dual mechanics of tensegrityand origami.
This is a work in progressthat allow us, for example,
if our theory is rightand if it works by understanding,
(11:24):
for example, origami, we could createsome new tensegrities and vice versa.
By understanding the tensegrity,we could create a new origami systems.
Although we started this researchthinking only about regular structures
that are, very regularthat have polygonal formations and so on.
Also, this offers us a mechanismto create irregular structures.
(11:49):
Structures like the ones the ants do,for example, extremely irregular.
That's what we are working on right now.
We are very excited about this dualitybetween origami and tensegrity.
Thinking about the ant structure,
what's the benefit of getting intoirregular structure with that concept?
For example, one idea is that we can havestructures that are very regular
(12:14):
and they will give ussome, set of properties.
Most of these structures in our paper,they are regular.
However, sometimes we may have,
advantages that work with systemsthat are not structured, that are very
random.
For example, spinodal configuration,this is quite random.
(12:37):
However,there is some, logic in all of this.
For example,this here is a piece that is isotropic.
That means it has the same stiffnessin all the directions.
This one is a Lamella system.
This looks like the pages of a book.
In this direction it's very softbecause it's highly porous
(12:57):
and in this direction tends to be morestiff because it's highly anisotropic.
Exploringsimilar ideas can be very beneficial.
For example, in stochastic systemlike this, if you have system
that is regular and then for example,made of rods and you break one of them,
(13:17):
then you will create, a lot of stressconcentrations around that region,
and you can have a cascade defectand break the whole thing.
Here.
If you have, a local defect, then,these structures tend to be,
highly tolerant to local defectsand then this stochastic nature
helps you to get this type of property,like, insensitivity
(13:40):
to defects, resistance to fracture,to cracking, and similar properties.
And then we are exploringsome of these ideas in connection
with, disordered materialsand also ordered materials and,
trying to understand when it's beneficialto use one or the other
and trying to find the noveltiesin each one of them and the connections.
(14:04):
I was thinking of itin an architectural sense, with the rods,
how it might get into weird shapesthat maybe that works with the physics
of the weight distribution,with the building, and maybe not.
Well,they could also be used in architecture.
For example,look at the structures by Frank Gehry.
They are quite irregular, right?
We are working in smaller scales, more
(14:26):
in the material leveland the, the meso scale.
But even here Princeton,I am, looking for some students
in architecture that would be interestedto scale up some of these ideas.
Not exactly as we have them,but adapt them for structures
like the ones that you mention.
And this would be fascinating.
(14:46):
This is a great example of wherethe translation of the research can go.
Exactly, precisely.
And also another advantageis that in our lab,
most of the time we do smaller things,but in the architecture labs,
they have all the infrastructureto do big things and they scale things up.
This would be, a fascinatinginterdisciplinary work among, researchers,
(15:09):
professors in different departments,the students in different departments,
with a cross pollinisation of ideasthat can lead to unique things.
If a student is, hearing this interview
and is interested,can come and talk to me.
So thinking about translational researchand fundamental research,
I want to ask youabout your experience with NSF.
(15:32):
What difference has NSF supportmade to your career?
NSF is, tremendous.
And to my understanding,is the only agency with no mission.
For example, Department of Energy,everything is focused on energy,
Department of defense,the Army, the Navy, the Air Force.
It's all related to defense.
(15:53):
But the NSF, they are very openand they fund,
fundamental ideas, fundamental research.
A lot of the original developments, in my own research program,
they were, supported by NSF,like this paper in Nature.
And I hope that the support for NSFcontinues,
(16:15):
is a tremendously important agencyin the United States.
It works extremely well.
I also worked at NSF some time agoas a program director, between 2009
and 11, NSFis more than the sum of the parts of NSF
is bigger than the whole,because NSF is structured
in many different divisions, directoratesand related to different areas.
(16:40):
But it also connectsvery well with the other agencies
like the NIH for health related research
with the Airforce, the Navy, the DOE, DODand all these agencies.
And at the end, the way I see is that thethe sum of the parts
is much bigger than the wholeand the NSF provides this unique vision
(17:01):
where, fundamental research in any area
is appreciated and welcome and also leads
to applications that allow you to connectwith other agencies.
For example, translating some of thefundamental research to an application.
NSF is amazing.
You know, it had a tremendous impactin my career, with no NSF
(17:21):
a lot of my best work,including this one I just talked to
you probably, we will never know, but,
probably would not be done or would havebeen very difficult to be doing.
NSF is amazing. Amazing.
The last question I want to ask you today,as you mentioned, that you're working
on some tensegrity materialsfor your next project.
But I want to ask you kind of broadly,
(17:43):
where do you see your workgoing in the next few years?
It has, the, the duality between,origami and tensegrity.
I think, this opens up tremendous.
If this worksand this is a work in progress,
but if the ideas that we have, work,this will offer a new paradigm
in structural and material designfor ordered and disordered materials.
(18:07):
Another area that we are, very excitedabout is, that we started to work in.
This Nature paperis the non commutative states of matter.
Okay.
And then, exploring these concepts of chirality
and non commutativityto create, for example, unique
robotic arms or robotic legthat would become lighter, more efficient
(18:31):
and more controllableby exploring the intrinsic,
architecture of the materialor the structural system.
And another ideathat we have, it's very excited,
but this is a work in progress,is, the idea to create origami
state machines for programable logicand memory that extends,
(18:54):
the preliminary ideas in this paperfor programable information encryption.
This is an interesting area,the idea that you could use that
for encryption and codesas a physical thing is interesting.
And the one of the key ideas to make,these origami state machine work
is, to be able to actuate itin a very sophisticated way
(19:16):
and in a non invasive way
by means of the magnetic fields,because you need no contact.
Ff this is successful,this is, system that cannot be hacked.
If it is electronic,then, this depends on the smarter hacker.
Right?
But this one has a mechanical component,in theory could not be hacked.
Right?
(19:36):
Maybe like a combination lock,
if you did it the right ways,you could figure it out.
But really, you’d need to know what it is.
Exactly.
For example, we are doingsome preliminary work in the lab.
We can do this state machine,
with thousands of combinationsor millions of combinations.
And then how are you going to find theright one, you know, it’s very unlikely.
(19:57):
Special thanks to Glaucio Paulino.
For The Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
Watch video versions
of these conversations on the NSF YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program,
share with a friend and considerleaving a review.
Discover about the U.S.
National Science Foundationis advancing research at nsf.gov.
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