January 13, 2025 • 27 mins
The U.S. National Science Foundation Regional Innovation Engines program was established to advance collaborative, use-inspired and translational research and technology development in key technology focus areas across the United States. In this episode of the "NSF's Discovery Files" podcast, Hollie Mackey, CEO of The North Dakota Advanced Agriculture Technology Engine, discusses developing the next-generation farming workforce and how the unique conditions of North Dakota make it an ideal test bed for agricultural technologies.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
In January of 2024.
The U.S.
National Science Foundation
Regional Innovation Engines,or NSF Engines Program, was established
to advance collaborative use, inspiredand translational research and technology
development in key technologyfocus areas across the United States.
(00:26):
One of the ten inaugural NSF Enginesis the North Dakota Advanced
Agriculture Technology Engine.
The group aims to create an innovationecosystem
focused on optimizingcrop growth in the North Dakota region.
We're joined by Holly
Mackey, CEO of the North DakotaAdvanced Agriculture Technology Engine.
Professor Mackey,thank you so much for joining me today.
Thank you so much for having me.
So I'd like to start
(00:47):
with a little bit of background,and I want to know
how you got interested in agriculture.
You know, I get that question a lot.
My interest in agriculturereally stems from a commitment
and a desire to think about the ways that
rural communities, tribal communities,right, communities
that are typically not thought of indominant conversations
(01:07):
can get brought into conversationsso we can empower those communities.
So for me, agriculture is deeply connectedto self-determination,
to sovereignty, to economic developmentat the local level
that allows our children to stay inthe communities in which they were born.
It allows families
who want to stay together from multiplegenerations across time, right?
(01:29):
Living in close enough proximitythat they can do so with one another.
And so for me, on that personal level,it's really about that.
How do we think about the waysthat communities and food
are so tightly connected?
Because we know that they are,but we don't think about it.
But from a broader level,I'm also very interested in agriculture
and have become increasingly so justthinking about food as national security.
(01:51):
So when we think about food systems,resilient food systems,
the ways that climate change,
right, and sociopolitical forcesare really influencing
the ways that we think about foodand our ability to feed ourselves
mean they should be of interestto everybody.
Everybody really should careabout agriculture,
because food securityis national security.
And so as as the worldbecomes increasingly
(02:12):
unstable and contentiousin many ways, right.
We don't know what to expect.
So whether that's a job,political struggle,
whether that is natural disasters,whether that is climate change,
we really have to think about it.
So there's an existential componentto agriculture.
To me, that is really fascinating toto think about.
And how can we ensure that people havewhat they need to to thrive?
(02:33):
We want to make surethat we have healthy families.
But then there's that local levelof every family wants to provide
for its children.
Every community
wants to have opportunitiesto eat healthy, nutritious food.
We have to thinkabout the health implications.
We have to think about reallyall of the pieces that come into it.
And so,you know, when we talk about the advanced
(02:53):
agriculture technologyengine, people say like, oh, it's crops.
And it is, but it's so much morebecause food is such an integral component
to our lives.
And so much of that food is producedinternationally now.
And I think a lot of people aren't awareof how much is imported.
They are not.
And they're also not aware of
how much of what they see growingwhen they're driving down the interstate.
Right.
Is used for manufacturing, is used for,you know, ethanol, right.
(03:16):
So just because you see this beautifulcornfield
doesn't mean thatthat's there for you to eat, right?
I had a funny yetnot funny experience more recently
where we were out in a soybean fieldand I was talking to
some of our colleagues and I'm like,
oh, well,can I just try one of these soybeans?
Right. Like it's delicious.
And he's like,not that, well, don't do it.
Don't eat those things. Right.
(03:37):
Because their format is actuallyand I think that the general public
doesn't know that in North Dakota,we're a really unique state.
And I think thatthis is why the engine is so important.
We're one of the states that leadsthe nation and public crops, meaning
not corn, not soybeans.
So crops that are
are not really being investedin by a large industry for the most part.
(03:57):
And from all of those public crops,many of them are edible.
And so we're really thinkingabout the ways to tap into the public crop
market.
Think about the ways that we can driveeconomic development at the local level,
so we can increase the numberof food crops that are available,
and then connect that over into differenttypes of agricultural enterprises
related to manufacturingor transportation or, you know, we
(04:19):
we we haven't even talked about,you know, livestock yet.
And so there's a number of waysfor us to grow.
But and that really is a unique pieceto North Dakota
that people might not understand.
We have a short growing seasonwith a wide range of climate varieties,
different types of soil.
So North Dakota does in fact mimicalmost all of the different types
of growing regionsthat you can find across the country.
(04:41):
And so we're an excellent
place for testbeds or an excellent placeto think about climate resiliency.
And what does it mean for a shortgrowing season?
What does it meanwhen you have rain? Right.
What happens in all of thesedifferent scenarios. Right.
It really changes the amount of outputor the kinds of things you can get.
Yeah, it's like soil conditions.
So we sort of set upwhat the regional innovation engine is.
Can you talk a little bit about the goals?
(05:03):
I know you mentioned the community
and one of the goals is really workforcedevelopment.
How are you guys addressing that issue.
So we have a multiple prong strategyfor that.
When we're talking about workforce
we first have to think aboutwhat does it mean.
So we often share with people that,you know, in order to kind of understand
our engineyou need to become farms. Fluent, right.
(05:23):
Food systems adapted for resiliency andmaximize security is is our name farms.
And so when we're thinkingabout workforce, we're thinking about
career level jobs.
We're thinking about economic independenceand providing people pathways
and opportunitiesthat allow them to become self-sufficient,
economically independent,and to provide for them
(05:44):
their families in the waythat they feel most comfortable.
So we're not talking about generatingmore migrant worker jobs right now.
Those are important jobs.
And if that's a jobthat a person wants to do,
we will certainly create a pathwaythere as well.
But what we really want to dois think about what are the technologies
being developed today,
and then how can we workwith local communities,
whether that's the tribal colleges,
(06:05):
whether that's communitycolleges, public schools, right?
Nonprofit organizations,how can we work with them to develop
the curriculum, perhaps, or to to identifywhat are the skills that are going to
be necessary once that technology launchesto keep that workforce in place.
So an example of thismight make it more contextualized,
you know, again, where North Dakota.
(06:27):
And so when
people are talking about workforcedevelopment and jobs, right.
You might say, well,we want 10,000 new jobs here, right?
We have less than a million peoplein our state.
Right.
It's is highly unlikelythat we're going to create 10,000 new jobs
in, you know, even the largest town,right, in North Dakota.
So we're really thinking about itmore incrementally in terms
of like five new jobsor perhaps ten new jobs.
(06:49):
So if we know that we've goneinto a community, and a community
is interested in solvingfor a specific problem related to ag tech
that will allow them to become moresuccessful in agricultural enterprises,
we can then come in with our workforcedevelopment teams
and think aboutwhat's going to be necessary
by the time this is launchedfor the workforce to be prepared,
we can then, for example, workwith the tribal college to make sure
(07:11):
that they have the programing in placeso the students have the opportunity
to complete that programby the time that technology launches.
And so it's really a wraparoundservice model where we're able to do that.
And similarly in our workforce,we're working with the North Dakota State
University extension and extensionhas an office in every single county.
And so that provides us pathwaysto really get into communities, understand
(07:32):
what people want and identify the gaps
that are in the community,perhaps what what resources are there,
and then specifically tailor,along with the different types
of chambers of commerce and the differentpeople involved as to what people need.
Some of the people I've talked to thatare working in the agriculture industry.
There's a little bit of a curve
getting kind of the next generationof younger people interested.
(07:53):
Do you find that to be a challenge?
How are you guys trying to capturethe imagination of younger people?
It is a challenge.
I think it's a language challenge.
And we often ask, or maybe my team doesn'twant to take credit for the
we part of this.
I often ask like, how do you make ag tech
sexy to an 18 year old,practically speaking, right.
(08:13):
And I have a 23 yearold and I have a 26 year old,
and they are incredibly intelligentyoung men.
I know what they're interested in.
It is not agriculture.
Since the beginning of this award,as they become closer and closer
into what we're doing, and they understandthat we're talking about
drones, right?
We'retalking about the internet of things.
(08:34):
We're talking about sensors,we're talking about lidar.
We're talking about satellitesthat can read soil moisture,
all of these thingsthat nobody ever thinks about.
So when you say agriculture,you think about perhaps
you know,one of your relatives out on a combine
in September when it's hot,you know, just like hanging out.
And it's not that anymore.
And we provide opportunitiesfor them to see
(08:55):
that there are all of these pathwaysthat are not what it is you think of.
But even in those paradigmswhere what you think of is real.
So our our growers are of course, right.
Sitting on combines, getting into one ofthose combine say looks much different.
Right? Right.
They're run on electronicsin a way that is much different.
You know,
we work with growers who are sending usideas on different types of technology
(09:19):
or companies that they would be interestedin while they're combining, because
they have all of this at their fingertips,do all of these things at the same time.
And so one, we know that the populationis aging out in terms of the family farm.
Yes. In North Dakota, we're really lucky.
We don't have to think about corporatefarming
and peoplecoming in and buying up those farms
because we have laws in placeto protect that.
(09:41):
But the goal of the engine is to ensurethat whether it's a small scale
grower, midsize grow or a large scalegrower, all of them have the opportunity
to think about the waysthat they can prevent losing their farms.
Right?
Prevent losing their income,their family legacies
by being able to invest in technology andbring their families along for the ride.
(10:04):
And so it might not be that,you know, your child
now is going to take over the farm,but it may very well be that
your children might take overyour farm as a corporate entity.
And they all have different rolesthat they're playing in that
and understanding
the way that technology plays inand how you can still stay connected
even if you're not physically connected tothe land, is an important component.
(10:24):
You mentioned crops earlierand we're talking about technology
and how it's changing things,as you can monitor moisture levels
and the things that are in the soildifferently.
Is that changingwhat people are wanting to grow
like are the context of farmschanging in that way?
So without wanting to speakfor all growers, right.
Clearly, I want to be careful of that.
(10:44):
I think that farms are businessand people take that for granted.
Like these are businessesthat are incredibly high risk, right?
So you don't have the luxuryof taking a chance in April on something
that could completely pan outand be a good nothing sandwich plan
by September, because that's your entireincome for the year.
(11:04):
And I say that because growers ask us
to remind people that this is a businessjust like any other business.
You will see, right?You're not in it for the practice.
You're in it for the profit.
And so to that end,a lot of growers are really
they're growing things that they knowthat they can make money on. Right.
Which is why we see this really big shift,right, in corn
and soybeans in placesthat typically had not been.
(11:26):
To that end, I have to answer the question
by predicated it with agricultureas a business.
Right.
And so what we seeare the traditional growers,
you know, are still growing the thingsthey had, like if it's been wheat, right,
in western North Dakota,whether that's, you know, corn in eastern
North Dakota,those things are kind of still in play.
But, I mean, I talk a little bit aboutthe things that we're seeing differently.
(11:49):
So North Dakota leadsthe nation in driving production.
It's a sizable export now.
We export a lot to China for soybeans.
We export all over the place. Right.
But what we're seeing ispeople are more interested now in
not only where their food comes from,but how it's grown.
Right.
And I think that that is shiftingfor our small scale growers
(12:10):
and our small scale farmersto think about the ways that they can work
with specialty crops,perhaps they can work with
some of the cropsthat are reclaimed. Right.
So the tribes that we're working with,
they're not interestedin all of these new seeds.
What they want is they want to go backto the original varieties
that they had given to the settlercolonial communities in the first place,
(12:30):
and regenerate,like the nutritional values
and the community connectionto those original heirloom foods.
We have a tribal nation, NorthDakota nation, that they have now
like, built the largest zero carbongreenhouse in the nation.
And part of the goal of thatis to really think about the ways
that we can reclaimthe traditional foods of our people,
(12:50):
knowing full well thatthe nutritional values are higher.
Right.
There was a reasonwhy we ate the way we ate,
and there's a reason why we haveso many health problems on reservations.
Now, if you take that core diet out,that's a problem.
What we're also seeing, and some of thisis because we have, you know, Gabe Brown,
the dirt, the soil author in our state,he's been really instrumental
in helping communitiesthink about sustainability.
(13:13):
Right.
So we know that traditional agriculturepractices, as they they exist
currently from a Western lens,have depleted the soil of vital nutrients.
We know that there'sjust a lot of problems, unintended
consequences, right, of technologiesthat were developed previously.
And so we see a lot of small scale growersand even large scale growers
(13:34):
thinking about regenerative.
And how do you replenish the soil?
How do you ensure that you havethat future for your family?
And then along with that,we're working on some really, really just
meaningful projects withand standing Rock nation with a nonprofit.
They're called Rosie.
We're working with them on bisonremediation.
So sustainable agriculturepredicated on the natural ecosystem
(13:59):
between the bison like the land,
the soil, right, all of the nutrients,and then what grows there.
And so through that work, we've been ableto one think about the ways that
all of our food systems are connected,but also think about what is the science.
Right.So it's National Science Foundation.
They always want to knowabout the technology.
And I always argue in our communitieslike this is wisdom
(14:22):
from time immemorial,like there's nothing new.
But now people are starting to realizeit was smart.
And so they had this moment in time wherekind of indigenous knowledge was ignored.
But now, through the work of peoplelike Gabe Brown, through the work of
things like Wosu as a nonprofit,we're starting to see like there's
actually a benefit to it, not just becauseit's indigenous knowledge,
(14:44):
but there's benefit to itin terms of increasing nutritional value,
increasing yield, ensuring
that you can plant year after year,making sure that we have everything
that we need to be self-sustainingwithin our own local communities.
And so this was the longest answerin the world, right?
I realize to your question,it's just not simple.
It's just not simple.
(15:05):
So people are doing onewhat makes sense monetarily,
but two, what makes sense for them,like for their health, for their wellness.
Right.
So we have communities that just wantto feed their own communities.
They're going to focus on the cropsthat feed their communities.
Right?
We have people who are selling to largemarkets.
They're going to focus on those crops.
But then you have an interesting groupthat are really playing around
(15:25):
with some new ideas.
For instance,there's a company called New Slicer
that that I was recentlyhas listening to on the future podcast,
and they're going back into insteadof the chickpeas that we know of, right.
They're finding wild chickpeasthat are higher in protein values
and thinking about
how can we cultivate these on bigger farmsas part of a rotation crop.
And and so I think that peopleare getting creative.
(15:47):
So half of that answerwas going to be my next question is,
oh, it's fantastic that you got it.
I wanted to ask you about that leveragingindigenous knowledge or native knowledge,
because that's one of the thingsthat's unique about your engine.
I'm trying to think of what the good wayto ask the question is.
Ultimately, is there a challengefolding that knowledge in
or working with the groupsin the confines of that NSF engine?
(16:08):
Yes and no indigenous knowledge.
And I think really through the Bidenadministration, we've seen a lot of push
right, on upholdingsovereignty rights, right,
that traditionally ecological knowledge,right.
Guidance that had come out,there's been a lot of things
that have come out in the last few years
that have really laid the frameworkfor why indigenous knowledge matters,
(16:31):
and I believe NSFwas actually thinking about it before
and was able to take this momentin time under an administration
that was thinking about it as well,
to really do some self-reflection.
And so my sense from the National ScienceFoundation, both,
you know, previouslyand then now is that the National Science
(16:52):
Foundation has been on a trajectoryfor quite some time to really think about
how to incorporate and value and learn
from indigenous knowledge systems.
And others might disagree with me.
I'm certainly like,
I know this is going to be up on YouTube,and and if you've had other experiences
and you're watching right thenI'm sorry and has not been my experience.
(17:12):
And I don't make light of that.
But I do think that there'sa level of respect
for indigenous knowledgethat is still lacking, perhaps.
And it's not because peopleare intentionally disrespectful
in the same ways that, you know,if I were to take you into my community,
you might say something inadvertentlybecause you simply don't know, right?
Yeah.
And and I think the challengesfor most tribal communities,
(17:36):
like we are so fluent in white, like,we know you're so like,
we know how to walk into your communities,we know how to do all of that.
And sometimes we just expect you tomaybe Google something before you come out
and figure it out to,
because we can't fall back on itand say, like, we're just unfamiliar
with your cultural customs, right?
It doesn't work that way.
You can't tell NSF, like, I'm sorry,I don't understand your patchy.
(17:57):
That'swe don't have one of those in our world.
And so I think the challengeis getting all of the personnel
to a point of understanding,because I think everyone deeply cares.
My sense of NSF is that people deeplycare and respect indigenous knowledge
all the way from,you know, the director to,
you know, when I have these really
great conversations right in the studio,the last time I was here with all of you,
(18:19):
and, you know, when I'm hanging outwith the security folks downstairs
finding outwhat's going on in their world,
because I'mjust kind of one of those people.
So I think people care.
But it's an issue in the engine as well.
And so your question is a little bitbroader is how do you how do you help
people understand that there is more thanone way to see the world?
How do you help them understandthat simply because you believe
(18:41):
something is true doesn't meanthat two things can't be true at once.
And that's part of what we're doing inour engine,
is helping to build thiscross-cultural understanding
and in many ways, with NSF, in termsof how we're working with them, is
how do you help themsee a positive sort of notion of science
doesn't work with an intuitive senseof indigenous knowledge.
(19:03):
How is it that, like,if it can be measured, it's real.
If it's felt, it's not.
And there's a concept called,you know, holographic epistemologies
within sort of indigenous sciencethat it's where
there's a spiritual component as wellas, right, these other components.
And, and so I think we're getting there.
I feel more supported in NSF
(19:25):
as a native scholar, right,leading a native engine than we ever have.
But the engines are asking for socialchange coupled with economic development.
And I don't know necessarilythat any of the engines
are going to be able to circlethat square quickly.
On how to meetboth of those goals are just happens
to be a little bit different,because our goals are social change
(19:48):
that are really driveninto like rural economic development
and tribal knowledge.
But everybody is kindof having those same things.
Like we talk about the enginesas almost an experiment
within an experimentbecause we know there's something there.
We know they're going to be successful.
All of the engines knowthey're going to be successful.
NSF knowsthat they're going to be successful.
(20:09):
What has come out of the engines are thesevery unique, contextualized situations.
But I don't think NSF has had to accountfor before.
And the ways in which they are respondingand providing support
and listening has been remarkable to me.
I know we're closing in on time,and the last question I want to ask you
(20:30):
today is about the next couple of years.
What are you excited aboutas the engine process continues?
Like what?
What are you looking forward toin North Dakota specifically?
So many things.
So many things. So
one, we're nine
months into this actually,like just ten in our minds.
We're already at year three, right?
(20:52):
We got this award in Marchand we're laying the groundwork.
We're building that muscle.
We're making sure we have the operationalstructure that we need to be successful.
We're really shoring up on all the thingsthat, you know, NSF has provided
some really excellent guidanceon how to accomplish.
That's no problem in our minds.
We're already at three becausewe're so excited for the next steps.
We're really excitedto think about the ways that we can bring
(21:15):
some of the researchersthat we've met across the country
doing really cutting edgesorts of technology work into communities,
to work with them to help identifywhat might be useful for our communities.
Right.
So really ramping up our ideaof what use inspired research looks like
and how we can drive changeand how we can do it quickly.
Right.
That's one of the piecesthat is really exciting for me is there's
(21:37):
just so many people with great ideasand tapping into those different ideas
and figuring out what worksand what works across the engines.
You know, we've we've had an opportunityas CEOs to talk with one another
and we see similarities. Right.
And I think that there's ways that theengine can actually support one another.
So that's the firstpiece is really thinking through
how does research make a differencefor society.
(21:58):
Right.Because that's the big question. Right.
And and for meI think if it doesn't why do it.
Like if it's not going to solve a problemor improve our lives.
So I do it, thenI'm sure there's knowledge for knowledge
sake that matters, right?
Like I think maybe like superstring theoryor like all the theoretical physics,
it brings me great valuebecause I like to read about it,
but I don't know practicallywhat you do with it.
(22:18):
Physicists probably do, but I don't.
And so there's that piece.
The other piece is we're really thinkingabout economic development.
So we were able to enterinto a partnership.
We just signed an MoUwith a company called AG launch this week.
And AG launchis focused on a grower centric model
(22:41):
that allows growersto actually have equity stakes
in the startupstesting the technology on their farms.
And this sounds common sense.
You think. It's good incentiveto get people to drive.
But typically that's not the case.
I growers provide a lot of space in inand you know, maybe they might get
a little bit of a lease for,for their land
or they might get a break on thetechnology in the first year,
(23:03):
whatever that looks like.
It's not a long termeconomic strategy. Right.
And when you think about the waysthat all of us
want to provide for our families,we don't want to do it
like hit or miss every other year.
If I happen to have the right landthat this company needs.
And so what AG launch doesis, is they've created
a grower board, which is exactlywhat it sounds like, right?
Growers who make the decisionson the different types of startups.
(23:27):
So the startups pitch to growers,
growers decidewhat might be useful to them,
and then they decidewho's going to test it. Right.
I'm a centralizing for the sake of timehere.
But the nice thing aboutthat is then the equity stake
stays in the community.
So we're talking about drivingrural economic development.
And you can't do that if all of the profitcoming from this technology belongs
(23:51):
to a corporation, that then leavesthe community when it's done being tested.
Right.
So growers have the opportunityto have that
equity stake, meaning thatthat money stays in the community.
And we want to do this in 200mile square radius is because we know, you
know, that's approximatelythe square mile radius.
We need to also ensure food security.
And so we're working with AG lunchnow to stand up a native grower network.
(24:14):
So they'll be a boardthat it's just native growers
that are helping withwhat might be adopted.
There.
And adoptionbecomes the sticky point. Right.
So you can make a super shiny whiz bang.
But if growers don't need it,it doesn't matter.
So we're solving for two problems economicdevelopment, rural economic prosperity
coupled with adoptionbecause the growers are the ones
who are identifying what they might needand what might be useful.
(24:37):
Right.
And so it's, you know,agriculture is a relationship game.
It's all about understandingand it's all about trust.
And so we've we've really thought abouthow can we engage in a shared risk model,
ag launch grower equityand then working with local communities
for investment as well.
So another example is we're workingwith a nonprofit
(24:59):
who is also interestedin buying and roommate creation.
It's going to be happeningin a specific location.
We have some R&D money that we can useright, to invest into that.
And then this native nonprofit has said,this is something
that's really important to me, too,and this is my community.
We'd like to invest here as well.
And so then you have ag lunch coming infrom this side.
So when you're thinking about that publicprivate partnership
(25:21):
and philanthropy and governmentand private industry, right.
Those are the things that drivesustainability.
And I would say the last thing is
we'rereally interested in how we can create
opportunity for tribal communitiesacross the country.
We are the only engine that hasan integrated tribal component by design.
(25:43):
And we have really done our research.
And we know rural communities and tribalcommunities are very, very similar.
Right.
And so when I say tribal communities,they're also rural communities.
What isn't happeningis opportunities are not being provided
to tribal communities across the countryin the same ways that they are
within our region of servewith our engine.
(26:04):
And so we also this week
signed a formal MoU with the coalitionof Large Land Based Tribes,
which is a national organizationthat provides advocacy and support
and resources for tribesthat have over 100,000 acres of land.
So approximately 50tribes over 20 reservations
(26:25):
currently are members of the Coalitionof Large Land based tribes.
And so through that partnership,we want to make sure that we provide
opportunities for other tribal communitiesto also be involved.
Right? Like food is food.
We all need to eatand we all want to feed our families.
And it also allows usthen to have those testbeds for startups
and different types of products
and different types of growing conditionsthat allow us to kind of pivot and move.
(26:49):
And as that last piece, right,it also provides
other engines an opportunity to understandwhat tribes care about.
Because we have batteries, right?
We have energy, we have water,we have natural resource management.
The tribes are all very concernedwith those things as well.
And it is one of the NSF's goalsto increase tribal engagement
in an authentic, meaningful way that'srespectful and has a reciprocity to it.
(27:12):
This is one way that we can helpNSF advance their goals.
We can connect into our partnershipsand make those introductions,
and we're sure that our colleagues will beexcellent partners with the tribes.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
It is great to hear about this firsthand.
Special thanks to Holly Mackey.
For the Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
You can watch video versions
of these conversations on our YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
(27:34):
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program,
share with a friendand consider leaving a review.
Discover all.
The U.S.
National ScienceFoundation is advancing research@nsf.gov.
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
In January of 2024.
The U.S.
National Science Foundation
Regional Innovation Engines,or NSF Engines Program, was established
to advance collaborative use, inspiredand translational research and technology
development in key technologyfocus areas across the United States.
(00:26):
One of the ten inaugural NSF Enginesis the North Dakota Advanced
Agriculture Technology Engine.
The group aims to create an innovationecosystem
focused on optimizingcrop growth in the North Dakota region.
We're joined by Holly
Mackey, CEO of the North DakotaAdvanced Agriculture Technology Engine.
Professor Mackey,thank you so much for joining me today.
Thank you so much for having me.
So I'd like to start
(00:47):
with a little bit of background,and I want to know
how you got interested in agriculture.
You know, I get that question a lot.
My interest in agriculturereally stems from a commitment
and a desire to think about the ways that
rural communities, tribal communities,right, communities
that are typically not thought of indominant conversations
(01:07):
can get brought into conversationsso we can empower those communities.
So for me, agriculture is deeply connectedto self-determination,
to sovereignty, to economic developmentat the local level
that allows our children to stay inthe communities in which they were born.
It allows families
who want to stay together from multiplegenerations across time, right?
(01:29):
Living in close enough proximitythat they can do so with one another.
And so for me, on that personal level,it's really about that.
How do we think about the waysthat communities and food
are so tightly connected?
Because we know that they are,but we don't think about it.
But from a broader level,I'm also very interested in agriculture
and have become increasingly so justthinking about food as national security.
(01:51):
So when we think about food systems,resilient food systems,
the ways that climate change,
right, and sociopolitical forcesare really influencing
the ways that we think about foodand our ability to feed ourselves
mean they should be of interestto everybody.
Everybody really should careabout agriculture,
because food securityis national security.
And so as as the worldbecomes increasingly
(02:12):
unstable and contentiousin many ways, right.
We don't know what to expect.
So whether that's a job,political struggle,
whether that is natural disasters,whether that is climate change,
we really have to think about it.
So there's an existential componentto agriculture.
To me, that is really fascinating toto think about.
And how can we ensure that people havewhat they need to to thrive?
(02:33):
We want to make surethat we have healthy families.
But then there's that local levelof every family wants to provide
for its children.
Every community
wants to have opportunitiesto eat healthy, nutritious food.
We have to thinkabout the health implications.
We have to think about reallyall of the pieces that come into it.
And so,you know, when we talk about the advanced
(02:53):
agriculture technologyengine, people say like, oh, it's crops.
And it is, but it's so much morebecause food is such an integral component
to our lives.
And so much of that food is producedinternationally now.
And I think a lot of people aren't awareof how much is imported.
They are not.
And they're also not aware of
how much of what they see growingwhen they're driving down the interstate.
Right.
Is used for manufacturing, is used for,you know, ethanol, right.
(03:16):
So just because you see this beautifulcornfield
doesn't mean thatthat's there for you to eat, right?
I had a funny yetnot funny experience more recently
where we were out in a soybean fieldand I was talking to
some of our colleagues and I'm like,
oh, well,can I just try one of these soybeans?
Right. Like it's delicious.
And he's like,not that, well, don't do it.
Don't eat those things. Right.
(03:37):
Because their format is actuallyand I think that the general public
doesn't know that in North Dakota,we're a really unique state.
And I think thatthis is why the engine is so important.
We're one of the states that leadsthe nation and public crops, meaning
not corn, not soybeans.
So crops that are
are not really being investedin by a large industry for the most part.
(03:57):
And from all of those public crops,many of them are edible.
And so we're really thinkingabout the ways to tap into the public crop
market.
Think about the ways that we can driveeconomic development at the local level,
so we can increase the numberof food crops that are available,
and then connect that over into differenttypes of agricultural enterprises
related to manufacturingor transportation or, you know, we
(04:19):
we we haven't even talked about,you know, livestock yet.
And so there's a number of waysfor us to grow.
But and that really is a unique pieceto North Dakota
that people might not understand.
We have a short growing seasonwith a wide range of climate varieties,
different types of soil.
So North Dakota does in fact mimicalmost all of the different types
of growing regionsthat you can find across the country.
(04:41):
And so we're an excellent
place for testbeds or an excellent placeto think about climate resiliency.
And what does it mean for a shortgrowing season?
What does it meanwhen you have rain? Right.
What happens in all of thesedifferent scenarios. Right.
It really changes the amount of outputor the kinds of things you can get.
Yeah, it's like soil conditions.
So we sort of set upwhat the regional innovation engine is.
Can you talk a little bit about the goals?
(05:03):
I know you mentioned the community
and one of the goals is really workforcedevelopment.
How are you guys addressing that issue.
So we have a multiple prong strategyfor that.
When we're talking about workforce
we first have to think aboutwhat does it mean.
So we often share with people that,you know, in order to kind of understand
our engineyou need to become farms. Fluent, right.
(05:23):
Food systems adapted for resiliency andmaximize security is is our name farms.
And so when we're thinkingabout workforce, we're thinking about
career level jobs.
We're thinking about economic independenceand providing people pathways
and opportunitiesthat allow them to become self-sufficient,
economically independent,and to provide for them
(05:44):
their families in the waythat they feel most comfortable.
So we're not talking about generatingmore migrant worker jobs right now.
Those are important jobs.
And if that's a jobthat a person wants to do,
we will certainly create a pathwaythere as well.
But what we really want to dois think about what are the technologies
being developed today,
and then how can we workwith local communities,
whether that's the tribal colleges,
(06:05):
whether that's communitycolleges, public schools, right?
Nonprofit organizations,how can we work with them to develop
the curriculum, perhaps, or to to identifywhat are the skills that are going to
be necessary once that technology launchesto keep that workforce in place.
So an example of thismight make it more contextualized,
you know, again, where North Dakota.
(06:27):
And so when
people are talking about workforcedevelopment and jobs, right.
You might say, well,we want 10,000 new jobs here, right?
We have less than a million peoplein our state.
Right.
It's is highly unlikelythat we're going to create 10,000 new jobs
in, you know, even the largest town,right, in North Dakota.
So we're really thinking about itmore incrementally in terms
of like five new jobsor perhaps ten new jobs.
(06:49):
So if we know that we've goneinto a community, and a community
is interested in solvingfor a specific problem related to ag tech
that will allow them to become moresuccessful in agricultural enterprises,
we can then come in with our workforcedevelopment teams
and think aboutwhat's going to be necessary
by the time this is launchedfor the workforce to be prepared,
we can then, for example, workwith the tribal college to make sure
(07:11):
that they have the programing in placeso the students have the opportunity
to complete that programby the time that technology launches.
And so it's really a wraparoundservice model where we're able to do that.
And similarly in our workforce,we're working with the North Dakota State
University extension and extensionhas an office in every single county.
And so that provides us pathwaysto really get into communities, understand
(07:32):
what people want and identify the gaps
that are in the community,perhaps what what resources are there,
and then specifically tailor,along with the different types
of chambers of commerce and the differentpeople involved as to what people need.
Some of the people I've talked to thatare working in the agriculture industry.
There's a little bit of a curve
getting kind of the next generationof younger people interested.
(07:53):
Do you find that to be a challenge?
How are you guys trying to capturethe imagination of younger people?
It is a challenge.
I think it's a language challenge.
And we often ask, or maybe my team doesn'twant to take credit for the
we part of this.
I often ask like, how do you make ag tech
sexy to an 18 year old,practically speaking, right.
(08:13):
And I have a 23 yearold and I have a 26 year old,
and they are incredibly intelligentyoung men.
I know what they're interested in.
It is not agriculture.
Since the beginning of this award,as they become closer and closer
into what we're doing, and they understandthat we're talking about
drones, right?
We'retalking about the internet of things.
(08:34):
We're talking about sensors,we're talking about lidar.
We're talking about satellitesthat can read soil moisture,
all of these thingsthat nobody ever thinks about.
So when you say agriculture,you think about perhaps
you know,one of your relatives out on a combine
in September when it's hot,you know, just like hanging out.
And it's not that anymore.
And we provide opportunitiesfor them to see
(08:55):
that there are all of these pathwaysthat are not what it is you think of.
But even in those paradigmswhere what you think of is real.
So our our growers are of course, right.
Sitting on combines, getting into one ofthose combine say looks much different.
Right? Right.
They're run on electronicsin a way that is much different.
You know,
we work with growers who are sending usideas on different types of technology
(09:19):
or companies that they would be interestedin while they're combining, because
they have all of this at their fingertips,do all of these things at the same time.
And so one, we know that the populationis aging out in terms of the family farm.
Yes. In North Dakota, we're really lucky.
We don't have to think about corporatefarming
and peoplecoming in and buying up those farms
because we have laws in placeto protect that.
(09:41):
But the goal of the engine is to ensurethat whether it's a small scale
grower, midsize grow or a large scalegrower, all of them have the opportunity
to think about the waysthat they can prevent losing their farms.
Right?
Prevent losing their income,their family legacies
by being able to invest in technology andbring their families along for the ride.
(10:04):
And so it might not be that,you know, your child
now is going to take over the farm,but it may very well be that
your children might take overyour farm as a corporate entity.
And they all have different rolesthat they're playing in that
and understanding
the way that technology plays inand how you can still stay connected
even if you're not physically connected tothe land, is an important component.
(10:24):
You mentioned crops earlierand we're talking about technology
and how it's changing things,as you can monitor moisture levels
and the things that are in the soildifferently.
Is that changingwhat people are wanting to grow
like are the context of farmschanging in that way?
So without wanting to speakfor all growers, right.
Clearly, I want to be careful of that.
(10:44):
I think that farms are businessand people take that for granted.
Like these are businessesthat are incredibly high risk, right?
So you don't have the luxuryof taking a chance in April on something
that could completely pan outand be a good nothing sandwich plan
by September, because that's your entireincome for the year.
(11:04):
And I say that because growers ask us
to remind people that this is a businessjust like any other business.
You will see, right?You're not in it for the practice.
You're in it for the profit.
And so to that end,a lot of growers are really
they're growing things that they knowthat they can make money on. Right.
Which is why we see this really big shift,right, in corn
and soybeans in placesthat typically had not been.
(11:26):
To that end, I have to answer the question
by predicated it with agricultureas a business.
Right.
And so what we seeare the traditional growers,
you know, are still growing the thingsthey had, like if it's been wheat, right,
in western North Dakota,whether that's, you know, corn in eastern
North Dakota,those things are kind of still in play.
But, I mean, I talk a little bit aboutthe things that we're seeing differently.
(11:49):
So North Dakota leadsthe nation in driving production.
It's a sizable export now.
We export a lot to China for soybeans.
We export all over the place. Right.
But what we're seeing ispeople are more interested now in
not only where their food comes from,but how it's grown.
Right.
And I think that that is shiftingfor our small scale growers
(12:10):
and our small scale farmersto think about the ways that they can work
with specialty crops,perhaps they can work with
some of the cropsthat are reclaimed. Right.
So the tribes that we're working with,
they're not interestedin all of these new seeds.
What they want is they want to go backto the original varieties
that they had given to the settlercolonial communities in the first place,
(12:30):
and regenerate,like the nutritional values
and the community connectionto those original heirloom foods.
We have a tribal nation, NorthDakota nation, that they have now
like, built the largest zero carbongreenhouse in the nation.
And part of the goal of thatis to really think about the ways
that we can reclaimthe traditional foods of our people,
(12:50):
knowing full well thatthe nutritional values are higher.
Right.
There was a reasonwhy we ate the way we ate,
and there's a reason why we haveso many health problems on reservations.
Now, if you take that core diet out,that's a problem.
What we're also seeing, and some of thisis because we have, you know, Gabe Brown,
the dirt, the soil author in our state,he's been really instrumental
in helping communitiesthink about sustainability.
(13:13):
Right.
So we know that traditional agriculturepractices, as they they exist
currently from a Western lens,have depleted the soil of vital nutrients.
We know that there'sjust a lot of problems, unintended
consequences, right, of technologiesthat were developed previously.
And so we see a lot of small scale growersand even large scale growers
(13:34):
thinking about regenerative.
And how do you replenish the soil?
How do you ensure that you havethat future for your family?
And then along with that,we're working on some really, really just
meaningful projects withand standing Rock nation with a nonprofit.
They're called Rosie.
We're working with them on bisonremediation.
So sustainable agriculturepredicated on the natural ecosystem
(13:59):
between the bison like the land,
the soil, right, all of the nutrients,and then what grows there.
And so through that work, we've been ableto one think about the ways that
all of our food systems are connected,but also think about what is the science.
Right.So it's National Science Foundation.
They always want to knowabout the technology.
And I always argue in our communitieslike this is wisdom
(14:22):
from time immemorial,like there's nothing new.
But now people are starting to realizeit was smart.
And so they had this moment in time wherekind of indigenous knowledge was ignored.
But now, through the work of peoplelike Gabe Brown, through the work of
things like Wosu as a nonprofit,we're starting to see like there's
actually a benefit to it, not just becauseit's indigenous knowledge,
(14:44):
but there's benefit to itin terms of increasing nutritional value,
increasing yield, ensuring
that you can plant year after year,making sure that we have everything
that we need to be self-sustainingwithin our own local communities.
And so this was the longest answerin the world, right?
I realize to your question,it's just not simple.
It's just not simple.
(15:05):
So people are doing onewhat makes sense monetarily,
but two, what makes sense for them,like for their health, for their wellness.
Right.
So we have communities that just wantto feed their own communities.
They're going to focus on the cropsthat feed their communities.
Right?
We have people who are selling to largemarkets.
They're going to focus on those crops.
But then you have an interesting groupthat are really playing around
(15:25):
with some new ideas.
For instance,there's a company called New Slicer
that that I was recentlyhas listening to on the future podcast,
and they're going back into insteadof the chickpeas that we know of, right.
They're finding wild chickpeasthat are higher in protein values
and thinking about
how can we cultivate these on bigger farmsas part of a rotation crop.
And and so I think that peopleare getting creative.
(15:47):
So half of that answerwas going to be my next question is,
oh, it's fantastic that you got it.
I wanted to ask you about that leveragingindigenous knowledge or native knowledge,
because that's one of the thingsthat's unique about your engine.
I'm trying to think of what the good wayto ask the question is.
Ultimately, is there a challengefolding that knowledge in
or working with the groupsin the confines of that NSF engine?
(16:08):
Yes and no indigenous knowledge.
And I think really through the Bidenadministration, we've seen a lot of push
right, on upholdingsovereignty rights, right,
that traditionally ecological knowledge,right.
Guidance that had come out,there's been a lot of things
that have come out in the last few years
that have really laid the frameworkfor why indigenous knowledge matters,
(16:31):
and I believe NSFwas actually thinking about it before
and was able to take this momentin time under an administration
that was thinking about it as well,
to really do some self-reflection.
And so my sense from the National ScienceFoundation, both,
you know, previouslyand then now is that the National Science
(16:52):
Foundation has been on a trajectoryfor quite some time to really think about
how to incorporate and value and learn
from indigenous knowledge systems.
And others might disagree with me.
I'm certainly like,
I know this is going to be up on YouTube,and and if you've had other experiences
and you're watching right thenI'm sorry and has not been my experience.
(17:12):
And I don't make light of that.
But I do think that there'sa level of respect
for indigenous knowledgethat is still lacking, perhaps.
And it's not because peopleare intentionally disrespectful
in the same ways that, you know,if I were to take you into my community,
you might say something inadvertentlybecause you simply don't know, right?
Yeah.
And and I think the challengesfor most tribal communities,
(17:36):
like we are so fluent in white, like,we know you're so like,
we know how to walk into your communities,we know how to do all of that.
And sometimes we just expect you tomaybe Google something before you come out
and figure it out to,
because we can't fall back on itand say, like, we're just unfamiliar
with your cultural customs, right?
It doesn't work that way.
You can't tell NSF, like, I'm sorry,I don't understand your patchy.
(17:57):
That'swe don't have one of those in our world.
And so I think the challengeis getting all of the personnel
to a point of understanding,because I think everyone deeply cares.
My sense of NSF is that people deeplycare and respect indigenous knowledge
all the way from,you know, the director to,
you know, when I have these really
great conversations right in the studio,the last time I was here with all of you,
(18:19):
and, you know, when I'm hanging outwith the security folks downstairs
finding outwhat's going on in their world,
because I'mjust kind of one of those people.
So I think people care.
But it's an issue in the engine as well.
And so your question is a little bitbroader is how do you how do you help
people understand that there is more thanone way to see the world?
How do you help them understandthat simply because you believe
(18:41):
something is true doesn't meanthat two things can't be true at once.
And that's part of what we're doing inour engine,
is helping to build thiscross-cultural understanding
and in many ways, with NSF, in termsof how we're working with them, is
how do you help themsee a positive sort of notion of science
doesn't work with an intuitive senseof indigenous knowledge.
(19:03):
How is it that, like,if it can be measured, it's real.
If it's felt, it's not.
And there's a concept called,you know, holographic epistemologies
within sort of indigenous sciencethat it's where
there's a spiritual component as wellas, right, these other components.
And, and so I think we're getting there.
I feel more supported in NSF
(19:25):
as a native scholar, right,leading a native engine than we ever have.
But the engines are asking for socialchange coupled with economic development.
And I don't know necessarilythat any of the engines
are going to be able to circlethat square quickly.
On how to meetboth of those goals are just happens
to be a little bit different,because our goals are social change
(19:48):
that are really driveninto like rural economic development
and tribal knowledge.
But everybody is kindof having those same things.
Like we talk about the enginesas almost an experiment
within an experimentbecause we know there's something there.
We know they're going to be successful.
All of the engines knowthey're going to be successful.
NSF knowsthat they're going to be successful.
(20:09):
What has come out of the engines are thesevery unique, contextualized situations.
But I don't think NSF has had to accountfor before.
And the ways in which they are respondingand providing support
and listening has been remarkable to me.
I know we're closing in on time,and the last question I want to ask you
(20:30):
today is about the next couple of years.
What are you excited aboutas the engine process continues?
Like what?
What are you looking forward toin North Dakota specifically?
So many things.
So many things. So
one, we're nine
months into this actually,like just ten in our minds.
We're already at year three, right?
(20:52):
We got this award in Marchand we're laying the groundwork.
We're building that muscle.
We're making sure we have the operationalstructure that we need to be successful.
We're really shoring up on all the thingsthat, you know, NSF has provided
some really excellent guidanceon how to accomplish.
That's no problem in our minds.
We're already at three becausewe're so excited for the next steps.
We're really excitedto think about the ways that we can bring
(21:15):
some of the researchersthat we've met across the country
doing really cutting edgesorts of technology work into communities,
to work with them to help identifywhat might be useful for our communities.
Right.
So really ramping up our ideaof what use inspired research looks like
and how we can drive changeand how we can do it quickly.
Right.
That's one of the piecesthat is really exciting for me is there's
(21:37):
just so many people with great ideasand tapping into those different ideas
and figuring out what worksand what works across the engines.
You know, we've we've had an opportunityas CEOs to talk with one another
and we see similarities. Right.
And I think that there's ways that theengine can actually support one another.
So that's the firstpiece is really thinking through
how does research make a differencefor society.
(21:58):
Right.Because that's the big question. Right.
And and for meI think if it doesn't why do it.
Like if it's not going to solve a problemor improve our lives.
So I do it, thenI'm sure there's knowledge for knowledge
sake that matters, right?
Like I think maybe like superstring theoryor like all the theoretical physics,
it brings me great valuebecause I like to read about it,
but I don't know practicallywhat you do with it.
(22:18):
Physicists probably do, but I don't.
And so there's that piece.
The other piece is we're really thinkingabout economic development.
So we were able to enterinto a partnership.
We just signed an MoUwith a company called AG launch this week.
And AG launchis focused on a grower centric model
(22:41):
that allows growersto actually have equity stakes
in the startupstesting the technology on their farms.
And this sounds common sense.
You think. It's good incentiveto get people to drive.
But typically that's not the case.
I growers provide a lot of space in inand you know, maybe they might get
a little bit of a lease for,for their land
or they might get a break on thetechnology in the first year,
(23:03):
whatever that looks like.
It's not a long termeconomic strategy. Right.
And when you think about the waysthat all of us
want to provide for our families,we don't want to do it
like hit or miss every other year.
If I happen to have the right landthat this company needs.
And so what AG launch doesis, is they've created
a grower board, which is exactlywhat it sounds like, right?
Growers who make the decisionson the different types of startups.
(23:27):
So the startups pitch to growers,
growers decidewhat might be useful to them,
and then they decidewho's going to test it. Right.
I'm a centralizing for the sake of timehere.
But the nice thing aboutthat is then the equity stake
stays in the community.
So we're talking about drivingrural economic development.
And you can't do that if all of the profitcoming from this technology belongs
(23:51):
to a corporation, that then leavesthe community when it's done being tested.
Right.
So growers have the opportunityto have that
equity stake, meaning thatthat money stays in the community.
And we want to do this in 200mile square radius is because we know, you
know, that's approximatelythe square mile radius.
We need to also ensure food security.
And so we're working with AG lunchnow to stand up a native grower network.
(24:14):
So they'll be a boardthat it's just native growers
that are helping withwhat might be adopted.
There.
And adoptionbecomes the sticky point. Right.
So you can make a super shiny whiz bang.
But if growers don't need it,it doesn't matter.
So we're solving for two problems economicdevelopment, rural economic prosperity
coupled with adoptionbecause the growers are the ones
who are identifying what they might needand what might be useful.
(24:37):
Right.
And so it's, you know,agriculture is a relationship game.
It's all about understandingand it's all about trust.
And so we've we've really thought abouthow can we engage in a shared risk model,
ag launch grower equityand then working with local communities
for investment as well.
So another example is we're workingwith a nonprofit
(24:59):
who is also interestedin buying and roommate creation.
It's going to be happeningin a specific location.
We have some R&D money that we can useright, to invest into that.
And then this native nonprofit has said,this is something
that's really important to me, too,and this is my community.
We'd like to invest here as well.
And so then you have ag lunch coming infrom this side.
So when you're thinking about that publicprivate partnership
(25:21):
and philanthropy and governmentand private industry, right.
Those are the things that drivesustainability.
And I would say the last thing is
we'rereally interested in how we can create
opportunity for tribal communitiesacross the country.
We are the only engine that hasan integrated tribal component by design.
(25:43):
And we have really done our research.
And we know rural communities and tribalcommunities are very, very similar.
Right.
And so when I say tribal communities,they're also rural communities.
What isn't happeningis opportunities are not being provided
to tribal communities across the countryin the same ways that they are
within our region of servewith our engine.
(26:04):
And so we also this week
signed a formal MoU with the coalitionof Large Land Based Tribes,
which is a national organizationthat provides advocacy and support
and resources for tribesthat have over 100,000 acres of land.
So approximately 50tribes over 20 reservations
(26:25):
currently are members of the Coalitionof Large Land based tribes.
And so through that partnership,we want to make sure that we provide
opportunities for other tribal communitiesto also be involved.
Right? Like food is food.
We all need to eatand we all want to feed our families.
And it also allows usthen to have those testbeds for startups
and different types of products
and different types of growing conditionsthat allow us to kind of pivot and move.
(26:49):
And as that last piece, right,it also provides
other engines an opportunity to understandwhat tribes care about.
Because we have batteries, right?
We have energy, we have water,we have natural resource management.
The tribes are all very concernedwith those things as well.
And it is one of the NSF's goalsto increase tribal engagement
in an authentic, meaningful way that'srespectful and has a reciprocity to it.
(27:12):
This is one way that we can helpNSF advance their goals.
We can connect into our partnershipsand make those introductions,
and we're sure that our colleagues will beexcellent partners with the tribes.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
It is great to hear about this firsthand.
Special thanks to Holly Mackey.
For the Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
You can watch video versions
of these conversations on our YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
(27:34):
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program,
share with a friendand consider leaving a review.
Discover all.
The U.S.
National ScienceFoundation is advancing research@nsf.gov.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.