April 21, 2025 • 18 mins
Fundamental science can have a profound impact when discoveries and research are developed into tangible solutions that benefit the public. Ximena Bernal and Pablo Zavattieri, professors at Purdue University, discuss how their research into mosquitoes may translate into bio-inspired sensors that could help save lives.
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
Whether it's exploring the universe,pushing the envelope
in artificial intelligence, or studyinghow to respond to natural disasters,
collaboration between researchersis essential to advancing U.S.
competitiveness.
Fundamental science can have long legswhen advancing discoveries
(00:24):
become translational, and researchhas developed into tangible solutions
that benefit the public.
We're joined today by XimenaBernal, professor in the Department
of Biological Sciences,and Pablo Zavattieri, Jerry M.
and LyndaEngelhardt professor in civil engineering.
Their cross-disciplinary collaborationat Purdue
University is looking to understandand take inspiration
(00:46):
from a nuisance insect that famouslyspreads viruses and parasites,
but has developed a featurethat may ultimately help save lives.
Thank you both for joining me today.Thank you so much for calling.
Thank you.
So generallyspeaking, people hate mosquitoes.
How might a mosquito helpsave people's lives in the future?
Well, first let me defend mosquitoes.
(01:07):
Do you knowhow many species of mosquitoes are there?
Give me a guess.
I'm imaginingthere's a lot more than I think.
Not knowing much about them.
Maybe thousands of species.
Yeah. You're in the ballpark.
It's about 3500.
And you know how many are vectorsof disease to humans?
Less than 10%.
So I know mosquitoes are indeedthe deadliest animal on Earth,
(01:32):
because they do transmit a lot of disease,and they kill a lot of humans.
But few of them do that.
A lot of mosquitoes does.
So that has on them are fantastic,
and they do a lot of other stuffthat are critical for ecosystem services.
And there are some that are pollinators,although we need to learn more about
that aspect of their life.
So not all of them are that bad.
(01:55):
However, some are that what we're learningis that
because there's suchhigh diversity of mosquitoes,
we can learn from them how they're here,how they're in different contexts.
And what we're finding isthat they may have about really unique
adaptationsthat can help us apply those solutions
using biomimicry, emulating naturethat has taken millions of years
(02:17):
to come up with great solutions to maybe
we developed very good sensitive sensorsto detect
vibrations, maybe earthquake,or even we've been thinking about what?
About how they deal with noise.
So one of the things I'm excited about ismosquitoes
have a really good hearing jet.
They fly with that noiseproduction system in their back.
(02:38):
We're all familiar with it.
So imagine trying
to hear when you have that in your bagbecause they're flying.
So like we think that
they may help us understand betterhow to deal with noise in the environment.
So there are many opportunities formosquitoes to help us improve our lives.
You know, mosquitoes are actually,really great structural component
in antennas that actually can help usunderstand how to better design sensors
(03:03):
on a structure for vibration and vibrationcontrol or vibration detection.
So I think there are a lot of closein nature
that we can actually use fromjust doing these studies.
What is interesting about their antennafrom an engineering perspective?
Well, the antenna is,very well defined, a structure
that can detect noise or by ratiosthat are actually have low amplitude.
(03:26):
And this is very importantfor engineering purposes
because there are a lot of engineeringapplications where we need to detect very,
very tiny signals on top of that.
Mosquitoes are really goodat detecting those signals
under a lot of noise, environmental noisealso, they're all noise
because they have the wing beat.
That actuallyis like being in a helicopter
and you're trying you are insidea helicopter trying to actually detect
(03:49):
sounds coming from far awayand very general low in amplitude.
So mosquitoes are really,really good at doing that.
And I think there are a lot of thingswe are just scratching the surface
because we are just doing some mechanicalanalysis and variation analysis.
But there is a lot of things
that we actually need to learnfrom how these dynamics are made.
Doctor Bernal, what is the role of soundfor mosquitoes in general?
(04:12):
Many mosquitoes use sound for love,so they easily are made in context.
They form swarms and male mosquitoescome into swarms
and they're still flying you.
Since this is specific patterns,it's adorable.
Like one specieswill look like a little aid.
And all of these.
And there are sometimesdozens of mosquitoes flying together.
The males. And they attract the females.
(04:32):
And when they're in the swarm,they communicate with the women.
So that's pretty neat deal. Mating.
And we have known that for a little bit.
But what is really interestingand where my system comes into place
is that there are mosquitoesthat use sound in a different context.
They use sound to hear from calls,these mosquitoes that by frogs,
they don't use the chemical cuesthat we are used to like mosquitoes.
(04:55):
That by you and me, you see itthrough gradients, temperature gradients,
even visual cues because we are humongous.
But these mosquitoes that by frogs areis dropping on their calls.
So here you have male frogscalling to attract females.
And these if super mosquitoescome and get a blood meal.
So like the mosquitoes that biteyou and me, only the females will bite.
(05:16):
So here we have mosquitoes here and frogsfrom very far away.
Because hearing has been stayfor mosquitoes in close proximity
in the swamps.
At first we didn't even know howthey were hearing the frogs.
And we started researching that.
And then we
for a little bit were derailed thinkingthat they needed that in panic here.
So here, like the ones we have,because they were here from very far away.
(05:40):
And up to that point,we thought the antennae needed
were only use for sound.That was close by.
We at first ignored antennae
and then we had to come back to antennasand well,
maybe these antennae are actuallyreally good for hearing from far away.
And we integrated biomechanicsknow physiology and behavior.
And two years agowith a paper that actually.
(06:01):
But I now want to showthat frog by mosquitoes.
Are you hearing the frogsuser the antennae.
So this is really the frogs are callingand tried to get made,
and then they get all of the mosquitoesthat by them.
Here's a sample of the sound of the wingbeats of a frog biting mosquito.
Corethrella appendiculata.
You'll first hear a male example.
(06:26):
Then a female.
Then an interaction
between both.
Here you both mentioned the noiseof their wings
and thinking about all of thatadded into a swarm group situation.
(06:51):
Do we know how they get around that noise?
Floor level.
So that was the first question we had.
And that's whyI contacted my collaborator,
because I'm like,can you help me figure this out?
And one of the issues is that it's hardto set up an experiment to test it.
So we've been trying to do thatwhen we hook them with electrodes
(07:11):
and look at how they're hearing,they need to be still.
So we were trying to say,
okay, can we place a little speakerwith the inner bar.
How do we do this?
And we were like us.
First good start is using models.
And all of these collaboration startedbased on these questions.
So I'm like, Paolo,can you help me figure this out?
I said yes,but let's first develop the model
(07:33):
and see how sensitive they are,how the geometry of the antennae,
the materials of the antennaaffects the responses to sound.
We can reproduce thatwith our simple models.
We our models of,you know how things by rate.
And we know that the same noiseactually can amplify
the sound, the targetthat they are actually trying to detect.
So it's great.
Do we understand that? I don't know.
(07:55):
I mean, I like yeah, we can design that.
We know that nature is doing it.
But Idon't know if we have design guidelines,
if we have a very good understandingof that process at this point.
Yes, we know that Chelsea's in mechanics.
I mean, structural mechanics,we can predict that trying to understand
how to better design the structures.I think
we need to do a little bit more work.
(08:15):
So we need to further develop this.
But this may be a door into understandinghow noise is not always.
God may be the system
that have had trouble with noiseand use it to their advantage.
So we're just trying to figure this out.
And the first step was with the finiteelement model, said Paolo.
Help us develop.
Does the antenna morphology changebetween species?
(08:37):
If different species are listening,different?
Do their antenna vary as well?
So that'swhy at first were confused with antennae,
because the mosquitoes that we knowa lot about are the ones that by humans.
And those are swarming mosquitoesthat are used in Saudi mating.
And in those males have highly plumes,antennae.
They're beautiful, like Christmas trees.
And the females have antennaethat have only a few years.
(09:00):
And that sexual dimorphismis associated with the ability to hear.
So males are the ones that are doingmost of the hearing.
And even
until a few like ten, 15 years ago,people thought the females wouldn't hear.
It took roughly female researchersto comment please,
you do places it well,let me look at this.
And we know females here,they're not as sensitive because the males
(09:21):
are the ones that are really tuningto fight for a female.
They but they're those sexual dimorphismmales.
And that's why when we lookat the mosquito that by the frogs,
we're like femalesare the ones that are here in circles
and the other antennaeare less luminous with few hairs.
So we didn't match.
But all of this was because we firststarted with a frog body image that uses
(09:45):
sound both in mating and for bite frogs,and that's why we move.
We found this system
that is a frog, very mosquito that we showthat does not do funny mating.
So we had to actually
set up cameras in the colonyand we tracked them for months 24
seven and well, okay, they're matingand they're not swarming perfect.
Now we can use itfor looking at how they hear frogs.
(10:08):
And to our surprise,then they are not very pumas.
And we're like, why is this?
And that was the other reasonwhy I'm like, hello, can you help me
figure it out?
So we know the sexes have different anythe species have different antennae.
How can we understand that variationand what it means
for the sound are hearingand how sensitive they are.
(10:29):
And that was the beauty of these modelsthat it allows us to play with.
What natural variation we see.
But even I just said becausewe could create an antennae that had
it was a rigid rod,
because that's how the antennaehad been modeled in the past, versus one
that has segments like they do
in nature, versus segments that are likethe ones that antennae with our hairs,
with hairs and play sounds through to themand see how they responded.
(10:52):
The different antenna sectionswill respond to different frequencies.
We're learning, for instance,that the segments help with the tuning.
So to what frequencies?Which is something that we could use.
We could create cancersthat have different segments and are tuned
to detect different frequencies.
And then if we have hairs,they increase the sensitivity.
They add that frequency.
(11:13):
The beauty of the modelsis that it allows us to tease apart
those different componentsof the antennae of the structure.
Anyway,
we were playing with the materials likedo you need to have the civic materials?
And there's so many mosquitoes out thereand some you sound in different contexts,
some don't sound.
So there's still a lot of variationthat we could explore.
Thinking about moving these learningsinto real world applications.
(11:35):
Doctors have a trait.
Does nature often inspire or influencenew engineering techniques?
Not always.
Not always.
That's a good question, because sometimes
we actually find solutionsthat we already know.
Right?
Like, you know, when you see high volumefraction of fibers in plants
where you have a clear difference, okay,that we already know,
it's interesting to actually learn from,you know, natural systems
(11:57):
that actually are trying to solve problemswith things that we already know.
But the most important part
is when you actually find somethingthat is unusual, counterintuitive,
and that you actually see, okay,I don't know how to explain this.
That's when a good project starts, right?
So you start looking intohow do we play this?
You start percolating with ideato speculation.
Converts are converted into hypotheses.
(12:19):
And the hypotheses arethen better designs, better
experiments and better modelsto actually explain them.
And then we learn. Right.
So basically we made sure we can alwayshypothesize, you know, on some ideas.
And then trying to prove them wrong.
What might people seeimplemented out in the world around them
from this research.
So I'm thinking about a couple of thingsthat are important.
(12:41):
Is those, you know, sensorswe can talk about sense of how they
how we can detect noise or vibrationsthat are difficult to detect,
probably earthquakesor things that actually have to
do with large scale infrastructure.
And those are very,very challenging problems. Right?
When you actually get a signal,it might be too late to do anything.
That's number one.
(13:01):
And number two is to actually make thingsthat can be everywhere, right?
So put little ears in those placeswhere you actually need to hear.
And one idea that we call these,you know, pest control,
which only when it's related to foodand you are worried about pests, right.
So whenever you actually find outthat there are,
you know, insects eating your food,it can't be too late.
But if you can actually cheer themup, they,
(13:23):
you know, populate those places, thenyou can probably do something about it.
So sensing earlydetection, inexpensive sensors
and passive systems that actually don'trequire a lot of electronics,
wireless connection, thingsthat actually can send
an alarm signal to a place where, okay,something is going on.
(13:43):
These a very, very,very low signal detection.
But it's telling youthat something is wrong there.
So those are the two high prioritiesI have in mosquito.
There are many other things that actuallycan be related to aerospace, automotive,
defense, where you can probably say, well,I'm working on these cars, two antennas.
Right.
But what if we actually combinedmany antennas in a scheme
(14:06):
and then you can put that scheme.
So where now you have many, manymosquitoes, not enough detecting stuff.
Right.
So we call those, you know,
metal surface or biased or surfacesthat actually can detect stuff.
And there is a lot of workto be done there
because then you have to kind of
individually collectthe signals from every antenna.
And then trying to say,the problem is right here, there's
(14:26):
gotta be a lot of artificial intelligenceinvolved there, right?
Mean a lot of data.
Yeah, I was going to say
I think you'll run into data issues therethinking about these applications.
I saw something about potentially kindof flipping the data around
and using itas a kind of acoustic cloaking.
So how would you be able to do that?
Well, it has to do with the energy, right?
So if you actually want to do somethingthat you
(14:46):
you need to be able to capture that energyand do something about it.
And the question that I have to do withmassive scaling size is scaling.
So we those things that are very,very tiny have to do with the relationship
between the size,the periodic arrangement,
the distance between dampeners,
the mass and also the wavelengththat you're trying to detect.
Or are you are trying to do something.
(15:07):
So there is still a lot of workto be done there.
But the things are possiblebecause we know that metamaterials or,
you know, metal or acoustic metamaterialsare doing something with sound.
Right? So we know that we can grade them,we can fabricate them.
But now this takes us to a next level,which is by inspire structures
that can be periodicand can interact with waves in that way.
(15:29):
I want to end today's conversationby asking each of you
about how NSF support
has impacted your work, andwhat are you excited about in the future?
The NSF career was basically onnatural materials, was my inspiration,
and that was really our before and after.
Right?
So before that,
I was just an assistant professorworking on new biological systems.
(15:49):
But after that, you know, not only thethe research that we were able
to actually achieve here in my lab,but also in collaboration
with other groups that actually are doinggreat work on by inspiration.
And, you know, that was excellent.
Also, you know, the possibility of goingto conferences and talk with other people.
You know, why inspiration was something
that was growing upduring the last ten years.
(16:10):
And now I see colleagues of mine right nowthat were students back then, right,
that now we we it's a big network of ofcollaborators working on my inspiration.
So so in that sense it wasn't green didn'timpact me only myself, but also
my students, the people who were impactedby those work on those grants.
Without NSF support,we wouldn't have been here.
(16:33):
So when I first came acrossthis frog riding mosquitoes
and we didn't know what they were doing,I collected some preliminary data.
And I like I think there's potential.
They seem to be interesting.
And I got my first grant therethat allow me to launch this program.
Thanks to Unicef support,we've been able to explore
both basic questions and somethat have more applied consequences.
(16:55):
Unexpectedbecause that's how science work.
We are here trying to understand
nature and we're like,oh, this is useful for an application.
This is actually the core of the NASAbrand that we created enough.
And that'swhy we're finishing collecting data.
And and we're excited to understand how
mosquitoes for biting mosquitoes,but no mosquitoes localize sound.
(17:18):
So it's not only about
hearing sound, but organisms need to knowwhere it's coming from.
And this is critical
to respond to threats, to be ableto respond appropriately to a mate.
But localizing sounds requireseasily being big.
You and me and all of us have big headsthat are useful for sound localization.
So while we use is the intensity of soundat the two years
(17:42):
and the time of our arrival,and this winter,
our differences allow us to pinpointwhat is is coming from.
So we've been looking at thisin biomechanics, running lasers,
these antennae,
doing behavior and their physiologyto understand how their human sound.
And we think we're figuring out
potentially a new waythat we haven't described before.
Okay.
(18:02):
How you can pinpoint the locationof the sensors when you're tiny.
And that could be really neat,because it could allow us to create
sensors that not only detect sound,but they can pinpoint
where it's coming from,which will make it a lot more effective.
So I'm really excited about that.
We're analyzing the dataand it looks very promising.
(18:23):
So I think it will be a fantasticway to wrap up this grant.
Special thanks to.
Ximena Bernal and Pablo Zavattieri.
For The Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
You can watch video versions
of these conversations on our YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program, share
with the friend and considerleaving a review.
(18:46):
Discover how the U.S.
National Science Foundationis advancing research at NSF.gov.
This is the Discovery Files podcastfrom the U.S.
National Science Foundation.
Whether it's exploring the universe,pushing the envelope
in artificial intelligence, or studyinghow to respond to natural disasters,
collaboration between researchersis essential to advancing U.S.
competitiveness.
Fundamental science can have long legswhen advancing discoveries
(00:24):
become translational, and researchhas developed into tangible solutions
that benefit the public.
We're joined today by XimenaBernal, professor in the Department
of Biological Sciences,and Pablo Zavattieri, Jerry M.
and LyndaEngelhardt professor in civil engineering.
Their cross-disciplinary collaborationat Purdue
University is looking to understandand take inspiration
(00:46):
from a nuisance insect that famouslyspreads viruses and parasites,
but has developed a featurethat may ultimately help save lives.
Thank you both for joining me today.Thank you so much for calling.
Thank you.
So generallyspeaking, people hate mosquitoes.
How might a mosquito helpsave people's lives in the future?
Well, first let me defend mosquitoes.
(01:07):
Do you knowhow many species of mosquitoes are there?
Give me a guess.
I'm imaginingthere's a lot more than I think.
Not knowing much about them.
Maybe thousands of species.
Yeah. You're in the ballpark.
It's about 3500.
And you know how many are vectorsof disease to humans?
Less than 10%.
So I know mosquitoes are indeedthe deadliest animal on Earth,
(01:32):
because they do transmit a lot of disease,and they kill a lot of humans.
But few of them do that.
A lot of mosquitoes does.
So that has on them are fantastic,
and they do a lot of other stuffthat are critical for ecosystem services.
And there are some that are pollinators,although we need to learn more about
that aspect of their life.
So not all of them are that bad.
(01:55):
However, some are that what we're learningis that
because there's suchhigh diversity of mosquitoes,
we can learn from them how they're here,how they're in different contexts.
And what we're finding isthat they may have about really unique
adaptationsthat can help us apply those solutions
using biomimicry, emulating naturethat has taken millions of years
(02:17):
to come up with great solutions to maybe
we developed very good sensitive sensorsto detect
vibrations, maybe earthquake,or even we've been thinking about what?
About how they deal with noise.
So one of the things I'm excited about ismosquitoes
have a really good hearing jet.
They fly with that noiseproduction system in their back.
(02:38):
We're all familiar with it.
So imagine trying
to hear when you have that in your bagbecause they're flying.
So like we think that
they may help us understand betterhow to deal with noise in the environment.
So there are many opportunities formosquitoes to help us improve our lives.
You know, mosquitoes are actually,really great structural component
in antennas that actually can help usunderstand how to better design sensors
(03:03):
on a structure for vibration and vibrationcontrol or vibration detection.
So I think there are a lot of closein nature
that we can actually use fromjust doing these studies.
What is interesting about their antennafrom an engineering perspective?
Well, the antenna is,very well defined, a structure
that can detect noise or by ratiosthat are actually have low amplitude.
(03:26):
And this is very importantfor engineering purposes
because there are a lot of engineeringapplications where we need to detect very,
very tiny signals on top of that.
Mosquitoes are really goodat detecting those signals
under a lot of noise, environmental noisealso, they're all noise
because they have the wing beat.
That actuallyis like being in a helicopter
and you're trying you are insidea helicopter trying to actually detect
(03:49):
sounds coming from far awayand very general low in amplitude.
So mosquitoes are really,really good at doing that.
And I think there are a lot of thingswe are just scratching the surface
because we are just doing some mechanicalanalysis and variation analysis.
But there is a lot of things
that we actually need to learnfrom how these dynamics are made.
Doctor Bernal, what is the role of soundfor mosquitoes in general?
(04:12):
Many mosquitoes use sound for love,so they easily are made in context.
They form swarms and male mosquitoescome into swarms
and they're still flying you.
Since this is specific patterns,it's adorable.
Like one specieswill look like a little aid.
And all of these.
And there are sometimesdozens of mosquitoes flying together.
The males. And they attract the females.
(04:32):
And when they're in the swarm,they communicate with the women.
So that's pretty neat deal. Mating.
And we have known that for a little bit.
But what is really interestingand where my system comes into place
is that there are mosquitoesthat use sound in a different context.
They use sound to hear from calls,these mosquitoes that by frogs,
they don't use the chemical cuesthat we are used to like mosquitoes.
(04:55):
That by you and me, you see itthrough gradients, temperature gradients,
even visual cues because we are humongous.
But these mosquitoes that by frogs areis dropping on their calls.
So here you have male frogscalling to attract females.
And these if super mosquitoescome and get a blood meal.
So like the mosquitoes that biteyou and me, only the females will bite.
(05:16):
So here we have mosquitoes here and frogsfrom very far away.
Because hearing has been stayfor mosquitoes in close proximity
in the swamps.
At first we didn't even know howthey were hearing the frogs.
And we started researching that.
And then we
for a little bit were derailed thinkingthat they needed that in panic here.
So here, like the ones we have,because they were here from very far away.
(05:40):
And up to that point,we thought the antennae needed
were only use for sound.That was close by.
We at first ignored antennae
and then we had to come back to antennasand well,
maybe these antennae are actuallyreally good for hearing from far away.
And we integrated biomechanicsknow physiology and behavior.
And two years agowith a paper that actually.
(06:01):
But I now want to showthat frog by mosquitoes.
Are you hearing the frogsuser the antennae.
So this is really the frogs are callingand tried to get made,
and then they get all of the mosquitoesthat by them.
Here's a sample of the sound of the wingbeats of a frog biting mosquito.
Corethrella appendiculata.
You'll first hear a male example.
(06:26):
Then a female.
Then an interaction
between both.
Here you both mentioned the noiseof their wings
and thinking about all of thatadded into a swarm group situation.
(06:51):
Do we know how they get around that noise?
Floor level.
So that was the first question we had.
And that's whyI contacted my collaborator,
because I'm like,can you help me figure this out?
And one of the issues is that it's hardto set up an experiment to test it.
So we've been trying to do thatwhen we hook them with electrodes
(07:11):
and look at how they're hearing,they need to be still.
So we were trying to say,
okay, can we place a little speakerwith the inner bar.
How do we do this?
And we were like us.
First good start is using models.
And all of these collaboration startedbased on these questions.
So I'm like, Paolo,can you help me figure this out?
I said yes,but let's first develop the model
(07:33):
and see how sensitive they are,how the geometry of the antennae,
the materials of the antennaaffects the responses to sound.
We can reproduce thatwith our simple models.
We our models of,you know how things by rate.
And we know that the same noiseactually can amplify
the sound, the targetthat they are actually trying to detect.
So it's great.
Do we understand that? I don't know.
(07:55):
I mean, I like yeah, we can design that.
We know that nature is doing it.
But Idon't know if we have design guidelines,
if we have a very good understandingof that process at this point.
Yes, we know that Chelsea's in mechanics.
I mean, structural mechanics,we can predict that trying to understand
how to better design the structures.I think
we need to do a little bit more work.
(08:15):
So we need to further develop this.
But this may be a door into understandinghow noise is not always.
God may be the system
that have had trouble with noiseand use it to their advantage.
So we're just trying to figure this out.
And the first step was with the finiteelement model, said Paolo.
Help us develop.
Does the antenna morphology changebetween species?
(08:37):
If different species are listening,different?
Do their antenna vary as well?
So that'swhy at first were confused with antennae,
because the mosquitoes that we knowa lot about are the ones that by humans.
And those are swarming mosquitoesthat are used in Saudi mating.
And in those males have highly plumes,antennae.
They're beautiful, like Christmas trees.
And the females have antennaethat have only a few years.
(09:00):
And that sexual dimorphismis associated with the ability to hear.
So males are the ones that are doingmost of the hearing.
And even
until a few like ten, 15 years ago,people thought the females wouldn't hear.
It took roughly female researchersto comment please,
you do places it well,let me look at this.
And we know females here,they're not as sensitive because the males
(09:21):
are the ones that are really tuningto fight for a female.
They but they're those sexual dimorphismmales.
And that's why when we lookat the mosquito that by the frogs,
we're like femalesare the ones that are here in circles
and the other antennaeare less luminous with few hairs.
So we didn't match.
But all of this was because we firststarted with a frog body image that uses
(09:45):
sound both in mating and for bite frogs,and that's why we move.
We found this system
that is a frog, very mosquito that we showthat does not do funny mating.
So we had to actually
set up cameras in the colonyand we tracked them for months 24
seven and well, okay, they're matingand they're not swarming perfect.
Now we can use itfor looking at how they hear frogs.
(10:08):
And to our surprise,then they are not very pumas.
And we're like, why is this?
And that was the other reasonwhy I'm like, hello, can you help me
figure it out?
So we know the sexes have different anythe species have different antennae.
How can we understand that variationand what it means
for the sound are hearingand how sensitive they are.
(10:29):
And that was the beauty of these modelsthat it allows us to play with.
What natural variation we see.
But even I just said becausewe could create an antennae that had
it was a rigid rod,
because that's how the antennaehad been modeled in the past, versus one
that has segments like they do
in nature, versus segments that are likethe ones that antennae with our hairs,
with hairs and play sounds through to themand see how they responded.
(10:52):
The different antenna sectionswill respond to different frequencies.
We're learning, for instance,that the segments help with the tuning.
So to what frequencies?Which is something that we could use.
We could create cancersthat have different segments and are tuned
to detect different frequencies.
And then if we have hairs,they increase the sensitivity.
They add that frequency.
(11:13):
The beauty of the modelsis that it allows us to tease apart
those different componentsof the antennae of the structure.
Anyway,
we were playing with the materials likedo you need to have the civic materials?
And there's so many mosquitoes out thereand some you sound in different contexts,
some don't sound.
So there's still a lot of variationthat we could explore.
Thinking about moving these learningsinto real world applications.
(11:35):
Doctors have a trait.
Does nature often inspire or influencenew engineering techniques?
Not always.
Not always.
That's a good question, because sometimes
we actually find solutionsthat we already know.
Right?
Like, you know, when you see high volumefraction of fibers in plants
where you have a clear difference, okay,that we already know,
it's interesting to actually learn from,you know, natural systems
(11:57):
that actually are trying to solve problemswith things that we already know.
But the most important part
is when you actually find somethingthat is unusual, counterintuitive,
and that you actually see, okay,I don't know how to explain this.
That's when a good project starts, right?
So you start looking intohow do we play this?
You start percolating with ideato speculation.
Converts are converted into hypotheses.
(12:19):
And the hypotheses arethen better designs, better
experiments and better modelsto actually explain them.
And then we learn. Right.
So basically we made sure we can alwayshypothesize, you know, on some ideas.
And then trying to prove them wrong.
What might people seeimplemented out in the world around them
from this research.
So I'm thinking about a couple of thingsthat are important.
(12:41):
Is those, you know, sensorswe can talk about sense of how they
how we can detect noise or vibrationsthat are difficult to detect,
probably earthquakesor things that actually have to
do with large scale infrastructure.
And those are very,very challenging problems. Right?
When you actually get a signal,it might be too late to do anything.
That's number one.
(13:01):
And number two is to actually make thingsthat can be everywhere, right?
So put little ears in those placeswhere you actually need to hear.
And one idea that we call these,you know, pest control,
which only when it's related to foodand you are worried about pests, right.
So whenever you actually find outthat there are,
you know, insects eating your food,it can't be too late.
But if you can actually cheer themup, they,
(13:23):
you know, populate those places, thenyou can probably do something about it.
So sensing earlydetection, inexpensive sensors
and passive systems that actually don'trequire a lot of electronics,
wireless connection, thingsthat actually can send
an alarm signal to a place where, okay,something is going on.
(13:43):
These a very, very,very low signal detection.
But it's telling youthat something is wrong there.
So those are the two high prioritiesI have in mosquito.
There are many other things that actuallycan be related to aerospace, automotive,
defense, where you can probably say, well,I'm working on these cars, two antennas.
Right.
But what if we actually combinedmany antennas in a scheme
(14:06):
and then you can put that scheme.
So where now you have many, manymosquitoes, not enough detecting stuff.
Right.
So we call those, you know,
metal surface or biased or surfacesthat actually can detect stuff.
And there is a lot of workto be done there
because then you have to kind of
individually collectthe signals from every antenna.
And then trying to say,the problem is right here, there's
(14:26):
gotta be a lot of artificial intelligenceinvolved there, right?
Mean a lot of data.
Yeah, I was going to say
I think you'll run into data issues therethinking about these applications.
I saw something about potentially kindof flipping the data around
and using itas a kind of acoustic cloaking.
So how would you be able to do that?
Well, it has to do with the energy, right?
So if you actually want to do somethingthat you
(14:46):
you need to be able to capture that energyand do something about it.
And the question that I have to do withmassive scaling size is scaling.
So we those things that are very,very tiny have to do with the relationship
between the size,the periodic arrangement,
the distance between dampeners,
the mass and also the wavelengththat you're trying to detect.
Or are you are trying to do something.
(15:07):
So there is still a lot of workto be done there.
But the things are possiblebecause we know that metamaterials or,
you know, metal or acoustic metamaterialsare doing something with sound.
Right? So we know that we can grade them,we can fabricate them.
But now this takes us to a next level,which is by inspire structures
that can be periodicand can interact with waves in that way.
(15:29):
I want to end today's conversationby asking each of you
about how NSF support
has impacted your work, andwhat are you excited about in the future?
The NSF career was basically onnatural materials, was my inspiration,
and that was really our before and after.
Right?
So before that,
I was just an assistant professorworking on new biological systems.
(15:49):
But after that, you know, not only thethe research that we were able
to actually achieve here in my lab,but also in collaboration
with other groups that actually are doinggreat work on by inspiration.
And, you know, that was excellent.
Also, you know, the possibility of goingto conferences and talk with other people.
You know, why inspiration was something
that was growing upduring the last ten years.
(16:10):
And now I see colleagues of mine right nowthat were students back then, right,
that now we we it's a big network of ofcollaborators working on my inspiration.
So so in that sense it wasn't green didn'timpact me only myself, but also
my students, the people who were impactedby those work on those grants.
Without NSF support,we wouldn't have been here.
(16:33):
So when I first came acrossthis frog riding mosquitoes
and we didn't know what they were doing,I collected some preliminary data.
And I like I think there's potential.
They seem to be interesting.
And I got my first grant therethat allow me to launch this program.
Thanks to Unicef support,we've been able to explore
both basic questions and somethat have more applied consequences.
(16:55):
Unexpectedbecause that's how science work.
We are here trying to understand
nature and we're like,oh, this is useful for an application.
This is actually the core of the NASAbrand that we created enough.
And that'swhy we're finishing collecting data.
And and we're excited to understand how
mosquitoes for biting mosquitoes,but no mosquitoes localize sound.
(17:18):
So it's not only about
hearing sound, but organisms need to knowwhere it's coming from.
And this is critical
to respond to threats, to be ableto respond appropriately to a mate.
But localizing sounds requireseasily being big.
You and me and all of us have big headsthat are useful for sound localization.
So while we use is the intensity of soundat the two years
(17:42):
and the time of our arrival,and this winter,
our differences allow us to pinpointwhat is is coming from.
So we've been looking at thisin biomechanics, running lasers,
these antennae,
doing behavior and their physiologyto understand how their human sound.
And we think we're figuring out
potentially a new waythat we haven't described before.
Okay.
(18:02):
How you can pinpoint the locationof the sensors when you're tiny.
And that could be really neat,because it could allow us to create
sensors that not only detect sound,but they can pinpoint
where it's coming from,which will make it a lot more effective.
So I'm really excited about that.
We're analyzing the dataand it looks very promising.
(18:23):
So I think it will be a fantasticway to wrap up this grant.
Special thanks to.
Ximena Bernal and Pablo Zavattieri.
For The Discovery Files, I'm Nate Pottker.
You can watch video versions
of these conversations on our YouTubechannel by searching @NSFscience.
Please subscribe wherever you get podcastsand if you like our program, share
with the friend and considerleaving a review.
(18:46):
Discover how the U.S.
National Science Foundationis advancing research at NSF.gov.
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