Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to another episode of Nuance Conversation
Podcast.
My name is George Hurt.
I am the creator and curator ofthis safe space to have nuanced
conversations here.
We don't operate in the blackand white.
We're comfortable with the gray.
That's nuance.
We aim to be open, honest,intelligent in this space, as
(00:53):
well as hit topics from religion, politics, social norms and pop
culture.
And we have a special, special,special guest with us on today
the renowned pastor, renownedCreator and curator.
Curator.
And we have a special, specialspecial guest with us on today
the renowned pastor.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Renowned Creator and curator.
Curator rather than curator,Let me swear you in.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is just a playful thing we do at the
beginning.
That you'll be open, honest andtransparent in this time
together in Nuance Conversations, it doesn't matter which hand,
the right hand is preferred.
But don't worry about it, hetells the truth all the time, so
he didn't really swear all theway in how are you feeling I'm
good man?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Thank you for having me.
This is incredible I appreciatethe name, yes, because often
the truth is in the nuance itabsolutely, absolutely is,
Especially in church context.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
We find ourselves looking for black and white,
right wrong, good evil, whenoften, oftentimes, it's
somewhere in the middle thatgroove in the middle, as most
things in life.
It's not yes or no, it'ssomewhere in the middle as well.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhere you're from and your
(02:03):
journey into your Christianfaith.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Man, how much time you got that it's a complicated
complicated question when areyou from?
That's a complicated question.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'll tell you why OK.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So I was born in Brooklyn, new York Listen Mercy
Hospital, however.
So I claim New York is myancestral homeland, right, okay,
but my father was a pastor inthe AME church.
Ame stands for AfricanMethodist, episcopal and AME
church.
Unlike the Baptist church orPentecostal church, they don't
(02:37):
vote on pastors.
We're not elected Not electedappointed by the bishop.
And once you are ordained, thebishop can send you to wherever
he or now she decides.
The logic is godly judgment.
As you can imagine, sometimesthe logic is neither godly.
(02:58):
Politics personalities, politicspersonalities Sometimes godly,
occasionally, but ideally theidea is they try to take the
gifts, talents and skillscalling of the pastor, match it
with the needs, the geography,the preferences of the church.
Theoretically it doesn't alwayswork out that way, but you go
in knowing that that's an optionand so it has enormous impact
(03:19):
on you as a pastor and yourfamily.
Hit my family particularly hard, on you as a pastor and your
family.
Hit my family particularly hard.
Well, not particularly hardbecause I guess if you talk to
most AMEs, we've all had whogrew up AME, we've all had a
similar journey.
So my father pastored 18churches over 52 years in 12
states.
Wow, so you were born inBrooklyn.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I was born in Brooklyn, it wasn't very long.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It was there four years that my dad was assigned
to a church in Boston.
He was there four years, thenFreeport, new York, then Queens,
new York, then Far Rockaway,new York, then Long Island, new
(04:03):
York, then Buffalo, new York.
But you were in the East.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Coast.
Yeah, principally you were inthe East Coast, so you got the
East Coast flavor, east Coastswag, even though you're
changing schools.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, went to high school.
I went to elementary school inLong Island, high school in
Queens.
I used to pump gas and run theMC car.
Oh wow, you know that wasbefore hip-hop, hip hop, gotcha.
And so actually 50 Cent, what'sthe?
So he's doing the power thing.
But then there's a pre-show.
(04:32):
I forget the name of it, butit's in the power trilogy.
I forget the name of the show,but it basically tells the story
.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I just read the Bible and pray, so I don't know what
you're talking about.
Come on man, no-transcript.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Let's have a nuanced conversation, but I forget which
show it is.
But it basically goes by hisupbringing in Queens.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Okay, His movie.
Are you talking about his movie?
No, no, no.
Richard D Crown.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
No, he has a series of shows on Starz.
He started with Ghost Power,but then there's one show in the
Power series.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I can't remember the name.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh yeah, it goes back to his life, but it goes back
to his life, but basically likethat neighborhood is not far
from where I grew up, got you umand so you know, born in
brooklyn was basically, but myformative years were really long
island, went to high school inqueens and then went to college
in atlanta, so basically themost part I I'm from New York.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's what I claim.
How are you connecting withchurch at this point?
Are you adopting to the churchworld?
Are you this child prodigy as apreacher, or are you this rebel
?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I'm fully immersed in it.
You're fully immersed in it.
It was weird.
My brother probably was therebel.
He saw Roots, I think, when hewas like in third grade and you
know it just.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
You know Roots in third grade.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
He started hating white people.
You know me in terms of nuance.
I was sitting there saying,well, how come he just didn't
say his name was Toby?
You know, I was trying tofigure it out, but I never had
the antagonistic relationship tochurch that my brother did.
I love church.
(06:11):
In fact, I'd be talking in theback when it was preaching time.
I was like shh, shh, trying tobe quiet.
Man, I loved it.
I wanted to be a rapper.
Actually, this was before rapwas like a career.
I just thought it was cool.
In fact, we used to do houseparties.
I was a part of triple threatMCs.
I was almighty J, love, oh,really guaranteed to rock you to
a level that none other couldever stop.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Thank God for intervention.
I'm trying to tell you.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That's what I thought it was going to be, and I got.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Actually, my mother, um, kept on bugging me because
she wanted me to be a part ofthis what they call Youth of the
Year Contest, which wasbasically an oratorial contest
or whatever.
So I really didn't want to doit, but just to shut her up I
(07:04):
did deliberately, did notprepare, got up and just spoke
and won, and out of that of thatI discerned my calling so at 17
17 17.
At 17 I preached my trial sermon, october 13th 1987 and then um,
from there at 17, basicallybecame a preacher in the amy
church.
Now, becausee Church, all ofthe churches are connected all
(07:26):
over the globe, so before I wentto college I had probably
preached across the country andthen by the time I finished
college, across the world andcolleges, morehouse, colleges,
morehouse became something of aprince of the church, just, and
all that means is someone whothey identified, who the fathers
(07:47):
and the bishops really took aninterest in, and I had.
Men of incredible gifts andtalent and insight and vision
just pour into me, give meenormous opportunity and that's
what led to my calling.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Let's talk more about the roots of the AME.
Richard Allen is my favoritehistorical preacher, not black
preacher, not favoritehistorical preacher period.
Hopefully I can get RichardNewman on his podcast.
He wrote the book FreedomProphet about Allen.
I understand the politicalaspect of it and the structural
(08:25):
differences that may bend theperspective, but how familiar
were you growing up of thehistorical significance of the
AME?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
church?
Oh, primarily, and I surelydon't want to give the
impression that because of howthe church was organized, you
didn't, you didn't, no, no, no,no.
No, I tell people all the time Iwas nurtured in the soul of
African Methodism.
I am committed to his preceptswas shaped by its values and
(08:57):
inspired by its ideals.
What are their values?
Well, I'm going to get to that.
My father was actually aBaptist.
He was one of y'all Right.
Well, I'm going to get to that.
My father was actually aBaptist.
He was one of y'all Right.
But his eighth grade mathteacher, a woman named Agnes
Hildesbrand in Arlesburg, southCarolina, said you're far too
intelligent.
No, no, no, ain't trying tothrow shade to be a jack leg.
So she say you should go toschool.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Far too intelligent to be a Baptist.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
No, she said a jack leg.
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I was trying to see where we were going with this
Jack leg in the South just meantuneducated, untrained preacher.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Gotcha, now you're happy to be a Baptist, but those
two things you know were notsynonymous in her mind.
But for her she was like youneed to be like my boys.
All of her boys were AME, andso my dad decided to convert at
17 to become an AME, principallybecause at the time, in
Orangeburg, south Carolina isvery unique.
(09:49):
In South Carolina, it actuallyhas two colleges Claflin College
and South Carolina State.
As a result, during the early60s, it was really a hotbed for
the civil rights movement inwhich my father was very, very
involved.
In fact, there was a famousmarch called the Orangeburg
Massacre, where a bunch of highschool students tried to
(10:10):
integrate a department storecalled Cress in Orangeburg,
south Carolina, and the policecame.
Many people think it was reallythe incipient element that led
to at least the Civil RightsMovement in South Carolina.
My father was deeply, deeplyinvolved.
Say that one more time.
The last part again.
What Say that last part again?
So the revolution, the sit-insat Crest Apartments so many
people believe in South Carolina.
It was one of the incipientmovements that led to the civil
(10:35):
rights movement among collegestudents in yeah, sit-ins and
things of that nature.
Yeah, in Orangeburg and myfather was deeply involved in
that and the leader of thatelement at the time was the
pastor of the Amy Church in town.
So my father was deeply, deeplyinvolved in the best of that
and inspired by those ideals.
In fact, the first time youheard Martin Luther King Jr
speak was at a rally at SouthCarolina State in the 60s when
(10:59):
he was 18 years old.
Wow.
So it was out of that, theircommitment to civil rights,
their commitment to education,their commitment to empowerment,
that led my dad to you knowwhen he finished college, to go
to seminary ITC in Atlanta andfor him, social protests um an
(11:19):
educated clergy, a commitment tothe social dimension of the
gospel was just intrinsic.
It's the air I breathe, it'sthe water I swim in.
It reminds me of the two fishwho were swimming in water and
they swim past an old fish andthe old fish says how's the
(11:40):
temperature of the water today?
And the young fish say it waswater Like they're in it so deep
they don't even know what it is.
So for me the AME church wasprofound and a lot of stuff I
took for granted as normative Ifound out was not what did you
take for granted?
Let's start with an educatedclergy.
I thought all preachers went toschool.
(12:01):
Because in the AME church youhave to.
You have to to be ordained andthere are two levels of
ordination.
So I got, I checked my call.
I preached my trial sermon whenI was 17.
I didn't get my secondordination, which which which
allows you to pass it?
I was 26.
You have to graduate from highschool, you have to go to
(12:23):
college, you have to go toseminary and then you also have
to go to what they call amandated ministerial institute
every Saturday for five yearsthat's taught by the other
pastors.
So I'm 17,.
You know, getting taught socialethics by Congressman Floyd
Flake.
Wow, you know what I mean.
So let's start there the ideathat the church is not a museum,
(12:49):
that it's not a place where theold, the sick, the depressed
and the oppressed and thedepressed come to lament their
fate.
It's a place where you come tolearn how to make a difference.
So my father's extended familyis from Orangeburg.
(13:11):
Orangeburg is in the middle ofSouth Carolina, about 100 miles
from Charleston.
Charleston, south Carolina, isprobably where 80 percent of the
slaves who were captured in theAfrican slave trade were
brought into America.
There's a preacher down therenamed Denmark Vesey.
Denmark Vesey, along with NatTurner, gabriel Prosser, one of
(13:36):
the three individuals whoactually were architects of the
only slave rebellions that weknow in America and Denmark
Vesey was an ordained deacon inthe African Methodist Episcopal
Church.
After his capture and death,the state of South Carolina
outlawed the AME Church untilthe Civil War.
(13:58):
South Carolina outlawed the AMEchurch until the Civil War.
So this that, that history,those ideals, that perspective,
that point of view is endemic towho I am you talked about the
civil rights.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
You talked about the education.
Then you also said empowerment.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
What do you mean by AME having one of their pillars
as being empowerment?
They just believed that churchdidn't end on Sunday after the
benediction.
They believe it was your job toimpact every aspect of
individuals lives.
In fact, one of my mentors toldme never, never, have to, never
.
Have to preach to eat, have topreach to eat.
Your job as a preacher is toprepare yourself to learn how
(14:45):
the society and the structuresof the society that you live in
work so you can be a changeagent within those structures
with the people that you serve.
And so that means the AMEChurch.
The oldest black college inAmerica is Wilberforce
University.
I went to Wilberforce for twoyears.
Yeah, it was founded by the AMEChurch, a bishop named Daniel
(15:09):
Alexander Payne.
So the AME Church has alwaysbeen at the forefront of
educational efforts, of economicefforts, anything designed to
enhance people's lives.
They see that as an outgrowthof our commitment to the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I see two ironies in that, quickly.
One you said believed youtalked in past tense.
Was that an assessment that AMEhas lost some of those things
currently?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I think, as is the case with most organizations,
ministries, if you're notcareful, it's very easy to allow
other issues, concerns,preoccupations, to kind of cloud
(16:09):
your primary focus, and I thinkin some instances in the Amory
Church that is the case.
I would not cast that aspersionon the entire denomination, but
I think that there are pockets,cast that aspersion on the
entire denomination, but I thinkthat there are pockets enough
of them where many of us whowere nurtured in its soil and
adopted its ideas and inspiredby its vision, became a little
(16:29):
frustrated and decided we couldpursue those same ideals in a
context that was more favorable.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, and I think also, as the world shifts to
anti-structure.
I think there's inherentlysometimes difficulties trying to
operate within especially largestructural, be it religion, be
it corporate.
Most of our big technicalcompanies are birthed out of
(17:00):
independence.
You know Bill Gates withMicrosoft, Mark Zuckerberg with
Facebook, now Instagram.
So I think a lot of times wekind of forget that just with
the shifting times.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
No, I think that's a very helpful perspective and I
would add to that the Amy Church, again, is 200, right 1787, you
know to today.
So 200 plus years old, 225, 230years old.
So the structure was birthed inslavery and I think,
(17:34):
unfortunately, that means thepeople who served in it, I think
, were ministering to people whowere in a much more limited
context.
So you take my dad, you know,of course he doesn't have the
options that I have, and so thebishop comes to him and says
(17:54):
well, you have to move.
Well, guess what he gonna move,cause what else he's gonna do?
Bishop come to me and say yougot to move.
I'm like I don't want to dothat, you know.
So I think the structure thathas allowed it to last so long,
I think it needs to be adjustedbecause it was birthed in an
environment where, you know,people of color didn't have the
(18:15):
same level of options that wehave now.
I think it's the same issue withthe black college, right?
You know, when I decided Iwanted to go to Morehouse, my
father was very upset.
You know what he said to me.
He said we only went to blackcolleges because we had to.
You have an opportunity to goto, you know, wherever you want
to go, why would you do that?
(18:36):
So I think a lot of times I wasjust reading this the other day
you know there are twofundamental forces in economics,
right, monopoly and competition.
I think for many, many years,the black church, the black
college, the black bank, theyhad a monopoly because we didn't
have no options.
But when you have options, ifall you're bringing to the table
(18:57):
is the fact that we black andyou don't represent anything
else, I think you're bringing tothe table is the fact that we
black and you don't representanything else, I think you're
going to have a challengeremaining irrelevant.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Well, I think there's two things with that as well.
That's the irony of empowerment.
So if I'm teaching you to beempowered, eventually that
empowerment is going to have tobe a power Absolutely.
It's parenthood almost you know, it's like you know Work
yourself out a job.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Where's my baby going ?
They're going to get married,they're going to get a house.
Now, you know that withdrawsyndrome and things that happens
with that.
I think also, when I thinkabout how you're describing at
its peak the historicalstructure of the AME Church,
really what you're driving atits peak is the black church in
general, absolutely, which theAME Church is the orchestrator
(19:45):
and creator and curator of notjust the black church but black
institutionalism.
Sure, because of Allen, andbecause of Allen actually lived
out everything you said.
Sure, Educated man, businessman, businessman, left all his
kids' property.
Allen actually lived outeverything you said.
Sure, educated man, businessman, businessman, left all his
kids' property, lost unjustly,bethel, the building, the
(20:10):
property, went back and boughtit on an auction and bought
extra rental property and it'sstill there today, and this is
the 1700s.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
It's the oldest piece of property continuously owned
by African-Americans in theWestern hemisphere.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Period, period.
And you know, newman, in hisbook on Freedom Prophet, talks
about how it was birthed andit's always a suggestion that
he's making that.
Who, newman?
The author?
Newman, about Allen, that Allenwas always up to something,
always so, to the point ofhaving the white preacher come
(20:49):
in and preach against slavery toa slave master opposed to
himself.
But even the walkout, hesuggests, was a setup.
But he makes the statementbecause it happens while they
were on the floor praying andthey walked out and started the
black institution, the firstblack institution in American
soul, all you, as you would say,on the soul of the Western
hemisphere.
Um, and it says literally, theblack church was birth off his
(21:12):
knees.
Um, so uh is um and had a skill.
He was a blacksmith a blacksmiththat worked and a chimney
cleaner and a shoemaker.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
He was an entrepreneur, an educator, a
preacher.
I mean it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Oh no, no, Alan is, and I say, historical figure.
I'm wrestling with the factthat he may be the most
important historical figure in.
I'm wrestling with the factthat he may be the most
important historical figure inthe history of America.
He's definitely on the shortlist.
I mean, frederick Douglass,who's on that short list, or
some people may put, firstchanged his birthday to be
(21:52):
Allen's birthday.
He was his mentee, and so it'sinteresting to see how the fruit
of Allen really spread out.
Even some of the complexitiesthat he had to deal with him and
Absalom Jones split at somepoint and seeing that even
birthed out in the AME.
(22:14):
However, with all that beingsaid, you're not currently AME.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
No, I alluded to that in a very nuanced way about 10
minutes ago.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I mean all these things, these pillars of
empowerment and education andcivil rights.
Well, I think what happened?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I think at the no great question.
I think at the heart of AfricanMethodism is this tension.
If you look at the AME Church'slogo, I think the logo embodies
the tension.
It's an anvil on top of thecross.
That didn't really strike meuntil I read CS Lewis's Mere
(23:02):
Christianity, and Lewis saysthat one of the issues that
Christianity has struggled withis is this pseudo shadow
Christian movement calledChristianity.
And you know Christianity andthe social movement Christianity
(23:23):
and, like he says, we're alwaystrying to add something to
Christianity, as if its essenceis insufficient.
And so when I read that book,immediately it brought to my
mind the Amy Chairs logo.
It's an anvil on top of thecross and I think in many
instances what's the anvil?
The anvil is the piece of steelthat a blacksmith uses to
(23:48):
hammer weapons.
It's a graphical homage to thefact that Alan, you know, was
this apostle ofself-determination.
He was entrepreneurial, hewanted to have his own.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And so for him, you know, independence right.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Entrepreneurism.
The anvil and the cross.
Well, I think often in many AMEenvironments they are more
enamored of the anvil than theyare the cross, and so often I
remember my first year inseminary we were invited to go
(24:30):
to South Africa to do a missiontrip.
It was shortly after.
Where is seminary Harvard?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Divinity School in Cambridge.
Okay, we need to go therebecause you went to.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Harvard, yeah, harvard.
So shortly after I got there wewent on a mission trip.
It was like 20 of us and wepreached at all these churches.
And I remember having a realproblem when I was preparing,
and the problem I had was somuch of my preaching up to that
(25:01):
point had been exclusivelysocial, like we call it.
Ain't it awful preaching?
All the rich are getting richand the poor are getting poor
and black people ain't winninglike that.
And I realized, compared to theSouth African social dilemma,
the stuff that I was talkingabout, comparatively speaking,
(25:25):
was minor.
And I had a real strugglebecause I realized my
appreciation of the depth of thegospel was woefully inadequate
because up to that point it wasprincipally social.
But I said to myself, what do Isay to people who have been
(25:45):
suffering from apartheid?
Apartheid ain't Jim Crow, youknow like what do I say.
And then I realized, as one ofmy mentors said, if you can't
preach it, you know, in Lagosand Los Angeles, it's not the
gospel.
So, even though my appreciationof the gospel has been through
(26:05):
the anvil, how much of my faithis in the anvil and how much of
it is in the cross?
What is the difference between,as we focus on empowerment,
which is important what is thedifference between the AME
Church and the Urban League?
What's the difference betweenthe AME Church and the NAACP?
(26:29):
Are we just a communitydevelopment corporation that
meets on Sunday, or is theresomething deeper to our
commitment that includes thesocial but fundamentally is
about the spiritual?
That became a real dilemma forme and I think that what
(26:50):
happened to your point once weare empowered?
To your point, once we areempowered, once we have received
or achieved a certain measureof social progress.
(27:10):
What then, does the gospel looklike?
For me?
As though many of our answersto that question were dated and
that there were otherexpressions of that commitment
that were more relevant, and Idecided that I wanted to cast my
lot with them.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Do you think that sometimes, maybe subconsciously,
those, not just AME, but thosewho hold the banner of social
justice Hide behind the banner,hide behind it or hold it up, or
are subconsciously looking foreels to maintain their relevancy
(27:48):
?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Absolutely.
A famous intellectual, who Iwill not name, who, before we
had a black president, wasconstantly talking about how
America needed to grow up, howwe needed to embrace our
diversity.
They had conferences about itall over the country, all over
(28:13):
the world, saying how importantAmerica needed to mature.
So we finally get a candidateand this intellectual decides
that he doesn't want to supporthim.
Oh, you're talking about CornelWest.
Oh, is that who I'm talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You know.
But I think it's important tosay names because a lot of times
I know Professor West.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I don't know if people have the preference.
He taught me at Harvard.
I took several classes of his.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You went to Harvard, I believe.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I was befuddled because I'm not understanding,
you know, and now he's runningfor president, which is a whole
other layer of complexity, awhole other level of nuance.
It was just amazing to me, like, okay, so you can complain.
So, to your point, I think weconfuse.
It's easier to throw rocks thanto build houses.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, and I think the searching for it blinds you to
the actual legitimatecomplexities.
I mean, have you heard we're inthe midst of I don't know when
we're going to air this anelection?
And I haven't.
Maybe you have, maybe ourviewers have heard anybody talk
(29:31):
about education?
We talk economics, but we knowthat economics are highly tied,
especially in the context ofAmerica, to education.
We hear about mass shootings,which are disguised as
non-black-on-black crime, butyou don't hear anything talking
about mass shootings as itrelates to impoverished black
(29:54):
and brown communities.
So it's not as if you and I aresuggesting that there are not
social plagues out there thatneed to be addressed.
It's just that sometimes theyalmost are only those that can
be marketed Like.
Morality is only abortion.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
There's so many other things.
If you were about pro-life,about saving children,
maintaining the strong familyvalues that you would hit
besides abortion and gays.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Racism is a very easy target when you have a water
fountain and you sitting in theback of the bus, right, that's,
that's one type of racism, right, that's one type of racism,
right.
But how do you deal with thetype of racism that manifests
itself as microaggression whenthe security follows you around
when you walk through thedepartment store, or four
seasons, you know, like, like,like, like.
(30:57):
That's a different, it's a,it's a more nuanced
manifestation of the same issuethat I'm not sure marching can
always address.
You know, speaking of thisconversation, right, one of the
candidates for governor in NorthCarolina, you know, is an
avowed Christian,african-american espousing all
of these moral positions,castigating those who don't
agree with them, and this guygot a rap sheet longer than one
(31:24):
of the candidates for president,and he's black, right.
So the question becomes how doyou hold him accountable, right?
When we come from anenvironment where you didn't
have to be right to be an ebonyand jet, you just had to be
blood.
Oh, and both of them are out ofbusiness too, right?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to another episode of Nuance Conversation
Podcast.
My name is George Hurt.
I am the creator and curator ofthis safe space to have nuanced
conversations here.
We don't operate in the blackand white.
We're comfortable with the gray.
That's nuance.
We aim to be open, honest,intelligent in this space, as
(00:53):
well as hit topics from religion, politics, social norms and pop
culture.
And we have a special, special,special guest with us on today
the renowned pastor, renownedCreator and curator.
Curator.
And we have a special, specialspecial guest with us on today
the renowned pastor.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Renowned Creator and curator.
Curator rather than curator,Let me swear you in.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is just a playful thing we do at the
beginning.
That you'll be open, honest andtransparent in this time
together in Nuance Conversations, it doesn't matter which hand,
the right hand is preferred.
But don't worry about it, hetells the truth all the time, so
he didn't really swear all theway in how are you feeling I'm
good man?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Thank you for having me.
This is incredible I appreciatethe name, yes, because often
the truth is in the nuance itabsolutely, absolutely is,
Especially in church context.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
We find ourselves looking for black and white,
right wrong, good evil, whenoften, oftentimes, it's
somewhere in the middle thatgroove in the middle, as most
things in life.
It's not yes or no, it'ssomewhere in the middle as well.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhere you're from and your
(02:03):
journey into your Christianfaith.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Man, how much time you got that it's a complicated
complicated question when areyou from?
That's a complicated question.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'll tell you why OK.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So I was born in Brooklyn, new York Listen Mercy
Hospital, however.
So I claim New York is myancestral homeland, right, okay,
but my father was a pastor inthe AME church.
Ame stands for AfricanMethodist, episcopal and AME
church.
Unlike the Baptist church orPentecostal church, they don't
(02:37):
vote on pastors.
We're not elected Not electedappointed by the bishop.
And once you are ordained, thebishop can send you to wherever
he or now she decides.
The logic is godly judgment.
As you can imagine, sometimesthe logic is neither godly.
(02:58):
Politics personalities, politicspersonalities Sometimes godly,
occasionally, but ideally theidea is they try to take the
gifts, talents and skillscalling of the pastor, match it
with the needs, the geography,the preferences of the church.
Theoretically it doesn't alwayswork out that way, but you go
in knowing that that's an optionand so it has enormous impact
(03:19):
on you as a pastor and yourfamily.
Hit my family particularly hard, on you as a pastor and your
family.
Hit my family particularly hard.
Well, not particularly hardbecause I guess if you talk to
most AMEs, we've all had whogrew up AME, we've all had a
similar journey.
So my father pastored 18churches over 52 years in 12
states.
Wow, so you were born inBrooklyn.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I was born in Brooklyn, it wasn't very long.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
It was there four years that my dad was assigned
to a church in Boston.
He was there four years, thenFreeport, new York, then Queens,
new York, then Far Rockaway,new York, then Long Island, new
(04:03):
York, then Buffalo, new York.
But you were in the East.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Coast.
Yeah, principally you were inthe East Coast, so you got the
East Coast flavor, east Coastswag, even though you're
changing schools.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, went to high school.
I went to elementary school inLong Island, high school in
Queens.
I used to pump gas and run theMC car.
Oh wow, you know that wasbefore hip-hop, hip hop, gotcha.
And so actually 50 Cent, what'sthe?
So he's doing the power thing.
But then there's a pre-show.
(04:32):
I forget the name of it, butit's in the power trilogy.
I forget the name of the show,but it basically tells the story
.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I just read the Bible and pray, so I don't know what
you're talking about.
Come on man, no-transcript.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Let's have a nuanced conversation, but I forget which
show it is.
But it basically goes by hisupbringing in Queens.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Okay, His movie.
Are you talking about his movie?
No, no, no.
Richard D Crown.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
No, he has a series of shows on Starz.
He started with Ghost Power,but then there's one show in the
Power series.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I can't remember the name.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh yeah, it goes back to his life, but it goes back
to his life, but basically likethat neighborhood is not far
from where I grew up, got you umand so you know, born in
brooklyn was basically, but myformative years were really long
island, went to high school inqueens and then went to college
in atlanta, so basically themost part I I'm from New York.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's what I claim.
How are you connecting withchurch at this point?
Are you adopting to the churchworld?
Are you this child prodigy as apreacher, or are you this rebel
?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I'm fully immersed in it.
You're fully immersed in it.
It was weird.
My brother probably was therebel.
He saw Roots, I think, when hewas like in third grade and you
know it just.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
You know Roots in third grade.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
He started hating white people.
You know me in terms of nuance.
I was sitting there saying,well, how come he just didn't
say his name was Toby?
You know, I was trying tofigure it out, but I never had
the antagonistic relationship tochurch that my brother did.
I love church.
(06:11):
In fact, I'd be talking in theback when it was preaching time.
I was like shh, shh, trying tobe quiet.
Man, I loved it.
I wanted to be a rapper.
Actually, this was before rapwas like a career.
I just thought it was cool.
In fact, we used to do houseparties.
I was a part of triple threatMCs.
I was almighty J, love, oh,really guaranteed to rock you to
a level that none other couldever stop.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Thank God for intervention.
I'm trying to tell you.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That's what I thought it was going to be, and I got.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Actually, my mother, um, kept on bugging me because
she wanted me to be a part ofthis what they call Youth of the
Year Contest, which wasbasically an oratorial contest
or whatever.
So I really didn't want to doit, but just to shut her up I
(07:04):
did deliberately, did notprepare, got up and just spoke
and won, and out of that of thatI discerned my calling so at 17
17 17.
At 17 I preached my trial sermon, october 13th 1987 and then um,
from there at 17, basicallybecame a preacher in the amy
church.
Now, becausee Church, all ofthe churches are connected all
(07:26):
over the globe, so before I wentto college I had probably
preached across the country andthen by the time I finished
college, across the world andcolleges, morehouse, colleges,
morehouse became something of aprince of the church, just, and
all that means is someone whothey identified, who the fathers
(07:47):
and the bishops really took aninterest in, and I had.
Men of incredible gifts andtalent and insight and vision
just pour into me, give meenormous opportunity and that's
what led to my calling.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Let's talk more about the roots of the AME.
Richard Allen is my favoritehistorical preacher, not black
preacher, not favoritehistorical preacher period.
Hopefully I can get RichardNewman on his podcast.
He wrote the book FreedomProphet about Allen.
I understand the politicalaspect of it and the structural
(08:25):
differences that may bend theperspective, but how familiar
were you growing up of thehistorical significance of the
AME?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
church?
Oh, primarily, and I surelydon't want to give the
impression that because of howthe church was organized, you
didn't, you didn't, no, no, no,no.
No, I tell people all the time Iwas nurtured in the soul of
African Methodism.
I am committed to his preceptswas shaped by its values and
(08:57):
inspired by its ideals.
What are their values?
Well, I'm going to get to that.
My father was actually aBaptist.
He was one of y'all Right.
Well, I'm going to get to that.
My father was actually aBaptist.
He was one of y'all Right.
But his eighth grade mathteacher, a woman named Agnes
Hildesbrand in Arlesburg, southCarolina, said you're far too
intelligent.
No, no, no, ain't trying tothrow shade to be a jack leg.
So she say you should go toschool.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Far too intelligent to be a Baptist.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
No, she said a jack leg.
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I was trying to see where we were going with this
Jack leg in the South just meantuneducated, untrained preacher.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Gotcha, now you're happy to be a Baptist, but those
two things you know were notsynonymous in her mind.
But for her she was like youneed to be like my boys.
All of her boys were AME, andso my dad decided to convert at
17 to become an AME, principallybecause at the time, in
Orangeburg, south Carolina isvery unique.
(09:49):
In South Carolina, it actuallyhas two colleges Claflin College
and South Carolina State.
As a result, during the early60s, it was really a hotbed for
the civil rights movement inwhich my father was very, very
involved.
In fact, there was a famousmarch called the Orangeburg
Massacre, where a bunch of highschool students tried to
(10:10):
integrate a department storecalled Cress in Orangeburg,
south Carolina, and the policecame.
Many people think it was reallythe incipient element that led
to at least the Civil RightsMovement in South Carolina.
My father was deeply, deeplyinvolved.
Say that one more time.
The last part again.
What Say that last part again?
So the revolution, the sit-insat Crest Apartments so many
people believe in South Carolina.
It was one of the incipientmovements that led to the civil
(10:35):
rights movement among collegestudents in yeah, sit-ins and
things of that nature.
Yeah, in Orangeburg and myfather was deeply involved in
that and the leader of thatelement at the time was the
pastor of the Amy Church in town.
So my father was deeply, deeplyinvolved in the best of that
and inspired by those ideals.
In fact, the first time youheard Martin Luther King Jr
speak was at a rally at SouthCarolina State in the 60s when
(10:59):
he was 18 years old.
Wow.
So it was out of that, theircommitment to civil rights,
their commitment to education,their commitment to empowerment,
that led my dad to you knowwhen he finished college, to go
to seminary ITC in Atlanta andfor him, social protests um an
(11:19):
educated clergy, a commitment tothe social dimension of the
gospel was just intrinsic.
It's the air I breathe, it'sthe water I swim in.
It reminds me of the two fishwho were swimming in water and
they swim past an old fish andthe old fish says how's the
(11:40):
temperature of the water today?
And the young fish say it waswater Like they're in it so deep
they don't even know what it is.
So for me the AME church wasprofound and a lot of stuff I
took for granted as normative Ifound out was not what did you
take for granted?
Let's start with an educatedclergy.
I thought all preachers went toschool.
(12:01):
Because in the AME church youhave to.
You have to to be ordained andthere are two levels of
ordination.
So I got, I checked my call.
I preached my trial sermon whenI was 17.
I didn't get my secondordination, which which which
allows you to pass it?
I was 26.
You have to graduate from highschool, you have to go to
(12:23):
college, you have to go toseminary and then you also have
to go to what they call amandated ministerial institute
every Saturday for five yearsthat's taught by the other
pastors.
So I'm 17,.
You know, getting taught socialethics by Congressman Floyd
Flake.
Wow, you know what I mean.
So let's start there the ideathat the church is not a museum,
(12:49):
that it's not a place where theold, the sick, the depressed
and the oppressed and thedepressed come to lament their
fate.
It's a place where you come tolearn how to make a difference.
So my father's extended familyis from Orangeburg.
(13:11):
Orangeburg is in the middle ofSouth Carolina, about 100 miles
from Charleston.
Charleston, south Carolina, isprobably where 80 percent of the
slaves who were captured in theAfrican slave trade were
brought into America.
There's a preacher down therenamed Denmark Vesey.
Denmark Vesey, along with NatTurner, gabriel Prosser, one of
(13:36):
the three individuals whoactually were architects of the
only slave rebellions that weknow in America and Denmark
Vesey was an ordained deacon inthe African Methodist Episcopal
Church.
After his capture and death,the state of South Carolina
outlawed the AME Church untilthe Civil War.
(13:58):
South Carolina outlawed the AMEchurch until the Civil War.
So this that, that history,those ideals, that perspective,
that point of view is endemic towho I am you talked about the
civil rights.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
You talked about the education.
Then you also said empowerment.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
What do you mean by AME having one of their pillars
as being empowerment?
They just believed that churchdidn't end on Sunday after the
benediction.
They believe it was your job toimpact every aspect of
individuals lives.
In fact, one of my mentors toldme never, never, have to, never
.
Have to preach to eat, have topreach to eat.
Your job as a preacher is toprepare yourself to learn how
(14:45):
the society and the structuresof the society that you live in
work so you can be a changeagent within those structures
with the people that you serve.
And so that means the AMEChurch.
The oldest black college inAmerica is Wilberforce
University.
I went to Wilberforce for twoyears.
Yeah, it was founded by the AMEChurch, a bishop named Daniel
(15:09):
Alexander Payne.
So the AME Church has alwaysbeen at the forefront of
educational efforts, of economicefforts, anything designed to
enhance people's lives.
They see that as an outgrowthof our commitment to the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I see two ironies in that, quickly.
One you said believed youtalked in past tense.
Was that an assessment that AMEhas lost some of those things
currently?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I think, as is the case with most organizations,
ministries, if you're notcareful, it's very easy to allow
other issues, concerns,preoccupations, to kind of cloud
(16:09):
your primary focus, and I thinkin some instances in the Amory
Church that is the case.
I would not cast that aspersionon the entire denomination, but
I think that there are pockets,cast that aspersion on the
entire denomination, but I thinkthat there are pockets enough
of them where many of us whowere nurtured in its soil and
adopted its ideas and inspiredby its vision, became a little
(16:29):
frustrated and decided we couldpursue those same ideals in a
context that was more favorable.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, and I think also, as the world shifts to
anti-structure.
I think there's inherentlysometimes difficulties trying to
operate within especially largestructural, be it religion, be
it corporate.
Most of our big technicalcompanies are birthed out of
(17:00):
independence.
You know Bill Gates withMicrosoft, Mark Zuckerberg with
Facebook, now Instagram.
So I think a lot of times wekind of forget that just with
the shifting times.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
No, I think that's a very helpful perspective and I
would add to that the Amy Church, again, is 200, right 1787, you
know to today.
So 200 plus years old, 225, 230years old.
So the structure was birthed inslavery and I think,
(17:34):
unfortunately, that means thepeople who served in it, I think
, were ministering to people whowere in a much more limited
context.
So you take my dad, you know,of course he doesn't have the
options that I have, and so thebishop comes to him and says
(17:54):
well, you have to move.
Well, guess what he gonna move,cause what else he's gonna do?
Bishop come to me and say yougot to move.
I'm like I don't want to dothat, you know.
So I think the structure thathas allowed it to last so long,
I think it needs to be adjustedbecause it was birthed in an
environment where, you know,people of color didn't have the
(18:15):
same level of options that wehave now.
I think it's the same issue withthe black college, right?
You know, when I decided Iwanted to go to Morehouse, my
father was very upset.
You know what he said to me.
He said we only went to blackcolleges because we had to.
You have an opportunity to goto, you know, wherever you want
to go, why would you do that?
(18:36):
So I think a lot of times I wasjust reading this the other day
you know there are twofundamental forces in economics,
right, monopoly and competition.
I think for many, many years,the black church, the black
college, the black bank, theyhad a monopoly because we didn't
have no options.
But when you have options, ifall you're bringing to the table
(18:57):
is the fact that we black andyou don't represent anything
else, I think you're bringing tothe table is the fact that we
black and you don't representanything else, I think you're
going to have a challengeremaining irrelevant.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Well, I think there's two things with that as well.
That's the irony of empowerment.
So if I'm teaching you to beempowered, eventually that
empowerment is going to have tobe a power Absolutely.
It's parenthood almost you know, it's like you know Work
yourself out a job.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Where's my baby going ?
They're going to get married,they're going to get a house.
Now, you know that withdrawsyndrome and things that happens
with that.
I think also, when I thinkabout how you're describing at
its peak the historicalstructure of the AME Church,
really what you're driving atits peak is the black church in
general, absolutely, which theAME Church is the orchestrator
(19:45):
and creator and curator of notjust the black church but black
institutionalism.
Sure, because of Allen, andbecause of Allen actually lived
out everything you said.
Sure, Educated man, businessman, businessman, left all his
kids' property.
Allen actually lived outeverything you said.
Sure, educated man, businessman, businessman, left all his
kids' property, lost unjustly,bethel, the building, the
(20:10):
property, went back and boughtit on an auction and bought
extra rental property and it'sstill there today, and this is
the 1700s.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
It's the oldest piece of property continuously owned
by African-Americans in theWestern hemisphere.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Period, period.
And you know, newman, in hisbook on Freedom Prophet, talks
about how it was birthed andit's always a suggestion that
he's making that.
Who, newman?
The author?
Newman, about Allen, that Allenwas always up to something,
always so, to the point ofhaving the white preacher come
(20:49):
in and preach against slavery toa slave master opposed to
himself.
But even the walkout, hesuggests, was a setup.
But he makes the statementbecause it happens while they
were on the floor praying andthey walked out and started the
black institution, the firstblack institution in American
soul, all you, as you would say,on the soul of the Western
hemisphere.
Um, and it says literally, theblack church was birth off his
(21:12):
knees.
Um, so uh is um and had a skill.
He was a blacksmith a blacksmiththat worked and a chimney
cleaner and a shoemaker.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
He was an entrepreneur, an educator, a
preacher.
I mean it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Oh no, no, Alan is, and I say, historical figure.
I'm wrestling with the factthat he may be the most
important historical figure in.
I'm wrestling with the factthat he may be the most
important historical figure inthe history of America.
He's definitely on the shortlist.
I mean, frederick Douglass,who's on that short list, or
some people may put, firstchanged his birthday to be
(21:52):
Allen's birthday.
He was his mentee, and so it'sinteresting to see how the fruit
of Allen really spread out.
Even some of the complexitiesthat he had to deal with him and
Absalom Jones split at somepoint and seeing that even
birthed out in the AME.
(22:14):
However, with all that beingsaid, you're not currently AME.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
No, I alluded to that in a very nuanced way about 10
minutes ago.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I mean all these things, these pillars of
empowerment and education andcivil rights.
Well, I think what happened?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I think at the no great question.
I think at the heart of AfricanMethodism is this tension.
If you look at the AME Church'slogo, I think the logo embodies
the tension.
It's an anvil on top of thecross.
That didn't really strike meuntil I read CS Lewis's Mere
(23:02):
Christianity, and Lewis saysthat one of the issues that
Christianity has struggled withis is this pseudo shadow
Christian movement calledChristianity.
And you know Christianity andthe social movement Christianity
(23:23):
and, like he says, we're alwaystrying to add something to
Christianity, as if its essenceis insufficient.
And so when I read that book,immediately it brought to my
mind the Amy Chairs logo.
It's an anvil on top of thecross and I think in many
instances what's the anvil?
The anvil is the piece of steelthat a blacksmith uses to
(23:48):
hammer weapons.
It's a graphical homage to thefact that Alan, you know, was
this apostle ofself-determination.
He was entrepreneurial, hewanted to have his own.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
And so for him, you know, independence right.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Entrepreneurism.
The anvil and the cross.
Well, I think often in many AMEenvironments they are more
enamored of the anvil than theyare the cross, and so often I
remember my first year inseminary we were invited to go
(24:30):
to South Africa to do a missiontrip.
It was shortly after.
Where is seminary Harvard?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Divinity School in Cambridge.
Okay, we need to go therebecause you went to.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Harvard, yeah, harvard.
So shortly after I got there wewent on a mission trip.
It was like 20 of us and wepreached at all these churches.
And I remember having a realproblem when I was preparing,
and the problem I had was somuch of my preaching up to that
(25:01):
point had been exclusivelysocial, like we call it.
Ain't it awful preaching?
All the rich are getting richand the poor are getting poor
and black people ain't winninglike that.
And I realized, compared to theSouth African social dilemma,
the stuff that I was talkingabout, comparatively speaking,
(25:25):
was minor.
And I had a real strugglebecause I realized my
appreciation of the depth of thegospel was woefully inadequate
because up to that point it wasprincipally social.
But I said to myself, what do Isay to people who have been
(25:45):
suffering from apartheid?
Apartheid ain't Jim Crow, youknow like what do I say.
And then I realized, as one ofmy mentors said, if you can't
preach it, you know, in Lagosand Los Angeles, it's not the
gospel.
So, even though my appreciationof the gospel has been through
(26:05):
the anvil, how much of my faithis in the anvil and how much of
it is in the cross?
What is the difference between,as we focus on empowerment,
which is important what is thedifference between the AME
Church and the Urban League?
What's the difference betweenthe AME Church and the NAACP?
(26:29):
Are we just a communitydevelopment corporation that
meets on Sunday, or is theresomething deeper to our
commitment that includes thesocial but fundamentally is
about the spiritual?
That became a real dilemma forme and I think that what
(26:50):
happened to your point once weare empowered?
To your point, once we areempowered, once we have received
or achieved a certain measureof social progress.
(27:10):
What then, does the gospel looklike?
For me?
As though many of our answersto that question were dated and
that there were otherexpressions of that commitment
that were more relevant, and Idecided that I wanted to cast my
lot with them.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Do you think that sometimes, maybe subconsciously,
those, not just AME, but thosewho hold the banner of social
justice Hide behind the banner,hide behind it or hold it up, or
are subconsciously looking foreels to maintain their relevancy
(27:48):
?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Absolutely.
A famous intellectual, who Iwill not name, who, before we
had a black president, wasconstantly talking about how
America needed to grow up, howwe needed to embrace our
diversity.
They had conferences about itall over the country, all over
(28:13):
the world, saying how importantAmerica needed to mature.
So we finally get a candidateand this intellectual decides
that he doesn't want to supporthim.
Oh, you're talking about CornelWest.
Oh, is that who I'm talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You know.
But I think it's important tosay names because a lot of times
I know Professor West.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I don't know if people have the preference.
He taught me at Harvard.
I took several classes of his.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You went to Harvard, I believe.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I was befuddled because I'm not understanding,
you know, and now he's runningfor president, which is a whole
other layer of complexity, awhole other level of nuance.
It was just amazing to me, like, okay, so you can complain.
So, to your point, I think weconfuse.
It's easier to throw rocks thanto build houses.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, and I think the searching for it blinds you to
the actual legitimatecomplexities.
I mean, have you heard we're inthe midst of I don't know when
we're going to air this anelection?
And I haven't.
Maybe you have, maybe ourviewers have heard anybody talk
(29:31):
about education?
We talk economics, but we knowthat economics are highly tied,
especially in the context ofAmerica, to education.
We hear about mass shootings,which are disguised as
non-black-on-black crime, butyou don't hear anything talking
about mass shootings as itrelates to impoverished black
(29:54):
and brown communities.
So it's not as if you and I aresuggesting that there are not
social plagues out there thatneed to be addressed.
It's just that sometimes theyalmost are only those that can
be marketed Like.
Morality is only abortion.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
There's so many other things.
If you were about pro-life,about saving children,
maintaining the strong familyvalues that you would hit
besides abortion and gays.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Racism is a very easy target when you have a water
fountain and you sitting in theback of the bus, right, that's,
that's one type of racism, right, that's one type of racism,
right.
But how do you deal with thetype of racism that manifests
itself as microaggression whenthe security follows you around
when you walk through thedepartment store, or four
seasons, you know, like, like,like, like.
(30:57):
That's a different, it's a,it's a more nuanced
manifestation of the same issuethat I'm not sure marching can
always address.
You know, speaking of thisconversation, right, one of the
candidates for governor in NorthCarolina, you know, is an
avowed Christian,african-american espousing all
of these moral positions,castigating those who don't
agree with them, and this guygot a rap sheet longer than one
(31:24):
of the candidates for president,and he's black, right.
So the question becomes how doyou hold him accountable, right?
When we come from anenvironment where you didn't
have to be right to be an ebonyand jet, you just had to be
blood.
Oh, and both of them are out ofbusiness too, right?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
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