May 22, 2025 • 38 mins
What determines our path - our ambitions or something greater? This conversation uncovers the transformative journey of a gifted preacher whose education at prestigious institutions like Morehouse College and Harvard Divinity School formed just one part of his development.
The dialogue reveals how Morehouse's tradition of Black excellence instilled a philosophy that transcended racial barriers—"not about being the best Black, but being the best." Benjamin Mays' powerful words become a guiding light: "Not sin, not failure, but low aim is sin." We witness how these formative experiences shaped not just academic achievement, but a deeper understanding of purpose.
When academic success collides with character flaws, the story takes a pivotal turn. After forging a work-study supervisor's signature at Harvard, our guest faces withdrawal and humiliation—a painful but necessary step in his development. This failure becomes a crucial crucible for growth, demonstrating how divine providence often works through our disappointments.
Perhaps most compelling is the unexpected assignment to St. James AME Church in St. Louis—initially viewed as merely a stepping stone to greater opportunities in California. The "brash, young Harvard graduate" arrives as a "bull in a china shop," only to discover this supposed detour was exactly where he needed to be. Under his leadership, attendance grows from 60 to thousands, but the real transformation happens within as he learns humility and true pastoral care from the very congregation he initially underestimated.
Ready to explore how your perceived detours might actually be your destined path? Join us for this powerful conversation about excellence, failure, and finding purpose in unexpected places. Subscribe now to continue the journey through more nuanced conversations that challenge conventional thinking.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Let's trace this migration alittle bit.
If you don't mind, you're atMorehouse, obviously excelling
at Morehouse, but in a differentway.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What do you mean by that?
Morehouse introduced me to whatthey call the black preaching
prophetic tradition.
You know, martin Luther Kingwent to Morehouse.
So you know, if you're areligion of philosophy major,
they have a subtle ambition toturn you into Martin Luther King
.
But Morehouse really broadenedmy world in a way that it had
(01:06):
not been, and it introduced menot only to black Christian
excellence but black excellenceacross the board.
Benjamin Mays, who was not aMorehouse man but was a PhD from
University of Chicago in 1940,created that institution and for
him, he wanted to.
(01:27):
This man was so incredible,right, that someone once called
him boy on his way to class inChicago and he decided never to
wear a hat again because the manwho called him boy told him to
take his hat off.
So this guy's so crazy, right?
He from 96, south Carolina.
This guy's so crazy, right.
He from 96 south canada.
He's so crazy.
He's in chicago and you knowwhat the weather is like there
(01:51):
absolutely without a hat on, inprotest to how he could be
treated if someone made him takeit off.
That's the guy who built morehouse, wow, um.
They made us memorize one ofhis framed quotes which for me
is something of a personalconstitution.
Tragedy in life is notachieving your goals.
(02:15):
The tragedy of life is havingno goals to achieve.
It is not a calamity to diewithout having fulfilled your
dreams, but it is a calamity notto dream.
It's not a disaster not toreach the stars.
It is a disaster to have nostars to reach for.
Not sin, not failure, but lowaim is sin.
(02:37):
I mean, that was stitched intoour minds and, as a result,
morehouse, relative to its size,if you look at its alumni, has
just produced some amazing menwho carried those ideals, which
transcends race.
It wasn't about being the bestblack, it was about being the
best.
Whatever you do, do it so thatno man living born or yet to be
(03:00):
born could do it any better, yetto be born could do it any
better.
So that commitment toexcellence, that commitment to
being the best, that desire tonot only make a contribution but
to be an example, blew my mind.
I tell people all the time itwasn't so much what I read in
(03:20):
books, but just in that soil.
Then you add to that atMorehouse, man, it's a factory
dock for creating preachers.
I mean because we havemandatory chapel every Tuesday
and Thursday.
And man, at Morehouse, that'sthe first time I heard Caesar
Clark, that's the first time Iheard Charles Adams, first time
(03:45):
I heard Otis Moss.
Like it was for a preacher, itwas heaven.
So it broadened my concept ofexcellence and you're down there
with the best and the brightestfrom wherever they come from.
So you know, everybody atMorehouse was the class
president.
You know everybody at Morehousewas the preacher.
(04:06):
Everybody at Morehouse, youknow, had a 1500 on an SAT and
had a GPA.
So you're in an environmentthat is not only stretching you
emotionally but it's stretchingyou psychologically, because if
you can't handle other giftedpeople, you're just not going to
survive.
So it forces you not only toappreciate excellence but to
(04:30):
appreciate excellence in othersand some of my most enduring
friends I mean Raphael Warnock,who's now a senator, who's now a
senator.
I remember sitting, you know,in chapel with him talking about
(04:51):
the foes on the back of GardnerTaylor's neck.
Yeah, I mean, I mean.
So I mean it was just.
It was a center of blackexcellence and, without question
, one of the best decisions ofmy life.
And my dad didn't want me to go.
Why did you want to go?
To be honest, I went down therefor something called a
(05:13):
prospective student seminar.
It was like a week long.
Well, no, it's actually.
It's a guy named Gregory Grover.
He passed the Strauss-Rieh-AmyChurch in Boston, massachusetts.
He had gone to Morehouse.
He got he preached theStrauss-Rieh Charles F Amy
Church and I in Boston,massachusetts he had gone to
Morehouse.
He preached his trial sermon atmy dad's church and he kept
telling me you need to go toMorehouse, you need to go to
Morehouse.
So he said he heard they werehaving like a week-long interest
session for like kids who wereinterested.
(05:35):
I was like man, I'll go.
And man, it was duringhomecoming and the step show was
at Spelman and I saw them womendown there.
I was like there's a guy namedJohn Gates.
I never forget he was like thecoordinator.
I had never met someone my agewho was so eloquent and whose
(05:57):
woman was so fine.
I said, man, I want to be likehim, I'm going down here.
So my desire to go more housewas was neither academic, nor
spiritual, nor ethical.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So you did no more research after that.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
It was just so everything that you experienced,
all these pros all thesebenefits, I had been admitted to
Yale and I had been admitted toSt John's University and had
received full scholarships toboth.
I came back from that trip andtold my daddy I'm going to
Morehouse.
He almost had a heart attackbecause of course they gave me
not a cent.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Oh wow, I would have made you go to Yale.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, he was very upset for a long time because he
thought well, I don't think heunderstood what Morehouse was.
But you didn't either I didn't,either Judgmental.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You didn't understand what Morehouse was.
You didn't either.
You just went to a step show.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
John Gates had a fine woman, but judgmental in the
sense, like I think, for him heassumed it's intrinsic
inferiority.
It's a black school, sotherefore it could not be as
good as a Yale.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I mean, this is obviously divine providence.
We understand that, but at thesame time, you didn't think that
it was Well I didn't, but Ididn't assume that it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
You see what I mean.
Like I'm not, but I didn'tassume that it wasn't.
You see what I mean.
Like I'm not saying my motiveswere charitable, or?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
honorable no, no, no, I'm not judging your motives.
I mean, you're 17, 18 years old.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I'm just saying though, I didn't assume that it
was inferior.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
There's a lot of schools you could have went to
and visited that would have hadlike fine women in step shows.
I'm going to tell you what theydidn't have at Yale.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
No, no not Yale, not Yale, but if you were the
Southern St John either, yes,Southern maybe, maybe Tuskegee
Maybe, but I'm not sure theywould have had John Gates,
though that's what I'm saying.
The caliber of guy down thereis different.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, I mean you could have met somebody just
with the same swag or the sameintellect.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I could have I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I'm trying to nuisantly free your dad.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well, here's the difference.
Right, I totally understand.
Here's the difference.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
What your father is saying no, no no, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, here's a good way to talk about it.
Fast forward 20 years, right?
So my youngest son, he's atHoward right now.
My oldest son, he graduatedfrom Harvard.
We went to see one of mycousins she's president of a
bank in Columbia, South Carolina, and she asked my oldest son,
(08:43):
Malachi, this was last summer.
She said to him well, how comeyou didn't go to black college,
Carolina?
And she asked my oldest son,Malachi, this was last summer.
She, she said to him well, howcome you didn't go to black
college?
He's like well, I grew up inAtlanta.
I was kind of over it.
I felt like going to Harvardwould be better for me.
Now he's not lying in terms ofthe opportunity that comes, but
(09:06):
if you just look at the statsand you look at the incredible
impact and contributions thatpeople who have gone to Moss
have made, we ain't far behind.
Far behind, you know.
And what I'm saying is, in myfather's worldview, a black
(09:27):
college was intrinsically no.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I got you.
And that to me was what I thinkI bristled up against.
I don't think I don't think hefelt it was intrinsically lower
than a white school.
I think he felt it wasintrinsically lower than Yale,
who was doing a full ride.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
He didn't have to pay either way, so it don't make no
difference.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
I don't think it's just like you went.
Oh, you went to, you know,phoenix University.
It was full ride at Yale.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Both might be true.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, it's true, I'm trying to get you to see Both
might be true.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, mine is true.
I'm trying to get you to seeBoth might be true, no, but it—.
Especially when we're talking1987.
87.
87.
Yeah, especially 87.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
He's like man why.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Just why.
But you know, you know what.
It reminds me of a conversation.
You know I think it wasgenerational.
Like you know, the white man'sice is cold.
I really think it'sgenerational Because when I went
to Harvard, I had anotherprofessor who I shall remain
nameless.
He asked me oh Joe, what do youwant to do when you finish?
You know, you're highlyintelligent, gifted, you know
(10:39):
faculty likes you.
I said I want to be a preacher.
You know what he said to me whywould you waste your life doing
that?
He said anybody can do that.
Well.
I said to him well, anybody cando it.
Well.
In fact, I think in a lot ofways my entire ministry is a
protest against that assumption.
It was more that.
To me it was anybody can chooseLike anybody can go to black
(11:01):
school.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
How did you there, let's get, how did you get your?
You're at, you're at Morehouse,you're selling your, your, it's
blowing your mind, theexperiences, those things of
that nature.
Obviously, academically, youstay on track, um graduation
time.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
It's the next box to BA and me.
You got to go to seminary.
You got to go to seminary.
So the question is whatseminary am I going to?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
go to what?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
seminaries did you look at?
I only looked at one, onlylooked at one.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's the one I went to.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Harvard, I only looked at one.
I only went to one for tworeasons I didn't want to go home
, which was New York, because Icould have gone to Union
Seminary.
But I felt if I went to Union Iwould go to class less than I
did when I went to Harvard andtheir curriculum like most
traditional.
Well, first of all, harvard isa divinity school.
(11:49):
It's not a seminary, which wasthe other source of my
attraction.
What's the difference?
Seminaries are typicallyChristian in their orientation,
their beliefs, their faculty,and they give a structured
curriculum that's designedprincipally for paid for
ministry.
A divinity school sees religionas a subject for academic
(12:12):
inquiry.
They don't privilege anytradition.
So they look at Christianitythe same way they look at
Buddhism, the same way they lookat Islam, and their objective
is to help you understandreligion as a phenomenon.
Why would you want to go there?
Easy, my father went toseminary.
My father was a seminary.
I've been in the AMU seminary.
(12:32):
I've been reading these books.
I've been reading religion.
I know all this stuff like theback of my hand.
I'm a religion philosophy majorat Morehouse.
I was attracted to Harvardbecause what makes it good for
me might have made it bad forsome other people.
But the thing I liked about itwas you didn't have to take
particular courses, you just hadto.
(12:55):
They had like area one, whichwas like Bible and
interpretation.
Area two was like theology andculture.
Area three was world religion,theology and Culture.
Area 3 was World Religion.
You could take any class fromany school in the Harvard
(13:19):
University system if you couldmake an argument that it fit in
that category.
So what that meant is yourdegree really could be
multidisciplinary, becauseyou're like you didn't have to
take Old Testament, you didn'thave to take pastoral care and
counseling.
You could take any class fromany school at anywhere at
Harvard If you can make theargument that this achieves the
objective of that area.
What time of the differentclasses that you took that were
I took design from the school ofdesign.
(13:42):
I took intro to marketing fromthe business school.
I took politics and culturefrom the Kennedy school of
design.
I took intro to marketing fromthe business school.
I took politics and culturefrom the Kennedy School of
Government.
So I was attracted to the factthat basically I could get you
know world class informationfrom world class professors and
not be tied into, you know,reading the introduction to the
New Testament, which I hadalready done.
(14:03):
How long was that program?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Three years, and what was your life like in those
three years in Boston?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Man, I was hardly in Boston.
Number one Hardly went to class.
I was in revival.
You was a preacher from now on.
I liked Harvard because youknow you go into class.
There's 500 people, they giveyou a syllabus, you have section
and they give you the syllabus.
(14:30):
You usually have an exam at theend.
You can go to section if youwant to, but the faculty are
superstars.
You just have office hours withthem, write the paper at the
end and you barely have to be inclass.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So you're at Harvard.
You're preaching everywhere.
You're careerized, careerized.
You're super focusedEconomically.
You're stable, to say the least, because you're living in
Boston.
You're at Harvard.
What are?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
your struggles at this.
What are you struggling with?
Nothing, I'm a prince Doc.
I don't have a care in theNothing.
I'm a Prince doc.
Yeah, I don't have a care inthe world.
Yeah, I'm doing whatever I wantto do.
So until I forge my work studysupervisor's signature on a
payment and am forced towithdraw for a year.
(15:21):
So your second year and and andmy second year like I had work
study um, I had work, study, youknow like that that you get you
know like a hundred hours.
I'm just doing it because I haveto do it.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It's a prerequisite for my financial aid.
Yeah, and you know.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I was going somewhere I couldn't get in.
I just forged it, gave it toher.
I was forced to withdraw for ayear.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Did you have to go through a panel or something?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, they bought me before the academic, whatever
committee was.
They said you know you're verygifted, but we feel as though if
we let you get away with thisit it will hurt you long term.
So we're going to force you towithdraw and we're snatching
(16:14):
your scholarship.
You're going to have to pay forthe rest of your time here
because we feel like there arepeople more deserving than you
and you don't appreciate howprivileged you are.
Walk me through that.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Deeply embarrassing.
So who did you have?
Who was the first call you haveto make?
Who are you leaning on duringthis time?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I don't call anybody because I'm so embarrassed I
decided to keep it to myself.
I don't tell anybody for a verylong time.
I just try to solve the problem.
I called one of my mentors,congressman Floyd Flake.
He said I want to come work foryou for the summer.
When the summer was over I saidman, I loved it so much.
Can I stay for the year,knowing I couldn't go back for a
(17:03):
year?
But I didn't tell him that.
But the world being as small asit is, that level being as
tight as it is, that circle, iteventually came out and he
confronted me and they made mesit out a year and get
counseling which I got from mydean at Moore.
I was a guy named LawrenceGardner who made you sit out for
(17:24):
a year Harvard Academic StudyCommittee.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
When you said it came out, it came out among out for
a year, harvard, the academicstudy committee.
When you said it came out, itcame out among the AME circle.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, it came out among the AME circle.
And then what did they do toyou?
Nothing, they just shook theirheads like man.
It's not like church people, no,but talked about me in a sense
that not as more so like you,better be grateful that this
happened now, where the stakesare smaller than 10 years from
(17:53):
now, where you know, forging awork study document is one thing
, forging an application for amortgage loan or something else
gotcha.
So I think they were glad thatit happened because up to that
point I was so gifted that theflaws in my character were
overlooked.
Your dad never found out.
(18:14):
He did um, he was moredisappointed than angry, more
embarrassed than wrathful.
But I think for him he's tellme all the time he said, all the
time where your gifts are gonnatake you.
(18:35):
I've never been.
I just want you to keep yourfeet on the ground and always do
what's right.
And for him, I think, eventhough it was embarrassing to
him, I think he was glad that ithappened Because it clipped my
wings at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Your lesson humbled you All day long, the time that
you were propelling All day long.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Preferred it happen then than you know when the
stakes were much higher.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
How did they find?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
out.
Well, I can't go back to school.
No, how did they find out?
You forged a document.
Oh well, it's publicinformation.
If you call, they'll tell youno, no, no, I'm saying how did
you get caught?
They called my supervisor.
Now what's crazy is I was notthe only one, but I was the only
one who was withdrawn.
(19:25):
But I was the only one who waswithdrawn.
Were you the only one black?
No, it was four of us black.
I never spilled the beans.
Oh, you didn't snitch, you heldthem down.
I'm 10 toes.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, You're a rapper .
That's that rapper in you man.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And what's crazy, I could have got out of it if I
wanted to, but at the time to.
To be honest, I think I wasembarrassed too.
You could have got out of thehouse.
Actually, one of my mentors wasa faculty member at Harvard and
I had a lot of support, andsome of the other people who had
(20:02):
forged documents.
I could have thrown them allunder the bus.
I can't tell you why I didn'tGot you Thrown them under the
bus and you got off the hook.
It'd be like we all did it atthe same time.
Yeah, and if you take thepictures of all these signatures
, you'll see they all look alike.
But I didn't make a big fussabout it, I think probably
(20:22):
because I was embarrassed.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
When you come back to Harvard.
Is there acclimation process?
Is there Well before you getback to Harvard that year?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I work in Washington DC, you work in Washington DC.
You landed on your feet 105thCongress, 105th Congress and six
actually.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Emotionally.
How are you, though?
Because you're kind of wearing,you know the weight of Well no,
I mean, you're over it, man.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I'm over it because I always wanted to work for
Congressman Flake.
I wanted to work at his church,but at the time, you know again,
he's a pastor, he's a pastor,he's a congressman.
I wanted to see how, how he wasable to merge those and so that
(21:14):
that year in DC actually a yearand a half in DC was again one
of those pivotal experiencesTaught me a lot of things
actually taught me about thesynergy between religion and
politics.
It also taught me about thelimitations of politics, he told
me once.
He told me many things, but oneof the things he told me during
that year it was that politics,politicians and preachers have
several things in common.
He said the most importantthing they have in common is
(21:36):
that they both can count.
And he said if you have membersin your church, you can be as
political as you want to be,because at the end of the day,
what motivates a politician isvotes.
He was a policy cat, but healso understood that his
influence was ultimately basedon the fact that thousands of
people came to his church everyweek and he used that as a
(22:01):
platform to help people and hisrecord of achievement in
Southeast Queens is justincredible, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Absolutely.
He's great um.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
That's often overlooked um yeah, so I'm in dc
, you go back to you, go back toharvard and now I have to work.
Uh right, you lost yourscholarship, lost my scholarship
.
So now I I took a job at theurban league, you know, and I'm
(22:29):
still preaching.
And let's see, this is 95.
I meet my first wife, who's astudent at Harvard Law School,
get married that year, and thenshe, she finished, and then I
y'all finished simultaneously.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Okay, and then what's ?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
the next thing after graduation Allen AME Church in
Hartford Connecticut.
I get ordained and now I'm atAllen AME Church in Hartford
Connecticut your wife gets a jobin Connecticut as well, in New
York, in New York, so she'scommuting, so we reside in
Norfolk, in Norwalk, connecticut.
Your wife gets a job inConnecticut as well, in New York
, in New York, so she'scommuting, so we reside in
(23:12):
Norfolk, Connecticut, which isequidistant between Hartford and
New.
York.
So she's going into New York todo law and you've never seen
her before on campus before thatthird year.
No, no, no, I met her.
Well, you know we didn't talk,but I actually met her.
Well, you know when we talk,but I actually met her.
I met her at a panel at theKennedy school of government
(23:33):
called the age of response, thatthe age of the, uh, the role of
intellectuals in the age ofcrack.
Oh wow, 87, 89.
Yeah.
And I went there and I noticedthat she had like a salt and
pepper Bob, like that was realpopular back then, and up to
(23:54):
that point she was like thefirst normal black at least
normal to me like normal blackperson saw.
So I wasn't trying to holler tobe, I was just being friendly.
I was like man, where?
Like where are you from?
She's like oh, I'm an undergrad, I'm from atlanta.
My dad went to morehouse, soinstant connection, and we stay
in touch and then eventually, uh, uh, get married.
(24:18):
We were married our last yearand then she went to New York.
I went to Harvard.
I finally get my finalordination.
I go to Hartford.
How was that experience Hated itwhy they sent me to a geriatric
center.
It was probably 10 people there, the median age was probably 90
(24:38):
.
And I just I remember when wefirst, actually my first sunday,
we actually drove by the churchbecause it wasn't a church
building, was actually a houseright and, um, I remember she
looked at me and was like sothis is what you did all this
for?
To do that?
That's my question.
(24:58):
Like, why would?
Why do you think they did that?
It's the AME way.
They send you to a small church, then they send you to a medium
sized church, despite yourcredentials Irrelevant,
everybody has credentials, Imean, but your, credentials
everybody at a standpointHarvard preaching everywhere.
Don't make no difference.
Don't make no difference.
We send you to a small churchlike a startup church.
(25:20):
Then we're going to send you.
Now all my Baptist friends arelike man, are you crazy Because
you know in y'all's world?
Now here's what's different.
In the AME church they move youaround Baptist church.
They call you young becausethey send you to a small church.
You move up to a medium-sizedchurch.
(25:41):
You get a big church.
Then you run for bishop.
It's very much.
You know a corporate model.
You ascend up the hierarchy.
So you know you don't—Entry-level position.
That's exactly what it is Totest your loyalty to the system.
My father would reinterpretthat.
He'd say it's to beat theambition out of you, to make you
(26:04):
loyal to the system.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
How long are you there?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I stay there maybe a year.
I give the appointment back tothe bishop.
I say I'm not doing this.
And what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean what's the consequences?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
or something like that.
I kept my ordination.
I just said I didn't want topass the church.
Then I went to business school.
You went to business schoolwhere University of Connecticut
at Hartford Got an MBA.
So you're out of preaching atthis point.
Well, I'm still preachingitinerarily but.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I'm not past, you Are you still AME?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yes, so are you still like in all the benefits?
Well, benefits, I don't knowwhat you mean, because don't
y'all have like retirementbenefits and everything?
Not really?
Oh, okay, no, I keep myordination butI decide I don't
want to do that pastor thatchurch.
I give the appointment back tothe bishop and I enroll.
(27:07):
Actually, I'm actually.
What happens is I make a fewcalls because I wanted to go to
like a like a big 10 businessschool guy I went to school with
, who was a manager at MorganStanley, was like well, joe, the
problem with your, yourapproach, is one you're a
(27:29):
preacher to, you're going to becompeting with people who want
to be CEOs.
If you don't want to be a CEO,then you should go to like a
midsize regional school.
They would be happy to havesomebody like you with your
background, and so that's what Idid.
Uconn gave me a fullscholarship and I got what's
called the Ernst and Youngsomething or another.
(27:52):
Ernst and Young back then was abig six accounting firm.
Oh Ernst and Young is still big,yeah, was a big six accounting
firm.
Oh, ernst Young is still big,yeah.
So with the scholarship cameguaranteed internships and
employment when you got finished.
So for the next year and a half, because I didn't accelerate a
program, I went to businessschool during the day, I worked
(28:17):
in the Hartford and New Yorkoffices of Ernst Young in the
afternoon and I preached atnight.
When I graduated from UConn,ernst Young was bought by
Capgemini, which was a Frenchconsulting firm.
I thought that I would be moreinterested on the consulting
(28:39):
side of things than theaccounting side of things, like
it was like I could do it but itwas boring.
So, um, we went to like thisglobal something in Disneyland
and I talked to the lady, so shegave me a shot my first day.
So the way that the consultingworld worked back then you would
(29:00):
have to bid on a project, solike, let's say they were, they
were like process consultants.
So say, coca-cola hiredCapgemini to teach them how to
be more efficient in a bottlingplant, right, you would have to
go bid on the projects.
They bring in all theseconsulting firms.
(29:20):
You'd have to bid in it.
Well, they asked me to be apart of this bidding project and
asked me to make thepresentation.
Well, of course we know whathappens.
They find out I'm a preacherand I can present well, so they
just send me to do all the bidsbecause I can go in there.
(29:40):
You know, read a document theyspent six months putting
together and just present and itworked.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So you're working in this corporate world.
When do you get back intoformerly?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
church pastor.
Yeah, so the way the AME Churchworks is every four years or
something called the generalconference, the general
conference bishops are elected.
Oh yes, bishops are elected,then bishops are assigned.
The way to Amy.
Church is organized.
The whole world is divided into24 geographical units.
(30:17):
The geographic units correspondroughly with regions of the
country.
So, like the first district ofthe six states in the Northeast,
the fifth district iseverything from Missouri to
California and of coursedistricts vary by prestige.
Depends on how many churcheswhatever.
The more senior the bishop, themore chance you have an
(30:38):
opportunity to be the bishopover that region.
So now 2000 is coming, right,2000 is coming, and one of my
mentors, a guy named JohnRichard Bryant, has ascended in
the hierarchy and now he's goingto be assigned for the first
time a major district right, 350churches.
(30:58):
It's called a fifth district,from Missouri all the way to
California, right, well, I'vealways wanted to be in a major
city because my study ofChristianity suggested that it
always did well when it was bywater Right, in very diverse
environments.
So I find out the bishop isgoing to be assigned to the
(31:20):
fifth.
He's preaching at HowardUniversity.
I, I, I, I go to the serviceafterwards I say, bishop, you
know me, my whole life I've beenpreparing my whole life to
serve.
If you go to the fifth district, I'd like to go with you.
Oh, joe, you just want to makemoney, you ain't serious about
church.
I was like no Bishop, I want tocome help you.
(31:43):
Your style of ministry.
You've known me since I was ababy, you know I just put on the
whole AME thing.
He's like all right, well, if Igo I'm going to need some help.
He gets assigned to the fifth.
He calls me and says do youstill want to come?
I say yes.
Now in my mind I think I'mgoing to California.
(32:05):
In my mind I'm like all right,all right, bishop.
He says well, come to thismeeting.
The meeting was in Oakland orsomewhere.
I think I got something for you.
I go to the meeting.
He says I'm sending you to StJames AME Church in St Louis.
Now, of course that wasn't whatI had in mind.
(32:25):
But he says I'm going to bringyou in to St Louis.
We'll see how you do and ifthings go well, I'll send you to
(32:46):
California.
So on October 31st 2000, I gotassigned to St James AME Church
in St Louis, missouri.
Now at the time I'm living inNew York, I'm traveling all over
the world, but I decide I'mgoing to keep my job because I
don't want to live in St Louis.
You know, I know I'm going tokeep my job.
I'll just fly out on theweekend because it's St Louis.
(33:06):
Like who wants to be in StLouis?
until I go until I go to StLouis and I say you know what
this might could be something?
You decided to like it.
No, I just felt that.
And I say you know what thismight could be something?
You decided to like it.
No, I just felt that, or apossibility.
(33:27):
I felt that it was the kind ofenvironment where all of these
ideas I had for ministry andwhat I had been called to do
could finally come to fruition.
It was a big old church in themiddle of the ghetto.
My first Sunday, the firstthree candidates for mayor were
there.
It was a.
(33:48):
It was a historic, traditionalAME church.
He, which at the time was oneof the largest in the entire
fifth district.
So, Bishop, he really set me up, you know.
I mean he was like all right,let's see what you can do.
I'm 30 years old, married andgot a three month year old baby.
(34:08):
How long were you there?
I was there for four years.
So I'm going because in 2004, aman named Chip Murray, who
passed his first AME church, isscheduled to retire.
So you know, AME church teachesyou how to be strategic.
I'm only coming because, in mymind, I'm going to first AME
(34:33):
After you finish in St James andSt Louis.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
This is just a you did good in St James Church grew
.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Church exploded.
I and St Louis this is just ayou did good in St James Church
grew, church exploded.
I'm great.
I'm like okay, we have a testcase.
All right, quick question yourpay is the same no matter what
happens with the church?
No, okay, it's not like theUnited Methodist Church where
they give you a baseline.
It's, you know, like if youcan't raise it, you can't spend
it.
Now, certain churches arestronger than others, and St
(34:59):
James was a very strong church.
The church, when I got there,was 120 years old, my first year
.
The church was so old that whenI went to get a copy of the
corporation papers they had totake me to a different building
because the church wasincorporated in 1868.
Wow, the Amy Church in Missouriwas founded in the Missouri
(35:22):
River because, you remember,missouri was a slave state.
Illinois was a free state whenDaniel Alexander Payne started
it.
Black people couldn't gather inMissouri, so they had church in
the river between the twostates.
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I mean it was that type of thing, I mean, I mean
like, like, so what was the?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
membership, like when you got there, Um, the building
sat, I think, a thousand.
My first Sunday, which don'tcount, was maybe 500 people
there.
The next Sunday it might'vebeen 50, maybe 60.
Cause the mayors was there.
That's why you know it was.
It was the new guy.
I'm the new guy yeah, you know.
And what did it grow to?
(36:00):
Um, yeah, when I left, we, wehad two full services.
Probably about 5 000 peoplejoined the church in about a
three and a half year period.
So what happens with you?
Think you're going to first ame?
Yeah, so we had we.
You know.
All right, bishop, I got allthe credentials.
(36:21):
Now, of course, you know I mademy share of mistakes.
You know y'all think I'm flashynow.
I was much flashier then.
I'm this New York fast-talkingslick guy in conservative St
Louis.
I'm young, I'm brash, I'm young, I'm brash, I'm 30.
(36:42):
I'm winning.
I'm doing y'all a favor iny'all backwards town.
You know all of that.
So you're a little pompousthere.
No, not pompous, more like bullin a china shop.
Just like y'all are crazy.
Y'all are behind.
Y'all don't know what you'redoing, right?
I got all this education.
(37:03):
Big city boy Went to Harvard.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I'm here to help y'all natives, you know come on.
Yuton's business school All ofthat, all of that.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Man, you can't tell me nothing.
Yeah, you know, but they did.
And them people taught me howto pastor in St Louis.
Yeah, no doubt about it, butthey knew that I was just there
for a season.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I knew I was just there for a season and it was a
great season.
God taught me a lot.
Thank you for joining us onNuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time, thank you.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Let's trace this migration alittle bit.
If you don't mind, you're atMorehouse, obviously excelling
at Morehouse, but in a differentway.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What do you mean by that?
Morehouse introduced me to whatthey call the black preaching
prophetic tradition.
You know, martin Luther Kingwent to Morehouse.
So you know, if you're areligion of philosophy major,
they have a subtle ambition toturn you into Martin Luther King
.
But Morehouse really broadenedmy world in a way that it had
(01:06):
not been, and it introduced menot only to black Christian
excellence but black excellenceacross the board.
Benjamin Mays, who was not aMorehouse man but was a PhD from
University of Chicago in 1940,created that institution and for
him, he wanted to.
(01:27):
This man was so incredible,right, that someone once called
him boy on his way to class inChicago and he decided never to
wear a hat again because the manwho called him boy told him to
take his hat off.
So this guy's so crazy, right?
He from 96, south Carolina.
This guy's so crazy, right.
He from 96 south canada.
He's so crazy.
He's in chicago and you knowwhat the weather is like there
(01:51):
absolutely without a hat on, inprotest to how he could be
treated if someone made him takeit off.
That's the guy who built morehouse, wow, um.
They made us memorize one ofhis framed quotes which for me
is something of a personalconstitution.
Tragedy in life is notachieving your goals.
(02:15):
The tragedy of life is havingno goals to achieve.
It is not a calamity to diewithout having fulfilled your
dreams, but it is a calamity notto dream.
It's not a disaster not toreach the stars.
It is a disaster to have nostars to reach for.
Not sin, not failure, but lowaim is sin.
(02:37):
I mean, that was stitched intoour minds and, as a result,
morehouse, relative to its size,if you look at its alumni, has
just produced some amazing menwho carried those ideals, which
transcends race.
It wasn't about being the bestblack, it was about being the
best.
Whatever you do, do it so thatno man living born or yet to be
(03:00):
born could do it any better, yetto be born could do it any
better.
So that commitment toexcellence, that commitment to
being the best, that desire tonot only make a contribution but
to be an example, blew my mind.
I tell people all the time itwasn't so much what I read in
(03:20):
books, but just in that soil.
Then you add to that atMorehouse, man, it's a factory
dock for creating preachers.
I mean because we havemandatory chapel every Tuesday
and Thursday.
And man, at Morehouse, that'sthe first time I heard Caesar
Clark, that's the first time Iheard Charles Adams, first time
(03:45):
I heard Otis Moss.
Like it was for a preacher, itwas heaven.
So it broadened my concept ofexcellence and you're down there
with the best and the brightestfrom wherever they come from.
So you know, everybody atMorehouse was the class
president.
You know everybody at Morehousewas the preacher.
(04:06):
Everybody at Morehouse, youknow, had a 1500 on an SAT and
had a GPA.
So you're in an environmentthat is not only stretching you
emotionally but it's stretchingyou psychologically, because if
you can't handle other giftedpeople, you're just not going to
survive.
So it forces you not only toappreciate excellence but to
(04:30):
appreciate excellence in othersand some of my most enduring
friends I mean Raphael Warnock,who's now a senator, who's now a
senator.
I remember sitting, you know,in chapel with him talking about
(04:51):
the foes on the back of GardnerTaylor's neck.
Yeah, I mean, I mean.
So I mean it was just.
It was a center of blackexcellence and, without question
, one of the best decisions ofmy life.
And my dad didn't want me to go.
Why did you want to go?
To be honest, I went down therefor something called a
(05:13):
prospective student seminar.
It was like a week long.
Well, no, it's actually.
It's a guy named Gregory Grover.
He passed the Strauss-Rieh-AmyChurch in Boston, massachusetts.
He had gone to Morehouse.
He got he preached theStrauss-Rieh Charles F Amy
Church and I in Boston,massachusetts he had gone to
Morehouse.
He preached his trial sermon atmy dad's church and he kept
telling me you need to go toMorehouse, you need to go to
Morehouse.
So he said he heard they werehaving like a week-long interest
session for like kids who wereinterested.
(05:35):
I was like man, I'll go.
And man, it was duringhomecoming and the step show was
at Spelman and I saw them womendown there.
I was like there's a guy namedJohn Gates.
I never forget he was like thecoordinator.
I had never met someone my agewho was so eloquent and whose
(05:57):
woman was so fine.
I said, man, I want to be likehim, I'm going down here.
So my desire to go more housewas was neither academic, nor
spiritual, nor ethical.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So you did no more research after that.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
It was just so everything that you experienced,
all these pros all thesebenefits, I had been admitted to
Yale and I had been admitted toSt John's University and had
received full scholarships toboth.
I came back from that trip andtold my daddy I'm going to
Morehouse.
He almost had a heart attackbecause of course they gave me
not a cent.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Oh wow, I would have made you go to Yale.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, he was very upset for a long time because he
thought well, I don't think heunderstood what Morehouse was.
But you didn't either I didn't,either Judgmental.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You didn't understand what Morehouse was.
You didn't either.
You just went to a step show.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
John Gates had a fine woman, but judgmental in the
sense, like I think, for him heassumed it's intrinsic
inferiority.
It's a black school, sotherefore it could not be as
good as a Yale.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I mean, this is obviously divine providence.
We understand that, but at thesame time, you didn't think that
it was Well I didn't, but Ididn't assume that it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
You see what I mean.
Like I'm not, but I didn'tassume that it wasn't.
You see what I mean.
Like I'm not saying my motiveswere charitable, or?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
honorable no, no, no, I'm not judging your motives.
I mean, you're 17, 18 years old.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I'm just saying though, I didn't assume that it
was inferior.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
There's a lot of schools you could have went to
and visited that would have hadlike fine women in step shows.
I'm going to tell you what theydidn't have at Yale.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
No, no not Yale, not Yale, but if you were the
Southern St John either, yes,Southern maybe, maybe Tuskegee
Maybe, but I'm not sure theywould have had John Gates,
though that's what I'm saying.
The caliber of guy down thereis different.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, I mean you could have met somebody just
with the same swag or the sameintellect.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I could have I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I'm trying to nuisantly free your dad.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well, here's the difference.
Right, I totally understand.
Here's the difference.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
What your father is saying no, no no, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, here's a good way to talk about it.
Fast forward 20 years, right?
So my youngest son, he's atHoward right now.
My oldest son, he graduatedfrom Harvard.
We went to see one of mycousins she's president of a
bank in Columbia, South Carolina, and she asked my oldest son,
(08:43):
Malachi, this was last summer.
She said to him well, how comeyou didn't go to black college,
Carolina?
And she asked my oldest son,Malachi, this was last summer.
She, she said to him well, howcome you didn't go to black
college?
He's like well, I grew up inAtlanta.
I was kind of over it.
I felt like going to Harvardwould be better for me.
Now he's not lying in terms ofthe opportunity that comes, but
(09:06):
if you just look at the statsand you look at the incredible
impact and contributions thatpeople who have gone to Moss
have made, we ain't far behind.
Far behind, you know.
And what I'm saying is, in myfather's worldview, a black
(09:27):
college was intrinsically no.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I got you.
And that to me was what I thinkI bristled up against.
I don't think I don't think hefelt it was intrinsically lower
than a white school.
I think he felt it wasintrinsically lower than Yale,
who was doing a full ride.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
He didn't have to pay either way, so it don't make no
difference.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
I don't think it's just like you went.
Oh, you went to, you know,phoenix University.
It was full ride at Yale.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Both might be true.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, it's true, I'm trying to get you to see Both
might be true.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, mine is true.
I'm trying to get you to seeBoth might be true, no, but it—.
Especially when we're talking1987.
87.
87.
Yeah, especially 87.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
He's like man why.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Just why.
But you know, you know what.
It reminds me of a conversation.
You know I think it wasgenerational.
Like you know, the white man'sice is cold.
I really think it'sgenerational Because when I went
to Harvard, I had anotherprofessor who I shall remain
nameless.
He asked me oh Joe, what do youwant to do when you finish?
You know, you're highlyintelligent, gifted, you know
(10:39):
faculty likes you.
I said I want to be a preacher.
You know what he said to me whywould you waste your life doing
that?
He said anybody can do that.
Well.
I said to him well, anybody cando it.
Well.
In fact, I think in a lot ofways my entire ministry is a
protest against that assumption.
It was more that.
To me it was anybody can chooseLike anybody can go to black
(11:01):
school.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
How did you there, let's get, how did you get your?
You're at, you're at Morehouse,you're selling your, your, it's
blowing your mind, theexperiences, those things of
that nature.
Obviously, academically, youstay on track, um graduation
time.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
It's the next box to BA and me.
You got to go to seminary.
You got to go to seminary.
So the question is whatseminary am I going to?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
go to what?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
seminaries did you look at?
I only looked at one, onlylooked at one.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's the one I went to.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Harvard, I only looked at one.
I only went to one for tworeasons I didn't want to go home
, which was New York, because Icould have gone to Union
Seminary.
But I felt if I went to Union Iwould go to class less than I
did when I went to Harvard andtheir curriculum like most
traditional.
Well, first of all, harvard isa divinity school.
(11:49):
It's not a seminary, which wasthe other source of my
attraction.
What's the difference?
Seminaries are typicallyChristian in their orientation,
their beliefs, their faculty,and they give a structured
curriculum that's designedprincipally for paid for
ministry.
A divinity school sees religionas a subject for academic
(12:12):
inquiry.
They don't privilege anytradition.
So they look at Christianitythe same way they look at
Buddhism, the same way they lookat Islam, and their objective
is to help you understandreligion as a phenomenon.
Why would you want to go there?
Easy, my father went toseminary.
My father was a seminary.
I've been in the AMU seminary.
(12:32):
I've been reading these books.
I've been reading religion.
I know all this stuff like theback of my hand.
I'm a religion philosophy majorat Morehouse.
I was attracted to Harvardbecause what makes it good for
me might have made it bad forsome other people.
But the thing I liked about itwas you didn't have to take
particular courses, you just hadto.
(12:55):
They had like area one, whichwas like Bible and
interpretation.
Area two was like theology andculture.
Area three was world religion,theology and Culture.
Area 3 was World Religion.
You could take any class fromany school in the Harvard
(13:19):
University system if you couldmake an argument that it fit in
that category.
So what that meant is yourdegree really could be
multidisciplinary, becauseyou're like you didn't have to
take Old Testament, you didn'thave to take pastoral care and
counseling.
You could take any class fromany school at anywhere at
Harvard If you can make theargument that this achieves the
objective of that area.
What time of the differentclasses that you took that were
I took design from the school ofdesign.
(13:42):
I took intro to marketing fromthe business school.
I took politics and culturefrom the Kennedy school of
design.
I took intro to marketing fromthe business school.
I took politics and culturefrom the Kennedy School of
Government.
So I was attracted to the factthat basically I could get you
know world class informationfrom world class professors and
not be tied into, you know,reading the introduction to the
New Testament, which I hadalready done.
(14:03):
How long was that program?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Three years, and what was your life like in those
three years in Boston?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Man, I was hardly in Boston.
Number one Hardly went to class.
I was in revival.
You was a preacher from now on.
I liked Harvard because youknow you go into class.
There's 500 people, they giveyou a syllabus, you have section
and they give you the syllabus.
(14:30):
You usually have an exam at theend.
You can go to section if youwant to, but the faculty are
superstars.
You just have office hours withthem, write the paper at the
end and you barely have to be inclass.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So you're at Harvard.
You're preaching everywhere.
You're careerized, careerized.
You're super focusedEconomically.
You're stable, to say the least, because you're living in
Boston.
You're at Harvard.
What are?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
your struggles at this.
What are you struggling with?
Nothing, I'm a prince Doc.
I don't have a care in theNothing.
I'm a Prince doc.
Yeah, I don't have a care inthe world.
Yeah, I'm doing whatever I wantto do.
So until I forge my work studysupervisor's signature on a
payment and am forced towithdraw for a year.
(15:21):
So your second year and and andmy second year like I had work
study um, I had work, study, youknow like that that you get you
know like a hundred hours.
I'm just doing it because I haveto do it.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It's a prerequisite for my financial aid.
Yeah, and you know.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I was going somewhere I couldn't get in.
I just forged it, gave it toher.
I was forced to withdraw for ayear.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Did you have to go through a panel or something?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, they bought me before the academic, whatever
committee was.
They said you know you're verygifted, but we feel as though if
we let you get away with thisit it will hurt you long term.
So we're going to force you towithdraw and we're snatching
(16:14):
your scholarship.
You're going to have to pay forthe rest of your time here
because we feel like there arepeople more deserving than you
and you don't appreciate howprivileged you are.
Walk me through that.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Deeply embarrassing.
So who did you have?
Who was the first call you haveto make?
Who are you leaning on duringthis time?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I don't call anybody because I'm so embarrassed I
decided to keep it to myself.
I don't tell anybody for a verylong time.
I just try to solve the problem.
I called one of my mentors,congressman Floyd Flake.
He said I want to come work foryou for the summer.
When the summer was over I saidman, I loved it so much.
Can I stay for the year,knowing I couldn't go back for a
(17:03):
year?
But I didn't tell him that.
But the world being as small asit is, that level being as
tight as it is, that circle, iteventually came out and he
confronted me and they made mesit out a year and get
counseling which I got from mydean at Moore.
I was a guy named LawrenceGardner who made you sit out for
(17:24):
a year Harvard Academic StudyCommittee.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
When you said it came out, it came out among out for
a year, harvard, the academicstudy committee.
When you said it came out, itcame out among the AME circle.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, it came out among the AME circle.
And then what did they do toyou?
Nothing, they just shook theirheads like man.
It's not like church people, no,but talked about me in a sense
that not as more so like you,better be grateful that this
happened now, where the stakesare smaller than 10 years from
(17:53):
now, where you know, forging awork study document is one thing
, forging an application for amortgage loan or something else
gotcha.
So I think they were glad thatit happened because up to that
point I was so gifted that theflaws in my character were
overlooked.
Your dad never found out.
(18:14):
He did um, he was moredisappointed than angry, more
embarrassed than wrathful.
But I think for him he's tellme all the time he said, all the
time where your gifts are gonnatake you.
(18:35):
I've never been.
I just want you to keep yourfeet on the ground and always do
what's right.
And for him, I think, eventhough it was embarrassing to
him, I think he was glad that ithappened Because it clipped my
wings at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Your lesson humbled you All day long, the time that
you were propelling All day long.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Preferred it happen then than you know when the
stakes were much higher.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
How did they find?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
out.
Well, I can't go back to school.
No, how did they find out?
You forged a document.
Oh well, it's publicinformation.
If you call, they'll tell youno, no, no, I'm saying how did
you get caught?
They called my supervisor.
Now what's crazy is I was notthe only one, but I was the only
one who was withdrawn.
(19:25):
But I was the only one who waswithdrawn.
Were you the only one black?
No, it was four of us black.
I never spilled the beans.
Oh, you didn't snitch, you heldthem down.
I'm 10 toes.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, You're a rapper .
That's that rapper in you man.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And what's crazy, I could have got out of it if I
wanted to, but at the time to.
To be honest, I think I wasembarrassed too.
You could have got out of thehouse.
Actually, one of my mentors wasa faculty member at Harvard and
I had a lot of support, andsome of the other people who had
(20:02):
forged documents.
I could have thrown them allunder the bus.
I can't tell you why I didn'tGot you Thrown them under the
bus and you got off the hook.
It'd be like we all did it atthe same time.
Yeah, and if you take thepictures of all these signatures
, you'll see they all look alike.
But I didn't make a big fussabout it, I think probably
(20:22):
because I was embarrassed.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
When you come back to Harvard.
Is there acclimation process?
Is there Well before you getback to Harvard that year?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I work in Washington DC, you work in Washington DC.
You landed on your feet 105thCongress, 105th Congress and six
actually.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Emotionally.
How are you, though?
Because you're kind of wearing,you know the weight of Well no,
I mean, you're over it, man.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I'm over it because I always wanted to work for
Congressman Flake.
I wanted to work at his church,but at the time, you know again,
he's a pastor, he's a pastor,he's a congressman.
I wanted to see how, how he wasable to merge those and so that
(21:14):
that year in DC actually a yearand a half in DC was again one
of those pivotal experiencesTaught me a lot of things
actually taught me about thesynergy between religion and
politics.
It also taught me about thelimitations of politics, he told
me once.
He told me many things, but oneof the things he told me during
that year it was that politics,politicians and preachers have
several things in common.
He said the most importantthing they have in common is
(21:36):
that they both can count.
And he said if you have membersin your church, you can be as
political as you want to be,because at the end of the day,
what motivates a politician isvotes.
He was a policy cat, but healso understood that his
influence was ultimately basedon the fact that thousands of
people came to his church everyweek and he used that as a
(22:01):
platform to help people and hisrecord of achievement in
Southeast Queens is justincredible, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Absolutely.
He's great um.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
That's often overlooked um yeah, so I'm in dc
, you go back to you, go back toharvard and now I have to work.
Uh right, you lost yourscholarship, lost my scholarship
.
So now I I took a job at theurban league, you know, and I'm
(22:29):
still preaching.
And let's see, this is 95.
I meet my first wife, who's astudent at Harvard Law School,
get married that year, and thenshe, she finished, and then I
y'all finished simultaneously.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Okay, and then what's ?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
the next thing after graduation Allen AME Church in
Hartford Connecticut.
I get ordained and now I'm atAllen AME Church in Hartford
Connecticut your wife gets a jobin Connecticut as well, in New
York, in New York, so she'scommuting, so we reside in
Norfolk, in Norwalk, connecticut.
Your wife gets a job inConnecticut as well, in New York
, in New York, so she'scommuting, so we reside in
(23:12):
Norfolk, Connecticut, which isequidistant between Hartford and
New.
York.
So she's going into New York todo law and you've never seen
her before on campus before thatthird year.
No, no, no, I met her.
Well, you know we didn't talk,but I actually met her.
Well, you know when we talk,but I actually met her.
I met her at a panel at theKennedy school of government
(23:33):
called the age of response, thatthe age of the, uh, the role of
intellectuals in the age ofcrack.
Oh wow, 87, 89.
Yeah.
And I went there and I noticedthat she had like a salt and
pepper Bob, like that was realpopular back then, and up to
(23:54):
that point she was like thefirst normal black at least
normal to me like normal blackperson saw.
So I wasn't trying to holler tobe, I was just being friendly.
I was like man, where?
Like where are you from?
She's like oh, I'm an undergrad, I'm from atlanta.
My dad went to morehouse, soinstant connection, and we stay
in touch and then eventually, uh, uh, get married.
(24:18):
We were married our last yearand then she went to New York.
I went to Harvard.
I finally get my finalordination.
I go to Hartford.
How was that experience Hated itwhy they sent me to a geriatric
center.
It was probably 10 people there, the median age was probably 90
(24:38):
.
And I just I remember when wefirst, actually my first sunday,
we actually drove by the churchbecause it wasn't a church
building, was actually a houseright and, um, I remember she
looked at me and was like sothis is what you did all this
for?
To do that?
That's my question.
(24:58):
Like, why would?
Why do you think they did that?
It's the AME way.
They send you to a small church, then they send you to a medium
sized church, despite yourcredentials Irrelevant,
everybody has credentials, Imean, but your, credentials
everybody at a standpointHarvard preaching everywhere.
Don't make no difference.
Don't make no difference.
We send you to a small churchlike a startup church.
(25:20):
Then we're going to send you.
Now all my Baptist friends arelike man, are you crazy Because
you know in y'all's world?
Now here's what's different.
In the AME church they move youaround Baptist church.
They call you young becausethey send you to a small church.
You move up to a medium-sizedchurch.
(25:41):
You get a big church.
Then you run for bishop.
It's very much.
You know a corporate model.
You ascend up the hierarchy.
So you know you don't—Entry-level position.
That's exactly what it is Totest your loyalty to the system.
My father would reinterpretthat.
He'd say it's to beat theambition out of you, to make you
(26:04):
loyal to the system.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
How long are you there?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I stay there maybe a year.
I give the appointment back tothe bishop.
I say I'm not doing this.
And what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean what's the consequences?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
or something like that.
I kept my ordination.
I just said I didn't want topass the church.
Then I went to business school.
You went to business schoolwhere University of Connecticut
at Hartford Got an MBA.
So you're out of preaching atthis point.
Well, I'm still preachingitinerarily but.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I'm not past, you Are you still AME?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yes, so are you still like in all the benefits?
Well, benefits, I don't knowwhat you mean, because don't
y'all have like retirementbenefits and everything?
Not really?
Oh, okay, no, I keep myordination butI decide I don't
want to do that pastor thatchurch.
I give the appointment back tothe bishop and I enroll.
(27:07):
Actually, I'm actually.
What happens is I make a fewcalls because I wanted to go to
like a like a big 10 businessschool guy I went to school with
, who was a manager at MorganStanley, was like well, joe, the
problem with your, yourapproach, is one you're a
(27:29):
preacher to, you're going to becompeting with people who want
to be CEOs.
If you don't want to be a CEO,then you should go to like a
midsize regional school.
They would be happy to havesomebody like you with your
background, and so that's what Idid.
Uconn gave me a fullscholarship and I got what's
called the Ernst and Youngsomething or another.
(27:52):
Ernst and Young back then was abig six accounting firm.
Oh Ernst and Young is still big,yeah, was a big six accounting
firm.
Oh, ernst Young is still big,yeah.
So with the scholarship cameguaranteed internships and
employment when you got finished.
So for the next year and a half, because I didn't accelerate a
program, I went to businessschool during the day, I worked
(28:17):
in the Hartford and New Yorkoffices of Ernst Young in the
afternoon and I preached atnight.
When I graduated from UConn,ernst Young was bought by
Capgemini, which was a Frenchconsulting firm.
I thought that I would be moreinterested on the consulting
(28:39):
side of things than theaccounting side of things, like
it was like I could do it but itwas boring.
So, um, we went to like thisglobal something in Disneyland
and I talked to the lady, so shegave me a shot my first day.
So the way that the consultingworld worked back then you would
(29:00):
have to bid on a project, solike, let's say they were, they
were like process consultants.
So say, coca-cola hiredCapgemini to teach them how to
be more efficient in a bottlingplant, right, you would have to
go bid on the projects.
They bring in all theseconsulting firms.
(29:20):
You'd have to bid in it.
Well, they asked me to be apart of this bidding project and
asked me to make thepresentation.
Well, of course we know whathappens.
They find out I'm a preacherand I can present well, so they
just send me to do all the bidsbecause I can go in there.
(29:40):
You know, read a document theyspent six months putting
together and just present and itworked.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So you're working in this corporate world.
When do you get back intoformerly?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
church pastor.
Yeah, so the way the AME Churchworks is every four years or
something called the generalconference, the general
conference bishops are elected.
Oh yes, bishops are elected,then bishops are assigned.
The way to Amy.
Church is organized.
The whole world is divided into24 geographical units.
(30:17):
The geographic units correspondroughly with regions of the
country.
So, like the first district ofthe six states in the Northeast,
the fifth district iseverything from Missouri to
California and of coursedistricts vary by prestige.
Depends on how many churcheswhatever.
The more senior the bishop, themore chance you have an
(30:38):
opportunity to be the bishopover that region.
So now 2000 is coming, right,2000 is coming, and one of my
mentors, a guy named JohnRichard Bryant, has ascended in
the hierarchy and now he's goingto be assigned for the first
time a major district right, 350churches.
(30:58):
It's called a fifth district,from Missouri all the way to
California, right, well, I'vealways wanted to be in a major
city because my study ofChristianity suggested that it
always did well when it was bywater Right, in very diverse
environments.
So I find out the bishop isgoing to be assigned to the
(31:20):
fifth.
He's preaching at HowardUniversity.
I, I, I, I go to the serviceafterwards I say, bishop, you
know me, my whole life I've beenpreparing my whole life to
serve.
If you go to the fifth district, I'd like to go with you.
Oh, joe, you just want to makemoney, you ain't serious about
church.
I was like no Bishop, I want tocome help you.
(31:43):
Your style of ministry.
You've known me since I was ababy, you know I just put on the
whole AME thing.
He's like all right, well, if Igo I'm going to need some help.
He gets assigned to the fifth.
He calls me and says do youstill want to come?
I say yes.
Now in my mind I think I'mgoing to California.
(32:05):
In my mind I'm like all right,all right, bishop.
He says well, come to thismeeting.
The meeting was in Oakland orsomewhere.
I think I got something for you.
I go to the meeting.
He says I'm sending you to StJames AME Church in St Louis.
Now, of course that wasn't whatI had in mind.
(32:25):
But he says I'm going to bringyou in to St Louis.
We'll see how you do and ifthings go well, I'll send you to
(32:46):
California.
So on October 31st 2000, I gotassigned to St James AME Church
in St Louis, missouri.
Now at the time I'm living inNew York, I'm traveling all over
the world, but I decide I'mgoing to keep my job because I
don't want to live in St Louis.
You know, I know I'm going tokeep my job.
I'll just fly out on theweekend because it's St Louis.
(33:06):
Like who wants to be in StLouis?
until I go until I go to StLouis and I say you know what
this might could be something?
You decided to like it.
No, I just felt that.
And I say you know what thismight could be something?
You decided to like it.
No, I just felt that, or apossibility.
(33:27):
I felt that it was the kind ofenvironment where all of these
ideas I had for ministry andwhat I had been called to do
could finally come to fruition.
It was a big old church in themiddle of the ghetto.
My first Sunday, the firstthree candidates for mayor were
there.
It was a.
(33:48):
It was a historic, traditionalAME church.
He, which at the time was oneof the largest in the entire
fifth district.
So, Bishop, he really set me up, you know.
I mean he was like all right,let's see what you can do.
I'm 30 years old, married andgot a three month year old baby.
(34:08):
How long were you there?
I was there for four years.
So I'm going because in 2004, aman named Chip Murray, who
passed his first AME church, isscheduled to retire.
So you know, AME church teachesyou how to be strategic.
I'm only coming because, in mymind, I'm going to first AME
(34:33):
After you finish in St James andSt Louis.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
This is just a you did good in St James Church grew
.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Church exploded.
I and St Louis this is just ayou did good in St James Church
grew, church exploded.
I'm great.
I'm like okay, we have a testcase.
All right, quick question yourpay is the same no matter what
happens with the church?
No, okay, it's not like theUnited Methodist Church where
they give you a baseline.
It's, you know, like if youcan't raise it, you can't spend
it.
Now, certain churches arestronger than others, and St
(34:59):
James was a very strong church.
The church, when I got there,was 120 years old, my first year
.
The church was so old that whenI went to get a copy of the
corporation papers they had totake me to a different building
because the church wasincorporated in 1868.
Wow, the Amy Church in Missouriwas founded in the Missouri
(35:22):
River because, you remember,missouri was a slave state.
Illinois was a free state whenDaniel Alexander Payne started
it.
Black people couldn't gather inMissouri, so they had church in
the river between the twostates.
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I mean it was that type of thing, I mean, I mean
like, like, so what was the?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
membership, like when you got there, Um, the building
sat, I think, a thousand.
My first Sunday, which don'tcount, was maybe 500 people
there.
The next Sunday it might'vebeen 50, maybe 60.
Cause the mayors was there.
That's why you know it was.
It was the new guy.
I'm the new guy yeah, you know.
And what did it grow to?
(36:00):
Um, yeah, when I left, we, wehad two full services.
Probably about 5 000 peoplejoined the church in about a
three and a half year period.
So what happens with you?
Think you're going to first ame?
Yeah, so we had we.
You know.
All right, bishop, I got allthe credentials.
(36:21):
Now, of course, you know I mademy share of mistakes.
You know y'all think I'm flashynow.
I was much flashier then.
I'm this New York fast-talkingslick guy in conservative St
Louis.
I'm young, I'm brash, I'm young, I'm brash, I'm 30.
(36:42):
I'm winning.
I'm doing y'all a favor iny'all backwards town.
You know all of that.
So you're a little pompousthere.
No, not pompous, more like bullin a china shop.
Just like y'all are crazy.
Y'all are behind.
Y'all don't know what you'redoing, right?
I got all this education.
(37:03):
Big city boy Went to Harvard.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I'm here to help y'all natives, you know come on.
Yuton's business school All ofthat, all of that.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Man, you can't tell me nothing.
Yeah, you know, but they did.
And them people taught me howto pastor in St Louis.
Yeah, no doubt about it, butthey knew that I was just there
for a season.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I knew I was just there for a season and it was a
great season.
God taught me a lot.
Thank you for joining us onNuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.