Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
How was that interview process?
How was those four months thatconsists of interviews?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Bishop said it's your job.
The rest is just formality.
Just do what they tell you.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Do what?
Who tell you?
Whoever At the church?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
church and no, they had an interview prize that like
they had all that.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
But he said, man, it's your job, go through, just
go through the process, gothrough the process you know, of
course, at the time I didn'tknow.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
There were 300 of the candidates, but Bishop decided
he wanted me, and how do youresign?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
do you tell Bishop Bryant, how does that happen?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
So Bishop Bryant is preaching at no, I'm sorry.
So Bishop Jones is preaching ata church in Baltimore and
Bishop Bryant is there.
And Bishop Jones gets up andsays oh man, I'm so glad to see
Bishop Bryant man, I'm so gladto see Bishop Bryant man.
I just hired Joe, Bishop, youweren't supposed to say that.
(01:33):
You know, because in the AMUchurch, once you accept a
position in any otherdenomination, it invalidates
your ordination, Really yes.
Validate your ordination,Really yes.
But to his credit and as atribute to his integrity and his
(01:54):
incredible impact on my life.
Bishop didn't stop it.
Bishop said well, joe, ifthat's what you want to do, do
it.
And when Bishop called I foundthis out later.
And when, bishop you know,because on, on that level
they're all friends when, whenbishop jones called uh, bishop
brian, and asked him, he's likeno, joe will help you, he could
have stopped it.
How could he stopped it?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
because what I did was illegal.
But what would he, what couldhe?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
he could have called bishop jones and said don't hire
him got you okay, but there'sno legal ramifications, no like.
I couldn't have gone to jailjust the penalty of being your
organization is and you're goinginto now, won this Pentecostal.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Do you have to be ordained by them?
So it's just credential basedbishop to bishop.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So bishop is the bishop this is who we want.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
how was that experience?
How long were you want?
How was that experience?
How long were you there and howwas that experience?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Incredible phenomenal A graduate course in
ministerial and preachingexcellence, the honor of being
trusted to run an organizationthat size, to see a first-rate
(03:08):
intellect and a preacher ofenormous skill wield his gift on
a weekly basis, and tounderstand the cost of it all.
I have nothing but great thingsto say about Noah Jones.
(03:28):
Not too many people on his levelwho would give someone on my
level the chance he did.
I tell people all the time.
He gave me the checkbook andthe keys and said run my church.
It was like starting a churchinside a megachurch Because, to
Bishop's credit, he, like many,do appreciate the structural
(03:52):
thing that the AME church has,which is entrenched us.
So he wanted to build a versionof that within his ministry and
it was.
I mean it was great.
I mean he gave me what a lot ofpeople don't give, and that's
opportunity.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
That's 2004 to 2000, 2005 to 2007.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So just two years.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Two years, oh wow, I feel like it's longer.
You were there.
You're also preaching a lot.
You run an administration, butyou're also preaching a lot
there and around the country.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, not so much the country, because the deal was
if you come here, I need youhere Monday through Friday.
I need you here Monday throughSunday and you know, Bishop, at
that time Seed Refuge had sixservices a week and probably for
two years I preached probablymost of them Because Bishop was
(04:52):
gone.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
What was the?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
six services, three on Sunday and then well, five,
and then two Bible classes.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
What was the times of the five services?
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Eight, ten, six, Then Wednesday noon and seven, so
three on Sunday and two duringthe week.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Wow, and what are they?
What is?
This is in Gardena Campus atthis point, yeah, and then after
.
That is when Resurrection isbirthed, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Bishop fires me.
Okay, why are you fired?
He said that it was funny.
I think two reasons.
So Bishop Jones followed alegendary figure in Los Angeles
named Bishop RW McMurray.
(05:49):
When Bishop McMurray broughtBishop Jones in, bishop McMurray
was sick.
He had been ill for many years.
The bishop said to me when Ifirst got here.
He said well, I'm bringing youin, like McMurray brought me in,
but the difference between meand Mac is I'm not sick.
And then.
(06:12):
So I think what Bishop realizedis I think he is hard to turn a
battleship that large thatquickly.
And I think that, bishop, heoverestimated the extent to
which I would embrace theculture he had established and
(06:44):
underestimated the extent towhich the culture that he had
established would react to me.
There's a better way to saythat would react to me.
There's a better way to saythat when there's an organ
transplant, there's a largepossibility that the body won't
receive the new organ.
And I think Bishop brought mein so quickly and gave me so
(07:08):
much authority that it didn'tgive a lot of the people who
were working there theopportunity to adjust to it.
Like literally, I'm there andthe next week I'm running staff
meetings.
So I think that I think therewas, and justifiably so.
(07:29):
Bishop had never had anexecutive pastor.
There was never a number two.
There were many people in thechurch who thought they were
going to get the position.
And then you bring this35-year-old kid in and give him
the keys to the Bentley andwe're supposed to listen to him.
So it's a beta.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It's a beta position, and while everything was going
well, there was adjustmentsinfrastructurally wise.
Internally, I would sayinternally that caused tension,
and so it was best to let you go.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, bishop said to me you're going to be all right,
you know, but I probably, hesaid.
He said I probably should havebought you in five years ago and
gradually worked you into theinfrastructure because you know,
the people were great.
But the leadershipinfrastructure, the staff
infrastructure, they had somequestions that I think he was
(08:27):
expecting me to address which Iassumed had been addressed
before I got there, because,again, I'm coming from the AME
church.
In the AME church, everythingis structured, everything is
laid out and the Pentecostalchurch is very different.
Baptist church is verydifferent.
Like, for example, you know, itwas easy for you to win the
vote because you had been atthat church.
How long.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Eight years?
I think it was Eight years.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Could somebody have won the vote?
Who had been there two weeks?
Probably not, because inBaptist churches, pentecostal
churches, authority is mediateddifferently.
In the Amy church you just showup with a piece of paper and
you're the pastor.
So I'm assuming, hey man, I'mthe executive pastor.
I remember the first staffmeeting.
(09:10):
I'm getting up and I'm saying Iwas brought in because y'all
ain't right.
Somebody might get fired, butit won't be me.
You know we laugh now aboutthat.
But again, no real orientationto no real orientation and on my
part just a massive misreadingof the situation.
So I tell people all the timeyou know somebody has you, they
(09:32):
can fire you.
I'm not upset, it just didn'twork.
Bishop and I remain friends.
He has remained a trustedadvisor.
And I tell people all the timeI have nothing bad to say about
him because he gave me what alot of people want, and that's a
chance.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, so many lessons in that, so many lessons in
that, so you immediately startyour new work.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Not immediately.
My intention was to go home andrest, but I'm on the plane and
said what's home, because NewYork was what's home at the time
.
My family is living inPhiladelphia, my dad is passing
Philadelphia, I'm in myintention Okay, I'm going to
start a church, but I'm on, waitthree months.
I'm on the plane.
The spirit says, if you waitthree months, that's too long.
(10:16):
So I turn around and I launchResurrection on Father's Day of
2007.
I got fired in May of 2007.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
How was those beginning years of this?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
new work for you.
My first Sunday there were 500people there.
There were many people who saidto me, paz, we will never leave
Resurrection, but weappreciated your work there.
We value your ministry.
Never leave City Refuge.
We will never leave City Refuge, but we value your work.
(10:51):
We appreciate that.
Bishop gave you the opportunity.
We want to help you start andthat's what a lot of them did.
Wow, yeah, our first Sunday wasCSU Dominguez.
I tell people all the time Ididn't, apart from my time at
the City of Refuge.
Of course God can do anythingof refuge.
(11:16):
Of course God can do anything,but to minimize or ignore or
underestimate the impact of thatthere.
There is no resurrectionwithout my time at the city
refuge, gotcha, and Bishop wasvery supportive.
He said I'm not going to helpyou, but I'm not going to hurt
you.
Yeah, so who did help you?
That's a good question.
How much time do we have Menand women whose names you'll
(11:40):
never know?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, who helped you as far as pastors?
Oh, pastors, yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm Thank you, tom.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
What do you mean?
Helped h-e-l-p.
Pastor jamal bryant, pastordelman coats.
They don't live in la thoughyou asked me who they were not
where they were from bishop noeljones.
You said he wasn't going tohelp you.
You asked me who they were, notwhere they were from.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Bishop Noel Jones.
You said he wasn't going tohelp you.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Bishop John Bryant but he helped you by not hurting
you.
He helped by not hurting Gotcha.
Bishop Sedgwick Daniels ofMilwaukee, wisconsin.
My father died, dean LawrenceEdward Carter.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
How's the experience been as it relates to now being
a founding pastor?
You're coming from structure,structure, structure, structure,
structure.
Now you are it.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
How was that?
I realized God does all thingswell, because if the structure
is, right it's easy to build abuilding.
So everything I had just knowninstinctively, I mean again I
had passed on every level right,so you were able to do many
things organically.
I was in the mid-side, I was ina megachurch, so now I'm in the
(13:14):
only other church I haven't beenin which is a startup.
So now I'm in the only otherchurch I haven't been in which
is a startup, and what I foundis that all of those experiences
were very very, very helpful inhelping me build the type of
structure.
Pastor Delman Coates gave mesome of the best advice when I
started, and I say this topastors all the time.
He said Pastor said Joe, pastor, church, you got not the one
(13:40):
you was at.
And so that's what I did.
I was complaining to my fatherone time.
I was like you know, they don'thave this, they don't have that
, they don't have this.
He said well, son, I'm going totell you two things.
He said the world is hungry forthe living bread.
Lift the Savior up for them tosee and if all else fails,
(14:04):
pastor, have a good night.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
What is your current reality at your church?
Where are you located?
What's your service times?
What's your ministry focus?
What's your pillars, where youwant to be, where you want to go
?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I know all that is just will flow from you
organically people ask me allthe time I'll make it real quick
for you how are things going atresurrection?
My response is always the samethey think I'm being facetious,
but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
We're still open no, no, okay, I got that where are
you located?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
we're located in carson carson cars.
How long have you been in thatlocation?
So our ministry started at CSUDominguez Hills in 2007.
2010, we moved to Janice Street, which is about five minutes
away, and we've been there eversince.
We are blessed Most startupministries.
I don't know what the attritionrate is in Los Angeles.
(14:55):
It's probably very high.
Very, very, very high, very,very, very, very, very, very,
very, very high.
We just celebrated 17 years.
Now you have to understand toothat 17 years is kind of
deceptive, because you know,three of them were during a
pandemic.
So we started a church in 2007.
A year later there's arecession.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
you know 10 years later, because of the pandemic,
is more 20 years than 17 years,probably not being a whole 17.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Well, we were, we were, we were a prepubescent
adult when the pandemic hit.
From a ministry standpoint,yeah.
So when I look at how God hasfavored us, I am not being
facetious at all when I say weare blessed, we are blessed.
What's your service.
What's your time?
930.
(15:44):
We have one service.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
One service at 930?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
930 am, and then a digital experience at 6 o'clock
pm.
And what does that mean?
You know, you can watch onYouTube or wherever else.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So it's not a live stream at 930?
No.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Sometimes it depends.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Sometimes, but for the most part it's just that,
and then what about midweek?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
No, midweek.
We started something calledMotivation Mondays and it is
very interesting.
Post-pandemic, I found out thatpeople were less interested in
information and more interestedin community.
Less interested in informationand more information and more
interested in community.
So, on a whim, I startedsomething called motivation
Mondays, where the men and thewomen have biblically based
conversations about issuesrelevant to their struggles, and
(16:27):
that has been extraordinarilysuccessful.
Does it happen in virtual space?
No, no, no, in person.
Live on campus, on the campus,men in one spot, women in the
other.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And just have conversations.
Do they eat and stuff like that?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
They snuggle in Doritos, but you know it's
nothing, it's not a formaleating thing.
Yeah, they just sit down.
Actually, the men, so the womenjust got finished a book called
your Money and your man, andthe men are working through John
Elridge's Wild at Heart, and soI just pick an issue or a topic
that emerges in a conversationand use that to facilitate
(17:02):
conversation and community, andthey absolutely love it.
We started something calledduring the pandemic, instead of
Bible class I would do a weeklyblog, which just took off, which
just took off.
So that's so Monday motivations, that conversation.
And we have Friday focus, whereI send out a blog every Friday
morning at eight o'clock on anissue or concern.
(17:25):
We started something called uh,what's that thing?
On Wednesdays who were doing uh, rewind Wednesday?
So the purpose of rewindWednesday was to have a
conversation about the previousuh message that Sunday.
That didn't go too well so Ipulled the plug on that.
Okay.
So again, post-pandemic,pre-pandemic I found more desire
(17:49):
for community and experience,less desire for information.
So the traditional idea youjust stand up teaching Bible
study, going book by book.
They seem like they like thattoo much.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
What projects do you weigh or weighing on you that
you want to do?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Absolutely none.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, what do you mean by that?
Absolutely none Like zero.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Zero, ok, yeah, and why is that?
I think and I may be acontrarian in this regard I
think that, for I think the postpandemic church has committed
(18:36):
two mistakes.
Church has committed twomistakes.
The first mistake that we havecommitted is that we define
success as going back towhatever was, and I think that
whatever was before the pandemicis no longer and is not coming
back, and this idea that I don'tthink what normal is has been
(19:00):
established yet.
And so I think, in our zeal torecover whatever was because you
know, before the pandemic, youknow we had doing this, doing
that we got four services onSunday, like all that is I just,
people have changed theirappetites, have changed their
desires, how we are supposed toserve has changed.
(19:23):
I think failure to accept thatreality has led to the second
problem, and that is, man, wejust throwing stuff on the wall,
trying to find out what's goingto stick.
Yeah, and I think most leaderswould do themselves and their
people a great service if theyjust admitted you know what, I
(19:43):
don't really know what I'msupposed to be doing right now.
I don't really know.
And so I have given ourministry and our leaders the
space to try to stand still onour watchtower and wait until
God tells us what to do.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, I got you.
You know I believe you, but Ireally don't believe you.
I'm serious.
I know you said people tell youthis all the time, but I visit
Resurrection.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
It's before I even knew you.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I think somebody knew me and we met afterwards, and
so I know you up to something.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
You don't have to share your nuanced conversation.
No, I'm telling you, we'll findout.
I'm telling you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
It may just be in the residence.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
No, no, actually I don't need you to tell somebody,
I don't need nobody.
If I don't believe you, I won'tbelieve you.
You're going to call somebodyelse.
I ain't going to believe him.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Actually, actually, I am up to something I do.
I know it may not be what youthink, but I wouldn't consider
this something, but I can seehow this is something.
So I think during the pandemic,my key leaders and my key staff
came to me and they said,pastor, we are worn out, we are
(21:02):
tired.
During the pandemic, I wouldsay, 50 percent of my key
leaders and staff eitherrelocated, retired or had a
significant life change, likethey got married, they adopted
some kids, they went on a junglesafari in Kenya and found
(21:23):
themselves you know what I meanLike just fundamental life
change.
And they all came back and theysaid pastor, we're tired.
We have different objectives.
We're in a different season.
We want to do X, y, z, stilllove you, still love the church,
but we have recalibrated ourcommitment.
Many of my key staff members areso good at what they do.
(21:45):
They took positions withcompanies out of town requires
them to travel Just monumentallife change.
So really, actually, what I'mworking on in this season is
building a bench, because thefirst 10 years we had an
exceptional group of people whoserved well, but what I found
(22:08):
out was you know, you have, eventhough you may have excellent
people in different positions.
If you don't have a bench, froma longevity standpoint, you're
not going to be able to sustainyour ministry.
So, really, the season I'm in,which explains why we really
aren't doing too much, istraining and developing um, a a
(22:30):
core of leaders, um who canreproduce themselves.
So I'm in a season ofleadership development.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, that's.
I mean, that's one of my'm in aseason of leadership
development.
Yeah, that's one of my burdensin life of always being right
and always knowing stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Because that's the major thing.
What you just said is different.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I'm not up to anything, but I don't really see
it.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
No, yeah, I mean, I get it.
I don't see it as a thing, Iguess, because it's internal.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
No, like I said, it's in your mind, it's in the
residue of your mind.
No, like internal to the church, I'm right.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
It's hard to be right.
All the time I forgot this wasa nuance, Listen we got to get
you out of here it was so funny.
You're talking about what we'regoing to do Right, we're out of
time Already.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, because this is what we do here.
Hey, man, get your importantstuff.
I'm laughing at people talkingabout it.
Yeah, we ain't getting yourimportant stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Let me do what I do, and then you'll see what it be
Okay.
So, let's get just one funthing out of you before we get
out of here.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I know we started golfing together.
It didn't go that well.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I'm trying dog, I don't know I was trying to find
any excuse to be around somebodythat had been to Harvard and
Morehouse and worked for ErnstYoung and went to St Louis and
found 5,000 people to go tochurch.
You're so kind.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
And on, and, on, and on.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
But as it relates to living or dead, if you could
spend an hour with somebody, whowould that person be Dead?
I'm sorry, not living Dead.
Yeah, the Apostle Paul.
Apostle Paul.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, why?
It is absolutely stunning to methat a man with who lived in a
(24:33):
world where there were noChristian buildings, no Bible,
who had nothing except a blazingintellect and a heart that had
been touched by an encounter ona road in Damascus, got on ships
(24:57):
, got on ships and walkedthousands of miles into hostile
territory in a culture wherepeople had radical, radically
opposing ideas of whatChristianity was all about, and
(25:19):
planted the gospel in such a waythat we're still reading about
it today.
And the real sense is define thegospel, define the gospel, yeah
yeah, a guy who could writeRomans, dictating it to an
(25:41):
Emanuansis, why he's on a ship.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to have anhour with him.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, man, thanks for giving usmore than an hour of your time
here and nuanced conversations.
I would hope that you wouldlike follow or subscribe to the
channel, check us out on alldigital platforms where you can
find your podcast, where youfind podcasts, and also consider
being a supporter of thiseffort, this media effort, and
(26:17):
even if you want to be a sponsor, reach out to us and let us
know.
Thank you so much, pastorRobinson.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Thank you for the invitation.
You're a great man, thanks forcoming, brother.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Thank you, man.
All right we out.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
How was that interview process?
How was those four months thatconsists of interviews?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Bishop said it's your job.
The rest is just formality.
Just do what they tell you.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Do what?
Who tell you?
Whoever At the church?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
church and no, they had an interview prize that like
they had all that.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
But he said, man, it's your job, go through, just
go through the process, gothrough the process you know, of
course, at the time I didn'tknow.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
There were 300 of the candidates, but Bishop decided
he wanted me, and how do youresign?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
do you tell Bishop Bryant, how does that happen?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
So Bishop Bryant is preaching at no, I'm sorry.
So Bishop Jones is preaching ata church in Baltimore and
Bishop Bryant is there.
And Bishop Jones gets up andsays oh man, I'm so glad to see
Bishop Bryant man, I'm so gladto see Bishop Bryant man.
I just hired Joe, Bishop, youweren't supposed to say that.
(01:33):
You know, because in the AMUchurch, once you accept a
position in any otherdenomination, it invalidates
your ordination, Really yes.
Validate your ordination,Really yes.
But to his credit and as atribute to his integrity and his
(01:54):
incredible impact on my life.
Bishop didn't stop it.
Bishop said well, joe, ifthat's what you want to do, do
it.
And when Bishop called I foundthis out later.
And when, bishop you know,because on, on that level
they're all friends when, whenbishop jones called uh, bishop
brian, and asked him, he's likeno, joe will help you, he could
have stopped it.
How could he stopped it?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
because what I did was illegal.
But what would he, what couldhe?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
he could have called bishop jones and said don't hire
him got you okay, but there'sno legal ramifications, no like.
I couldn't have gone to jailjust the penalty of being your
organization is and you're goinginto now, won this Pentecostal.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Do you have to be ordained by them?
So it's just credential basedbishop to bishop.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So bishop is the bishop this is who we want.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
how was that experience?
How long were you want?
How was that experience?
How long were you there and howwas that experience?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Incredible phenomenal A graduate course in
ministerial and preachingexcellence, the honor of being
trusted to run an organizationthat size, to see a first-rate
(03:08):
intellect and a preacher ofenormous skill wield his gift on
a weekly basis, and tounderstand the cost of it all.
I have nothing but great thingsto say about Noah Jones.
(03:28):
Not too many people on his levelwho would give someone on my
level the chance he did.
I tell people all the time.
He gave me the checkbook andthe keys and said run my church.
It was like starting a churchinside a megachurch Because, to
Bishop's credit, he, like many,do appreciate the structural
(03:52):
thing that the AME church has,which is entrenched us.
So he wanted to build a versionof that within his ministry and
it was.
I mean it was great.
I mean he gave me what a lot ofpeople don't give, and that's
opportunity.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
That's 2004 to 2000, 2005 to 2007.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So just two years.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Two years, oh wow, I feel like it's longer.
You were there.
You're also preaching a lot.
You run an administration, butyou're also preaching a lot
there and around the country.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, not so much the country, because the deal was
if you come here, I need youhere Monday through Friday.
I need you here Monday throughSunday and you know, Bishop, at
that time Seed Refuge had sixservices a week and probably for
two years I preached probablymost of them Because Bishop was
(04:52):
gone.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
What was the?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
six services, three on Sunday and then well, five,
and then two Bible classes.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
What was the times of the five services?
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Eight, ten, six, Then Wednesday noon and seven, so
three on Sunday and two duringthe week.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Wow, and what are they?
What is?
This is in Gardena Campus atthis point, yeah, and then after
.
That is when Resurrection isbirthed, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Bishop fires me.
Okay, why are you fired?
He said that it was funny.
I think two reasons.
So Bishop Jones followed alegendary figure in Los Angeles
named Bishop RW McMurray.
(05:49):
When Bishop McMurray broughtBishop Jones in, bishop McMurray
was sick.
He had been ill for many years.
The bishop said to me when Ifirst got here.
He said well, I'm bringing youin, like McMurray brought me in,
but the difference between meand Mac is I'm not sick.
And then.
(06:12):
So I think what Bishop realizedis I think he is hard to turn a
battleship that large thatquickly.
And I think that, bishop, heoverestimated the extent to
which I would embrace theculture he had established and
(06:44):
underestimated the extent towhich the culture that he had
established would react to me.
There's a better way to saythat would react to me.
There's a better way to saythat when there's an organ
transplant, there's a largepossibility that the body won't
receive the new organ.
And I think Bishop brought mein so quickly and gave me so
(07:08):
much authority that it didn'tgive a lot of the people who
were working there theopportunity to adjust to it.
Like literally, I'm there andthe next week I'm running staff
meetings.
So I think that I think therewas, and justifiably so.
(07:29):
Bishop had never had anexecutive pastor.
There was never a number two.
There were many people in thechurch who thought they were
going to get the position.
And then you bring this35-year-old kid in and give him
the keys to the Bentley andwe're supposed to listen to him.
So it's a beta.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
It's a beta position, and while everything was going
well, there was adjustmentsinfrastructurally wise.
Internally, I would sayinternally that caused tension,
and so it was best to let you go.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, bishop said to me you're going to be all right,
you know, but I probably, hesaid.
He said I probably should havebought you in five years ago and
gradually worked you into theinfrastructure because you know,
the people were great.
But the leadershipinfrastructure, the staff
infrastructure, they had somequestions that I think he was
(08:27):
expecting me to address which Iassumed had been addressed
before I got there, because,again, I'm coming from the AME
church.
In the AME church, everythingis structured, everything is
laid out and the Pentecostalchurch is very different.
Baptist church is verydifferent.
Like, for example, you know, itwas easy for you to win the
vote because you had been atthat church.
How long.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Eight years?
I think it was Eight years.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Could somebody have won the vote?
Who had been there two weeks?
Probably not, because inBaptist churches, pentecostal
churches, authority is mediateddifferently.
In the Amy church you just showup with a piece of paper and
you're the pastor.
So I'm assuming, hey man, I'mthe executive pastor.
I remember the first staffmeeting.
(09:10):
I'm getting up and I'm saying Iwas brought in because y'all
ain't right.
Somebody might get fired, butit won't be me.
You know we laugh now aboutthat.
But again, no real orientationto no real orientation and on my
part just a massive misreadingof the situation.
So I tell people all the timeyou know somebody has you, they
(09:32):
can fire you.
I'm not upset, it just didn'twork.
Bishop and I remain friends.
He has remained a trustedadvisor.
And I tell people all the timeI have nothing bad to say about
him because he gave me what alot of people want, and that's a
chance.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, so many lessons in that, so many lessons in
that, so you immediately startyour new work.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Not immediately.
My intention was to go home andrest, but I'm on the plane and
said what's home, because NewYork was what's home at the time
.
My family is living inPhiladelphia, my dad is passing
Philadelphia, I'm in myintention Okay, I'm going to
start a church, but I'm on, waitthree months.
I'm on the plane.
The spirit says, if you waitthree months, that's too long.
(10:16):
So I turn around and I launchResurrection on Father's Day of
2007.
I got fired in May of 2007.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
How was those beginning years of this?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
new work for you.
My first Sunday there were 500people there.
There were many people who saidto me, paz, we will never leave
Resurrection, but weappreciated your work there.
We value your ministry.
Never leave City Refuge.
We will never leave City Refuge, but we value your work.
(10:51):
We appreciate that.
Bishop gave you the opportunity.
We want to help you start andthat's what a lot of them did.
Wow, yeah, our first Sunday wasCSU Dominguez.
I tell people all the time Ididn't, apart from my time at
the City of Refuge.
Of course God can do anythingof refuge.
(11:16):
Of course God can do anything,but to minimize or ignore or
underestimate the impact of thatthere.
There is no resurrectionwithout my time at the city
refuge, gotcha, and Bishop wasvery supportive.
He said I'm not going to helpyou, but I'm not going to hurt
you.
Yeah, so who did help you?
That's a good question.
How much time do we have Menand women whose names you'll
(11:40):
never know?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, who helped you as far as pastors?
Oh, pastors, yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm Thank you, tom.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
What do you mean?
Helped h-e-l-p.
Pastor jamal bryant, pastordelman coats.
They don't live in la thoughyou asked me who they were not
where they were from bishop noeljones.
You said he wasn't going tohelp you.
You asked me who they were, notwhere they were from.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Bishop Noel Jones.
You said he wasn't going tohelp you.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Bishop John Bryant but he helped you by not hurting
you.
He helped by not hurting Gotcha.
Bishop Sedgwick Daniels ofMilwaukee, wisconsin.
My father died, dean LawrenceEdward Carter.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
How's the experience been as it relates to now being
a founding pastor?
You're coming from structure,structure, structure, structure,
structure.
Now you are it.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
How was that?
I realized God does all thingswell, because if the structure
is, right it's easy to build abuilding.
So everything I had just knowninstinctively, I mean again I
had passed on every level right,so you were able to do many
things organically.
I was in the mid-side, I was ina megachurch, so now I'm in the
(13:14):
only other church I haven't beenin which is a startup.
So now I'm in the only otherchurch I haven't been in which
is a startup, and what I foundis that all of those experiences
were very very, very helpful inhelping me build the type of
structure.
Pastor Delman Coates gave mesome of the best advice when I
started, and I say this topastors all the time.
He said Pastor said Joe, pastor, church, you got not the one
(13:40):
you was at.
And so that's what I did.
I was complaining to my fatherone time.
I was like you know, they don'thave this, they don't have that
, they don't have this.
He said well, son, I'm going totell you two things.
He said the world is hungry forthe living bread.
Lift the Savior up for them tosee and if all else fails,
(14:04):
pastor, have a good night.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
What is your current reality at your church?
Where are you located?
What's your service times?
What's your ministry focus?
What's your pillars, where youwant to be, where you want to go
?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I know all that is just will flow from you
organically people ask me allthe time I'll make it real quick
for you how are things going atresurrection?
My response is always the samethey think I'm being facetious,
but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
We're still open no, no, okay, I got that where are
you located?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
we're located in carson carson cars.
How long have you been in thatlocation?
So our ministry started at CSUDominguez Hills in 2007.
2010, we moved to Janice Street, which is about five minutes
away, and we've been there eversince.
We are blessed Most startupministries.
I don't know what the attritionrate is in Los Angeles.
(14:55):
It's probably very high.
Very, very, very high, very,very, very, very, very, very,
very, very high.
We just celebrated 17 years.
Now you have to understand toothat 17 years is kind of
deceptive, because you know,three of them were during a
pandemic.
So we started a church in 2007.
A year later there's arecession.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
you know 10 years later, because of the pandemic,
is more 20 years than 17 years,probably not being a whole 17.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Well, we were, we were, we were a prepubescent
adult when the pandemic hit.
From a ministry standpoint,yeah.
So when I look at how God hasfavored us, I am not being
facetious at all when I say weare blessed, we are blessed.
What's your service.
What's your time?
930.
(15:44):
We have one service.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
One service at 930?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
930 am, and then a digital experience at 6 o'clock
pm.
And what does that mean?
You know, you can watch onYouTube or wherever else.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So it's not a live stream at 930?
No.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Sometimes it depends.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Sometimes, but for the most part it's just that,
and then what about midweek?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
No, midweek.
We started something calledMotivation Mondays and it is
very interesting.
Post-pandemic, I found out thatpeople were less interested in
information and more interestedin community.
Less interested in informationand more information and more
interested in community.
So, on a whim, I startedsomething called motivation
Mondays, where the men and thewomen have biblically based
conversations about issuesrelevant to their struggles, and
(16:27):
that has been extraordinarilysuccessful.
Does it happen in virtual space?
No, no, no, in person.
Live on campus, on the campus,men in one spot, women in the
other.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And just have conversations.
Do they eat and stuff like that?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
They snuggle in Doritos, but you know it's
nothing, it's not a formaleating thing.
Yeah, they just sit down.
Actually, the men, so the womenjust got finished a book called
your Money and your man, andthe men are working through John
Elridge's Wild at Heart, and soI just pick an issue or a topic
that emerges in a conversationand use that to facilitate
(17:02):
conversation and community, andthey absolutely love it.
We started something calledduring the pandemic, instead of
Bible class I would do a weeklyblog, which just took off, which
just took off.
So that's so Monday motivations, that conversation.
And we have Friday focus, whereI send out a blog every Friday
morning at eight o'clock on anissue or concern.
(17:25):
We started something called uh,what's that thing?
On Wednesdays who were doing uh, rewind Wednesday?
So the purpose of rewindWednesday was to have a
conversation about the previousuh message that Sunday.
That didn't go too well so Ipulled the plug on that.
Okay.
So again, post-pandemic,pre-pandemic I found more desire
(17:49):
for community and experience,less desire for information.
So the traditional idea youjust stand up teaching Bible
study, going book by book.
They seem like they like thattoo much.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
What projects do you weigh or weighing on you that
you want to do?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Absolutely none.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, what do you mean by that?
Absolutely none Like zero.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Zero, ok, yeah, and why is that?
I think and I may be acontrarian in this regard I
think that, for I think the postpandemic church has committed
(18:36):
two mistakes.
Church has committed twomistakes.
The first mistake that we havecommitted is that we define
success as going back towhatever was, and I think that
whatever was before the pandemicis no longer and is not coming
back, and this idea that I don'tthink what normal is has been
(19:00):
established yet.
And so I think, in our zeal torecover whatever was because you
know, before the pandemic, youknow we had doing this, doing
that we got four services onSunday, like all that is I just,
people have changed theirappetites, have changed their
desires, how we are supposed toserve has changed.
(19:23):
I think failure to accept thatreality has led to the second
problem, and that is, man, wejust throwing stuff on the wall,
trying to find out what's goingto stick.
Yeah, and I think most leaderswould do themselves and their
people a great service if theyjust admitted you know what, I
(19:43):
don't really know what I'msupposed to be doing right now.
I don't really know.
And so I have given ourministry and our leaders the
space to try to stand still onour watchtower and wait until
God tells us what to do.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, I got you.
You know I believe you, but Ireally don't believe you.
I'm serious.
I know you said people tell youthis all the time, but I visit
Resurrection.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
It's before I even knew you.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I think somebody knew me and we met afterwards, and
so I know you up to something.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
You don't have to share your nuanced conversation.
No, I'm telling you, we'll findout.
I'm telling you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
It may just be in the residence.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
No, no, actually I don't need you to tell somebody,
I don't need nobody.
If I don't believe you, I won'tbelieve you.
You're going to call somebodyelse.
I ain't going to believe him.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Actually, actually, I am up to something I do.
I know it may not be what youthink, but I wouldn't consider
this something, but I can seehow this is something.
So I think during the pandemic,my key leaders and my key staff
came to me and they said,pastor, we are worn out, we are
(21:02):
tired.
During the pandemic, I wouldsay, 50 percent of my key
leaders and staff eitherrelocated, retired or had a
significant life change, likethey got married, they adopted
some kids, they went on a junglesafari in Kenya and found
(21:23):
themselves you know what I meanLike just fundamental life
change.
And they all came back and theysaid pastor, we're tired.
We have different objectives.
We're in a different season.
We want to do X, y, z, stilllove you, still love the church,
but we have recalibrated ourcommitment.
Many of my key staff members areso good at what they do.
(21:45):
They took positions withcompanies out of town requires
them to travel Just monumentallife change.
So really, actually, what I'mworking on in this season is
building a bench, because thefirst 10 years we had an
exceptional group of people whoserved well, but what I found
(22:08):
out was you know, you have, eventhough you may have excellent
people in different positions.
If you don't have a bench, froma longevity standpoint, you're
not going to be able to sustainyour ministry.
So, really, the season I'm in,which explains why we really
aren't doing too much, istraining and developing um, a a
(22:30):
core of leaders, um who canreproduce themselves.
So I'm in a season ofleadership development.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, that's.
I mean, that's one of my'm in aseason of leadership
development.
Yeah, that's one of my burdensin life of always being right
and always knowing stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Because that's the major thing.
What you just said is different.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I'm not up to anything, but I don't really see
it.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
No, yeah, I mean, I get it.
I don't see it as a thing, Iguess, because it's internal.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
No, like I said, it's in your mind, it's in the
residue of your mind.
No, like internal to the church, I'm right.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
It's hard to be right.
All the time I forgot this wasa nuance, Listen we got to get
you out of here it was so funny.
You're talking about what we'regoing to do Right, we're out of
time Already.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, because this is what we do here.
Hey, man, get your importantstuff.
I'm laughing at people talkingabout it.
Yeah, we ain't getting yourimportant stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Let me do what I do, and then you'll see what it be
Okay.
So, let's get just one funthing out of you before we get
out of here.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I know we started golfing together.
It didn't go that well.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I'm trying dog, I don't know I was trying to find
any excuse to be around somebodythat had been to Harvard and
Morehouse and worked for ErnstYoung and went to St Louis and
found 5,000 people to go tochurch.
You're so kind.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
And on, and, on, and on.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
But as it relates to living or dead, if you could
spend an hour with somebody, whowould that person be Dead?
I'm sorry, not living Dead.
Yeah, the Apostle Paul.
Apostle Paul.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, why?
It is absolutely stunning to methat a man with who lived in a
(24:33):
world where there were noChristian buildings, no Bible,
who had nothing except a blazingintellect and a heart that had
been touched by an encounter ona road in Damascus, got on ships
(24:57):
, got on ships and walkedthousands of miles into hostile
territory in a culture wherepeople had radical, radically
opposing ideas of whatChristianity was all about, and
(25:19):
planted the gospel in such a waythat we're still reading about
it today.
And the real sense is define thegospel, define the gospel, yeah
yeah, a guy who could writeRomans, dictating it to an
(25:41):
Emanuansis, why he's on a ship.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to have anhour with him.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, man, thanks for giving usmore than an hour of your time
here and nuanced conversations.
I would hope that you wouldlike follow or subscribe to the
channel, check us out on alldigital platforms where you can
find your podcast, where youfind podcasts, and also consider
being a supporter of thiseffort, this media effort, and
(26:17):
even if you want to be a sponsor, reach out to us and let us
know.
Thank you so much, pastorRobinson.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Thank you for the invitation.
You're a great man, thanks forcoming, brother.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Thank you, man.
All right we out.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
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