April 17, 2025 • 36 mins
Divine timing and narrative power take center stage as Dr. Chapman shares his remarkable 40-year ministry journey from rural Mississippi to Detroit's pulpit. Through vivid storytelling, he reveals how his father's distinctive preaching style—embodying biblical characters through first-person narration—shaped both his childhood and eventual approach to ministry.
The conversation delivers masterful examples of Black preaching traditions, where imagination and poetic expression transform familiar Bible stories into powerful, relatable messages. Dr. Chapman recreates his father's sermon about Elijah on Mount Carmel, showing how a small cloud "the size of a man's hand" becomes a powerful metaphor for God's ability to work through seemingly insignificant beginnings.
What truly captivates is the unmistakable thread of divine providence woven throughout Dr. Chapman's life. From his unlikely call to pastor Little Hope Baptist Church after just two sermons, to the extraordinary sequence of unplanned events that led him to Detroit—a meeting that should never have happened, a substitute preaching opportunity, and a snowstorm-defying church vote—each turn reveals God's guiding hand.
The emotional high point comes as Dr. Chapman recounts leaving his beloved rural congregations. Despite their offer to double his salary, he recognized God calling him elsewhere. "The day I had to leave those churches was a funeral," he shares, explaining how he needed multiple handkerchiefs because tears prevented him from finishing either farewell sermon.
For anyone wrestling with major life decisions, ministry transitions, or questions about divine guidance, this conversation offers profound wisdom through one pastor's authentic journey. Listen and consider: how might providence be working through unexpected moments in your own story?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So to back up for a second hey, is any of your other
siblings in?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
ministry Preaching, ministry no two are deacons
Gotcha, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And then you talked about your dad being a narrative
preacher, but he will infusehimself into the story.
Can you explain a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
called Three Minds at the Red Sea and his emphasis
was it was a mind of the people,mind of Moses, mind of God.
(01:13):
The mind of the people was togo back to Egypt.
The mind of Moses wasindecision, because he knew he
couldn't go back.
He's a fugitive, he's broughtall of the labor force out of
Egypt and he can't go forwardbecause the waves are lapping at
his feet.
(01:34):
So he's got a mind to just pray.
People have a mind to go backand only God's mind can prevail.
So he's Moses in the story.
He's saying guys, we can't goback.
And he gives these reasons whyy'all can't go back there.
And he says I can't be Godbecause I'm not God.
(01:58):
So I'm going to just stand hereand see what God is going to do
, and only God's mind canprevail.
So now the people are askinghim so what are is going to do?
And only God's mind can prevail.
So now the people are askinghim so what are we going to do?
He says well, I just got amessage from God.
He says we go forward.
So the people say to him nowhe's.
(02:19):
This is him narrating his ownstory.
He's Moses.
He said the people are sayingwe can't go back there and we
can't go forward.
He says hold on, I'm gettinganother message.
God says we handle the land,he'll handle the sea.
(02:43):
And he says now, he just toldme to stretch out this rod that
I have and he's going to show ussomething we've never seen
before.
And he goes all into this.
God shows us stuff we've neverseen before.
He said have y'all ever seenwaters divide?
He said I'm not talking aboutwhen you get in the tub.
(03:03):
He said I'm not talking aboutwhen you get in the tub.
He said I'm not talking aboutwhen you get in the pool, but
I'm talking about I see it.
And he says I'm going to seewhat's to this.
He's Moses right.
So he stretches out his rod andhe says hmm, he did it again.
Yeah, so God did it again.
(03:25):
So that's the kind of preacherhe was.
So on a weekly he would sort ofcreate, oh man you sit there and
scratch your head Wow, where isthis guy getting this stuff
from?
He came and did my anniversaryonce in Detroit, my pastoral
anniversary, and he preached thestory of Elijah defeating Ahab
(03:49):
and Jezebel on Mount Carmel,right.
So after God rains down firefrom heaven, well, he says it
this way after God made fire,drink water on heaven, he says.
He tells his servant go lookout over the sea and tell me
(04:11):
what you see.
And on that last trip theservant comes back and says I
think I see something and I seea cloud about the size of a
man's hand.
But now he goes into theservants.
Now some theologians or someseminary instructions would
(04:31):
contend that this is eisegeting.
But in the black preachingculture it's called imagination,
imagination and poeticexpression.
And that's the level he was onand poetic expression and that's
the level he was on.
So, without running the risk ofisogeeting, he says now I sent
you back six times.
You came here with a zeroreport.
(04:53):
He said on that seventh timeyou come back and said you see a
cloud about the size of a man'shand.
I said now, what do you thinkabout that?
He's in the server until he'sElijah, right?
So what do you think about that?
He's in the servitude.
He's Elijah, right.
So what do you think about that?
He said it ain't much.
He said it wasn't much when theLord started the world.
He said it wasn't much.
He just said let there be, andhere comes sun and stars and
(05:19):
moon and grass and people andanimals.
He said as a little boy who hada little lunch, he grass and
people and animals.
He said there was a little boywho had a little lunch.
He said that didn't look likemuch either.
And man, he just went on.
He just eat you alive with that.
So he says you said you saw acloud by the size of a man's
hand.
(05:39):
He said yes, sir.
He said well, son, a cloud is acloud.
He said if it's a cloud, it'sgot some water in it.
He said so now you tell Ahab toget down because it's about to
come a downpour here, and so onthe way down, ahab is in his
chariot, everybody's on the move, right?
(06:01):
Elijah is running.
And the text says Elijah runsby the chariot.
Oh, yeah, he runs.
So they said where are yougoing, elijah?
He said I'm running betweenraindrops, man.
And that was it.
The church went, it was over.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So was he a closer as well.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Oh, my God, man, if you've heard, there's what we
call a giggle in the blackpreaching tradition.
You hear Bernard Mitchell to acertain degree.
Now, mitchell and I came upunder the same tutelage, my dad
and Fred Chapman, who was acousin to my father.
(06:45):
He was that kind of closer andonce he has just delineated,
articulated his discourse, he'dgo into that black preacher
Afrikanic, you know rhythmiccadence and he would just shut
(07:06):
it down, so to speak, and find aperson in their seat.
If you could, lord, have mercy,yeah.
That's the kind of preachinginfluence that I had on my life.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah.
And so the years before youaccept your calling, you had, I
guess, certain moments where thepassion would hit you at
different times.
You're right At 19,.
You just couldn't.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You're right and I'm glad you mentioned that, because
at some times I was askingwhat's wrong with me Now.
I never liked using profanity,not that I didn't use it, but it
just wasn't me.
I never liked the taste of beer, which meant I tasted it.
(07:54):
As a kid I had a childhoodfriend.
His mother, grandmother,great-grandmother, was my
mother's hairstylist and sheowned several businesses,
apartments, hair salon and shewould sell soda pop and beer and
(08:14):
stuff like that.
So he would slip and get a canof beer right and try to drink.
So I took a sip of beer At thattime.
I think it was Slitz it mighthave been before your time yeah,
slitz, small liquor beer and Iand I was man, this is a nasty
stuff and I I spit it out andand later tried what they call
(08:35):
coolers you used to call themwine coolers and, for whatever
reason, made my stomach ache.
So I drunk one.
Well, maybe it was just food Iate.
So I tried another one atanother time.
Same thing.
Okay, I won't be doing thisanymore, right?
So I just didn't acquire ataste for alcohol.
(08:58):
I recall once after trackpractice I ran track.
Some of the teammates got undera viaduct away from traffic and
one of the guys pulled out amarijuana so they lit it and
they started smoking marijuana.
Chachi wanted this and I wasalways crazy about my body.
You know, I was an athlete.
(09:18):
I wanted to go and play collegeball, you know, make a lot of
money, right.
So I was always afraid of whatdrugs and alcohol would do to my
body.
So I didn't do it, not that Iwas holy, it was just my
consciousness.
Now the greater consciousnesswas if my father found out about
it.
He ran the police department,the sheriff department, you know
(09:41):
, the city council.
Everybody was afraid of himbecause of the kind of power he
had.
But he was also a strictdisciplinarian, not that he was
abusive, so I was more afraid ofhim than I was the police.
So I shied away from thosekinds of kind of, I guess, vices
.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, that's interesting.
You had this feeling likewhat's wrong with me?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, and I later came to know that it was God in
my life, every path that I wason that could have been in the
wrong direction.
It was always.
I did my spiritualautobiography and you know, when
you do your spiritualautobiography, you write about
every person, everything thathappened to you in your life,
(10:30):
good and bad.
And while reflecting andwriting, you know it turns out
that there was always somebodyto redirect me in a different
direction, a different direction.
Some incident happened thatcaused me to think otherwise or
(10:55):
do otherwise.
No-transcript, I would say,this road to understanding what
my calling to preach was about.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Mercy.
Yeah, so once you startpreaching, are you preaching
regularly or you're more just astudent and coming home and
preaching?
What is the migration of?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I immediately became an itinerant preacher.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Right away.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Because of my father's relationships with
other pastors.
I recall at one NationalBaptist Congress, I believe, in
Pittsburgh, and my father wasquite popular around the nation.
He never got his opportunity onthe national platform to preach
(11:47):
but he came up.
My father was licensed atConvent Avenue Baptist Church in
Harlem, new York, and he servedunder the late Dr Walter
Harding at St Luke BaptistChurch in Harlem.
Dr Walter Harding at St LukeBaptist Church in Harlem, so he
was around Dr Sandy Ray Gardner,taylor, bj Burson, proctor,
(12:09):
those guys all the time.
Ivory Moore, who used to be thedevotional leader for the
pastors and ministers divisionin the National Baptist Congress
and Convention.
So by him, being an understudyand protege of those men, you
know, he began to interact withthose men.
(12:29):
So by him.
And then he later moved backsouth to Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
This is during your childhood or before he married
your mom.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
This is before I was born.
Okay, so when he moves back toMississippi he begins pastoring
churches.
I think he pastored at one timefive different churches at one
time.
So this new thing about youknow one church, 20 locations
all this is nothing new, it'sjust a new era.
Nevertheless, by him havingestablished relationships with
(13:01):
pastors around the nation, thosepastors called me to preach for
them If it was on a Sunday orif it was in a revival.
Now I'm still learning how topreach right.
So I remember one time mycollege pastor, dr Matthews we
was at his church Shady Grove, Iwould guess would seat about
400, 500 people right During thedistrict association he was on
(13:25):
the preach.
So I'm sitting next to him inthe pulpit.
So they're singing AmazingGrace, they get to Through Many
Dangers, talls and Snares.
He reaches over and taps me onthe knee and says Okay, boy, get
ready to preach.
It scared me to death and I gotup and, you know, did what I
did and you know, did what I did.
And you know the old man youhad a way of getting up
(13:46):
preaching behind you makingremarks.
You know to set it right, youknow to get his house back.
So, but that's the kind ofenvironment I grew up in as a
young preacher because of hisrelationship with other pastors.
You know I was doing revival.
I guess my earliest years fiverevivals, maybe 10 revivals a
(14:07):
year and I guess, coming into myown, I started pastoring one
year later, one year after beingcalled to preach, one year
after I surrendered my call.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Before we go there, because I want to pick up right
there.
How would you define yourpreaching at this point?
Topical, Is it just kind ofdoing what your dad did?
How are you crafting sermons?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Most of my sermons are expository.
Every once in a while I'll doan inductive sermonic expression
and you know the difference ininductive and deductive Because
I like the way inductivepreaching unfolds, in the likes
of a Gardner Taylor or a SamuelProctor or a Otis Moss Jr.
(15:00):
I like its effectiveness, if Icould get away with saying
challenge.
The challenge is mostcongregants now are used to
hearing expository preachingmovements in a text, what some
traditionally call point one,point two, what some
(15:20):
traditionally call point one,point two but I don't like to
use the word point but mattersof emphasis throughout a
sermonic discourse.
But most of my preaching isexpository preaching and
occasionally I would drop somenarration in the discourse.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Are you thinking through that formally as a term
back then, or is it justsomething you're doing naturally
, like when?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
does the term expository preaching enter into
your lexicon?
Probably during my timesattending the Congress,
listening to guys like A LouisPatterson Sr, and I began
hearing guys like RA Williams,robert A Williams, emphasize the
(16:13):
word expository Right.
And then expository preachingconferences began to surface
late 1980s, early 90s perhaps.
So that nuance, or genre, ifyou will, of sermon delivery
(16:35):
from my vantage point seems tohelp people hold on to the
message better?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, I ask that question because I feel like
black preaching has always beenexpository.
It's never just been formalizedin that way.
When I think about my earlyyears of even hearing you, I
wouldn't have been able to say Ijust listened to an expository
sermon, but it was an expositorysermon and didn't know it and
didn't know.
Even if you say your dad's anarrative preacher, but the way
(17:01):
you explain it, that's narrativeexpository preaching, it's
exposing the text.
What does expository mean?
So I think a lot of times weforget that about black
preaching because the labelwasn't on there.
And now we've become morelearned and more educated.
As you said, more conferencesout there with the tag on it
(17:23):
sort of delineate from that, butthat's always sort of been our
tradition.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yes, and I think a lot of our preaching is mirrored
At least my earliest days,incubation years.
I call them watching the olderpreachers.
I call them watching the olderpreachers.
We just mimic that because wefelt as though that was the way
it was to have been done.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, and when I read about slave preaching, slave
preaching was hearing a Biblestory, coming together
afterwards and retelling thatBible story, but applying it to
the plight of slavery.
Yeah, and so that's expository.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
You take the practical side of preaching
since the days of John Jasper.
How powerful is preaching whenyou, as a slave preacher, can
convert your slave master?
That's powerful, that'spowerful preaching.
That's John Jasper Withoutdefinition or clarification or
classification of what type ofsermon he preached.
(18:23):
But when you preach with brokenEnglish, so to speak, the son
do move, but your master knowsthat is broken English.
But something mysterious aboutthe communication causes him to
rethink his life.
You're a hell of a preacher.
Yes, sir, pharaoh was moved byGod to let the people go a
preacher.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, sir, pharaoh was moved by God to let the people
go it wasn't a Moses sermon.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Plague on top of plague.
They're doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
The verbiage presentation.
Richard Allen is another onewho doesn't do it himself.
But crafted in such a way.
I'm a tremendous friend ofRichard Allen Pastoring.
One year after preaching,you're pastoring.
How in the world did thathappen?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I was in a revival meeting at.
I think the name of the churchwas Mount Zion, meridian,
mississippi the late.
I'm trying to remember thepastor's name, but at the time
(19:34):
my first church, little HopeBaptist Church, toomsuba,
mississippi, toomsuba, 10 milesit's a native Indian name 10
miles east of Meridian, one milewest of the Alabama state line
on the I-20 corridor Dr Jerry THall, jt Hall, that was his name
(19:54):
, so I was in revival for him atthat time.
Revivals were five nights, yes,sir, and the chair of deacons
from that church came to churchand asked if I would come and
preach at Little Hope and I didin a borrowed car 100 miles one
(20:22):
way from home, and the rest ishistory.
After, I think maybe the secondtime they called me as their
pastor.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Second Sunday.
So you preached one Sunday,then you preached the next
Sunday, then they called you aspastor.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It was like two Sundays later, Because those
churches at that time thatchurch was called a part-time
church they didn't convene everySunday, except for Sunday
school.
So it was second, fourth Sunday, first, third Sunday church.
So this church was first Sunday, third Sunday.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
So did they vote you in, they voted me in.
Did you have to turn in aresume?
Speaker 3 (20:59):
No, no, just the guy that preached two weeks ago.
I don't remember an interview,I don't even remember.
I don't recall meeting with thecongregation, with the
exception of going to preach asa prospect.
They called me and, under theadvice of my father and my
(21:20):
college pastor, dr Matthews, drPorter, go sit and talk with the
people now.
And they had to teach me aboutgetting a budget together and a
counterproposal for a pass rulepackage, et cetera, and when I
presented that to them theyvoted it up and I stayed there
for five years until I leftthere and went to Detroit.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
How was those five years?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Warm Rural church.
I stayed there for five yearsuntil I left there and went to
Detroit.
How was those five years?
Warm rural church, ruralcontext, warm, receptive,
spiritual, loving people whohelp make me what I am to this
day, and I still communicatewith those people.
Church still exists.
Church still exists, churchstill exists.
(22:04):
Wow, I still communicate withthose people to this day.
Wow, yeah, because it was theirhomes that I stayed in, because
I would stay overnight on aSaturday night and go to church
the next day because it was sofar away from from my home.
Um, and after my first year, mycollege pastor co-signed, uh,
(22:29):
to help me get a car.
And I own my first car.
I think it was like 30, 3,600,$3,800, something like that, the
whole pay for that car.
And man, I struggled to come upwith that.
I think it was like a hundredand some change to pay the car
note.
But at any rate, I stayed intheir homes overnight on
(22:54):
Saturday nights and, afterchurch on some Sundays, go to
their homes and eat.
They packed me up enough foodto last me, you know, two or
three days into the week becausethey knew I was in school.
It was a warm, loving people.
I can't say that I had any.
You know you have some peoplewho disagree with you, know your
(23:16):
moves or leadership decisions,but we didn't have any fussing
and falling out.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Wow, oh yeah.
When did you get married?
Is it during your pastoratethere?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
I got married in 83, which was two years into my
pastorate there.
Yes, yes.
So that was a unique experience, as I was single, you know, and
(23:52):
I guess some might have felt asthough I was a prospect for
some of their daughters or whathave you.
But when I did get married someof that atmosphere changed
Really.
Yes, but for the most part theyreceived her as well, and at
(24:12):
that time we had one son, ouroldest son, now Cecil and my
wife worked and then mostSundays she had to work at a
drugstore and that's how it wasuntil we moved from Meridian
Mississippi to Detroit.
(24:33):
She went into the medical field, became a doctor's assistant,
was lettered for it, buteventually decided to come out
of the workforce because we hadchildren to raise and didn't
want the TV or babysitter toraise our children.
But to your question, two yearsinto pastoring I got married
(24:58):
and the church grew and I'd sayfor a country church, we did
well.
Or a church for a countrychurch, we did well.
Or a church in a rural context,we did well.
And then later was called toDetroit.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
How did the Call of Galilee take place?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Oh, a unique show of providence.
I was in attendance to the EastMississippi Baptist State
Convention at Owens ChapelBaptist Church, columbia,
mississippi, pastored by noneother than the Reverend Richard
Sylvester Porter, that samepastor to civil rights, you know
(25:35):
, influence in East Mississippi,um, and during the week of the
East Mississippi StateConvention there is what is
called Jay's Jackson Night, anight that is that honors the
late Dr Joseph Harrison Jackson,who was president of the
National Baptist Convention atthat time and in his honor of
(25:59):
being a native of Mississippi,they would have a Jay Jackson
night and invite the NationalConvention president to preach
on that night.
So at that time Dr Jameson, whohad become president, I think
in 1984, was the guest preacherand for whatever reason, he
(26:25):
couldn't come.
So he was going to send VicePresident Henry Lyons and while
on the way Dr Lyons, forwhatever reason, couldn't come,
he had to go back to Florida.
So the leader for the Women'sAuxiliary, ms Alma Barnes, who
used to live in LaurelMississippi, recommended Dr TC
(26:49):
Simmons, theodore CorneliusSimmons, who pastored Messiah
Baptist Church in Detroit, whoat that time had the largest
Christian education week in theUnited States.
At that time he would invitethe likes of Franklin Richardson
Amos Jones, and the list goeson and on and on.
(27:11):
At any rate by him, dr Simmonsbeing used to pastor her pastor
in Laurel Mississippi, she saidI recommend Dr Simmons come.
So he considered to come right.
So he flew from Detroit toJackson and however he got to
Columbia, you know, he got thereto that church and the noonday
(27:34):
service I was in the back of thechurch the preacher who was
scheduled to preach didn't show.
The preacher who was scheduledto preach didn't show, and Dr
Porter, who knew my dad didn'tknow me as well with the
exception of my church cominginto the East Mississippi State
Convention, sent a message backto me saying Little Chapman, you
(27:57):
got to preach today.
I want you to preach today.
The noonday preacher didn'tshow.
Okay, so now I get a chance oran opportunity to preach in the
state convention.
Now that was big, you know.
So, um, after I preached, drSimmons was there.
He came in, like you know, alittle while before the sermon.
When I finished we went back toDr Porter's office because he
(28:21):
was to preach that night.
We got acquainted.
He's a young man and I had togo to class the next day from
Columbia back to Jackson.
He had to get from there toJackson, catch a plane to go
back home after he preached thatnight.
So he said, if you don't mindif I catch a ride with you back
(28:41):
to Jackson tonight?
I said, sure, doc, I'd behonored to take you back.
And on the way from Columbia toJackson he invited me to do his
revival in Detroit.
So I started on a Sunday, endedon a Friday.
The second year I went back.
(29:02):
Between the first and thesecond revival my predecessor
passed away.
He knew the widow and calledher and invited her.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I got a young preacher, I want you to hear it.
Predecessor Galilee passed away.
Galilee, he got you.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yes, my predecessor.
She came, she went back.
She called the chairman ofdeacons.
He came, he went back.
He called the deacons.
Third night they all came.
Fourth night the pulpitcommittee came, invited me to
meet with them.
Fifth night we meet in DrSimmons's office with the pulpit
committee.
They invite me to come toGalilee.
(29:38):
Come to Galilee after I don'tknow how many times.
I think the second time I went.
They called me to be theirpastor.
I was in the woods hunting thatnight and it was a snowy night
in Detroit.
I mean very, very.
You know about Detroit winters.
Yes, sir, it was a snowstorm.
But those people came out in asnowstorm and voted me in as
(30:01):
their pastor.
And I recall one of the deaconswho was running the committee,
heading up the committee, calledme as I came into the house.
We was in an apartment at thattime.
My wife said you got a callfrom that deacon up there in
Detroit.
She didn't know his name and Icalled him back.
He said in a very light voicewe want to welcome you as our
(30:23):
pastor and the rest is history.
Now my opening statement was toshow you blatant providence in
this predicament.
Dr Simmons was not scheduled topreach.
I was not scheduled to preach,but that's just how God worked
it out, so that he would bethere and I would be there in
(30:44):
the same space, at the same timeinvited to Detroit and later
invited to Galilee, and now I'mabout to celebrate my 40th year
in 2025.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
That decision?
It was a no brainer.
Was it because you've beenliving in Mississippi your
entire life?
What did you know about?
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Detroit.
What about your wife?
I did not want to leave home.
I was doing good, I had twogood country churches, we were
doing all right, I was around myfamily, so you started passing
to the second church yes, I wascalled to Mount Pisgah Baptist
Church in Jenkins, alabama, 1984.
(31:26):
Preached there on a Sunday, thechair of deacons asked everybody
to stay.
He said ladies and gentlemen,we don't need to look no further
.
Us got our pass.
And he said us.
He said us got our pass righthere.
And he said y'all want to voteright now?
And everybody said yeah andthey voted unanimously.
(31:46):
How many years were you passing?
I was passing Little Hope since81.
And I started passing thatchurch, Mount Pisgah.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Three years later.
Yes, so there'll be first andthird and second and fourth.
That's correct.
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That's correct, and I mean just a bunch of loving
people, and I still communicatewith them to this day.
Wow, so, yes, this summonsingto pastor.
When I had to make the decisionto go to Detroit, I recall my
(32:26):
father had just finished doing arevival for me at the second
church.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
And.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I drove him from Alabama, where my church was,
back to the Mississippi GulfCoast and we had this long
conversation.
He said I'll tell you what youdo, son.
He said you call those twochurches together if they would
in a meeting and you tell themwhat those people up there are
(32:56):
offering you meaning Detroit upthere.
And he said if those peoplematch it, it ain't about money.
He said the Lord might becalling you away from here and I
called that meeting.
That night, church packed.
Both churches came together andI told them what was going on.
(33:17):
I had informed them earlierthat I had been called to church
in Detroit and I needed theirprayers.
But shortly after that revivalwas the time to call that church
meeting.
And when I did that I told themand the chair of deacons
Whitehead Dunagan he was one ofthe ones in whose home I would
(33:41):
stay in overnight on a Saturdaynight to go to church, to
prepare to go to church on thenext day.
So I remember him sitting inthe back of the church, left
side, facing the front door.
He says he stood up and saidPastor, whatever they're
offering you, he said no, nevermind, whatever they're offering
(34:04):
you.
He said no, nevermind, um,whatever they're offering you,
we'll double it.
And I knew right then that theLord was calling me away.
And when I called my fatherabout it, he said now, all right
, take all the money off thetable.
He said if they offered you amillion dollars, take that off
of the table.
Is God telling you yourassignment?
(34:27):
There is done and the rest ishistory.
And I just man.
And the day I had to leave thosechurches was a funeral and I
would hate to see you have toleave a church because you back
your car in on that day and youtake about four or five
handkerchiefs because you won'tfinish the sermon.
(34:49):
That's just how, how close wehad gotten and it just broke my
heart to have to leave them andI don't.
I never finished the sermon,neither one of them.
Yeah, it was.
It was too emotional, and butyou know, I still have the
relationship and, thank God, westill keep up with each other.
But that's how Providence didthis and that was one of the
(35:12):
means by which my wise counselhelped me to make the decision
to leave where I didn't want toleave, to go to where I am now,
how did your wife feel about allthat?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
And it was just Cecil at that point.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Cecil was about three years old.
He was a baby then.
Well, yeah, three years old,she handled it well.
And I recall asking Dr Simmons,in fact, about how should I
handle my wife, deal with mywife, in that she's got to leave
(35:47):
her family too.
She's leaving a job.
And I remember his wordsvividly, standing at his door at
his home, he said and the oldcasual, oh, son.
He said, lord, going to takecare of that.
Lord will speak to her justlike he's speaking to you, just
like it wasn't anything to it.
He said Lord, going to speak,take care of that.
Lord will speak to her justlike he's speaking to you.
It's just like it wasn'tanything to it.
He said, lord, lord, speak toher just like he's going to
(36:09):
speak to you.
And when I sat down with her,she said if that's what the Lord
is telling you to go, thenthat's where we're going.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So to back up for a second hey, is any of your other
siblings in?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
ministry Preaching, ministry no two are deacons
Gotcha, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And then you talked about your dad being a narrative
preacher, but he will infusehimself into the story.
Can you explain a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
called Three Minds at the Red Sea and his emphasis
was it was a mind of the people,mind of Moses, mind of God.
(01:13):
The mind of the people was togo back to Egypt.
The mind of Moses wasindecision, because he knew he
couldn't go back.
He's a fugitive, he's broughtall of the labor force out of
Egypt and he can't go forwardbecause the waves are lapping at
his feet.
(01:34):
So he's got a mind to just pray.
People have a mind to go backand only God's mind can prevail.
So he's Moses in the story.
He's saying guys, we can't goback.
And he gives these reasons whyy'all can't go back there.
And he says I can't be Godbecause I'm not God.
(01:58):
So I'm going to just stand hereand see what God is going to do
, and only God's mind canprevail.
So now the people are askinghim so what are is going to do?
And only God's mind can prevail.
So now the people are askinghim so what are we going to do?
He says well, I just got amessage from God.
He says we go forward.
So the people say to him nowhe's.
(02:19):
This is him narrating his ownstory.
He's Moses.
He said the people are sayingwe can't go back there and we
can't go forward.
He says hold on, I'm gettinganother message.
God says we handle the land,he'll handle the sea.
(02:43):
And he says now, he just toldme to stretch out this rod that
I have and he's going to show ussomething we've never seen
before.
And he goes all into this.
God shows us stuff we've neverseen before.
He said have y'all ever seenwaters divide?
He said I'm not talking aboutwhen you get in the tub.
(03:03):
He said I'm not talking aboutwhen you get in the tub.
He said I'm not talking aboutwhen you get in the pool, but
I'm talking about I see it.
And he says I'm going to seewhat's to this.
He's Moses right.
So he stretches out his rod andhe says hmm, he did it again.
Yeah, so God did it again.
(03:25):
So that's the kind of preacherhe was.
So on a weekly he would sort ofcreate, oh man you sit there and
scratch your head Wow, where isthis guy getting this stuff
from?
He came and did my anniversaryonce in Detroit, my pastoral
anniversary, and he preached thestory of Elijah defeating Ahab
(03:49):
and Jezebel on Mount Carmel,right.
So after God rains down firefrom heaven, well, he says it
this way after God made fire,drink water on heaven, he says.
He tells his servant go lookout over the sea and tell me
(04:11):
what you see.
And on that last trip theservant comes back and says I
think I see something and I seea cloud about the size of a
man's hand.
But now he goes into theservants.
Now some theologians or someseminary instructions would
(04:31):
contend that this is eisegeting.
But in the black preachingculture it's called imagination,
imagination and poeticexpression.
And that's the level he was onand poetic expression and that's
the level he was on.
So, without running the risk ofisogeeting, he says now I sent
you back six times.
You came here with a zeroreport.
(04:53):
He said on that seventh timeyou come back and said you see a
cloud about the size of a man'shand.
I said now, what do you thinkabout that?
He's in the server until he'sElijah, right?
So what do you think about that?
He's in the servitude.
He's Elijah, right.
So what do you think about that?
He said it ain't much.
He said it wasn't much when theLord started the world.
He said it wasn't much.
He just said let there be, andhere comes sun and stars and
(05:19):
moon and grass and people andanimals.
He said as a little boy who hada little lunch, he grass and
people and animals.
He said there was a little boywho had a little lunch.
He said that didn't look likemuch either.
And man, he just went on.
He just eat you alive with that.
So he says you said you saw acloud by the size of a man's
hand.
(05:39):
He said yes, sir.
He said well, son, a cloud is acloud.
He said if it's a cloud, it'sgot some water in it.
He said so now you tell Ahab toget down because it's about to
come a downpour here, and so onthe way down, ahab is in his
chariot, everybody's on the move, right?
(06:01):
Elijah is running.
And the text says Elijah runsby the chariot.
Oh, yeah, he runs.
So they said where are yougoing, elijah?
He said I'm running betweenraindrops, man.
And that was it.
The church went, it was over.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So was he a closer as well.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Oh, my God, man, if you've heard, there's what we
call a giggle in the blackpreaching tradition.
You hear Bernard Mitchell to acertain degree.
Now, mitchell and I came upunder the same tutelage, my dad
and Fred Chapman, who was acousin to my father.
(06:45):
He was that kind of closer andonce he has just delineated,
articulated his discourse, he'dgo into that black preacher
Afrikanic, you know rhythmiccadence and he would just shut
(07:06):
it down, so to speak, and find aperson in their seat.
If you could, lord, have mercy,yeah.
That's the kind of preachinginfluence that I had on my life.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah.
And so the years before youaccept your calling, you had, I
guess, certain moments where thepassion would hit you at
different times.
You're right At 19,.
You just couldn't.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You're right and I'm glad you mentioned that, because
at some times I was askingwhat's wrong with me Now.
I never liked using profanity,not that I didn't use it, but it
just wasn't me.
I never liked the taste of beer, which meant I tasted it.
(07:54):
As a kid I had a childhoodfriend.
His mother, grandmother,great-grandmother, was my
mother's hairstylist and sheowned several businesses,
apartments, hair salon and shewould sell soda pop and beer and
(08:14):
stuff like that.
So he would slip and get a canof beer right and try to drink.
So I took a sip of beer At thattime.
I think it was Slitz it mighthave been before your time yeah,
slitz, small liquor beer and Iand I was man, this is a nasty
stuff and I I spit it out andand later tried what they call
(08:35):
coolers you used to call themwine coolers and, for whatever
reason, made my stomach ache.
So I drunk one.
Well, maybe it was just food Iate.
So I tried another one atanother time.
Same thing.
Okay, I won't be doing thisanymore, right?
So I just didn't acquire ataste for alcohol.
(08:58):
I recall once after trackpractice I ran track.
Some of the teammates got undera viaduct away from traffic and
one of the guys pulled out amarijuana so they lit it and
they started smoking marijuana.
Chachi wanted this and I wasalways crazy about my body.
You know, I was an athlete.
(09:18):
I wanted to go and play collegeball, you know, make a lot of
money, right.
So I was always afraid of whatdrugs and alcohol would do to my
body.
So I didn't do it, not that Iwas holy, it was just my
consciousness.
Now the greater consciousnesswas if my father found out about
it.
He ran the police department,the sheriff department, you know
(09:41):
, the city council.
Everybody was afraid of himbecause of the kind of power he
had.
But he was also a strictdisciplinarian, not that he was
abusive, so I was more afraid ofhim than I was the police.
So I shied away from thosekinds of kind of, I guess, vices
.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, that's interesting.
You had this feeling likewhat's wrong with me?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, and I later came to know that it was God in
my life, every path that I wason that could have been in the
wrong direction.
It was always.
I did my spiritualautobiography and you know, when
you do your spiritualautobiography, you write about
every person, everything thathappened to you in your life,
(10:30):
good and bad.
And while reflecting andwriting, you know it turns out
that there was always somebodyto redirect me in a different
direction, a different direction.
Some incident happened thatcaused me to think otherwise or
(10:55):
do otherwise.
No-transcript, I would say,this road to understanding what
my calling to preach was about.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Mercy.
Yeah, so once you startpreaching, are you preaching
regularly or you're more just astudent and coming home and
preaching?
What is the migration of?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I immediately became an itinerant preacher.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Right away.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Because of my father's relationships with
other pastors.
I recall at one NationalBaptist Congress, I believe, in
Pittsburgh, and my father wasquite popular around the nation.
He never got his opportunity onthe national platform to preach
(11:47):
but he came up.
My father was licensed atConvent Avenue Baptist Church in
Harlem, new York, and he servedunder the late Dr Walter
Harding at St Luke BaptistChurch in Harlem.
Dr Walter Harding at St LukeBaptist Church in Harlem, so he
was around Dr Sandy Ray Gardner,taylor, bj Burson, proctor,
(12:09):
those guys all the time.
Ivory Moore, who used to be thedevotional leader for the
pastors and ministers divisionin the National Baptist Congress
and Convention.
So by him, being an understudyand protege of those men, you
know, he began to interact withthose men.
(12:29):
So by him.
And then he later moved backsouth to Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
This is during your childhood or before he married
your mom.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
This is before I was born.
Okay, so when he moves back toMississippi he begins pastoring
churches.
I think he pastored at one timefive different churches at one
time.
So this new thing about youknow one church, 20 locations
all this is nothing new, it'sjust a new era.
Nevertheless, by him havingestablished relationships with
(13:01):
pastors around the nation, thosepastors called me to preach for
them If it was on a Sunday orif it was in a revival.
Now I'm still learning how topreach right.
So I remember one time mycollege pastor, dr Matthews we
was at his church Shady Grove, Iwould guess would seat about
400, 500 people right During thedistrict association he was on
(13:25):
the preach.
So I'm sitting next to him inthe pulpit.
So they're singing AmazingGrace, they get to Through Many
Dangers, talls and Snares.
He reaches over and taps me onthe knee and says Okay, boy, get
ready to preach.
It scared me to death and I gotup and, you know, did what I
did and you know, did what I did.
And you know the old man youhad a way of getting up
(13:46):
preaching behind you makingremarks.
You know to set it right, youknow to get his house back.
So, but that's the kind ofenvironment I grew up in as a
young preacher because of hisrelationship with other pastors.
You know I was doing revival.
I guess my earliest years fiverevivals, maybe 10 revivals a
(14:07):
year and I guess, coming into myown, I started pastoring one
year later, one year after beingcalled to preach, one year
after I surrendered my call.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Before we go there, because I want to pick up right
there.
How would you define yourpreaching at this point?
Topical, Is it just kind ofdoing what your dad did?
How are you crafting sermons?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Most of my sermons are expository.
Every once in a while I'll doan inductive sermonic expression
and you know the difference ininductive and deductive Because
I like the way inductivepreaching unfolds, in the likes
of a Gardner Taylor or a SamuelProctor or a Otis Moss Jr.
(15:00):
I like its effectiveness, if Icould get away with saying
challenge.
The challenge is mostcongregants now are used to
hearing expository preachingmovements in a text, what some
traditionally call point one,point two, what some
(15:20):
traditionally call point one,point two but I don't like to
use the word point but mattersof emphasis throughout a
sermonic discourse.
But most of my preaching isexpository preaching and
occasionally I would drop somenarration in the discourse.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Are you thinking through that formally as a term
back then, or is it justsomething you're doing naturally
, like when?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
does the term expository preaching enter into
your lexicon?
Probably during my timesattending the Congress,
listening to guys like A LouisPatterson Sr, and I began
hearing guys like RA Williams,robert A Williams, emphasize the
(16:13):
word expository Right.
And then expository preachingconferences began to surface
late 1980s, early 90s perhaps.
So that nuance, or genre, ifyou will, of sermon delivery
(16:35):
from my vantage point seems tohelp people hold on to the
message better?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, I ask that question because I feel like
black preaching has always beenexpository.
It's never just been formalizedin that way.
When I think about my earlyyears of even hearing you, I
wouldn't have been able to say Ijust listened to an expository
sermon, but it was an expositorysermon and didn't know it and
didn't know.
Even if you say your dad's anarrative preacher, but the way
(17:01):
you explain it, that's narrativeexpository preaching, it's
exposing the text.
What does expository mean?
So I think a lot of times weforget that about black
preaching because the labelwasn't on there.
And now we've become morelearned and more educated.
As you said, more conferencesout there with the tag on it
(17:23):
sort of delineate from that, butthat's always sort of been our
tradition.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yes, and I think a lot of our preaching is mirrored
At least my earliest days,incubation years.
I call them watching the olderpreachers.
I call them watching the olderpreachers.
We just mimic that because wefelt as though that was the way
it was to have been done.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, and when I read about slave preaching, slave
preaching was hearing a Biblestory, coming together
afterwards and retelling thatBible story, but applying it to
the plight of slavery.
Yeah, and so that's expository.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
You take the practical side of preaching
since the days of John Jasper.
How powerful is preaching whenyou, as a slave preacher, can
convert your slave master?
That's powerful, that'spowerful preaching.
That's John Jasper Withoutdefinition or clarification or
classification of what type ofsermon he preached.
(18:23):
But when you preach with brokenEnglish, so to speak, the son
do move, but your master knowsthat is broken English.
But something mysterious aboutthe communication causes him to
rethink his life.
You're a hell of a preacher.
Yes, sir, pharaoh was moved byGod to let the people go a
preacher.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, sir, pharaoh was moved by God to let the people
go it wasn't a Moses sermon.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Plague on top of plague.
They're doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
The verbiage presentation.
Richard Allen is another onewho doesn't do it himself.
But crafted in such a way.
I'm a tremendous friend ofRichard Allen Pastoring.
One year after preaching,you're pastoring.
How in the world did thathappen?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I was in a revival meeting at.
I think the name of the churchwas Mount Zion, meridian,
mississippi the late.
I'm trying to remember thepastor's name, but at the time
(19:34):
my first church, little HopeBaptist Church, toomsuba,
mississippi, toomsuba, 10 milesit's a native Indian name 10
miles east of Meridian, one milewest of the Alabama state line
on the I-20 corridor Dr Jerry THall, jt Hall, that was his name
(19:54):
, so I was in revival for him atthat time.
Revivals were five nights, yes,sir, and the chair of deacons
from that church came to churchand asked if I would come and
preach at Little Hope and I didin a borrowed car 100 miles one
(20:22):
way from home, and the rest ishistory.
After, I think maybe the secondtime they called me as their
pastor.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Second Sunday.
So you preached one Sunday,then you preached the next
Sunday, then they called you aspastor.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It was like two Sundays later, Because those
churches at that time thatchurch was called a part-time
church they didn't convene everySunday, except for Sunday
school.
So it was second, fourth Sunday, first, third Sunday church.
So this church was first Sunday, third Sunday.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
So did they vote you in, they voted me in.
Did you have to turn in aresume?
Speaker 3 (20:59):
No, no, just the guy that preached two weeks ago.
I don't remember an interview,I don't even remember.
I don't recall meeting with thecongregation, with the
exception of going to preach asa prospect.
They called me and, under theadvice of my father and my
(21:20):
college pastor, dr Matthews, drPorter, go sit and talk with the
people now.
And they had to teach me aboutgetting a budget together and a
counterproposal for a pass rulepackage, et cetera, and when I
presented that to them theyvoted it up and I stayed there
for five years until I leftthere and went to Detroit.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
How was those five years?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Warm Rural church.
I stayed there for five yearsuntil I left there and went to
Detroit.
How was those five years?
Warm rural church, ruralcontext, warm, receptive,
spiritual, loving people whohelp make me what I am to this
day, and I still communicatewith those people.
Church still exists.
Church still exists, churchstill exists.
(22:04):
Wow, I still communicate withthose people to this day.
Wow, yeah, because it was theirhomes that I stayed in, because
I would stay overnight on aSaturday night and go to church
the next day because it was sofar away from from my home.
Um, and after my first year, mycollege pastor co-signed, uh,
(22:29):
to help me get a car.
And I own my first car.
I think it was like 30, 3,600,$3,800, something like that, the
whole pay for that car.
And man, I struggled to come upwith that.
I think it was like a hundredand some change to pay the car
note.
But at any rate, I stayed intheir homes overnight on
(22:54):
Saturday nights and, afterchurch on some Sundays, go to
their homes and eat.
They packed me up enough foodto last me, you know, two or
three days into the week becausethey knew I was in school.
It was a warm, loving people.
I can't say that I had any.
You know you have some peoplewho disagree with you, know your
(23:16):
moves or leadership decisions,but we didn't have any fussing
and falling out.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Wow, oh yeah.
When did you get married?
Is it during your pastoratethere?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
I got married in 83, which was two years into my
pastorate there.
Yes, yes.
So that was a unique experience, as I was single, you know, and
(23:52):
I guess some might have felt asthough I was a prospect for
some of their daughters or whathave you.
But when I did get married someof that atmosphere changed
Really.
Yes, but for the most part theyreceived her as well, and at
(24:12):
that time we had one son, ouroldest son, now Cecil and my
wife worked and then mostSundays she had to work at a
drugstore and that's how it wasuntil we moved from Meridian
Mississippi to Detroit.
(24:33):
She went into the medical field, became a doctor's assistant,
was lettered for it, buteventually decided to come out
of the workforce because we hadchildren to raise and didn't
want the TV or babysitter toraise our children.
But to your question, two yearsinto pastoring I got married
(24:58):
and the church grew and I'd sayfor a country church, we did
well.
Or a church for a countrychurch, we did well.
Or a church in a rural context,we did well.
And then later was called toDetroit.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
How did the Call of Galilee take place?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Oh, a unique show of providence.
I was in attendance to the EastMississippi Baptist State
Convention at Owens ChapelBaptist Church, columbia,
mississippi, pastored by noneother than the Reverend Richard
Sylvester Porter, that samepastor to civil rights, you know
(25:35):
, influence in East Mississippi,um, and during the week of the
East Mississippi StateConvention there is what is
called Jay's Jackson Night, anight that is that honors the
late Dr Joseph Harrison Jackson,who was president of the
National Baptist Convention atthat time and in his honor of
(25:59):
being a native of Mississippi,they would have a Jay Jackson
night and invite the NationalConvention president to preach
on that night.
So at that time Dr Jameson, whohad become president, I think
in 1984, was the guest preacherand for whatever reason, he
(26:25):
couldn't come.
So he was going to send VicePresident Henry Lyons and while
on the way Dr Lyons, forwhatever reason, couldn't come,
he had to go back to Florida.
So the leader for the Women'sAuxiliary, ms Alma Barnes, who
used to live in LaurelMississippi, recommended Dr TC
(26:49):
Simmons, theodore CorneliusSimmons, who pastored Messiah
Baptist Church in Detroit, whoat that time had the largest
Christian education week in theUnited States.
At that time he would invitethe likes of Franklin Richardson
Amos Jones, and the list goeson and on and on.
(27:11):
At any rate by him, dr Simmonsbeing used to pastor her pastor
in Laurel Mississippi, she saidI recommend Dr Simmons come.
So he considered to come right.
So he flew from Detroit toJackson and however he got to
Columbia, you know, he got thereto that church and the noonday
(27:34):
service I was in the back of thechurch the preacher who was
scheduled to preach didn't show.
The preacher who was scheduledto preach didn't show, and Dr
Porter, who knew my dad didn'tknow me as well with the
exception of my church cominginto the East Mississippi State
Convention, sent a message backto me saying Little Chapman, you
(27:57):
got to preach today.
I want you to preach today.
The noonday preacher didn'tshow.
Okay, so now I get a chance oran opportunity to preach in the
state convention.
Now that was big, you know.
So, um, after I preached, drSimmons was there.
He came in, like you know, alittle while before the sermon.
When I finished we went back toDr Porter's office because he
(28:21):
was to preach that night.
We got acquainted.
He's a young man and I had togo to class the next day from
Columbia back to Jackson.
He had to get from there toJackson, catch a plane to go
back home after he preached thatnight.
So he said, if you don't mindif I catch a ride with you back
(28:41):
to Jackson tonight?
I said, sure, doc, I'd behonored to take you back.
And on the way from Columbia toJackson he invited me to do his
revival in Detroit.
So I started on a Sunday, endedon a Friday.
The second year I went back.
(29:02):
Between the first and thesecond revival my predecessor
passed away.
He knew the widow and calledher and invited her.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I got a young preacher, I want you to hear it.
Predecessor Galilee passed away.
Galilee, he got you.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yes, my predecessor.
She came, she went back.
She called the chairman ofdeacons.
He came, he went back.
He called the deacons.
Third night they all came.
Fourth night the pulpitcommittee came, invited me to
meet with them.
Fifth night we meet in DrSimmons's office with the pulpit
committee.
They invite me to come toGalilee.
(29:38):
Come to Galilee after I don'tknow how many times.
I think the second time I went.
They called me to be theirpastor.
I was in the woods hunting thatnight and it was a snowy night
in Detroit.
I mean very, very.
You know about Detroit winters.
Yes, sir, it was a snowstorm.
But those people came out in asnowstorm and voted me in as
(30:01):
their pastor.
And I recall one of the deaconswho was running the committee,
heading up the committee, calledme as I came into the house.
We was in an apartment at thattime.
My wife said you got a callfrom that deacon up there in
Detroit.
She didn't know his name and Icalled him back.
He said in a very light voicewe want to welcome you as our
(30:23):
pastor and the rest is history.
Now my opening statement was toshow you blatant providence in
this predicament.
Dr Simmons was not scheduled topreach.
I was not scheduled to preach,but that's just how God worked
it out, so that he would bethere and I would be there in
(30:44):
the same space, at the same timeinvited to Detroit and later
invited to Galilee, and now I'mabout to celebrate my 40th year
in 2025.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
That decision?
It was a no brainer.
Was it because you've beenliving in Mississippi your
entire life?
What did you know about?
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Detroit.
What about your wife?
I did not want to leave home.
I was doing good, I had twogood country churches, we were
doing all right, I was around myfamily, so you started passing
to the second church yes, I wascalled to Mount Pisgah Baptist
Church in Jenkins, alabama, 1984.
(31:26):
Preached there on a Sunday, thechair of deacons asked everybody
to stay.
He said ladies and gentlemen,we don't need to look no further
.
Us got our pass.
And he said us.
He said us got our pass righthere.
And he said y'all want to voteright now?
And everybody said yeah andthey voted unanimously.
(31:46):
How many years were you passing?
I was passing Little Hope since81.
And I started passing thatchurch, Mount Pisgah.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Three years later.
Yes, so there'll be first andthird and second and fourth.
That's correct.
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That's correct, and I mean just a bunch of loving
people, and I still communicatewith them to this day.
Wow, so, yes, this summonsingto pastor.
When I had to make the decisionto go to Detroit, I recall my
(32:26):
father had just finished doing arevival for me at the second
church.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
And.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I drove him from Alabama, where my church was,
back to the Mississippi GulfCoast and we had this long
conversation.
He said I'll tell you what youdo, son.
He said you call those twochurches together if they would
in a meeting and you tell themwhat those people up there are
(32:56):
offering you meaning Detroit upthere.
And he said if those peoplematch it, it ain't about money.
He said the Lord might becalling you away from here and I
called that meeting.
That night, church packed.
Both churches came together andI told them what was going on.
(33:17):
I had informed them earlierthat I had been called to church
in Detroit and I needed theirprayers.
But shortly after that revivalwas the time to call that church
meeting.
And when I did that I told themand the chair of deacons
Whitehead Dunagan he was one ofthe ones in whose home I would
(33:41):
stay in overnight on a Saturdaynight to go to church, to
prepare to go to church on thenext day.
So I remember him sitting inthe back of the church, left
side, facing the front door.
He says he stood up and saidPastor, whatever they're
offering you, he said no, nevermind, whatever they're offering
(34:04):
you.
He said no, nevermind, um,whatever they're offering you,
we'll double it.
And I knew right then that theLord was calling me away.
And when I called my fatherabout it, he said now, all right
, take all the money off thetable.
He said if they offered you amillion dollars, take that off
of the table.
Is God telling you yourassignment?
(34:27):
There is done and the rest ishistory.
And I just man.
And the day I had to leave thosechurches was a funeral and I
would hate to see you have toleave a church because you back
your car in on that day and youtake about four or five
handkerchiefs because you won'tfinish the sermon.
(34:49):
That's just how, how close wehad gotten and it just broke my
heart to have to leave them andI don't.
I never finished the sermon,neither one of them.
Yeah, it was.
It was too emotional, and butyou know, I still have the
relationship and, thank God, westill keep up with each other.
But that's how Providence didthis and that was one of the
(35:12):
means by which my wise counselhelped me to make the decision
to leave where I didn't want toleave, to go to where I am now,
how did your wife feel about allthat?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
And it was just Cecil at that point.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Cecil was about three years old.
He was a baby then.
Well, yeah, three years old,she handled it well.
And I recall asking Dr Simmons,in fact, about how should I
handle my wife, deal with mywife, in that she's got to leave
(35:47):
her family too.
She's leaving a job.
And I remember his wordsvividly, standing at his door at
his home, he said and the oldcasual, oh, son.
He said, lord, going to takecare of that.
Lord will speak to her justlike he's speaking to you, just
like it wasn't anything to it.
He said Lord, going to speak,take care of that.
Lord will speak to her justlike he's speaking to you.
It's just like it wasn'tanything to it.
He said, lord, lord, speak toher just like he's going to
(36:09):
speak to you.
And when I sat down with her,she said if that's what the Lord
is telling you to go, thenthat's where we're going.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
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