April 17, 2025 • 38 mins
Step into a pastor's journey from California to Detroit and discover how the shifting landscape of Black church leadership has evolved since 1985. This riveting conversation pulls back the curtain on the realities of denominational politics, revealing the sometimes painful gap between preached values and organizational practices.
When our guest arrived in Detroit during Coleman Young's mayorship, he encountered a church community transitioning from family-controlled congregations to broader leadership models. The cultural shock of moving from the emotionally expressive Southern worship style to the more intellectually-focused Northern approach forced growth and adaptation that continues to this day, as he navigates generational changes and embraces new expressions of ministry.
With remarkable candor, he shares his recent experience running for the National Baptist Convention presidency, expressing disappointment in a process he describes as manipulated and constitutionally questionable. This leads to a thoughtful exploration of how the Convention has evolved since Joseph Harrison Jackson's controversial 27-year leadership, suggesting that somewhere along the way, the powerful Black nationalist focus that once gave the organization a seat at the United Nations table was diluted.
Most fascinating is the discussion of "hooping" – that distinctive, musical sermonic style in African-American preaching tradition. "It's that indescribable something," he explains, connecting this art form to African heritage and noting how it serves as "the icing on the cake" of a well-delivered sermon. The conversation concludes with reflections on the most impactful Black preachers throughout American history, from Richard Allen to Martin Luther King Jr.
Subscribe now and join us each week for these nuanced conversations where faith, wisdom, and real-world complexities intersect. Share your thoughts on this episode and let us know which topics you'd like us to explore next!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
What did y'all know about Detroit?
Absolutely Well.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I had an uncle here or there.
Rather, I'm in California now.
My mother's oldest brotherlived there.
In fact it was his home inwhich I stayed until they got
the church's parsonage.
I don't live in a parsonage now, but until the church's house
(00:53):
was ready I stayed in his homeand my aunt's home, along with
their two daughters and son, andhis bed was my bed.
So, yeah, she handled it like achamp and Cecil was.
(01:15):
As a matter of fact, she waspregnant with our oldest
daughter, brandy, at the timeand I didn't know much about
Detroit anymore than having gonethere to do that revival Did
two of them.
They called me after the secondone and I had to come to know
what Detroit was all about.
Otherwise it was just going toa place to preach, staying doing
(01:37):
the revival.
Revival is over.
Catch a plane, go home.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
What was the context of Detroit at this point?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Detroit was transitioning out of the civil
rights, the impact of the civilrights era, the transformation
of blacks coming into politicsmore heavily than the 1960s and
1970s.
1960s and 1970s, I think atthat time Detroit had a black
(02:08):
mayor when I arrived in the city, coleman Young Of Detroit.
Yes, coleman Alexander Young.
So the political landscape waschanging.
Blacks were coming into theirown politically.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
It's 1985.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It's 1985.
Socially, geographically aswell.
So it was a emerging DetroitWell, I would say re-emerging
and a re-imagining of Detroitwhen I went there as pastor.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Did you know any other pastors there at the time?
I did not, besides Simmons, whoyou did the revival for.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I did not.
I did not know any pastors inDetroit.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
What was your first?
Some of your first earlyrelationships there.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
The pastors who received me were pastors Gabriel
Lewis, who pastored the SecondBaptist, second Royal Baptist
Church.
I remember Ferndale EverettJennings who, by the way, his
mother and my mother wereRobinsons who came from the same
(03:23):
town in Alabama DemopolisAlabama Now Demopolis is about
as big as this microphone thatI'm speaking on.
So the likelihood of twoRobinsons coming from that place
, which was so small, werecousins, and this is how I
bonded with the Jennings family.
(03:44):
Edward L Branch, who is nowretired, pastored the Third New
Hope Baptist Church and DrVellman Stotts, who became a
mentor, dr David Kelly.
Yes, Unity Baptist.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Church.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Dr David Kelly these are men who are now resting in
the pleasantries of paradiseTook me in as his own son and
under his tutelage, and as timeprogressed I began to meet other
pastors.
Preach for other pastors werethe first who embraced me as a
newcomer into the city ofDetroit and into the black
(04:27):
church community, and I'll neverforget them for how they took
me as a brother and as a son.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yes, what was Galilee like as a church and what was
that transition like, especiallyin comparison to having so many
intimate relationships in theSouthern hospitality, if you
will, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Galilee at the time was a family church, very
close-knitted, not a largecongregation at all it might
have been 300 members there onthe church's roll and very
family controlled and over time,with new disciples influxing
(05:16):
and ingressing into ourcongregation, that family group
and this is not to demean orbelittle you know those families
because, matter of fact, our83rd church anniversary was just
this past Sunday and I justcalled the roll, the names of
those individuals whose familieswere foundational in our church
, so that to remind ourcongregants now who who is at
(05:38):
the foundation of our church.
But when those families beganto wane or die out, so to speak,
the elders, the oldergeneration dying out, newcomers
began to come into our churchfamily.
The church dynamics ofleadership and worker-ship began
(06:03):
to change and more accepting ofindividuals who were not of
blood or friendship began toassume roles of leadership in
our church.
That was different Now,culturally, whereas the South
was more spirited in theirworship expression and their
(06:31):
cordial behavior.
You know you can go to anybody'shouse at any time, Culture
shock and you get to Michigan.
Different type of culture Now.
They were spiritual, trueenough, spirited, yes, but not
as Southern aura and ambiance ofworship.
(06:52):
I take it that they were moreappreciative of an intellectual
approach to church work, tochurch worship, to preaching
church liturgy, whereas theSouth, you know it was—and this
(07:12):
does not infer that they wereless appreciative of—or not
appreciative, rather of anintellectual approach to things.
But it was this emotive, moreemotive and emotively expressive
in their worship than a crowdthat would listen for substance
(07:34):
in a sermonic expression, ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Absolutely, absolutely.
How are you maturing as apreacher and a pastor at this
point?
Still growing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Man, I'm still growing, I'm still learning.
I learned from younger pastorslike yourself.
And what are you guys doing?
How are you affecting yourcongregation?
Now I am growing, I would sayintellectually, I am growing
more socially with the youngergeneration Now.
(08:09):
I grew up old school preacherconservative suit, white shirt,
black tie and the young peoplehave gotten me out of it was
like pulling hen's teeth out ofa necktie in the pulpit.
I mean that's sacrilegious man,but what am I doing?
I am demeaning my training, butno, but nevertheless, and
(08:32):
matter of fact, it'd beyouth-led worship this Sunday.
So I will be tireless andprobably in casual shoes,
because I'm growing, not thatI'm trying to be different.
I'm growing and learning thatsometimes you can allow
(08:52):
tradition to be an impedimentand concretize to a certain
custom, that it could become animpediment to your generational
connect.
And if this is what it takes toconnect, then I'm no less
preacher, I'm no less pastor,I'm no less a father figure.
(09:16):
It's just that this is a typeof aura that they can identify
with Because this Generation Z,and some of the millennials as
well, they are different intheir worship posture and they
could care less about you andyour necktie and your collar and
(09:40):
your traditional liturgies.
They want it in their genre.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well let's go there.
We had a little bit ofdiscussion on that on the way in
.
Recently you ran for nationalBaptist president.
What was that experience like?
What did you learn from thatexperience?
Are you still probablyprocessing?
You want me to be honest?
Yes, please.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
You didn't ask me an honest question Because there
were those in whom I had greatconfidence.
But I've lost that Because ofthe and I'm just being honest,
yes, sir deceptive behavior andmanipulative actions to thwart a
(10:31):
legitimate constitutionalprocess to make an election fair
.
And because of those actionsand dispositions and voting by
those who assume the role ofleadership and governance of our
(10:52):
convention.
I have lost a lot of confidencein them because these were and
are individuals who preachfairness, who preach truth, who
preach unity, who preachrighteousness, but did just the
(11:15):
opposite to favor one individualover against several others,
against several others.
And, in my opinion, God did notsmile upon it, is not smiling
upon it and, as far as mytheological ramifications go,
(11:35):
cannot smile upon it.
As for me, my conscience isclear.
We did everything by the book.
We followed every rule, evenduring the time of filing
grievance.
We filed our grievance, whichwas legitimate.
We proved all of our records,not once, not twice, but three
(11:57):
times.
And for the directors of theboard to vote, not to take a
constitutional matter to thebody politic of a convention so
that a convention could decideits own destiny, Then this body
(12:17):
becomes a dictatorship for thosewho pay the bills but who
cannot have a voice or a vote.
This is my dissatisfaction anddisaffection with those who, in
the name of brotherhood,righteousness, convention, who
(12:42):
perhaps don't know where ourconvention once was Some, I
believe, do remember our days ofcarrying 40,000 plus into an
arena, into a city, on any givenconvention venue.
This city itself couldn't holdus all.
(13:02):
We were staying 30 and 40 milesout, some 60 miles, just
because of what the conventionhad at that time people and
properties.
In fact, the convention oncehad a seat at the United Nations
(13:24):
, with the power to help shapeworld policy, and to have been
relegated to where we are now isan insult to those who paved
the way for the convention tobecome what it had become and
what it is today.
And what it is today, and tosee the recipients of all of
(13:45):
that hard labor, all of thathard work, all of that sacrifice
, reduce the convention to whatit is today and to manipulate
your own brother, whose hand youshook, whose shoulders you
hugged, et cetera, andmanipulate him out of the
(14:08):
process and them out of theprocess.
So, beyond that, I am fine.
I'm still who I am.
I never stopped preaching.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I never waned from pastoring and it's not hard for
me to shake their hands and lookat them eye to eye, because I
know my conscience is clear andI know we did the right thing.
As far as the convention itself, I can only hope and pray that
it finds its purpose andrediscovered Its purpose.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Would you be open to involvement in that process or
sort of after this experience,or you need more time to think
through that?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I am I.
I'm no longer processingbecause I went through the
process.
I'll say I am, I am, if I could.
For the lack of a better word,I'm healing from it.
For lack of a better word, I'mhealing from it Because to have
seen what I've seen, to haveexperienced what I've
(15:17):
experienced, is a disappointment.
So if healing is not the word,I'm getting over the
disappointment, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I know that was transparent andhonest.
That's what we try to do herein this space.
So, let's kind of dig deeperinto convention and maybe some
of the historical you mentionedJX Jackson earlier, some of
maybe the historical blind spotsin my opinion, maybe that we
(15:47):
didn't see even in the years ofhaving 40,000 people having
things in place, as we talkedabout earlier.
Look at institutions like WorldVision, samaritan Purse, ie, on
and on and on, and in no way Ican list other
African-American-ledorganizations to make the same.
Even maybe if you look at someof the fluidity of the
(16:09):
conferences just you know, ek,bailey, ic3, and so on and so on
a WHW Frank Ray's conferenceyou think exists even in the
(16:33):
quote unquote, heyday that maybe led to no longer being a
voice in local politics,national politics, world
politics, not having systems inplace to make sure that at least
there's a clean process.
I'm sure if somebody else wason the opposite side in space
they'll make an argument.
They did do all these thingsand your angle is just looking
(16:54):
at it through your angle.
But if there was maybe acleaner policy in place, systems
in place, I'm just asking, doyou think could have maybe
avoided some of the cons now inthe experience that you had in
running for president?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I'll take the former first.
Somehow, someway, somewhere,after Joseph Harrison Jackson,
the National Baptist Conventionlost its disposition towards
black nationalism.
We've got God, we've got Jesus.
You talk to a black man?
We've got God, we've got Jesus.
(17:33):
You talk to a black man, he'sgot Jesus right.
But we lost our sense of blacknationalism.
What is black nationalism?
Embracing the black community,advocating for the black
community, black business, blackchurch, hbcus, and the list
goes on and on and on.
We somehow some way devaluedthe importance of what we owned
(18:03):
by trying to amalgamate and andassimilate with another culture
who has never been receptive ofus, and we're beginning to see
that resurface with Trumpism.
So in the days of following DrJames Jackson, the convention
(18:26):
went into a buildingindividualistic kind of church
attitude, meaning that underunder Dr Jameson and God bless
(18:52):
and God rest his soul he had aconcept of the convention having
a headquarters.
So he sold some property,acquired the resources, built a
headquarters, but theheadquarters was never occupied
by the leadership of theconvention entities.
(19:13):
And in the event of paying for abuilding, along with older
pastors dying out, youngerpastors taking on churches who
did not grow up in theconvention era, et cetera,
somehow we lost the protest toproduction kind of mentality.
(19:36):
We lost the proactive agenda asthat of the civil rights era
with John Lewis, with MartinLuther King Jr and others.
So I think that because of theeventuation towards a more
(20:05):
independent black church, welost the collective dependence
of black nationalism and theconvention got lost in that
process, because now most ofwhat black pastors and churches
do is reactionary more so thanproactive.
(20:25):
And this is how other nationalbodies have maintained their
strength, because they had theirown consciousness, their own
mission.
Their mission was clear, theirobjectives were certain, but
somehow, some way, we lost it.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Two things.
One is my analysis and I wouldlove to be corrected of JX
Jackson's reign.
It was highly controversial.
(21:15):
He was someone that extendedhis term somehow some way every
time he also was in ourequivalent.
Pro-nixon would be equivalentto being pro-Trump today almost
that's quiet.
Nixon was not as polarizing,but it was divisiveness towards
that and there was always atemper.
In fact, there's a YouTube clipwhere people are bullying him
Right Because of his support forthe conservative agenda.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah yeah, he was a staunch Republican.
His philosophy was you have tohave something to get to the
table for negotiations.
You have the power to negotiateto gain leverage from your
opponent.
I was about to say oppressors,but to him they weren't
(22:01):
oppressors.
If he knew it, he didn't makeit known because he knew that
they were going to win and hesaid it in one of his sermons it
might not have been the one towhich you're referring which the
title was the challenge of thecross.
His contention was vote for thecandidate who is going to win,
(22:24):
and aside from that was MartinLuther King Jr's disposition.
We've got to fight for ourrights.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And the King clash right.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
The clash was really over tenure in the National
Baptist Convention, more so thanpolitical disposition, because
Dr Jackson's because of hiseloquent preaching and pulpit
aura he was the one whoincorporated the voting of the
president for a successive termby having the vote taken after
(23:02):
he preached.
So while the people will honorthat Jace Jackson preaching
spell, they voted back in timeafter time after time.
That's how he did, I think, for27 years.
Yeah, that's unheard of.
It's unheard of.
So he and Martin Luther King Jrnever came to terms on how to
(23:28):
handle black nationalism.
King's thing was give us ourrights.
We want to live where we wantto live, work where we want to
work, be in the politicalprocess as we deserve.
Because of what happened inReconstruction 1980, I mean 1880
, 1873.
(23:49):
I mean 1880, 1873.
Nevertheless, jace Jackson'scontention was move from protest
to production, own something,negotiate, demand and have
leverage.
And they were at an impasse andnever came to terms one with
(24:16):
the other.
So to the latter part of yourquestion the system that the
convention had in place toprevent what happened in
September 2024 was systematicenough for the convention not to
embarrass itself and insultindividuals who are vying for
the office of the presidency.
It was systematic enough sothat people who registered
(24:42):
churches who registered, wouldnot be disenfranchised this law.
I think it was Plato, noAugustine, who said any law that
is unjust is no law at all.
Our law, which is theConstitution, or the Convention
(25:05):
that is, is not unjust.
It was decent enough,systematic enough, clarion
enough to be followed, but thoseindividuals who are governing
the board and the leadership forthe convention failed to follow
that, which is how we've endedup where we are, and now we've
gotten even weaker.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
What was your maybe three passions that you had for
the convention if you were ableto get the opportunity to serve
as president?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Foreign mission, if I can say foreign mission and I
don't like to use the wordforeign, they're our brothers
and sisters Worldwide mission.
Worldwide mission to affectthose in undeveloped countries
to the extent that they couldbecome self-sustaining.
Now, evangelism, of course, isat the top of all of this.
(26:00):
Now you can call it churchcampaign, membership drive.
It all boils down to evangelism, because the convention is a
conglomerate of churches, not achurch itself.
Second piece would have beenthat of the African-American
community helping our peoplereinvest in themselves.
(26:24):
The third piece would have beenthe political component, so as
to affect the politicallandscape with capable and
competent individuals who arevery strong with black
consciousness.
I am unapologetic when it comesto my community, because any
(26:47):
other demographic or culture inAmerica is blatant.
They are sincere about who theyare and what they want.
They are sincere about who theyare and what they want.
You take anyone from the Jewishcommunity.
Their concern is the state ofIsrael.
Take any Palestinian or Arab,for that matter.
(27:08):
their main concern is thePalestinian state and,
unashamedly, the demographic inMichigan, the Palestinian
demographic voting demographicrefused to vote in this past
election did not because ofwhat's going on in Gaza as we
speak.
Why?
(27:33):
Because their concern is thePalestinian state.
You've never heard anyone fromthe LGBTQ community.
You've never heard anyone fromthe LGBTQ community, and this is
not to say that your show normy personal disposition is
against LGBTQ.
That's not the issue here.
The point is they have anagenda.
They push their agenda.
Absolutely Right agenda,absolutely Right.
(27:59):
We see now what the whitesupremacist agenda has been
since Donald Trump came down anescalator and announced his
candidacy for president,president of the United States
of America.
This is why you got had aninsurrection, people climbing,
scaling walls of the nationcapital when the steps were just
a few feet away from them toexpress their nationalism.
The black community does nothave a specific agenda since the
(28:26):
civil rights era.
This is where I will have beentaking the convention, the
convention Now.
This includes job fairs, llcforums, rural church programs,
(28:47):
pastoral counseling, and thelist goes on.
This is where I will have takenthe convention on a major scale
to answer your question aboutmy three passions and I think
this will have at least gottenus to a more relevant and
respectable level in Americansociety.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Well, man, so much more to talk about.
We're out of time.
Praise God for it.
But I want to get out of hereon something fun because we've
been heavy the whole time.
What is hooping?
And fun because we've beenheavy the whole time.
What is?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
hooping.
Hooping is, in the words ofHenry Mitchell, is indescribable
.
It's that indescribablesomething that is a part of the
African-American preachingexperience.
It is that lyrical summation ofa sermon that he says, and
(29:47):
along with Frank Thomas, who isnow the voice on black preaching
, this comes from our Africanheritage who, in the event of
their communicating, they sangtheir communication, they
intoned their communication,they verbalized it with, you
(30:09):
know, cadence and this kind ofclosing of a sermon, I believe,
embraces a whole lot of nuance.
But what is it?
It's hard to describe.
My thing is it's the summationof that sermon with some musical
(30:37):
emphasis.
The black preachers got toholler, for whatever reason.
And in the event of thathooping or that hollering, it
just seems like it's the icingon the cake.
Yes, sir, yeah on the cake, yessir, yeah.
And for others who may, youknow, not feel as though lyrical
(31:01):
preaching is educated, right,you know it's antiquated, I beg
to differ, because when thatblack preacher gets into that
cadence and that music, thatrhythmic conveyance of that
(31:23):
sermon, and then close it withthe hoop, it says now I'm
celebrating.
Yeah, I've given you themessage, but just let me give
you some extra to hold on tothis message.
I feel good now.
Yeah, this part's for me, notjust for you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, Top five hoopers of all time in your
opinion.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
That's a tough one.
Now, of course we know CLFranklin gets the number one
space.
We know that I guess I was abig fan of Cesar Clark yeah, he
would be one.
(32:10):
And of course those we heardmostly, and of course those we
heard mostly 1990s of theyounger generation I guess would
be Jasper Williams who wasrecording at the time in the
1980s.
(32:30):
Now four and five this is goingto be kind of hard to say top
five hoopers, and I'm saying I'musing these names because
pre-social media.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
To hear a preacher was to go where they were
preaching Originality.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And so we heard the so-called intellectuals the
Samuel DeWitt Proctors, theGardner Taylors, the YT Walkers,
so, and the Dr Sandy Rays.
We heard them, but they didn't.
They didn't holler and hooplike the other guys, so to speak
(33:15):
.
Like the other guys, so tospeak.
So, since they were the voiceswe heard, pre-social media
conventions, congresses andrevivals when they would come to
our cities, those are the topthree names that really come to
mind.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I'm struggling with four and five.
You've got to give us too long.
And I could call several names,just some names that jump out
to you.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Don't worry about top five.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Just some great hoopers period.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Original raw talent.
Bernard Mitchell, even thoughhe's a cousin of mine, is just a
rare gifted preacher who workshard at putting his sermon
together, delivers his sermonand then hoops it out towards
(34:10):
the end.
And for number five.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Don't even worry about the five, just people that
jump to your mind when youthink about oh, that's a good,
that's somebody that's good atthe craft.
I have to go east coast, westcoast so many there's so many
areas, so many ranges, so manydifferent styles, so many
different ways, and of courseyou can't put yourself on there
(34:42):
but everybody else will put youon there.
So you'll be the imaginary fivefor the rest of us.
For the rest of us, not you.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Yeah, yes, yeah.
So I would say, guys, pastorswho I preach with, maybe in
revivals, man, it's tough yeahso many.
It's tough.
I would mention a Tim Glenn.
(35:11):
Tim Glenn, Tolan Morgan.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Oh, and a Tolan Morgan, I would say this younger
generation a Toland Morgan.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
I think he would be a legitimate rounding out the
five.
Yeah, yes, I didn't think ofToland.
Different styles and differentoccasions Tremendous preacher.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Some people have the smoother styles and things of
that nature.
People who intellect in theirpreaching sometimes make you
miss how good their preaching,their closing is, and so on, and
so on, and so on.
Lastly, five whatever, not evena number just most impactful
(35:51):
black preachers in Americanhistory.
In American history In Americanhistory.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Aside from those names that we mentioned, you
know the originators of theblack church like—.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Richard Allen Richard .
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Allen, you're not referencing them, of course.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, I would put—I would reference Allen then.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Well then you've got to put the founding fathers
there.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And who would be consistent founding fathers.
You have Richard Allen, josephHarrison, jackson Joseph.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Harrison Jackson, and today, I mean, you got Otis
Moss, a tremendous intellectual,harry Wright, who's still
living.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Otis Moss Jr.
Otis.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Moss Jr, otis Moss Jr .
Yeah, not the third, not thethird, otis Moss Jr.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
But the third is great, but you're talking about
overall impact.
Otis Moss Jr.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
He may be on song yeah very on song.
But my God, what anintellectual, what a tremendous
preacher.
Martin Luther King Jr has to bea part of that conversation.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Frederick Douglass.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Oh God, frederick.
Well, there's your five.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yeah, there's your five, and I mean who is
comparable to a Samuel DeWittProctor.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, there's a lot, I think.
When I think of impact, I'mthinking of the Kings, the
Douglases, that's just preachinghistory.
Americans.
Shaping the church that spillsover, you probably have to put
Charles Mason.
Shade being the church thatspills over, you probably have
to put Charles.
What is it, charles Mason?
Speaker 3 (37:41):
from the community.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, CH Mason you probably have to put in there as
well.
Well, listen, we have to bringyou back because I know half of
the stuff I didn't get to that Iwanted to talk to for.
But thank you for your time andtransparency, your honesty here
on Nuance Conversations.
Thank you for your time andtransparency, your honesty here
on Nuance Conversations.
Thank you for tuning in, lookout for the next episode,
upcoming season and ways thatyou can support this space.
(38:07):
My name is George Hart, againcreator and curator, and we're
out.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
What did y'all know about Detroit?
Absolutely Well.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I had an uncle here or there.
Rather, I'm in California now.
My mother's oldest brotherlived there.
In fact it was his home inwhich I stayed until they got
the church's parsonage.
I don't live in a parsonage now, but until the church's house
(00:53):
was ready I stayed in his homeand my aunt's home, along with
their two daughters and son, andhis bed was my bed.
So, yeah, she handled it like achamp and Cecil was.
(01:15):
As a matter of fact, she waspregnant with our oldest
daughter, brandy, at the timeand I didn't know much about
Detroit anymore than having gonethere to do that revival Did
two of them.
They called me after the secondone and I had to come to know
what Detroit was all about.
Otherwise it was just going toa place to preach, staying doing
(01:37):
the revival.
Revival is over.
Catch a plane, go home.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
What was the context of Detroit at this point?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Detroit was transitioning out of the civil
rights, the impact of the civilrights era, the transformation
of blacks coming into politicsmore heavily than the 1960s and
1970s.
1960s and 1970s, I think atthat time Detroit had a black
(02:08):
mayor when I arrived in the city, coleman Young Of Detroit.
Yes, coleman Alexander Young.
So the political landscape waschanging.
Blacks were coming into theirown politically.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
It's 1985.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It's 1985.
Socially, geographically aswell.
So it was a emerging DetroitWell, I would say re-emerging
and a re-imagining of Detroitwhen I went there as pastor.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Did you know any other pastors there at the time?
I did not, besides Simmons, whoyou did the revival for.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I did not.
I did not know any pastors inDetroit.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
What was your first?
Some of your first earlyrelationships there.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
The pastors who received me were pastors Gabriel
Lewis, who pastored the SecondBaptist, second Royal Baptist
Church.
I remember Ferndale EverettJennings who, by the way, his
mother and my mother wereRobinsons who came from the same
(03:23):
town in Alabama DemopolisAlabama Now Demopolis is about
as big as this microphone thatI'm speaking on.
So the likelihood of twoRobinsons coming from that place
, which was so small, werecousins, and this is how I
bonded with the Jennings family.
(03:44):
Edward L Branch, who is nowretired, pastored the Third New
Hope Baptist Church and DrVellman Stotts, who became a
mentor, dr David Kelly.
Yes, Unity Baptist.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Church.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Dr David Kelly these are men who are now resting in
the pleasantries of paradiseTook me in as his own son and
under his tutelage, and as timeprogressed I began to meet other
pastors.
Preach for other pastors werethe first who embraced me as a
newcomer into the city ofDetroit and into the black
(04:27):
church community, and I'll neverforget them for how they took
me as a brother and as a son.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yes, what was Galilee like as a church and what was
that transition like, especiallyin comparison to having so many
intimate relationships in theSouthern hospitality, if you
will, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Galilee at the time was a family church, very
close-knitted, not a largecongregation at all it might
have been 300 members there onthe church's roll and very
family controlled and over time,with new disciples influxing
(05:16):
and ingressing into ourcongregation, that family group
and this is not to demean orbelittle you know those families
because, matter of fact, our83rd church anniversary was just
this past Sunday and I justcalled the roll, the names of
those individuals whose familieswere foundational in our church
, so that to remind ourcongregants now who who is at
(05:38):
the foundation of our church.
But when those families beganto wane or die out, so to speak,
the elders, the oldergeneration dying out, newcomers
began to come into our churchfamily.
The church dynamics ofleadership and worker-ship began
(06:03):
to change and more accepting ofindividuals who were not of
blood or friendship began toassume roles of leadership in
our church.
That was different Now,culturally, whereas the South
was more spirited in theirworship expression and their
(06:31):
cordial behavior.
You know you can go to anybody'shouse at any time, Culture
shock and you get to Michigan.
Different type of culture Now.
They were spiritual, trueenough, spirited, yes, but not
as Southern aura and ambiance ofworship.
(06:52):
I take it that they were moreappreciative of an intellectual
approach to church work, tochurch worship, to preaching
church liturgy, whereas theSouth, you know it was—and this
(07:12):
does not infer that they wereless appreciative of—or not
appreciative, rather of anintellectual approach to things.
But it was this emotive, moreemotive and emotively expressive
in their worship than a crowdthat would listen for substance
(07:34):
in a sermonic expression, ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Absolutely, absolutely.
How are you maturing as apreacher and a pastor at this
point?
Still growing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Man, I'm still growing, I'm still learning.
I learned from younger pastorslike yourself.
And what are you guys doing?
How are you affecting yourcongregation?
Now I am growing, I would sayintellectually, I am growing
more socially with the youngergeneration Now.
(08:09):
I grew up old school preacherconservative suit, white shirt,
black tie and the young peoplehave gotten me out of it was
like pulling hen's teeth out ofa necktie in the pulpit.
I mean that's sacrilegious man,but what am I doing?
I am demeaning my training, butno, but nevertheless, and
(08:32):
matter of fact, it'd beyouth-led worship this Sunday.
So I will be tireless andprobably in casual shoes,
because I'm growing, not thatI'm trying to be different.
I'm growing and learning thatsometimes you can allow
(08:52):
tradition to be an impedimentand concretize to a certain
custom, that it could become animpediment to your generational
connect.
And if this is what it takes toconnect, then I'm no less
preacher, I'm no less pastor,I'm no less a father figure.
(09:16):
It's just that this is a typeof aura that they can identify
with Because this Generation Z,and some of the millennials as
well, they are different intheir worship posture and they
could care less about you andyour necktie and your collar and
(09:40):
your traditional liturgies.
They want it in their genre.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well let's go there.
We had a little bit ofdiscussion on that on the way in
.
Recently you ran for nationalBaptist president.
What was that experience like?
What did you learn from thatexperience?
Are you still probablyprocessing?
You want me to be honest?
Yes, please.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
You didn't ask me an honest question Because there
were those in whom I had greatconfidence.
But I've lost that Because ofthe and I'm just being honest,
yes, sir deceptive behavior andmanipulative actions to thwart a
(10:31):
legitimate constitutionalprocess to make an election fair
.
And because of those actionsand dispositions and voting by
those who assume the role ofleadership and governance of our
(10:52):
convention.
I have lost a lot of confidencein them because these were and
are individuals who preachfairness, who preach truth, who
preach unity, who preachrighteousness, but did just the
(11:15):
opposite to favor one individualover against several others,
against several others.
And, in my opinion, God did notsmile upon it, is not smiling
upon it and, as far as mytheological ramifications go,
(11:35):
cannot smile upon it.
As for me, my conscience isclear.
We did everything by the book.
We followed every rule, evenduring the time of filing
grievance.
We filed our grievance, whichwas legitimate.
We proved all of our records,not once, not twice, but three
(11:57):
times.
And for the directors of theboard to vote, not to take a
constitutional matter to thebody politic of a convention so
that a convention could decideits own destiny, Then this body
(12:17):
becomes a dictatorship for thosewho pay the bills but who
cannot have a voice or a vote.
This is my dissatisfaction anddisaffection with those who, in
the name of brotherhood,righteousness, convention, who
(12:42):
perhaps don't know where ourconvention once was Some, I
believe, do remember our days ofcarrying 40,000 plus into an
arena, into a city, on any givenconvention venue.
This city itself couldn't holdus all.
(13:02):
We were staying 30 and 40 milesout, some 60 miles, just
because of what the conventionhad at that time people and
properties.
In fact, the convention oncehad a seat at the United Nations
(13:24):
, with the power to help shapeworld policy, and to have been
relegated to where we are now isan insult to those who paved
the way for the convention tobecome what it had become and
what it is today.
And what it is today, and tosee the recipients of all of
(13:45):
that hard labor, all of thathard work, all of that sacrifice
, reduce the convention to whatit is today and to manipulate
your own brother, whose hand youshook, whose shoulders you
hugged, et cetera, andmanipulate him out of the
(14:08):
process and them out of theprocess.
So, beyond that, I am fine.
I'm still who I am.
I never stopped preaching.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I never waned from pastoring and it's not hard for
me to shake their hands and lookat them eye to eye, because I
know my conscience is clear andI know we did the right thing.
As far as the convention itself, I can only hope and pray that
it finds its purpose andrediscovered Its purpose.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Would you be open to involvement in that process or
sort of after this experience,or you need more time to think
through that?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I am I.
I'm no longer processingbecause I went through the
process.
I'll say I am, I am, if I could.
For the lack of a better word,I'm healing from it.
For lack of a better word, I'mhealing from it Because to have
seen what I've seen, to haveexperienced what I've
(15:17):
experienced, is a disappointment.
So if healing is not the word,I'm getting over the
disappointment, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I know that was transparent andhonest.
That's what we try to do herein this space.
So, let's kind of dig deeperinto convention and maybe some
of the historical you mentionedJX Jackson earlier, some of
maybe the historical blind spotsin my opinion, maybe that we
(15:47):
didn't see even in the years ofhaving 40,000 people having
things in place, as we talkedabout earlier.
Look at institutions like WorldVision, samaritan Purse, ie, on
and on and on, and in no way Ican list other
African-American-ledorganizations to make the same.
Even maybe if you look at someof the fluidity of the
(16:09):
conferences just you know, ek,bailey, ic3, and so on and so on
a WHW Frank Ray's conferenceyou think exists even in the
(16:33):
quote unquote, heyday that maybe led to no longer being a
voice in local politics,national politics, world
politics, not having systems inplace to make sure that at least
there's a clean process.
I'm sure if somebody else wason the opposite side in space
they'll make an argument.
They did do all these thingsand your angle is just looking
(16:54):
at it through your angle.
But if there was maybe acleaner policy in place, systems
in place, I'm just asking, doyou think could have maybe
avoided some of the cons now inthe experience that you had in
running for president?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I'll take the former first.
Somehow, someway, somewhere,after Joseph Harrison Jackson,
the National Baptist Conventionlost its disposition towards
black nationalism.
We've got God, we've got Jesus.
You talk to a black man?
We've got God, we've got Jesus.
(17:33):
You talk to a black man, he'sgot Jesus right.
But we lost our sense of blacknationalism.
What is black nationalism?
Embracing the black community,advocating for the black
community, black business, blackchurch, hbcus, and the list
goes on and on and on.
We somehow some way devaluedthe importance of what we owned
(18:03):
by trying to amalgamate and andassimilate with another culture
who has never been receptive ofus, and we're beginning to see
that resurface with Trumpism.
So in the days of following DrJames Jackson, the convention
(18:26):
went into a buildingindividualistic kind of church
attitude, meaning that underunder Dr Jameson and God bless
(18:52):
and God rest his soul he had aconcept of the convention having
a headquarters.
So he sold some property,acquired the resources, built a
headquarters, but theheadquarters was never occupied
by the leadership of theconvention entities.
(19:13):
And in the event of paying for abuilding, along with older
pastors dying out, youngerpastors taking on churches who
did not grow up in theconvention era, et cetera,
somehow we lost the protest toproduction kind of mentality.
(19:36):
We lost the proactive agenda asthat of the civil rights era
with John Lewis, with MartinLuther King Jr and others.
So I think that because of theeventuation towards a more
(20:05):
independent black church, welost the collective dependence
of black nationalism and theconvention got lost in that
process, because now most ofwhat black pastors and churches
do is reactionary more so thanproactive.
(20:25):
And this is how other nationalbodies have maintained their
strength, because they had theirown consciousness, their own
mission.
Their mission was clear, theirobjectives were certain, but
somehow, some way, we lost it.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Two things.
One is my analysis and I wouldlove to be corrected of JX
Jackson's reign.
It was highly controversial.
(21:15):
He was someone that extendedhis term somehow some way every
time he also was in ourequivalent.
Pro-nixon would be equivalentto being pro-Trump today almost
that's quiet.
Nixon was not as polarizing,but it was divisiveness towards
that and there was always atemper.
In fact, there's a YouTube clipwhere people are bullying him
Right Because of his support forthe conservative agenda.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah yeah, he was a staunch Republican.
His philosophy was you have tohave something to get to the
table for negotiations.
You have the power to negotiateto gain leverage from your
opponent.
I was about to say oppressors,but to him they weren't
(22:01):
oppressors.
If he knew it, he didn't makeit known because he knew that
they were going to win and hesaid it in one of his sermons it
might not have been the one towhich you're referring which the
title was the challenge of thecross.
His contention was vote for thecandidate who is going to win,
(22:24):
and aside from that was MartinLuther King Jr's disposition.
We've got to fight for ourrights.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And the King clash right.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
The clash was really over tenure in the National
Baptist Convention, more so thanpolitical disposition, because
Dr Jackson's because of hiseloquent preaching and pulpit
aura he was the one whoincorporated the voting of the
president for a successive termby having the vote taken after
(23:02):
he preached.
So while the people will honorthat Jace Jackson preaching
spell, they voted back in timeafter time after time.
That's how he did, I think, for27 years.
Yeah, that's unheard of.
It's unheard of.
So he and Martin Luther King Jrnever came to terms on how to
(23:28):
handle black nationalism.
King's thing was give us ourrights.
We want to live where we wantto live, work where we want to
work, be in the politicalprocess as we deserve.
Because of what happened inReconstruction 1980, I mean 1880
, 1873.
(23:49):
I mean 1880, 1873.
Nevertheless, jace Jackson'scontention was move from protest
to production, own something,negotiate, demand and have
leverage.
And they were at an impasse andnever came to terms one with
(24:16):
the other.
So to the latter part of yourquestion the system that the
convention had in place toprevent what happened in
September 2024 was systematicenough for the convention not to
embarrass itself and insultindividuals who are vying for
the office of the presidency.
It was systematic enough sothat people who registered
(24:42):
churches who registered, wouldnot be disenfranchised this law.
I think it was Plato, noAugustine, who said any law that
is unjust is no law at all.
Our law, which is theConstitution, or the Convention
(25:05):
that is, is not unjust.
It was decent enough,systematic enough, clarion
enough to be followed, but thoseindividuals who are governing
the board and the leadership forthe convention failed to follow
that, which is how we've endedup where we are, and now we've
gotten even weaker.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
What was your maybe three passions that you had for
the convention if you were ableto get the opportunity to serve
as president?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Foreign mission, if I can say foreign mission and I
don't like to use the wordforeign, they're our brothers
and sisters Worldwide mission.
Worldwide mission to affectthose in undeveloped countries
to the extent that they couldbecome self-sustaining.
Now, evangelism, of course, isat the top of all of this.
(26:00):
Now you can call it churchcampaign, membership drive.
It all boils down to evangelism, because the convention is a
conglomerate of churches, not achurch itself.
Second piece would have beenthat of the African-American
community helping our peoplereinvest in themselves.
(26:24):
The third piece would have beenthe political component, so as
to affect the politicallandscape with capable and
competent individuals who arevery strong with black
consciousness.
I am unapologetic when it comesto my community, because any
(26:47):
other demographic or culture inAmerica is blatant.
They are sincere about who theyare and what they want.
They are sincere about who theyare and what they want.
You take anyone from the Jewishcommunity.
Their concern is the state ofIsrael.
Take any Palestinian or Arab,for that matter.
(27:08):
their main concern is thePalestinian state and,
unashamedly, the demographic inMichigan, the Palestinian
demographic voting demographicrefused to vote in this past
election did not because ofwhat's going on in Gaza as we
speak.
Why?
(27:33):
Because their concern is thePalestinian state.
You've never heard anyone fromthe LGBTQ community.
You've never heard anyone fromthe LGBTQ community, and this is
not to say that your show normy personal disposition is
against LGBTQ.
That's not the issue here.
The point is they have anagenda.
They push their agenda.
Absolutely Right agenda,absolutely Right.
(27:59):
We see now what the whitesupremacist agenda has been
since Donald Trump came down anescalator and announced his
candidacy for president,president of the United States
of America.
This is why you got had aninsurrection, people climbing,
scaling walls of the nationcapital when the steps were just
a few feet away from them toexpress their nationalism.
The black community does nothave a specific agenda since the
(28:26):
civil rights era.
This is where I will have beentaking the convention, the
convention Now.
This includes job fairs, llcforums, rural church programs,
(28:47):
pastoral counseling, and thelist goes on.
This is where I will have takenthe convention on a major scale
to answer your question aboutmy three passions and I think
this will have at least gottenus to a more relevant and
respectable level in Americansociety.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Well, man, so much more to talk about.
We're out of time.
Praise God for it.
But I want to get out of hereon something fun because we've
been heavy the whole time.
What is hooping?
And fun because we've beenheavy the whole time.
What is?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
hooping.
Hooping is, in the words ofHenry Mitchell, is indescribable
.
It's that indescribablesomething that is a part of the
African-American preachingexperience.
It is that lyrical summation ofa sermon that he says, and
(29:47):
along with Frank Thomas, who isnow the voice on black preaching
, this comes from our Africanheritage who, in the event of
their communicating, they sangtheir communication, they
intoned their communication,they verbalized it with, you
(30:09):
know, cadence and this kind ofclosing of a sermon, I believe,
embraces a whole lot of nuance.
But what is it?
It's hard to describe.
My thing is it's the summationof that sermon with some musical
(30:37):
emphasis.
The black preachers got toholler, for whatever reason.
And in the event of thathooping or that hollering, it
just seems like it's the icingon the cake.
Yes, sir, yeah on the cake, yessir, yeah.
And for others who may, youknow, not feel as though lyrical
(31:01):
preaching is educated, right,you know it's antiquated, I beg
to differ, because when thatblack preacher gets into that
cadence and that music, thatrhythmic conveyance of that
(31:23):
sermon, and then close it withthe hoop, it says now I'm
celebrating.
Yeah, I've given you themessage, but just let me give
you some extra to hold on tothis message.
I feel good now.
Yeah, this part's for me, notjust for you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, Top five hoopers of all time in your
opinion.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
That's a tough one.
Now, of course we know CLFranklin gets the number one
space.
We know that I guess I was abig fan of Cesar Clark yeah, he
would be one.
(32:10):
And of course those we heardmostly, and of course those we
heard mostly 1990s of theyounger generation I guess would
be Jasper Williams who wasrecording at the time in the
1980s.
(32:30):
Now four and five this is goingto be kind of hard to say top
five hoopers, and I'm saying I'musing these names because
pre-social media.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
To hear a preacher was to go where they were
preaching Originality.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And so we heard the so-called intellectuals the
Samuel DeWitt Proctors, theGardner Taylors, the YT Walkers,
so, and the Dr Sandy Rays.
We heard them, but they didn't.
They didn't holler and hooplike the other guys, so to speak
(33:15):
.
Like the other guys, so tospeak.
So, since they were the voiceswe heard, pre-social media
conventions, congresses andrevivals when they would come to
our cities, those are the topthree names that really come to
mind.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I'm struggling with four and five.
You've got to give us too long.
And I could call several names,just some names that jump out
to you.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Don't worry about top five.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Just some great hoopers period.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Original raw talent.
Bernard Mitchell, even thoughhe's a cousin of mine, is just a
rare gifted preacher who workshard at putting his sermon
together, delivers his sermonand then hoops it out towards
(34:10):
the end.
And for number five.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Don't even worry about the five, just people that
jump to your mind when youthink about oh, that's a good,
that's somebody that's good atthe craft.
I have to go east coast, westcoast so many there's so many
areas, so many ranges, so manydifferent styles, so many
different ways, and of courseyou can't put yourself on there
(34:42):
but everybody else will put youon there.
So you'll be the imaginary fivefor the rest of us.
For the rest of us, not you.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Yeah, yes, yeah.
So I would say, guys, pastorswho I preach with, maybe in
revivals, man, it's tough yeahso many.
It's tough.
I would mention a Tim Glenn.
(35:11):
Tim Glenn, Tolan Morgan.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Oh, and a Tolan Morgan, I would say this younger
generation a Toland Morgan.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
I think he would be a legitimate rounding out the
five.
Yeah, yes, I didn't think ofToland.
Different styles and differentoccasions Tremendous preacher.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Some people have the smoother styles and things of
that nature.
People who intellect in theirpreaching sometimes make you
miss how good their preaching,their closing is, and so on, and
so on, and so on.
Lastly, five whatever, not evena number just most impactful
(35:51):
black preachers in Americanhistory.
In American history In Americanhistory.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Aside from those names that we mentioned, you
know the originators of theblack church like—.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Richard Allen Richard .
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Allen, you're not referencing them, of course.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, I would put—I would reference Allen then.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Well then you've got to put the founding fathers
there.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And who would be consistent founding fathers.
You have Richard Allen, josephHarrison, jackson Joseph.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Harrison Jackson, and today, I mean, you got Otis
Moss, a tremendous intellectual,harry Wright, who's still
living.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Otis Moss Jr.
Otis.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Moss Jr, otis Moss Jr .
Yeah, not the third, not thethird, otis Moss Jr.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
But the third is great, but you're talking about
overall impact.
Otis Moss Jr.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
He may be on song yeah very on song.
But my God, what anintellectual, what a tremendous
preacher.
Martin Luther King Jr has to bea part of that conversation.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Frederick Douglass.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Oh God, frederick.
Well, there's your five.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yeah, there's your five, and I mean who is
comparable to a Samuel DeWittProctor.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, there's a lot, I think.
When I think of impact, I'mthinking of the Kings, the
Douglases, that's just preachinghistory.
Americans.
Shaping the church that spillsover, you probably have to put
Charles Mason.
Shade being the church thatspills over, you probably have
to put Charles.
What is it, charles Mason?
Speaker 3 (37:41):
from the community.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, CH Mason you probably have to put in there as
well.
Well, listen, we have to bringyou back because I know half of
the stuff I didn't get to that Iwanted to talk to for.
But thank you for your time andtransparency, your honesty here
on Nuance Conversations.
Thank you for your time andtransparency, your honesty here
on Nuance Conversations.
Thank you for tuning in, lookout for the next episode,
upcoming season and ways thatyou can support this space.
(38:07):
My name is George Hart, againcreator and curator, and we're
out.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
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