April 24, 2025 • 31 mins
A glazed donut becomes the unlikely catalyst for a spiritual transformation in this powerful conversation with Dr. KW Tulis, pastor of the historic Willow Street Baptist Church in Los Angeles. Born to a 16-year-old single mother in Compton and raised in South LA, Dr. Tulis shares his raw, unfiltered journey through family trauma, identity struggles, and divine intervention.
The turning point came when he was just 13 years old, facing the prospect of foster care as his mother battled crack addiction. That night, remembering a sermon about prayer from a church he initially attended only for the Sunday school donuts, young KW made a fateful promise: "If you just help my mother one time, I promise you I'll serve you till I die." What happened next changed the trajectory of his family forever—his mother found deliverance through their local church community, beginning a 34-year journey of sobriety that continues today.
Dr. Tulis takes us through his evolution from church attendee to armor bearer, from youth pastor to community activist, revealing how mentors like Pastor LC Carter and Reverend Al Sharpton shaped his understanding of ministry and social justice. With remarkable transparency, he discusses navigating his dual identity as both "church boy" and football player at Locke High School—a place many believed nothing good could come from.
The conversation doesn't shy away from complex topics, including Dr. Tulis's nuanced perspective on women's reproductive rights informed by his own origin story. His willingness to engage with the gray areas of faith and social issues embodies the podcast's mission to move beyond simplistic answers.
Subscribe now to hear the full story of how donuts led to deliverance, and how personal testimony becomes public ministry in the hands of someone committed to both spiritual growth and community transformation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Greetings, welcome to another episode of the Nuance
Conversation podcast.
My name is George Hurt.
I am the creator and curator ofthis space.
Thank you so much for tuning into our second season, and I
have again, and sometimes weoveruse the word friend and
(00:49):
certainly we overuse the notionof brother.
But this is a friend and abrother, not just a brother, a
brother beloved, who was kindenough his most tremendous busy
schedule to make time come sitdown with us.
He has a story of overcomingadversity which all of us have
faced, but not always we have toface that with the outside
(01:14):
rumblings trying to make theirposition and their opinions
known and felt.
In that We'll get into that asmuch as he feels comfortable
with it.
But more importantly, he offersus so much from the spiritual
realm, from the social realm asit relates to social justice,
from the political realm andcertainly in his current role,
(01:38):
which soon we'll betransitioning out of, he's
served his faithful terms.
He's submitted to the bylawsand constitutions.
He didn't extend that, whichmany of us would have loved him
to do so.
He is the pastor of thehistorical Willow Street Baptist
Church in Los Angeles,california.
(01:59):
He's homegrown.
He's a Dodgers fan Laker fan.
If it got LA, he down with it,I'm down with it.
Pastor, president, preacher parexcellence, Dr KW Tulis.
How are you doing, sir?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Man, I'm doing good.
George, I'm just so happy to behere.
I'm excited about all thatyou're doing.
I appreciate that introductionman.
I'm going to take you allacross the world with me,
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And have you introduce me Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I want to say thank you, man, for having me on this
gracious platform a platformthat is growing, a platform that
means a lot to our communitybecause, just seeing the
transparency that you bring outof people, it's a platform that
I love, that I'm honored to be apart of man appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
We got to swear you in.
That's what we have to do toeverybody that come here.
So you got to swear, to be open, to be honest, to be
transparent, to be intelligentin a nuanced conversation.
Podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Man, I do yes, yes, we got to.
I'm used to saying that I doyes, we got to Listen.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
This is a space that's meant to operate in the
gray, not the black and white,to be nuanced.
That's the name.
We're comfortable with blackand white.
We're comfortable.
This is wrong, this is right.
But sometimes, and most timesin life, the groove is in the
middle.
Um, and as it relates to thatum, that's from religion to
(03:27):
social norms, pop culture, umand politics.
You can speak to all of that umin so many ways, on so many
levels.
But before we dig into anynuance as it relates to those
two categories, how are youdoing today?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Man, I'm doing good man, in the words of one of them
famous songwriters.
I don't look like what I'vebeen through, you know, and so
I'm thankful.
I'm grateful, but I'm thankfulthat God, through it all, has
brought me closer and closer tohim.
So I'm a work in progress.
I still got my smile and I'mlooking forward to the greater
(04:05):
works that God has in store.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
What have you been?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
through man.
You know been through a lifeLife be, life.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Life be life.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That's what they say Life be life.
And so in my time here on earthof understanding that my life,
even from birth, was birththrough struggle, meaning that,
you know, I was raised by a 16year old single mother here in
(04:33):
Los Angeles trying to.
That's 1977.
Born in Compton, Raised inSouth Los Angeles to a mother
who all she wanted was to haveher son to, you know, just be a
(04:53):
strong and productive young man,A mother that taught me how to
be independent at a young age,being raised in South Los
Angeles, going through thestruggles of just hoping I can
get to and from school.
I went to a high school calledLocke High School in Los Angeles
and most people say there'snothing good coming from that
(05:16):
neighborhood.
You know I pushed a life thatyou know was I try to live a
life that was pleasing to Godand pleasing to the community.
So I've had the best of allworlds in life.
You know.
(05:36):
So when I talk about struggles,struggles started with me from
a young age, from high school,to where I am now, from a young
age, from high school to where Iam now and, as I said, through
it all you know, God hasliterally brought me to this
place and I still got my smile.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, well, let's get into that.
When your mom had you at 16, isshe still in high school?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
My mother's still in high school, single mother.
She was visiting an army base,visiting her sister, and got
pregnant in Killeen Texas andshe moved on back to California
and she recognized she waspregnant with a young boy and
(06:20):
she, like I said, when she gavebirth to me she had a great,
strong community, had awonderful grandmother, wonderful
aunties, and they raised me inCompton, California.
So, with that being said, youknow I've seen struggle, you
know.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So she was 16.
She's still living with yourgrandma, and she was a kid.
She's still in with yourgrandma and she was a kid.
She's still in high school theysay babies raising babies, you
know so that she communicateback to her sister this news, or
she didn't say nothing?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
No, my, you know it's funny.
Um, fast forwarding.
I was a child being raised by astrong, uh, a strong woman, and
she felt she can do it all byherself.
Oh well, you know, so she, youknow.
Only thing I knew of my dad washis name.
Only thing I knew of my dad washe lived in Texas, somewhere,
(07:19):
somewhere, and so, but she wentinto life doing it all by
herself.
Um, so, but she went into lifedoing it all by herself, and um,
through that, I've seen thestruggles of, of, of a single
mom trying to make the best forher children, and through that,
you know life, as I say, belifing and at the end of the day
(07:39):
, um, here I am today.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
What, um?
I'm actually questioning aboutthe progression there, but also
that experience in yourbackground and knowing the
bravery and courage of your momand thus not just having you but
developing you does that in anyway feed your perspective on
the hot topic debate todaythat's labeled as pro-life and
(08:05):
pro-choice?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
A hundred percent, you know it doesn't fuel.
I believe, you know, in thewoman's right to choose, even as
a preacher, as a pastor, asprogressive as that might sound
in the minds of some theologians, I believe that God gives us
all the ability to choice, tohave choice, and I'm thankful
(08:27):
that my mother chose to, youknow, keep me a young man, when
I'm sure it was all forms ofways, from adoptions to abortion
, that she could have dealt withthe situation.
But she chose to jump in andsay, hey, I'm going to raise
this young man to be aproductive and honest person in
the community.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, that's.
That's interesting that youwould have that based off of not
even making an assessment on itin this point in the
conversation, but just from yourbackground, to still have that
for those who are of alike-minded position.
I hope they would appreciatethat coming from your experience
(09:10):
.
So you're growing up.
Where does church enter intothis shaping of yourself in
those early years?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, that's a good question, because you know,
growing up my mother, she wantedthe best for me and so she
exposed me to private schoolsfrom all across the city of LA,
and so I really met Christ realyoung, and I was raised in a
household that loved Christ.
(09:41):
We didn't go to church but, youknow, we love Christ.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Through schools Through schools, through schools
Through schools, yeah, throughthese Catholic schools, Through
these Episcopal schools.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Catholic schools Episcopal schools.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
okay, I've learned about Christ, you know so.
I always knew in my spirit,from the age of five to ten,
whenever my mother stopped beingable to afford to pay for my
private private school.
I learned about Christ, and soso she's 22 at this point.
(10:13):
She's about 22.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, go to private school.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Paying for me to get there, and you know I come.
I was raised on a street in LosAngeles 92nd street, so 92nd
and Avalon and the way Christbecame real to me was it was
some missionaries walking downthe middle of the hood, seeing
some young black man playingbasketball, coming in and
(10:39):
engaging with us, and theyinvited us to the church down
the street from our home, whichwas South Los Angeles Baptist
Church, a very familiar churchAt that time.
The pastor was Pastor CurtisMorris, and so they invited me
to church.
I went to church, I learned alittle bit more about Jesus and
I found something very specialat church, pastor Hurt, I found
(11:02):
donuts.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
My.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
God Donuts during the Sunday school.
Man and those Sunday schooldonuts drove me to church week
in and week out.
I just wanted to get a donut.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You wanted to get a donut.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
A donut every week, you ended up getting the bread
of life, not the bread of life.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I wanted a donut.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You started with the bread Human bread.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And so you know, particularly at a time when I
was 13, my mother experiencedwhat was rapid in our community.
She was a drug addict and oneparticular day, me and my
siblings was at home.
(11:42):
My mother said we're going tohave.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Siblings, so you've had.
I going to have siblings, soyou've had.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I've had two siblings .
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So you were first, I was the first.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
And then my mother got remarried and she had three,
three different children, butat this time it was only two of
us Got you and so she gotmarried.
She got married.
Well, she, she, eventually itwas a.
It was a community Mary,meaning that he was my stepdad
and he wasn't my stepdad, if youknow what I mean.
So, long story short, I'm 13.
(12:14):
The social worker came to ourhome and said to me and my
little brother at the time, I'mhere to put you all in foster
care.
And me and my brother looked ateach other and said you're
going to put us in foster carefor what?
And they said well, your motherhas a drug problem, matter of
fact, she said she didn't saythat.
(12:36):
She said your mother's a crackhead and she's tested positive
for drugs.
And I'm here to take you outthis home because your mother
can't take care of you.
And I remember crying with mybrother, we holding each other.
You're not gonna separate usfrom each other.
And um, her mother was crying,you know, because she was like
(12:59):
looking.
She said but I'm gonna giveyour mama one chance and, uh, if
she can get herself together,um, you all can stay in this
environment, but she has to showthe work in progress.
Me knowing the devastation ofdrugs in our community, I just
(13:19):
knew that, uh, it was no hope.
I just knew me and my brotherwas going into a foster home.
But I remember going to churchfor donuts, the glazed donuts
and I remember a pastor by thename of Pastor Morris preaching
a sermon about going into yoursecret closet and praying.
And so that night I said I'mgoing to give it a shot.
(13:40):
That night I remember goinginto my secret closet, praying
and I said to the Lord I said ifyou just help my mother one
time, I promise you I'll serveyou till I die.
This is 13 years old and, justto fast forward my sad story,
(14:01):
I've been serving God ever sinceGod delivered my mother from
crack cocaine.
God delivered my mother fromcrack cocaine.
My mother went back to ourchildhood church, the first
Antioch Missionary BaptistChurch in Los Angeles, and she
literally gave her life toChrist and she took her children
to church with her.
(14:22):
And that's when I saw the powerof the church, the power of the
church community, how they lovemy mother despite her
challenges that she had.
She had a pastor that loved her, she had members that rallied
around her and I saw the powerof the church community and I've
(14:46):
been raised.
I've been in church ever sinceand here it is, 34 years later.
My mother has been clean fromcrack cocaine.
Copy praise.
She's preaching in the pulpit.
She serves at my church andthis is the testimony.
Her testimony became mytestimony because her testimony
(15:09):
brought me closer to God.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
What are?
What are other things thatyou're struggling with, even in
light of being connected to thechurch, dealing with this
reality of the stigmatizationand you know we're the same age
in our community of you know,you know, I mean kids could be
yeah, as relates to that.
Um, what are the things thatyou're yet struggling with in
(15:34):
this point?
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Well, I mean, when we think about the uh, our
communities as a whole, there'sso many different things um that
our community, our faithcommunity, is struggling with
and ultimately, at the end ofthe day, I believe we're not.
We're living in a time wherethis is not grandma church, you
know, and so what individualsare looking for is leaders and
(16:03):
pastors who are transparent, whocan relate to many of the
struggles.
I mean, you're dealing with anew wave of alcoholism, drug
abuse.
We're living in a societythat's not kind to the church,
and so, ultimately, I believeit's up to us as leaders, as
(16:29):
leaders within our community, tocontinue to lead that charge
and let people know that Jesusis the way he is, the truth, is
the light.
But I believe a lot of timespeople are looking at our lives
for that and because of that,many times we become targets of
the cultures of this world.
(16:49):
If it's the council culture,whatever it might be, trying to
stigmatize the church is notbeing relevant today,
transparent and being atransparent leader in days and
times, and letting individualsknow that you know when you're
(17:11):
standing for something you knowyou're going to automatically be
a target for you know of, of,of good and bad.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
I appreciate you saying that, but I think my
question was like, still at thepoint of you being 13 and having
all of these triumphant momentsin your life, through what your
mom has overcome, you as afamily unit has overcome, got it
how First Antioch played a roleStill looking at you in your
(17:41):
early teens there Got it.
What are the things that you'reyet struggling with at that
point?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Man, I'm struggling with my identity.
You know, I don't know if Iwant to be a gangster in my
community or if I want to, youknow, be this church boy that
goes to church faithfully everySunday, who the pastor look out
in the audience and out of allthe young people he picks me to
be his armor bearer, Wowaudience.
(18:06):
And out of all the young peoplehe picks me to be his armor
bearer, Wow.
So I get to walk around andcarry my pastor briefcase.
And my pastor in my early dayswas a little fat, flashy, he
drove around in a limousine.
So I used to go to around myneighborhood in a limousine, you
know, because my pastor ruledlike that, you know.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Elsie Carter.
Yeah, your pastor was LC.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Carter.
Yeah, his name was Dr LC Carter.
He's probably the mostinfluential man that I that I
met at that time.
I mean he showed me theimportance of being godly
through your works being godlythrough your works.
Individuals loved him becausehe was pure, he was transparent.
(18:50):
He'll walk out and run aroundthe neighborhood with no shoes,
talking to people.
He taught me how to be anactivist.
A lot of people think you knowSharpton and all these people.
No, lc Carter taught me as ayoung man.
So I was in that identity stage13, 14.
(19:11):
But the church won.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Wow.
So when did you make thetransition in your mind to like
hey, I'm not a thug, I'm not agangbanger, I'm not a drug
dealer, none of these things.
I'm set on the path for Christ.
I know you say that PastorCarter played a great role in it
(19:34):
.
Well, I guess a better questionwould be in what was the next
step in that evolution, yourarmor bearer?
What was the next step?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Armor bearer, football player at Locke High
School.
You know D-tackle offensiveline.
You know trying to find myself,minister of defense of the
football field.
Pray before every football game.
You know, so trying to findmyself.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Minister of defense is not an athletic term, it's
that you were the spiritual likechaplain of the team.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I was a spiritual chaplain of the team.
I prayed every game you knowplayed on the field.
Reggie White, minister ofdefense.
Get it Reggie White, yeah, yeahyeah, no, I just play, but oh
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
But you are not a minister at this point.
No, I'll just play, but you arenot a minister at this point.
No, no, no, no, okay, okay,nowhere near, that's what.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I was trying to clarify.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, no, I was not a minister at that time.
I was just a young dude atchurch.
You know, going to church everyweek had a responsibility to
carry my pastor briefcase.
That was my job.
Watch my pastor, you know.
Carry his robe, you know.
Whatever it was, I found thatto be a job that you know.
(20:50):
God put me in.
You know when did you startpreaching and fast forward?
I started preaching at the ageof 18.
My pastor retired, elsie Carterand so when he retired it left
a void in my life because thatfather figure that I developed
and you know that came into mylife.
(21:11):
He retired, he retired.
He retired at a young age andmoved to Houston, texas, to do
what?
To retire Just retire.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
He retired from preaching.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
He was in his 60s.
Okay, you know, he wanted to goback home to Texas.
So him and his family retired.
We had a big celebration.
He went away and it was likeanother void in my life.
So I had no father figure again.
You know, I've never met myreal dad at that particular time
.
So Dr Carter left and I had noone to talk to about some of the
(21:43):
dreams and thoughts that wasgoing on through my mind.
So, I was still active in church, still participate in choir,
junior deacon brotherhood,whatever it might have been, and
I had no one to really talk toabout the certain things that
was going on in my mind.
And so, at the age of 17, oneof the church members that knew
(22:06):
I had a great relationship withPastor Carter.
She purchased me a flight to gohead up to Houston Texas, where
my pastor resided at that time,and I went there and in a busy
Houston Texas mall I think itwas the Galleria me and Pastor
(22:26):
Carter was walking through themall and he sat down and he
talked to me and took time totalk to me for about 60 minutes
and I professed my calling topreach to him and he talked to
me and took time to talk to mefor about 60 minutes and I
professed my calling to preachto him and he said to me I
always knew you was called topreach, I just want to wait for
(22:47):
you to tell me, for we can helpkind of develop you.
And so I was still without apastor in Los Angeles, pastor in
Los Angeles.
But Pastor Carter recommended ayoung upcoming preacher by the
name of Nathaniel Haley to bethe next pastor of First Antioch
.
The problem is First Antiochjust took a couple of years to,
you know, call Pastor Haley tobecome the pastor.
(23:10):
But the way things work, when Igot back to Los Angeles as I
stood in front of my house, thatyoung preacher, nathaniel Haley
, saw me in front of my home,stopped, pulled over and said
let's go to lunch.
And there we went to lunch andI was able to tell him he was
(23:32):
associate minister at UnitedChristian at the time.
But I was able to tell him thatI was called to preach and he
said to me he pledged to me thatday that he will help assist me
every step of the way.
And so I had a big brother thento kind of help nourish her and
help structure my life and whenhe was called to become pastor
(23:55):
of the first Antioch church.
A few months later, I preachedmy first sermon under his
leadership.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Wow, amazing story.
Thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
And so are you in school atthis point?
Are you just ministering,working the nine to five?
Five to nine, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So you know my youthfulness, I've always had a
desire to help people, and so myfamily created a nonprofit when
I was 17, 18 years old, makinga Difference Foundation, and so
growing up and serving, you know, I automatically became the
(24:35):
president of this foundation ata young age, 18 years old and,
with that being said, we broughtso many opportunities to our
church, our local church, firstAntioch, pastor Haley, and he
allowed me to be me and so, withthat being said, he allowed me
(24:57):
to just work my magic.
I've always been one thatserved people, and so we brought
in a food program.
We brought in different thingsthat would help cultivate and to
grow our ministry.
I was the youth pastor of FirstAntioch, under his leadership.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
How long before you became youth pastor right away.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I became youth pastor right away, right, and so, you
know, I established my mark atthe church.
You know, young people began tocome in droves and we built one
of the top youth and youngadult programs in Los Angeles,
you know, under his leadership.
And so my, my way of things wasyeah, I worked.
(25:41):
I was in school, southwestCollege.
After I graduated from Locke, Iwent to college and, but I was
always involved in the community, always working.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Played football there .
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I didn't play football.
I retired from football and Ifocused on helping people.
You know, I got some greatopportunities of employment with
the state of California.
I was meeting some uniquepeople through a lot of my
service and it really just.
I was a young activist alwaystrying to fight for people's
(26:13):
social justice and things ofthat matter, man.
So this was something I wasalways born to serve, man.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So this is how you eventually meet connect with
National Action Network, whichis led by Reverend Al Sharpton.
How does that relationship andmarriage take place?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Man.
So in 2004, here in Los Angelesthere was a shooting that took
place where the LAPD SWAT teamshot a little baby.
Her name was Susie Pena.
She was a two-year-old.
She was being held in herfather's arm and the SWAT team
(26:59):
shot and hit Susie Pena and itbecame uproar here in Los
Angeles.
And I was an activist as ayoung man by Dr Carter.
We used to do a lot of protestsup with Hope, down with Dope,
you know.
So I rallied with many of oursenior sages in Los Angeles Dr
(27:20):
Charles Mims, dr PJ Strongs, drJumpin', joe Lee you know these
are young people, that these arepastors that I saw leading
demonstrations in our city.
So I went and I paid my respectto Susie Pinion.
I met an activist who I wouldnever call his name.
(27:40):
I met an activist and he askedme.
He said why don't you come withme?
Let me help mentor you.
And so this activistno-transcript up under his wings
(28:41):
and I'm so grateful, um, thatgod brought him into my life
what was that like?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I mean, did he give you his phone number, his email?
He didn't give me his number.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, he didn't give me an email.
He was kind of that type ofleader where I was going to have
to find my way Right.
And so he invited me to theNational Action Network
Conference and I made my way toNew York City Listen at you made
(29:12):
my way, um, to New York city,listen, and I went there with
you know no uh directions otherthan just to get to this
conference.
And when he saw me at thatconference I guess he realized I
got something here.
This man made his way there andthat's when he, uh, eventually
exchanged numbers with me,that's when he eventually
(29:34):
introduced me to other leaderslike myself from across the
country and that's when, youknow, he kind of pledged his
allegiance to helping to developme.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Well, and when?
At what point do you joinformally the National Action
Network Immediately?
Speaker 3 (29:51):
You know that first conference yeah, man, you know,
reverend Sharpton was a magnet.
I mean seeing the magnitude ofthis conference.
I'm in a place where you knownot too many preachers in Los
Angeles are stepping out andsaying, hey, I want to lead
these marches, I want to leadthese demonstrations around
social justice.
(30:12):
So I didn't really have any.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
No competition per se .
Well, I had no one to reallymentor me.
Mentor got you, yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
You know I had a Chip Murray but our age gap was kind
of out the way you know.
But you know, so Sharpton saidI'll teach you.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I'll show you.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
And right then, and there he pledged his allegiance
to me, and that's when I joinedNational Action Network, that's
when I became a leader inNational Action Network, working
with the local chapter here,which wasn't really fully
developed.
Because, again, you know,there's two Reverend Sharpton's
right, there's the tracksuitcontroversy of Reverend Sharpton
, and then there's the Sharptoncontroversial, reverend sharpton
(30:52):
, and then there's the sharptonthat we all know today.
Yeah, you know, so he wasevolving, you know, at 40, and
so he he allowed me to.
I watched him evolve.
I watched him go from big revto to slim rev, you know what I
mean.
So I watched him evolve.
Yeah, I watched his politicsevolved and so he.
So he took me through thatlesson by simply, you know,
(31:15):
watching and seeing what washappening.
You know, and so I'm gratefulfor that.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Greetings, welcome to another episode of the Nuance
Conversation podcast.
My name is George Hurt.
I am the creator and curator ofthis space.
Thank you so much for tuning into our second season, and I
have again, and sometimes weoveruse the word friend and
(00:49):
certainly we overuse the notionof brother.
But this is a friend and abrother, not just a brother, a
brother beloved, who was kindenough his most tremendous busy
schedule to make time come sitdown with us.
He has a story of overcomingadversity which all of us have
faced, but not always we have toface that with the outside
(01:14):
rumblings trying to make theirposition and their opinions
known and felt.
In that We'll get into that asmuch as he feels comfortable
with it.
But more importantly, he offersus so much from the spiritual
realm, from the social realm asit relates to social justice,
from the political realm andcertainly in his current role,
(01:38):
which soon we'll betransitioning out of, he's
served his faithful terms.
He's submitted to the bylawsand constitutions.
He didn't extend that, whichmany of us would have loved him
to do so.
He is the pastor of thehistorical Willow Street Baptist
Church in Los Angeles,california.
(01:59):
He's homegrown.
He's a Dodgers fan Laker fan.
If it got LA, he down with it,I'm down with it.
Pastor, president, preacher parexcellence, Dr KW Tulis.
How are you doing, sir?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Man, I'm doing good.
George, I'm just so happy to behere.
I'm excited about all thatyou're doing.
I appreciate that introductionman.
I'm going to take you allacross the world with me,
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And have you introduce me Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I want to say thank you, man, for having me on this
gracious platform a platformthat is growing, a platform that
means a lot to our communitybecause, just seeing the
transparency that you bring outof people, it's a platform that
I love, that I'm honored to be apart of man appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
We got to swear you in.
That's what we have to do toeverybody that come here.
So you got to swear, to be open, to be honest, to be
transparent, to be intelligentin a nuanced conversation.
Podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Man, I do yes, yes, we got to.
I'm used to saying that I doyes, we got to Listen.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
This is a space that's meant to operate in the
gray, not the black and white,to be nuanced.
That's the name.
We're comfortable with blackand white.
We're comfortable.
This is wrong, this is right.
But sometimes, and most timesin life, the groove is in the
middle.
Um, and as it relates to thatum, that's from religion to
(03:27):
social norms, pop culture, umand politics.
You can speak to all of that umin so many ways, on so many
levels.
But before we dig into anynuance as it relates to those
two categories, how are youdoing today?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Man, I'm doing good man, in the words of one of them
famous songwriters.
I don't look like what I'vebeen through, you know, and so
I'm thankful.
I'm grateful, but I'm thankfulthat God, through it all, has
brought me closer and closer tohim.
So I'm a work in progress.
I still got my smile and I'mlooking forward to the greater
(04:05):
works that God has in store.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
What have you been?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
through man.
You know been through a lifeLife be, life.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Life be life.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That's what they say Life be life.
And so in my time here on earthof understanding that my life,
even from birth, was birththrough struggle, meaning that,
you know, I was raised by a 16year old single mother here in
(04:33):
Los Angeles trying to.
That's 1977.
Born in Compton, Raised inSouth Los Angeles to a mother
who all she wanted was to haveher son to, you know, just be a
(04:53):
strong and productive young man,A mother that taught me how to
be independent at a young age,being raised in South Los
Angeles, going through thestruggles of just hoping I can
get to and from school.
I went to a high school calledLocke High School in Los Angeles
and most people say there'snothing good coming from that
(05:16):
neighborhood.
You know I pushed a life thatyou know was I try to live a
life that was pleasing to Godand pleasing to the community.
So I've had the best of allworlds in life.
You know.
(05:36):
So when I talk about struggles,struggles started with me from
a young age, from high school,to where I am now, from a young
age, from high school to where Iam now and, as I said, through
it all you know, God hasliterally brought me to this
place and I still got my smile.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, well, let's get into that.
When your mom had you at 16, isshe still in high school?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
My mother's still in high school, single mother.
She was visiting an army base,visiting her sister, and got
pregnant in Killeen Texas andshe moved on back to California
and she recognized she waspregnant with a young boy and
(06:20):
she, like I said, when she gavebirth to me she had a great,
strong community, had awonderful grandmother, wonderful
aunties, and they raised me inCompton, California.
So, with that being said, youknow I've seen struggle, you
know.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So she was 16.
She's still living with yourgrandma, and she was a kid.
She's still in with yourgrandma and she was a kid.
She's still in high school theysay babies raising babies, you
know so that she communicateback to her sister this news, or
she didn't say nothing?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
No, my, you know it's funny.
Um, fast forwarding.
I was a child being raised by astrong, uh, a strong woman, and
she felt she can do it all byherself.
Oh well, you know, so she, youknow.
Only thing I knew of my dad washis name.
Only thing I knew of my dad washe lived in Texas, somewhere,
(07:19):
somewhere, and so, but she wentinto life doing it all by
herself.
Um, so, but she went into lifedoing it all by herself, and um,
through that, I've seen thestruggles of, of, of a single
mom trying to make the best forher children, and through that,
you know life, as I say, belifing and at the end of the day
(07:39):
, um, here I am today.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
What, um?
I'm actually questioning aboutthe progression there, but also
that experience in yourbackground and knowing the
bravery and courage of your momand thus not just having you but
developing you does that in anyway feed your perspective on
the hot topic debate todaythat's labeled as pro-life and
(08:05):
pro-choice?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
A hundred percent, you know it doesn't fuel.
I believe, you know, in thewoman's right to choose, even as
a preacher, as a pastor, asprogressive as that might sound
in the minds of some theologians, I believe that God gives us
all the ability to choice, tohave choice, and I'm thankful
(08:27):
that my mother chose to, youknow, keep me a young man, when
I'm sure it was all forms ofways, from adoptions to abortion
, that she could have dealt withthe situation.
But she chose to jump in andsay, hey, I'm going to raise
this young man to be aproductive and honest person in
the community.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, that's.
That's interesting that youwould have that based off of not
even making an assessment on itin this point in the
conversation, but just from yourbackground, to still have that
for those who are of alike-minded position.
I hope they would appreciatethat coming from your experience
(09:10):
.
So you're growing up.
Where does church enter intothis shaping of yourself in
those early years?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, that's a good question, because you know,
growing up my mother, she wantedthe best for me and so she
exposed me to private schoolsfrom all across the city of LA,
and so I really met Christ realyoung, and I was raised in a
household that loved Christ.
(09:41):
We didn't go to church but, youknow, we love Christ.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Through schools Through schools, through schools
Through schools, yeah, throughthese Catholic schools, Through
these Episcopal schools.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Catholic schools Episcopal schools.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
okay, I've learned about Christ, you know so.
I always knew in my spirit,from the age of five to ten,
whenever my mother stopped beingable to afford to pay for my
private private school.
I learned about Christ, and soso she's 22 at this point.
(10:13):
She's about 22.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, go to private school.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Paying for me to get there, and you know I come.
I was raised on a street in LosAngeles 92nd street, so 92nd
and Avalon and the way Christbecame real to me was it was
some missionaries walking downthe middle of the hood, seeing
some young black man playingbasketball, coming in and
(10:39):
engaging with us, and theyinvited us to the church down
the street from our home, whichwas South Los Angeles Baptist
Church, a very familiar churchAt that time.
The pastor was Pastor CurtisMorris, and so they invited me
to church.
I went to church, I learned alittle bit more about Jesus and
I found something very specialat church, pastor Hurt, I found
(11:02):
donuts.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
My.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
God Donuts during the Sunday school.
Man and those Sunday schooldonuts drove me to church week
in and week out.
I just wanted to get a donut.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You wanted to get a donut.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
A donut every week, you ended up getting the bread
of life, not the bread of life.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
I wanted a donut.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You started with the bread Human bread.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And so you know, particularly at a time when I
was 13, my mother experiencedwhat was rapid in our community.
She was a drug addict and oneparticular day, me and my
siblings was at home.
(11:42):
My mother said we're going tohave.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Siblings, so you've had.
I going to have siblings, soyou've had.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I've had two siblings .
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So you were first, I was the first.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
And then my mother got remarried and she had three,
three different children, butat this time it was only two of
us Got you and so she gotmarried.
She got married.
Well, she, she, eventually itwas a.
It was a community Mary,meaning that he was my stepdad
and he wasn't my stepdad, if youknow what I mean.
So, long story short, I'm 13.
(12:14):
The social worker came to ourhome and said to me and my
little brother at the time, I'mhere to put you all in foster
care.
And me and my brother looked ateach other and said you're
going to put us in foster carefor what?
And they said well, your motherhas a drug problem, matter of
fact, she said she didn't saythat.
(12:36):
She said your mother's a crackhead and she's tested positive
for drugs.
And I'm here to take you outthis home because your mother
can't take care of you.
And I remember crying with mybrother, we holding each other.
You're not gonna separate usfrom each other.
And um, her mother was crying,you know, because she was like
(12:59):
looking.
She said but I'm gonna giveyour mama one chance and, uh, if
she can get herself together,um, you all can stay in this
environment, but she has to showthe work in progress.
Me knowing the devastation ofdrugs in our community, I just
(13:19):
knew that, uh, it was no hope.
I just knew me and my brotherwas going into a foster home.
But I remember going to churchfor donuts, the glazed donuts
and I remember a pastor by thename of Pastor Morris preaching
a sermon about going into yoursecret closet and praying.
And so that night I said I'mgoing to give it a shot.
(13:40):
That night I remember goinginto my secret closet, praying
and I said to the Lord I said ifyou just help my mother one
time, I promise you I'll serveyou till I die.
This is 13 years old and, justto fast forward my sad story,
(14:01):
I've been serving God ever sinceGod delivered my mother from
crack cocaine.
God delivered my mother fromcrack cocaine.
My mother went back to ourchildhood church, the first
Antioch Missionary BaptistChurch in Los Angeles, and she
literally gave her life toChrist and she took her children
to church with her.
(14:22):
And that's when I saw the powerof the church, the power of the
church community, how they lovemy mother despite her
challenges that she had.
She had a pastor that loved her, she had members that rallied
around her and I saw the powerof the church community and I've
(14:46):
been raised.
I've been in church ever sinceand here it is, 34 years later.
My mother has been clean fromcrack cocaine.
Copy praise.
She's preaching in the pulpit.
She serves at my church andthis is the testimony.
Her testimony became mytestimony because her testimony
(15:09):
brought me closer to God.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
What are?
What are other things thatyou're struggling with, even in
light of being connected to thechurch, dealing with this
reality of the stigmatizationand you know we're the same age
in our community of you know,you know, I mean kids could be
yeah, as relates to that.
Um, what are the things thatyou're yet struggling with in
(15:34):
this point?
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Well, I mean, when we think about the uh, our
communities as a whole, there'sso many different things um that
our community, our faithcommunity, is struggling with
and ultimately, at the end ofthe day, I believe we're not.
We're living in a time wherethis is not grandma church, you
know, and so what individualsare looking for is leaders and
(16:03):
pastors who are transparent, whocan relate to many of the
struggles.
I mean, you're dealing with anew wave of alcoholism, drug
abuse.
We're living in a societythat's not kind to the church,
and so, ultimately, I believeit's up to us as leaders, as
(16:29):
leaders within our community, tocontinue to lead that charge
and let people know that Jesusis the way he is, the truth, is
the light.
But I believe a lot of timespeople are looking at our lives
for that and because of that,many times we become targets of
the cultures of this world.
(16:49):
If it's the council culture,whatever it might be, trying to
stigmatize the church is notbeing relevant today,
transparent and being atransparent leader in days and
times, and letting individualsknow that you know when you're
(17:11):
standing for something you knowyou're going to automatically be
a target for you know of, of,of good and bad.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
I appreciate you saying that, but I think my
question was like, still at thepoint of you being 13 and having
all of these triumphant momentsin your life, through what your
mom has overcome, you as afamily unit has overcome, got it
how First Antioch played a roleStill looking at you in your
(17:41):
early teens there Got it.
What are the things that you'reyet struggling with at that
point?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Man, I'm struggling with my identity.
You know, I don't know if Iwant to be a gangster in my
community or if I want to, youknow, be this church boy that
goes to church faithfully everySunday, who the pastor look out
in the audience and out of allthe young people he picks me to
be his armor bearer, Wowaudience.
(18:06):
And out of all the young peoplehe picks me to be his armor
bearer, Wow.
So I get to walk around andcarry my pastor briefcase.
And my pastor in my early dayswas a little fat, flashy, he
drove around in a limousine.
So I used to go to around myneighborhood in a limousine, you
know, because my pastor ruledlike that, you know.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Elsie Carter.
Yeah, your pastor was LC.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Carter.
Yeah, his name was Dr LC Carter.
He's probably the mostinfluential man that I that I
met at that time.
I mean he showed me theimportance of being godly
through your works being godlythrough your works.
Individuals loved him becausehe was pure, he was transparent.
(18:50):
He'll walk out and run aroundthe neighborhood with no shoes,
talking to people.
He taught me how to be anactivist.
A lot of people think you knowSharpton and all these people.
No, lc Carter taught me as ayoung man.
So I was in that identity stage13, 14.
(19:11):
But the church won.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Wow.
So when did you make thetransition in your mind to like
hey, I'm not a thug, I'm not agangbanger, I'm not a drug
dealer, none of these things.
I'm set on the path for Christ.
I know you say that PastorCarter played a great role in it
(19:34):
.
Well, I guess a better questionwould be in what was the next
step in that evolution, yourarmor bearer?
What was the next step?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Armor bearer, football player at Locke High
School.
You know D-tackle offensiveline.
You know trying to find myself,minister of defense of the
football field.
Pray before every football game.
You know, so trying to findmyself.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Minister of defense is not an athletic term, it's
that you were the spiritual likechaplain of the team.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I was a spiritual chaplain of the team.
I prayed every game you knowplayed on the field.
Reggie White, minister ofdefense.
Get it Reggie White, yeah, yeahyeah, no, I just play, but oh
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
But you are not a minister at this point.
No, I'll just play, but you arenot a minister at this point.
No, no, no, no, okay, okay,nowhere near, that's what.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I was trying to clarify.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, no, I was not a minister at that time.
I was just a young dude atchurch.
You know, going to church everyweek had a responsibility to
carry my pastor briefcase.
That was my job.
Watch my pastor, you know.
Carry his robe, you know.
Whatever it was, I found thatto be a job that you know.
(20:50):
God put me in.
You know when did you startpreaching and fast forward?
I started preaching at the ageof 18.
My pastor retired, elsie Carterand so when he retired it left
a void in my life because thatfather figure that I developed
and you know that came into mylife.
(21:11):
He retired, he retired.
He retired at a young age andmoved to Houston, texas, to do
what?
To retire Just retire.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
He retired from preaching.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
He was in his 60s.
Okay, you know, he wanted to goback home to Texas.
So him and his family retired.
We had a big celebration.
He went away and it was likeanother void in my life.
So I had no father figure again.
You know, I've never met myreal dad at that particular time
.
So Dr Carter left and I had noone to talk to about some of the
(21:43):
dreams and thoughts that wasgoing on through my mind.
So, I was still active in church, still participate in choir,
junior deacon brotherhood,whatever it might have been, and
I had no one to really talk toabout the certain things that
was going on in my mind.
And so, at the age of 17, oneof the church members that knew
(22:06):
I had a great relationship withPastor Carter.
She purchased me a flight to gohead up to Houston Texas, where
my pastor resided at that time,and I went there and in a busy
Houston Texas mall I think itwas the Galleria me and Pastor
(22:26):
Carter was walking through themall and he sat down and he
talked to me and took time totalk to me for about 60 minutes
and I professed my calling topreach to him and he talked to
me and took time to talk to mefor about 60 minutes and I
professed my calling to preachto him and he said to me I
always knew you was called topreach, I just want to wait for
(22:47):
you to tell me, for we can helpkind of develop you.
And so I was still without apastor in Los Angeles, pastor in
Los Angeles.
But Pastor Carter recommended ayoung upcoming preacher by the
name of Nathaniel Haley to bethe next pastor of First Antioch
.
The problem is First Antiochjust took a couple of years to,
you know, call Pastor Haley tobecome the pastor.
(23:10):
But the way things work, when Igot back to Los Angeles as I
stood in front of my house, thatyoung preacher, nathaniel Haley
, saw me in front of my home,stopped, pulled over and said
let's go to lunch.
And there we went to lunch andI was able to tell him he was
(23:32):
associate minister at UnitedChristian at the time.
But I was able to tell him thatI was called to preach and he
said to me he pledged to me thatday that he will help assist me
every step of the way.
And so I had a big brother thento kind of help nourish her and
help structure my life and whenhe was called to become pastor
(23:55):
of the first Antioch church.
A few months later, I preachedmy first sermon under his
leadership.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Wow, amazing story.
Thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
And so are you in school atthis point?
Are you just ministering,working the nine to five?
Five to nine, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So you know my youthfulness, I've always had a
desire to help people, and so myfamily created a nonprofit when
I was 17, 18 years old, makinga Difference Foundation, and so
growing up and serving, you know, I automatically became the
(24:35):
president of this foundation ata young age, 18 years old and,
with that being said, we broughtso many opportunities to our
church, our local church, firstAntioch, pastor Haley, and he
allowed me to be me and so, withthat being said, he allowed me
(24:57):
to just work my magic.
I've always been one thatserved people, and so we brought
in a food program.
We brought in different thingsthat would help cultivate and to
grow our ministry.
I was the youth pastor of FirstAntioch, under his leadership.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
How long before you became youth pastor right away.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I became youth pastor right away, right, and so, you
know, I established my mark atthe church.
You know, young people began tocome in droves and we built one
of the top youth and youngadult programs in Los Angeles,
you know, under his leadership.
And so my, my way of things wasyeah, I worked.
(25:41):
I was in school, southwestCollege.
After I graduated from Locke, Iwent to college and, but I was
always involved in the community, always working.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Played football there .
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I didn't play football.
I retired from football and Ifocused on helping people.
You know, I got some greatopportunities of employment with
the state of California.
I was meeting some uniquepeople through a lot of my
service and it really just.
I was a young activist alwaystrying to fight for people's
(26:13):
social justice and things ofthat matter, man.
So this was something I wasalways born to serve, man.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So this is how you eventually meet connect with
National Action Network, whichis led by Reverend Al Sharpton.
How does that relationship andmarriage take place?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Man.
So in 2004, here in Los Angelesthere was a shooting that took
place where the LAPD SWAT teamshot a little baby.
Her name was Susie Pena.
She was a two-year-old.
She was being held in herfather's arm and the SWAT team
(26:59):
shot and hit Susie Pena and itbecame uproar here in Los
Angeles.
And I was an activist as ayoung man by Dr Carter.
We used to do a lot of protestsup with Hope, down with Dope,
you know.
So I rallied with many of oursenior sages in Los Angeles Dr
(27:20):
Charles Mims, dr PJ Strongs, drJumpin', joe Lee you know these
are young people, that these arepastors that I saw leading
demonstrations in our city.
So I went and I paid my respectto Susie Pinion.
I met an activist who I wouldnever call his name.
(27:40):
I met an activist and he askedme.
He said why don't you come withme?
Let me help mentor you.
And so this activistno-transcript up under his wings
(28:41):
and I'm so grateful, um, thatgod brought him into my life
what was that like?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I mean, did he give you his phone number, his email?
He didn't give me his number.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, he didn't give me an email.
He was kind of that type ofleader where I was going to have
to find my way Right.
And so he invited me to theNational Action Network
Conference and I made my way toNew York City Listen at you made
(29:12):
my way, um, to New York city,listen, and I went there with
you know no uh directions otherthan just to get to this
conference.
And when he saw me at thatconference I guess he realized I
got something here.
This man made his way there andthat's when he, uh, eventually
exchanged numbers with me,that's when he eventually
(29:34):
introduced me to other leaderslike myself from across the
country and that's when, youknow, he kind of pledged his
allegiance to helping to developme.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Well, and when?
At what point do you joinformally the National Action
Network Immediately?
Speaker 3 (29:51):
You know that first conference yeah, man, you know,
reverend Sharpton was a magnet.
I mean seeing the magnitude ofthis conference.
I'm in a place where you knownot too many preachers in Los
Angeles are stepping out andsaying, hey, I want to lead
these marches, I want to leadthese demonstrations around
social justice.
(30:12):
So I didn't really have any.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
No competition per se .
Well, I had no one to reallymentor me.
Mentor got you, yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
You know I had a Chip Murray but our age gap was kind
of out the way you know.
But you know, so Sharpton saidI'll teach you.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I'll show you.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
And right then, and there he pledged his allegiance
to me, and that's when I joinedNational Action Network, that's
when I became a leader inNational Action Network, working
with the local chapter here,which wasn't really fully
developed.
Because, again, you know,there's two Reverend Sharpton's
right, there's the tracksuitcontroversy of Reverend Sharpton
, and then there's the Sharptoncontroversial, reverend sharpton
(30:52):
, and then there's the sharptonthat we all know today.
Yeah, you know, so he wasevolving, you know, at 40, and
so he he allowed me to.
I watched him evolve.
I watched him go from big revto to slim rev, you know what I
mean.
So I watched him evolve.
Yeah, I watched his politicsevolved and so he.
So he took me through thatlesson by simply, you know,
(31:15):
watching and seeing what washappening.
You know, and so I'm gratefulfor that.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time.
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