May 1, 2025 • 34 mins
Pastor KW takes us behind his public persona in this remarkably vulnerable conversation about the tensions between ministry success and personal struggles. As we journey from his meteoric rise at National Action Network to becoming pastor of a struggling church in Boyle Heights, KW reveals how the expectations of church culture influenced his decision to marry young—"We were babies raising babies"—and the painful aftermath of two divorces while maintaining public leadership.
What emerges is a powerful testimony about growth and healing amid life's storms. KW speaks directly to his younger self with striking clarity: "Slow down. You don't have to get married because you have a baby on the way. Don't allow the whispers of people in the church push you to make decisions you shouldn't make." This wisdom comes from hard-earned experience navigating the unique pressures facing successful Black men in ministry and activism.
The conversation takes a transformative turn when KW discusses how his second marriage "pushed me to therapy," which became instrumental in his healing journey. His powerful declaration—"I thank God for Jesus and I thank God for my therapist"—challenges stigmas around mental health in faith communities. He distinguishes between "fake degree therapists" and trained professionals who helped him "unmask and unpack" his situations, advocating that "everybody should have a therapist."
Through candid reflections on mistakes, growth, and finding authentic strength, KW models a path toward greater transparency among leaders: "We're living in a society that's kind of fake and phony... we need to start being real with each other." His journey reminds us that behind every public success story lies a complex human experience worthy of compassion, understanding, and honest dialogue. Subscribe to hear more conversations that explore the nuance of faith and leadership in today's complex world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So you eventually rise all the way up to regional
coordinator for the West Coast.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
When does, how, does how is preaching marrying itself
at this point with you?
And when does the WillardStreet journey enter in?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, so you know, I rise to the Western Regional
Director, I start member, Ibecome president of LA, I become
Western Regional Director andwe built the greatest chapter in
National Action Network history.
You know, I was chapter of theyear, I was leader of the year
(01:12):
throughout this organization.
We have over 100 chaptersaround the world, you know, and
so at the end of the day, I wasdoing the work, I mean I was
even, you know, in theconversation of who's going to
replace Reverend Sharpton.
I mean, people write articlesand they insert my name.
Reverend Tulis will possibly beone of the next leader
(01:33):
nationally.
So, with that being said,ministry never stopped, because
I started preaching at 18, stillpreaching, still youth
pastoring, still servingfaithfully at the First Antioch
Missionary Baptist Church, stillhave the foundation.
Still have the foundation Firstto get there at church, last to
(01:53):
leave Every Sunday.
I found it a pleasure to servePastor Haley and, you know,
ultimately things always was inplace.
My civil rights journey wasliterally part of my ministry.
I felt that was ministry and in2007, because of some of the
(02:14):
demonstrations that I wasleading around the city, a
police officer that was achairman on the board of a
church, they reached out to methrough another preacher named
Donald Wilson and they said doyou think this guy, uh, would
want to lead a church here inBoyle Heights?
(02:34):
You know, and I was, like BoyleHeights is where.
And it's the.
It's a region of Los Angeles,is adjacent to downtown Uh, and
99% of the residents don't speakEnglish.
So they asked that I want tolead this historic church in
(02:57):
Boyle Heights, and so I wasintrigued, you know, and you
know, I submitted my resume, Iwent to preach a couple of times
and then finally, as I wassitting there with my pastor, I
get a call from one of thetrustee members saying we've
elected you pastor of the WellerStreet Missionary Baptist
(03:17):
Church.
Can you start next week?
And I'm like next week you know,I got youth events and youth
programs going on.
You know, I enjoy being theassistant pastor of First
Antioch Missionary BaptistChurch, my pastor right here.
I enjoyed that, you know.
I didn't think about you know,pastoring and leading a
(03:40):
congregation.
And so my pastor looked at meand said you should be excited.
But I wasn't.
And I was like you know, Iwasn't, I was just trying it out
.
Uh, I've never candidated for achurch before, I'm just trying
it out.
I'm 29 years old, you know,almost 30, um no, just turned 30
(04:00):
.
Uh, and he said well, you oughtto go check it out.
You know they called you to thechurch, come check it out.
So I get to the Weller streetmissionary Baptist church, uh,
in um 2007, I believe, um 17years ago, and um, my first
Sunday there it was four people,not four people to greet me,
(04:24):
but literally four people inchurch.
I'm like Lord, you ain't callme over here to preach the four
people.
You know what are you doing.
You got well, you know, at theend of the day, you know this
was 2006.
I'm thankful for that call tothat church and I had
(04:49):
reservations.
I didn't tell nobody.
Only person that knew was myfirst wife.
She knew I was called to achurch.
I didn't tell my mama.
I didn't tell anybody that I'mcalled to this church because I
just like I don't see myselfgoing to Boyle Heights to grow
or lead no church.
And so that's where I foundmyself and I'm thankful that I.
(05:13):
You know that God put me there.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And how was that experience for you?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
That experience has been an amazing experience
because, as I say, I got thereas four people.
That was literally in thechurch.
And when I get there, you knowthis is 2006, 2007,.
You know that word seven, thatnew beginning.
So I marketed the service as aservice of new beginning, a
(05:41):
service of a new opportunity toreally push forward and to do
things in that manner.
And I really took advantage ofthat first Sunday at 1-1-0-7.
And ultimately, you know that'swhen that church started to
grow.
Friends and people start goingand it's nothing like ministry,
I mean, it's something that youknow, it's like.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
you know that's something that we You're doing
this with National AcademicNetwork.
You're doing this as afoundation.
You've been faithful to yourchurch.
You pastored a church that mostpeople would not even consider,
you didn't want to consider.
You've done all these thingsfor the Lord.
Surely your life has no issues,no problems and no troubles,
man please.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
What'd you say?
The more, the more things youdo, the more problems you have,
you know.
So, in that, you know it's been17 years I've been at the
church.
Okay, you know I've beenthrough two divorces.
You know, within the realm ofmy life I've been.
You know I've had good days andbad days being an activist.
(06:45):
You know you have a lot ofpeople shooting for you, a lot
of people shooting at you, a lotof people trying to what?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
does that look like?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I mean it looks like just it's, it's to me a service,
but to them, is them trying totrip you up, mm-hmm, them trying
to slow you down?
Maybe I, I make it lookglamorous, but life is not easy.
As I said at the beginning, youknow my smile, you see my smile
, but my story and my journeyhas not been easy.
(07:16):
But I mean the Bible tell youthat.
I mean life is not designed tobe easy.
Life is not designed to be easy.
And so, with that, be sayinglife, be lifing, raising
children, marriage.
Marriages are failing.
You know bullets.
You become targets, you becomean influential person in the
(07:38):
community and people will beginto just start making stuff up,
hoping it will stick on you, onthe preacher, on the preacher,
really, you know, on thepreacher, and I knew you was
like them over there, you know.
But at the end of the day,god's word is true, you know,
he'll make your enemies yourfootstool, he'll place his
(07:59):
covering over you and he'll seeyou through.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think about this personally and I wonder what you
think, how much you would share, as it relates to that being
intensely involved in so manythings is meaningful, especially
as a young age Mine is not asmany accolades as yours, but
definitely at a young age,connected to the church,
(08:27):
connected involvement, thatthere there are spots or holes.
That has not been developed asa man, which makes problems for
me, relationship wise, for youmarriage wise, and people see
that and they will take thatflaw and try to use it against
(08:54):
you, a flaw that you alreadyfully aware of.
Yeah, um, opposed to comingalongside and saying, hey,
here's how I also did this, thisis how I struggled, here's how
I did this, I did that.
This is your space, um, as muchas you feel comfortable when
you look back, um at it, back atit, what and how you know your
(09:24):
mom is a triumphant story, butstill nobody still sees the
cracks that can be developed inthis story.
And I guess also goes back tothe question about the church,
about you know what was yourstruggles.
You have this mentorship butstill, at least for me, it's
never been to the point of, hey,you know when a woman starts
(09:47):
yelling or doing this.
Of course you're not beingphysical, of course we're not
going back and forth with names,but how do you process the
patience, the forgiveness, theinvolvement, the leadership to
say, hey, let's have thisconversation?
B?
Whatever the case may be foryou?
What does that look like?
(10:08):
What does that mean to you?
Does any of this even makesense?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
It makes a lot of sense.
You know, I got married myfirst time at the age of 22.
I was real young, she was young, and if we was to be honest, me
and my wife my first wife we'regood friends today.
She still remembers my churchand we're raising three amazing
(10:32):
children.
We was young, you know, and we,we messed up along the journey.
You know what I mean.
And and with that being said,but we, we, we birthed three
amazing children, and so, youknow, co-parenting and loving
each other and I mean showingthat love to our kids was
(10:57):
important.
But we got, we got married realyoung, too young, and a lot of
that had to do with the church.
You know, I'm I'm a minister, Ishouldn't be shacking up, I
shouldn't be living with someonethat you're not married to,
Shouldn't be having sex,shouldn't be having children.
So a lot of that had to do withthat, you know.
(11:19):
And so, with that being said,we were babies, raising babies,
you know.
And so, through that, you know,19 years was marriage that we
just couldn't hold on to.
We were both through with it,and so we both divorced, but we
still had three amazing kidsthat we had to really co-parent
(11:41):
with.
And so, ultimately, when Ithink about you know just some
of the nuances of life.
You know sometimes, you knowstruggles will push you into
areas to whereas you are, youbecome targets or you become.
You know, and we live in a timeof social media you know, and
(12:04):
we have social media.
We have to live to a certainstandard.
Through social media, peoplesee your life, your happy life,
they see the good times, theydon't see the bad times.
And so you're dealing with somany different struggles, so
many different situations and,at the end of the day, when we
(12:25):
put it all on paper, you know wehave struggles, man, and so,
you know, I had a lot of issuesin my life, after divorcing for
the first time to my first wife,that I had to deal with, and a
(12:45):
lot of those struggles, did youdeal with them?
I did not deal with them.
You know, I felt that divorcingwas dealing with it, you know,
and sometimes, when you're in asituation, I I won't tell people
all the time drama, our traumaattracts drama, you know, and,
(13:06):
um, it pushed me into anothermarriage right away, like
immediately, my friend, what areyou doing?
Uh, what?
What is it that?
Why, why are you doing this?
Because I was trying to cover alot of the pains of, you know,
from from.
So, with that being said, um,with life and with struggles,
(13:41):
you know, sometimes we can tryto mask our, our pains and our
situations and our struggles, um, by, you know, moving to other
venues, which is not a goodthing.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah.
So I guess, just for clarity,we would agree shocking is wrong
, but we never have a discussionon how to flesh out that in
light of biological realities,emotional realities, social
realities and things of thatnature.
As a pastor, let's say you're apastor in the 22 year old, you,
(14:35):
the 21 year old, you who'sthinking about these things,
who's progressing, you are thepastor of young.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
KW.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
What are you saying to young KW in light of what you
know?
Now, at this 21 years of age,doing all these great things?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
What I'm saying to young KW is slow down.
I'm saying to him you don'thave to get married because you
have a baby on the way.
I'm saying to him take yourtime, figure out life, pray a
lot more, get more into yourword, you know, um, get more
(15:35):
into your word, you know, don'tallow the whispers of people of
the church can push you to apoint where you'll make
decisions that you shouldn'tmake.
Are you a regret down the line?
I'm telling young KW take careof your responsibilities.
You don't have to marry justbecause you know you've been
(16:00):
intimate and you have a baby onthe way.
I'm saying that to young KW.
And I'm saying to young KW youknow, take care of everything
you're supposed to take care of.
Be the man that you are, butslow down and you can't perfect
everything.
You're trying to do kind of.
You know, take your time andtrying to figure out this thing
(16:20):
called life.
That's what I'm telling you,okay, w?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
what, what?
Yeah, you gave them a lot ofgood advice as it relates to
going into your second marriageafter coming out of your first
marriage.
What do you think there youwould have said to yourself, or
(16:49):
advice that you would have givenat that point?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I'm saying to that KW take your time.
I'm saying to that KW the otherone was to take his time.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I'm saying to that KW the other one was to take his
time, yeah, but I'm saying, slowup a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
You know I'm saying I'm pulling this coat tail.
Like you know, you don't haveto be married to pastor a church
.
You know I don't want to say myfirst marriage was a failure,
but it ended in a divorce.
I felt that I can do.
It ended in a divorce.
I felt that I can do it, I'm aloving dude.
I felt that I can be a goodhusband.
But I'm telling that, kw, itdon't matter how much you love
(17:29):
her or how much you're going todo right in this marriage,
trouble, don't discriminate.
And trauma attracts trauma.
And so I'm saying take yourtime in entering that process.
Look at the red flags.
Are there any red flags?
(17:51):
Are you overlooking those redflags?
Because, kw, you got a bigheart and you feel that you can
love anybody.
And as long as you love, youfeel that as long as you love
that person, that person isgoing to eventually develop that
same love you have in yourheart.
That's not true, you know.
(18:12):
So I'm telling that KW, takeyour time.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
KW, take your time.
I haven't heard in thoseconversations though, the role
of the church I know you're thepastor and you're saying this,
but I know I asked it that wayas it relates to also the other
conglomerates that is making upthe spear of our social
influence.
So I guess, being to be fair,being your brother and familiar
(18:46):
with some of the things you wentthrough and how other peers
that may have been able toadvocate in the way that brought
about amending the situation,reconciliation is not always
possible, but there is thisthing called forgiveness, and
also making sure that there is,or restoration is not always
(19:09):
possible, but reconciliation andforgiveness is something In
those reverse orders.
Forgiveness and reconciliationis something that can happen
when there are influences thatare doing that.
And I know you've receivedwritings, I know you've received
perspectives.
I've never heard you, um, Inever heard you suggest
(19:33):
perfection, even in thisconversation here.
Maybe if I I was an ear in yourear, like, don't say that don't
say that.
But you have, you've beenstraightforward with that.
Just looking back at, is therehurt?
There Is there.
(19:53):
Have there been bridges to haveconversations to deal with that
level of hurt and betrayal ofthings?
Again, not in the standpoint ofyou've just done everything,
right, right right, right, right, but just how do we, if we want
to and feel the need tointervene and be in a situation,
(20:15):
how do we do that in a way thatis pro healing?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So you know, in the midst of everything that I went
through, it's no secret that mysecond marriage was just
horrible.
You know, from the start to theend and I say this to you,
pastor that, pastor, hurt, loveis real.
(20:42):
When you love somebody, youdon't want to do no harm to no
one.
You know you don't want to sayno harm about anything.
The best thing about thatmarriage is it pushed me to
therapy, you know.
It pushed me to want to bettermyself.
And so in the midst of therapy,in the midst of me healing from
(21:05):
this you know, second marriagefailing I found myself healing
from a whole lot of other stuff.
You know, from a whole lot ofother stuff.
You know, from a whole lot ofother challenges that I faced in
life.
This is only just a smit ofwhat some of the things that
I've been through you know.
So therapy has helped me toheal and to see things from a
(21:31):
whole different level.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
What does that mean?
What does that, what does itmean?
To go to therapy?
Is it you know, you Google it?
No, it means you know.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
So in my second marriage I hate saying first and
second, I don't think thesecond one count, but it did.
But at the end of the day, atthe end of the day, as I went
through this healing journey, itmeans finding a real therapist.
You know, one of the thingsthat I did in my second marriage
(22:03):
is we went through familytherapy together, trying to heal
through the process.
But these was not realcounselors.
These were individuals that gota degree on the internet, you
know, that said a lot of goodthings.
That was very easily tomanipulate.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
This is not pre-marriage, this is during
marriage.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Pre-marriage and during marriage we went through
these same counselors and so Iimmediately recognized that.
You know these individualswanted your money.
You know they wanted to justsit there and hear you and you
send them your money.
But when I found a realtherapist through my medical
(22:47):
provider, you know that I seenthe difference between what were
some of the differences.
One again a real therapist is aperson that allows you to see
yourself.
It's not putting their owninput and things of that matter,
(23:09):
but allow you to try to figureit out within yourself, you to
try to figure it out withinyourself.
The other therapist, again,like I say, I can tell that
therapist X, y and Z and they'lltake X, y and Z and throw it at
this person and push you in adirection that you don't have to
be pushed within, you know.
(23:30):
So at the end of the day, youknow there's a difference
between these fake degreetherapists and a real, bona fide
, trained therapist to kind ofhelp you to unmask and unpack
some of the situations thatyou're going through.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, I guess for me, and helpful that would be
helpful to the audience as well.
Is you know what?
Not specifics, unless you wantspecifics.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Right, right, right right?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
What, like if you were?
If God would lead you to getmarried again, what would you be
able to say to that person asyou court them or date them?
That you worked on that nowmakes you suitable as a husband,
because you know, people arepeople are.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
People are judgmental to you, whatever level you're
at Right right right.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
So if you've been married before or you for me,
you've never been married beforeyou know it's always the lenses
of negativity.
So I'm not trying to cushionthat or promote that way of
thinking towards other people.
We have enough hurt on our ownweaknesses internally.
We don't need those thingsexternally.
(24:57):
Yeah, but I mean just, you knowyou're at, you know one of
these five-star restaurants yougo to all the time uh, you may
be on a yacht or something likethat, it's just a joke like that
, because somebody like I toldyou I had a yacht, but you're
out.
You know you're a Chick-fil-A,whatever.
And hey, the reason why I'm aperson that you can court is
(25:27):
because, in light of my pastyeah, in light of- my past is
because I'm a loving dude.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, in light of my past, is because I'm a loving
dude.
I'm that same loving dude thathas, for the final time, uh,
again, you know, and ultimately,you know, I believe that God
has um, someone that's there, um, that's going to love me,
that's going to support me,that's going to pray for me and
(26:13):
that's um going to be, um,that's going to be that soulmate
that we can just change theworld.
And you know, going into that,I recognize that how much of a
great catch I am.
And so, with that being said,you know, that's one of the
benefits of therapy.
I didn't allow the name.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
So you're telling this person you're a great catch
.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Well, that person- knew I'm a great catch.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Because, I'm a you know, man listen.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
You know, I always say actions speak louder than
words, right?
Absolutely and so at the end ofthe day, you know, I know who I
am and I know what I bring tothe table.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is you know
what are you trying?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
to ask me George.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I guess, if I was speaking for you, I would say
I'm a person that learned frommy mistakes, but not just
learned from my mistakes, andthat's why I said as specific as
you want to be yeah, mistakes.
(27:18):
And and that's why I said asspecific as you want to be yeah,
um, growing up and not havingthat father figure yeah, that I
got mentored on how to be apolitician, I'll be a preacher,
I'll be a pastor right, butwasn't always mentored on how to
be a husband or how to be aloving and maybe indirectly,
because some things are taught,some things are caught, and I'm
not saying you haven't had thesethings happen.
I'm just saying and therapy hasallowed me to be more empathetic
(27:42):
, Therapy has allowed me to bemore patient, and I'm not saying
that's what I wanted you to say.
I would just say if knowing you, somebody knowing you
intimately, and the discussionsthat we have, that would be
something I think worthy ofbeing highlighted in a
conversation of such, but notnot not just as it relates to
(28:04):
that, but as we hinted toearlier that relationships
evolve, relationship devolve,and that you have taken a lot of
bullets, still navigate in aspace mentally that does not
harbor.
Harbor envy and hate issomething that I think is
(28:44):
important.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
That's very, very massive, and I thank you for
being my big brother, becauseI'm going to use that exact line
going forward, but no,ultimately, no, no no, I think.
Ultimately, you know,everything that I've been
through in life, whether good orbad, has taught me to be the
(29:07):
man that I am, to be transparent, to be open and honest.
I mean, we're living in aninternet society so anybody can
spew or say anything about you,but I've learned a lot of
lessons and ultimately, I'velearned myself.
I've learned who I am as anindividual, as a leader, as a
(29:30):
father, as a pastor, as a pastoryou know, through all that I've
been through, my children andmy church has had to bear some
of those storms that I've beenthrough.
You know, at the end of the day, you know I'm thankful that
(29:50):
everything that I've beenthrough has brought me to this
moment where I'm able to talkabout and testify, um, that God
will bring you through it andGod will see you through it.
Uh, and all you have to do isbe patient.
All you have to do is be quietand be still and God will fight
your battles.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
What, um, I was going to ask you about, um, as it
relates to black men in general,successful black men, right, is
it?
Your thoughts, is your analysisthat this is an area that is a
common struggle, especially whenthere's an emphasis on career,
(30:32):
professional development, lovingeverybody.
Is that a blind spot in youropinion?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
It is a very big blind gray spot, because you
know what they say many arecalled, but few are chosen.
Society that again, is flashyand only celebrate the positives
of people.
We tend to criticize and judgethe negative of individuals, and
(31:11):
so, at the end of the day, whenwe look at this world that
we're living in, being asuccessful Black man in America,
it comes with a cost.
It comes with a light that somany people cannot, can't handle
that spotlight, and so I thinkwe need more opportunities and
more outlets such as this,outlets such as groups where we
(31:37):
can continue to balance andthrow things off each other.
I mean, one of the great thingsabout you, man, is you always
create those outlets.
When it comes to ministry, whenit comes to excellence, you,
the man, you know you're goingto throw those golden nuggets on
individuals, and those that areready to receive it will
receive it and do what they'redoing.
(31:58):
And you often tell me thenuggets that I throw on you are
nuggets that's thrown on youfrom other people.
And so I think, as a successfulblack man, we need to continue
to talk about what does thisthing of success?
What kind of cost does it bring?
Does this thing of success.
What kind of cost does it bring?
Like I say, we're living in asociety that's kind of fake and
(32:20):
phony.
You know, social media hasallowed us to want to have a
life, a desire that's fake andphony.
But we need to start being realwith each other.
We need to start having realtalk, even in the church.
You know, being president ofthe Baptist ministers conference
, I mean pastors from all acrossthe city.
We gotta be more transparentwith one another.
(32:43):
We're a lot of people arestruggling, a lot of churches
are struggling, but some peopleeagles are to.
To bring them to a point wherethey're.
They're afraid to even talkabout that, you know.
So we got to start broadeningthese conversations going
forward.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
What about therapy?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Oh man, I'm I'm a strong proponent of, of, of, of
therapy.
I think that most of us we needto get in, everybody should
have a therapist.
On my speed dial, I got a speeddial to my therapist and at the
end of the day, it's somethingthat I believe, it's an outlet
(33:25):
that I believe will heal a lotof homes, will heal a lot of
hearts, will mend a lot of minds.
So mental health is important,man, and God blesses us with a
therapist.
I thank God for Jesus and Ithank God for my therapist.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time,
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where
depth meets dialogue.
Hosted by Dr George E Hurt,this show explores the great
areas of life where faith,wisdom and real-world
complexities intersect.
No easy answers, just honestconversations that challenge,
inspire and inform.
Get ready to lean in, listenclosely and explore the nuance.
(00:26):
This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So you eventually rise all the way up to regional
coordinator for the West Coast.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
When does, how, does how is preaching marrying itself
at this point with you?
And when does the WillardStreet journey enter in?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, so you know, I rise to the Western Regional
Director, I start member, Ibecome president of LA, I become
Western Regional Director andwe built the greatest chapter in
National Action Network history.
You know, I was chapter of theyear, I was leader of the year
(01:12):
throughout this organization.
We have over 100 chaptersaround the world, you know, and
so at the end of the day, I wasdoing the work, I mean I was
even, you know, in theconversation of who's going to
replace Reverend Sharpton.
I mean, people write articlesand they insert my name.
Reverend Tulis will possibly beone of the next leader
(01:33):
nationally.
So, with that being said,ministry never stopped, because
I started preaching at 18, stillpreaching, still youth
pastoring, still servingfaithfully at the First Antioch
Missionary Baptist Church, stillhave the foundation.
Still have the foundation Firstto get there at church, last to
(01:53):
leave Every Sunday.
I found it a pleasure to servePastor Haley and, you know,
ultimately things always was inplace.
My civil rights journey wasliterally part of my ministry.
I felt that was ministry and in2007, because of some of the
(02:14):
demonstrations that I wasleading around the city, a
police officer that was achairman on the board of a
church, they reached out to methrough another preacher named
Donald Wilson and they said doyou think this guy, uh, would
want to lead a church here inBoyle Heights?
(02:34):
You know, and I was, like BoyleHeights is where.
And it's the.
It's a region of Los Angeles,is adjacent to downtown Uh, and
99% of the residents don't speakEnglish.
So they asked that I want tolead this historic church in
(02:57):
Boyle Heights, and so I wasintrigued, you know, and you
know, I submitted my resume, Iwent to preach a couple of times
and then finally, as I wassitting there with my pastor, I
get a call from one of thetrustee members saying we've
elected you pastor of the WellerStreet Missionary Baptist
(03:17):
Church.
Can you start next week?
And I'm like next week you know,I got youth events and youth
programs going on.
You know, I enjoy being theassistant pastor of First
Antioch Missionary BaptistChurch, my pastor right here.
I enjoyed that, you know.
I didn't think about you know,pastoring and leading a
(03:40):
congregation.
And so my pastor looked at meand said you should be excited.
But I wasn't.
And I was like you know, Iwasn't, I was just trying it out
.
Uh, I've never candidated for achurch before, I'm just trying
it out.
I'm 29 years old, you know,almost 30, um no, just turned 30
(04:00):
.
Uh, and he said well, you oughtto go check it out.
You know they called you to thechurch, come check it out.
So I get to the Weller streetmissionary Baptist church, uh,
in um 2007, I believe, um 17years ago, and um, my first
Sunday there it was four people,not four people to greet me,
(04:24):
but literally four people inchurch.
I'm like Lord, you ain't callme over here to preach the four
people.
You know what are you doing.
You got well, you know, at theend of the day, you know this
was 2006.
I'm thankful for that call tothat church and I had
(04:49):
reservations.
I didn't tell nobody.
Only person that knew was myfirst wife.
She knew I was called to achurch.
I didn't tell my mama.
I didn't tell anybody that I'mcalled to this church because I
just like I don't see myselfgoing to Boyle Heights to grow
or lead no church.
And so that's where I foundmyself and I'm thankful that I.
(05:13):
You know that God put me there.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And how was that experience for you?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
That experience has been an amazing experience
because, as I say, I got thereas four people.
That was literally in thechurch.
And when I get there, you knowthis is 2006, 2007,.
You know that word seven, thatnew beginning.
So I marketed the service as aservice of new beginning, a
(05:41):
service of a new opportunity toreally push forward and to do
things in that manner.
And I really took advantage ofthat first Sunday at 1-1-0-7.
And ultimately, you know that'swhen that church started to
grow.
Friends and people start goingand it's nothing like ministry,
I mean, it's something that youknow, it's like.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
you know that's something that we You're doing
this with National AcademicNetwork.
You're doing this as afoundation.
You've been faithful to yourchurch.
You pastored a church that mostpeople would not even consider,
you didn't want to consider.
You've done all these thingsfor the Lord.
Surely your life has no issues,no problems and no troubles,
man please.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
What'd you say?
The more, the more things youdo, the more problems you have,
you know.
So, in that, you know it's been17 years I've been at the
church.
Okay, you know I've beenthrough two divorces.
You know, within the realm ofmy life I've been.
You know I've had good days andbad days being an activist.
(06:45):
You know you have a lot ofpeople shooting for you, a lot
of people shooting at you, a lotof people trying to what?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
does that look like?
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I mean it looks like just it's, it's to me a service,
but to them, is them trying totrip you up, mm-hmm, them trying
to slow you down?
Maybe I, I make it lookglamorous, but life is not easy.
As I said at the beginning, youknow my smile, you see my smile
, but my story and my journeyhas not been easy.
(07:16):
But I mean the Bible tell youthat.
I mean life is not designed tobe easy.
Life is not designed to be easy.
And so, with that, be sayinglife, be lifing, raising
children, marriage.
Marriages are failing.
You know bullets.
You become targets, you becomean influential person in the
(07:38):
community and people will beginto just start making stuff up,
hoping it will stick on you, onthe preacher, on the preacher,
really, you know, on thepreacher, and I knew you was
like them over there, you know.
But at the end of the day,god's word is true, you know,
he'll make your enemies yourfootstool, he'll place his
(07:59):
covering over you and he'll seeyou through.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think about this personally and I wonder what you
think, how much you would share, as it relates to that being
intensely involved in so manythings is meaningful, especially
as a young age Mine is not asmany accolades as yours, but
definitely at a young age,connected to the church,
(08:27):
connected involvement, thatthere there are spots or holes.
That has not been developed asa man, which makes problems for
me, relationship wise, for youmarriage wise, and people see
that and they will take thatflaw and try to use it against
(08:54):
you, a flaw that you alreadyfully aware of.
Yeah, um, opposed to comingalongside and saying, hey,
here's how I also did this, thisis how I struggled, here's how
I did this, I did that.
This is your space, um, as muchas you feel comfortable when
you look back, um at it, back atit, what and how you know your
(09:24):
mom is a triumphant story, butstill nobody still sees the
cracks that can be developed inthis story.
And I guess also goes back tothe question about the church,
about you know what was yourstruggles.
You have this mentorship butstill, at least for me, it's
never been to the point of, hey,you know when a woman starts
(09:47):
yelling or doing this.
Of course you're not beingphysical, of course we're not
going back and forth with names,but how do you process the
patience, the forgiveness, theinvolvement, the leadership to
say, hey, let's have thisconversation?
B?
Whatever the case may be foryou?
What does that look like?
(10:08):
What does that mean to you?
Does any of this even makesense?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
It makes a lot of sense.
You know, I got married myfirst time at the age of 22.
I was real young, she was young, and if we was to be honest, me
and my wife my first wife we'regood friends today.
She still remembers my churchand we're raising three amazing
(10:32):
children.
We was young, you know, and we,we messed up along the journey.
You know what I mean.
And and with that being said,but we, we, we birthed three
amazing children, and so, youknow, co-parenting and loving
each other and I mean showingthat love to our kids was
(10:57):
important.
But we got, we got married realyoung, too young, and a lot of
that had to do with the church.
You know, I'm I'm a minister, Ishouldn't be shacking up, I
shouldn't be living with someonethat you're not married to,
Shouldn't be having sex,shouldn't be having children.
So a lot of that had to do withthat, you know.
(11:19):
And so, with that being said,we were babies, raising babies,
you know.
And so, through that, you know,19 years was marriage that we
just couldn't hold on to.
We were both through with it,and so we both divorced, but we
still had three amazing kidsthat we had to really co-parent
(11:41):
with.
And so, ultimately, when Ithink about you know just some
of the nuances of life.
You know sometimes, you knowstruggles will push you into
areas to whereas you are, youbecome targets or you become.
You know, and we live in a timeof social media you know, and
(12:04):
we have social media.
We have to live to a certainstandard.
Through social media, peoplesee your life, your happy life,
they see the good times, theydon't see the bad times.
And so you're dealing with somany different struggles, so
many different situations and,at the end of the day, when we
(12:25):
put it all on paper, you know wehave struggles, man, and so,
you know, I had a lot of issuesin my life, after divorcing for
the first time to my first wife,that I had to deal with, and a
(12:45):
lot of those struggles, did youdeal with them?
I did not deal with them.
You know, I felt that divorcingwas dealing with it, you know,
and sometimes, when you're in asituation, I I won't tell people
all the time drama, our traumaattracts drama, you know, and,
(13:06):
um, it pushed me into anothermarriage right away, like
immediately, my friend, what areyou doing?
Uh, what?
What is it that?
Why, why are you doing this?
Because I was trying to cover alot of the pains of, you know,
from from.
So, with that being said, um,with life and with struggles,
(13:41):
you know, sometimes we can tryto mask our, our pains and our
situations and our struggles, um, by, you know, moving to other
venues, which is not a goodthing.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah.
So I guess, just for clarity,we would agree shocking is wrong
, but we never have a discussionon how to flesh out that in
light of biological realities,emotional realities, social
realities and things of thatnature.
As a pastor, let's say you're apastor in the 22 year old, you,
(14:35):
the 21 year old, you who'sthinking about these things,
who's progressing, you are thepastor of young.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
KW.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
What are you saying to young KW in light of what you
know?
Now, at this 21 years of age,doing all these great things?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
What I'm saying to young KW is slow down.
I'm saying to him you don'thave to get married because you
have a baby on the way.
I'm saying to him take yourtime, figure out life, pray a
lot more, get more into yourword, you know, um, get more
(15:35):
into your word, you know, don'tallow the whispers of people of
the church can push you to apoint where you'll make
decisions that you shouldn'tmake.
Are you a regret down the line?
I'm telling young KW take careof your responsibilities.
You don't have to marry justbecause you know you've been
(16:00):
intimate and you have a baby onthe way.
I'm saying that to young KW.
And I'm saying to young KW youknow, take care of everything
you're supposed to take care of.
Be the man that you are, butslow down and you can't perfect
everything.
You're trying to do kind of.
You know, take your time andtrying to figure out this thing
(16:20):
called life.
That's what I'm telling you,okay, w?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
what, what?
Yeah, you gave them a lot ofgood advice as it relates to
going into your second marriageafter coming out of your first
marriage.
What do you think there youwould have said to yourself, or
(16:49):
advice that you would have givenat that point?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I'm saying to that KW take your time.
I'm saying to that KW the otherone was to take his time.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I'm saying to that KW the other one was to take his
time, yeah, but I'm saying, slowup a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
You know I'm saying I'm pulling this coat tail.
Like you know, you don't haveto be married to pastor a church
.
You know I don't want to say myfirst marriage was a failure,
but it ended in a divorce.
I felt that I can do.
It ended in a divorce.
I felt that I can do it, I'm aloving dude.
I felt that I can be a goodhusband.
But I'm telling that, kw, itdon't matter how much you love
(17:29):
her or how much you're going todo right in this marriage,
trouble, don't discriminate.
And trauma attracts trauma.
And so I'm saying take yourtime in entering that process.
Look at the red flags.
Are there any red flags?
(17:51):
Are you overlooking those redflags?
Because, kw, you got a bigheart and you feel that you can
love anybody.
And as long as you love, youfeel that as long as you love
that person, that person isgoing to eventually develop that
same love you have in yourheart.
That's not true, you know.
(18:12):
So I'm telling that KW, takeyour time.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
KW, take your time.
I haven't heard in thoseconversations though, the role
of the church I know you're thepastor and you're saying this,
but I know I asked it that wayas it relates to also the other
conglomerates that is making upthe spear of our social
influence.
So I guess, being to be fair,being your brother and familiar
(18:46):
with some of the things you wentthrough and how other peers
that may have been able toadvocate in the way that brought
about amending the situation,reconciliation is not always
possible, but there is thisthing called forgiveness, and
also making sure that there is,or restoration is not always
(19:09):
possible, but reconciliation andforgiveness is something In
those reverse orders.
Forgiveness and reconciliationis something that can happen
when there are influences thatare doing that.
And I know you've receivedwritings, I know you've received
perspectives.
I've never heard you, um, Inever heard you suggest
(19:33):
perfection, even in thisconversation here.
Maybe if I I was an ear in yourear, like, don't say that don't
say that.
But you have, you've beenstraightforward with that.
Just looking back at, is therehurt?
There Is there.
(19:53):
Have there been bridges to haveconversations to deal with that
level of hurt and betrayal ofthings?
Again, not in the standpoint ofyou've just done everything,
right, right right, right, right, but just how do we, if we want
to and feel the need tointervene and be in a situation,
(20:15):
how do we do that in a way thatis pro healing?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So you know, in the midst of everything that I went
through, it's no secret that mysecond marriage was just
horrible.
You know, from the start to theend and I say this to you,
pastor that, pastor, hurt, loveis real.
(20:42):
When you love somebody, youdon't want to do no harm to no
one.
You know you don't want to sayno harm about anything.
The best thing about thatmarriage is it pushed me to
therapy, you know.
It pushed me to want to bettermyself.
And so in the midst of therapy,in the midst of me healing from
(21:05):
this you know, second marriagefailing I found myself healing
from a whole lot of other stuff.
You know, from a whole lot ofother stuff.
You know, from a whole lot ofother challenges that I faced in
life.
This is only just a smit ofwhat some of the things that
I've been through you know.
So therapy has helped me toheal and to see things from a
(21:31):
whole different level.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
What does that mean?
What does that, what does itmean?
To go to therapy?
Is it you know, you Google it?
No, it means you know.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
So in my second marriage I hate saying first and
second, I don't think thesecond one count, but it did.
But at the end of the day, atthe end of the day, as I went
through this healing journey, itmeans finding a real therapist.
You know, one of the thingsthat I did in my second marriage
(22:03):
is we went through familytherapy together, trying to heal
through the process.
But these was not realcounselors.
These were individuals that gota degree on the internet, you
know, that said a lot of goodthings.
That was very easily tomanipulate.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
This is not pre-marriage, this is during
marriage.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Pre-marriage and during marriage we went through
these same counselors and so Iimmediately recognized that.
You know these individualswanted your money.
You know they wanted to justsit there and hear you and you
send them your money.
But when I found a realtherapist through my medical
(22:47):
provider, you know that I seenthe difference between what were
some of the differences.
One again a real therapist is aperson that allows you to see
yourself.
It's not putting their owninput and things of that matter,
(23:09):
but allow you to try to figureit out within yourself, you to
try to figure it out withinyourself.
The other therapist, again,like I say, I can tell that
therapist X, y and Z and they'lltake X, y and Z and throw it at
this person and push you in adirection that you don't have to
be pushed within, you know.
(23:30):
So at the end of the day, youknow there's a difference
between these fake degreetherapists and a real, bona fide
, trained therapist to kind ofhelp you to unmask and unpack
some of the situations thatyou're going through.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, I guess for me, and helpful that would be
helpful to the audience as well.
Is you know what?
Not specifics, unless you wantspecifics.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Right, right, right right?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
What, like if you were?
If God would lead you to getmarried again, what would you be
able to say to that person asyou court them or date them?
That you worked on that nowmakes you suitable as a husband,
because you know, people arepeople are.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
People are judgmental to you, whatever level you're
at Right right right.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
So if you've been married before or you for me,
you've never been married beforeyou know it's always the lenses
of negativity.
So I'm not trying to cushionthat or promote that way of
thinking towards other people.
We have enough hurt on our ownweaknesses internally.
We don't need those thingsexternally.
(24:57):
Yeah, but I mean just, you knowyou're at, you know one of
these five-star restaurants yougo to all the time uh, you may
be on a yacht or something likethat, it's just a joke like that
, because somebody like I toldyou I had a yacht, but you're
out.
You know you're a Chick-fil-A,whatever.
And hey, the reason why I'm aperson that you can court is
(25:27):
because, in light of my pastyeah, in light of- my past is
because I'm a loving dude.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, in light of my past, is because I'm a loving
dude.
I'm that same loving dude thathas, for the final time, uh,
again, you know, and ultimately,you know, I believe that God
has um, someone that's there, um, that's going to love me,
that's going to support me,that's going to pray for me and
(26:13):
that's um going to be, um,that's going to be that soulmate
that we can just change theworld.
And you know, going into that,I recognize that how much of a
great catch I am.
And so, with that being said,you know, that's one of the
benefits of therapy.
I didn't allow the name.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
So you're telling this person you're a great catch
.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Well, that person- knew I'm a great catch.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Because, I'm a you know, man listen.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
You know, I always say actions speak louder than
words, right?
Absolutely and so at the end ofthe day, you know, I know who I
am and I know what I bring tothe table.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is you know
what are you trying?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
to ask me George.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I guess, if I was speaking for you, I would say
I'm a person that learned frommy mistakes, but not just
learned from my mistakes, andthat's why I said as specific as
you want to be yeah, mistakes.
(27:18):
And and that's why I said asspecific as you want to be yeah,
um, growing up and not havingthat father figure yeah, that I
got mentored on how to be apolitician, I'll be a preacher,
I'll be a pastor right, butwasn't always mentored on how to
be a husband or how to be aloving and maybe indirectly,
because some things are taught,some things are caught, and I'm
not saying you haven't had thesethings happen.
I'm just saying and therapy hasallowed me to be more empathetic
(27:42):
, Therapy has allowed me to bemore patient, and I'm not saying
that's what I wanted you to say.
I would just say if knowing you, somebody knowing you
intimately, and the discussionsthat we have, that would be
something I think worthy ofbeing highlighted in a
conversation of such, but notnot not just as it relates to
(28:04):
that, but as we hinted toearlier that relationships
evolve, relationship devolve,and that you have taken a lot of
bullets, still navigate in aspace mentally that does not
harbor.
Harbor envy and hate issomething that I think is
(28:44):
important.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
That's very, very massive, and I thank you for
being my big brother, becauseI'm going to use that exact line
going forward, but no,ultimately, no, no no, I think.
Ultimately, you know,everything that I've been
through in life, whether good orbad, has taught me to be the
(29:07):
man that I am, to be transparent, to be open and honest.
I mean, we're living in aninternet society so anybody can
spew or say anything about you,but I've learned a lot of
lessons and ultimately, I'velearned myself.
I've learned who I am as anindividual, as a leader, as a
(29:30):
father, as a pastor, as a pastoryou know, through all that I've
been through, my children andmy church has had to bear some
of those storms that I've beenthrough.
You know, at the end of the day, you know I'm thankful that
(29:50):
everything that I've beenthrough has brought me to this
moment where I'm able to talkabout and testify, um, that God
will bring you through it andGod will see you through it.
Uh, and all you have to do isbe patient.
All you have to do is be quietand be still and God will fight
your battles.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
What, um, I was going to ask you about, um, as it
relates to black men in general,successful black men, right, is
it?
Your thoughts, is your analysisthat this is an area that is a
common struggle, especially whenthere's an emphasis on career,
(30:32):
professional development, lovingeverybody.
Is that a blind spot in youropinion?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
It is a very big blind gray spot, because you
know what they say many arecalled, but few are chosen.
Society that again, is flashyand only celebrate the positives
of people.
We tend to criticize and judgethe negative of individuals, and
(31:11):
so, at the end of the day, whenwe look at this world that
we're living in, being asuccessful Black man in America,
it comes with a cost.
It comes with a light that somany people cannot, can't handle
that spotlight, and so I thinkwe need more opportunities and
more outlets such as this,outlets such as groups where we
(31:37):
can continue to balance andthrow things off each other.
I mean, one of the great thingsabout you, man, is you always
create those outlets.
When it comes to ministry, whenit comes to excellence, you,
the man, you know you're goingto throw those golden nuggets on
individuals, and those that areready to receive it will
receive it and do what they'redoing.
(31:58):
And you often tell me thenuggets that I throw on you are
nuggets that's thrown on youfrom other people.
And so I think, as a successfulblack man, we need to continue
to talk about what does thisthing of success?
What kind of cost does it bring?
Does this thing of success.
What kind of cost does it bring?
Like I say, we're living in asociety that's kind of fake and
(32:20):
phony.
You know, social media hasallowed us to want to have a
life, a desire that's fake andphony.
But we need to start being realwith each other.
We need to start having realtalk, even in the church.
You know, being president ofthe Baptist ministers conference
, I mean pastors from all acrossthe city.
We gotta be more transparentwith one another.
(32:43):
We're a lot of people arestruggling, a lot of churches
are struggling, but some peopleeagles are to.
To bring them to a point wherethey're.
They're afraid to even talkabout that, you know.
So we got to start broadeningthese conversations going
forward.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
What about therapy?
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Oh man, I'm I'm a strong proponent of, of, of, of
therapy.
I think that most of us we needto get in, everybody should
have a therapist.
On my speed dial, I got a speeddial to my therapist and at the
end of the day, it's somethingthat I believe, it's an outlet
(33:25):
that I believe will heal a lotof homes, will heal a lot of
hearts, will mend a lot of minds.
So mental health is important,man, and God blesses us with a
therapist.
I thank God for Jesus and Ithank God for my therapist.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations.
We invite you to return nextweek as we continue this
dialogue.
Be sure to subscribe so younever miss an episode and share
this conversation with otherswho may find it valuable.
Until next time,
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