Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Honestly, I salute anyone who can do a new like no
spend month or a year.
I've never been able to, andthat's just like.
I think you know, certainthings work for certain people
and that's kind of you know, oneof the things the many things I
talk about my book is howpersonal finance is personal and
that's why a lot of us struggleis because we're trying to
maybe fit into someone else'sbox and we're like well, I tried
(00:24):
this and it didn't work.
It must be a me problem.
It's like or that just doesn'twork for you because that's just
not how your brain works.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good evening and welcome to Nurse Maureen's
Health Show Podcast, the podcastwhere we dive into the stories
that shape our healthrelationships and how we move
through the world.
I'm Maureen McGrath, registerednurse, nurse, continence
Advisor, nurse nurse continenceadvisor and sexual health and
menopause educator.
Tonight we're talking aboutsomething that touches every
part of our lives, especiallythese days, and it's associated
(00:51):
with a lot more uncertainty.
Now we're talking about money,but not in the way you might
expect.
In my clinical practice, I dealwith the sexual side of things
for patients like low desire,erectile dysfunction and
anorgasmia.
But even I find that, when itcomes to relationships,
differences in financial values,spending habits, debt or
(01:12):
financial stress can createmajor tension.
Money often represents morethan dollars.
It can symbolize control,security, freedom or even
self-worth.
Tonight on the podcast, I'mjoined by Jessica Morehouse,
financial educator, speaker,bestselling author and host of
the More Money podcast, to talkabout her eye-opening new book
(01:36):
Everything but Money.
In a time of financialuncertainty, jessica takes us
beyond the numbers to explorethe emotional weight we carry
around money, from shame andself-worth to how our financial
stories shape our relationships.
Good evening, jessica.
How are you?
I'm good.
Thanks so much for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure and Iabsolutely loved your book and I
(01:57):
recommend everybody read itbecause I feel like we're all
living with this secret shamearound money.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Oh yeah, I mean, yeah , I don't know if it's so secret
.
I mean, sometimes you just haveto ask someone one or two
questions.
You're like, oh yeah, this is aprominent feeling that a lot of
us I'd say the majority of usfeel, and a lot of it has to do
with, I mean, so many things.
But often it really stems from,you know, our childhoods and our
(02:24):
upbringing and we carry thisshame.
That's probably not even ours,it's usually our parents or
caregivers.
We carried it with us untilwe're adults and then we, you
know, are struggling with, youknow, our finances and all you
know, not even just necessarilylike the management of our
finances, but just how we feelwith our money and how you know
(02:44):
if we think we're good enough orsmart enough to learn how to
manage it better.
And that's definitely what Iwant to write this book for is
to help anyone who feels like,oh, I can't, possibly, or I'm
just not good at money, I'm notgood at budgeting, I'm not good
at this, this just isn't for me.
I've read some personal financebooks or I've tried doing the
(03:06):
things I learn online andthey're just not working for me.
And I want to present somereasons why that might be kind
of some internal reasons andsome solutions, so you can kind
of break free.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's interesting that you say that.
I will say I'm not good atbudgeting, I'm not good at
writing down.
I know everybody recommendswrite down every single dollar
that you spend.
I just can't do that.
It doesn't work for me.
What inspired you and this is adeeply personal book what
actually inspired you to writeEverything but Money, and why
now?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, it's actually funny that it came out this year
, just because I'm like wow, Ifeel like a lot of the topics
are very timely for what we'regoing on.
There's a lot more financialanxiety.
A lot more people have money onthe mind right now with what's
going on in the world.
And for me, I, you know, I'vebeen a financial educator,
content creator, for 13 plusyears and I've talked to so many
(04:00):
people, so many different ages,backgrounds, life experiences,
and I really want to you know,overall, like after all of these
years of talking with peopleand you know they come to me
because they're strugglingfinancially or they have a
question and they don't knowwhat the solution is, and often
they think that it's, you know,it's in the numbers, it's a
(04:20):
dollars and cents issue, it's amoney issue, but then when we
really dig deep, it's abouteverything but money.
It's deeper than money.
It's something else that'sgoing on that's preventing them
from doing some of the thingsthat are really pretty simple.
I was actually just talking tosomeone the other day about how
a lot of people either arelooking for that really easy,
(04:42):
quick solution thatunfortunately, they don't really
exist, and that's why there'sstill so many people that are,
you know, pumping out these getrich quick schemes that
ultimately never work, or theycome to the point where they
have learned all the things thatyou need to know to manage your
money properly.
And then they're like well,what's next?
It can't possibly be thatsimple.
There's something else rightand yeah.
(05:04):
Sometimes, no, the answer islike.
No, that's it Like you know Ialways kind of give the example
of like.
When it comes to fitness, weall actually do know the
fundamentals of being healthyand fit with our bodies.
We got to move and we got toeat healthy, and we sometimes
need to track if things aren'tlining up.
We need to know where theproblem areas is.
So we need that data and weneed to be consistent with it,
(05:25):
and that's kind of it.
And some people are like no,there's got to be more.
I must have to, you know,optimize this way, or get up at
four in the morning or whatever,and it's like it doesn't
actually have to be thatcomplicated.
And so money is the exact sameway If you want to reach your
goals and feel more secure andmore satisfied with your money.
It's actually pretty simple theactual practical things you
(05:46):
need to do.
However, when I say that, thenwhy are so many people still
struggling?
If it's that simple?
And that's because there's alot of other things underneath
the hood going on that ispreventing you from getting out
of your own way, and so I wantto write a book for everyone
I've ever talked to that hasfelt that way, but also I want
(06:06):
to do my own kind of personaljourney to find out what's going
on with me, because most peoplewould not, I think, build a
career like I have, and I neverexpected to have the career I do
as a financial educator.
But I was an arts kid, Ithought I was going to work in
film and TV and I love storiesand stuff like that and then
somehow took a left turn and nowdo what I do and I'm obsessed
(06:30):
with it.
I am so passionate aboutfinancial education and, you
know, learning about money.
Why is that?
And so I had to do someintrospection to find out.
Do I actually have an unhealthyrelationship with money?
And yeah, I did.
I've done a lot of self workand a lot of therapy throughout
the couple of years that it tookme to get the book done.
(06:50):
And yeah, I'm not perfecteither.
And so I really want to write abook that shows not only am I
being vulnerable and honest withyou, so hopefully I can
encourage you to do the same,but we all have our stuff and we
can't move forward or reachsome of those goals that we just
they're just so close to beingin our grasp but we can't figure
(07:11):
out.
Why are we not able to makethat you know extra mile.
Why can't we get there?
There's something in the way,and we just all need to figure
out what is that thing, and it'sdifferent for everybody, and so
I present a whole bunch ofpossibilities.
This could be you, this could beyou, this could be you and it
could be a combination.
You can have all of thesethings, and that is why it's so
(07:32):
difficult for you to keep a jobor put money in savings or start
investing or pay down debt orstop getting into the cycle of
debt.
There's all these reasons, andonce you know that, it's a lot
easier to then develop some sortof path or strategy to do
something different with yourmoney, so you can stop living
how you're living if you're notreally happy with it, and live
(07:55):
differently.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And what are some of those reasons that you referred
to as to why people can't getcontrol of their money?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So we kind of start in the book going back to your
kind of first money memory, soreally finding out what is your
origin story with your money.
How was that first experience?
And so I give a personal storyof myself when I was four years
old and how I stole a gumball atthe grocery store, was shamed
for it by my mom rightly so,because stealing is bad.
(08:26):
But I carried that sense ofshame for doing something
shameful and then also shamingmy family for, oh, this kid I
can't believe what a bad kidthat she stole something.
I carried that shame with meuntil I started writing my book.
I had no idea I was carryingthat.
So that was a big thing.
I didn didn't realize I wascarrying this big sense of shame
with money for my whole lifeand that prevented me from doing
(08:48):
a lot of things.
Because I was I.
You know I shame, can you know,manifest in so many different
areas, including I didn't thinkI was, yeah, good enough, smart
enough.
You know I should just stick inmy stay in my lane, things like
that.
And so starting with figuringout how does money make you feel
today and where did that start,can give you a good aha moment
(09:10):
and then really taking a lookalso at some of the feelings,
the values, the beliefs aboutmoney that, again, you may have
right now.
Where did those come from, andare those good or bad?
Do we need to let go of some ofthem?
So for me, I have, you know,from my parents and even my
grandparents sometimes I canreally go down that family line
(09:31):
this idea that I'll never haveany kind of wealth, even though
I'm working so hard to, you know, invest and save and be good
with my money, because no one inmy family has ever had wealth.
They've always just had justenough.
And so that's, you know,learning that and seeing that,
you think that that's your onlypath.
(09:53):
You can only just have justenough, nothing more, because
there's never been an example ofwealth.
So why would you even thinkthat you can achieve that?
So that was a mindset I had tolet go of, because I'm like
that's really unhealthy to thinkthat I'm preventing myself from
striving towards this reallybig goal of maybe, like early
retirement or just you know,being more comfortable than past
(10:15):
generations, because that was alesson I learned growing up.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
That's amazing.
I think I might need apsychologist for my money
history.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Hey, I saw several therapists while writing my book
to kind of do some digging.
So highly recommend All right,so great.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But you might be able to help me because you've been
and I haven't been yet.
But when you said what's yourearliest money memory, two
things came to mind.
And one was I remember, and Ihave no idea what age it was,
but my father said if you everhave the desire to steal
something, come home and I'llbuy it for you.
And I never did, I know cause.
I knew I could never come homeand say I felt like stealing
(10:53):
candy at the drugstore becausethat was associated with shame.
But that was also like I didn'treally have control over money.
I don't know, I'm not apsychologist, I just play one on
this podcast.
But, um, and the other moneymemory was my.
I went to my best friend'shouse with my mother and, uh,
and she was friends with hermother and we were going to go
(11:14):
to the store and my friend, mybest friend, came out with this
like little pouch of all thesedifferent coins, all this money
that she had earned and mymother gave me a dollar and the.
It was just such a starkdifference.
The money was given to me andshe had earned hers and I had
(11:34):
never really understood that akid could earn money and I I
just remember thinking like thatis so cool.
I had just so many mixedemotions about that.
Gee, I'd really like to earn myown money, that kind of a thing
.
So I know we can't get into,dive into my psyche, but it's
interesting to.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I mean, there's an exercise in the book that you
might want to go through toreally, yeah, dig deep into like
let's get some more detailsabout that and how does that
connect?
Now, because you may be able tomake some of those connections
to be like oh, that's why I dothis or I behave like this or I
feel like this.
It probably stems from some ofthose memories especially those
memories popped up real quickfor you.
(12:13):
You're like those were therethe whole time they were waiting
to be discovered.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That's exactly right.
And then something else I'mjust curious about gender
differences, because I find alot of women because I put on
events and I hire people and I,you know, I do contract.
You know I hire contractors tohelp me out with certain
projects and that kind of thingand oftentimes they're women,
because it's a lot of women'swork that I do and you know,
women undervalue themselves orthey'll say, oh, maureen, I'll
(12:40):
just work for free because Ireally like you and I say no,
you can't work for free.
Or you know, they'll say say oh,I worked 10 hours but I'm just
going to charge you five.
I'm like, why?
Why are you diluting yourhourly wage?
You know, don't be ridiculous.
Uh, do men and women deal with?
Because I'll often ask men aswell, women don't negotiate.
There are so many things menhave no problem negotiating.
(13:00):
You know, I learned from a manthat there's always 10 in there,
you know, and so it's hard forwomen to negotiate.
Is it harder for women to talkabout money and deal with money?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I'd say so because I mean, when we look at history,
we were not part of thefinancial conversation until,
honestly, the past couple ofdecades, right, when I look at
my grandma and she really shewas the one who was running that
household and making sureeverything was okay and there
was four kids in that family.
I'm talking about my maternalgrandma she wasn't able to have
(13:32):
a credit card when she was, youknow, a mom and she had to give
up work.
She was a teacher and back inthat time she had to quit that
job once she got married.
And there are so, so there areso many elements where she had,
you know, could have had alittle bit of financial
independence, but because shechose to get married and have a
family, she had to give all ofthat up and she never really had
(13:54):
any financial independence atall.
And so that is what my mom sawand you know, of course, my mom
always worked and that was, shehad a lot of pride in that and
she was kind of of our moneymanager for our family and was a
really great representation ofoh yes, you can be part of those
money conversations, but evenstill, that was so recent, right
(14:15):
, that's only one generationfrom me.
A lot of the stereotypes thatare unfortunately still around
about how women, you know, oh,we shop too much.
We are, you know, riskintolerant.
We, you know, never negotiate.
(14:35):
We're bad with money, all thesestereotypes where, when you
actually look at the data, we'rereally good with money.
It's just the society, thesystems that were in place,
prevented us from ever being,you know, part of the
conversation, you know having aseat at the table, and so some
of us, you know, internalizesome of those things and we just
take ourselves out and we so wekind of, you know, maybe
(14:58):
believe some of thesestereotypes when they're
completely untrue, and so Ithink, yeah, part of it is just
like we were never allowed tohave any financial independence.
So to make these leaps andbounds in only a couple of
generations, I mean, we've doneamazing work when you think
about it, right, Like my grandmawasn't able to get credit.
She wasn't able to get a creditcard, Like how wild is that?
(15:18):
And so I think we're actuallydoing pretty good, but it's so
important for us, especially aswomen, to have more of
conversations so we can dobetter for the next generation,
next generation to keep movingthe dial.
Because, yeah, that wassomething I had to really
unlearn and relearn was how tonegotiate, how to speak up for
(15:39):
myself, how to do this, becausethat was I never learned any of
that stuff, Whereas, you know,maybe if I were a man, maybe I
would be part of thoseconversations as a kid.
You know the dads, you know,maybe if I were a man, maybe I
would be part of thoseconversations as a kid.
You know the dads, you knowtalking with their boys about
how to do this and that I don'tknow.
But yeah, it's definitelycommon, it's very common.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Absolutely, and I think it's.
You know, we might be good atit but maybe we're not good at
it all the time.
You know everything waxes andwanes in life, you know, and
sometimes you're better withyour finances than than at other
times.
Something my accountant fatherdid teach me was put and I was
an obedient child, keep that inmind but he'd say, put 14% of
your paycheck away, which I did,and that was highly beneficial.
(16:23):
But you know what.
It wasn't enough.
You know it was not enough ofthe control.
You know what I mean To havethat agency over my money and,
more importantly, my husband'smoney Just kidding Cause his was
mine.
He has no interest and I reallydon't even talk to him about
money, but I'll talk to mysisters about my little like my
little TikTok, you know no spendyear that we talked about
(16:46):
before the show.
Another thing that I'm doing isI say this is my year of
multiple income streams.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
You know and so I do these little intentional things.
But you know, maybe I had aslightly better foundation
around money growing up in termsof, but you know, my mother was
entirely opposite of my fatherin terms of just spend, spend,
spend.
You only live once.
But she grew up with money andso that was a different.
That was probably a differentstory as well, where my father's
(17:17):
family struggled much more so,but you know they still.
You know my grandmother managedto make a very good life for
all of them.
You know you, people strugglewe talked about with shame
around money, either not havingenough, not knowing what to do
with it.
What helped you break free fromthat shame and what do you
recommend for people listeningwho might have that shame or not
(17:41):
even realize that they havethat shame around money?
And I can see where it's peopleit's.
It's tied to how they feelabout themselves.
They compare themselves withhow much money somebody has.
There's always going to besomebody with more and somebody
with less, and it's not aboutthat, is it?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
No, yeah, there's a big portion of one chapter in my
book that really talks aboutshame, because that is one of
the most common feelings Idiscovered when I was doing a
lot of interviews and just liketalking to people over the years
that they had associated withmoney, and so there's so many
different forms of shame, and Ithink it's really important for
me to also properly describewhat is shame, because some
(18:18):
people confuse it with guilt,and they're very different
things.
Shame is the feeling thatthere's something fundamentally
wrong with you, and so if youhave shame with money, you're
going to think that there'ssomething fundamentally wrong
with you, and so you, if youhave shame with money, you're
going to think that there'ssomething fundamentally wrong
with you and your money.
You're just like we kind oftalked about I'm not good with
money, I'm bad with money.
If you have these ideas thatthis is part of your identity,
(18:41):
how that's very difficult foryou to then, ok, well, if I just
you know, do this, this andthis, start a budget and put you
know 14% away into savings,everything will be good.
No, because you think thatfundamentally, there's something
wrong with you, and so we needto really identify what is this
sense of shame.
What is it?
(19:01):
Was it really?
Because there's so manydifferent forms it could be
shame from growing up with lessif you were kind of low income,
or even shame of growing up withmore and feeling kind of bad
for maybe how much you hadcompared to your neighbors.
So there's so many differentforms and really identifying
where did that shame come fromand how is it preventing you
(19:22):
from living what I call afinancially fulfilled life, so
just living your most fulfilledlife and how money can kind of
help you get there, and untilyou really do that work, you're
just going to be doing the samecycle forever and ever.
And so for me, that was a bigwake up call for me, because I
didn't realize that my shame waspreventing me from ever feeling
(19:44):
satisfied with my money.
No matter what I achieved, whatmilestone I achieved with my
money, I still never felt goodenough.
I always thought, well, butthere's so and so out there who
has more or did this and youdidn't do this.
So I was always comparingmyself to someone else, and so I
would always have to push thatgoalpost a little bit further,
(20:05):
and so I would never besatisfied, no matter how good I
was being with my money.
It was never good enough and soI'm like well, that's not a
good place to live and I don'twant to feel like that forever.
And so I had to do a lot ofself-work to make sure that
shame when it reared its uglyhead and it still does, because
it's just part of my DNA.
I have to really be mindful ofthat and be like no, I'm not
(20:25):
letting it dictate my financialdecisions or how I feel about
myself and my future and mypotential.
I'm not doing that anymorebecause I know how I felt when I
did.
Let it kind of run the show andit wasn't healthy, and so it's
a practice, like pretty mucheverything in my book is.
You know, here are the issues,here are some solutions, but
(20:47):
it's a practice.
You're going to have tocontinue to practice.
It's not a cure, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Absolutely.
And then you said shame is verydifferent from guilt.
And I just want to tell maybethis is a shame story, but I
went to visit my parents inFlorida and now I came from
Canada and so I hadn't exchangedmy money and I had no cash when
I got down there and I remembermy father saying you know, your
sister would have had this alltied up, you know she'd have had
(21:12):
the cash, like I.
I felt terrible and I never,ever, ever have done that.
Since you know, it's just a oneliner, people have to say to me
and I'm like shocked intochanging my behavior I will
always have cash Not going tothe US, these days too much but
you know, I will always havecash with me when, when I go now
(21:33):
, just because of that one thing.
But you're right, I felt, youknow, shamed by that.
And but what is guilt asopposed to shame?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So guilt is a lot easier of a feeling to kind of
rectify.
It is the feeling that you didsomething wrong, and so it's
more of a behavior.
It's like you know, if I mean,really what you're kind of
describing is more, maybe youwere kind of guilted into not
doing that action again, or theinaction such as right, yeah,
you know you should have, youknow, converted some of your
currency and brought some ofthat with you, and so you're
(22:01):
like, oh yeah, you're right, Ifeel kind of bad about that, I'm
not going to do that again.
And then you change yourbehavior and you're better for
it.
But the shame like you know,the tone definitely was a bit
shameful in that, and so it'sreally important to really, you
know, make sure we understandthat there's guilt and there's
shame.
And when shame is involved.
(22:36):
We need to really take a lookat that and really even tell
ourselves yeah, I understandthat and hey, I was able to
learn a really helpful lesson,but I need to let go of that
shame part because I know I'mnot a bad person or I'm
fundamentally flawed.
That's not gonna help me movingforward.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yes, exactly, and I think it is.
Probably it was much more of aguilty you know, guilty
narrative than the shame thing,but it did change my behavior
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you know, sometimes people don'tknow what to do with their
money.
And then there's thesemillionaires, dare I say, which
you know won't really get youfar today either, being a
(24:04):
millionaire, but I, I, I sort ofdeem them.
You know, I have, I havemillionaire friends who couch
surf.
I have millionaire friends whowill never, never have their
wallet with them.
I have millionaire friends,people who have plenty of money
and yet they still can't spend.
What are those issues?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Oh man, I mean, we could really have a whole other
discussion about that.
I mean, that's the thing.
I think a lot of people andthis is something I talk about
in the book a lot of peoplethink that if I had more money
then all my problems would goaway.
Like the money is the solution.
And it can be when we'retalking about an actual
financial problem.
So if you, if your income isnot enough to meet your basic
(24:48):
needs, more money is thesolution to that problem, it
will solve that problem.
But if you know, I work with anumber of clients, one on one,
who it's not an income issue.
We take a look at theirspending and their income and we
see, oh well, the problem isthe spending.
That's very easy to fix becausewe can run the numbers.
We're like, well, we need tocut this, cut this and
(25:10):
reorganize this and put thisinto savings.
And now we've got a balancedbudget.
But the problem I was seeingrecurring was they would come
back a month or two later andthey wouldn't make any progress.
They weren't sticking to thatbudget.
Why is that?
Or I have some clients who, youknow, make a decent income, but
they are just so terrified tospend their money.
They are always worried that, oh, but I don't want to spend this
(25:34):
, because what if somethinghappens?
And you're like where does thisfear come from?
That's also not healthy, too,being like a hoarder of your
money.
You need to spend your money,that's what it's for.
You can't, you know, like thecliches, like you can't take it
with you.
So you want to have money insavings for the future, but you
shouldn't be paralyzed with fearthat if you buy a latte, you're
(25:54):
going need to have balance, andso it's really important to
figure out, speaking of like,what's that kind of anchor that
will make you feel good andsecure with your money, and also
figuring out what do youactually want in life and how
can money help you get there.
And then what is in your way?
(26:14):
What are those feelings?
It could be shame, it could befear, it could be anxiety.
There's all these things thatare likely in your way
preventing you from just feelinggood about your money.
And that's really the wholepoint of the book is I want you
to feel good about your money,because it should make you feel
good.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Something that makes me very uncomfortable and and I
also think people think I'm aneasy mark because I, I will foot
the bill.
You know I will.
But I get nervous if peoplearen't pulling out their credit
cards quickly enough when thebill comes, and and or that you
know they've whatever, maybegone somewhere and and then it's
(26:51):
time for the bill and theydon't move, and then you feel
like you have to pay and thenthey're like oh, thank you, oh
really, oh no, that's when youhave to speak up to be like, and
then they're like oh, thank you, oh really, oh no, that's when
you have to speak up to be likeso we're all splitting the bill,
right, or we're all just payingfor our meals individually,
right?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Like sometimes you have to be that person because
again, yeah, you could be.
I think I kind of give anexample in my book, a story of a
woman who she because her kindof some past, uh trauma in a
past relationship where therewas some financial abuse going
on she, when there was a a groupdinner with a bunch of friends,
(27:27):
she had friends who's like, hey, let's get this expensive wine.
And in her mind she's like Ireally can't afford to do that.
Now I'm worried, I'm going togo into debt because I'm
terrified to say that I can'tafford that or I don't want to
pay for your wine.
I don't even want wine, andthat's a real thing.
A lot of people would rathertake on that financial burden of
putting on their credit cardand then getting into credit
(27:48):
card debt because they're tooafraid to voice their needs and
their concerns, or that I don'twant to pay for you and I
shouldn't have to pay for you.
You should pay for yourself,because now you're taking
advantage of me and I'm the onethat has to deal with the
repercussions of this.
But that's so difficult becauseyou have to be vulnerable to
speak your truth and to say,yeah, I don't want to pay for
(28:09):
your meal.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
You should pay for your own meal.
That's why we're all here.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
But that's really difficult to do.
But again, that comes down to apractice of speaking up for
yourself and protecting yourmoney, and I always tell people
that if you need a kind of newframe of mind for money
management why it's important,think of it as this is the
ultimate form of self-care.
It's not just a facial mask anda bath.
If you really want to performself-care, making sure that your
(28:37):
money is right and you'retaking care of your finances is
the best way to do it, becauseyou're taking care of present to
you, but also future.
You Like.
I like to always think ofJessica in her, you know, 60s,
70s, in retirement, and Jessicaright now I'm taking care of her
, because who else is going totake care of her?
It's going to be much moredifficult for me to make money
when I'm at that age and maybecan't work or you know, who
(29:00):
knows what's going to happen.
So we need to really, you know,protect ourselves right now in
our future, and sometimes thatreally gets people like, oh, I
never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That's right.
And you hear people saying youknow, I'm on a fixed income, so
that.
So that means what that meansyou're not going to pay.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
You're like, okay, how's that my problem?
Like we shouldn't have to alsotake on other people's financial
burdens and problems, right?
I know sometimes you feel like,oh, I feel bad, or I know I
earn more than that person, so Ishould, you know, take care of
them.
Well, you need to take it,You've got to put that you know,
I know it's a cliche again, butput that mask on yourself and
on the plane before you can dothat to someone else.
(29:38):
Because again, who's going totake care of you if you're
always taking care of someoneelse and then you know, by the
time it comes down to youthere's nothing left.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
And I have to say I am guilty of that.
You know I was also raised likepay your own way but be
generous, like a millionmessages around money.
But you know I've been at thesupermarket where somebody
didn't have their credit card afriend and you know I paid for
their groceries and then theynever paid me back.
Yeah, you know, they just, butit's, it's, that's on me,
(30:06):
because I didn't say hey, youowe me $56 for the, for the
groceries that I just bought foryour, you know, living in your
two and a half million dollarhouse there.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh yeah, if that's the case, they should pay you
back.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Of course I think regardless even if they're not.
I mean, you know, I thinkpeople should pay their way, but
we're so uncomfortable aroundmoney.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh, we're so uncomfortable talking about
money or especially asking formoney.
No one wants to ask for money,right?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, feeling because you feel like you're doing
something wrong.
But most of us we're asking formoney because, well, I footed
the bill and you said that youwere going to pay me back and
then you just haven't, and soagain it's like you've got to
protect yourself.
Or if it's a one-time thinglike, for example, me and my
(30:54):
family we in general don't have,we don't borrow money from each
other If we're going to givemoney to somebody, it's a gift
and that is kind of theunderstanding, because then it's
like a one-time special, youknow it's a gift, and then
there's kind of no awkwardness,um, but there's still this
understanding of this is what itis.
And also it's not a recurringthing, because I think there's
(31:16):
been other family members youknow, probably my parents who've
had other financial situationswhere they lent money and never
got paid back, and so they'relike, no, we don't do that
anymore.
If we're going to give money,we're not having any
expectations, but we have thisunderstanding of that.
So really setting thoseboundaries, I think, is what
we're kind of getting at is youneed to have those boundaries
and you need to speak up foryourself.
And if you do find a friend isconstantly forgetting their
(31:39):
wallet or expecting you to pay.
You got to rethink yourrelationship with that friend
and money and setting someboundaries.
And sometimes it's awkward,especially if you've let it go
on for a while a couple ofmonths, a couple of years and so
now they just expect you to andyou're like I don't like this
and so you need to change it andit's going to be awkward, but
(31:59):
you're going to be glad you didit.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yes, exactly, and you know I can be guilty of all
those things and but you know, Ifeel like with the bit of
agency or power that I've takenback as a result of that little
TikTok video that I saw onesummer night, you know, I feel
like I'm better able to do thosethings with less, if you will.
Resentment, you know, becausewe do.
(32:24):
We can get resentful when youknow it's the same person who's
you know, forgetting theirwallet all the time at the spa
and those expensive services.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
No kidding, I feel like, yeah, again, it's like you
could afford to pay me back.
And sometimes it is about like,okay, just send them a text
after, right after, so theydon't forget.
And then, if again you're likehanding them for money, you're
like, okay, well, I know thisnow and this is.
Then.
You know, next time we go tothe spa and they forget their
wallet, I'll be like, wow, thatreally sucks for you.
Did you want to reschedule?
(33:00):
Exactly, and we're not doingthis because I know what
happened.
Now you're taking advantage ofme for again their own money
issues.
You know who knows why peopledo the things that they do and
it's.
But again it's like that's notyour problem.
You're not their therapist.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Absolutely.
Speaking of therapists.
However, you mentioned thattherapy played a role in your
journey and how important isemotional or mental health in
financial wellness.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Oh, it's so important Because, again, most people
think money is just aboutdollars and cents and just
balancing the budget.
But no, it's super emotional.
That's why we make most of ourdecisions with money is when
emotions come into play.
I mean, I've been having somany conversations the past
couple months of telling peopleplease do not let your emotions
(33:45):
dictate your financial decisionmaking.
Right now, especially withwhat's going on in the stock
market, A lot of people arepanicking and like I'm going to
sell everything because I'm justafraid of what's happening and
I'm like please don't do thatBecause that's an emotional
reaction.
What you should be doing withyour money, especially when it
comes to like you're investingand you know, say, you're saving
for retirement is to not touchthose things Because there's so
(34:08):
much I mean we could look backfive years of COVID and so many
people did that.
They freaked out.
The stock market was going down, there's this new pandemic,
everything shutting down.
People were so emotional and,instead of just not touching
their money, they did everythingwrong with their money.
So they sold their investmentsand then it stayed in cash and
then, when the stock marketrebounded which it did really
(34:29):
quickly it was more expensivefor them to buy back their
investments that they just sold,and so they were in a worse
financial position.
Or we saw a lot about in 2020and then onward.
So many people were stuck athome, and what did they do?
Because they were bored oremotional or anxious, they
shopped online and spent a tonof money on stuff that they
didn't need that they probablylater regretted, Right.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
That is so true.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
So we really need to, every time we make a financial
decision, small or big, reallytake a check on yourself, on how
do I feel right now?
Like, what am I feeling?
Am I feeling good?
Am I feeling kind of anxious?
Am I kind of fearful?
What's going on with me?
And then really take a look at,kind of like what you were
doing is do I need this?
(35:14):
Is this actually something Ineed, or do I just?
Am I just looking for thatdopamine hit Because I'm just
not doing really well and I justneed something?
I need something right now, andif that's the case, then we need
to step away, because the bestthing you can do when it comes
to any kind of financialdecision making is to basically
be an emotionalist robot.
Because, when it comes to ourhuman behavior and our emotions,
(35:37):
we've got these biases andthese instincts that are telling
us to do one thing, becausethey were built, developed in us
thousands and thousands ofyears ago to help us survive.
But these biases never factoredin modern finance, and so most
of your instincts, we actuallyneed to ignore them, because if
we panic, sell our investments,because we feel like, oh, we
(35:59):
need to run away from thisthreat, we're going to regret it
later, and so what I alwaystell people is if you're feeling
emotional, do nothing, or maybedo the opposite of what you
think you should do.
If you think you need to buysomething, let's not buy
something.
Or if you feel like you need tosell your investments, maybe we
should continue investing,because now the stock market is
(36:20):
on sale, so this is actually areally great opportunity.
This is how a lot of peoplebuild wealth is during those
downs in the market, they keepon buying and then, when it goes
back up, they're wealthier.
So do nothing or do theopposite is what I would
recommend.
If you're feeling emotional.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Listen, I really appreciate that advice because
you know a lot of people that Iknow have, you know, turned over
into a cash position in thestock market, sold everything
and it's like I didn't reallyknow what to do there.
Whether to you know, stay thecourse.
And I just thought you knowwhat.
Ignore it, don't even look atit.
Everyone's telling me how muchthey lost.
(36:53):
I'm like, forget it.
It's a paper loss number one.
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Don't look at it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
No, I'm not looking at it, I'm in complete denial,
which is not a very healthy,mentally healthy way.
But whatever Denial and I'm notgoing to do anything about that
, and I think these arecertainly uncertain times but,
as you say, it can be a verygood way to build wealth when
(37:19):
the stock market goes down, aswe saw in the 2008 crash and
then also during the pandemic aswell.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Well, that's the thing.
This is cyclical.
This isn't the first time thishas happened.
Yeah, the environment, thecircumstances are a bit
different, but it's stillsimilar to 2020, 2008, you know,
2000, 2001.
There's always been some sortof economic or stock market
crisis and, time and time again,the people who build wealth are
(37:42):
the people who double down andkeep on investing or just
continue with their investmentplan.
If they have these regularcontributions once a month, they
put this amount into theirinvestments.
Those are the people that didokay.
The ones who you hear in thenews are like I lost my
retirement savings that'sbecause they sold when
everything was crashing and theynever got back in If they just
(38:04):
held on to this roller coaster,which is what it feels like they
would, you know.
again, I always tell people lookat the, you know, s&p 500 or
S&P TSX composite index, theseindexes that represent the US
stock market, the Canadian stockmarket.
Every time it goes down, iteventually goes back up to a
higher peak.
So if you were just to stay inthe market and literally not
(38:25):
even touch your investments, ifyou stayed the course, you would
be in a better position once itrecovered and it always
recovers.
But you have to be very patient.
Sometimes it takes years torecover, as we say, you know,
with the Great Recession thathit people hard, I mean.
I graduated university in 2009.
I'm like this is a terribletime to start finding a job, but
(38:48):
things rebounded and thingswere even better once they
recovered, and so you just needto stay the course, and I always
tell people, sometimes justlooking at history and what you
should and shouldn't do so youdon't repeat the mistakes of the
past.
That's kind of one thing thatmight give you a little calmness
.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Exactly, and instead of freaking out everybody, read
Jessica Morehouse's bookEverything but Money and also
listen to her amazing podcast,the More Money Podcast.
Jessica, it's just been awesome.
I have a couple more questionsfor you.
What advice would you give tosomeone who feels like they're
checking all the boxes?
They have a good job, they havea savings account, they have
(39:26):
some investments, but they stillfeel unfulfilled?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Well, I think at that point, if you feel, when I feel
like I could very much relateto that if you feel like you're
ticking all the boxes but you'restill not happy, we need to
figure out, well, what does makeyou happy.
Money is not going to make youhappy.
I'll tell you that right now,money can help you purchase
things that may make you happy,such as some material things can
make us happy temporarily, butexperiences are ultimately the
(39:52):
things that bring us the mostjoy and long-term joy.
There's a whole chapter in mybook about money and happiness
that I loved writing because itwas like a really nice, it was a
happy thing to write about.
And the things that actuallybring us long-term joy actually
often don't involve money orvery little money.
They're things that are likecommunity, hanging out with
(40:13):
people and being social.
That makes us the most happyand most of the time you know
what is that like a cup ofcoffee or you can have a friend
over for free.
You know like it really doesn'tcost that much money just to be
social and that brings us somuch joy.
Or just finding what are someof your hobbies?
Do you have any?
If not, guess what you're goingto find you discover I really
(40:34):
like puzzling or reading orbeing part of a book club.
That is going to make youreally happy.
So I think when you feel likeyou've ticked all the boxes with
your money, you're still nothappy.
You need to go back to thedrawing board to figure out what
actually does make me happy andhow can I integrate that more
into my life.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Absolutely.
And even achieving goals, youknow, can you know?
Setting and achieving personalprofessional goals can create a
sense of accomplishment and joy,and that can boost your
confidence and motivation aswell.
I have to say I'm right into mylittle financial plan, which
was why this is so timely for meto talk to you, and also in
these uncertain times in whichwe're living.
(41:13):
But, jessica, if listeners takeaway one core message from your
book, what would you want it tobe?
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Oh yeah.
Well, I kind of end the book onthis, because it's something
that I've been telling peoplefor years and remind myself
often about is that, at the endof the day, you need to remind
yourself that you are more thanyour money.
I think too often we think ourwhole self-worth, our whole
identity, has to do with howmuch money we have, how much
(41:41):
money we earn, how much stuff wehave, how nice our house is.
Those things will only bringyou happiness for a very limited
amount of time, and we are morethan that.
You are a full human and yourvalue has honestly nothing to do
with how much money you have.
There's a lot of people with alot of money that are crappy
people.
There's a lot of amazing peopleout there that don't have that
(42:01):
much money, and so we need toreally rethink how do we value
ourselves and how can we, youknow, position ourselves and you
know our goals and just ourlife and what we're working
towards beyond just money, andremember that money is just a
tool.
It's just a, you know, a reallyimportant tool to help us meet
our needs and some of our dreamsand our wants, but it should
(42:25):
never be more than that.
It should never be the ultimategoal or the thing that's going
to solve everything, because ifyou get there you'll realize
it's not going to help, it, notgoing to get you to that, that
point of actual fulfillment andsatisfaction that's such great
advice, because I do hear a lotof people say if I just had more
money, everything would be finein my life and you know I would
(42:45):
be happy.
Then it's like no, you know, Iguarantee you there's a lot of
miserable lottery winners, youknow, and sometimes we think
that's, that's what's going tosolve it.
It's like a lot of people Iknow get that raise or there's a
windfall and they're stillmiserable.
So money isn't the thing that'smaybe going to help.
I mean, maybe it can help youbuy the things such as again,
(43:07):
therapy.
That can help you do someintrospection, but yeah, money
itself.
It likely will not solve allyour problems, I'll guarantee it
.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Therapy is the gift you give to yourself.
Jessica, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your timethis evening and, yeah, it was
awesome information.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Thanks so much for having me.
It was a delight talking to you.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Oh, you're so welcome .
My guest was Jessica Morehousefinancial educator, speaker,
bestselling author, host of theMore Money podcast, and I highly
recommend you read her book Idid called Everything but Money.
It is awesome and life changing.
And I'm Maureen McGrath,registered nurse, nurse,
(43:49):
continence advisor, sexualhealth educator, menopause
educator, and you know what.
Sometimes I am a money educatorwith patients who are in
relationships and I realizedthis is a money problem, this is
not a sex problem, and I'vebeen known to do spreadsheets,
but it should not be me givingadvice to people.
I'm trying to figure it outmyself.
So, once again, I recommend youread Jessica Morehouse's book
(44:11):
Everything but Money and if youfeel that you know somebody who
might benefit from tuning intothis episode, feel free to share
.
You can also text me at604-765-9287, or you can email
me nursetalk at hotmailcom.
Have a marvelous week of nospending.
Thanks for tuning in everybody.
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Honestly, I salute anyone who can do a new like no
spend month or a year.
I've never been able to, andthat's just like.
I think you know, certainthings work for certain people
and that's kind of you know, oneof the things the many things I
talk about my book is howpersonal finance is personal and
that's why a lot of us struggleis because we're trying to
maybe fit into someone else'sbox and we're like well, I tried
(00:24):
this and it didn't work.
It must be a me problem.
It's like or that just doesn'twork for you because that's just
not how your brain works.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good evening and welcome to Nurse Maureen's
Health Show Podcast, the podcastwhere we dive into the stories
that shape our healthrelationships and how we move
through the world.
I'm Maureen McGrath, registerednurse, nurse, continence
Advisor, nurse nurse continenceadvisor and sexual health and
menopause educator.
Tonight we're talking aboutsomething that touches every
part of our lives, especiallythese days, and it's associated
(00:51):
with a lot more uncertainty.
Now we're talking about money,but not in the way you might
expect.
In my clinical practice, I dealwith the sexual side of things
for patients like low desire,erectile dysfunction and
anorgasmia.
But even I find that, when itcomes to relationships,
differences in financial values,spending habits, debt or
(01:12):
financial stress can createmajor tension.
Money often represents morethan dollars.
It can symbolize control,security, freedom or even
self-worth.
Tonight on the podcast, I'mjoined by Jessica Morehouse,
financial educator, speaker,bestselling author and host of
the More Money podcast, to talkabout her eye-opening new book
(01:36):
Everything but Money.
In a time of financialuncertainty, jessica takes us
beyond the numbers to explorethe emotional weight we carry
around money, from shame andself-worth to how our financial
stories shape our relationships.
Good evening, jessica.
How are you?
I'm good.
Thanks so much for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure and Iabsolutely loved your book and I
(01:57):
recommend everybody read itbecause I feel like we're all
living with this secret shamearound money.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Oh yeah, I mean, yeah , I don't know if it's so secret
.
I mean, sometimes you just haveto ask someone one or two
questions.
You're like, oh yeah, this is aprominent feeling that a lot of
us I'd say the majority of usfeel, and a lot of it has to do
with, I mean, so many things.
But often it really stems from,you know, our childhoods and our
(02:24):
upbringing and we carry thisshame.
That's probably not even ours,it's usually our parents or
caregivers.
We carried it with us untilwe're adults and then we, you
know, are struggling with, youknow, our finances and all you
know, not even just necessarilylike the management of our
finances, but just how we feelwith our money and how you know
(02:44):
if we think we're good enough orsmart enough to learn how to
manage it better.
And that's definitely what Iwant to write this book for is
to help anyone who feels like,oh, I can't, possibly, or I'm
just not good at money, I'm notgood at budgeting, I'm not good
at this, this just isn't for me.
I've read some personal financebooks or I've tried doing the
(03:06):
things I learn online andthey're just not working for me.
And I want to present somereasons why that might be kind
of some internal reasons andsome solutions, so you can kind
of break free.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's interesting that you say that.
I will say I'm not good atbudgeting, I'm not good at
writing down.
I know everybody recommendswrite down every single dollar
that you spend.
I just can't do that.
It doesn't work for me.
What inspired you and this is adeeply personal book what
actually inspired you to writeEverything but Money, and why
now?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, it's actually funny that it came out this year
, just because I'm like wow, Ifeel like a lot of the topics
are very timely for what we'regoing on.
There's a lot more financialanxiety.
A lot more people have money onthe mind right now with what's
going on in the world.
And for me, I, you know, I'vebeen a financial educator,
content creator, for 13 plusyears and I've talked to so many
(04:00):
people, so many different ages,backgrounds, life experiences,
and I really want to you know,overall, like after all of these
years of talking with peopleand you know they come to me
because they're strugglingfinancially or they have a
question and they don't knowwhat the solution is, and often
they think that it's, you know,it's in the numbers, it's a
(04:20):
dollars and cents issue, it's amoney issue, but then when we
really dig deep, it's abouteverything but money.
It's deeper than money.
It's something else that'sgoing on that's preventing them
from doing some of the thingsthat are really pretty simple.
I was actually just talking tosomeone the other day about how
a lot of people either arelooking for that really easy,
(04:42):
quick solution thatunfortunately, they don't really
exist, and that's why there'sstill so many people that are,
you know, pumping out these getrich quick schemes that
ultimately never work, or theycome to the point where they
have learned all the things thatyou need to know to manage your
money properly.
And then they're like well,what's next?
It can't possibly be thatsimple.
There's something else rightand yeah.
(05:04):
Sometimes, no, the answer islike.
No, that's it Like you know Ialways kind of give the example
of like.
When it comes to fitness, weall actually do know the
fundamentals of being healthyand fit with our bodies.
We got to move and we got toeat healthy, and we sometimes
need to track if things aren'tlining up.
We need to know where theproblem areas is.
So we need that data and weneed to be consistent with it,
(05:25):
and that's kind of it.
And some people are like no,there's got to be more.
I must have to, you know,optimize this way, or get up at
four in the morning or whatever,and it's like it doesn't
actually have to be thatcomplicated.
And so money is the exact sameway If you want to reach your
goals and feel more secure andmore satisfied with your money.
It's actually pretty simple theactual practical things you
(05:46):
need to do.
However, when I say that, thenwhy are so many people still
struggling?
If it's that simple?
And that's because there's alot of other things underneath
the hood going on that ispreventing you from getting out
of your own way, and so I wantto write a book for everyone
I've ever talked to that hasfelt that way, but also I want
(06:06):
to do my own kind of personaljourney to find out what's going
on with me, because most peoplewould not, I think, build a
career like I have, and I neverexpected to have the career I do
as a financial educator.
But I was an arts kid, Ithought I was going to work in
film and TV and I love storiesand stuff like that and then
somehow took a left turn and nowdo what I do and I'm obsessed
(06:30):
with it.
I am so passionate aboutfinancial education and, you
know, learning about money.
Why is that?
And so I had to do someintrospection to find out.
Do I actually have an unhealthyrelationship with money?
And yeah, I did.
I've done a lot of self workand a lot of therapy throughout
the couple of years that it tookme to get the book done.
(06:50):
And yeah, I'm not perfecteither.
And so I really want to write abook that shows not only am I
being vulnerable and honest withyou, so hopefully I can
encourage you to do the same,but we all have our stuff and we
can't move forward or reachsome of those goals that we just
they're just so close to beingin our grasp but we can't figure
(07:11):
out.
Why are we not able to makethat you know extra mile.
Why can't we get there?
There's something in the way,and we just all need to figure
out what is that thing, and it'sdifferent for everybody, and so
I present a whole bunch ofpossibilities.
This could be you, this could beyou, this could be you and it
could be a combination.
You can have all of thesethings, and that is why it's so
(07:32):
difficult for you to keep a jobor put money in savings or start
investing or pay down debt orstop getting into the cycle of
debt.
There's all these reasons, andonce you know that, it's a lot
easier to then develop some sortof path or strategy to do
something different with yourmoney, so you can stop living
how you're living if you're notreally happy with it, and live
(07:55):
differently.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And what are some of those reasons that you referred
to as to why people can't getcontrol of their money?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So we kind of start in the book going back to your
kind of first money memory, soreally finding out what is your
origin story with your money.
How was that first experience?
And so I give a personal storyof myself when I was four years
old and how I stole a gumball atthe grocery store, was shamed
for it by my mom rightly so,because stealing is bad.
(08:26):
But I carried that sense ofshame for doing something
shameful and then also shamingmy family for, oh, this kid I
can't believe what a bad kidthat she stole something.
I carried that shame with meuntil I started writing my book.
I had no idea I was carryingthat.
So that was a big thing.
I didn didn't realize I wascarrying this big sense of shame
with money for my whole lifeand that prevented me from doing
(08:48):
a lot of things.
Because I was I.
You know I shame, can you know,manifest in so many different
areas, including I didn't thinkI was, yeah, good enough, smart
enough.
You know I should just stick inmy stay in my lane, things like
that.
And so starting with figuringout how does money make you feel
today and where did that start,can give you a good aha moment
(09:10):
and then really taking a lookalso at some of the feelings,
the values, the beliefs aboutmoney that, again, you may have
right now.
Where did those come from, andare those good or bad?
Do we need to let go of some ofthem?
So for me, I have, you know,from my parents and even my
grandparents sometimes I canreally go down that family line
(09:31):
this idea that I'll never haveany kind of wealth, even though
I'm working so hard to, you know, invest and save and be good
with my money, because no one inmy family has ever had wealth.
They've always just had justenough.
And so that's, you know,learning that and seeing that,
you think that that's your onlypath.
(09:53):
You can only just have justenough, nothing more, because
there's never been an example ofwealth.
So why would you even thinkthat you can achieve that?
So that was a mindset I had tolet go of, because I'm like
that's really unhealthy to thinkthat I'm preventing myself from
striving towards this reallybig goal of maybe, like early
retirement or just you know,being more comfortable than past
(10:15):
generations, because that was alesson I learned growing up.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
That's amazing.
I think I might need apsychologist for my money
history.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Hey, I saw several therapists while writing my book
to kind of do some digging.
So highly recommend All right,so great.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But you might be able to help me because you've been
and I haven't been yet.
But when you said what's yourearliest money memory, two
things came to mind.
And one was I remember, and Ihave no idea what age it was,
but my father said if you everhave the desire to steal
something, come home and I'llbuy it for you.
And I never did, I know cause.
I knew I could never come homeand say I felt like stealing
(10:53):
candy at the drugstore becausethat was associated with shame.
But that was also like I didn'treally have control over money.
I don't know, I'm not apsychologist, I just play one on
this podcast.
But, um, and the other moneymemory was my.
I went to my best friend'shouse with my mother and, uh,
and she was friends with hermother and we were going to go
(11:14):
to the store and my friend, mybest friend, came out with this
like little pouch of all thesedifferent coins, all this money
that she had earned and mymother gave me a dollar and the.
It was just such a starkdifference.
The money was given to me andshe had earned hers and I had
(11:34):
never really understood that akid could earn money and I I
just remember thinking like thatis so cool.
I had just so many mixedemotions about that.
Gee, I'd really like to earn myown money, that kind of a thing
.
So I know we can't get into,dive into my psyche, but it's
interesting to.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I mean, there's an exercise in the book that you
might want to go through toreally, yeah, dig deep into like
let's get some more detailsabout that and how does that
connect?
Now, because you may be able tomake some of those connections
to be like oh, that's why I dothis or I behave like this or I
feel like this.
It probably stems from some ofthose memories especially those
memories popped up real quickfor you.
(12:13):
You're like those were therethe whole time they were waiting
to be discovered.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
That's exactly right.
And then something else I'mjust curious about gender
differences, because I find alot of women because I put on
events and I hire people and I,you know, I do contract.
You know I hire contractors tohelp me out with certain
projects and that kind of thingand oftentimes they're women,
because it's a lot of women'swork that I do and you know,
women undervalue themselves orthey'll say, oh, maureen, I'll
(12:40):
just work for free because Ireally like you and I say no,
you can't work for free.
Or you know, they'll say say oh,I worked 10 hours but I'm just
going to charge you five.
I'm like, why?
Why are you diluting yourhourly wage?
You know, don't be ridiculous.
Uh, do men and women deal with?
Because I'll often ask men aswell, women don't negotiate.
There are so many things menhave no problem negotiating.
(13:00):
You know, I learned from a manthat there's always 10 in there,
you know, and so it's hard forwomen to negotiate.
Is it harder for women to talkabout money and deal with money?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I'd say so because I mean, when we look at history,
we were not part of thefinancial conversation until,
honestly, the past couple ofdecades, right, when I look at
my grandma and she really shewas the one who was running that
household and making sureeverything was okay and there
was four kids in that family.
I'm talking about my maternalgrandma she wasn't able to have
(13:32):
a credit card when she was, youknow, a mom and she had to give
up work.
She was a teacher and back inthat time she had to quit that
job once she got married.
And there are so, so there areso many elements where she had,
you know, could have had alittle bit of financial
independence, but because shechose to get married and have a
family, she had to give all ofthat up and she never really had
(13:54):
any financial independence atall.
And so that is what my mom sawand you know, of course, my mom
always worked and that was, shehad a lot of pride in that and
she was kind of of our moneymanager for our family and was a
really great representation ofoh yes, you can be part of those
money conversations, but evenstill, that was so recent, right
(14:15):
, that's only one generationfrom me.
A lot of the stereotypes thatare unfortunately still around
about how women, you know, oh,we shop too much.
We are, you know, riskintolerant.
We, you know, never negotiate.
(14:35):
We're bad with money, all thesestereotypes where, when you
actually look at the data, we'rereally good with money.
It's just the society, thesystems that were in place,
prevented us from ever being,you know, part of the
conversation, you know having aseat at the table, and so some
of us, you know, internalizesome of those things and we just
take ourselves out and we so wekind of, you know, maybe
(14:58):
believe some of thesestereotypes when they're
completely untrue, and so Ithink, yeah, part of it is just
like we were never allowed tohave any financial independence.
So to make these leaps andbounds in only a couple of
generations, I mean, we've doneamazing work when you think
about it, right, Like my grandmawasn't able to get credit.
She wasn't able to get a creditcard, Like how wild is that?
(15:18):
And so I think we're actuallydoing pretty good, but it's so
important for us, especially aswomen, to have more of
conversations so we can dobetter for the next generation,
next generation to keep movingthe dial.
Because, yeah, that wassomething I had to really
unlearn and relearn was how tonegotiate, how to speak up for
(15:39):
myself, how to do this, becausethat was I never learned any of
that stuff, Whereas, you know,maybe if I were a man, maybe I
would be part of thoseconversations as a kid.
You know the dads, you know,maybe if I were a man, maybe I
would be part of thoseconversations as a kid.
You know the dads, you knowtalking with their boys about
how to do this and that I don'tknow.
But yeah, it's definitelycommon, it's very common.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Absolutely, and I think it's.
You know, we might be good atit but maybe we're not good at
it all the time.
You know everything waxes andwanes in life, you know, and
sometimes you're better withyour finances than than at other
times.
Something my accountant fatherdid teach me was put and I was
an obedient child, keep that inmind but he'd say, put 14% of
your paycheck away, which I did,and that was highly beneficial.
(16:23):
But you know what.
It wasn't enough.
You know it was not enough ofthe control.
You know what I mean To havethat agency over my money and,
more importantly, my husband'smoney Just kidding Cause his was
mine.
He has no interest and I reallydon't even talk to him about
money, but I'll talk to mysisters about my little like my
little TikTok, you know no spendyear that we talked about
(16:46):
before the show.
Another thing that I'm doing isI say this is my year of
multiple income streams.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
You know and so I do these little intentional things.
But you know, maybe I had aslightly better foundation
around money growing up in termsof, but you know, my mother was
entirely opposite of my fatherin terms of just spend, spend,
spend.
You only live once.
But she grew up with money andso that was a different.
That was probably a differentstory as well, where my father's
(17:17):
family struggled much more so,but you know they still.
You know my grandmother managedto make a very good life for
all of them.
You know you, people strugglewe talked about with shame
around money, either not havingenough, not knowing what to do
with it.
What helped you break free fromthat shame and what do you
recommend for people listeningwho might have that shame or not
(17:41):
even realize that they havethat shame around money?
And I can see where it's peopleit's.
It's tied to how they feelabout themselves.
They compare themselves withhow much money somebody has.
There's always going to besomebody with more and somebody
with less, and it's not aboutthat, is it?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
No, yeah, there's a big portion of one chapter in my
book that really talks aboutshame, because that is one of
the most common feelings Idiscovered when I was doing a
lot of interviews and just liketalking to people over the years
that they had associated withmoney, and so there's so many
different forms of shame, and Ithink it's really important for
me to also properly describewhat is shame, because some
(18:18):
people confuse it with guilt,and they're very different
things.
Shame is the feeling thatthere's something fundamentally
wrong with you, and so if youhave shame with money, you're
going to think that there'ssomething fundamentally wrong
with you, and so you, if youhave shame with money, you're
going to think that there'ssomething fundamentally wrong
with you and your money.
You're just like we kind oftalked about I'm not good with
money, I'm bad with money.
If you have these ideas thatthis is part of your identity,
(18:41):
how that's very difficult foryou to then, ok, well, if I just
you know, do this, this andthis, start a budget and put you
know 14% away into savings,everything will be good.
No, because you think thatfundamentally, there's something
wrong with you, and so we needto really identify what is this
sense of shame.
What is it?
(19:01):
Was it really?
Because there's so manydifferent forms it could be
shame from growing up with lessif you were kind of low income,
or even shame of growing up withmore and feeling kind of bad
for maybe how much you hadcompared to your neighbors.
So there's so many differentforms and really identifying
where did that shame come fromand how is it preventing you
(19:22):
from living what I call afinancially fulfilled life, so
just living your most fulfilledlife and how money can kind of
help you get there, and untilyou really do that work, you're
just going to be doing the samecycle forever and ever.
And so for me, that was a bigwake up call for me, because I
didn't realize that my shame waspreventing me from ever feeling
(19:44):
satisfied with my money.
No matter what I achieved, whatmilestone I achieved with my
money, I still never felt goodenough.
I always thought, well, butthere's so and so out there who
has more or did this and youdidn't do this.
So I was always comparingmyself to someone else, and so I
would always have to push thatgoalpost a little bit further,
(20:05):
and so I would never besatisfied, no matter how good I
was being with my money.
It was never good enough and soI'm like well, that's not a
good place to live and I don'twant to feel like that forever.
And so I had to do a lot ofself-work to make sure that
shame when it reared its uglyhead and it still does, because
it's just part of my DNA.
I have to really be mindful ofthat and be like no, I'm not
(20:25):
letting it dictate my financialdecisions or how I feel about
myself and my future and mypotential.
I'm not doing that anymorebecause I know how I felt when I
did.
Let it kind of run the show andit wasn't healthy, and so it's
a practice, like pretty mucheverything in my book is.
You know, here are the issues,here are some solutions, but
(20:47):
it's a practice.
You're going to have tocontinue to practice.
It's not a cure, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Absolutely.
And then you said shame is verydifferent from guilt.
And I just want to tell maybethis is a shame story, but I
went to visit my parents inFlorida and now I came from
Canada and so I hadn't exchangedmy money and I had no cash when
I got down there and I remembermy father saying you know, your
sister would have had this alltied up, you know she'd have had
(21:12):
the cash, like I.
I felt terrible and I never,ever, ever have done that.
Since you know, it's just a oneliner, people have to say to me
and I'm like shocked intochanging my behavior I will
always have cash Not going tothe US, these days too much but
you know, I will always havecash with me when, when I go now
(21:33):
, just because of that one thing.
But you're right, I felt, youknow, shamed by that.
And but what is guilt asopposed to shame?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So guilt is a lot easier of a feeling to kind of
rectify.
It is the feeling that you didsomething wrong, and so it's
more of a behavior.
It's like you know, if I mean,really what you're kind of
describing is more, maybe youwere kind of guilted into not
doing that action again, or theinaction such as right, yeah,
you know you should have, youknow, converted some of your
currency and brought some ofthat with you, and so you're
(22:01):
like, oh yeah, you're right, Ifeel kind of bad about that, I'm
not going to do that again.
And then you change yourbehavior and you're better for
it.
But the shame like you know,the tone definitely was a bit
shameful in that, and so it'sreally important to really, you
know, make sure we understandthat there's guilt and there's
shame.
And when shame is involved.
(22:36):
We need to really take a lookat that and really even tell
ourselves yeah, I understandthat and hey, I was able to
learn a really helpful lesson,but I need to let go of that
shame part because I know I'mnot a bad person or I'm
fundamentally flawed.
That's not gonna help me movingforward.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yes, exactly, and I think it is.
Probably it was much more of aguilty you know, guilty
narrative than the shame thing,but it did change my behavior
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you know, sometimes people don'tknow what to do with their
money.
And then there's thesemillionaires, dare I say, which
you know won't really get youfar today either, being a
(24:04):
millionaire, but I, I, I sort ofdeem them.
You know, I have, I havemillionaire friends who couch
surf.
I have millionaire friends whowill never, never have their
wallet with them.
I have millionaire friends,people who have plenty of money
and yet they still can't spend.
What are those issues?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Oh man, I mean, we could really have a whole other
discussion about that.
I mean, that's the thing.
I think a lot of people andthis is something I talk about
in the book a lot of peoplethink that if I had more money
then all my problems would goaway.
Like the money is the solution.
And it can be when we'retalking about an actual
financial problem.
So if you, if your income isnot enough to meet your basic
(24:48):
needs, more money is thesolution to that problem, it
will solve that problem.
But if you know, I work with anumber of clients, one on one,
who it's not an income issue.
We take a look at theirspending and their income and we
see, oh well, the problem isthe spending.
That's very easy to fix becausewe can run the numbers.
We're like, well, we need tocut this, cut this and
(25:10):
reorganize this and put thisinto savings.
And now we've got a balancedbudget.
But the problem I was seeingrecurring was they would come
back a month or two later andthey wouldn't make any progress.
They weren't sticking to thatbudget.
Why is that?
Or I have some clients who, youknow, make a decent income, but
they are just so terrified tospend their money.
They are always worried that, oh, but I don't want to spend this
(25:34):
, because what if somethinghappens?
And you're like where does thisfear come from?
That's also not healthy, too,being like a hoarder of your
money.
You need to spend your money,that's what it's for.
You can't, you know, like thecliches, like you can't take it
with you.
So you want to have money insavings for the future, but you
shouldn't be paralyzed with fearthat if you buy a latte, you're
(25:54):
going need to have balance, andso it's really important to
figure out, speaking of like,what's that kind of anchor that
will make you feel good andsecure with your money, and also
figuring out what do youactually want in life and how
can money help you get there.
And then what is in your way?
(26:14):
What are those feelings?
It could be shame, it could befear, it could be anxiety.
There's all these things thatare likely in your way
preventing you from just feelinggood about your money.
And that's really the wholepoint of the book is I want you
to feel good about your money,because it should make you feel
good.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Something that makes me very uncomfortable and and I
also think people think I'm aneasy mark because I, I will foot
the bill.
You know I will.
But I get nervous if peoplearen't pulling out their credit
cards quickly enough when thebill comes, and and or that you
know they've whatever, maybegone somewhere and and then it's
(26:51):
time for the bill and theydon't move, and then you feel
like you have to pay and thenthey're like oh, thank you, oh
really, oh no, that's when youhave to speak up to be like, and
then they're like oh, thank you, oh really, oh no, that's when
you have to speak up to be likeso we're all splitting the bill,
right, or we're all just payingfor our meals individually,
right?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Like sometimes you have to be that person because
again, yeah, you could be.
I think I kind of give anexample in my book, a story of a
woman who she because her kindof some past, uh trauma in a
past relationship where therewas some financial abuse going
on she, when there was a a groupdinner with a bunch of friends,
(27:27):
she had friends who's like, hey, let's get this expensive wine.
And in her mind she's like Ireally can't afford to do that.
Now I'm worried, I'm going togo into debt because I'm
terrified to say that I can'tafford that or I don't want to
pay for your wine.
I don't even want wine, andthat's a real thing.
A lot of people would rathertake on that financial burden of
putting on their credit cardand then getting into credit
(27:48):
card debt because they're tooafraid to voice their needs and
their concerns, or that I don'twant to pay for you and I
shouldn't have to pay for you.
You should pay for yourself,because now you're taking
advantage of me and I'm the onethat has to deal with the
repercussions of this.
But that's so difficult becauseyou have to be vulnerable to
speak your truth and to say,yeah, I don't want to pay for
(28:09):
your meal.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
You should pay for your own meal.
That's why we're all here.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
But that's really difficult to do.
But again, that comes down to apractice of speaking up for
yourself and protecting yourmoney, and I always tell people
that if you need a kind of newframe of mind for money
management why it's important,think of it as this is the
ultimate form of self-care.
It's not just a facial mask anda bath.
If you really want to performself-care, making sure that your
(28:37):
money is right and you'retaking care of your finances is
the best way to do it, becauseyou're taking care of present to
you, but also future.
You Like.
I like to always think ofJessica in her, you know, 60s,
70s, in retirement, and Jessicaright now I'm taking care of her
, because who else is going totake care of her?
It's going to be much moredifficult for me to make money
when I'm at that age and maybecan't work or you know, who
(29:00):
knows what's going to happen.
So we need to really, you know,protect ourselves right now in
our future, and sometimes thatreally gets people like, oh, I
never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That's right.
And you hear people saying youknow, I'm on a fixed income, so
that.
So that means what that meansyou're not going to pay.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
You're like, okay, how's that my problem?
Like we shouldn't have to alsotake on other people's financial
burdens and problems, right?
I know sometimes you feel like,oh, I feel bad, or I know I
earn more than that person, so Ishould, you know, take care of
them.
Well, you need to take it,You've got to put that you know,
I know it's a cliche again, butput that mask on yourself and
on the plane before you can dothat to someone else.
(29:38):
Because again, who's going totake care of you if you're
always taking care of someoneelse and then you know, by the
time it comes down to youthere's nothing left.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
And I have to say I am guilty of that.
You know I was also raised likepay your own way but be
generous, like a millionmessages around money.
But you know I've been at thesupermarket where somebody
didn't have their credit card afriend and you know I paid for
their groceries and then theynever paid me back.
Yeah, you know, they just, butit's, it's, that's on me,
(30:06):
because I didn't say hey, youowe me $56 for the, for the
groceries that I just bought foryour, you know, living in your
two and a half million dollarhouse there.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh yeah, if that's the case, they should pay you
back.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Of course I think regardless even if they're not.
I mean, you know, I thinkpeople should pay their way, but
we're so uncomfortable aroundmoney.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Oh, we're so uncomfortable talking about
money or especially asking formoney.
No one wants to ask for money,right?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, feeling because you feel like you're doing
something wrong.
But most of us we're asking formoney because, well, I footed
the bill and you said that youwere going to pay me back and
then you just haven't, and soagain it's like you've got to
protect yourself.
Or if it's a one-time thinglike, for example, me and my
(30:54):
family we in general don't have,we don't borrow money from each
other If we're going to givemoney to somebody, it's a gift
and that is kind of theunderstanding, because then it's
like a one-time special, youknow it's a gift, and then
there's kind of no awkwardness,um, but there's still this
understanding of this is what itis.
And also it's not a recurringthing, because I think there's
(31:16):
been other family members youknow, probably my parents who've
had other financial situationswhere they lent money and never
got paid back, and so they'relike, no, we don't do that
anymore.
If we're going to give money,we're not having any
expectations, but we have thisunderstanding of that.
So really setting thoseboundaries, I think, is what
we're kind of getting at is youneed to have those boundaries
and you need to speak up foryourself.
And if you do find a friend isconstantly forgetting their
(31:39):
wallet or expecting you to pay.
You got to rethink yourrelationship with that friend
and money and setting someboundaries.
And sometimes it's awkward,especially if you've let it go
on for a while a couple ofmonths, a couple of years and so
now they just expect you to andyou're like I don't like this
and so you need to change it andit's going to be awkward, but
(31:59):
you're going to be glad you didit.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yes, exactly, and you know I can be guilty of all
those things and but you know, Ifeel like with the bit of
agency or power that I've takenback as a result of that little
TikTok video that I saw onesummer night, you know, I feel
like I'm better able to do thosethings with less, if you will.
Resentment, you know, becausewe do.
(32:24):
We can get resentful when youknow it's the same person who's
you know, forgetting theirwallet all the time at the spa
and those expensive services.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
No kidding, I feel like, yeah, again, it's like you
could afford to pay me back.
And sometimes it is about like,okay, just send them a text
after, right after, so theydon't forget.
And then, if again you're likehanding them for money, you're
like, okay, well, I know thisnow and this is.
Then.
You know, next time we go tothe spa and they forget their
wallet, I'll be like, wow, thatreally sucks for you.
Did you want to reschedule?
(33:00):
Exactly, and we're not doingthis because I know what
happened.
Now you're taking advantage ofme for again their own money
issues.
You know who knows why peopledo the things that they do and
it's.
But again it's like that's notyour problem.
You're not their therapist.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Absolutely.
Speaking of therapists.
However, you mentioned thattherapy played a role in your
journey and how important isemotional or mental health in
financial wellness.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Oh, it's so important Because, again, most people
think money is just aboutdollars and cents and just
balancing the budget.
But no, it's super emotional.
That's why we make most of ourdecisions with money is when
emotions come into play.
I mean, I've been having somany conversations the past
couple months of telling peopleplease do not let your emotions
(33:45):
dictate your financial decisionmaking.
Right now, especially withwhat's going on in the stock
market, A lot of people arepanicking and like I'm going to
sell everything because I'm justafraid of what's happening and
I'm like please don't do thatBecause that's an emotional
reaction.
What you should be doing withyour money, especially when it
comes to like you're investingand you know, say, you're saving
for retirement is to not touchthose things Because there's so
(34:08):
much I mean we could look backfive years of COVID and so many
people did that.
They freaked out.
The stock market was going down, there's this new pandemic,
everything shutting down.
People were so emotional and,instead of just not touching
their money, they did everythingwrong with their money.
So they sold their investmentsand then it stayed in cash and
then, when the stock marketrebounded which it did really
(34:29):
quickly it was more expensivefor them to buy back their
investments that they just sold,and so they were in a worse
financial position.
Or we saw a lot about in 2020and then onward.
So many people were stuck athome, and what did they do?
Because they were bored oremotional or anxious, they
shopped online and spent a tonof money on stuff that they
didn't need that they probablylater regretted, Right.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
That is so true.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
So we really need to, every time we make a financial
decision, small or big, reallytake a check on yourself, on how
do I feel right now?
Like, what am I feeling?
Am I feeling good?
Am I feeling kind of anxious?
Am I kind of fearful?
What's going on with me?
And then really take a look at,kind of like what you were
doing is do I need this?
(35:14):
Is this actually something Ineed, or do I just?
Am I just looking for thatdopamine hit Because I'm just
not doing really well and I justneed something?
I need something right now, andif that's the case, then we need
to step away, because the bestthing you can do when it comes
to any kind of financialdecision making is to basically
be an emotionalist robot.
Because, when it comes to ourhuman behavior and our emotions,
(35:37):
we've got these biases andthese instincts that are telling
us to do one thing, becausethey were built, developed in us
thousands and thousands ofyears ago to help us survive.
But these biases never factoredin modern finance, and so most
of your instincts, we actuallyneed to ignore them, because if
we panic, sell our investments,because we feel like, oh, we
(35:59):
need to run away from thisthreat, we're going to regret it
later, and so what I alwaystell people is if you're feeling
emotional, do nothing, or maybedo the opposite of what you
think you should do.
If you think you need to buysomething, let's not buy
something.
Or if you feel like you need tosell your investments, maybe we
should continue investing,because now the stock market is
(36:20):
on sale, so this is actually areally great opportunity.
This is how a lot of peoplebuild wealth is during those
downs in the market, they keepon buying and then, when it goes
back up, they're wealthier.
So do nothing or do theopposite is what I would
recommend.
If you're feeling emotional.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Listen, I really appreciate that advice because
you know a lot of people that Iknow have, you know, turned over
into a cash position in thestock market, sold everything
and it's like I didn't reallyknow what to do there.
Whether to you know, stay thecourse.
And I just thought you knowwhat.
Ignore it, don't even look atit.
Everyone's telling me how muchthey lost.
(36:53):
I'm like, forget it.
It's a paper loss number one.
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Don't look at it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
No, I'm not looking at it, I'm in complete denial,
which is not a very healthy,mentally healthy way.
But whatever Denial and I'm notgoing to do anything about that
, and I think these arecertainly uncertain times but,
as you say, it can be a verygood way to build wealth when
(37:19):
the stock market goes down, aswe saw in the 2008 crash and
then also during the pandemic aswell.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Well, that's the thing.
This is cyclical.
This isn't the first time thishas happened.
Yeah, the environment, thecircumstances are a bit
different, but it's stillsimilar to 2020, 2008, you know,
2000, 2001.
There's always been some sortof economic or stock market
crisis and, time and time again,the people who build wealth are
(37:42):
the people who double down andkeep on investing or just
continue with their investmentplan.
If they have these regularcontributions once a month, they
put this amount into theirinvestments.
Those are the people that didokay.
The ones who you hear in thenews are like I lost my
retirement savings that'sbecause they sold when
everything was crashing and theynever got back in If they just
(38:04):
held on to this roller coaster,which is what it feels like they
would, you know.
again, I always tell people lookat the, you know, s&p 500 or
S&P TSX composite index, theseindexes that represent the US
stock market, the Canadian stockmarket.
Every time it goes down, iteventually goes back up to a
higher peak.
So if you were just to stay inthe market and literally not
(38:25):
even touch your investments, ifyou stayed the course, you would
be in a better position once itrecovered and it always
recovers.
But you have to be very patient.
Sometimes it takes years torecover, as we say, you know,
with the Great Recession thathit people hard, I mean.
I graduated university in 2009.
I'm like this is a terribletime to start finding a job, but
(38:48):
things rebounded and thingswere even better once they
recovered, and so you just needto stay the course, and I always
tell people, sometimes justlooking at history and what you
should and shouldn't do so youdon't repeat the mistakes of the
past.
That's kind of one thing thatmight give you a little calmness
.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Exactly, and instead of freaking out everybody, read
Jessica Morehouse's bookEverything but Money and also
listen to her amazing podcast,the More Money Podcast.
Jessica, it's just been awesome.
I have a couple more questionsfor you.
What advice would you give tosomeone who feels like they're
checking all the boxes?
They have a good job, they havea savings account, they have
(39:26):
some investments, but they stillfeel unfulfilled?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Well, I think at that point, if you feel, when I feel
like I could very much relateto that if you feel like you're
ticking all the boxes but you'restill not happy, we need to
figure out, well, what does makeyou happy.
Money is not going to make youhappy.
I'll tell you that right now,money can help you purchase
things that may make you happy,such as some material things can
make us happy temporarily, butexperiences are ultimately the
(39:52):
things that bring us the mostjoy and long-term joy.
There's a whole chapter in mybook about money and happiness
that I loved writing because itwas like a really nice, it was a
happy thing to write about.
And the things that actuallybring us long-term joy actually
often don't involve money orvery little money.
They're things that are likecommunity, hanging out with
(40:13):
people and being social.
That makes us the most happyand most of the time you know
what is that like a cup ofcoffee or you can have a friend
over for free.
You know like it really doesn'tcost that much money just to be
social and that brings us somuch joy.
Or just finding what are someof your hobbies?
Do you have any?
If not, guess what you're goingto find you discover I really
(40:34):
like puzzling or reading orbeing part of a book club.
That is going to make youreally happy.
So I think when you feel likeyou've ticked all the boxes with
your money, you're still nothappy.
You need to go back to thedrawing board to figure out what
actually does make me happy andhow can I integrate that more
into my life.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Absolutely.
And even achieving goals, youknow, can you know?
Setting and achieving personalprofessional goals can create a
sense of accomplishment and joy,and that can boost your
confidence and motivation aswell.
I have to say I'm right into mylittle financial plan, which
was why this is so timely for meto talk to you, and also in
these uncertain times in whichwe're living.
(41:13):
But, jessica, if listeners takeaway one core message from your
book, what would you want it tobe?
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Oh yeah.
Well, I kind of end the book onthis, because it's something
that I've been telling peoplefor years and remind myself
often about is that, at the endof the day, you need to remind
yourself that you are more thanyour money.
I think too often we think ourwhole self-worth, our whole
identity, has to do with howmuch money we have, how much
(41:41):
money we earn, how much stuff wehave, how nice our house is.
Those things will only bringyou happiness for a very limited
amount of time, and we are morethan that.
You are a full human and yourvalue has honestly nothing to do
with how much money you have.
There's a lot of people with alot of money that are crappy
people.
There's a lot of amazing peopleout there that don't have that
(42:01):
much money, and so we need toreally rethink how do we value
ourselves and how can we, youknow, position ourselves and you
know our goals and just ourlife and what we're working
towards beyond just money, andremember that money is just a
tool.
It's just a, you know, a reallyimportant tool to help us meet
our needs and some of our dreamsand our wants, but it should
(42:25):
never be more than that.
It should never be the ultimategoal or the thing that's going
to solve everything, because ifyou get there you'll realize
it's not going to help, it, notgoing to get you to that, that
point of actual fulfillment andsatisfaction that's such great
advice, because I do hear a lotof people say if I just had more
money, everything would be finein my life and you know I would
(42:45):
be happy.
Then it's like no, you know, Iguarantee you there's a lot of
miserable lottery winners, youknow, and sometimes we think
that's, that's what's going tosolve it.
It's like a lot of people Iknow get that raise or there's a
windfall and they're stillmiserable.
So money isn't the thing that'smaybe going to help.
I mean, maybe it can help youbuy the things such as again,
(43:07):
therapy.
That can help you do someintrospection, but yeah, money
itself.
It likely will not solve allyour problems, I'll guarantee it
.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Therapy is the gift you give to yourself.
Jessica, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your timethis evening and, yeah, it was
awesome information.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Thanks so much for having me.
It was a delight talking to you.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Oh, you're so welcome .
My guest was Jessica Morehousefinancial educator, speaker,
bestselling author, host of theMore Money podcast, and I highly
recommend you read her book Idid called Everything but Money.
It is awesome and life changing.
And I'm Maureen McGrath,registered nurse, nurse,
(43:49):
continence advisor, sexualhealth educator, menopause
educator, and you know what.
Sometimes I am a money educatorwith patients who are in
relationships and I realizedthis is a money problem, this is
not a sex problem, and I'vebeen known to do spreadsheets,
but it should not be me givingadvice to people.
I'm trying to figure it outmyself.
So, once again, I recommend youread Jessica Morehouse's book
(44:11):
Everything but Money and if youfeel that you know somebody who
might benefit from tuning intothis episode, feel free to share
.
You can also text me at604-765-9287, or you can email
me nursetalk at hotmailcom.
Have a marvelous week of nospending.
Thanks for tuning in everybody.
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