Episode Transcript
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Maureen McGrath (00:02):
Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show
Podcast, where we dive into themost compelling conversations
about health relationships andthe human experience.
Today, we're exploring a topicthat touches the lives of
countless families; autism.
Good evening.
I'm Maureen McGrath, registerednurse, nurse, continence
advisor, sexual health educator,and joining me on the line from
(00:23):
Ottawa, Canada, is NatachaRaphael, author of "When Life
Becomes Autism (00:26):
A Parent's Guide to Supporting a Neurodivergent
Child.
With a deep understanding of thechallenges and joys of raising
a neurodivergent child, Natachaoffers an insightful,
compassionate and practicalguide for parents navigating
this journey.
Her book blends heartfeltstorytelling with science-backed
strategies empowering familiesto create a nurturing and
(00:48):
supportive environment for theirchildren.
It's also extremely educational, from her comprehensive review
of developmental milestones tosigns and symptoms and successes
.
Her own story is unique andbeautiful and starts out with
the birth of her beautiful twinsons.
In our conversation today,we'll discuss the inspiration
behind her book, the BiggestMisconceptions About Autism and
(01:10):
how Families Can Foster StrongerRelationships Between
Neurodivergent and NeurotypicalSiblings.
Whether you're a parent, aneducator, a physician, a nurse
or simply somebody who wants tobetter understand the autism
experience, this episode is foryou.
So let's get started.
Welcome, Natacha.
How are you?
Natacha Raphael (01:30):
Hi, Maureen, thank you so much for having me
today.
I'm doing great Thanks.
Maureen McGrath (01:34):
I really appreciate you coming on.
I have to say I loved your bookfrom so many perspectives.
It was so comprehensive.
You explained everything insuch detail, yet it had
heartfelt stories and science.
I mean, it was just.
It was just a fantastic mix ofeverything that is necessary to
(01:55):
understand autism.
So I'd like to ask you whatinspired you to write this book
and how does it reflect yourpersonal experiences with autism
?
Natacha Raphael (02:12):
I was inspired to write the book mostly because
every time that I was droppingoff my son at the clinic, the
center where he goes throughoutactually not just now, but
throughout his journey withautism, I always found myself
having discussions with parentsor caregivers that were there
and giving them tips and tricksof well, did you speak to the
(02:32):
school about this?
Did you try to meet with theprincipal about that, or did you
try that center or that therapy?
And last year I was actuallyspeaking to a friend of mine who
was writing a book on acompletely different topic that
had nothing to do with autism,and as she was speaking, I'm
like well, maybe instead ofrandomly giving tips and tricks
(02:54):
to people, maybe I could alsoput it in a book.
And that's pretty much how thebook came to fruition.
Maureen McGrath (02:59):
And I'm so glad you did because it's going to
benefit so many people.
Your story starts out with thebirth of your twin sons a number
of years ago.
Can you share a bit about that?
Natacha Raphael (03:11):
Yeah.
So I was very surprised to knowthat I was having twins, as you
can imagine, and honestly, thefirst few weeks, months,
actually the first year and ahalf, I wouldn't have suspected
anything out of the ordinary.
They were developing fine andthey were hitting the milestones
(03:37):
, as one of the chapters that Ihave in the book.
And although we never like tocompare children, when you have
twins you see development infront of your eyes.
You see one child, you know,progressing and hitting the
milestones from a developmentstandpoint, as it should, and
then you see another childliterally in front of your eyes,
(04:00):
not going in the same route.
And that's pretty much whathappened with my kids, like they
were babies and just doing whatbabies do.
And at a certain point one ofmy Adam I'll name him Adam was
just, you know, doing thechoo-choo trains and singing
along with the nursery songs andso on, and Andrew wasn't.
(04:22):
Andrew was spinning andflapping his hands and I was
like, oh, maybe he's trying topretend to be a bird, and I
wasn't exactly sure what washappening.
Actually, I thought it was, Ithought it was an auditory
problem, I thought it was hisears.
Maureen McGrath (04:37):
Oh, and that's one of the biggest challenges
about autism why don't we, forthe listeners, explain what
exactly, if you can, if I usethat word very gingerly, because
you can't really exactly defineit.
But what is autism?
Because it is a spectrum, Iunderstand.
Natacha Raphael (04:52):
Correct.
So autism is a spectrum andmany define it as a difficulty
from a social skills and socialcommunication difficulty.
Social skills and socialcommunication difficulty and,
honestly, the first thing thatcame to my mind when I received
the diagnosis, I thought of Rainman and Dustin Hoffman in that
(05:17):
movie.
That's the only thing that cameinto my mind at that point in
time, but no, in reality cameinto my mind at that point in
time, but no, in reality it'sreally a neurological disorder
and it really affects socialskills and social communications
(05:37):
.
That's a very broad definition,by the way, Because, as you
said, it's a spectrum and noteverybody.
There are elements of autismthat you'll say oh well, this is
typically an autistic trait,but everyone has it at different
levels.
Some people are verbal, Somepeople are nonverbal, Some
people you would never eventhink that they have autism
because they could have aperfectly fine conversation with
(06:00):
you, but they will miss themark.
They will miss the mark onother social interactions and
social skills.
Maureen McGrath (06:08):
Right, you know I heard Amy Schumer, the
comedian, say she was talkingabout her husband who was
diagnosed to be autistic or onthe spectrum later in life as an
adult, and she was talkingabout just how much she loved
him and how she'd, you know,been with as only Amy can
disclose how she'd been with somany men, and but you know she
(06:28):
would choose him over any ofthem, any day of the week, any
time of the day.
And then she said somethinginteresting, you know.
She said aren't we all on thespectrum?
After all?
You know, and I think there'ssome truth to that we all have
our, dare I say, quirky waysabout us, or rituals or habits,
(06:49):
or call it whatever you want.
You go through an exhaustivelist.
I love this book, by the way, ifI haven't said that already,
but as a nurse and as a parentand as an aunt, as an educator,
you go through an exhaustivelist of autism specific
behaviors for parents to watchout for.
(07:09):
And I know, you know not only doparents of twins, who are
fortunate to have twins, comparetheir children, or, if they
have more than one child, theycompare their children, but we
also compare our babies to otherpeople's babies as well and,
you know, are they advancing inthe way that they should?
But what are some of thebehaviors that parents should be
watching out for and what isthe criteria for diagnosis?
(07:33):
Like in my clinic, for example,I'll hear a parent say, you
know, my child does, has anxietyand is toe walking, and they're
, you know, six years of age andyou know.
So how many of these symptomsdo people need?
And you know how is itdiagnosed, because it was an
extensive list and youcategorized it between motor
(07:54):
skills and social skills.
So I mean, I would imagine itwould not be the easiest
diagnosis to make to make Right.
Natacha Raphael (08:07):
So obviously I won't be able to speak as a
physician, but what I can say isthat once, as a parent, when
you see, for example, your child, you know spinning or flapping
their hands or rocking theirbodies or putting their hands on
their ears, because even thoughthe TV is not particularly loud
(08:27):
, your child isn't able tosustain the sound or music, same
thing or anything other.
I remember for a while, andrew,we would go to the store, the
supermarket, and he would justblock his ears, the supermarket
and he would just block his ears.
If you mentioned it earlier,tiptoeing, a very big one, that
(08:50):
is, if I could say, an easierone to catch is eye contact.
And if you tell your child, oh,look at the bird.
And as you're saying, look atthe bird, you're actually
pointing at the bird and yourchild isn't following your
finger.
That's also another easy one,depending on the age of the
(09:15):
child.
If your child isn't able to bein the room with other children
and, let's say, even though verysmall children are going to be
territorial and they're going tosay like this, this is my doll,
or this is my toy, or what haveyou, at the same time they are
able to sit together and in someway kind of work, play together
.
An autistic child will willwill shy away from that from a
(09:36):
social perspective and go veryfurther away from the other
children and won't want to playor be around the other children.
Away from the other childrenand won't want to play or be
around the other children.
So those are just cues that youknow if your child isn't
following just basic steps.
Those are things that maybe youcould open your eyes towards
and ask yourself am I missingsomething here?
(09:58):
And definitely those werethings that helped me want to
seek more attention.
As I said earlier, I thought hecouldn't hear us because he
wasn't singing along with thenursery rhyme, he wasn't
responding to his name.
I thought it was an auditoryproblem.
And so even if you have asuspicion, you know, maybe you
(10:21):
won't be able to get thediagnosis right away and maybe
you'll need to do a little bitof digging.
And that's the whole purpose ofthe book.
A lot of parts across the bookI encourage parents to play the
investigator and ask questionsand not to shy away from
questions, because maybe it'snot autism, you know, maybe it's
another, another comorbidity,another comorbidity like ADHD or
(10:51):
yeah, which is not uncommon inneurodivergent people.
Maureen McGrath (10:52):
You, it must have been difficult.
You, you mentioned, at 18months you started to notice a
significant difference betweenyour boys, adam and Andrew.
How long did it take to finallyrealize the diagnosis?
And then, what was that likeraising a neurotypical child and
a neurodivergent child?
Natacha Raphael (11:31):
The moment that I noticed that there were
differences, significantdifferences, to seeing my family
doctor because we thought itwas it could be auditory.
The first person we met was awas an.
Well, she had both has.
She's.
A was an auditory specialistbut she also was a speech
pathologist and right away shesaid your son could hear me,
your son does not have anauditory problem.
But she kind of hinted andbecause it's a sensitive topic,
(11:53):
not every parent wants to hearit's possibly autism.
So she was actually very, verysensitive about it and she
didn't just say autism, she justsaid you know, you might want
to do a bit of research in termsof development.
And she gave me the report togive to the physician.
Obviously, I opened the reportand I read it on the spot and by
(12:14):
the time I saw my family doctorfor a follow up I had already
done a lot of the research andso I met with the doctor.
He sent us to see apediatrician, a specialized
pediatrician, and by the timethe pediatrician did the full
diagnosis, it was another, so hehad just turned two.
(12:37):
So from 18 months to him beingtwo, so about six months it took
to actually get the fulldiagnosis, the official
diagnosis and for your secondquestion about raising a typical
and neurotypical child.
Maureen McGrath (12:54):
Well, I guess what I meant was what was it
like to hear that news?
I have a neurotypical child andI have a neurodivergent child.
I'm sure that wasn't yourthought, but you know how am I
going to, you know, manage thisdeal with this.
I mean, on some levels it canbe heartbreaking, you know, but
on other levels it's tremendousjoy, you know.
(13:17):
So just what was that like interms of looking at it from the
perspective of having your twins?
So, as you said, I wasdevastated because I was mostly
scared, and I was devastatedbecause I did.
First of all, I, as I saidearlier, I didn't even know what
it meant and the first thing Ihad in my mind was Dustin
(13:38):
Hoffman in a movie countingcards.
So all I could think of wasAndrew in a center somewhere
counting cards, and so my firstreaction was well, what will the
future hold for him?
We're not a society that isvery open and understands what
(13:59):
that means, and so right away mybrain went to the future.
And what will his trajectory beLike?
What will school be like forhim?
And then to your point, youknow, how will I manage that
difference of raising and eventhose words typical,
neurodivergent, non-typical?
(14:22):
Exactly.
Natacha Raphael (14:30):
Then, as I really literally plunged into it
, I, I bought every single book.
I spent so much time I at thelibrary and so on.
Um, I, uh, I told myself I'mjust going to raise them the
same, like Andrew will have.
I made it my purpose, andthat's why the book is called
(14:51):
when Life Becomes Autism becauselife became autism.
It became.
What am I going to do to ensurethat my son, regardless of
autism or not, he will beexposed to the same
opportunities and he will growalongside his brother, and
regardless of if he's going tocount cards or not, what will
(15:13):
his future hold?
And I wanted him to.
I wanted to ensure that he willgo as far as he could go and
that I made that my promise.
And so if you were to spend afew moments at our house, you
will notice that I speak to bothof them the same way.
I expect them to fix their roomand I expect them to do their
dishes, and I speak to Andrewthe same way that I speak to
(15:36):
Adam.
Maureen McGrath (15:37):
Which I think is great.
You know, I do hear a lot ofparents, you know, speaking baby
talk to their six-year-olds andyou know, I think it's, it's a
great communication style tospeak, you know, to children
like you would to.
I mean, you know, given theirage and everything, but not to
use this kind of baby talk, ifyou will, or treat them
differently, you know it's, it's.
(15:57):
I think that's very helpful.
I'm sure it has been helpfuland it sounds like it was a
transformative moment for youwhen you realized I'm just going
to treat Correct, yes.
Which it sounds like they'revery lucky boys and I'm sure
they've had their relationship.
You, I want to mention as well,you're a single mom right
(16:19):
Through through all of this, yes, which you know and you know
makes it that much morechallenging, because there's
really, you know, even with onechild, one baby, you know you
wait for somebody to come homeyour partner, your spouse,
whomever and to be able to passthat baby off, but that wasn't
necessarily the case for you.
So you know.
Additional stress on top ofthat what are some of the most
(16:42):
significant challenges parentsface when raising both a
neurotypical and aneurodivergent child?
Natacha Raphael (16:49):
I think it's the outside world.
To be very honest, it's beingat the store and, for whatever
reason, your child, who is onthe spectrum, decides to just
run off and not to say that atypical child wouldn't do the
same, depending on the age.
But you know that it'sspecifically because of what
(17:10):
he's going through.
Maybe it's a sound, maybe it'sa smell.
You're not exactly sure whattriggered the running off, and
it's like, okay, well, now Ihave the one next to me who's
not moving, but I need to runafter the other one.
And the people in the storejust look at you as if you
cannot control your children.
(17:31):
And it's like, no, it's notthat I cannot control my
children.
It's that I have a situationyou can help me out if you have
a moment, please.
Maureen McGrath (17:40):
Exactly exactly .
But we tend to go to that judgyroute, don't we?
Especially other mothers?
And you know, I mean anytwo-year-old is perfectly
capable of a tantrum in asupermarket.
But you know also the theadults are judging, looking upon
you and you feel terrible.
You know, as a mother, that youknow why can't I, I, control
this.
And then also you know therisks perhaps are different for
(18:03):
a neurodivergent child than aneurotypical child as well when
they run off.
You know, I mean, it's scarywhenever, whenever any child
runs off.
And you know how can parentsfoster.
Because the relationshipbetween your boys, I'm sure it
has been like any siblings.
It has evolved, it has changedit's.
You know it can be harmoniousand beautiful and then it can be
(18:26):
screaming and fighting like anysiblings.
What is the relationship likebetween your now teenage sons?
What's it like today?
Natacha Raphael (18:36):
Yeah, it's exactly what you just described,
it's?
They like to play video games,adam, because he's competitive,
competitive.
He likes to control his brotherand I have to intervene.
(18:56):
But no, honestly, I mean Ithink, because from the onset I
wanted to make sure that theywere just growing up as normal
brothers and I'm using the wordnormal not because of a brain
situation, but just like anysiblings would just grow up
together.
I just nurtured that, that Ihad to emphasize to Adam that
(19:35):
you know the reality of whatAndrew is actually going through
, because sometimes he's so usedto seeing Andrew just as his
brother.
Maureen McGrath (19:43):
Yes.
Natacha Raphael (19:43):
That sometimes, if he was having a difficulty
understanding a situation oradapting to a situation, adam
was so has so been used to justtreating his brother just like
his brother, not not as hisautistic brother.
That sometimes I've had toactually intervene towards Adam
and say Adam, you just need tocool it a little bit here,
(20:06):
because you know he's not seeingthe world the way you're seeing
the world.
So can we just you know givehim a chance here.
Maureen McGrath (20:14):
Yeah, and it's just part of education and I
love that that he treats hisbrother just like any sibling
than any sibling he would have.
And I also think and you maynot see it just yet or you may,
but I think it gives people whohave grown up with a sibling who
, you know, is marginalized orhas issues, I think it gives
people compassion and I think itmakes for better people in the
(20:38):
world.
But I totally love that hetreats him and that they fight
and everything.
I think that's perfect.
I think that's brilliant.
What are some of the?
I mean, it sounds like you'vecreated a harmonious home
environment and your bookemphasizes that that that's
important.
What are some of the practicalsteps that parents can take to
(21:00):
achieve this?
Natacha Raphael (21:02):
Advocate, advocate, advocate.
You know whether it's in thehome, whether it's in the family
, whether it's that school andmostly at school.
It's in the family, whetherit's that school and mostly at
school.
From the very onset you need tobe clear.
What you know, whatever youwould want for yourself, you
know, and that's what I've beentrying to do for Andrew.
(21:23):
I've been trying to be hisvoice.
He only started talking at theage of four, so for a long time
he had no voice.
So I've done my best,regardless of which situation it
was to, to advocate for him,particularly at school.
Maureen McGrath (21:39):
Right, it must have been just such tremendous
joy to hear your little boyspeak.
Natacha Raphael (21:45):
Yes.
And you'll never you'll neverknow, you'll never believe me
when I tell him, tell you whathis first words word was.
Maureen McGrath (21:59):
Go ahead If it's.
It's hilarious.
It was sheep.
Sheep, that's cute, that's sofunny.
Um, that's awesome.
You know, I imagine this isextremely difficult for parents.
I mean to the A.
The diagnosis and all of theadvocacy is exhausting and you
would get depleted and alsomanaging your job, your work,
(22:21):
your external family, so muchfriends, the public, and there
could not be parents that needself-care more than parents of
autistic children.
What advice do you give forcaregivers who feel overwhelmed?
Natacha Raphael (22:37):
Well, just like you want to make sure your
child is safe and has a greatenvironment at school and has
the right teachers, and if yourchild needs an IEP, like an
individual educational plan inplace for school, and what have
you, like an individualeducational plan in place for
school?
And what have you AbsolutelyFor yourself?
You need to make sure thatyou're healthy.
You need to your self-care.
(22:59):
Taking a moment to either mostplaces across Canada have
respite services If you don'thave family around, which wasn't
the case for me.
I lived very far away from myfamily.
You know, find out what therespite services are and take
that moment for you, whetherit's, you know, to go for a walk
(23:21):
, to go for a massage, whateverit is, maybe it's just to stay
in your room, right?
Maureen McGrath (23:27):
Be on the toilet by yourself.
Natacha Raphael (23:29):
Yes, exactly.
Sometimes that's all you need,but 100%.
It's just like on the airplane,right?
They tell you to take the maskfor you first, before you put
the mask on anyone else.
It's the same thing for you.
Make sure that you're able toreplenish to be able to take
care of your child and yourchildren.
To replenish to be able to takecare of your child and your
(23:50):
children.
Maureen McGrath (23:51):
Absolutely.
And you mentioned family andyou know sharing this news that
your child is neurodivergentwith family must have been a
challenge as well.
I mean, you know everybody's soexcited at the birth of a baby
and twins get even way moreattention.
My sister has twins and I had ababy at the same time and I
remember people would justcompletely ignore my baby,
(24:11):
looking into her stroller, youknow into her buggy, saying oh,
look at the twins, they'rebeautiful.
I'd be like I have a baby tooover here, she's cute, but so it
must be hard.
It must have been difficult totell people about your son.
Natacha Raphael (24:26):
Yeah, it was difficult, mostly because most
people don't understand.
Unfortunately, there's astereotype that comes with
autism and people don'tunderstand.
And so for the older generationpeople in my family they
thought it was that he wouldnever go to school, that he
(24:47):
would just be at home, that hewould never.
They thought more like hewouldn't be intelligent and
things like that.
He has A's and B's, he doesreally well at school, and for
the rest of the family it wasn'tso stereotypical but it was
more like non-understanding,like well, what?
Maureen McGrath (25:07):
does that mean Right?
Yes, and it must have been hardenough just to tell them.
Natasha, many parents strugglewith the idea of fixing their
child's neurodiversity.
You raise a concept in yourbook about a mindset shift which
(25:28):
is embracing their child'sneurodiversity.
How do you help them navigatethis mindset shift?
Natacha Raphael (25:36):
That's a good question.
I believe that, just likeanything in life, you know,
literally, I'm going to takesome random example, I don't
know you.
I'm going to go to another typeof example, such as losing a
job.
You could see losing a job as acomplete tragedy and, oh my God
(25:58):
, what am I going to do?
Or you could embrace it andlook at it as an opportunity and
maybe shift your career or takea different path, and that's
what my recommendation is forparents in regards to a mindset
for your child with autism.
Your child doesn't need to befixed.
My recommendation is forparents in regards to a mindset
for your child with autism.
It's your.
Your child doesn't doesn't needto be fixed.
Your child has an incredibleway of looking at the world and
(26:23):
you know, we might look at aflower and say, oh wow, the, the
flower is red.
And your child might see theflower in all kinds of different
shapes and and have a different.
You know Andrew's really goodat that, at taking something and
writing about.
He really likes comic books, sohe draws things and then he
(26:43):
makes a little story out of itand it's just beautiful and he
finds the way to express himself.
And so, instead of trying tofix him.
There's nothing actually evensaying that.
I feel awkward saying it.
I don't need to fix him, he'sperfectly fine.
He sees the world in abeautiful way, and why would I
want to fix that?
(27:04):
And so it's really aboutembracing it, in my opinion.
Maureen McGrath (27:22):
Yes, and I think that's, you know, a
society's way of you know wewant to fix a lot of things that
aren't, you know, fixable ifyou will.
It's just, you know, embracingand looking at it from.
They judged them and wanted tochange that.
But I love the idea ofembracing neurodiversity because
, quite honestly, I have toagree with Amy Schumer I do
believe we're all on thespectrum in some way, myself
(27:45):
included.
What is one key message fromyour book that you would like
listeners to take away?
Natacha Raphael (27:55):
Oh my God, there's so many of them.
Depending on where you are inyour journey, I would say Learn
as much as you can, advocate asmuch as you can, and for a few
years you will be the voice ofyour child.
He's starting middle school nowand I also had to be.
(28:18):
Even though he's perfectlycapable of speaking, and you
know, speaking to his teachersand passing his you know tests
and what have you I am still hisvoice and so you know,
depending on where you are inyour journey, I guess, learn as
much as you can, advocate asmuch as you can, because your
child will have a great life infront of him or her, as long as
(28:41):
you you give them that littlehand and don't forget that your
child is amazing and your childwill surprise you.
Even when you think they don'tunderstand, they do understand,
even when you think that theywill fall behind.
You know, my son keeps ontelling me that he wants to play
soccer and I gave him anopportunity.
They gave him actually atschool an opportunity to play.
(29:03):
He's not very well coordinated,but it's fine.
I mean, he's playing it doesn'tmatter.
Exactly, exactly, and so justgive him a, give yourself a
chance and give your child achance, and please don't forget
to take care of yourself.
Maureen McGrath (29:18):
Absolutely, it's great advice and you know
some parents.
As we mentioned, there's aspectrum here.
It does sound like Andrew'sdoing extremely well.
I think you'd also talked inyour book about you know you
didn't wait for the governmentto come in and help.
You actually took the bull bythe horns and got him help
immediately and you've beenextremely proactive.
(29:38):
And many parents are strugglingwith younger children, younger
children who might be, you know,lashing out or, you know,
screaming and non-communicative,non-verbal.
Do you have any advice forparents who might feel isolated
in their journey of raising aneurodivergent child?
Natacha Raphael (29:56):
You know it goes back to that embracing
piece If you feel that yourchild needs more support.
I remember if I could give ananecdote here I remember being
in a room when Andrew wasn'tpotty trained and it took him a
really long time to be pottytrained.
It was closer to five years oldand and I went to a group, a
(30:20):
family discussion on how tosupport our children, and there
was a family there who theirschool was really adamant that
if your child doesn't clean upsoon, we're going to have to
expel your child and I.
That was one of those momentswhere I stayed behind to speak
(30:41):
to that family and there was aproblem with the school, like
how can your school not allow,how can they not understand that
your child is perfectly capableof going to school but needs
support in going to the bathroom?
Like, how, what kind of societydo we live in?
And so I guess what I'm tryingto get to is that.
That's why I keep on talkingabout advocate advocacy.
(31:02):
It's you know, um, interviewyour school, don't just.
Don't just go to the schoolbecause they're at the corner
street where you live.
Go to the school, explainyourself to the school.
If that's not the school, thenfind another school.
And maybe some listeners aresaying, oh yeah, well, you know,
(31:23):
easier said than done.
You know, everything that I'veexperienced was within 10 to 20
kilometers of where I was living, so it is possible to find.
Sometimes it was further away,I will admit that I did go
across Ontario in some cases,but for the more day to day kind
(31:45):
of things it was within a 20kilometer radius.
So you know, depending on whereyou live, you will be able to
find more or less support inyour neighborhood, in your
community.
So, and that's why I keep onsaying that, be that advocate
and try to put the finger onwhat's going on.
(32:06):
If it's the school, then meetwith with the school.
If it's the center where yourchild goes, then speak to the
center.
If you don't like your therapist, tell the therapist.
Tell the therapist why.
I remember, uh, we're, we'reoriginally from montreal and my
first language is french and Ihad one therapist early on
telling me why are you insistingthat andrew speaks french?
(32:28):
You know, like we live inontario, like he should just
speak English, and I'm like yes,but we're a bilingual family
and Andrew speaks perfectlyFrench and English today.
And so you know you don't likewhat the therapist says tell the
therapist, change therapist.
And I know that this requirestime, I know it requires a lot
(32:48):
of energy, but I guess it's morethat reflection that you need
to have for yourself.
And you know where would youwant to be if you were in your
child's shoes and I decided totake that on for my child and so
you know, from an isolationstandpoint, we are a very big
(33:11):
community and reach out.
Reach out.
If you're in BC, I'm surethere's a large community of
parents that support each other.
Every single province there is.
There is a community, and findyour community because we're
there.
Maureen McGrath (33:26):
Absolutely it's .
It's great advice and you know,know, and I do think we need to
teach our children to acceptothers, that nobody is perfect.
You know, be kind, becompassionate and be
understanding and, you know,reach out to these kids.
It's, it's a different story,but I remember when one of my
children, my daughter, was inthe first grade and she was in a
(33:47):
new school and she came homeone day and she said to me mommy
, you know, I met a new friendtoday and he has AIDS.
And I said, oh, and I justdidn't react and that was that.
And then, six weeks later, whenI went to the parent teacher
conference, they said, oh, andyour daughter is so lovely to
this child, you know, his AIDS,tell us.
(34:08):
And I said, oh, his AIDS, tellyou.
I said my daughter came homeand told me that he had AIDS.
I said I just assumed it was anHIV infection.
And they said, oh, thank you somuch for not panicking and
losing.
You know, coming back andcomplaining, I said, no, you
know, it's of.
Of course.
(34:28):
We just want every.
We're all in this together.
You know, we're all walkingthis planet together and and we
must do and communication iscritical as well Very important.
But you know, if a child comeshome and says that there is, you
know, somebody who you know istoe walking or flapping, you
know that you know.
Just having a conversationabout that and just accepting
(34:50):
that child and maybe reachingout to be that child's friend, I
think is so important becauseoftentimes the kids learn from
the parents and, as you saidright at the beginning of this
interview, you were afraid, itwas fear, you didn't know what
you were facing, and I thinkthat's a lot of people as well.
But if we become more educated,like you know, by reading your
(35:10):
beautiful book when Life BecomesAutism A Parent's Guide to
Supporting a NeurodivergentChild, by my guest, natasha
Raphael, you will be able tounderstand this and reduce any
fears or unknowns that you mightor misconceptions that you
might have.
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to share with the
listeners, natasha?
Natacha Raphael (35:30):
Yes, actually you were talking about kindness
and so on, and I think that,even though I did a lot of my
homework in terms of selectingthe right school for Andrew, I
would really encourage schoolsand teachers to lean in and
learn about autism, becauseAndrew has been very blessed in
(35:51):
having incredible teachers.
When we moved from Toronto tothe Ottawa area, his third grade
teacher at the time, right offthe bat, from the very first day
of school, she told all thefriends in the classroom we have
a special friend in class andwe will be kind to this friend.
And as the years progressed,you know third grade and they
(36:15):
went to the fourth grade and thefourth grade and so on and so
on.
They were all pretty much thesame children going from one
grade to the next and throughouthis school years all of these
kids were very kind to him andit was really that tone of that
very first teacher who kind ofsaid the tone and that I think
also played a really big part inhis success at school because
(36:39):
he felt embraced and acceptedand I think that that was really
important.
So any teachers out therelistening, you know, please
embrace autism and learn aboutit.
Maureen McGrath (36:49):
Natasha, where can people get your beautiful
book?
Natacha Raphael (36:52):
It's currently available on Amazon.
Maureen McGrath (36:55):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much forwriting this.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story.
Best of luck through theteenage years, because you know
they're a challenge too on topof that.
Yeah.
So thanks again.
And if you are listening andyou know somebody who might
benefit from this episode orfrom reading this book, uh, feel
(37:17):
free to share the episode, butI also have a copy of the book.
Natasha has been so graciouslygenerous to offer me a book to
give to one of my listeners.
So if you'd like to text theshow, if you would like to win
this copy of this book, by allmeans text the show or email me
nursetalkathotmailcom.
I would be happy to mail it toyou, natasha.
(37:39):
Thank you so much for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
Natacha Raphael (37:43):
Thank you, maureen, it was lovely.
Thank you.
Maureen McGrath (37:45):
Thanks so much for tuning in.
I'm Maureen McGrath and youhave been listening to the
Sunday Night Health Show podcast.
If you want to hear thispodcast or any other segment
again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcasts.
You can always email menursetalk at hotmailcom or text
the show 604-765-9287.
(38:07):
That's 604-765-9287.
That's 604-765-9287.
Or head on over to my websitefor more information.
Maureenmcgrathcom, it's been mypleasure to spend this time
with you.
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Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show
Podcast, where we dive into themost compelling conversations
about health relationships andthe human experience.
Today, we're exploring a topicthat touches the lives of
countless families; autism.
Good evening.
I'm Maureen McGrath, registerednurse, nurse, continence
advisor, sexual health educator,and joining me on the line from
(00:23):
Ottawa, Canada, is NatachaRaphael, author of "When Life
Becomes Autism (00:26):
A Parent's Guide to Supporting a Neurodivergent
Child.
With a deep understanding of thechallenges and joys of raising
a neurodivergent child, Natachaoffers an insightful,
compassionate and practicalguide for parents navigating
this journey.
Her book blends heartfeltstorytelling with science-backed
strategies empowering familiesto create a nurturing and
(00:48):
supportive environment for theirchildren.
It's also extremely educational, from her comprehensive review
of developmental milestones tosigns and symptoms and successes
.
Her own story is unique andbeautiful and starts out with
the birth of her beautiful twinsons.
In our conversation today,we'll discuss the inspiration
behind her book, the BiggestMisconceptions About Autism and
(01:10):
how Families Can Foster StrongerRelationships Between
Neurodivergent and NeurotypicalSiblings.
Whether you're a parent, aneducator, a physician, a nurse
or simply somebody who wants tobetter understand the autism
experience, this episode is foryou.
So let's get started.
Welcome, Natacha.
How are you?
Natacha Raphael (01:30):
Hi, Maureen, thank you so much for having me
today.
I'm doing great Thanks.
Maureen McGrath (01:34):
I really appreciate you coming on.
I have to say I loved your bookfrom so many perspectives.
It was so comprehensive.
You explained everything insuch detail, yet it had
heartfelt stories and science.
I mean, it was just.
It was just a fantastic mix ofeverything that is necessary to
(01:55):
understand autism.
So I'd like to ask you whatinspired you to write this book
and how does it reflect yourpersonal experiences with autism
?
Natacha Raphael (02:12):
I was inspired to write the book mostly because
every time that I was droppingoff my son at the clinic, the
center where he goes throughoutactually not just now, but
throughout his journey withautism, I always found myself
having discussions with parentsor caregivers that were there
and giving them tips and tricksof well, did you speak to the
(02:32):
school about this?
Did you try to meet with theprincipal about that, or did you
try that center or that therapy?
And last year I was actuallyspeaking to a friend of mine who
was writing a book on acompletely different topic that
had nothing to do with autism,and as she was speaking, I'm
like well, maybe instead ofrandomly giving tips and tricks
(02:54):
to people, maybe I could alsoput it in a book.
And that's pretty much how thebook came to fruition.
Maureen McGrath (02:59):
And I'm so glad you did because it's going to
benefit so many people.
Your story starts out with thebirth of your twin sons a number
of years ago.
Can you share a bit about that?
Natacha Raphael (03:11):
Yeah.
So I was very surprised to knowthat I was having twins, as you
can imagine, and honestly, thefirst few weeks, months,
actually the first year and ahalf, I wouldn't have suspected
anything out of the ordinary.
They were developing fine andthey were hitting the milestones
(03:37):
, as one of the chapters that Ihave in the book.
And although we never like tocompare children, when you have
twins you see development infront of your eyes.
You see one child, you know,progressing and hitting the
milestones from a developmentstandpoint, as it should, and
then you see another childliterally in front of your eyes,
(04:00):
not going in the same route.
And that's pretty much whathappened with my kids, like they
were babies and just doing whatbabies do.
And at a certain point one ofmy Adam I'll name him Adam was
just, you know, doing thechoo-choo trains and singing
along with the nursery songs andso on, and Andrew wasn't.
(04:22):
Andrew was spinning andflapping his hands and I was
like, oh, maybe he's trying topretend to be a bird, and I
wasn't exactly sure what washappening.
Actually, I thought it was, Ithought it was an auditory
problem, I thought it was hisears.
Maureen McGrath (04:37):
Oh, and that's one of the biggest challenges
about autism why don't we, forthe listeners, explain what
exactly, if you can, if I usethat word very gingerly, because
you can't really exactly defineit.
But what is autism?
Because it is a spectrum, Iunderstand.
Natacha Raphael (04:52):
Correct.
So autism is a spectrum andmany define it as a difficulty
from a social skills and socialcommunication difficulty.
Social skills and socialcommunication difficulty and,
honestly, the first thing thatcame to my mind when I received
the diagnosis, I thought of Rainman and Dustin Hoffman in that
(05:17):
movie.
That's the only thing that cameinto my mind at that point in
time, but no, in reality cameinto my mind at that point in
time, but no, in reality it'sreally a neurological disorder
and it really affects socialskills and social communications
(05:37):
.
That's a very broad definition,by the way, Because, as you
said, it's a spectrum and noteverybody.
There are elements of autismthat you'll say oh well, this is
typically an autistic trait,but everyone has it at different
levels.
Some people are verbal, Somepeople are nonverbal, Some
people you would never eventhink that they have autism
because they could have aperfectly fine conversation with
(06:00):
you, but they will miss themark.
They will miss the mark onother social interactions and
social skills.
Maureen McGrath (06:08):
Right, you know I heard Amy Schumer, the
comedian, say she was talkingabout her husband who was
diagnosed to be autistic or onthe spectrum later in life as an
adult, and she was talkingabout just how much she loved
him and how she'd, you know,been with as only Amy can
disclose how she'd been with somany men, and but you know she
(06:28):
would choose him over any ofthem, any day of the week, any
time of the day.
And then she said somethinginteresting, you know.
She said aren't we all on thespectrum?
After all?
You know, and I think there'ssome truth to that we all have
our, dare I say, quirky waysabout us, or rituals or habits,
(06:49):
or call it whatever you want.
You go through an exhaustivelist.
I love this book, by the way, ifI haven't said that already,
but as a nurse and as a parentand as an aunt, as an educator,
you go through an exhaustivelist of autism specific
behaviors for parents to watchout for.
(07:09):
And I know, you know not only doparents of twins, who are
fortunate to have twins, comparetheir children, or, if they
have more than one child, theycompare their children, but we
also compare our babies to otherpeople's babies as well and,
you know, are they advancing inthe way that they should?
But what are some of thebehaviors that parents should be
watching out for and what isthe criteria for diagnosis?
(07:33):
Like in my clinic, for example,I'll hear a parent say, you
know, my child does, has anxietyand is toe walking, and they're
, you know, six years of age andyou know.
So how many of these symptomsdo people need?
And you know how is itdiagnosed, because it was an
extensive list and youcategorized it between motor
(07:54):
skills and social skills.
So I mean, I would imagine itwould not be the easiest
diagnosis to make to make Right.
Natacha Raphael (08:07):
So obviously I won't be able to speak as a
physician, but what I can say isthat once, as a parent, when
you see, for example, your child, you know spinning or flapping
their hands or rocking theirbodies or putting their hands on
their ears, because even thoughthe TV is not particularly loud
(08:27):
, your child isn't able tosustain the sound or music, same
thing or anything other.
I remember for a while, andrew,we would go to the store, the
supermarket, and he would justblock his ears, the supermarket
and he would just block his ears.
If you mentioned it earlier,tiptoeing, a very big one, that
(08:50):
is, if I could say, an easierone to catch is eye contact.
And if you tell your child, oh,look at the bird.
And as you're saying, look atthe bird, you're actually
pointing at the bird and yourchild isn't following your
finger.
That's also another easy one,depending on the age of the
(09:15):
child.
If your child isn't able to bein the room with other children
and, let's say, even though verysmall children are going to be
territorial and they're going tosay like this, this is my doll,
or this is my toy, or what haveyou, at the same time they are
able to sit together and in someway kind of work, play together
.
An autistic child will willwill shy away from that from a
(09:36):
social perspective and go veryfurther away from the other
children and won't want to playor be around the other children.
Away from the other childrenand won't want to play or be
around the other children.
So those are just cues that youknow if your child isn't
following just basic steps.
Those are things that maybe youcould open your eyes towards
and ask yourself am I missingsomething here?
(09:58):
And definitely those werethings that helped me want to
seek more attention.
As I said earlier, I thought hecouldn't hear us because he
wasn't singing along with thenursery rhyme, he wasn't
responding to his name.
I thought it was an auditoryproblem.
And so even if you have asuspicion, you know, maybe you
(10:21):
won't be able to get thediagnosis right away and maybe
you'll need to do a little bitof digging.
And that's the whole purpose ofthe book.
A lot of parts across the bookI encourage parents to play the
investigator and ask questionsand not to shy away from
questions, because maybe it'snot autism, you know, maybe it's
another, another comorbidity,another comorbidity like ADHD or
(10:51):
yeah, which is not uncommon inneurodivergent people.
Maureen McGrath (10:52):
You, it must have been difficult.
You, you mentioned, at 18months you started to notice a
significant difference betweenyour boys, adam and Andrew.
How long did it take to finallyrealize the diagnosis?
And then, what was that likeraising a neurotypical child and
a neurodivergent child?
Natacha Raphael (11:31):
The moment that I noticed that there were
differences, significantdifferences, to seeing my family
doctor because we thought itwas it could be auditory.
The first person we met was awas an.
Well, she had both has.
She's.
A was an auditory specialistbut she also was a speech
pathologist and right away shesaid your son could hear me,
your son does not have anauditory problem.
But she kind of hinted andbecause it's a sensitive topic,
(11:53):
not every parent wants to hearit's possibly autism.
So she was actually very, verysensitive about it and she
didn't just say autism, she justsaid you know, you might want
to do a bit of research in termsof development.
And she gave me the report togive to the physician.
Obviously, I opened the reportand I read it on the spot and by
(12:14):
the time I saw my family doctorfor a follow up I had already
done a lot of the research andso I met with the doctor.
He sent us to see apediatrician, a specialized
pediatrician, and by the timethe pediatrician did the full
diagnosis, it was another, so hehad just turned two.
(12:37):
So from 18 months to him beingtwo, so about six months it took
to actually get the fulldiagnosis, the official
diagnosis and for your secondquestion about raising a typical
and neurotypical child.
Maureen McGrath (12:54):
Well, I guess what I meant was what was it
like to hear that news?
I have a neurotypical child andI have a neurodivergent child.
I'm sure that wasn't yourthought, but you know how am I
going to, you know, manage thisdeal with this.
I mean, on some levels it canbe heartbreaking, you know, but
on other levels it's tremendousjoy, you know.
(13:17):
So just what was that like interms of looking at it from the
perspective of having your twins?
So, as you said, I wasdevastated because I was mostly
scared, and I was devastatedbecause I did.
First of all, I, as I saidearlier, I didn't even know what
it meant and the first thing Ihad in my mind was Dustin
(13:38):
Hoffman in a movie countingcards.
So all I could think of wasAndrew in a center somewhere
counting cards, and so my firstreaction was well, what will the
future hold for him?
We're not a society that isvery open and understands what
(13:59):
that means, and so right away mybrain went to the future.
And what will his trajectory beLike?
What will school be like forhim?
And then to your point, youknow, how will I manage that
difference of raising and eventhose words typical,
neurodivergent, non-typical?
(14:22):
Exactly.
Natacha Raphael (14:30):
Then, as I really literally plunged into it
, I, I bought every single book.
I spent so much time I at thelibrary and so on.
Um, I, uh, I told myself I'mjust going to raise them the
same, like Andrew will have.
I made it my purpose, andthat's why the book is called
(14:51):
when Life Becomes Autism becauselife became autism.
It became.
What am I going to do to ensurethat my son, regardless of
autism or not, he will beexposed to the same
opportunities and he will growalongside his brother, and
regardless of if he's going tocount cards or not, what will
(15:13):
his future hold?
And I wanted him to.
I wanted to ensure that he willgo as far as he could go and
that I made that my promise.
And so if you were to spend afew moments at our house, you
will notice that I speak to bothof them the same way.
I expect them to fix their roomand I expect them to do their
dishes, and I speak to Andrewthe same way that I speak to
(15:36):
Adam.
Maureen McGrath (15:37):
Which I think is great.
You know, I do hear a lot ofparents, you know, speaking baby
talk to their six-year-olds andyou know, I think it's, it's a
great communication style tospeak, you know, to children
like you would to.
I mean, you know, given theirage and everything, but not to
use this kind of baby talk, ifyou will, or treat them
differently, you know it's, it's.
(15:57):
I think that's very helpful.
I'm sure it has been helpfuland it sounds like it was a
transformative moment for youwhen you realized I'm just going
to treat Correct, yes.
Which it sounds like they'revery lucky boys and I'm sure
they've had their relationship.
You, I want to mention as well,you're a single mom right
(16:19):
Through through all of this, yes, which you know and you know
makes it that much morechallenging, because there's
really, you know, even with onechild, one baby, you know you
wait for somebody to come homeyour partner, your spouse,
whomever and to be able to passthat baby off, but that wasn't
necessarily the case for you.
So you know.
Additional stress on top ofthat what are some of the most
(16:42):
significant challenges parentsface when raising both a
neurotypical and aneurodivergent child?
Natacha Raphael (16:49):
I think it's the outside world.
To be very honest, it's beingat the store and, for whatever
reason, your child, who is onthe spectrum, decides to just
run off and not to say that atypical child wouldn't do the
same, depending on the age.
But you know that it'sspecifically because of what
(17:10):
he's going through.
Maybe it's a sound, maybe it'sa smell.
You're not exactly sure whattriggered the running off, and
it's like, okay, well, now Ihave the one next to me who's
not moving, but I need to runafter the other one.
And the people in the storejust look at you as if you
cannot control your children.
(17:31):
And it's like, no, it's notthat I cannot control my
children.
It's that I have a situationyou can help me out if you have
a moment, please.
Maureen McGrath (17:40):
Exactly exactly .
But we tend to go to that judgyroute, don't we?
Especially other mothers?
And you know, I mean anytwo-year-old is perfectly
capable of a tantrum in asupermarket.
But you know also the theadults are judging, looking upon
you and you feel terrible.
You know, as a mother, that youknow why can't I, I, control
this.
And then also you know therisks perhaps are different for
(18:03):
a neurodivergent child than aneurotypical child as well when
they run off.
You know, I mean, it's scarywhenever, whenever any child
runs off.
And you know how can parentsfoster.
Because the relationshipbetween your boys, I'm sure it
has been like any siblings.
It has evolved, it has changedit's.
You know it can be harmoniousand beautiful and then it can be
(18:26):
screaming and fighting like anysiblings.
What is the relationship likebetween your now teenage sons?
What's it like today?
Natacha Raphael (18:36):
Yeah, it's exactly what you just described,
it's?
They like to play video games,adam, because he's competitive,
competitive.
He likes to control his brotherand I have to intervene.
(18:56):
But no, honestly, I mean Ithink, because from the onset I
wanted to make sure that theywere just growing up as normal
brothers and I'm using the wordnormal not because of a brain
situation, but just like anysiblings would just grow up
together.
I just nurtured that, that Ihad to emphasize to Adam that
(19:35):
you know the reality of whatAndrew is actually going through
, because sometimes he's so usedto seeing Andrew just as his
brother.
Maureen McGrath (19:43):
Yes.
Natacha Raphael (19:43):
That sometimes, if he was having a difficulty
understanding a situation oradapting to a situation, adam
was so has so been used to justtreating his brother just like
his brother, not not as hisautistic brother.
That sometimes I've had toactually intervene towards Adam
and say Adam, you just need tocool it a little bit here,
(20:06):
because you know he's not seeingthe world the way you're seeing
the world.
So can we just you know givehim a chance here.
Maureen McGrath (20:14):
Yeah, and it's just part of education and I
love that that he treats hisbrother just like any sibling
than any sibling he would have.
And I also think and you maynot see it just yet or you may,
but I think it gives people whohave grown up with a sibling who
, you know, is marginalized orhas issues, I think it gives
people compassion and I think itmakes for better people in the
(20:38):
world.
But I totally love that hetreats him and that they fight
and everything.
I think that's perfect.
I think that's brilliant.
What are some of the?
I mean, it sounds like you'vecreated a harmonious home
environment and your bookemphasizes that that that's
important.
What are some of the practicalsteps that parents can take to
(21:00):
achieve this?
Natacha Raphael (21:02):
Advocate, advocate, advocate.
You know whether it's in thehome, whether it's in the family
, whether it's that school andmostly at school.
It's in the family, whetherit's that school and mostly at
school.
From the very onset you need tobe clear.
What you know, whatever youwould want for yourself, you
know, and that's what I've beentrying to do for Andrew.
(21:23):
I've been trying to be hisvoice.
He only started talking at theage of four, so for a long time
he had no voice.
So I've done my best,regardless of which situation it
was to, to advocate for him,particularly at school.
Maureen McGrath (21:39):
Right, it must have been just such tremendous
joy to hear your little boyspeak.
Natacha Raphael (21:45):
Yes.
And you'll never you'll neverknow, you'll never believe me
when I tell him, tell you whathis first words word was.
Maureen McGrath (21:59):
Go ahead If it's.
It's hilarious.
It was sheep.
Sheep, that's cute, that's sofunny.
Um, that's awesome.
You know, I imagine this isextremely difficult for parents.
I mean to the A.
The diagnosis and all of theadvocacy is exhausting and you
would get depleted and alsomanaging your job, your work,
(22:21):
your external family, so muchfriends, the public, and there
could not be parents that needself-care more than parents of
autistic children.
What advice do you give forcaregivers who feel overwhelmed?
Natacha Raphael (22:37):
Well, just like you want to make sure your
child is safe and has a greatenvironment at school and has
the right teachers, and if yourchild needs an IEP, like an
individual educational plan inplace for school, and what have
you, like an individualeducational plan in place for
school?
And what have you AbsolutelyFor yourself?
You need to make sure thatyou're healthy.
You need to your self-care.
(22:59):
Taking a moment to either mostplaces across Canada have
respite services If you don'thave family around, which wasn't
the case for me.
I lived very far away from myfamily.
You know, find out what therespite services are and take
that moment for you, whetherit's, you know, to go for a walk
(23:21):
, to go for a massage, whateverit is, maybe it's just to stay
in your room, right?
Maureen McGrath (23:27):
Be on the toilet by yourself.
Natacha Raphael (23:29):
Yes, exactly.
Sometimes that's all you need,but 100%.
It's just like on the airplane,right?
They tell you to take the maskfor you first, before you put
the mask on anyone else.
It's the same thing for you.
Make sure that you're able toreplenish to be able to take
care of your child and yourchildren.
To replenish to be able to takecare of your child and your
(23:50):
children.
Maureen McGrath (23:51):
Absolutely.
And you mentioned family andyou know sharing this news that
your child is neurodivergentwith family must have been a
challenge as well.
I mean, you know everybody's soexcited at the birth of a baby
and twins get even way moreattention.
My sister has twins and I had ababy at the same time and I
remember people would justcompletely ignore my baby,
(24:11):
looking into her stroller, youknow into her buggy, saying oh,
look at the twins, they'rebeautiful.
I'd be like I have a baby tooover here, she's cute, but so it
must be hard.
It must have been difficult totell people about your son.
Natacha Raphael (24:26):
Yeah, it was difficult, mostly because most
people don't understand.
Unfortunately, there's astereotype that comes with
autism and people don'tunderstand.
And so for the older generationpeople in my family they
thought it was that he wouldnever go to school, that he
(24:47):
would just be at home, that hewould never.
They thought more like hewouldn't be intelligent and
things like that.
He has A's and B's, he doesreally well at school, and for
the rest of the family it wasn'tso stereotypical but it was
more like non-understanding,like well, what?
Maureen McGrath (25:07):
does that mean Right?
Yes, and it must have been hardenough just to tell them.
Natasha, many parents strugglewith the idea of fixing their
child's neurodiversity.
You raise a concept in yourbook about a mindset shift which
(25:28):
is embracing their child'sneurodiversity.
How do you help them navigatethis mindset shift?
Natacha Raphael (25:36):
That's a good question.
I believe that, just likeanything in life, you know,
literally, I'm going to takesome random example, I don't
know you.
I'm going to go to another typeof example, such as losing a
job.
You could see losing a job as acomplete tragedy and, oh my God
(25:58):
, what am I going to do?
Or you could embrace it andlook at it as an opportunity and
maybe shift your career or takea different path, and that's
what my recommendation is forparents in regards to a mindset
for your child with autism.
Your child doesn't need to befixed.
My recommendation is forparents in regards to a mindset
for your child with autism.
It's your.
Your child doesn't doesn't needto be fixed.
Your child has an incredibleway of looking at the world and
(26:23):
you know, we might look at aflower and say, oh wow, the, the
flower is red.
And your child might see theflower in all kinds of different
shapes and and have a different.
You know Andrew's really goodat that, at taking something and
writing about.
He really likes comic books, sohe draws things and then he
(26:43):
makes a little story out of itand it's just beautiful and he
finds the way to express himself.
And so, instead of trying tofix him.
There's nothing actually evensaying that.
I feel awkward saying it.
I don't need to fix him, he'sperfectly fine.
He sees the world in abeautiful way, and why would I
want to fix that?
(27:04):
And so it's really aboutembracing it, in my opinion.
Maureen McGrath (27:22):
Yes, and I think that's, you know, a
society's way of you know wewant to fix a lot of things that
aren't, you know, fixable ifyou will.
It's just, you know, embracingand looking at it from.
They judged them and wanted tochange that.
But I love the idea ofembracing neurodiversity because
, quite honestly, I have toagree with Amy Schumer I do
believe we're all on thespectrum in some way, myself
(27:45):
included.
What is one key message fromyour book that you would like
listeners to take away?
Natacha Raphael (27:55):
Oh my God, there's so many of them.
Depending on where you are inyour journey, I would say Learn
as much as you can, advocate asmuch as you can, and for a few
years you will be the voice ofyour child.
He's starting middle school nowand I also had to be.
(28:18):
Even though he's perfectlycapable of speaking, and you
know, speaking to his teachersand passing his you know tests
and what have you I am still hisvoice and so you know,
depending on where you are inyour journey, I guess, learn as
much as you can, advocate asmuch as you can, because your
child will have a great life infront of him or her, as long as
(28:41):
you you give them that littlehand and don't forget that your
child is amazing and your childwill surprise you.
Even when you think they don'tunderstand, they do understand,
even when you think that theywill fall behind.
You know, my son keeps ontelling me that he wants to play
soccer and I gave him anopportunity.
They gave him actually atschool an opportunity to play.
(29:03):
He's not very well coordinated,but it's fine.
I mean, he's playing it doesn'tmatter.
Exactly, exactly, and so justgive him a, give yourself a
chance and give your child achance, and please don't forget
to take care of yourself.
Maureen McGrath (29:18):
Absolutely, it's great advice and you know
some parents.
As we mentioned, there's aspectrum here.
It does sound like Andrew'sdoing extremely well.
I think you'd also talked inyour book about you know you
didn't wait for the governmentto come in and help.
You actually took the bull bythe horns and got him help
immediately and you've beenextremely proactive.
(29:38):
And many parents are strugglingwith younger children, younger
children who might be, you know,lashing out or, you know,
screaming and non-communicative,non-verbal.
Do you have any advice forparents who might feel isolated
in their journey of raising aneurodivergent child?
Natacha Raphael (29:56):
You know it goes back to that embracing
piece If you feel that yourchild needs more support.
I remember if I could give ananecdote here I remember being
in a room when Andrew wasn'tpotty trained and it took him a
really long time to be pottytrained.
It was closer to five years oldand and I went to a group, a
(30:20):
family discussion on how tosupport our children, and there
was a family there who theirschool was really adamant that
if your child doesn't clean upsoon, we're going to have to
expel your child and I.
That was one of those momentswhere I stayed behind to speak
(30:41):
to that family and there was aproblem with the school, like
how can your school not allow,how can they not understand that
your child is perfectly capableof going to school but needs
support in going to the bathroom?
Like, how, what kind of societydo we live in?
And so I guess what I'm tryingto get to is that.
That's why I keep on talkingabout advocate advocacy.
(31:02):
It's you know, um, interviewyour school, don't just.
Don't just go to the schoolbecause they're at the corner
street where you live.
Go to the school, explainyourself to the school.
If that's not the school, thenfind another school.
And maybe some listeners aresaying, oh yeah, well, you know,
(31:23):
easier said than done.
You know, everything that I'veexperienced was within 10 to 20
kilometers of where I was living, so it is possible to find.
Sometimes it was further away,I will admit that I did go
across Ontario in some cases,but for the more day to day kind
(31:45):
of things it was within a 20kilometer radius.
So you know, depending on whereyou live, you will be able to
find more or less support inyour neighborhood, in your
community.
So, and that's why I keep onsaying that, be that advocate
and try to put the finger onwhat's going on.
(32:06):
If it's the school, then meetwith with the school.
If it's the center where yourchild goes, then speak to the
center.
If you don't like your therapist, tell the therapist.
Tell the therapist why.
I remember, uh, we're, we'reoriginally from montreal and my
first language is french and Ihad one therapist early on
telling me why are you insistingthat andrew speaks french?
(32:28):
You know, like we live inontario, like he should just
speak English, and I'm like yes,but we're a bilingual family
and Andrew speaks perfectlyFrench and English today.
And so you know you don't likewhat the therapist says tell the
therapist, change therapist.
And I know that this requirestime, I know it requires a lot
(32:48):
of energy, but I guess it's morethat reflection that you need
to have for yourself.
And you know where would youwant to be if you were in your
child's shoes and I decided totake that on for my child and so
you know, from an isolationstandpoint, we are a very big
(33:11):
community and reach out.
Reach out.
If you're in BC, I'm surethere's a large community of
parents that support each other.
Every single province there is.
There is a community, and findyour community because we're
there.
Maureen McGrath (33:26):
Absolutely it's .
It's great advice and you know,know, and I do think we need to
teach our children to acceptothers, that nobody is perfect.
You know, be kind, becompassionate and be
understanding and, you know,reach out to these kids.
It's, it's a different story,but I remember when one of my
children, my daughter, was inthe first grade and she was in a
(33:47):
new school and she came homeone day and she said to me mommy
, you know, I met a new friendtoday and he has AIDS.
And I said, oh, and I justdidn't react and that was that.
And then, six weeks later, whenI went to the parent teacher
conference, they said, oh, andyour daughter is so lovely to
this child, you know, his AIDS,tell us.
(34:08):
And I said, oh, his AIDS, tellyou.
I said my daughter came homeand told me that he had AIDS.
I said I just assumed it was anHIV infection.
And they said, oh, thank you somuch for not panicking and
losing.
You know, coming back andcomplaining, I said, no, you
know, it's of.
Of course.
(34:28):
We just want every.
We're all in this together.
You know, we're all walkingthis planet together and and we
must do and communication iscritical as well Very important.
But you know, if a child comeshome and says that there is, you
know, somebody who you know istoe walking or flapping, you
know that you know.
Just having a conversationabout that and just accepting
(34:50):
that child and maybe reachingout to be that child's friend, I
think is so important becauseoftentimes the kids learn from
the parents and, as you saidright at the beginning of this
interview, you were afraid, itwas fear, you didn't know what
you were facing, and I thinkthat's a lot of people as well.
But if we become more educated,like you know, by reading your
(35:10):
beautiful book when Life BecomesAutism A Parent's Guide to
Supporting a NeurodivergentChild, by my guest, natasha
Raphael, you will be able tounderstand this and reduce any
fears or unknowns that you mightor misconceptions that you
might have.
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to share with the
listeners, natasha?
Natacha Raphael (35:30):
Yes, actually you were talking about kindness
and so on, and I think that,even though I did a lot of my
homework in terms of selectingthe right school for Andrew, I
would really encourage schoolsand teachers to lean in and
learn about autism, becauseAndrew has been very blessed in
(35:51):
having incredible teachers.
When we moved from Toronto tothe Ottawa area, his third grade
teacher at the time, right offthe bat, from the very first day
of school, she told all thefriends in the classroom we have
a special friend in class andwe will be kind to this friend.
And as the years progressed,you know third grade and they
(36:15):
went to the fourth grade and thefourth grade and so on and so
on.
They were all pretty much thesame children going from one
grade to the next and throughouthis school years all of these
kids were very kind to him andit was really that tone of that
very first teacher who kind ofsaid the tone and that I think
also played a really big part inhis success at school because
(36:39):
he felt embraced and acceptedand I think that that was really
important.
So any teachers out therelistening, you know, please
embrace autism and learn aboutit.
Maureen McGrath (36:49):
Natasha, where can people get your beautiful
book?
Natacha Raphael (36:52):
It's currently available on Amazon.
Maureen McGrath (36:55):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much forwriting this.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story.
Best of luck through theteenage years, because you know
they're a challenge too on topof that.
Yeah.
So thanks again.
And if you are listening andyou know somebody who might
benefit from this episode orfrom reading this book, uh, feel
(37:17):
free to share the episode, butI also have a copy of the book.
Natasha has been so graciouslygenerous to offer me a book to
give to one of my listeners.
So if you'd like to text theshow, if you would like to win
this copy of this book, by allmeans text the show or email me
nursetalkathotmailcom.
I would be happy to mail it toyou, natasha.
(37:39):
Thank you so much for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
Natacha Raphael (37:43):
Thank you, maureen, it was lovely.
Thank you.
Maureen McGrath (37:45):
Thanks so much for tuning in.
I'm Maureen McGrath and youhave been listening to the
Sunday Night Health Show podcast.
If you want to hear thispodcast or any other segment
again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcasts.
You can always email menursetalk at hotmailcom or text
the show 604-765-9287.
(38:07):
That's 604-765-9287.
That's 604-765-9287.
Or head on over to my websitefor more information.
Maureenmcgrathcom, it's been mypleasure to spend this time
with you.
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