EP. 47: The Rise of Pinnacle Hills: A Developer’s Story

Unlock the secrets to thriving in Northwest Arkansas' real estate market with insights from Tom Allen, a seasoned expert who transitioned from the fast-paced world of franchising Backyard Burgers to the intricate landscape of real estate with Walmart. Tom takes us through his journey from managing restaurant challenges to navigating outlot sales, site selections, and the complexities of dark store leases. His story is a testament to the importance of adaptability and the lessons learned from corporate giants like Walmart, which continue to shape his successful real estate career today.

Explore the profound impact of corporate investments and family legacies in Northwest Arkansas, as we dissect the region's unique development compared to other burgeoning markets. We reminisce about local landmarks like Shiloh Christian football and discuss how figures like John Wayne could metaphorically embody the spirit of Pinnacle Hills. The conversation also highlights the pivotal roles of the Waltons, Hunts, and Tysons in fostering community growth, emphasizing the critical nature of businesses reinvesting in their locales.

Equally compelling is the importance of accountability and relationship-building in real estate development. Through stories of working with visionary figures like Mr. and Mrs. Hunt, Tom sheds light on the creative challenges and triumphs of projects such as Hunt Tower. As we consider the region's future, from upscale dining aspirations to innovative mixed-use projects, the narrative underscores the significance of honesty, humility, and collaboration in overcoming obstacles and seizing new opportunities. This episode promises to enrich your understanding of real estate dynamics and community transformation, all through Tom's personal journey and wisdom.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast, your
go-to source for real estateinvesting in Northwest Arkansas.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
With your seasoned investor just starting out.
We bring you expert insights,market trends and practical
strategies to help you buildwealth through real estate.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
From buying and selling to property management
and long-term investmentplanning.
We cover it all so you can makesmart, informed decisions in
this fast-growing market.
Let's dive in.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Welcome to Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast.
We have a wonderful guest withus this week Tom Allen.
Tom, thank you so much forbeing here.
We know your time is valuableand we thank you for coming on
the show with us.
We have a nice little investingpodcast started and we're 50
plus episodes in now, and sowe'd love to have guests like
yourself that are like I guessyou're not native to here, but

(00:51):
you've been here for a reallylong time, since 94, correct,
it's my home now.
It's your home now.
Woo pig, woo pig.
That's a good place to start.
It's a good place to start.
So give us what I like to startwith a lot of times is like
give us a quick 30,000 footperspective on one yourself and
then like let's just start withhow you got to this area, what
did that look like for you?
And then we'll dive a littlebit further into like about

(01:13):
yourself and what you do.

Speaker 4 (01:15):
Well, born in Oklahoma but moved to Arkansas
early.
Okay, so I'm an Arkansas and Igrew up in Russellville.
Okay, and my parents moved toLittle Rock when I was in
college, went to U of A atFayetteville, so fell in love
with Northwest Arkansas while Iwas in college there and one day
hoped to be back in NorthwestArkansas and there was nothing

(01:36):
here, really.
Fayetteville was it, andFayetteville was nothing what it
resembles today, really, either.
But I was in Little Rock andmarried with my wife no kids and
really what brought me up herewas an opportunity to get into
the Backyard Burgers franchise.
I read a little bit about that.
We used to go there all thetime, did you?

(01:57):
It was aggressive.
Great boys, yeah.
Great products, yeah, I muchrather eat the product and serve
it Someone's serving it to methan me being the guy that's
cooking the burger and servingit out the window.
When I was in Little Rock,though, people kept saying you
need to go to Northwest Arkansas.
It's just going to reallyflourish.
Those talks began in 92 andreally nothing.

(02:17):
It really happened just here.
So the territory I got was inBenton County, so the first
store was in Rogers, second wasin Bentonville, and so the first
store was in Rogers, second wasin Bentonville, opened up with
great success, but still notmuch here.
My wife is from Memphis, okay,and so she's used to a city and
she's used to shopping and allthat yeah.

(02:38):
I moved to Little Rock and shedidn't like that.
Little Rock was okay.
And then I said we're moving toRogers and she said can we go
to Fayetteville?
And I said no, we're going todo business in Rogers, so we're
going to live in Rogers.
We didn't even have a Wendy'sback then.
Oh Lord, oh Lord.
But I knew that because I hadtalked to some people, some

(03:00):
prominent business people in thearea, some names you'd
recognize, and they had saidit's recognize and, uh, they had
said it's coming in BentonCounty.
By the way, the whole area isgoing to flourish, including,
obviously, washington County,but Benton County, this person
was telling me it was reallygoing to explode.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, he knew something was going on.
That was 94.

Speaker 4 (03:18):
94.
Wow, opened up the restaurantbusiness, did well for a while,
but it is for me.
A lot of people told me youdon't want to do that and so,
yeah, sure I do.
Yeah, and I learned there was acollege degree in itself
running a business and through afranchise and managing people
and equipment and food andeverything else and uh, but one
thing led to another and we shutthose down and um went to work

(03:42):
for Walmart in real estate.
Yeah, that's where my realestate career started there.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
How do you feel?
I mean, what did you take frommanaging that franchise and
going into Walmart?
I guess you started.
Did you start a real estatedivision at Walmart?
Is that what you did?
Oh, I didn't start it.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
No, that was already there by in in humming along
doing obviously fantastic things.
But I had a.
I had a connection and a friendthere, several friends in that
department, and I'd always had aliking to real estate and I
learned there were some openingsthere and Paul Carter was
instrumental and Jeff Gustafsonif anybody knows him he was

(04:22):
leaving and I actually took hisplace.
Okay, and Walmart taught mereally everything I know about
real estate.
Wow, that's where I learned.
So I started out sellingoutlots in front of super
centers and sand slubs andneighborhood markets and then
went to the new store siteselection for those same things
in different states andterritories and finished my

(04:42):
career there doing the darkstores, selling those, leasing
those, subleasing them in earlylease terminations yeah, for the
dark stores.
So got to do all of that and Igot to.
I got to work with some reallylarge REITs and landlords and
East Coast, west Coast, chicagoand and really learned a lot.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
So that you'd say that, very, very well, how old
were you when you were?

Speaker 4 (05:09):
you when you started that, that Walmart venture?
Oh, Walmart ought to have been36, 35.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Just thinking on that , that probably very much
prepared you for what you havebeen doing and are doing now.
Correct?
Oh, absolutely Slayed thefoundation for that.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:24):
Well, that taught me.
Now you have to relearn realestate when you're in Walmart
and a big machine like that.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
They do it their way.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
Then there's the rest of the world that does it their
way.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, that's true, that's exactly, and I also
learned that when, when you haveWalmart behind your name and
you're calling different people,they return your phone calls
pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
That's the truth.

Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yeah, and when I didn't have Walmart behind my
name, I didn't get those returncalls quite as quickly.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
It's pretty frustrating.
You're like, come on, let'srespond.
So you start, you were withWalmart for a period, and then
what was your transition likeafter that?
What was the next step for you?

Speaker 4 (05:56):
Well, I was being recruited and so it's kind of
delves into some of thequestions you've asked me before
.
But I was traveling quite a bitout to see the territory at
Walmart.
I had my two children and mywife and I did, and I wasn't
seeing them as much as I'd like.
They were growing up inelementary school at Shiloh here
.
Yep, and the travel schedulesometimes I would have to miss

(06:18):
whatever events sporting eventsor plays or whatever it might be
.
And the opportunity came alongto work for a local developer
with what at that time was thePinnacle Group Okay, yeah, and
the main partners at that time.
There were some others involved, but it was obviously the Hunt
family and Tim Graham and thenBill Schweihart, and I was

(06:40):
actually closer to Bill at thetime.
Bill was recruiting me to comeover but he was worried about
stealing from Walmart and allthat.
So I had a brief transitionwith another local company here
and then when Bill found outthat I had left Walmart, he made
an offer for me to come onboard and help them go to the
next level.
They didn't have anybody, theyreally knew much about the

(07:02):
leasing aspect of the businessand they were just getting
started with what we call thepinnacle centers over there,
where the world trade center andstuff.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that your son went to
Shiloh.
I went to Shiloh too.
I felt like I had recognizedhim from somewhere.
What?
How old is he?
He's 30.
So was he like?
Was he like in the?
What year are we in?
20, Was he?

Speaker 4 (07:23):
like in the.
What year are we in?

Speaker 1 (07:24):
25.
He's 30.
So was he like in the KyleFrazier Sam Harville.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
He was on the team.
He was a sophomore when theywere seniors.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Okay, yes, I remember his face looked so familiar
because I was a freshman, Ithink, when Kyle and them were
like seniors yeah, and I waslooking up to that class that
won like three statechampionships and I hated
Christian football.
To that class that won likethree state championships and I
hated Shiloh Christian footballduring that time period and I
thought your son was veryfamiliar.
I knew him from somewhere let'stransition into.

(07:54):
We'll dive back into some ofthat.
But kind of a fun question wasif you, if Pinnacle Hills was a
celebrity, what celebrity do youthink Pinnacle Hills would be?

Speaker 4 (08:06):
That's a tough question for me.
There's so many.
We talked many times internallywith the Hunt family and those
of you all about this would be agreat movie it really would be
with the characters that startedthis, the ones I mentioned, but
particularly Mr Hunt.
Jb Hunt yeah, he's a celebrityin himself.
Yeah, and you know he never sawa deal he didn't like and

(08:30):
nothing was ever too big for him.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
And I would just have to say John Wayne, john Wayne,
I love that.
Yeah, that's a shooter, it'sreally interesting and you have
the perspective.
You know, in 96, I was justborn, so I didn't get to see the
transformation of this area,but you've been able to see it
to where I guess it was just amain vein interstate that went
through here to everythingthat's come along now.
A good question, I think, wouldbe how rare is it that this,

(08:57):
where we are right now, all thisstuff has actually happened,
came to fruition?
All the steps that took placefor it to even be a thing, how
rare do you think that is?
Do you think?

Speaker 4 (09:07):
there are some other markets in the country that have
some similar type um storieslike huntsville alabama is a
small version of this from theaerospace industry, yep, uh,
heavily lean towards theengineering and, uh, aerospace,
uh, so that's, it's a nice arealike this.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, wepatterned the Topgolf in
Huntsville, this one here afterthe one in Huntsville, really

(09:30):
Same size market and things likethat.
That's super cool.
But this is pretty uniquebecause you have to have a
catalyst that drives it.
You know, I've been to Omaha,nebraska.
Omaha has got obviously, oneblank on the billionaire Buffett
and his companies and theinsurance companies that are
there and stuff.
But this is so unique because ithas grown so fast and Walmart

(09:53):
obviously is the catalyst.
I mean the JB Hunt Transport isphenomenal, tyson is phenomenal
, but many other companies thathave been here that aren't.
You know George's people likethat.
I don't talk about Simmons,actually Simmons, yeah,
university of Arkansas is here,but Walmart is so big, oh my
gosh, it's just it's, it'samazing what it does and it's

(10:14):
going to continue to grow.
But so that's unique in that wecan have that.
And then you know, when theword came out, that if you
really want to service yourproduct and you want to be here.
If you want to have a producton the shelf, better have an
office here.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, I always talk about that when you have outside
investors looking in.
That was a huge, pivotal momentfor the Walmart to say you have
to sell, if you're going tosell into Walmart, you're going
to have to have an office here.
So you have those othercompanies.
Procter Gamble, headquarteredin Cincinnati, is an example I
always use.
But you mentioned, like youhave these under the radar kind

(10:49):
of companies George's SimmonsWell, not even under the radar
to us, but to people in Dallas.
Dallas is looking at theWaltons, the Tysons and the Jeep
, the Fortune 500.
You have a lot of thesecompanies and the fortune 500 a
lot.
You have a lot of thesecompanies and I think what's
interesting and what you've seena lot is how much they invest

(11:10):
back into the area, like they'reputting roots back into the
area.
That's a common theme in theomaha, the huntsville.
The businesses that aresuccessful have started.
They invest a lot in realestate you know a lot of them
and into their town so theytheir flight risk of.
They're not always saying yeah,we're not moving, we're
reinvesting back into the area.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
That's a big key.
I'm glad you brought that up,because all the families and
even the families that are notcommonly known, that are
obviously well entrenched thatthey all give back to the
community and then communitiesthat have seen better days than
what they are today.
One of the common denominatorsis the founding.

(11:51):
Families have eitherdisappeared or stopped being
engaged, and we're so blessedthat the Waltons and the Hunts
and the Tysons and so manyothers continue to reinvest in
the area, giving millions ofdollars to various, not just
charities but to infrastructureand things like that.

(12:11):
And that's so unique.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, that's so unique, and the Allens and the
wagers.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Let's not forget about the stand.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
I was going to say I'd love to go back to your
story again.
So you got out of the, you gotout of the backyard burgers and
the restaurant business and youkind of sounds like you started
to partner with the.
What was the pinnacle groupRight, and what?
What kind of transpired, Iguess.
What was the time frame there?
When did you kind of get intothat venture next, I guess I
guess you went to and then uh,and then kind of when, when did

(12:45):
you leave walmart?
What kind of time frame wasthat?

Speaker 4 (12:47):
so I was at walmart about eight years, roughly
speaking, yeah.
And then um then transitionedover to the pinnacle group and
started that and we had oh, thepenalty group had about 300 000
square feet in total space.
Yeah and um, I guess the bigthing that happened with the
Pinnacle Group and with theHunts involved was that the

(13:09):
Promenade Mall came aboutthrough General Growth and the
Hunt family is 50% owner of thatand the managing partner was
General Growth, who is nowBrookfield, and so they're the
experts, they make the dailydecisions on running that and do
a fantastic job.
Yeah, so that was a big part ofit too.
But I guess you know one thingthat we have done with the

(13:35):
Pinnacle Group, which is nowHunt Ventures Shwai Hart left on
his own and did his own thing,and then M Grant retired from
the business and then M Grahamretired from the business and so
it's really Mrs Hunt now.
And is that we continue to havesuch strong relationships with
our tenants?
We, for example, JohnsonJohnson, which now goes by
Kennedy, and Kellogg's andcompanies like that have been

(14:02):
their tenants since before I gotthere in 2006.
And one it's location, location, location.
But quality of constructioninfrastructure, and you know how
does this happen.
Uniqueness of this too the Huntfamily invested Tens of
millions of dollars I'm tryingto get an exact figure, but I'm
guessing it's around $70 millionback in those early days in

(14:22):
infrastructure or streets Wow,and drainage and lights and
everything to kickstart thisarea to keep going.
And so it takes that, becauseotherwise a developer has to do
that.
Brought that.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
You're working with a lot of companies that have
strong reputations in the areaand nationally.
How important do you think itwas?
We joked it in the beginningbefore we started recording
about knowing who says that thecap rate is 5.5 and who says
it's 4.75 and who says it's 6.
But your reputation when youwere working with these

(14:56):
well-established companies, Ithink how much do you think they
factored that?
How much do you think theyfactor that?
How much do you think theyfactor in experience?
You're starting to buildrelationships.
That's a good question.
I was going to ask that.
Next, you're starting to buildrelationships, obviously through
Walmart, then into the PinnacleVentures and then the Hunt
Ventures and then being able torepresent some larger
institutions.

(15:17):
What do you think is importantto them in working with someone
like you?

Speaker 4 (15:22):
Well, in real estate, the thing that all of us in
here would be successful yourreputation is number one.
Yeah, that is golden Amen.
There are a lot of developersin this world, and some even in
the state that we certainlywon't name those folks, but
they've got a lot of experience,but they have a trail of and

(15:44):
you really trust them.
They're going to deliver onwhat they say.
And so you've got to be able todeliver and have a track record
and you've got to be able toown up when you make a mistake.
So relationships with these bigcompanies is paramount and
you've got to be able to talkabout what you've been able to
do and perform and deliver.
And then, of course, you look atit.

(16:06):
They say cap rates.
They say location doesn'tmatter, but it really does.
If you're looking at aWalgreens on main and main
corner, you're really looking atthe income stream for Walgreens
.
I get it.
But if I buy that Walgreens onthat income stream, well, that
Walgreens has got some trouble.
Yeah, that's the CFS CDS,mm-hmm.
What's going to go in behindthat if they do shut that down,

(16:29):
right?
Well, it's on main and main,I'm not too worried about it,
right?

Speaker 2 (16:34):
It's going to work that more because you represent
both local roots in the groundand then people that are, uh,
national.
Do you think they have a bettertune to that?
Those you know street by streetlevels of the market?

Speaker 4 (16:46):
yeah absolutely, we have kind of fought that battle
northwest arkansas, uh, for along time, because we've been
years past trying to get peopleto pay attention to us.
In in, for example, rogers, oryou say benville, they're going,
where's that?
And then, oh, we're in themetro area of Northwest Arkansas
.
They're going what?
It's a directional market, whatis that?
You know, it's kind of likeNorth whatever college that

(17:10):
you're playing the basketball at, but so we used to have to get
them here to show them.
And when people came here theycould see it and they go oh, I
get it.
So that's what was importantwas the local people knew about
the intersection of this or thegrowth pattern of the city, and
also, how well do the citieswork with you in development?
But now today the secret's out.

(17:31):
We've got people from all overthe world, not just the country,
looking for opportunities here.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, I think one of the things I like that you
slightly touched on was thatthese companies and individuals
that you're representing knowthat you're not perfect and that
you're going to do all yourmath data research beforehand.
But you've messed up before inthe past, correct?
And they know.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
And they know that, as we do.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
I think that's a really cool relationship to have
.
Is them knowing like hey, tomis only human and you're, of
course, great at what you do.
Can you talk a little bit onhow to approach when you do make
a mistake and what that lookslike?
Is it like hey guys, I justmessed up?
Is it that simple?

Speaker 4 (18:18):
Well, yes, you want to boil it down to simplicity
and unfortunately, not everybodydoes, and we've all experienced
that.
Yeah, and it's really hard forpeople that take a lot of pride
in your work to build up acareer, to be the expert at what
you do, but it really setsyourself apart.
And I tell you what, when Iwork with contractors and

(18:40):
architects and engineers andanybody else, other fellow
brokers and it means a lot to meif they can just say I made a
mistake, instead of coveringthat, it is like in any job, any
company, where it is well, howare we going to fix it?
Come to me with I made amistake.
This is what I'm doing tomitigate the damage.
This is what I'm going to do tomake it up to you.

(19:01):
This is how we're going to fixit, and I'm just going to tell
you I should have paid moreattention.
Yeah, I really don't like itwhen people point to you and say
, well, it's really your faultbecause I listened to you?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
I'm going to hear that, yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Listen to my advice.
I mean, the reality is, thecustomer's always right too, and
so finding a way to, even whenthey're not, you know, finding a
way to clearly communicate and,you know, kind of put it back
on yourself to take ownershipand accountability.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
There's unknowns in any business.
We're all here invested in realestate because we think we can
control those more than a stockor a business valuation, but
there are certain elements ofthose.
So I think it's super importanttrying to account for the
unknowns even, but being able toadjust when they happen.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
You have to mitigate.
There are certain things likestructural steel and concrete
for buildings.
You can't have any mistakesthere.
You got to cover those.
But there are other things whenyou negotiate a contract and
you leave something out orwhatever.
But you just have to be honestabout it.
People may get mad but at theend of the day, the next day,

(20:20):
they wake up and go you knowwhat.
No, it was a mistake.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
It's nice to hear you say that.
I mean, I feel like on a lotsmaller scale, brandon and I and
Brian on a bigger scale than us, but sometimes I estimate
here's what your potentialrent's going to be and I
overshot it and I go hey guys,I'm sorry, but you know here's
backup plan, um, and it's coolto see you on a much bigger
scale with ultimately biggerrisks.

(20:44):
Um saying like, hey, I gothrough that too.
I think everybody does, andBrandon and Brian, I think you
would all concur with that ahundred percent.
Um, I want to dive into theHunt Tower a little bit and how
that came to be.
Um, I guess before the HuntTower came to be, I wasn't even
real estate.
The hunt tower came to be, Iwasn't even real estate.
It wasn't even a thought on myradar.
I was playing college baseballand diving and getting dirty and

(21:06):
stuff.
So how did that?
How did that come to be?
What did that look like?
Um, the process of even evenputting that there and what.
What part did you play in that?

Speaker 4 (21:16):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It was the.
It really kicked off thelandscape, the area.
And tallest building, I think,was the Parkway Tower where our
offices were six stories.
That's the Mercy logo and NBClogo on it now, yeah.
And then the Embassy Suites.
I think it's actually tallerbut it sits down lower in the
ground, and so those are the twobuildings and traditionally all

(21:39):
the office buildings inNorthwest Target so I built that
time were two or three storiesand some single stories.
But this real estate, the dirtitself, is becoming so precious
in so few acreage, although manypeople thought we had all this
land.
But you've been in developmentbusiness, you realize pretty
quickly after just a fewbuildings you're going to use it

(21:59):
a lot.
Yeah, so we determined prettyquickly Where's the camera?

Speaker 2 (22:05):
This photo was showed .
We had Paul Gatlin on last weekand he shared this photo.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, we'll get them to flash it up on the before and
after of well over a particularperiod of time of what this
peneflaria looked like.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
So we convinced.
Of course, one of the reallyfun things about working for Mrs
Hunt is she and her husband,her late husband, Mr Hunt and
they were such a great team andthey loved each other
tremendously but were reallygood partners to each other.
And he was just out there, hadthe vision, Nothing scared him,

(22:40):
he was going to go do it.
He had a can-do attitude andMrs Hunt was happy with whatever
.
She was very content and shewas always following behind him,
making sure that bills got paidand he was collected.
That's true.
So Mr Hunt had already had histragic accident, had passed away
, mrs Hunt had stepped in anddid a fabulous job of starting

(23:01):
to run Hunt Ventures, and so wedecided Tim Graham and John
George and myself, working withKen Scheman and Mrs Hunt, knew
we had to build another buildingbecause General Mills at the
time was needing space.
General Mills was a keycustomer at JB Hunt Transport
that Mrs Hunt really valued andtreasured, and so we really

(23:24):
wanted to take care of GeneralMills and put them in this new
building, hunt Tower.
Yeah, and so we brought thisgentleman, tom Herman Tom it's
not Herman Tom, something elseout of Minneapolis down and we
stood at the sixth floor andlooked over the side and said
we're going to build a buildingright there, and when do you
need it?
And he said I don't think youcan get it done in time Really,

(23:45):
and that Mrs Hunt had a littlebit of her husband there and she
said well, you just watch.
And so we started withoutcontracts, without anything.
We got a hold of CrosslandConstruction and Core Architects
and Craft, toll and many othersput a big group together and so
we were going to make sure wedelivered that.
Well, guess what?
We started construction on it.
And then I got an email andphone call from Tom and he just

(24:08):
said at that time, do youremember the Arab craze was no
carbs in the cereal market, justdie, yep, at Gannett's Diet.
And he said I got to back out.
I said we've already startedyour building.
You're not the only tenant andthey were going to take about
40,000 feet and the building's230,000.

(24:29):
So we already had it designedand going.
I wasn't too concerned because Iknew the demand was there in
this market and I knew we'd fillup with other.
But it was still unnerving.
And Mrs Honey immediately justsaid let's go down to seven
stories.
And I said we've already gotthe building designed for 10 and
we're starting to pour footings.
She goes well, can't we doseven?

(24:50):
I said, well, we can, but it'spretty expensive.
And so the funny story is thatshe was just so reserved and
cautious and conservative andshe just doesn't throw money
around like that, right, and weconvinced her to continue on
with the 10-story and we did alot of other things in there
that she was instrumental in andGeorge Anderson, her designer
out of Little Rock, helped withthe design of the building.

(25:11):
It was the first one that hadthat material that actually
changes colors when the sun hitsit.
Yeah, so we went forth and webuilt 10 stories, even though
she was worried that are wegoing to fill this up?
And it turns out it.
It filled up in record time.
Yeah, funny story about it wasshe said okay, tom, if you don't
fill that up, then you don'thave a job.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
To this day I'm here because we I was about to say
that that takes some guts forsure to stand up with that kind
of confidence and say, no, Ithink we shouldn't do that.
Did it feel like you were?
I mean, you knew for sure thatthis was the right move.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Oh, I did, I knew it was there, but you still go to
bed at night going what have Idone?
And you're like I did, but whathave we done?
It was a team, yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
They told him he couldn't do it, so that was
their fault for saying that.
Yeah, so I'm just going to makesure I got Lisa because I
needed the job.
What's even the timeline looklike for to be able to pour
footings.
Like what's that before processand we don't have to super deep
dive in.
But like what's the time framefor a commercial building like
that, which is out of my sphereof expertise?
Like what is that?
Is it like a year or two yeartype?
Could be.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
It could be two years , depending on entitlements and
where you get with the city onif there's rezone or if there's
uh, if there's any kind ofcontamination with the soil,
whatever that.
But typically I think thatbuilding was a fast track.
Yeah, also really worked withus.
The city worked with us quite abit and gave us some uh,
because we we told them inadvance what we're doing and if

(26:39):
you'll work with us onincrementally approving this and
doing that.
And it was new for them.
They had to go to Little Rockwith their fire department and
inspection division to look athow do we look at these tall
buildings?

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Do you look at working with the city as more of
like a team, as opposed to I'mworking against the city?
Is it more of like how can wehelp each other?
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (27:01):
At the time it was Womack as the mayor and now it
was Heinz and it's been the samewith Heinz.
But they've been a partner.
We've I've always said thatthey've been as much of a
partner as our DC and as ourarchitect and our engineers and
everybody else we work with um,because they've they've had the
attitude this is good for areaand they do it with all the
developers here too.

(27:21):
So one thing too, that Mrs Huntand everybody Hunt Ventures and
Sage Partners.
We realize that we get a lot ofattention for what Mrs Hunt has
done here, but we really knowthat the Wisenhunt family has
done a lot.
Larice and her family has donea lot.
Chad has done a lot over herewith his development and many
others.
But yes, the city has been.

(27:43):
When we speak to architects anddevelopers from New York or
Philadelphia or wherever itmight be, and they ask about
entitlement process and how long, and I tell them how long it
takes, they just go Lee, yeah,and I said yeah, we have a
really good relationship withthe city and they're
pro-business, so it's been realrefreshing.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
That's incredible.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Let's do it.
And that was an interestinglike we went into the
development and like thedifferent nuances there.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
You guys do existing deals as well.
How do you look at development?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
differently than you know, something that's already
built.
You know you have to.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
I guess, with an extra layer of caution, with
yeah, I guess you know somethingthat's already built.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
You know you have, I guess, with an extra layer of
caution with yeah, I guess youknow, leave it to you Most of
well, hunt Ventures, I don'tbelieve, has bought any existing
structures.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
They've always developed or ground up.
So that's their perspective.
I've been involved with some ofmy partners some EJ Leffler,
marshall, brian Shaw Mrs Hunthas been an investor with us in
some of these and some otherpeople too where we've bought
existing buildings and then wehave to go in and improve them
or modify them or do something,and it is more challenging

(28:51):
because you know you don't havea relationship with the
architect that designed it.
Many times that architect hascome and gone and you don't know
where they are.
Yeah, and you don't know wherethey are.
Yeah, and you don't have allthe bones.
You have to solve the mystery.
Yeah, and you've got elevatorshafts that aren't great and the
box itself is not good andyou've got all kinds of things.
So it's a different animal, butthat's kind of more the

(29:14):
creative side to how can I makethis law looking buildings look
nice.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
I want to dive a little bit into the hunt tower
and you, from you personally,from the start to the finish of
that thing.
My wife and I were just talkinglast night on finding peace
through the process and a lot oftimes we we say in life, like
okay, when we get here, so likewhen the hours finished, like
then y'all have this euphoriclike how here, so like when the
hot hours finish, like thenyou'll have this euphoric like
moment.
How, how did you, how did youor did you find peace in the

(29:44):
process of the hot tower?
And what did that look like?
Was it an every night, like mybrain's just rapid fire, or am I
?
Am I taking a deep breath andknowing that like it's going to
be okay, we're going to get tothe finish line?
What did that look like for you?

Speaker 4 (29:56):
well, I never had any doubt we'd get to the finish
line.
We had such a great team ofpeople and you know you're
talking to me and I was verymuch a part of that but we had a
great team at the time.
John George was there, emGraham was there, mrs Hunt
obviously was there, jordanAnderson and then the teams from
Crossland and Core Architectsand Craft Toll and many others.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
We were friends yeah, I love that about commercial
real estate is you can like alot more efficiently and better
build teams around you andcommercial like it's the
business model is built to havegood team, like extensions yeah,
that's what I love about.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
So you, so you're pretty at peace in the process
at peace.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, you know still that at the end of the day they
can finish the project and thenI've got to lease it up.
Yeah, that was mine.
So that's.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
That's when the, that's when the start line
started, for you was hey, we'redone.
Time, time.
Uh, tom, it's time.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
Yeah, well, we had um one, two, so I lost general
mills.
They ended up coming back so webuilt another building for for
them, called we call foundersclass.
Uh, that and that's arelationship we have.
Tom called me back one one dayand said now we're ready to go,
would you build us a buildingagain?
He goes I know what I did toyou.
Oh, I get it, we're there foryou.

(31:16):
But you know so I'm pre-leasing.
Y'all understand pre-leasing.
Yes, so I'm pre-leasing.
We had the Harvest Group come in.
Yeah, quite a success storywith company, where what they
started and what they ended updoing, they're the largest
tenant in the building now.
Well, we had, uh, at that time,advantage sales and marketing,

(31:37):
who came in after general millsand took three floors wow,
70,000 square feet.
And then we had con ag,remittal, uh, coitory company
and um, ncr and um.
So we pre-leased quite a bit.
So Harvest Group moved in firstand then Advantage Sales and
Marketing very shortlythereafter that was roughly
100,000 square feet, almost halfthe building.

(31:58):
So that really helped.
I knew things were coming.
Yeah, you were good.
And so one thing too throughthe university we keep up with
what occupancy for the market isand absorption rates and we
keep building buildings and wekind of set the pace and we want
to make sure that we keep thatmomentum going.

(32:20):
We keep and right now we'rebehind.
Everybody else is behindbecause we get calls and we get
calls, callers get calls,everybody CB gets calls, you
name them.
Everybody's getting calls andthere's nowhere to put these
tenants and so the building wehave under construction now.
It's not going to be done untilMay of 2026.
And so it's a right.

(32:40):
Now it's Chinese checkers,dominoes.
However you want to do it,we're moving people around and
downsizing, upsizing, and peopleare having to work from home
more than they want to becausethere's nowhere else to go.
But I was confident that it wasgoing to get built correctly,
it was going to look good andthat it was going to be the
apple of everything here.

(33:01):
Mr Hunt called this the heartof the watermelon.
We knew that the attractionwould be, that At that time we
were setting the market at $26,$7 a foot in rent.
We thought, can?
We knew that the attractionwould be.
At that time we were settingthe market at 26, seven bucks a
foot in rent.
We thought can we get that?
Well, today we're getting 40bucks yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
You know that's insane that you, you mentioned a
building that you guys arebuilding right now.
Is that the visionary?
Yes, okay, and tell, tell us alittle bit about that.
What.
What's that gonna look like?
Be?
What's's the foundation behindthat?

Speaker 4 (33:30):
So the Visionary is right across from Topgolf, yep,
and it's the big concretestructure that you can see,
those two big cranes that areout there now, and I guess
there's a few things that aredifferent about it.
So it's going to be on theopposite side of the plaza where
we have the fountains, outsideof what is called Founders Plaza
, where General Mills andCoca-Cola and those companies

(33:52):
are now.
And the same thing that leasedup pretty quickly and that was
in the mid-30s in rents and Ithought we're never going to get
that and we got those and then,because of interest rates and
construction costs, we just keephaving to push the bar higher
in order to get any kind of adecent return on the investment.
Yeah, rents have got to follow,mm-hmm.
But all the tenants in themarket and employees, everybody

(34:16):
they want amenities.
It's not like when I went towork at Walmart where they
watched every minute of what youdid.
Yeah, you better be working.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, no windows, nothing.

Speaker 4 (34:25):
There was none of this ping pong Pong, there was
none of this ping pong Go bike,yeah.
But today our office buildingshave got everything from golf
simulators to fountains, tooutdoor kitchens, to we've got a
basketball court, we've all gotfitness centers, you name it.
We've got all these amenitiesin them.

(34:47):
So the visionary is going tohave on the top floor.
Part of the top floor is goingto have what was going to be a
pickleball court, okay.
But we decided that now thatwe're up there and the wind that
comes through here may not bethe best thing in the world,
because it's a wiffle ball thewind is just about taking the
blood off the roof, yeah.

(35:08):
The wind is just about takingthe water off the roof, yeah.
So we're going to have allkinds of things like
shuffleboard and some cornholethings, and so nice sofa and
seating area and some cover andsome not Outdoor grills, fire
pits just a place for people togather and take a break from,
and some ping pong tables if thewinds don't want to.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Are they able?

Speaker 2 (35:27):
to walk to Topgolf and Saltgrass and all the
restaurants right there from thebuilding, or do you have to get
in the car?

Speaker 4 (35:34):
No, you certainly can walk.
That's one thing about there.
We're making it walkable, we'redesigning sidewalks With the
city's partnership in privateprobably what we're doing to
where you can walk to Topgolf,to the AMP concerts, the
restaurants nearby.
We want people to gather inthat fountain area we call the
plaza of Founders Plaza there.
We want people just to go thereand sit and enjoy having a

(35:56):
water feature behind you.
That's one thing I picked upwhen I was in Dallas at an ICSC
conference and we had some timeto wait and it was actually in
the 40s kind of cold for Dallas.
Yeah, I went to a Starbucksinto a development area where
there's some office complexesand it was crowded inside.
So I took my coffee out and Isat on the edge of a water

(36:18):
fountain, yeah, and there waslike 50 people out there and I
got to thinking people like tobe around water.
Yeah, they like to be aroundfountains.
This is an attraction.
It's kind of soothing, it'sjust people just are attracted
to it.
And so I convinced Mrs Hunt forus to do that for Founders Plaza
, which the visionary will bebacked up to, and it was extra

(36:41):
money.
It was a different kind ofconcept for Mrs Hunt to think
about because it was a lot ofmoney to do that, about add,
because it was a lot of money todo that, but it really pays off
because the people enjoy it.
It sets you apart from theothers and it just adds to the
longevity of being able to keepand retain tenants there.
So smart.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
I think that's so cool.
Dallas has a lot of cool likeI'm an investor in.
I love, I'd invest ineverything if I could in
Northwest Arkansas, but you knowI'm invested in Dallas and
Dallas has a lot of cooldistricts like Uptown and stuff.
And I think NWA is very unique.
It gets inspirations from, youknow, dallas, from Denver, from
these other cities, but it putsits own unique spin on it, like

(37:19):
not just affecting your topeople that your tenants and
residents, but the people aroundyou that are going to be in the
community and I think that'sreally cool and unique about
northwest arkansas, the city,working with the developers who
have want the same vision, notjust you know, roi, you know,

(37:41):
which I'm not as blessed to benot as I'm very focused on roi
at my stage in life but some,you know some endowments and
larger corporations are not youknow, if this walkability we
have to pay a little extra thatgoes goes a long way.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, thinking about the community is huge For you.
Fast forwarding 10 years to thePinnacle area, rogers area.
What does it look like?
What does the skyline look like?
Is it?
Are we going taller?
The skyline look like is it?
Are we going taller?
Are we staying the same height?
Are we going wider?
What does it look like to you?
If you had to make a prediction, I guess you.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
You probably have the best insight out of a lot of
people here well, I don't knowabout that, but it's um, that
it's, you know it's.
I also like people will makesome really nice compliments
about, uh, mrs hunt and myselfand others involved with what
we've done at Hunt Ventures andthere.
But they say, man, you just gottheir greatest master plan that

(38:38):
you've put together here.
And I said, yeah, all 20 ofthem have been great.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
They change all the time.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Yeah, it's opportunistic and you make sure
it fits right.
But somebody would come alongwith this concept or that and
think, well, we can change this,we can do that and we work
really well with our engineersand architects to do that.
But at the end of the day,everything is strategically
placed and located Height-wiseas well.
Visionary is not going to be astall because we wanted to
preserve some view corridor forthe Founders Plaza and Hunt

(39:07):
Tower.
We could just go out there andbuild, really because we wanted
to preserve some view corridorfor the Founders Plaza and Hunt
Tower.
You know, we could just go outthere and build really tall
buildings just for the sake ofbuilding tall buildings.
But Mrs Hunt's not about doingthat, she's whatever makes sense
, whatever's going to make money, whatever is best for the whole
area.
But what's going to happen?
I think we're going to see sometaller buildings, probably see

(39:27):
over the you mentioned long-term10, 20 years, you'll probably
see some teardowns of somebuildings that probably have
outlived their lifespan and itcould be better utilized if they
were scraped and start over.
It'll probably be some of that.
And then probably less surfaceparking and more even some
current surface parking probablyconverted to some parking

(39:49):
garages with maybe some combinedoffice and even residential in
them, and then on the top floorsof these you see in bigger
markets like Dallas what theycall podiums.
You'll see parks on the top ofthese structures where there's
grass and trees and things likethat.
Yeah, I see that in 10 to 20years here.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Do we have airspace restrictions here on how how
tall we can go, and this area isthere uh, they're.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
Yeah, in the new udc that was put in place it was
increased and I forgot what thelimit is, but I think you can
build 20 to 25 stories orsomething like that.
That's interesting and theywere good.
They asked question.
You know what's the limit.
They asked me and several otherdevelopers in the room what is
it, and I said I'm not preparedto tell you how tall it is, but

(40:35):
I don't like to be limited.
That doesn't mean we're goingto build to max, where anybody
else would too.
So the city was very good aboutthat.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
As far as loosening up height restrictions, yeah, it
seems like a lot of cities'visions are to try to make the
areas more walkable too.
Do you think in the next 10years or so?
You mentioned a little bit ofresidential, but do you think
that the Pinnacle area couldcontinue to kind of be more
densely populated?
I know office buildings arekind of the biggest thing, but

(41:04):
people love to kind of be closeto things.
Do you see that part of thevision as well?

Speaker 4 (41:08):
I do of the kind of be close to things.
Do you see that part of thevision as well?
I do.
I think you'll see morecombination of office and
residential together andprobably some retail on the
bottom, just like you'd see in acity whether it's a sandwich
shop or whether it's a cleanersor a FedEx, kinko's or something
like that, ups and someboutique restaurants.
You'll see that on the firstfloor.

(41:30):
But we're definitely going tosee more people living in the
Pinnacle area in a multi-storybuilding, I believe.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
It's ever changing, it's evolving, like you said,
like there's some space behindmy where I live, over in the
manors, behind Target.
You know that changed quite afew times as mixed-use
development to a cancer center.
I don't even know what theyhave right now.
They have some preserved landin between there, like you can't

(42:01):
know my zone or something.
But it's interesting to seethat landscape, seeing what's
going on and down.
You're very concentrated, itseems like from the outside
looking into Pinnacle, what areyour thoughts on?
Pinnacle is almost like anuptown, like it kind of reminds
me of uptown dallas, and then,you know, downtown rogers is
almost like a downtown, like alittle bit older.

(42:22):
Yeah, and we always talk about.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
like what's the word I'm trying to?
I always try to think of a wayto describe downtown Rogers and
I haven't quite gotten the rightword.
I've come up with the wordgritty before.
It's just got a different vibe.
It's too.
Totally you could be indowntown Rogers and come here
and be like is this the samestate?
I have most of my investmentproperties for downtown Rogers

(42:46):
because I like the vibe.
I think it's cool, freeconcerts and blah, blah, blah
and water.
You got Lake Atalanta rightthere and Beaver Lake.
I think it's super cool.
Then you come over here.
My wife loves being over here.
I like more being over there.
I think it provides a lot ofunique back and forth.

Speaker 4 (43:03):
They complement each other.
There's really no competition.
I've talked to several peoplewho invest into downtown
Bentonville the same way.
They don't look at it ascompetition.
Those are different markets,different flavors, different
desires, whatever you want to do, but they're really different.
There's only a few clients orprospects that I have really

(43:23):
competed against for downtownBentonville or downtown Rogers
Just a handful.
It's because they're different.
Or downtown Bentonville ordowntown Rogers, just a handful.
It's because they're different.
One of the big corporations thatwe got a lot of us are big
tenants.
You can't go to downtownBentonville as a side, with the
exception of the Ledger.
The Ledger was a big buildingbut it's full now.

(43:43):
But one of the guys that camein from Atlanta stood in the
Founders Plaza and looked at itand just said you know, for
example, downtown Benville iship, it's trendy, it's chic,
it's all this bougie, it's allthis stuff, right, yeah.
And he said but we're a big25,000 square foot corporate
America and this is wherecorporate America needs to be

(44:06):
right.
Here, yeah, and there's justthat different vibe.
And that's not a criticism inany other area, because you
could criticize Pinnacle and notbeing cool enough.
Yeah, because it's not trendyenough.
Yeah, and that's an area wherewe're trying to really work on
as well, because we don't havesome of the things that downtown
Bentonville or Rogers has and alot of people here want some of
those things, so want some ofthose things, so we're trying to

(44:26):
attract those as well.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
I think it's unique how you guys have heard me say
this before how our area is setup, as we have like different
things among a main vein, asopposed to like a dallas, a
houston.
It's like here's our main areaand then we spread out from
there and up here we have likerogers, downtown, rogers,
bentonville, fayetteville, downhere, and you have a bunch of
different.

(44:47):
You, you know, I justpersonally, wife and I, and you
guys can attest to the same aslike we might get a wild hair
and go up to downtownBentonville and drive 45 minutes
from Fayetteville.
There we might go to thepinnacle.
I think it provides a unique,um feel what.
One thing I wanted to ask you,uh, selfishly, is do you think

(45:12):
we will be getting a Delmonico's, a three forks or a Capitol
grill in the near future,because I am dying to have a
really real?
Do you think that's apossibility for us in the future
?
I do Good If we got a.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Ruth Chris, we got, we got, we got, we got a dad no,
shade no shade.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
I just went.
My dad and I we like going ontrips and stuff and when we go
to Dallas we love the ThreeForks and the Delmonicos.
I'm like man NWA could get oneof these.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
Yeah, well, I know that one of our friendly
neighborly developers had one ofthose restaurants you mentioned
on their list and they finallydecided the market wasn't ready
yet, but that was two years ago.
But I think that we have takenleaps and bounds since that
short time.
You know, when walmart madethat decision to put their

(45:53):
campus and now that it'sfinished, it made a world of
difference to, yeah, everybodyand we're that, we're that, uh,
we're that snowball, yeah, andit has become this.
Now it is really getting bigwhen it turns over and so we're
getting so many people moving inhere every day.
And then, if you look at thedemographic mix of who the

(46:15):
people coming in, with thepurchasing power they have and
the disposable income they have,and then just what they buy the
consumer aspect of what they'redoing the one that I really
can't believe is not here yet isApple.
They got it backwards, theywanted to go to Little Rock
first.
The one that I really can'tbelieve is not here yet is Apple
.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yeah, they got it backwards, they wanted to go to
Little Rock first and I said no,you need to come here first,
you need to come here first it'sinteresting You're still seeing
a little bit of that, like someof those larger brands that are
still choosing Little Rock overin North Des Moines, and
they'll knock against LittleRock.

Speaker 4 (46:51):
I live there, I love Little Rock, north of Arkansas,
and not against Little Rock, Ilive there, I love Little Rock.
We've got an office there andit's just.
Everybody knows it's not in ourown space but no, we, we're
going to get some of those andsome more.
And we're going to get somemore of Carl Garrett and those
guys that do great jobs at theirrestaurants.
We've got one going intoPinnacle Heights that Matthew
represented.
It's a good restaurant.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
I love the independent restaurant scene
that pops up Like you haveindependent steakhouses that pop
Gaskins, doe's, some of theseothers that are soon to be in
Rogers.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, yes, I see a steakhouse like what we talked
about being here Like that'smentally the only space I put it
Like.
I'm like, oh, if I'm going togo to Delmonico's Capitol Grill,
whatever, I'm going to go up toPinnacle, like that's the
thought.
So I think it fits well in thisenvironment.
Yeah, ruth, chris, just rocks.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
They're going to be in their location and this new
hotel that's being built isgoing to have Oakwood something
at the top.
It's got an outdoor patio, barin the room.
Got several locations acrossthe country and they're out of
South Carolina.
I believe They've got locationsin Nashville and places.
But it's really going to be anice day.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
I think that's the cool partabout what you do.
Not only are you creating thevision for the pinnacle area and
things like that, but you also,like you have the ability to
kind of fill the right tenantsand that's the thing about it.
I mean to create a, you know,kind of the vibe that we talk
about in downtown Rogers, orcreating the vibe or the you

(48:15):
know, the local, more boutiquerestaurants or things like that
that you want up here inPinnacle.
Like you all kind of have theability to build the space and
put the right people in here.
Like I mean I just thinkingabout those kinds of restaurants
around here, right people inhere.
Like I mean I just thinkingabout those kind of restaurants
around here like having rightsbarbecue, as that kind of has
their flagship not, I knowjohn's story.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, I know story.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Yeah, I would love to hear that too.
But like, obviously johnson istheir flagship but like you know
anybody that nobody's going tojohnson now over at pinnacle
because of the it's such a greatarea you can kind of eat inside
, eat outside, outside.
But yeah, tell us the story.
Yeah, dive into that story.
On the right Next one yeah.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
Well, we so, being in Arkansas boy, I grew up in
Russellville, so I went to HotSprings, quite a bit, yeah, and
so the Hunt family and everybodyelse, and so we were very
familiar with McClards and itjust, you know, it just didn't
deliver on what everybodythought of as hearts and didn't
work.
And the owners are friends ofmine, so I don't want to be
disparaging they and theyunderstand, and so, uh, but just

(49:15):
about, well, I was talking touh, Jordan, right, and trying to

(49:43):
get him to go in that space.
Yeah, I changed my mind.
I'd like to be in that location.
Oh man, You're about a week toolate.
I told him he goes, oh, he goes, whatever.
So time went on and then thecards just couldn't deliver.
And what was that?
You know it's a hard job inrestaurants, it's not just Not
easy.
There's all kinds, as you guysknow.
There's such capital investmentin sales system, there's

(50:07):
equipment and all kinds ofthings, and then it's labor
intensive and then all that.
And it just wasn't gelling andworking right and it wasn't
delivering on the product thatthey had hoped.
And so I called the owners andI said, hey, if I can get you
out of this lease, would you beinterested.
And they didn't want to atfirst.
I had to kind of talk them intoit and finally I got a little

(50:30):
Jordan.
I said Jordan.
I said do you want to be here?
Still, he goes, yeah.
So I put the two together, theyworked out a deal between the
two of them and to this day Istill don't know what they
worked out I don't want to knowwhat they worked out.

(50:52):
They came to an agreement to oneto buy a lease and uh, jordan
came in and utilized that patioand I mean, from day one it has
just rocked it.
Has they deliver?
Yeah, yeah, he does iteverywhere.
He goes.
The same thing with his littlerock location he's doing and
johnson, this obviously I didn'tknow he had a little rock
location yeah, down there inriver park, okay, down there off
of uh and rebsman, down thatarea, and uh been open about a
year I think, and it's doingreally well that and it's been
open about a year, I think, andit's done really well.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
That's amazing.
It's impressive for therestaurant, because that was
your venture into NorthwestArkansas was through the
restaurant business.
It's my first year there, yeah,yeah, I mean I don't know what
the I think the number gets downlike 50% success rate.
I think after five years thatgoes down significantly, like
your chance of going out ofbusiness.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
I bring up a point, though, that in real estate too,
in life, it's the same thing.
If you go forward to where it'snot a win-win for both parties,
it's not going to end well.
And in restaurants I know toowell that a certain percentage
of your revenue can go to rentor to a mortgage payment for
your real estate.
If it goes beyond that, you'restruggling.

(51:51):
Then you start cutting staff.
Then you manage your sales down, food costs go through the roof
.
People start quitting on youagain, whatever reasons your
customers start leaving.
So I'm very wary.
I don't want to be able to goand just gouge and get somebody,
particularly if it's not a.
You know the nationalcorporations.
If it's, if it's the flagship,they get it Right.

(52:13):
If you hire some, if you go,some franchisee that's quit
their job at the corporateAmerica and they're going to go
open up a subway or whatever itis, they get so excited They'll
pay anything.
Yeah, and I think.
No, I'm not.
I don't think we're going to dothis, because you know what
we're going to be replacing youin about two years.
So you've got to be realisticabout the rent that that

(52:36):
restaurant or retailer can pay.
And I've seen people over theyears and they say, yeah, I got
$30 triple net for this mom andpop store, great job.
And I said, well, enjoy itwhile it lasts.
Yeah, guess what.
They have to close up becausethey're spending too much on
real estate.
So you want to find that sweetspot where it's profitable for

(52:57):
the landlord but it's alsoprofitable for that tenant,
because it doesn't do any goodif they go out of business.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yeah Turn it over Such a good value of having a
good broker that can recognizethat and that like screen, like
the tenants, and doing that,like you're almost valuating the
potential tenant, just likethey are you.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
you're running the numbers it's more work on you if
you have to continue to definesomebody else to go back behind
that space and you gotta spendmore tenant improvement dollars
to change it for wherever goesin and it's it's not a good
situation I think.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
I think you can say the same for multifamily as well
, probably.
I mean, the more times you haveto turn over a unit, the more
times you have to repaint andreturn.
I mean the expenses add up.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
I can get high grants .
If I stop background checkingpeople and credit stores, I can
get whatever I want.
They turn them over in sixmonths.
So I think that rings true fora lot of things.
Let's go for a wrap up here.
Let's go through a rapid fire.
Little quick question round.
I'm assuming you do a lot ofbusiness meetings and stuff and
you're having always a drink ordoing.

(53:59):
I started for my businessmeetings going on walks with
people because I got tired of.
I did like one or two weekswhere I had like five cocktails
in a row and I was like I can't.
I was like Tori Tori's, my wife.
I was like I can't do thisanymore.
We got to start going on walks.
So I started doing walkmeetings with people.
What's your favorite spot for adrink or favorite spot to have
a business meeting here locally?

Speaker 4 (54:19):
Well, you're talking to a First Baptist Church deacon
Favorite spot for a walk.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
I don't drink for a walk.
I don't drink for a walk.
You used to ask favorite lunchspot.
Favorite lunch spot, favoritelunch or coffee?

Speaker 4 (54:30):
spot Well, so I you know a lot of coffee meetings
and my favorite coffee spot isConfident Coffee over here in
Pinnacle Heights.
Yeah, I think that Amber does agreat job.
I love the flavor of the coffee.
Heroes is in right here nextdoor.
It's a great, really good spots.
Those two are my two go-to fora lot of coffee meetings and I
love going there because it'swho's who you see.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Yeah, I've seen Tom at Heroes you and Matthew
together.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Sometimes I like don't go to one of them because
I'm like I'm going to run.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
That's work, done You're in your sweats.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
Yeah, so those are my coffee places and you know I'll
go to places for people whohave drinks.
I don't drink, but they'll havedrinks.
And then I got to plug Foxtrailfor Martin and his business
over there.
It's a great place over there,a cool spot.
And then that place that Ithink I've met you over there
once at Alex Blass' buildingthat's got the little bar there

(55:25):
with the little outdoor patio Iforgot what it's called, but
that's a good place to go theretoo.
I think, yeah, but bar therewith a little outdoor patio I
forgot what it's called.
That's a good place to go theretoo.
I think, yeah, but anyway, sowe do that.
Um, I love to just to walk thearea here and then, uh, lunch
spots I remember the countryclub, but I take people to
pinnacle quite a bit.
Yeah, it's just easy andusually get a table and setting.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Do that.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
It vibes in the country club, for sure what's
the best piece of advice you'veever received in real estate?

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Kind of what I said earlier.
The most intimidating thing Iever had to do was to present to
the Walmart executive committeeI consist of David Glass, Rob
Walton, tom Coghlan, donSoderquist, cole Peterson you go
down the list of all those bignames yeah, and they're
intimidating because they arehighly intelligent and not only
do they know operations of howto run a business and a retail,
but they get real estate.
So I remember my director andVP of real estate when I first

(56:20):
went before them to presentthese multimillion-dollar
opportunities was that they'regoing to ask you a question that
you don't know and don't youdare pretend that you know the
answer.
Tell them you don't know theanswer to that question, but you
will find out by the end of theday and you'll get back to them
.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
They can sniff a bull from a mile away.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
That's huge.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
And the second part to that, that you don't know,
but you're going to get backwith them with a timeline of
when you can get back with them.
It is huge.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
People are more impressed if you don't pretend
to know.
I mean, we all know people whowant to always try and impress,
but it's natural to want to sayI don't want them thinking I
don't know, it's okay, we don'tknow everything.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
They don't know everything.
You want to get that out infront too.
If you're beginning to start apartnership, you want to get
that out in front too, beforeyou go down the road and
actually, oh, I needed to getassistance.

Speaker 4 (57:12):
I also like to start interrupt you also like to give
credit where credit is due,because I know that I am not the
big guy.
I can't do this without a wholebunch of people helping me,
supporting me, guiding me,directing me, pouring resources
into me, so being humble.
And in real estate, there's alot of people that are very

(57:33):
prideful out there, andparticularly in the developer
world too, but I think it reallyshows a lot to a person that
gives credit to others thatcertainly deserve it, that don't
always get it.
We have a staff of accountantsthat never get any attention.
We can't do what we do withoutthem.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
No, totally.
I'm going to skip over one ofthem because it says if you
weren't in real estate, whatwould you be doing?
I think you did it, you were.
You started, uh, the burgerfriend, you did the burger stuff
and then, um, you were workingfor Walmart there.

Speaker 4 (58:04):
Um, I wanted to finish up with what is a hidden
gem in northwest arkansas thatyou don't think enough people
know about well, I mean, we hada lot of gems but they're
getting a lot of attention, butit's what's hard is we're so
close to the forest you can'tsee the tree, uh, forest,
because the trees, yeah, yeah, Idon't know how much everybody
outside the area thinks about,but obviously, crystal bridges,

(58:26):
yeah, our streams, our lakes,hiking, the bike trails that's a
great answer, but the can-dospirit of people is different
here.
People move in here and theyreally, when they get to know
people and meet people, there'sa different attitude amongst the
people that work here and livehere as far as being optimistic

(58:46):
and working together.
I love all of my competitors inreal estate in Northwest
Arkansas because we're partners,yeah, and we enjoy their
successes.
My friends at Collier's I'm sohappy that they do well.
Yeah, I really love thembecause they're good people and
you go to a different marketlike some cutthroat cities.
You don't always see that.

(59:07):
No, they really don't like eachother sometimes.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Speaking of liking each other like another final
question.
We're getting ready tointerview Matthew Allen, your
son.
I like you and, as a father ofone soon to be two, these guys
are talking about being a father.
Your son is successful in whathe does.
You're obviously verysuccessful.
Your daughter is successful instarting her family.

(59:35):
She's in real estate too, andsometimes you see, sometimes the
father or the patriarch to thefamily become successful, but
then the kids have problems.
You know, how do you?
What kind of advice do you havefor successful fathers?
And and then keeping that Couldhave done a whole hour on that,

(59:56):
keeping that going and, youknow, keeping that legacy going.
So, um, you know I guess.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
Yeah, well, the thing is that they know me too well,
so if I try to be the big shot,they're going to go dad, I've
seen you at your work.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I've seen you lose your cool.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
I've seen you do this .
I've seen you struggle to putsomething together in a house
and you get mad and throw itdown the hallway or whatever.
No, I tell you, one of the bestthings I've ever had the
opportunity is to be able tohave my son work with me and me
be able to be his mentor, so tospeak.
Also challenging, becauseyou've got a pretty good-sized
company and I've got to makesure that people see that I'm

(01:00:33):
not playing favoritisms for himand he has done a great job of
fitting in to where everybodylikes him in the company and
it's not seen as Tom's son.
He is his own man and has cuthis teeth and these aren't what
he's gotten.
But we make fun of ourselvesand our family, we joke about
ourselves, we laugh aboutourselves, so we don't take each

(01:00:54):
other too seriously because weput our faith in God and we know
that God is everything, amenand that he despises the pride
and loves the humble spirit.
Yeah, so we're all that way andI preach that even to this day
to my two young kids, and mywife has been instrumental as
well.
She is, yeah, he's thestrongman.

(01:01:15):
She's got the direct connectionto god.
Matthew, you might ask him aboutthis.
But, matthew, when he was injunior high and high school, my
wife kept praying that whateverhe was doing he'd get caught at
it.
And finally one day I lookedaround.
You've got to stop praying thatit keeps getting caught.
God's listening.
But you know, you just got tobe.

(01:01:36):
Don't take yourself tooseriously and just love on your
kids.
Know that they're going to makemistakes.
You don't always agree withwhat they do, whatever, but be
humble and don't take yourselftoo seriously.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Yeah, we're going to dive further into that with Matt
as well.
Tom, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
We really appreciate your timeit's been great.
Thank you for tuning in and wewill see you on the next episode
with Matt See.
Ya, if you enjoyed this show,make sure to give us a follow on
your favorite podcast platformso you never miss an update,
don't forget to connect with uson Instagram, facebook and
LinkedIn for more real estateinsights and behind the scenes

(01:02:12):
content.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Have a question you want us to cover, send it our
way, and if you're interested insponsoring the show, visit
nwainvestingcom to get in touch.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.