May 14, 2025 • 68 mins
What does five decades of commercial real estate experience teach you about market cycles, investment strategy, and staying power? On this episode, we dive deep with Dewitt Smith, a commercial real estate veteran whose career spans from playing football for the Arkansas Razorbacks in the 1960s to developing major commercial properties across the Southeast.
Dewitt shares his remarkable journey from civil engineering student to commercial real estate powerhouse, including his 22-year tenure with Cooper Communities and his current role leading Devereux Management Company. His unique perspective includes buying the same prime property—Village on the Creeks in Rogers—twice in his career, demonstrating his commitment to location-based investing and relationship building.
With experience through multiple economic cycles, Dewitt offers refreshingly practical wisdom about today's market conditions. Having weathered mortgage rates as high as 16.25% in 1980, he reminds us that current rates aren't historically high—we've simply adjusted to an anomalous decade of near-zero interest. His approach to capitalizing deals properly and maintaining reserves has allowed him to thrive through downturns while positioning to seize opportunities when others couldn't.
For Northwest Arkansas investors, Dewitt's insights on our region's continued growth potential are particularly valuable. He identifies the "big five" economic drivers—Walmart, JB Hunt, Tyson, the University of Arkansas, and the medical community—that will sustain NWA's momentum while acknowledging infrastructure challenges that accompany rapid expansion.
Whether you're a seasoned commercial investor or looking to enter this space, Dewitt's journey offers invaluable lessons about patience, market selection, and the importance of relationship-based business. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with the visionaries shaping Northwest Arkansas real estate.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast, your
go-to source for real estateinvesting in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
With your seasoned investor just starting out.
We bring you expert insights,market trends and practical
strategies to help you buildwealth through real estate.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
From buying and selling to property management
and long-term investmentplanning.
We cover it all so you can makesmart, informed decisions in
this fast-growing market.
Let's dive in.
Welcome back to another episodeof NWA Investing, where we dive
into the minds of industryleaders shaping the real estate
landscape here in NorthwestArkansas.
We've got Mr Dewitt Smith herewith us.
(00:43):
He's been in real estate forover five decades right, that
would be true and that's awesome.
And so we're pumped to get tojust chat through your story and
deals you've done and what yourbusinesses look like.
And I've got Brian Wagers withme, of course, and Zach
Stanley's out for a little bit,but we're kind of holding it
(01:04):
down for a little bit.
So, mr Dewitt, thanks forcoming with us.
Appreciate it.
We're happy to have you and wevalue your time a lot.
So we're appreciative thatyou'd come on and chat with us.
So we'd love to.
Obviously there's a lot tounpack here with a lot of what
you've done in the commercialspace deals and management and
things like that.
(01:24):
But give us just a 30,000-footview of your story, kind of
where you're from, how you gotstarted, what you've done, stuff
like that Good.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Well, I'm originally from Forest City, arkansas, over
in the Delta, and I went toschool at the University of
Arkansas.
I was fortunate to back in theday to have an athletic
scholarship.
We went and played footballthere in the 60s that's awesome
(01:58):
and was in engineering school.
I was good in math and didn'tknow where I was going, so went
to engineering school, graduatedin civil engineering and uh
went to work uh, with my cousinin uh cincinnati for a year and
he was developing someapartments and I was doing some
(02:20):
related things and had anopportunity to go back to
graduate school, get an MBA, anddid that.
It took two years and I went towork in South Florida for Arvada
Corporation and that was ArthurVining Davis was this wealthy
(02:45):
dude that bought up a bunch ofland down there.
He owned like 100,000 acres inSouth Florida, oh, wow.
And he also owned the BocaRaton Hotel and Club and so I
worked with them for about fiveyears and then came back to
South Florida.
Was it was neat the first yearwhen, you know, in the
(03:09):
wintertime you didn't have toput on a jacket, yeah, but after
you got, you know, if you grewup in a temperate climate, you
kind of you know Summers aretough up there, yeah.
So came back and went to workwith uh fairfield communities
and uh was, uh was at uhfairfield bay, arkansas, for a
(03:35):
couple of years and then wentover to uh north carolina.
They had a, they had a nearcashiers North Carolina, not
cashiers at back yes, yes,cashiers North Carolina,
fairfield, sapphire Valley, theycall it and work there.
Came back to Arkansas and wentto work with Cooper communities
(04:01):
at communities that built inBella Vista, of course, Yep.
And I was with them actually for22 years Went to South Carolina
and headed up a developmentthere called Fairfield I'm sorry
, called Lord, forget the nameof the place now, but anyway I
(04:28):
was there for 10 years.
Savannah Lakes Village was thename of that.
Yes sir, and it was on theSavannah, a lake on the Savannah
.
River there Boom, and so I wasthere for about 10 years and
came back with Cooper and thenbegan running there.
(04:50):
That was a Savannah LakesVillage was a Bella Vista-like
retirement development.
Yeah, came back and headed upthere real estate, commercial
real estate, real estate,commercial real estate.
Starting that they had someexcess cash and they invested a
(05:11):
lot of it in commercial realestate and we owned properties
across the southeast and managedthose properties and I left
them and went started on.
Or Devereaux was kind ofhanging around as an investment
arm and I activated it and weended up buying.
(05:36):
I and some partners I was ageneral partner bought Village
on the Creeks in Rogers.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Pretty close to here in Pinnacle area, right Yep.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
And I've been operating with some form of that
with some Devereaux hasinvested with partners in
several other investments.
We were part of a group inLittle Rock called Caprock Okay
(06:15):
and I was one of the generalpartners there.
There were two Caprock funds,each of which had about $100
million in equity Cool and thosefunds are now one of them is
ended, the other is got kind oftransitioned and got four
buildings left that were sold toa different Gotcha.
(06:38):
But then I've been working withpartners here in northwest
Arkansas and you may know ConnorEldridge and Steve Brooks
Eldridge and Brooks, theirpartners and then Tom Gordon,
(07:00):
who actually is married to aDevereux.
That's awesome.
Tom Gordon is president of SlimChickens.
Oh, yeah, he and Greg Smart havebeen with us and we've invested
in several things here inNorthwest Arkansas Amazing
Including we bought Village onthe Creek's back from.
That's amazing.
(07:20):
I've owned it twice.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, that's probably some of the most diverse
experience we've had on thepodcast.
Just getting into it, that'samazing.
So I've owned it twice.
Yeah, that's probably some ofthe most diverse experience
we've had on the podcast.
Just getting into it, that'sawesome.
So I'd love to dive in a littlebit to what you kind of just
mentioned there.
So you, university of Arkansas,right originally, right, right
In the 60s.
That's a good time to playfootball for the Hogs right, we
had a run there yeah, that'sawesome.
(07:45):
The hogs right, we had a runthere.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Come some great teammates, uh,that are well known and it's uh
that's cool to see that you'repart of that you may actually
actually uh, pat morrison, whowas an all southwest, uh
conference.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Uh, tight end and and uh, chuck dikus, who was all
american, then playton.
The pros are.
They have the real estate.
They both still have theirlicenses and work with me.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, that's cool.
We were just talking about thaton the last podcast, like
whether to go to the debate onsending your kids to college
nowadays or not.
So we're having a Harvard MBAgrad on our next episode.
We should ask him his thoughtson that.
But, like, you talk about howyou're doing deals with people
that you went to college withand you still have a big smile
on your face talking about guysyou're still doing business with
(08:30):
in school.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I'm a big advocate of the advanced degrees you know,
of getting a college degree andeven beyond that if it suits,
yeah, and it's as much theexperience as it is what you
learn in the classroom,absolutely, and so I think folks
(08:54):
that miss that miss out on them.
And college is not foreverybody and experience can be
gained in other fashion.
I think we all do can be gainedin other fashion, but I
certainly, if you've got thecapability, I would recommend to
anybody that they find a way togo.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You mentioned to it soundedlike your first, maybe your
first job out of college.
You went up to Cincinnati,right, and you started working
on the Swahili Born and raised.
You went up to Cincinnati,right, you started working on
the—.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That's where I was born and raised Cincinnati.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah yeah right there .
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Actually, we were in Fairfield, fairfield, yeah, yeah
.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So it sounds like fresh out of college.
Your first opportunity was in areal estate-related field.
Did your family have any realestate experience prior?
I mean, were you thinking aboutreal estate experience prior?
I mean, were you thinking aboutreal estate before you even
decided on this job?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
I just wandered through, I didn't know where I
was going and my cousin Hedsonhe actually had also been to
Harvard and gotten an MBA and hewas developing an apartment
project and he had a bunch ofpartners.
I was more on the constructionside there.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Okay, yeah, and then, kind of sometime in that
experience you mentioned, youcame back here to work with
Cooper, who's kind of been theoriginators of everything that's
happened in Bella Vista andeverything.
What did that role look like,just curious.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Well, I hired on with them actually to go start
Savannah Lakes Village the onein South Carolina, gotcha and so
I was only here for about sixmonths before they completed
that deal.
It was interesting it was forthe first time it was a joint
(10:52):
venture with the state of SouthCarolina and they actually
funded the infrastructure.
At that point they had newregulations that required that
in order to sell a lot, you hadto have it had to be paved and
(11:12):
services within a year, and soobviously belvista didn't do
that, didn't have that, and sothat was the the reason for and
the state was interested becausethe particular county where
this was was about to gobankrupt and it actually did
(11:33):
stimulate that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I love that, yeah.
So then I guess, kind ofleading up into where we are now
, when did you start DevroManagement Company?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
It's been around since about 84.
Okay, but I really activated itin around 2000.
I mean in the form that it'snow yeah In 2010.
Okay, 2010.
Bob Village on the Creeks.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Okay, got you.
So that's Devereux ManagementCompany.
Is now how many employees?
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, actually we've only got six full-time employees
.
Okay, six full-time employees.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
And then so, what all is it?
Property management, I assume,maybe real estate.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Property management and a lot of property management
can be outsourced, contracted,but you have to have some good
leadership, absolutely yeah.
So it's property management andinvestment in the form of
limited partnerships, investingand purchasing properties with
(12:44):
commercial properties.
This has been our game, withother capital coming from some
limited partners.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
And then we have a brokerage arm that has been
solely commercial, but we're nowBo Morris and Pat's son has
come on with us and we'reexpanding into some residential
work as well.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
That's awesome.
So does that includedevelopment, or is it
multifamily specific or is thereany?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
We can do development .
But two questions there yeah,we can do development and we'll
do bail-to-suits.
We have not done any recently.
We've looked at just purchasingexisting properties and the
other part of that was Justmultifamily.
(13:43):
Yeah, just multifamily.
Yeah, a joke around the realestate world is multifamily.
Residential is exactly likecommercial, only different, and
when I was with Cooper, we ownedapartments in Memphis and in
(14:04):
Atlanta and so I totaled about1,800 units.
So I have some experience overthere.
But it takes a differentmanagement game and we are not
currently organized to do that.
We're commercial.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yes, absolutely, I think a lot of uh.
It's interesting we've had someother property managers, uh,
come in and and uh and sit withus and chat and most of them are
specifically in themulti-family smaller, larger, uh
property management game, andso I'd love to dive in a little
bit more on on what thatmanagement looks like and
(14:42):
everything as we get going alittle bit.
But tell me so, devereux, is itstrictly northwest Arkansas,
what you all have, or is itspread out?
You mentioned the south.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
I still have an ownership interest in some
properties in South Carolina andactually Omaha and Kansas City.
Okay, and we're looking to.
I'm actually part of what Iwork today is making an offer on
(15:21):
a property in Greenville, SouthCarolina.
That's awesome.
Ironically, Social SecurityAdministration, which has been
Doge-approved.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah, pass that test Love it.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
And so now we're just going to make an offer and
whoever owns it may not like,may like somebody else better.
Yeah, it's.
It's always challenging to beable to get enough return to
attract the investors.
(15:57):
Right, yeah, get the deal, youknow.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Right, so that's a single tenant?
Is that it's a single tenant?
Is?
Speaker 4 (16:03):
that we, we prefer multi-tenant.
But in this case it's got afive-year guaranteed.
And then anything with the GSA,with the Government Services
Administration.
They'll have some ounce if itdoesn't get funded and blah,
(16:27):
blah, blah and they have thoseouts.
In the second it's a 10-yearlease but saying in five years
has those outs?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, do you go into that, like some of our investors
, like diving into deals andthat deal specifically would you
hold it for five years?
Would you hold it for 10 years?
Would you hold it forever?
How do you look at that deal?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
In that one.
We always look at a 10-year10-year and can't hold longer,
although most investors want toturn at some point the passive
investors.
But so we always go where weplan for 10.
We're opportunistic within thatand in this case we kind of if
(17:21):
we get the deal we would plan on, we plan on them staying.
They've been there for a longtime and we think they would
stay and wouldn't even gosomewhere unless Social Security
goes away.
I don't care what they say.
It's not so that when you haveless than five years left on a
(17:50):
single tenant, the market tendsto punish you a bit for the term
of the lease.
So if we were going to try tosell it, if we weren't going to
go to the 10, you know it's in agreat location, so if they left
(18:11):
we'd have a good opportunity.
But if we were going to try tosell it with them in place, we'd
try to do it with someturnaround.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, so I'd love to dive intosomething that you mentioned
there.
Uh, kind of what, maybe whatyour, your buy boxes look like
over the years?
You guys started in in theeighties, um, maybe starting to
purchase property and stuff likethat, but what, what did it
look like when you were firststarting?
What kind of property were youlooking for then?
(18:42):
And and, uh, and how has thatkind of changed over the years?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Well, we inherited some.
Cooper had already bought someapartments, so I inherited that
back at that period.
But we were always focused oncommercial Office, which has
(19:10):
taken lumps.
Now we see it recover.
In northwest Arkansas there's4% vacancy yeah, crazy, and we
see it beginning.
To those who preach the deathof office because people can
work from home, I just another Ican't remember which company
today announced that everybody'scoming back to the office
(19:32):
because you get more done withthe interaction.
Imagine that.
Imagine that.
So, but we had focused more onoffice.
We had done.
Major Village on the Creeks isprimarily office, but it's mixed
use.
It has other retail in thereand some retail in there and
(19:55):
some studios.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
There's a restaurant.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
We've got several restaurants, so it's called
mixed use, but so we've donethat.
I'll kind of frame.
There are two kinds of retailopportunities generally and
there's some blends, but big boxcentered, and that has the
(20:24):
danger that we've all beenlooking at with big boxes going
bankrupt.
And big boxes also have theirlease and you're working for
them rather than them leasingfrom you, so to speak.
The other is mom and pops, andwith mom and pops you kind of
(20:46):
have to, and we do well withI've done well in that arena
because I think, because Iunderstand that it's I don't
care how long you write thelease, it's month to month, mom
and pop.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
But there's some great tenants and we were
fortunate we retained all butone of our of our uh small
tenants there in village on thecreek during the uh pandemic and
when it was really you know,because we stepped forward and
(21:27):
gave them some pre-rent and saidwe'll work with you if you'll
lengthen your lease.
And we worked that out and theycame back and we only lost one.
Yeah, and so you know, believeit or not, when something is
(21:48):
good for both parties, it'sgenerally better.
Yeah, most of most not.
A lot of the real estate worldtreats it that way.
You know you want to dominateeither as a landlord or you want
to dominate like the big boxesas a tenant, but it really, if
(22:09):
it works for both, it's better.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, I think that's the thing that people don't talk
about super often is, you know,when we're us as investors.
You know, oftentimes people canjust look at a spreadsheet and,
you know, make decisions andthink that everything just runs
off of this pro forma orwhatever.
But at the end of the day it'sstill a people business and
there's things that can happenthat we don't plan for.
(22:34):
You're out of pro forma for andbeing able to work around and
be nimble and things like that.
I think that's really importantto note for investors that are
kind of thinking about thisspace that you're in.
I think that's good.
So it sounds like a lot ofretail, some big box and some
(22:54):
you know pretty much study runfrom big box.
Yeah.
So strip centers kind of, ifyou will, stuff like that sounds
like that's the bread andbutter.
Um, I love that.
What, what about?
I'm just curious too.
On, you know, obviously youguys have been at it for, let's
see, 20, 40 years, I guess, ormore, since Dev Rose, since Dev
(23:17):
Rose has been around, so what Imean?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
obviously you've seen , you know, so many different
real estate cycles over theyears and so I'm curious you
know how has, when you haveinvestors involved, how has the
way that you look at dealschanged or return expectations
(23:41):
changed?
I guess, generally speaking,passive investors are God bless
them but they're excessivelygreedy and they expect returns
that are unachievable.
And we try to be realistic andnot show somebody returns that
(24:06):
we know we're not going toachieve and then 10 years later
we don't achieve them and hopethey forget.
And that's tough, you know it'stough because sometimes they're
more aggressive.
You know players out there,yeah, but the challenge is to
(24:32):
get a relationship with aninvestor and you want them to be
a repeat investor and so ifyou've been able to give them
the distributions you said youwere going to give them the
distributions, you said you weregoing to give them Distribution
.
Incidentally, distributionsmost investors are as much
(24:57):
interested in the distributionas they are the overall return.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
They want something you know every year, and if
you've been able to perform itand do what you said you were
going to do, they are morelikely to be up for return
investment.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
It probably has evolved to youknow, like the investor
expectations have grown and,like you said, it's higher
returns.
But at the same token, you wantto be conservative in what
you're projecting out and don'twant to over project out,
because then you don't hit yourdistributions and you don't earn
their trust, where, yeah, Icould show you this number on
(25:32):
paper, but that's not what Ifeel strong about.
And yeah, maybe we did hit thatfrom 2005 to 2019, but you know
, to be able to say we're goingto do that again now.
It's it's hard and I think someof those investors got you know
, they got you know we'rehitting home runs and it's hard
to say you're going to keephitting home runs.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Well, and the related point is there are it's tough
to find opportunities to buyexisting commercial property
that's leased right now.
To buy existing commercialproperty that's leased right now
because, particularly if it hasa loan that preceded 2020 at
(26:19):
one of those three-and-a-halfjobs and we got one of those, so
we like that but the fact isthe owners are living in denial
that in today's world, if theyhad to sell, their property is
worth less than it was back then.
(26:39):
Yeah, as loans mature and asthey have cash requirements, et
cetera, they become morerealistic.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
That's part of the cycle I've been through a bunch
of yeah, that's a great pointbecause we I mean I think most
people, even owners ofcommercial property would pay so
much attention to theresidential market and that
maybe affects kind of the waythat they think about their
commercial property and the factthat, you know, even as rates
continue to climb, folks stillneed to buy and sell and maybe
(27:15):
there's a lot of people moveinto the area and so there's
still demand and so you seeprices rising.
But for commercial, you know, Isaw that especially in you know
23, I guess as rates started toclimb, you know, there was a
commercial property that I wasafter and the owner essentially,
you know, and I showed it tohim too just as interest rates
(27:36):
climbed so fast, he probablylost half a million to a million
dollars in equity, you know,without anything changing for
him, you know.
And so, yeah, I think that'swise, you mentioned in that,
because a lot of people, that'sthe hard part of navigating it
today.
You guys are in very similarfields where you have investors
and your GPs and you knowdifferent.
(27:59):
You know obviously differentspace.
He's in the commercialmultifamily, you're more in the
commercial space, like that, butI think that's just interesting
to note.
Do you have a thought on that?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, I did.
I did, and I think you'resaying it's harder to find deals
.
Has that been part of yourevolution to look outside of
Northwest Arkansas?
You're talking about deals inSouth Carolina and some of these
other projects.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
And actually I have relocated to South Carolina.
I guess my kids grew up overthere while I was with Cooper.
Oh yeah, I've got fivegrandchildren over there.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
That makes sense.
We've relocated.
My son is actually with ourcompany, but he's an attorney
there as well, and but you knowwe're looking there and it's
tough there too.
Let me remind y'all you youngguys, rates are not high.
(28:54):
We got used to we had 12 years,or 11 or 12 years of zero
interest, and that's not norm.
You see the gray hair or blindhair?
I wish you were gray.
I once had a 16 and a quarterpercent home mortgage in 1980.
(29:23):
So rights are not high rightnow, but the world has not
adjusted to these rights yet.
Yeah, given time it will.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, agreed, I think it's even starting to happen
too.
I think commercial owners arecoming back to earth and people
even in the residential space.
They have to move becausefamily's growing or whatever,
and so, you know, instead ofwaiting on rates to come back
down to four or five, they'rerealizing, like you know, we
(29:57):
need to move, and so we do it.
I think that's a reallyinteresting piece.
Were you going to say something?
Yeah, I was going to say so.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Is that a saying?
You know, if you had a crystalball, you're saying that rates
aren't here to stay.
Rates are.
If you had a crystal ball,you're saying that rates aren't
here to stay.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
You're probably looking at increased rates.
I'm not going to try to predictentropy, I'll be wrong.
But I will say that I'm notscared of the rates now, once
we're in adjustment.
Yeah, and I've worked inenvironments where they were
(30:32):
higher than they are now andthings still work.
Now the anomaly was the 1980deal, that that's a little bit
out of whack, but fortunately Isold that place and got it.
But, yeah, I'm a long-term veerand and all of my investments,
(30:59):
so I'm not betting against theUSA, in spite of all the mess
that's going on right now.
This too shall pass.
It may take longer than I wish,but don't bet against the USA
and we will have opportunitiesalong the way, you just have to
(31:20):
take advantage.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Yeah, I think that's so important to kind of keep the
view, especially as real estateinvestors, keeping the view of
long-term.
I think it's so easy for ourgenerations to want to invest
into things that can go higherquickly, and LPs are probably
thinking the same thing.
They're looking for returnsthat are high and they're soon,
(31:44):
and in real estate that's notthe reality.
And if you're playing the gameto be in it long-term, I think
that's where you're really goingto see the biggest wins in
compounding, obviously.
But I want to go to obviouslyyou mentioned a lot of these
different markets that you guysare in and stuff like that.
What are some things that youguys look at when it comes to
the market?
(32:04):
What are you assessing, youknow, is it?
You know, population increase,is it?
You know this and that I'd loveto just hear, just high level,
what you guys are looking at.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Obviously, growth is important.
But you look at the other.
Is there an industrial base?
If there's a university orcollege there, that's really
good.
Yeah, and if there's auniversity or college there,
that's really good.
In fact, there's one banker'scomment that he'd never made a
bad loan in a university town,which you can still do that.
(32:41):
But that's the point is thatyou look at those things.
We've looked in Charlcharleston, south carolina my
daughter actually lives therebut and charleston has all the
food groups except it's not thecenter of government.
Um, it's got two universitythree, actually three
(33:05):
universities, counting the medschool.
It's got tremendous history,it's got tremendous retirement
and tremendous visitation andit's got the port.
Charleston is the deepest porton the East Coast and so you've
(33:29):
got all of that activity goingon.
So why would you not look atthat as a potential investment
place?
And I've had a place, one of mypartnerships, we own the place
in Charleston, so I'm familiarwith it more than just casually
(33:49):
through that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, it's funny you say that it's because NWA checks
all those boxes University,good, industrial, diverse space,
not just the Waltons so itchecks those boxes.
But sometimes if you're in aspecific niche, you do have to
look at these other marketsbecause there's only so many
strip malls or retail centersyou can call on.
In Northwest Arkansas.
In my case, there was only somany apartment complexes that
(34:11):
weren't owned by Lindsay inNorthwest Arkansas.
How do you see regarding markettrends, interest rates?
No one has a crystal ball.
But what do you see?
Northwest Arkansas, it feelslike we're in an insulated
bubble.
You've been here since 1980.
I've been here for just justover 10 years.
(34:32):
When I first got here, peoplewere like, hey, you should have
seen the last 10 years, and thenI saw these past 10 years.
It's like we're in this bubble.
Do you see some sort ofcorrection in Northwest Arkansas
?
Is that something that you'retracking?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
The growth pattern.
The growth for NorthwestArkansas is gonna continue to be
what it is for a long timeLonger than I'll be around for
and so that's gonna continue Nowand we do have the diversity
(35:09):
that you talked about.
And we do have the diversitythat you talked about and you
know JB Hunt, tyson, walmart andall of the tributaries of those
and New Starts now and theinvolvement of the university in
some things.
All of that is good.
(35:35):
And if you, if I did a studyseveral years ago and we are
relative to Little Rock, whichis the center of government we
had like 60%, 40% fewer.
We had 60% of the attorneys percapita, because we're still
(35:55):
playing catch-up, you know.
So if and yes, if you scalethat back, because you know 10%
have to deal with the governmentand stuff, still we're behind.
If we stopped today, there'dstill be moving in from
attorneys, accountants andothers that are still catching
(36:16):
up.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Because the thing that everybody knows about but
we don't have as much action onright now is infrastructure.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Totally.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
And that's roads, water, sewer Roads in particular
.
Have y'all noticed how much ohyeah, push challenging it is?
Yeah, and we needed the WesternBypass 10 years ago.
I don't know if it's ever gonnahappen.
It's funny I've joked and said,hey, jim, it only costs $3
(36:53):
million, just build it, youwon't miss it.
But that is a problem thatneeds to be addressed.
And because it's gotgovernmental involvement and the
Rogers, bentonville, springdaleand Fayetteville have learned
(37:16):
better to get along with eachother.
But there's still some Fridaynight football going on For sure
.
Yeah, and so and we've got tostart acting more like a single
suburban entity than yeah, thanthe individuals.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
That makes sense, because I mean when, when we, we
talk about and we listen toeverything that's happened,
happens on the rvs, skylinereports and, and everything
they're trying to do to keep thequality of life.
They talk a lot about thequality of life and and, uh,
that goes into it, right, theinfrastructure, you know how?
About how long you have to waitin traffic?
Do people want to live inFayetteville if they work at
(37:53):
Walmart and continue to inFayetteville, continue to thrive
if the traffic is so badgetting north?
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
I mean and go ahead.
It's a.
The two counties are a need tobe taken as a whole, but there
is no downtown northwestArkansas.
There's not going to be.
We're going to be right.
We're going to be developmentsand activities off of the
(38:25):
interstate and that's just theway it is.
And we're not a.
We don't have and never willhave mass transit in the sense
of a centralized urban city.
Yeah, it's just not going tohappen.
Yeah, we can get around alittle bit, but nobody is going
(38:46):
to take a.
You know they were talkingabout putting a train, you know,
from Fayetteville toBentonville.
Yeah, yeah, I said yeah, it'sgoing to stop at every.
You know that's not happening.
Yeah, people are not going todo that Right, we're not trained
in it.
No, no, and so we've got tomake the cars work.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, and then you even mentioned, like you know,
sewer and the other consequencesof huge growth.
Like you're seeing storiescoming out now about Centerton
no more development happening,right, that could be a couple of
years before they can fix ittoo, and so how's that going to
affect the rest of the area?
And you, I mean you, maycontinue to see dominoes of no
(39:35):
more new development in certainareas because they can't handle
the growth, and so I think it'san interesting point, uh, that
that you mentioned there.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
For sure, I don't even see that about Sunderton
they have, they have, they'relike at capacity, pretty much
they're at capacity.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
No new development happening.
From what I understand, itcould take a couple years to fix
too.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I have some investment property in Centerton
so that's maybe not being a badthing for my current investment
.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Right, definitely 100%, and I think everything
else will continue to beaffected around it too.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
We talked a lot about a uniqueness about Northwest
Arkansas, like how there'd neverbe.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
There'd never be a downtownNorthwest Arkansas.
We talk about all these new.
Now there's a downtown.
Johnson Springdale has evolveda lot the past five years.
Really their downtown isbecoming cool, each of these
(40:29):
little.
It's not just Fayetteville andBentonville, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Runnerton wants a downtown, I hear yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
They got some other fish to fry before that, but it
seems these other areas want andthere isn't going to be.
You have the greenway, you cantake a bike everywhere you know,
in 71, but it's's gonna beinteresting.
The infrastructure that's alwayslike the, it's not.
Can we keep up with thepopulation?
These big drivers are going tokeep people coming in, and then
(40:57):
you have the other smallcompanies that stem off from the
big three.
So I think that's it's.
It's we ask other you know,guests that are very involved in
development in the area andthat it seems like
infrastructure is kind of thefirst thought there that we need
to be ahead of.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
To your point, the smaller companies that are
starting and growing.
That's what really is going tobe as much of a driver as the
big guys, the big three, be asmuch of a driver as the big guys
, the big three, and really it'sthe I call it the big five.
(41:35):
It's Walmart, jbi, tysonUniversity and the medical
community.
Yeah, and those are the bigfive.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
But aside from the big five, birthed by the big
five, are so many opportunitiesthat are supported by those
things.
Yeah, absolutely that are gonnabe the drivers.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I saw.
It was really interesting tohear Northwest Arkansas was like
a top 15 tech area.
You know.
Obviously you have SiliconValley, it was just a you know
number one.
But just to.
You have these tech companieswas just a you know number one,
but just to.
You have these tech companiesthat are servicing the vendors
that are going into walmart orservicing these other companies
it's cool.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
It's cool to see, but do what I want to transition a
little bit.
Uh, I think a lot of ourlisteners love to hear about
deals specifically and and uh,what those have looked like over
the years for you.
And there's hundreds ofstrategies out there small
multifamily, large multifamilyfor what Brian does?
Commercial space what is, Iguess, give me an idea of why
(42:40):
someone would choose looking atstrip centers and these
mixed-use spaces like you guysdo.
Why is that a strategy you guyslike over maybe other
strategies?
Speaker 4 (42:51):
out there.
Well, of course we're broaderinto office and all those things
, but you know it comes down tolocation, location, location.
Three most important things inreal estate, not necessarily in
that order.
Three most important things inreal estate, not necessarily in
(43:11):
that order.
It comes down to location andunderstanding the position that
particular property has withrespect to what's around it.
It I'll use Village on theCreeks as an example is we are a
(43:42):
B plus property in the way wescale that, because our rents
are much lower than the newbuildings.
New buildings you're pushing 40bucks a square foot for office
buildings, we're at 25.
So now, if you want a tallbuilding, we're not a candidate.
If you don't need a tallbuilding or, you like, being
(44:03):
able to drive up, we've got morethings than anybody else in
that game because we've got forgoodness sakes, we've got four
restaurants, we've got all thesedifferent services, we've got a
lake, we've got the trail goesright through us, we've got
(44:28):
amenities that make usattractive.
And so you know the locationand the competitive.
Is it competitive with othersin its?
You know, in its area?
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Yeah, I think that's, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Yeah, it's super important.
Yeah, location it's like you.
Can I always compare it to liketaking a plane off against the
wind or with the wind.
Like you know, if you're withthe wind, it's a lot easier with
a good location.
And I think that's interestingabout the competitive like can
you be competitive to the peoplearound you?
And I think that's interestingabout the competitive like can
you be competitive to the peoplearound you and some people.
I think it's tough finding thatspot too, whether you're buying
(45:10):
.
If you're buying the most pre,it might be nice to buy the most
premium product in the area.
You're the prettiest, you'rethe, you got all the bells and
whistles.
But at the same time, who'syour competition Right?
You know, sometimes it's notgood to be at the very top of
the market too.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
Right, you know, sometimes it's not good to be at
the very top of you know wherepeople gather.
I think is you know it.
It's hard to see a scenariowhere where a property, like
Village on the Creech, you knowit goes down in value because
it's it's irreplaceable realestate, right?
I mean it's right, the primemiddle of town, right off of
I-49, um, so it makes sense.
(46:07):
I think that's an interestingthing for investors to think
about.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yeah, Congrats on that spot.
That's interesting how youbought it, sold it and then you
came back.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, dive into that a little bit.
So how did the acquisition ofVillage on the Creech first
happen, and then kind of whatthat looked like.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
Well, the the acquisition, originally it was.
It was defaulting on loans.
This OA or not, then?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Arvest owned it.
Things can default in northwestArkansas.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
I didn't know that I've s-owned it, and so we were.
We said, hey, this locationlooks pretty good.
So I put together a group andwe which included Ms Hunt, was
one of our the single largestinvestor and actually I had met
(47:08):
her and had a relationshipbecause I was working when
Swahart and Miss Hunt weregetting sideways on a bunch of
(47:31):
commercial properties and sothat's how we had met.
So we were able and I think wewere aided by the fact that some
folks one from Little Rock andone from somewhere else had made
an egregiously low offer whichmade our offer look better, and
(47:57):
they took it and we were able toget it financed and were able
to run with it, and we're ableto run with it Subsequently.
We contributed it, with theapproval of all of our partners,
to one of the Keprock groups,keprock II, and at the time we
(48:23):
actually doubled our equity.
When we did that, caprock ownedit for a while and they had a
suitor come by and make an offeron it and they accepted the
(48:45):
offer and then the guy canceledand so I got with my partners
and I said, hey, I'll get agroup and match that offer if
y'all are agreeable.
Because of the conflict here,they said yeah, if you match
that, we're good.
So we did, and so we ended upowning it again.
It's a different partnership.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
That's amazing.
Did it feel like when youbought it the first time around?
Did you feel like you weregetting it at a steep discount?
I was afraid.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
Really, I was afraid for a while I'd paid too much.
Yeah, it was about 68% occupiedat the time and we were able to
get it leased up pretty quicklyand that eased my pain a little
bit.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Absolutely.
I love that.
I'd love to.
We've got about 10 minutes left.
I want to.
I want to dig into a couplemore deals that that you're,
you're proud of, over your, yourtenure of doing this, tell me,
tell me maybe your favorite dealand you know how, how that came
about, what it looked like,maybe how you acquired it and,
uh, you know, maybe any kind offinancing too.
Would love to just get a storyon that you know.
Speaker 4 (49:52):
I'll give you one, that, uh, when I was with cooper
we bought a uh, an officebuilding in east memphis.
Uh, memphis, in downtownMemphis, is not a place you
necessarily want to go, but EastMemphis was okay and we bought
(50:14):
it and we're doing very wellwith it and along comes the.
This was in about 2000-ish, Ican't remember, maybe a little
north of that.
And in the Middle East there'sa bunch of disruption and that's
(50:40):
when somebody was lobbing scudsinto Israel.
Somebody was lobbing scuds intoIsrael and there was this group
of Israeli money that wanted toget out of Israel and get it
invested.
And they paid us a premium.
We made about and we'd owned itfor about five years and we
(51:06):
sold it for we bought it for $38million, sold it for $65
million, Wow, and subsequentlythey sold it for $50 million.
Yeah, so you know we.
What years was this?
Also, this was in 2000, 2006.
(51:27):
Okay, yeah, 2005, somewhere inthat early 2000 period, and that
was not something we sought,but it came to our door.
Sometimes you don't have to golooking, you just have to open
the door.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
You've had a lot of great timing on some of these
deals.
Would you contribute that?
You know, knowing your numbers,you know luck.
God's blessing.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
I tell you, you know, I do believe in God, but he's
not out there helping me.
He's given me, you, given methe ability to discern, but
timing is always some luckinvolved, because you cannot
(52:19):
predict the cycles, which meansyou always want to have the
ability to endure the cycle.
That's what.
If you are not capitalized toweather a cycle, then you can
really get damaged, yeah, andyou don't like the cycle.
But if you get through it youcan avoid those kind of
(52:40):
cataclysmic.
Yeah yeah, um, so um, I thinkthere there is a little bit of
science to it.
Maybe you know experience andexperience comes remember.
(53:01):
Uh, I've um and made this inlike a joke, but it's not really
.
I said I've lived long enoughthat I've made all the mistakes
once.
I just try not to make themtwice.
You know the same kind ofmistake, yeah, and you learn
from those.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
So there is an experience factor that factors
in over over a lifetime did youfeel like when, uh, with your
experience of your first job outof college and things like that
, that gave you the confidenceto kind of start eventually
putting these investment groupstogether and things like that?
Speaker 4 (53:34):
uh, I had, uh, I would say, yeah, that you know
the, particularly the one insouth florida.
You know which were.
I can tell you some storiesabout that.
It was interesting and so, yeah, the longer that you have, and
(53:57):
probably as much as I've moved,the variety of experiences has
done me a good service.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
Yeah, absolutely, having those experiences to help
you figure out has done me agood service.
Yeah, absolutely, having thoseexperiences to help you figure
out what you need to weather thestorm and then, if you can
weather the storm, you can beprepared for good timing too I
think is a lot of value,absolutely.
Speaker 4 (54:18):
I just heard I alluded to this earlier, but one
of the key mistakes that someinvestors make in commercial
properties is not being properlycapitalized and having some
downturn occur and they can'tweather it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
Speaking on that, give us your worst deal that you
ever did, or you know and whatthat looked like.
You may not even have one ofthese, do you I?
Speaker 4 (54:47):
probably do.
I think probably the worst oneis we bought a property in
Kansas City which our partner'sstill on and we bought it from
the bank and I did not read andunderstand the ramifications of
(55:15):
the lease well enough and it wasa company the large, it was
multi-tenant but the largesttenant had some lease elements
that made it very awkward andwe're going to end up we still
own it but we're going to end upprobably losing money.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
Oh really, yeah, Just buying it too high to where
this lease that was in place wastoo the lease.
Speaker 4 (55:40):
it was a lease problem, Mm-hmm, and as it
turned out that that particularmarket this is in Kansas yeah,
it's not as dynamic as we hadanticipated.
Yeah, I want to.
I just flip.
There is one property that thethe best case, that I gave you a
(56:03):
good case, but here's reallythe best case.
This is in Columbia, southCarolina, and it was owned by a
real estate investment trust andthey had been told that they
needed to divest of their SouthCarolina property, that they
(56:26):
needed to divest of their SouthCarolina property.
It was publicly traded by somedude in New York and they had to
get it done before the end ofthe first quarter and we had
cash and we were equipped to dothat.
And we were equipped to do thatand we bought a nine-story
(56:58):
building for like $30 a squarefoot.
And my partner said well,dewitt, don't you want to
analyze this?
I said no, I just want to buyit.
And we ended up making afortune.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
Yes, how long?
Speaker 4 (57:10):
was that hold?
We held it, I think, about sixyears.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Six years, okay, and what does financing typically
look like on a size buildinglike that?
I mean just generally.
Speaker 4 (57:25):
Well, it depends on what cycle you're in and it
depends on where you go.
You can always get longer-termloans in the insurance carrier,
and they've got some interestingthings that they do that make
it fun.
Mm-hmm, banks generally willnot go that long, yeah, and you
(57:52):
can get fixed rates for thatlong in the insurance world
because their spread is againsta 10-year treasury.
Yeah, they're looking longBanks it's shorter, and so you
can get a five or sometimes youcan get a seven year fix, but
(58:13):
five is the standard, okay, butthe bank rates were so much
better during the teams, youknow, because the short-term
rates were zero.
The 10-year rate was stillsomething.
(58:36):
Some of the spreads were a lotbetter and banks gave better
loans, gotcha, and you know,then they don't.
They've moved back from that alittle bit now.
And they became stuff Right.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
yeah, I love this part of capitalizing.
I mean, I think it's abouthaving the right reserves and
putting the right debt on.
It is a huge piece too.
Speaker 4 (58:59):
Yeah, almost as important as the deal, sometimes
having the right debt andremember that appropriate amount
of debt is attractive.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
I think it depends on the cycle, the denominator,
effect, meaning you have lessequity.
Speaker 4 (59:15):
So your returns, if the cost of the debt is not
excessive, you have positiveleverage.
But that can turn on you if therates go up or if you have too
much debt.
No, and there are a lot ofpeople that play with a lot more
debt than I'm willing to play.
Yeah, I've got a conservativeapproach there absolutely is
(59:40):
there a house paid off or no?
well it would be, except uh, Ihad a guy come by with uh, I'd
already bought it with uh twoand a quarter percent of money.
Yes, I know yeah I said, uh, 15or 15 year mortgage.
And I said, okay, I gottafigure I can make a spray a
(01:00:03):
little night yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
I love that we're just as we wrap up, do it, I it.
I want to just hit on thisquestion before we go what
advice would you have for youngfolks looking to get into the
space that you're in, looking atlarger commercial deals that
maybe they're not these smallermom-and-pop deals but can get
(01:00:27):
into this prime real estate?
So what advice would you havesomebody kind of getting started
and looking to make a movethere?
Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
I would tell them A, if you are willing to take the
time and train up a little bitand don't think you're going to
be the boss the first day or thesecond year or the third year
and I think it would beattractive to go with a larger
(01:00:56):
company you know and getexperience before you launch out
Yep, which means you have tohave some patience and you have
to believe that there's gold atthe end of that rainbow and
opportunities will presentthemselves later on.
Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
I love it.
Yeah, that's so good.
I think we always talk about it, but being able to see
long-term with real estate andthen just kind of focus on the
day to day, I think isunbelievably important.
But we've loved kind of gettingto dive into your experience
and you've got so much of it inso many different areas and
(01:01:37):
hearing about deals you've doneand just kind of the approach
that you take, and so we'resuper thankful to have you on.
Brian, do you have anythingelse?
Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, I appreciate it .
That was a great list.
I mean, there's a lot ofdifferent parts of this podcast
you could rewind and listen to acouple of times.
So, yeah, we definitelyappreciate the value you've
given us today.
Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Well, thank, you all for the opportunity.
It's been nice, yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Absolutely Well.
We appreciate you and we'relooking forward to talking to
you soon.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Again, thank you guys for tuning in.
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Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Special thanks to one of our sponsors who I've worked
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Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
If you enjoyed the show, make sure to give us a
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Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Don't forget to connect with us on Instagram,
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Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
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Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Welcome to Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast, your
go-to source for real estateinvesting in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
With your seasoned investor just starting out.
We bring you expert insights,market trends and practical
strategies to help you buildwealth through real estate.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
From buying and selling to property management
and long-term investmentplanning.
We cover it all so you can makesmart, informed decisions in
this fast-growing market.
Let's dive in.
Welcome back to another episodeof NWA Investing, where we dive
into the minds of industryleaders shaping the real estate
landscape here in NorthwestArkansas.
We've got Mr Dewitt Smith herewith us.
(00:43):
He's been in real estate forover five decades right, that
would be true and that's awesome.
And so we're pumped to get tojust chat through your story and
deals you've done and what yourbusinesses look like.
And I've got Brian Wagers withme, of course, and Zach
Stanley's out for a little bit,but we're kind of holding it
(01:04):
down for a little bit.
So, mr Dewitt, thanks forcoming with us.
Appreciate it.
We're happy to have you and wevalue your time a lot.
So we're appreciative thatyou'd come on and chat with us.
So we'd love to.
Obviously there's a lot tounpack here with a lot of what
you've done in the commercialspace deals and management and
things like that.
(01:24):
But give us just a 30,000-footview of your story, kind of
where you're from, how you gotstarted, what you've done, stuff
like that Good.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Well, I'm originally from Forest City, arkansas, over
in the Delta, and I went toschool at the University of
Arkansas.
I was fortunate to back in theday to have an athletic
scholarship.
We went and played footballthere in the 60s that's awesome
(01:58):
and was in engineering school.
I was good in math and didn'tknow where I was going, so went
to engineering school, graduatedin civil engineering and uh
went to work uh, with my cousinin uh cincinnati for a year and
he was developing someapartments and I was doing some
(02:20):
related things and had anopportunity to go back to
graduate school, get an MBA, anddid that.
It took two years and I went towork in South Florida for Arvada
Corporation and that was ArthurVining Davis was this wealthy
(02:45):
dude that bought up a bunch ofland down there.
He owned like 100,000 acres inSouth Florida, oh, wow.
And he also owned the BocaRaton Hotel and Club and so I
worked with them for about fiveyears and then came back to
South Florida.
Was it was neat the first yearwhen, you know, in the
(03:09):
wintertime you didn't have toput on a jacket, yeah, but after
you got, you know, if you grewup in a temperate climate, you
kind of you know Summers aretough up there, yeah.
So came back and went to workwith uh fairfield communities
and uh was, uh was at uhfairfield bay, arkansas, for a
(03:35):
couple of years and then wentover to uh north carolina.
They had a, they had a nearcashiers North Carolina, not
cashiers at back yes, yes,cashiers North Carolina,
fairfield, sapphire Valley, theycall it and work there.
Came back to Arkansas and wentto work with Cooper communities
(04:01):
at communities that built inBella Vista, of course, Yep.
And I was with them actually for22 years Went to South Carolina
and headed up a developmentthere called Fairfield I'm sorry
, called Lord, forget the nameof the place now, but anyway I
(04:28):
was there for 10 years.
Savannah Lakes Village was thename of that.
Yes sir, and it was on theSavannah, a lake on the Savannah
.
River there Boom, and so I wasthere for about 10 years and
came back with Cooper and thenbegan running there.
(04:50):
That was a Savannah LakesVillage was a Bella Vista-like
retirement development.
Yeah, came back and headed upthere real estate, commercial
real estate, real estate,commercial real estate.
Starting that they had someexcess cash and they invested a
(05:11):
lot of it in commercial realestate and we owned properties
across the southeast and managedthose properties and I left
them and went started on.
Or Devereaux was kind ofhanging around as an investment
arm and I activated it and weended up buying.
(05:36):
I and some partners I was ageneral partner bought Village
on the Creeks in Rogers.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Pretty close to here in Pinnacle area, right Yep.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
And I've been operating with some form of that
with some Devereaux hasinvested with partners in
several other investments.
We were part of a group inLittle Rock called Caprock Okay
(06:15):
and I was one of the generalpartners there.
There were two Caprock funds,each of which had about $100
million in equity Cool and thosefunds are now one of them is
ended, the other is got kind oftransitioned and got four
buildings left that were sold toa different Gotcha.
(06:38):
But then I've been working withpartners here in northwest
Arkansas and you may know ConnorEldridge and Steve Brooks
Eldridge and Brooks, theirpartners and then Tom Gordon,
(07:00):
who actually is married to aDevereux.
That's awesome.
Tom Gordon is president of SlimChickens.
Oh, yeah, he and Greg Smart havebeen with us and we've invested
in several things here inNorthwest Arkansas Amazing
Including we bought Village onthe Creek's back from.
That's amazing.
(07:20):
I've owned it twice.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, that's probably some of the most diverse
experience we've had on thepodcast.
Just getting into it, that'samazing.
So I've owned it twice.
Yeah, that's probably some ofthe most diverse experience
we've had on the podcast.
Just getting into it, that'sawesome.
So I'd love to dive in a littlebit to what you kind of just
mentioned there.
So you, university of Arkansas,right originally, right, right
In the 60s.
That's a good time to playfootball for the Hogs right, we
had a run there yeah, that'sawesome.
(07:45):
The hogs right, we had a runthere.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Come some great teammates, uh,that are well known and it's uh
that's cool to see that you'repart of that you may actually
actually uh, pat morrison, whowas an all southwest, uh
conference.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Uh, tight end and and uh, chuck dikus, who was all
american, then playton.
The pros are.
They have the real estate.
They both still have theirlicenses and work with me.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, that's cool.
We were just talking about thaton the last podcast, like
whether to go to the debate onsending your kids to college
nowadays or not.
So we're having a Harvard MBAgrad on our next episode.
We should ask him his thoughtson that.
But, like, you talk about howyou're doing deals with people
that you went to college withand you still have a big smile
on your face talking about guysyou're still doing business with
(08:30):
in school.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I'm a big advocate of the advanced degrees you know,
of getting a college degree andeven beyond that if it suits,
yeah, and it's as much theexperience as it is what you
learn in the classroom,absolutely, and so I think folks
(08:54):
that miss that miss out on them.
And college is not foreverybody and experience can be
gained in other fashion.
I think we all do can be gainedin other fashion, but I
certainly, if you've got thecapability, I would recommend to
anybody that they find a way togo.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You mentioned to it soundedlike your first, maybe your
first job out of college.
You went up to Cincinnati,right, and you started working
on the Swahili Born and raised.
You went up to Cincinnati,right, you started working on
the—.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
That's where I was born and raised Cincinnati.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah yeah right there .
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Actually, we were in Fairfield, fairfield, yeah, yeah
.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So it sounds like fresh out of college.
Your first opportunity was in areal estate-related field.
Did your family have any realestate experience prior?
I mean, were you thinking aboutreal estate experience prior?
I mean, were you thinking aboutreal estate before you even
decided on this job?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
I just wandered through, I didn't know where I
was going and my cousin Hedsonhe actually had also been to
Harvard and gotten an MBA and hewas developing an apartment
project and he had a bunch ofpartners.
I was more on the constructionside there.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Okay, yeah, and then, kind of sometime in that
experience you mentioned, youcame back here to work with
Cooper, who's kind of been theoriginators of everything that's
happened in Bella Vista andeverything.
What did that role look like,just curious.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Well, I hired on with them actually to go start
Savannah Lakes Village the onein South Carolina, gotcha and so
I was only here for about sixmonths before they completed
that deal.
It was interesting it was forthe first time it was a joint
(10:52):
venture with the state of SouthCarolina and they actually
funded the infrastructure.
At that point they had newregulations that required that
in order to sell a lot, you hadto have it had to be paved and
(11:12):
services within a year, and soobviously belvista didn't do
that, didn't have that, and sothat was the the reason for and
the state was interested becausethe particular county where
this was was about to gobankrupt and it actually did
(11:33):
stimulate that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I love that, yeah.
So then I guess, kind ofleading up into where we are now
, when did you start DevroManagement Company?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
It's been around since about 84.
Okay, but I really activated itin around 2000.
I mean in the form that it'snow yeah In 2010.
Okay, 2010.
Bob Village on the Creeks.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Okay, got you.
So that's Devereux ManagementCompany.
Is now how many employees?
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, actually we've only got six full-time employees
.
Okay, six full-time employees.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
And then so, what all is it?
Property management, I assume,maybe real estate.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Property management and a lot of property management
can be outsourced, contracted,but you have to have some good
leadership, absolutely yeah.
So it's property management andinvestment in the form of
limited partnerships, investingand purchasing properties with
(12:44):
commercial properties.
This has been our game, withother capital coming from some
limited partners.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
And then we have a brokerage arm that has been
solely commercial, but we're nowBo Morris and Pat's son has
come on with us and we'reexpanding into some residential
work as well.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
That's awesome.
So does that includedevelopment, or is it
multifamily specific or is thereany?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
We can do development .
But two questions there yeah,we can do development and we'll
do bail-to-suits.
We have not done any recently.
We've looked at just purchasingexisting properties and the
other part of that was Justmultifamily.
(13:43):
Yeah, just multifamily.
Yeah, a joke around the realestate world is multifamily.
Residential is exactly likecommercial, only different, and
when I was with Cooper, we ownedapartments in Memphis and in
(14:04):
Atlanta and so I totaled about1,800 units.
So I have some experience overthere.
But it takes a differentmanagement game and we are not
currently organized to do that.
We're commercial.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yes, absolutely, I think a lot of uh.
It's interesting we've had someother property managers, uh,
come in and and uh and sit withus and chat and most of them are
specifically in themulti-family smaller, larger, uh
property management game, andso I'd love to dive in a little
bit more on on what thatmanagement looks like and
(14:42):
everything as we get going alittle bit.
But tell me so, devereux, is itstrictly northwest Arkansas,
what you all have, or is itspread out?
You mentioned the south.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
I still have an ownership interest in some
properties in South Carolina andactually Omaha and Kansas City.
Okay, and we're looking to.
I'm actually part of what Iwork today is making an offer on
(15:21):
a property in Greenville, SouthCarolina.
That's awesome.
Ironically, Social SecurityAdministration, which has been
Doge-approved.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah, pass that test Love it.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
And so now we're just going to make an offer and
whoever owns it may not like,may like somebody else better.
Yeah, it's.
It's always challenging to beable to get enough return to
attract the investors.
(15:57):
Right, yeah, get the deal, youknow.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Right, so that's a single tenant?
Is that it's a single tenant?
Is?
Speaker 4 (16:03):
that we, we prefer multi-tenant.
But in this case it's got afive-year guaranteed.
And then anything with the GSA,with the Government Services
Administration.
They'll have some ounce if itdoesn't get funded and blah,
(16:27):
blah, blah and they have thoseouts.
In the second it's a 10-yearlease but saying in five years
has those outs?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, do you go into that, like some of our investors
, like diving into deals andthat deal specifically would you
hold it for five years?
Would you hold it for 10 years?
Would you hold it forever?
How do you look at that deal?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
In that one.
We always look at a 10-year10-year and can't hold longer,
although most investors want toturn at some point the passive
investors.
But so we always go where weplan for 10.
We're opportunistic within thatand in this case we kind of if
(17:21):
we get the deal we would plan on, we plan on them staying.
They've been there for a longtime and we think they would
stay and wouldn't even gosomewhere unless Social Security
goes away.
I don't care what they say.
It's not so that when you haveless than five years left on a
(17:50):
single tenant, the market tendsto punish you a bit for the term
of the lease.
So if we were going to try tosell it, if we weren't going to
go to the 10, you know it's in agreat location, so if they left
(18:11):
we'd have a good opportunity.
But if we were going to try tosell it with them in place, we'd
try to do it with someturnaround.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, so I'd love to dive intosomething that you mentioned
there.
Uh, kind of what, maybe whatyour, your buy boxes look like
over the years?
You guys started in in theeighties, um, maybe starting to
purchase property and stuff likethat, but what, what did it
look like when you were firststarting?
What kind of property were youlooking for then?
(18:42):
And and, uh, and how has thatkind of changed over the years?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Well, we inherited some.
Cooper had already bought someapartments, so I inherited that
back at that period.
But we were always focused oncommercial Office, which has
(19:10):
taken lumps.
Now we see it recover.
In northwest Arkansas there's4% vacancy yeah, crazy, and we
see it beginning.
To those who preach the deathof office because people can
work from home, I just another Ican't remember which company
today announced that everybody'scoming back to the office
(19:32):
because you get more done withthe interaction.
Imagine that.
Imagine that.
So, but we had focused more onoffice.
We had done.
Major Village on the Creeks isprimarily office, but it's mixed
use.
It has other retail in thereand some retail in there and
(19:55):
some studios.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
There's a restaurant.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
We've got several restaurants, so it's called
mixed use, but so we've donethat.
I'll kind of frame.
There are two kinds of retailopportunities generally and
there's some blends, but big boxcentered, and that has the
(20:24):
danger that we've all beenlooking at with big boxes going
bankrupt.
And big boxes also have theirlease and you're working for
them rather than them leasingfrom you, so to speak.
The other is mom and pops, andwith mom and pops you kind of
(20:46):
have to, and we do well withI've done well in that arena
because I think, because Iunderstand that it's I don't
care how long you write thelease, it's month to month, mom
and pop.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
But there's some great tenants and we were
fortunate we retained all butone of our of our uh small
tenants there in village on thecreek during the uh pandemic and
when it was really you know,because we stepped forward and
(21:27):
gave them some pre-rent and saidwe'll work with you if you'll
lengthen your lease.
And we worked that out and theycame back and we only lost one.
Yeah, and so you know, believeit or not, when something is
(21:48):
good for both parties, it'sgenerally better.
Yeah, most of most not.
A lot of the real estate worldtreats it that way.
You know you want to dominateeither as a landlord or you want
to dominate like the big boxesas a tenant, but it really, if
(22:09):
it works for both, it's better.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, I think that's the thing that people don't talk
about super often is, you know,when we're us as investors.
You know, oftentimes people canjust look at a spreadsheet and,
you know, make decisions andthink that everything just runs
off of this pro forma orwhatever.
But at the end of the day it'sstill a people business and
there's things that can happenthat we don't plan for.
(22:34):
You're out of pro forma for andbeing able to work around and
be nimble and things like that.
I think that's really importantto note for investors that are
kind of thinking about thisspace that you're in.
I think that's good.
So it sounds like a lot ofretail, some big box and some
(22:54):
you know pretty much study runfrom big box.
Yeah.
So strip centers kind of, ifyou will, stuff like that sounds
like that's the bread andbutter.
Um, I love that.
What, what about?
I'm just curious too.
On, you know, obviously youguys have been at it for, let's
see, 20, 40 years, I guess, ormore, since Dev Rose, since Dev
(23:17):
Rose has been around, so what Imean?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
obviously you've seen , you know, so many different
real estate cycles over theyears and so I'm curious you
know how has, when you haveinvestors involved, how has the
way that you look at dealschanged or return expectations
(23:41):
changed?
I guess, generally speaking,passive investors are God bless
them but they're excessivelygreedy and they expect returns
that are unachievable.
And we try to be realistic andnot show somebody returns that
(24:06):
we know we're not going toachieve and then 10 years later
we don't achieve them and hopethey forget.
And that's tough, you know it'stough because sometimes they're
more aggressive.
You know players out there,yeah, but the challenge is to
(24:32):
get a relationship with aninvestor and you want them to be
a repeat investor and so ifyou've been able to give them
the distributions you said youwere going to give them the
distributions, you said you weregoing to give them Distribution
.
Incidentally, distributionsmost investors are as much
(24:57):
interested in the distributionas they are the overall return.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
They want something you know every year, and if
you've been able to perform itand do what you said you were
going to do, they are morelikely to be up for return
investment.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
It probably has evolved to youknow, like the investor
expectations have grown and,like you said, it's higher
returns.
But at the same token, you wantto be conservative in what
you're projecting out and don'twant to over project out,
because then you don't hit yourdistributions and you don't earn
their trust, where, yeah, Icould show you this number on
(25:32):
paper, but that's not what Ifeel strong about.
And yeah, maybe we did hit thatfrom 2005 to 2019, but you know
, to be able to say we're goingto do that again now.
It's it's hard and I think someof those investors got you know
, they got you know we'rehitting home runs and it's hard
to say you're going to keephitting home runs.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Well, and the related point is there are it's tough
to find opportunities to buyexisting commercial property
that's leased right now.
To buy existing commercialproperty that's leased right now
because, particularly if it hasa loan that preceded 2020 at
(26:19):
one of those three-and-a-halfjobs and we got one of those, so
we like that but the fact isthe owners are living in denial
that in today's world, if theyhad to sell, their property is
worth less than it was back then.
(26:39):
Yeah, as loans mature and asthey have cash requirements, et
cetera, they become morerealistic.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
That's part of the cycle I've been through a bunch
of yeah, that's a great pointbecause we I mean I think most
people, even owners ofcommercial property would pay so
much attention to theresidential market and that
maybe affects kind of the waythat they think about their
commercial property and the factthat, you know, even as rates
continue to climb, folks stillneed to buy and sell and maybe
(27:15):
there's a lot of people moveinto the area and so there's
still demand and so you seeprices rising.
But for commercial, you know, Isaw that especially in you know
23, I guess as rates started toclimb, you know, there was a
commercial property that I wasafter and the owner essentially,
you know, and I showed it tohim too just as interest rates
(27:36):
climbed so fast, he probablylost half a million to a million
dollars in equity, you know,without anything changing for
him, you know.
And so, yeah, I think that'swise, you mentioned in that,
because a lot of people, that'sthe hard part of navigating it
today.
You guys are in very similarfields where you have investors
and your GPs and you knowdifferent.
(27:59):
You know obviously differentspace.
He's in the commercialmultifamily, you're more in the
commercial space, like that, butI think that's just interesting
to note.
Do you have a thought on that?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, I did.
I did, and I think you'resaying it's harder to find deals
.
Has that been part of yourevolution to look outside of
Northwest Arkansas?
You're talking about deals inSouth Carolina and some of these
other projects.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
And actually I have relocated to South Carolina.
I guess my kids grew up overthere while I was with Cooper.
Oh yeah, I've got fivegrandchildren over there.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That's amazing.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
That makes sense.
We've relocated.
My son is actually with ourcompany, but he's an attorney
there as well, and but you knowwe're looking there and it's
tough there too.
Let me remind y'all you youngguys, rates are not high.
(28:54):
We got used to we had 12 years,or 11 or 12 years of zero
interest, and that's not norm.
You see the gray hair or blindhair?
I wish you were gray.
I once had a 16 and a quarterpercent home mortgage in 1980.
(29:23):
So rights are not high rightnow, but the world has not
adjusted to these rights yet.
Yeah, given time it will.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, agreed, I think it's even starting to happen
too.
I think commercial owners arecoming back to earth and people
even in the residential space.
They have to move becausefamily's growing or whatever,
and so, you know, instead ofwaiting on rates to come back
down to four or five, they'rerealizing, like you know, we
(29:57):
need to move, and so we do it.
I think that's a reallyinteresting piece.
Were you going to say something?
Yeah, I was going to say so.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Is that a saying?
You know, if you had a crystalball, you're saying that rates
aren't here to stay.
Rates are.
If you had a crystal ball,you're saying that rates aren't
here to stay.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
You're probably looking at increased rates.
I'm not going to try to predictentropy, I'll be wrong.
But I will say that I'm notscared of the rates now, once
we're in adjustment.
Yeah, and I've worked inenvironments where they were
(30:32):
higher than they are now andthings still work.
Now the anomaly was the 1980deal, that that's a little bit
out of whack, but fortunately Isold that place and got it.
But, yeah, I'm a long-term veerand and all of my investments,
(30:59):
so I'm not betting against theUSA, in spite of all the mess
that's going on right now.
This too shall pass.
It may take longer than I wish,but don't bet against the USA
and we will have opportunitiesalong the way, you just have to
(31:20):
take advantage.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Yeah, I think that's so important to kind of keep the
view, especially as real estateinvestors, keeping the view of
long-term.
I think it's so easy for ourgenerations to want to invest
into things that can go higherquickly, and LPs are probably
thinking the same thing.
They're looking for returnsthat are high and they're soon,
(31:44):
and in real estate that's notthe reality.
And if you're playing the gameto be in it long-term, I think
that's where you're really goingto see the biggest wins in
compounding, obviously.
But I want to go to obviouslyyou mentioned a lot of these
different markets that you guysare in and stuff like that.
What are some things that youguys look at when it comes to
the market?
(32:04):
What are you assessing, youknow, is it?
You know, population increase,is it?
You know this and that I'd loveto just hear, just high level,
what you guys are looking at.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Obviously, growth is important.
But you look at the other.
Is there an industrial base?
If there's a university orcollege there, that's really
good.
Yeah, and if there's auniversity or college there,
that's really good.
In fact, there's one banker'scomment that he'd never made a
bad loan in a university town,which you can still do that.
(32:41):
But that's the point is thatyou look at those things.
We've looked in Charlcharleston, south carolina my
daughter actually lives therebut and charleston has all the
food groups except it's not thecenter of government.
Um, it's got two universitythree, actually three
(33:05):
universities, counting the medschool.
It's got tremendous history,it's got tremendous retirement
and tremendous visitation andit's got the port.
Charleston is the deepest porton the East Coast and so you've
(33:29):
got all of that activity goingon.
So why would you not look atthat as a potential investment
place?
And I've had a place, one of mypartnerships, we own the place
in Charleston, so I'm familiarwith it more than just casually
(33:49):
through that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, it's funny you say that it's because NWA checks
all those boxes University,good, industrial, diverse space,
not just the Waltons so itchecks those boxes.
But sometimes if you're in aspecific niche, you do have to
look at these other marketsbecause there's only so many
strip malls or retail centersyou can call on.
In Northwest Arkansas.
In my case, there was only somany apartment complexes that
(34:11):
weren't owned by Lindsay inNorthwest Arkansas.
How do you see regarding markettrends, interest rates?
No one has a crystal ball.
But what do you see?
Northwest Arkansas, it feelslike we're in an insulated
bubble.
You've been here since 1980.
I've been here for just justover 10 years.
(34:32):
When I first got here, peoplewere like, hey, you should have
seen the last 10 years, and thenI saw these past 10 years.
It's like we're in this bubble.
Do you see some sort ofcorrection in Northwest Arkansas
?
Is that something that you'retracking?
Speaker 4 (34:48):
The growth pattern.
The growth for NorthwestArkansas is gonna continue to be
what it is for a long timeLonger than I'll be around for
and so that's gonna continue Nowand we do have the diversity
(35:09):
that you talked about.
And we do have the diversitythat you talked about and you
know JB Hunt, tyson, walmart andall of the tributaries of those
and New Starts now and theinvolvement of the university in
some things.
All of that is good.
(35:35):
And if you, if I did a studyseveral years ago and we are
relative to Little Rock, whichis the center of government we
had like 60%, 40% fewer.
We had 60% of the attorneys percapita, because we're still
(35:55):
playing catch-up, you know.
So if and yes, if you scalethat back, because you know 10%
have to deal with the governmentand stuff, still we're behind.
If we stopped today, there'dstill be moving in from
attorneys, accountants andothers that are still catching
(36:16):
up.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Because the thing that everybody knows about but
we don't have as much action onright now is infrastructure.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Totally.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
And that's roads, water, sewer Roads in particular
.
Have y'all noticed how much ohyeah, push challenging it is?
Yeah, and we needed the WesternBypass 10 years ago.
I don't know if it's ever gonnahappen.
It's funny I've joked and said,hey, jim, it only costs $3
(36:53):
million, just build it, youwon't miss it.
But that is a problem thatneeds to be addressed.
And because it's gotgovernmental involvement and the
Rogers, bentonville, springdaleand Fayetteville have learned
(37:16):
better to get along with eachother.
But there's still some Fridaynight football going on For sure
.
Yeah, and so and we've got tostart acting more like a single
suburban entity than yeah, thanthe individuals.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
That makes sense, because I mean when, when we, we
talk about and we listen toeverything that's happened,
happens on the rvs, skylinereports and, and everything
they're trying to do to keep thequality of life.
They talk a lot about thequality of life and and, uh,
that goes into it, right, theinfrastructure, you know how?
About how long you have to waitin traffic?
Do people want to live inFayetteville if they work at
(37:53):
Walmart and continue to inFayetteville, continue to thrive
if the traffic is so badgetting north?
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
I mean and go ahead.
It's a.
The two counties are a need tobe taken as a whole, but there
is no downtown northwestArkansas.
There's not going to be.
We're going to be right.
We're going to be developmentsand activities off of the
(38:25):
interstate and that's just theway it is.
And we're not a.
We don't have and never willhave mass transit in the sense
of a centralized urban city.
Yeah, it's just not going tohappen.
Yeah, we can get around alittle bit, but nobody is going
(38:46):
to take a.
You know they were talkingabout putting a train, you know,
from Fayetteville toBentonville.
Yeah, yeah, I said yeah, it'sgoing to stop at every.
You know that's not happening.
Yeah, people are not going todo that Right, we're not trained
in it.
No, no, and so we've got tomake the cars work.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, and then you even mentioned, like you know,
sewer and the other consequencesof huge growth.
Like you're seeing storiescoming out now about Centerton
no more development happening,right, that could be a couple of
years before they can fix ittoo, and so how's that going to
affect the rest of the area?
And you, I mean you, maycontinue to see dominoes of no
(39:35):
more new development in certainareas because they can't handle
the growth, and so I think it'san interesting point, uh, that
that you mentioned there.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
For sure, I don't even see that about Sunderton
they have, they have, they'relike at capacity, pretty much
they're at capacity.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
No new development happening.
From what I understand, itcould take a couple years to fix
too.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I have some investment property in Centerton
so that's maybe not being a badthing for my current investment
.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Right, definitely 100%, and I think everything
else will continue to beaffected around it too.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
We talked a lot about a uniqueness about Northwest
Arkansas, like how there'd neverbe.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
There'd never be a downtownNorthwest Arkansas.
We talk about all these new.
Now there's a downtown.
Johnson Springdale has evolveda lot the past five years.
Really their downtown isbecoming cool, each of these
(40:29):
little.
It's not just Fayetteville andBentonville, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Runnerton wants a downtown, I hear yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
They got some other fish to fry before that, but it
seems these other areas want andthere isn't going to be.
You have the greenway, you cantake a bike everywhere you know,
in 71, but it's's gonna beinteresting.
The infrastructure that's alwayslike the, it's not.
Can we keep up with thepopulation?
These big drivers are going tokeep people coming in, and then
(40:57):
you have the other smallcompanies that stem off from the
big three.
So I think that's it's.
It's we ask other you know,guests that are very involved in
development in the area andthat it seems like
infrastructure is kind of thefirst thought there that we need
to be ahead of.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
To your point, the smaller companies that are
starting and growing.
That's what really is going tobe as much of a driver as the
big guys, the big three, be asmuch of a driver as the big guys
, the big three, and really it'sthe I call it the big five.
(41:35):
It's Walmart, jbi, tysonUniversity and the medical
community.
Yeah, and those are the bigfive.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
But aside from the big five, birthed by the big
five, are so many opportunitiesthat are supported by those
things.
Yeah, absolutely that are gonnabe the drivers.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I saw.
It was really interesting tohear Northwest Arkansas was like
a top 15 tech area.
You know.
Obviously you have SiliconValley, it was just a you know
number one.
But just to.
You have these tech companieswas just a you know number one,
but just to.
You have these tech companiesthat are servicing the vendors
that are going into walmart orservicing these other companies
it's cool.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
It's cool to see, but do what I want to transition a
little bit.
Uh, I think a lot of ourlisteners love to hear about
deals specifically and and uh,what those have looked like over
the years for you.
And there's hundreds ofstrategies out there small
multifamily, large multifamilyfor what Brian does?
Commercial space what is, Iguess, give me an idea of why
(42:40):
someone would choose looking atstrip centers and these
mixed-use spaces like you guysdo.
Why is that a strategy you guyslike over maybe other
strategies?
Speaker 4 (42:51):
out there.
Well, of course we're broaderinto office and all those things
, but you know it comes down tolocation, location, location.
Three most important things inreal estate, not necessarily in
that order.
Three most important things inreal estate, not necessarily in
(43:11):
that order.
It comes down to location andunderstanding the position that
particular property has withrespect to what's around it.
It I'll use Village on theCreeks as an example is we are a
(43:42):
B plus property in the way wescale that, because our rents
are much lower than the newbuildings.
New buildings you're pushing 40bucks a square foot for office
buildings, we're at 25.
So now, if you want a tallbuilding, we're not a candidate.
If you don't need a tallbuilding or, you like, being
(44:03):
able to drive up, we've got morethings than anybody else in
that game because we've got forgoodness sakes, we've got four
restaurants, we've got all thesedifferent services, we've got a
lake, we've got the trail goesright through us, we've got
(44:28):
amenities that make usattractive.
And so you know the locationand the competitive.
Is it competitive with othersin its?
You know, in its area?
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Yeah, I think that's, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Yeah, it's super important.
Yeah, location it's like you.
Can I always compare it to liketaking a plane off against the
wind or with the wind.
Like you know, if you're withthe wind, it's a lot easier with
a good location.
And I think that's interestingabout the competitive like can
you be competitive to the peoplearound you?
And I think that's interestingabout the competitive like can
you be competitive to the peoplearound you and some people.
I think it's tough finding thatspot too, whether you're buying
(45:10):
.
If you're buying the most pre,it might be nice to buy the most
premium product in the area.
You're the prettiest, you'rethe, you got all the bells and
whistles.
But at the same time, who'syour competition Right?
You know, sometimes it's notgood to be at the very top of
the market too.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
Right, you know, sometimes it's not good to be at
the very top of you know wherepeople gather.
I think is you know it.
It's hard to see a scenariowhere where a property, like
Village on the Creech, you knowit goes down in value because
it's it's irreplaceable realestate, right?
I mean it's right, the primemiddle of town, right off of
I-49, um, so it makes sense.
(46:07):
I think that's an interestingthing for investors to think
about.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yeah, Congrats on that spot.
That's interesting how youbought it, sold it and then you
came back.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, dive into that a little bit.
So how did the acquisition ofVillage on the Creech first
happen, and then kind of whatthat looked like.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
Well, the the acquisition, originally it was.
It was defaulting on loans.
This OA or not, then?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Arvest owned it.
Things can default in northwestArkansas.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
I didn't know that I've s-owned it, and so we were.
We said, hey, this locationlooks pretty good.
So I put together a group andwe which included Ms Hunt, was
one of our the single largestinvestor and actually I had met
(47:08):
her and had a relationshipbecause I was working when
Swahart and Miss Hunt weregetting sideways on a bunch of
(47:31):
commercial properties and sothat's how we had met.
So we were able and I think wewere aided by the fact that some
folks one from Little Rock andone from somewhere else had made
an egregiously low offer whichmade our offer look better, and
(47:57):
they took it and we were able toget it financed and were able
to run with it, and we're ableto run with it Subsequently.
We contributed it, with theapproval of all of our partners,
to one of the Keprock groups,keprock II, and at the time we
(48:23):
actually doubled our equity.
When we did that, caprock ownedit for a while and they had a
suitor come by and make an offeron it and they accepted the
(48:45):
offer and then the guy canceledand so I got with my partners
and I said, hey, I'll get agroup and match that offer if
y'all are agreeable.
Because of the conflict here,they said yeah, if you match
that, we're good.
So we did, and so we ended upowning it again.
It's a different partnership.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
That's amazing.
Did it feel like when youbought it the first time around?
Did you feel like you weregetting it at a steep discount?
I was afraid.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
Really, I was afraid for a while I'd paid too much.
Yeah, it was about 68% occupiedat the time and we were able to
get it leased up pretty quicklyand that eased my pain a little
bit.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Absolutely.
I love that.
I'd love to.
We've got about 10 minutes left.
I want to.
I want to dig into a couplemore deals that that you're,
you're proud of, over your, yourtenure of doing this, tell me,
tell me maybe your favorite dealand you know how, how that came
about, what it looked like,maybe how you acquired it and,
uh, you know, maybe any kind offinancing too.
Would love to just get a storyon that you know.
Speaker 4 (49:52):
I'll give you one, that, uh, when I was with cooper
we bought a uh, an officebuilding in east memphis.
Uh, memphis, in downtownMemphis, is not a place you
necessarily want to go, but EastMemphis was okay and we bought
(50:14):
it and we're doing very wellwith it and along comes the.
This was in about 2000-ish, Ican't remember, maybe a little
north of that.
And in the Middle East there'sa bunch of disruption and that's
(50:40):
when somebody was lobbing scudsinto Israel.
Somebody was lobbing scuds intoIsrael and there was this group
of Israeli money that wanted toget out of Israel and get it
invested.
And they paid us a premium.
We made about and we'd owned itfor about five years and we
(51:06):
sold it for we bought it for $38million, sold it for $65
million, Wow, and subsequentlythey sold it for $50 million.
Yeah, so you know we.
What years was this?
Also, this was in 2000, 2006.
(51:27):
Okay, yeah, 2005, somewhere inthat early 2000 period, and that
was not something we sought,but it came to our door.
Sometimes you don't have to golooking, you just have to open
the door.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
You've had a lot of great timing on some of these
deals.
Would you contribute that?
You know, knowing your numbers,you know luck.
God's blessing.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
I tell you, you know, I do believe in God, but he's
not out there helping me.
He's given me, you, given methe ability to discern, but
timing is always some luckinvolved, because you cannot
(52:19):
predict the cycles, which meansyou always want to have the
ability to endure the cycle.
That's what.
If you are not capitalized toweather a cycle, then you can
really get damaged, yeah, andyou don't like the cycle.
But if you get through it youcan avoid those kind of
(52:40):
cataclysmic.
Yeah yeah, um, so um, I thinkthere there is a little bit of
science to it.
Maybe you know experience andexperience comes remember.
(53:01):
Uh, I've um and made this inlike a joke, but it's not really
.
I said I've lived long enoughthat I've made all the mistakes
once.
I just try not to make themtwice.
You know the same kind ofmistake, yeah, and you learn
from those.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
So there is an experience factor that factors
in over over a lifetime did youfeel like when, uh, with your
experience of your first job outof college and things like that
, that gave you the confidenceto kind of start eventually
putting these investment groupstogether and things like that?
Speaker 4 (53:34):
uh, I had, uh, I would say, yeah, that you know
the, particularly the one insouth florida.
You know which were.
I can tell you some storiesabout that.
It was interesting and so, yeah, the longer that you have, and
(53:57):
probably as much as I've moved,the variety of experiences has
done me a good service.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
Yeah, absolutely, having those experiences to help
you figure out has done me agood service.
Yeah, absolutely, having thoseexperiences to help you figure
out what you need to weather thestorm and then, if you can
weather the storm, you can beprepared for good timing too I
think is a lot of value,absolutely.
Speaker 4 (54:18):
I just heard I alluded to this earlier, but one
of the key mistakes that someinvestors make in commercial
properties is not being properlycapitalized and having some
downturn occur and they can'tweather it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
Speaking on that, give us your worst deal that you
ever did, or you know and whatthat looked like.
You may not even have one ofthese, do you I?
Speaker 4 (54:47):
probably do.
I think probably the worst oneis we bought a property in
Kansas City which our partner'sstill on and we bought it from
the bank and I did not read andunderstand the ramifications of
(55:15):
the lease well enough and it wasa company the large, it was
multi-tenant but the largesttenant had some lease elements
that made it very awkward andwe're going to end up we still
own it but we're going to end upprobably losing money.
Speaker 3 (55:33):
Oh really, yeah, Just buying it too high to where
this lease that was in place wastoo the lease.
Speaker 4 (55:40):
it was a lease problem, Mm-hmm, and as it
turned out that that particularmarket this is in Kansas yeah,
it's not as dynamic as we hadanticipated.
Yeah, I want to.
I just flip.
There is one property that thethe best case, that I gave you a
(56:03):
good case, but here's reallythe best case.
This is in Columbia, southCarolina, and it was owned by a
real estate investment trust andthey had been told that they
needed to divest of their SouthCarolina property, that they
(56:26):
needed to divest of their SouthCarolina property.
It was publicly traded by somedude in New York and they had to
get it done before the end ofthe first quarter and we had
cash and we were equipped to dothat.
And we were equipped to do thatand we bought a nine-story
(56:58):
building for like $30 a squarefoot.
And my partner said well,dewitt, don't you want to
analyze this?
I said no, I just want to buyit.
And we ended up making afortune.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
Yes, how long?
Speaker 4 (57:10):
was that hold?
We held it, I think, about sixyears.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Six years, okay, and what does financing typically
look like on a size buildinglike that?
I mean just generally.
Speaker 4 (57:25):
Well, it depends on what cycle you're in and it
depends on where you go.
You can always get longer-termloans in the insurance carrier,
and they've got some interestingthings that they do that make
it fun.
Mm-hmm, banks generally willnot go that long, yeah, and you
(57:52):
can get fixed rates for thatlong in the insurance world
because their spread is againsta 10-year treasury.
Yeah, they're looking longBanks it's shorter, and so you
can get a five or sometimes youcan get a seven year fix, but
(58:13):
five is the standard, okay, butthe bank rates were so much
better during the teams, youknow, because the short-term
rates were zero.
The 10-year rate was stillsomething.
(58:36):
Some of the spreads were a lotbetter and banks gave better
loans, gotcha, and you know,then they don't.
They've moved back from that alittle bit now.
And they became stuff Right.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
yeah, I love this part of capitalizing.
I mean, I think it's abouthaving the right reserves and
putting the right debt on.
It is a huge piece too.
Speaker 4 (58:59):
Yeah, almost as important as the deal, sometimes
having the right debt andremember that appropriate amount
of debt is attractive.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
I think it depends on the cycle, the denominator,
effect, meaning you have lessequity.
Speaker 4 (59:15):
So your returns, if the cost of the debt is not
excessive, you have positiveleverage.
But that can turn on you if therates go up or if you have too
much debt.
No, and there are a lot ofpeople that play with a lot more
debt than I'm willing to play.
Yeah, I've got a conservativeapproach there absolutely is
(59:40):
there a house paid off or no?
well it would be, except uh, Ihad a guy come by with uh, I'd
already bought it with uh twoand a quarter percent of money.
Yes, I know yeah I said, uh, 15or 15 year mortgage.
And I said, okay, I gottafigure I can make a spray a
(01:00:03):
little night yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
I love that we're just as we wrap up, do it, I it.
I want to just hit on thisquestion before we go what
advice would you have for youngfolks looking to get into the
space that you're in, looking atlarger commercial deals that
maybe they're not these smallermom-and-pop deals but can get
(01:00:27):
into this prime real estate?
So what advice would you havesomebody kind of getting started
and looking to make a movethere?
Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
I would tell them A, if you are willing to take the
time and train up a little bitand don't think you're going to
be the boss the first day or thesecond year or the third year
and I think it would beattractive to go with a larger
(01:00:56):
company you know and getexperience before you launch out
Yep, which means you have tohave some patience and you have
to believe that there's gold atthe end of that rainbow and
opportunities will presentthemselves later on.
Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
I love it.
Yeah, that's so good.
I think we always talk about it, but being able to see
long-term with real estate andthen just kind of focus on the
day to day, I think isunbelievably important.
But we've loved kind of gettingto dive into your experience
and you've got so much of it inso many different areas and
(01:01:37):
hearing about deals you've doneand just kind of the approach
that you take, and so we'resuper thankful to have you on.
Brian, do you have anythingelse?
Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, I appreciate it .
That was a great list.
I mean, there's a lot ofdifferent parts of this podcast
you could rewind and listen to acouple of times.
So, yeah, we definitelyappreciate the value you've
given us today.
Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Well, thank, you all for the opportunity.
It's been nice, yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Absolutely Well.
We appreciate you and we'relooking forward to talking to
you soon.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Again, thank you guys for tuning in.
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done a ton of deals.
We probably do between 65 to 80deals a year together and they
(01:04:44):
do a great job.
The SOPs, so systems andprocessing that they have over
Advantage Title is justincredible.
Clients love it.
They do a great job from startto end communicating.
When I give a deal to AdvantageTitle and escrow, I know that
it's going to be taken care of.
There's no second guessing.
I almost am able to treat themlike a second transaction
(01:05:05):
coordinator to my transactioncoordinator that I already have.
I know that they're going tohandle the systems and processes
correctly as an agent, as ahomeowner, as a buyer or seller.
They do an incredible job ofhandling a transaction and
communicating throughout theprocess.
They do a great job withcommunication, especially Kayla
Phillips over there.
I would highly encourage you,if you're looking to close on a
(01:05:28):
home, buy a home.
If you're an agent, listeningto use advantage title and
escrow specifically kaylaphillips.
So you're going to reach kaylabest at 501-358-1601, six oh one
, or you can email her Kayla C,a, y, l, a at go advantage
(01:05:50):
titlecom advantages A, d, v, a,n, t, a, g, e, titlecom.
Our next sponsor is TDS IT.
That's T as in Tim D, as indocument S, as in solution
T-S-I-T.
That's T as in Tim D, as indocument S, as in solution I, as
in information T as intechnology.
This one hits personal.
(01:06:10):
It's close to home.
My dad, tim Stanley, runs TDSITand he decided to sponsor our
podcast.
So I can speak from personalexperience.
I've been able to work for mydad in the past as well and
they're a great, great solutionfor business technology If
you're a local business owner oreven out of state.
(01:06:32):
If you're running a business,need printers, need information
IT services.
If you need phones, scanners,printers all the way up to you
know you're printing books tohey, we just need something in
the office.
All the way up to you knowyou're printing books to hey, we
just need something in theoffice.
Tdsit is that spot.
(01:06:55):
They provide the best in brandbusiness technology with proven
best in local service, and theycan prove it.
Our next sponsor is from OneStone Private Lending.
This episode is brought to youby One Stone Private Lending,
one of the top private and hardmoney lenders now serving
Northwest Arkansas.
Whether you need short-termcapital for a flip, a bridge
loan or creative financing,they've got you covered with
very flexible products to fitnearly any deal, including 100%
(01:07:17):
financing.
What sets them apart is theirdeep expertise, fast response
times and ability to thinkoutside of the box to help
investors like us close quicklyand efficiently.
If you're looking for a reallending partner, check out
Winstone Private Lending.
Link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Special thanks to one of our sponsors who I've worked
with personally on multifamilycommercial loans as well as
business acquisitions.
People's Bank works withentrepreneurs, investors,
dealmakers and risk takers.
They're the ones who seeopportunities where others see
obstacles, whether it's a vacantlot with a plan for a thriving
business or making an old spacenew.
They work with creators whothink big and are not satisfied
(01:07:57):
with the status quo.
People's Bank helps you buildArkansas, deal by deal and brick
by brick.
They don't just see numbers ona spreadsheet, they see your
passion and vision.
People's Bank, it's wherepeople come first.
Member FDIC.
If you're needing loanassistance, reach out to Dakota
at 870-883-1706 or dhedden atpeoplesbankarcom.
Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
If you enjoyed the show, make sure to give us a
follow on your favorite podcastplatform so you never miss an
update.
Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Don't forget to connect with us on Instagram,
facebook and LinkedIn for morereal estate insights and behind
the scenes content.
Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
I have a question you want us to cover.
Send it our way and if you'reinterested in sponsoring the
show, visit nwainvestingcom toget in touch.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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