September 17, 2025 • 26 mins
Northwest Arkansas has quietly become one of America's most competitive real estate markets, catching many out-of-state investors by surprise. When sophisticated buyers arrive with millions to deploy, they often discover a stark reality: this isn't the bargain market they expected.
Commercial real estate expert Clinton Bennett pulls back the curtain on this phenomenon, revealing why properties in Bentonville, Fayetteville, and surrounding areas command cap rates that rival or exceed those in much larger metropolitan areas. "You almost have to buy your way into the market by paying a premium," Bennett explains, noting that patient investors who accepted this reality five years ago have been "pretty well rewarded" as rents and property values consistently outperform projections.
The conversation explores how Northwest Arkansas's commercial real estate landscape has evolved, with increasingly complex deals requiring greater sophistication from all parties involved. While motivated sellers remain scarce and competition fierce, opportunities exist for investors who understand the market's fundamentals. Bennett offers practical wisdom on evaluating investments, emphasizing properties acquired below replacement cost with clear paths to rental growth.
Looking forward, several sectors show particular promise. Medical real estate emerges as an area with significant untapped demand, while Class A office space continues strong performance despite contrary national trends. The region's maturation has created distinct property classes across sectors, signaling its evolution into a more sophisticated market.
For investors, developers, and real estate professionals, this episode provides essential context for understanding Northwest Arkansas's unique market dynamics. Whether you're already invested in the region or considering your first acquisition, Bennett's insights offer valuable perspective on navigating this competitive landscape.
Subscribe now to hear more expert interviews and market analysis on the Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast, your essential resource for building wealth through real estate in this dynamic region.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast, your
go-to source for real estateinvesting in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
With your seasoned investor just starting out.
We bring you expert insights,market trends and practical
strategies to help you buildwealth through real estate.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
From buying and selling to property management
and long-term investmentplanning.
We cover it all so you can makesmart, informed decisions in
this fast-growing market.
Let's dive in.
Welcome back to NorthwestArkansas Investing Podcast.
We've got Mr Clinton Bennetthere with us again.
We just kind of wrapped up ourfirst episode, just getting to
know him, getting to know kindof what he does, what he's kind
(00:42):
of, his upbringing and what gothim into commercial real estate,
and then a little bit abouttheir merger with Focus
Commercial Real Estate and kindof the team they built out there
.
So if you haven't listened tothat yet, go back and take a
look at that.
But we just wanted to get intoa quick episode talking a little
bit more about market data,some trends that you're seeing,
(01:03):
and really just kind of get apulse on what you've seen over
the last few years and howthings have changed in Northwest
Arkansas.
And so thanks again for yourtime, as always.
But wanted to just hop right into.
You know, I think, a bigquestion that a lot of folks
have that are specifically notin the area.
Maybe they're out of statelooking to put money in
(01:23):
Northwestansas or get to knowthe market a little bit more.
Um, what, what are some ofthese?
You know, most people will know, you know nationally,
bittenville, they've heard ofbittenville and they see it in
the wall street journal.
They've seen fayetteville popup in articles you know best
places to live every year andstuff like that.
Um, and maybe they've heard ofspringdale and Rogers and kind
(01:43):
of the things that are happeningthere.
But for you it could be acrossthose four.
It could be, you know, in someof these other emerging sub
markets.
But what do you see as somegreat opportunity coming up in
25 and 26 and beyond inNorthwest Arkansas?
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Sure, yeah, well, and I'll.
I may kind of answer that alittle differently, like when I
think about where the commercialreal estate market is now and
like what some of the trendshave been.
We're seeing you get thesegroups that come in from out of
town.
They're seeing all the stuff inthe news that you're talking
about the Wall Street Journalarticles or the Milken studies
(02:20):
and I mean we're on people'sradar now and there are a lot of
people, there's a lot ofcapital that is interested in
finding a way to get deployed inthis market.
And it's funny because I meangenerally, and I think you're
seeing a lot of this in themultifamily space.
You know there are people withfamily offices or you know
(02:41):
private money or you know Idon't know where all the capital
comes from, but they're peoplewho come in from chicago or
dallas or you know denver or youname it.
They're coming from all overand they will find their way to
my office or other's office andbe like hey, you know, we've got
30 million dollars we'd like todeploy in northwest arkansas.
And my general perception is,my general thought is I don't
(03:05):
think they realize how difficultthat is to do, like I think
they think they're going to rollin with a bunch of cash and
they're used to executing ondeals in other markets.
This size much easier than like.
This is a tighter market.
It's harder to buy things andyou almost have to like I may
confuse people with the way I'musing these terms, but you
almost have to like I'm not I'm.
(03:26):
I may confuse people with theway I'm using these terms, but
you almost have to buy your wayinto the market by paying a
premium, like certainly you gotto buy.
You like people wanting to buycommercial real estate, but they
may be used to buying, you knowclass b office buildings at an
eight cap per one one somewhere,and you buy class b office for
they're giving it away.
But we certainly do not haveproblems with office vacancy in
(03:49):
our market.
Our office market is verystrong.
But, and even in other similarmarkets where the office
market's generally very strong,you may have people that are
used to buying, buying stuff foreight cap.
Or maybe they play in theindustrial space and they're
used to buying for a, you know,seven cap.
Well, what we're seeing innorthwest Arkansas is you know
that may be a six cap or a fivecap and you know they'll look at
(04:14):
us and they'll say, well, Imean, look for this quality of
real estate.
We can't justify, you know,spending enough money and only
getting a you know five cap topreturn, right, um, you know, now
I'm the kind of differentmetrics and they look at some
like spending enough money andonly getting a five-cap type
return.
Now I look on their differentmetrics and they look at it.
So I'm probably being a littleoverly simplistic, but cap rates
are an easy way to talk aboutthis stuff, but they'll look at
(04:34):
it like man, we're not paying afive-cap for buildings like this
.
And so we've had a number ofconversations with people that
have a lot of capital that wouldlike to spend it in Northwest
Arkansas, but they just can'tget comfortable with what they
perceive as the premium of whatit takes to buy into the market.
What we have seen and I don'tthink you can bet on this long
(04:57):
term I think it's a risk.
You might be able to inNorthwest Arkansas, but I think
it's a little bit of a riskystrategy but we have seen the
people that are willing toalmost overpay and kind of look
at the market as though you'relike, hey, they're not looking
at where the puck is today.
They're looking at where it'sgoing Right and the people that
are willing to come in and sayyou know what?
We're paying a little more thanwe wanted to, but we like the
(05:20):
quality of the real estate, welike the story of this property.
We, like you, know thelong-term prospects that we're
just going to.
We're going to pay a bit of apremium.
Yeah Well, what we've seen overthe last you know, five years
or whatever, is the people thatwere willing to do that have
been pretty, pretty wellrewarded.
So I would say that's a realtrend.
(05:41):
I'm trying to bring this intolike some concise points, but
that's a real trend.
It's like if you really want tobuy and build a presence in
Northwest Arkansas commercialreal estate, it's not an easy
thing to do.
There's a lot of competition.
I think a lot of the investorsthat come in are surprised by
how many people are trying to dothe same thing.
The sellers aren't particularlymotivated.
(06:02):
They're pretty happy with whatthey've got.
They're fine keeping it forwhatever, um, or whatever amount
of time.
You know people have differentlife circumstances so sometimes
they sell, but for the most partwe don't see sellers that are
very motivated.
So you know it's harder to buyinto.
The other big trend is umcomplexity of the deals and the
(06:25):
size of the deals has reallychanged over the past five years
.
I mean it's changed every yearfrom the past 20 that I've been
around, but it feels like we'reseeing it more distinctively
with every passing year.
The deals are more technical.
I think the stakes are justhigher, so the players are more
(06:49):
sophisticated.
With sophisticated players, youget sophisticated lawyers and
you get bankers that have gotmore contingencies.
The way the real estate game isplayed or the process plays out,
um is a little more technicalnow than it was in the past and
it just feels like it's you knowthat's that's building every
(07:12):
year and there's part of methat's embraced, like I kind of
enjoy it.
So there are parts of it thatmake it harder, like it's hard
to get a real estate deal done.
Now, um, I kind of look at thatlike game on, like that's fine,
like we're we're, we're downwith the challenge, like we're
ready to go, try to figure outand get them done.
Um, and I do think that thefirms that embrace that and have
(07:33):
the capabilities to manage thatare going to be more
competitive, go forward um sonot to get off talking about
commercial, say, brokerage, butthe market as a whole, you know
there's a lot of competitionthere's, the deals are more
complex.
So, yeah, it's just we'reseeing an evolution, I think, in
(07:53):
the skill and quality andtechnical ability of the players
that are in the market I thinkyou spoke to it a little bit too
is you know?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
obviously there's not a lot of motivated sellers in
the market because, especiallyif they've owned it for you know
five or more years, they'vereally benefited from.
You know, occupancy's superhigh and rates have continued to
go.
But you know, and I think youcan look at all the data that
comes out, the RVEST Skylinereport is one that we've talked
(08:21):
on in a previous episode as well.
But it's kind of crazy to seesome of our vacancy rates
compared to the rest of thecountry and you know how would
you not want to take a look atthat as an investor outside?
But as far as rental rates andlike pricing that, you, how does
(08:42):
that?
How do you see that compared to?
You know, are there othermarkets similar out there that
are at our size?
Uh, that are seen?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
no, I I think we're higher.
I mean, I don't want to speakto that with any real confidence
because I don't do a lot ofbusiness in other markets, but
what we have seen from thecomments of clients that deal
with other markets and tenantsthat then occupy space in other
markets, they're usually prettysurprised, uh, at how expensive
real estate is in northwestharkins.
(09:10):
So you know the lease pricesfor new spaces.
I've had this comment, you know, periodically for 20 years I've
had some regional real estatedirector for you know company X
come into town, let's just callit like a fast food user and
they'll come into town.
They'll be like, okay, we needto buy a you know the best acre
(09:30):
lot.
I'm like, okay, well, that lotyou know, in 2008 was, uh, you
know, 20 bucks a foot and nowit's 40 bucks a butt.
But they would always andwhether, whatever year it's
been're like holy cow, man, likethat is a lot, like we couldn't
.
That's what it costs, you know,to buy enough.
You know rapidly growing suburbof dallas or you know right
(09:52):
outside of atlanta, like a big,mature market, like with with
really established demographics,like we can, we're not paying
that much in those markets andI've always just kind of like
look, man, I don't set theprices, I just try to help these
guys sell it.
Like, if you don't want it,there'll be somebody else that
buys it.
And you know you can't tellsomebody that, but the reality
(10:15):
is that's how our market expands.
It doesn't really matter to meif you're talking about
industrial or office or retailland.
You know there are users thatneed a location and those people
will show up and they're likegolly man, this is more than we
(10:37):
had expected to pay, but we'vegot.
Whatever this businessinitiative is, we need to get
that going, we, we need to getthat going.
We need real estate to get thatgoing, and so, gosh, we're
going to have to pay a littlebit of premium, but we'll do it.
Yeah.
And so the way our market'sgrown there's just been enough
of that that it keeps expanding,yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
We had Tom Allen on a while back and it's funny you
mention that because he saidkind of the same thing.
You know, obviously he does alot with uh miss hunt and mrs
hunt uh obviously has done a lothere in the pinnacle area and
uh, he mentioned kind of in alot of those meetings it's
beforehand, you know, thepreliminary, before they built
the buildings.
They're like we think we canget this, and then then they
(11:20):
build it, yeah, and they, youknow, end up throwing out some
what he would say are outrageousrates and they keep getting
leased up at these rates thatthey wouldn't have expected,
yeah, and so that just keepspressing up because it's in, you
know, especially in primelocations where there's a ton of
demand and not any supply.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah no, I listened to that episode and he's right.
And not any supply?
Yeah no, I listened to thatepisode and he's right.
I love Tom.
Tom's been a great friendthrough my career and he's right
.
But one thing I kind of want toclarify the way you said that.
You know it can sound tosomeone listening from the
outside in as though thedevelopers are making some wild
profit and the reality is Idon't think they are.
(12:01):
I mean the cost of construction.
You know the cost ofdevelopment, the cost of all
these layers that it takes toreally deliver a new building by
the time you do that and finishout the office space.
You know, I don't know whattheir rents are in the visionary
building, but call them.
I'll just say call them 40 bucksa foot.
Just for swag.
I should yell that number but Ihaven't checked them lately.
(12:22):
But call them 40 bucks a foot.
You know it's not like Ms Huntor Tom or the partners in that
building are making some giantwindfall.
I mean, they've taken a lot ofrisk to deliver those buildings
and sure they're making a return, but the real money is made on
the next flip of the lease.
(12:43):
You know, or at least that'swhat we've seen um right, but
yes, yeah, the market seems to.
The market complains a littlebit but it seems to absorb the
increasing prices.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, absolutely the equity has to be like you said.
You have these out-of-stateplayers that are coming into the
market that expect oh it'sarkansas, we can get these
prices, but it's similar toDallas or more.
But they have to be okaygetting that five-cap return
today.
If the equity is patient enough, then you just may get the type
of returns as a seven-cap buybecause your rents go up more
(13:17):
than what you expected.
But for the right peoplethey're okay making shorter
returns where it's almost a beton the future.
That, yes, I'll make it.
There's a lot more upside.
So if you buy right, you can, aslong as you're financing right,
you can pivot and save yourselfthere.
(13:37):
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is be okay not having those
high returns.
If you're really wanting to getin this market, then one,
you're getting the experience,you're in the deal, but also the
market may just be morefavorable five years down the
road.
Like you said, every year itseems like man, you want how
much and we are paying this much, but it just keeps continuing.
(13:58):
So it's hard to say that it'llcontinue at that pace.
But we'll see.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
I agree with you 100% .
And yeah, that is a riskystatement to say it'll continue
at that pace.
I mean, it kind of feels likeit it has been, Maybe it will
continue to.
But I agree with you 100%.
The people that have beenwilling to take the risk and go
ahead and buy deals where youknow the returns may not feel
great day one.
They've really been rewardedbecause the rents have grown
(14:26):
faster than they expected andyou know the comp prices have
grown faster than they expectedand so all of a sudden they find
themselves in you know, two orthree years.
They might have thought it wasgoing to be a 10-year hold, uh,
but they might find themselves.
You know.
What we've seen is you get twoor three or four years down the
road.
It's like holy cow.
This thing's gone up 20% and sowe're seeing some people sell.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And you mentioned it too development.
It seems like it's gottenharder to develop.
That's the thing you know.
That comes with, like you said,there's challenges on the
development period.
You have the negative interestperiod, the finance period,
where you don't have any rentersyet You're not fully leased.
(15:07):
So you you do have.
Your cost of construction isrising.
People who have this land thatwant high prices and now we're
having some infrastructure.
You know problems too, so it'snot, uh, a walk in the park to
develop no, it's not, and I madea comment earlier that I think
ties to this.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
I won't circle back to the words I was talking about
how there are.
With that said, there are somepeople that have owned these
properties for a long time andthey're like you know, it's
coming up a lot and it'sprobably going to go up more,
but I'm pretty happy with thisappreciation that I've seen.
So, yeah, I will go ahead andsell and, you know, good luck to
the buyer.
(15:39):
Hopefully he makes some money.
So there is a contingent ofpeople that are kind of, you
know, life changes or maybethey're retiring or maybe
they're moving or whatever.
Where we are seeing somesellers and I think some of them
it is because, you know, peopletalk about passive income in
real estate like it just doesn'texist.
I mean, unless you're investingas an LP partner, it does not
(16:01):
exist.
And I think people, even withreally high quality real estate
that has, you know, high qualityprofessional management, some
of them are like you know, I'drather just sell and, you know,
do something else with this cash.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I think there will always be that and you know,
like you said, there's alwaysgoing to be death, divorce.
You know the typical stuff inreal estate.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
One question I have for you, though.
When you're evaluating deals oryou're advising clients like
how do you, how are you, whatare some key metrics that you're
looking at?
For it's going to be overlysimplistic, but I like looking
at deals that are less than thecost to replace them.
So if you're looking at a Idon't know a flex warehouse
building like, I want to buy itfor less than it would cost to
build them.
So if you're looking at a Idon't know a flex warehouse
building like, I want to buy itfor less than it would cost to
build a new one.
Um, if you've got tenants inthere, I want them to be at a
rent amount where, if they leave, you're not really necessarily
(16:54):
upset about that.
You know you can go release thespace, yeah, um, and I, you
know you want it to be in a spotwhere you think there's well.
This is maybe ancillary to theother two, but I like to say you
know you want to put yourselfin a position to get lucky.
You know I like to have realestate.
That's a good location.
It's kind of the path of growth.
(17:15):
If it's got some problems, youknow you can deal with that, but
you price it in.
But generally the way I look atit and the way I advise clients
is like look, you know you wantto see yourself getting into
something that's you're gettinga basis that's less than the
cost you'd build and you want tohave a really clear path to,
you know, raising the rats andreleasing it if you lose a
tenant.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Absolutely so it sounds like understanding
replacement costs.
Number one is important, butalso maybe even vacancy rate is
something that you're lookingpretty well at.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Yeah, I would say, and there's not a great way to
answer this question.
If anybody tells you that theyknow, it is not telling the
truth.
You know if you're looking atbuying anything.
In my opinion I shouldn't saythe most, but I I mean, I think
one of the most important thingsis knowing what you can like.
Oh, your tenants that are inthere, what is the next turn of
(18:09):
the rental rates going to looklike?
What is the finish out that'sgoing to, you know, for you?
You've got the cost of turningapartments and you can kind of
define that pretty well.
Well, in an office building, youdon't know, a tenant may move
out and you might have to spend120 bucks a foot to remodel that
space.
So there's not a right or wronganswer.
But you have to have enoughmarket knowledge to be like to
(18:32):
have confidence that you canpredict what it will release for
what your likely you know refitcosts will be and what your
likely uh downtime will be.
Because when you put thosevariables in your financial
model, I mean it can swing itone way or the other, uh, in a
big way, and you know the otherpart of that is the other layer.
(18:52):
Then is, you know, noteverybody's cut out to play in
this game, because there's justa lot of risk.
Sometimes you may have a greatspace that just doesn't leach
for a long time.
Yeah, you just didn't get theright person.
There's some, you know, luckcan make you look like a genius
or a fool on some of these dealsyeah, absolutely, I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I think, uh, yeah, I, that's a great point.
I think it's easy for a lot ofus younger guys to look back or
look at, kind of.
You know a lot of these guysthat have owned, you know a lot
of property in Nolte, arkansasfor a long time.
You know you see the joke likethey bought it for three peanuts
and a raspberry and now they'regoing for six caps or less in
(19:35):
good areas but again it'sputting themselves in positions
where they can get lucky andright location.
You know the metrics make sense.
All that good stuff so it'seven buying it right on their
end.
I think is important.
One question, just as we wrapup this quick Market Insights
piece.
One question, just as we wrapup this quick Market Insights
piece as far as differentsections of the market
(19:58):
multifamily, office, industrial,any others what are you most
excited about in NorthwestArkansas moving?
Speaker 4 (20:05):
forward?
Well, that's a tough one toanswer.
I mean, the whole market isreally exciting.
I think it's going to befascinating to see.
It's funny I was listening toTyler Overstreet.
I was driving in here listeningto your episode that just
dropped.
He was talking about medical.
I think medical is going to bea major shift for all of us.
I don't think we recognize whatthe demand is.
(20:28):
It's going to take a while forthat demand to spin up, but it's
happening.
I think medical is going to bereally interesting.
Um, you know, the demand forclass a office continues to to
surprise people, uh, who Ishouldn't say I'm surprised, but
it, you know, everybody'spleased with how that just
continues to grow.
(20:48):
And so we do have this realtranche of class a office
buildings, which used to we hadone or two.
Well, now we've got some realclass a buildings and we're
coming online.
Um, which, and what's happenedthere is now we got a real class
b segment which is in the classc, like we're maturing as a
market.
(21:08):
So we have these differentclasses, different options.
So, you know, I think I'm justexcited to see different options
.
So, you know, I think I'm justexcited to see see us mature as
a market.
I mean, we do have a real classa office saying we got our
industrial.
If you look at our industrialbuildings, you know the
industrial buildings that arenow coming online are real class
a industrial buildings um.
So there's just an, there's anevolution that's going on.
(21:31):
Um, I you know, I think most ofit is probably not going to be
that exciting question.
I think I find the medicalparticularly exciting.
I think the retail um is uh,you know that it's hard to
develop retail, but we've gotsome, some cool properties
coming online.
Uh, you know we do.
(21:51):
I hate to plug our listings,necessarily, but we do a lot of
work with the high street guysand you know the work they're
doing around johnson, in themiddle of the street, is
fantastic.
You know there's a lot, the,the group that's working on
drake farms, you know there'ssome really exciting.
Uh, I guess the, the qualityand the, the mix of uses with
(22:11):
development, is fun to see thatcoming.
So I feel like I've kind oframbled a little bit.
No, I love that.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
There's a lot that's great, yeah, no, I love that.
I think I mean, like TylerOverstreet said, there's even a
lot of city changes that aregoing to be happening, and have
been happening even in the lastfive years, ten years, to kind
of accommodate the growth andkind of continue to do some
great things.
So I think there's a lot tounpack here on what we talked
(22:37):
about there and we're justthankful for your knowledge,
thankful for your time I knowit's valuable and just kind of
your insight on what you'reseeing in the market, what
you're excited about and wherecan listeners get to know you or
find you if they want to reachout Sure.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yeah well, no thanks for having for having.
I enjoy your show andappreciate you having me on, um
kind of enjoyed the visit.
Uh, yeah, we're so focuscommercial real estate.
We're pretty easy to find youjust google us.
But it's, it's focus, cre,groupcom and um, you know I've
said my entire career, we're nothard sell people.
So if somebody just wants totalk about commercial real
estate or or, you know, visit alittle bit, you know, feel free
(23:14):
to call and happy to meet andtalk about what's going on in
the market.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Awesome, pleasant Yep .
Well, glenn, we appreciate yourtime, as always, and we're
grateful for it.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
So yeah, thanks, guys .
Again, thank you guys fortuning in.
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communicating throughout theprocess.
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(25:16):
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(25:38):
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Speaker 2 (26:29):
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Speaker 3 (26:34):
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Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Welcome to Northwest Arkansas Investing Podcast, your
go-to source for real estateinvesting in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
With your seasoned investor just starting out.
We bring you expert insights,market trends and practical
strategies to help you buildwealth through real estate.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
From buying and selling to property management
and long-term investmentplanning.
We cover it all so you can makesmart, informed decisions in
this fast-growing market.
Let's dive in.
Welcome back to NorthwestArkansas Investing Podcast.
We've got Mr Clinton Bennetthere with us again.
We just kind of wrapped up ourfirst episode, just getting to
know him, getting to know kindof what he does, what he's kind
(00:42):
of, his upbringing and what gothim into commercial real estate,
and then a little bit abouttheir merger with Focus
Commercial Real Estate and kindof the team they built out there
.
So if you haven't listened tothat yet, go back and take a
look at that.
But we just wanted to get intoa quick episode talking a little
bit more about market data,some trends that you're seeing,
(01:03):
and really just kind of get apulse on what you've seen over
the last few years and howthings have changed in Northwest
Arkansas.
And so thanks again for yourtime, as always.
But wanted to just hop right into.
You know, I think, a bigquestion that a lot of folks
have that are specifically notin the area.
Maybe they're out of statelooking to put money in
(01:23):
Northwestansas or get to knowthe market a little bit more.
Um, what, what are some ofthese?
You know, most people will know, you know nationally,
bittenville, they've heard ofbittenville and they see it in
the wall street journal.
They've seen fayetteville popup in articles you know best
places to live every year andstuff like that.
Um, and maybe they've heard ofspringdale and Rogers and kind
(01:43):
of the things that are happeningthere.
But for you it could be acrossthose four.
It could be, you know, in someof these other emerging sub
markets.
But what do you see as somegreat opportunity coming up in
25 and 26 and beyond inNorthwest Arkansas?
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Sure, yeah, well, and I'll.
I may kind of answer that alittle differently, like when I
think about where the commercialreal estate market is now and
like what some of the trendshave been.
We're seeing you get thesegroups that come in from out of
town.
They're seeing all the stuff inthe news that you're talking
about the Wall Street Journalarticles or the Milken studies
(02:20):
and I mean we're on people'sradar now and there are a lot of
people, there's a lot ofcapital that is interested in
finding a way to get deployed inthis market.
And it's funny because I meangenerally, and I think you're
seeing a lot of this in themultifamily space.
You know there are people withfamily offices or you know
(02:41):
private money or you know Idon't know where all the capital
comes from, but they're peoplewho come in from chicago or
dallas or you know denver or youname it.
They're coming from all overand they will find their way to
my office or other's office andbe like hey, you know, we've got
30 million dollars we'd like todeploy in northwest arkansas.
And my general perception is,my general thought is I don't
(03:05):
think they realize how difficultthat is to do, like I think
they think they're going to rollin with a bunch of cash and
they're used to executing ondeals in other markets.
This size much easier than like.
This is a tighter market.
It's harder to buy things andyou almost have to like I may
confuse people with the way I'musing these terms, but you
almost have to like I'm not I'm.
(03:26):
I may confuse people with theway I'm using these terms, but
you almost have to buy your wayinto the market by paying a
premium, like certainly you gotto buy.
You like people wanting to buycommercial real estate, but they
may be used to buying, you knowclass b office buildings at an
eight cap per one one somewhere,and you buy class b office for
they're giving it away.
But we certainly do not haveproblems with office vacancy in
(03:49):
our market.
Our office market is verystrong.
But, and even in other similarmarkets where the office
market's generally very strong,you may have people that are
used to buying, buying stuff foreight cap.
Or maybe they play in theindustrial space and they're
used to buying for a, you know,seven cap.
Well, what we're seeing innorthwest Arkansas is you know
that may be a six cap or a fivecap and you know they'll look at
(04:14):
us and they'll say, well, Imean, look for this quality of
real estate.
We can't justify, you know,spending enough money and only
getting a you know five cap topreturn, right, um, you know, now
I'm the kind of differentmetrics and they look at some
like spending enough money andonly getting a five-cap type
return.
Now I look on their differentmetrics and they look at it.
So I'm probably being a littleoverly simplistic, but cap rates
are an easy way to talk aboutthis stuff, but they'll look at
(04:34):
it like man, we're not paying afive-cap for buildings like this
.
And so we've had a number ofconversations with people that
have a lot of capital that wouldlike to spend it in Northwest
Arkansas, but they just can'tget comfortable with what they
perceive as the premium of whatit takes to buy into the market.
What we have seen and I don'tthink you can bet on this long
(04:57):
term I think it's a risk.
You might be able to inNorthwest Arkansas, but I think
it's a little bit of a riskystrategy but we have seen the
people that are willing toalmost overpay and kind of look
at the market as though you'relike, hey, they're not looking
at where the puck is today.
They're looking at where it'sgoing Right and the people that
are willing to come in and sayyou know what?
We're paying a little more thanwe wanted to, but we like the
(05:20):
quality of the real estate, welike the story of this property.
We, like you, know thelong-term prospects that we're
just going to.
We're going to pay a bit of apremium.
Yeah Well, what we've seen overthe last you know, five years
or whatever, is the people thatwere willing to do that have
been pretty, pretty wellrewarded.
So I would say that's a realtrend.
(05:41):
I'm trying to bring this intolike some concise points, but
that's a real trend.
It's like if you really want tobuy and build a presence in
Northwest Arkansas commercialreal estate, it's not an easy
thing to do.
There's a lot of competition.
I think a lot of the investorsthat come in are surprised by
how many people are trying to dothe same thing.
The sellers aren't particularlymotivated.
(06:02):
They're pretty happy with whatthey've got.
They're fine keeping it forwhatever, um, or whatever amount
of time.
You know people have differentlife circumstances so sometimes
they sell, but for the most partwe don't see sellers that are
very motivated.
So you know it's harder to buyinto.
The other big trend is umcomplexity of the deals and the
(06:25):
size of the deals has reallychanged over the past five years
.
I mean it's changed every yearfrom the past 20 that I've been
around, but it feels like we'reseeing it more distinctively
with every passing year.
The deals are more technical.
I think the stakes are justhigher, so the players are more
(06:49):
sophisticated.
With sophisticated players, youget sophisticated lawyers and
you get bankers that have gotmore contingencies.
The way the real estate game isplayed or the process plays out,
um is a little more technicalnow than it was in the past and
it just feels like it's you knowthat's that's building every
(07:12):
year and there's part of methat's embraced, like I kind of
enjoy it.
So there are parts of it thatmake it harder, like it's hard
to get a real estate deal done.
Now, um, I kind of look at thatlike game on, like that's fine,
like we're we're, we're downwith the challenge, like we're
ready to go, try to figure outand get them done.
Um, and I do think that thefirms that embrace that and have
(07:33):
the capabilities to manage thatare going to be more
competitive, go forward um sonot to get off talking about
commercial, say, brokerage, butthe market as a whole, you know
there's a lot of competitionthere's, the deals are more
complex.
So, yeah, it's just we'reseeing an evolution, I think, in
(07:53):
the skill and quality andtechnical ability of the players
that are in the market I thinkyou spoke to it a little bit too
is you know?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
obviously there's not a lot of motivated sellers in
the market because, especiallyif they've owned it for you know
five or more years, they'vereally benefited from.
You know, occupancy's superhigh and rates have continued to
go.
But you know, and I think youcan look at all the data that
comes out, the RVEST Skylinereport is one that we've talked
(08:21):
on in a previous episode as well.
But it's kind of crazy to seesome of our vacancy rates
compared to the rest of thecountry and you know how would
you not want to take a look atthat as an investor outside?
But as far as rental rates andlike pricing that, you, how does
(08:42):
that?
How do you see that compared to?
You know, are there othermarkets similar out there that
are at our size?
Uh, that are seen?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
no, I I think we're higher.
I mean, I don't want to speakto that with any real confidence
because I don't do a lot ofbusiness in other markets, but
what we have seen from thecomments of clients that deal
with other markets and tenantsthat then occupy space in other
markets, they're usually prettysurprised, uh, at how expensive
real estate is in northwestharkins.
(09:10):
So you know the lease pricesfor new spaces.
I've had this comment, you know, periodically for 20 years I've
had some regional real estatedirector for you know company X
come into town, let's just callit like a fast food user and
they'll come into town.
They'll be like, okay, we needto buy a you know the best acre
(09:30):
lot.
I'm like, okay, well, that lotyou know, in 2008 was, uh, you
know, 20 bucks a foot and nowit's 40 bucks a butt.
But they would always andwhether, whatever year it's
been're like holy cow, man, likethat is a lot, like we couldn't
.
That's what it costs, you know,to buy enough.
You know rapidly growing suburbof dallas or you know right
(09:52):
outside of atlanta, like a big,mature market, like with with
really established demographics,like we can, we're not paying
that much in those markets andI've always just kind of like
look, man, I don't set theprices, I just try to help these
guys sell it.
Like, if you don't want it,there'll be somebody else that
buys it.
And you know you can't tellsomebody that, but the reality
(10:15):
is that's how our market expands.
It doesn't really matter to meif you're talking about
industrial or office or retailland.
You know there are users thatneed a location and those people
will show up and they're likegolly man, this is more than we
(10:37):
had expected to pay, but we'vegot.
Whatever this businessinitiative is, we need to get
that going, we, we need to getthat going.
We need real estate to get thatgoing, and so, gosh, we're
going to have to pay a littlebit of premium, but we'll do it.
Yeah.
And so the way our market'sgrown there's just been enough
of that that it keeps expanding,yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
We had Tom Allen on a while back and it's funny you
mention that because he saidkind of the same thing.
You know, obviously he does alot with uh miss hunt and mrs
hunt uh obviously has done a lothere in the pinnacle area and
uh, he mentioned kind of in alot of those meetings it's
beforehand, you know, thepreliminary, before they built
the buildings.
They're like we think we canget this, and then then they
(11:20):
build it, yeah, and they, youknow, end up throwing out some
what he would say are outrageousrates and they keep getting
leased up at these rates thatthey wouldn't have expected,
yeah, and so that just keepspressing up because it's in, you
know, especially in primelocations where there's a ton of
demand and not any supply.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah no, I listened to that episode and he's right.
And not any supply?
Yeah no, I listened to thatepisode and he's right.
I love Tom.
Tom's been a great friendthrough my career and he's right
.
But one thing I kind of want toclarify the way you said that.
You know it can sound tosomeone listening from the
outside in as though thedevelopers are making some wild
profit and the reality is Idon't think they are.
(12:01):
I mean the cost of construction.
You know the cost ofdevelopment, the cost of all
these layers that it takes toreally deliver a new building by
the time you do that and finishout the office space.
You know, I don't know whattheir rents are in the visionary
building, but call them.
I'll just say call them 40 bucksa foot.
Just for swag.
I should yell that number but Ihaven't checked them lately.
(12:22):
But call them 40 bucks a foot.
You know it's not like Ms Huntor Tom or the partners in that
building are making some giantwindfall.
I mean, they've taken a lot ofrisk to deliver those buildings
and sure they're making a return, but the real money is made on
the next flip of the lease.
(12:43):
You know, or at least that'swhat we've seen um right, but
yes, yeah, the market seems to.
The market complains a littlebit but it seems to absorb the
increasing prices.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, absolutely the equity has to be like you said.
You have these out-of-stateplayers that are coming into the
market that expect oh it'sarkansas, we can get these
prices, but it's similar toDallas or more.
But they have to be okaygetting that five-cap return
today.
If the equity is patient enough, then you just may get the type
of returns as a seven-cap buybecause your rents go up more
(13:17):
than what you expected.
But for the right peoplethey're okay making shorter
returns where it's almost a beton the future.
That, yes, I'll make it.
There's a lot more upside.
So if you buy right, you can, aslong as you're financing right,
you can pivot and save yourselfthere.
(13:37):
So I guess what I'm trying tosay is be okay not having those
high returns.
If you're really wanting to getin this market, then one,
you're getting the experience,you're in the deal, but also the
market may just be morefavorable five years down the
road.
Like you said, every year itseems like man, you want how
much and we are paying this much, but it just keeps continuing.
(13:58):
So it's hard to say that it'llcontinue at that pace.
But we'll see.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
I agree with you 100% .
And yeah, that is a riskystatement to say it'll continue
at that pace.
I mean, it kind of feels likeit it has been, Maybe it will
continue to.
But I agree with you 100%.
The people that have beenwilling to take the risk and go
ahead and buy deals where youknow the returns may not feel
great day one.
They've really been rewardedbecause the rents have grown
(14:26):
faster than they expected andyou know the comp prices have
grown faster than they expectedand so all of a sudden they find
themselves in you know, two orthree years.
They might have thought it wasgoing to be a 10-year hold, uh,
but they might find themselves.
You know.
What we've seen is you get twoor three or four years down the
road.
It's like holy cow.
This thing's gone up 20% and sowe're seeing some people sell.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And you mentioned it too development.
It seems like it's gottenharder to develop.
That's the thing you know.
That comes with, like you said,there's challenges on the
development period.
You have the negative interestperiod, the finance period,
where you don't have any rentersyet You're not fully leased.
(15:07):
So you you do have.
Your cost of construction isrising.
People who have this land thatwant high prices and now we're
having some infrastructure.
You know problems too, so it'snot, uh, a walk in the park to
develop no, it's not, and I madea comment earlier that I think
ties to this.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
I won't circle back to the words I was talking about
how there are.
With that said, there are somepeople that have owned these
properties for a long time andthey're like you know, it's
coming up a lot and it'sprobably going to go up more,
but I'm pretty happy with thisappreciation that I've seen.
So, yeah, I will go ahead andsell and, you know, good luck to
the buyer.
(15:39):
Hopefully he makes some money.
So there is a contingent ofpeople that are kind of, you
know, life changes or maybethey're retiring or maybe
they're moving or whatever.
Where we are seeing somesellers and I think some of them
it is because, you know, peopletalk about passive income in
real estate like it just doesn'texist.
I mean, unless you're investingas an LP partner, it does not
(16:01):
exist.
And I think people, even withreally high quality real estate
that has, you know, high qualityprofessional management, some
of them are like you know, I'drather just sell and, you know,
do something else with this cash.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I think there will always be that and you know,
like you said, there's alwaysgoing to be death, divorce.
You know the typical stuff inreal estate.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
One question I have for you, though.
When you're evaluating deals oryou're advising clients like
how do you, how are you, whatare some key metrics that you're
looking at?
For it's going to be overlysimplistic, but I like looking
at deals that are less than thecost to replace them.
So if you're looking at a Idon't know a flex warehouse
building like, I want to buy itfor less than it would cost to
build them.
So if you're looking at a Idon't know a flex warehouse
building like, I want to buy itfor less than it would cost to
build a new one.
Um, if you've got tenants inthere, I want them to be at a
rent amount where, if they leave, you're not really necessarily
(16:54):
upset about that.
You know you can go release thespace, yeah, um, and I, you
know you want it to be in a spotwhere you think there's well.
This is maybe ancillary to theother two, but I like to say you
know you want to put yourselfin a position to get lucky.
You know I like to have realestate.
That's a good location.
It's kind of the path of growth.
(17:15):
If it's got some problems, youknow you can deal with that, but
you price it in.
But generally the way I look atit and the way I advise clients
is like look, you know you wantto see yourself getting into
something that's you're gettinga basis that's less than the
cost you'd build and you want tohave a really clear path to,
you know, raising the rats andreleasing it if you lose a
tenant.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Absolutely so it sounds like understanding
replacement costs.
Number one is important, butalso maybe even vacancy rate is
something that you're lookingpretty well at.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Yeah, I would say, and there's not a great way to
answer this question.
If anybody tells you that theyknow, it is not telling the
truth.
You know if you're looking atbuying anything.
In my opinion I shouldn't saythe most, but I I mean, I think
one of the most important thingsis knowing what you can like.
Oh, your tenants that are inthere, what is the next turn of
(18:09):
the rental rates going to looklike?
What is the finish out that'sgoing to, you know, for you?
You've got the cost of turningapartments and you can kind of
define that pretty well.
Well, in an office building, youdon't know, a tenant may move
out and you might have to spend120 bucks a foot to remodel that
space.
So there's not a right or wronganswer.
But you have to have enoughmarket knowledge to be like to
(18:32):
have confidence that you canpredict what it will release for
what your likely you know refitcosts will be and what your
likely uh downtime will be.
Because when you put thosevariables in your financial
model, I mean it can swing itone way or the other, uh, in a
big way, and you know the otherpart of that is the other layer.
(18:52):
Then is, you know, noteverybody's cut out to play in
this game, because there's justa lot of risk.
Sometimes you may have a greatspace that just doesn't leach
for a long time.
Yeah, you just didn't get theright person.
There's some, you know, luckcan make you look like a genius
or a fool on some of these dealsyeah, absolutely, I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I think, uh, yeah, I, that's a great point.
I think it's easy for a lot ofus younger guys to look back or
look at, kind of.
You know a lot of these guysthat have owned, you know a lot
of property in Nolte, arkansasfor a long time.
You know you see the joke likethey bought it for three peanuts
and a raspberry and now they'regoing for six caps or less in
(19:35):
good areas but again it'sputting themselves in positions
where they can get lucky andright location.
You know the metrics make sense.
All that good stuff so it'seven buying it right on their
end.
I think is important.
One question, just as we wrapup this quick Market Insights
piece.
One question, just as we wrapup this quick Market Insights
piece as far as differentsections of the market
(19:58):
multifamily, office, industrial,any others what are you most
excited about in NorthwestArkansas moving?
Speaker 4 (20:05):
forward?
Well, that's a tough one toanswer.
I mean, the whole market isreally exciting.
I think it's going to befascinating to see.
It's funny I was listening toTyler Overstreet.
I was driving in here listeningto your episode that just
dropped.
He was talking about medical.
I think medical is going to bea major shift for all of us.
I don't think we recognize whatthe demand is.
(20:28):
It's going to take a while forthat demand to spin up, but it's
happening.
I think medical is going to bereally interesting.
Um, you know, the demand forclass a office continues to to
surprise people, uh, who Ishouldn't say I'm surprised, but
it, you know, everybody'spleased with how that just
continues to grow.
(20:48):
And so we do have this realtranche of class a office
buildings, which used to we hadone or two.
Well, now we've got some realclass a buildings and we're
coming online.
Um, which, and what's happenedthere is now we got a real class
b segment which is in the classc, like we're maturing as a
market.
(21:08):
So we have these differentclasses, different options.
So, you know, I think I'm justexcited to see different options
.
So, you know, I think I'm justexcited to see see us mature as
a market.
I mean, we do have a real classa office saying we got our
industrial.
If you look at our industrialbuildings, you know the
industrial buildings that arenow coming online are real class
a industrial buildings um.
So there's just an, there's anevolution that's going on.
(21:31):
Um, I you know, I think most ofit is probably not going to be
that exciting question.
I think I find the medicalparticularly exciting.
I think the retail um is uh,you know that it's hard to
develop retail, but we've gotsome, some cool properties
coming online.
Uh, you know we do.
(21:51):
I hate to plug our listings,necessarily, but we do a lot of
work with the high street guysand you know the work they're
doing around johnson, in themiddle of the street, is
fantastic.
You know there's a lot, the,the group that's working on
drake farms, you know there'ssome really exciting.
Uh, I guess the, the qualityand the, the mix of uses with
(22:11):
development, is fun to see thatcoming.
So I feel like I've kind oframbled a little bit.
No, I love that.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
There's a lot that's great, yeah, no, I love that.
I think I mean, like TylerOverstreet said, there's even a
lot of city changes that aregoing to be happening, and have
been happening even in the lastfive years, ten years, to kind
of accommodate the growth andkind of continue to do some
great things.
So I think there's a lot tounpack here on what we talked
(22:37):
about there and we're justthankful for your knowledge,
thankful for your time I knowit's valuable and just kind of
your insight on what you'reseeing in the market, what
you're excited about and wherecan listeners get to know you or
find you if they want to reachout Sure.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yeah well, no thanks for having for having.
I enjoy your show andappreciate you having me on, um
kind of enjoyed the visit.
Uh, yeah, we're so focuscommercial real estate.
We're pretty easy to find youjust google us.
But it's, it's focus, cre,groupcom and um, you know I've
said my entire career, we're nothard sell people.
So if somebody just wants totalk about commercial real
estate or or, you know, visit alittle bit, you know, feel free
(23:14):
to call and happy to meet andtalk about what's going on in
the market.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Awesome, pleasant Yep .
Well, glenn, we appreciate yourtime, as always, and we're
grateful for it.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
So yeah, thanks, guys .
Again, thank you guys fortuning in.
I'm going to go ahead and listsome sponsors off here.
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(23:46):
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(24:08):
Our next sponsor is AdvantageTitle and Escrow.
They're a local company.
They do great work,specifically Kayla Phillips.
I can speak personally on thissponsor because I use Kayla for
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It's been two, three, fouryears now and Kayla and I have
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We probably do between 65 to 80deals a year together and they
(24:32):
do a great job.
The SOPs, so systems andprocessing that they have over
Advantage Title is justincredible.
Clients love it.
They do a great job from startto end communicating.
When I give a deal to Advantage, title and escrow, I know that
it's going to be taken care of.
There's no second guessing.
I almost am able to treat themlike a second transaction
(24:53):
coordinator to my transactioncoordinator that I already have.
I know that they're going tohandle the systems and processes
correctly as an agent, as ahomeowner, as a buyer or seller.
They do an incredible job ofhandling a transaction and
communicating throughout theprocess.
They do a great job withcommunication, especially Kayla
Phillips over there.
I would highly encourage you ifyou're looking to close on a
(25:16):
home, buy a home, if you're anagent listening to use advantage
, title and escrow uh,specifically Kayla Phillips.
So you're going to reach Kaylabest at 5 0 1, 3, 5 8 1 6 0, 1.
Or you can email her kaylac-a-y-l-a at goadvantagetitlecom
(25:38):
advantage is a-d-v-a-n-t-a-g-e.
Titlecom banks are aboutcommunity, and century bank of
the ozarks has been yourcommunity bank for 131 years.
That's over a century since1894.
They've been helping neighborsbuild homes, grow businesses and
(26:00):
plan futures.
Because they're locally owned,your loan approval happens here,
not miles away.
Visit their locations inFayetteville and Mountain Home,
arkansas, as well as Gainesville, theodosia, bakersfield and Ava
, missouri.
Century Bank of the Ozarks.
Local bankers make localdecisions since 1894.
(26:21):
Member FDIC and Equal HousingLender.
If you enjoyed the show, makesure to give us a follow on your
favorite podcast platform soyou never miss an update.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Don't forget to connect with us on Instagram,
facebook and LinkedIn for morereal estate insights and behind
the scenes content.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I have a question you want us to cover, send it our
way and if you're interested insponsoring the show, visit
nwainvestingcom to get in touch.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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