September 22, 2025 • 60 mins
The spiritual journey from one faith tradition to another rarely follows a straight path. In this profound conversation, Abin AB takes us through his transition from Southern Baptist Christianity to Islam, revealing the unexpected turns and deep insights gained along the way.
Growing up in Middle Georgia, Abin's encounter with Muslim brothers at Pan-African events sparked curiosity that eventually led him to visit a mosque—an experience he describes as "one of the best experiences in my life." What followed was not an overnight transformation but a gradual process of adopting Islamic practices while navigating family relationships and personal habits. The challenging conversations with Christian parents, the struggle to give up alcohol, and the discipline required to pray five times daily all contributed to a deeper understanding of his new faith.
The heart of this discussion explores the relationship between Sunni orthodoxy and Sufi mysticism within Islam. Abin beautifully illustrates this connection: "It's almost like saying my body was made first and then my heart was made last." This metaphor captures the essence of how Sufism represents the inner spiritual dimension of Islamic practice rather than a separate tradition. Through detailed explanations of prayer beads (zikr), mantras, and the science behind these spiritual technologies, we gain insight into practices that help maintain positive thought patterns and spiritual accountability.
Perhaps most moving is Abin's description of the transformative power of Islamic prayer and the call to prayer (adhan), which he notes can "bring Christians to tears when they hear it for the first time." The discussion concludes with thoughtful explorations of Islamic customs, dress codes, and even polygamy—all explained with nuance that challenges Western misconceptions while honoring the wisdom within these traditions.
What deeper dimensions might your own spiritual practice contain? Listen, reflect, and consider how these insights might resonate with your own journey, regardless of your faith tradition.
NYPTALKSHOW EP.1 HOSTED BY RON BROWNLMT & MIKEY FEVER
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
what's going on?
What's going on out there.
Everybody is ron brown, lmt,the people's fitness
professional, aka soul brothernumber one.
Soul brother number one,reporting for duty.
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(00:34):
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Keep saying that, keepmarketing that.
When we first started this, wedidn't we kind of thought that
saying that all the time wascorny.
We kind of thought that sayingthat all the time was corny.
We thought we were too cool tosay that stuff.
But you know, that's some NewYork bull crap, right?
So you know.
(00:54):
So now we are humble.
We are humble.
You know we're trying to buildthis platform bigger and bigger
and better.
You know we're in a studio nowwe're in to build this platform
bigger and bigger and better.
You know we're in a studio now.
We're in a podcast studio.
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(01:14):
be in person in the future.
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Help us out.
Peace Abin AB.
(01:35):
The Light really appreciate youcoming on this evening.
Tonight we're talking aboutIslam, sunni to Sufi.
I have a lot of questions inregards to Islam.
Sufi to Sunni to Sufi.
I have a lot of questions inregards to Islam, given my
background, so let's take itaway.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I'm ready man.
Essentially, islam being thatthird part of the Abrahamic
triangle that everybody somewhatknows about but is kind of
poorly misunderstood over herein the West.
Sufism not to get too far aheadis what people call it.
(02:13):
It's interdimensions.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
One second Before you do that.
I don't mean to cut you off, butthere's a there's a, there's a
NYP tradition we do here, ben,you know how we interview here,
right, abin?
If you're on, if you're on, ifyou're checking out the, if
you're on the chat right now,say yes, tell me, give me a one
or something.
So the way we traditionallyinterview is we ask a person you
(02:39):
know how did they come up?
Like, how, what was your startin Islam?
Or where did you grow up?
And then we take people throughthat journey.
So so, where were you born andraised and did you start off
Christian or Islamic?
Do you come from an Islamicfamily?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I tell you where I was born and raised, you'll
probably automatically assumewhat I grew up as like right in
the middle of Georgia, middleGeorgia.
Assume what I grew up as likeright in the middle of Georgia,
middle Georgia.
So definitely a Christian, and,not to joke about it, but a
Southern Baptist Christian atthat.
And so we lived that lifestylefor what 20, say about?
Like 21 to 25 years or so.
(03:18):
But that 21 to 25 year mark waskind of not even gonna lie, it
was kind of great.
It started to kind of walk awayfrom the church at that point
and you know, might've gotteninto a few things that might've
been that healthy for me orbeneficial for my future and
whatnot.
And I kept bumping into thesetwo brothers and a wife at these
(03:38):
Pan-African events for kind ofcoming into Islam, brother
Dawood and Brother Nafisa Alifrom what we say the best place
to be, mohammed Mosque number 93, right here in Macon, georgia.
But I kept bumping into them atPan-African festivals and
things like that.
And you know, I think mybrother could smell a little
(04:01):
alcohol on me from back then.
You know it was a thing, but no, I didn't.
And some of the things he wassaying like typical, trying to
invite you to the masjid paperbean pie and whatnot but he
would always hit me withsomething like I've been through
what you're going through, butI know where you're at right now
(04:22):
.
It ain't no fun being there Igot cleaned up from all that.
When I came into this he wouldtalk to me like that after the
typical introduction and Ialmost denied him three times,
like Jesus and Judas right,until that third time, peace
Actually wound up going to themosque with him and it was
(04:43):
probably one of the bestexperiences in my life at that
point because I had never Inever entered one and never seen
or know anything about it otherthan you know Malcolm X and
whatnot growing up.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Okay, so let's take it.
Let's, let's rewind.
So, uh, you grew up in a uh uhparent household mother and
father, two parent household.
Mother and father, two parenthousehold.
Grew up in a two parenthousehold.
You guys, your parents, raisedyou on, raised you in a Baptist
church.
Okay, Then you get into Islam.
(05:15):
What was your parents reactionto you getting into Islam?
Breaking up a little bit, bro.
You're breaking up your wifi isa little it was a fun
(05:38):
experience.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Wait, you still breaking up, bro.
I'm glad I can laugh at it nowand look back at something that
we all done, kind of grownthrough.
You hear me you still breakingup, bro.
I'm glad I can laugh at it now,you know, and then look back at
something that we we all donekind of grown through.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
You hear me you're breaking up.
Okay, now we're better.
Now I think we're back on trackjust a moment is this excuse me
y'all.
Y'all know technicaldifficulties.
That's how the internet is.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I can look back at it and kind of laugh at it now
from the ones and zeros man.
Sometimes the ones and zerosget flipped around and go hey
why.
But we both kind of learnedfrom the experience because it
was kind of alien for them atfirst, right To see, just be
able to dress differently, prayindifferently.
And I learned another languageand now my views about Jesus are
(06:35):
slightly different and eventhough it's slightly different,
that's more than enough to kindof put this big divide between a
primarily Christian family andthe only Muslim person in the
family at all.
So a lot of it just came from,you know, not understanding and
it being the first time somebodycomes around them like that,
(06:57):
and then it also being arelative that was raised up in
the church, I figured theyprobably had a lot of questions.
What made you want to leave?
Do you not believe in Jesus?
No more Stuff like that pops up.
Some of those questions I wouldhave looked at as hard
questions back then, which someof them I did look at as hard
questions.
I'm glad we had them nowbecause we have a better
(07:20):
understanding.
Muslims don't not like Jesus.
Muslims, you won't never catcha Muslim disrespecting you know,
because in order to be a Muslim, do you have to believe in
Allah, the books, the messengersthat Allah sent.
Allah sent Muhammad and Jesus,right, so you can't leave either
of the two out.
And little stuff like that isthings that they didn't know
(07:41):
about Islam.
So giving little nuggets likethat along the way kind of led
me like okay, so he's stillpraying more, that's good.
He ain't hanging out withso-and-so in the past anymore,
that's good Dang.
He is changing.
Nah, brother, I can't give upthat part, though it took some
time for them to grow into thechange and notice I'm different
(08:03):
and definitely better than who Iwas to where.
I'm not going to say I didn'tfeel accepted then, but now
they're a lot more comfortablewith you.
Know what this system is?
Uh, has allowed me to becomecompared to you.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Know where I was Now you know, um, um, oh, your mom
and dad still together.
Yeah, that's peace.
So now I just want to say thisreal quick Just as you know,
when I'm on these podcasts, mything is I'm going to be myself,
(08:37):
regardless of whom or what,whether I'm on the podcast or
not on the podcast.
But you made reference to, youknow, when you got into Islam,
your parents noticed that.
You know you changed.
Now here's the thing with mewhen I got into the 5% teachings
and the lessons and things likethat, and you know, I was told
(09:00):
I was God and I started tointernalize that because I
wasn't brought into theteachings right in exact the
proper way.
What it did was it made me anegomaniac going in.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
you know what I'm saying, you know so probably one
of my parents had thosefeelings because I was.
Initially it was.
It was a hard shift, you know,and it took me a while to grow
into understanding to then beable to explain it to him, you
know, so I see where you'recoming from that right, right,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So now did you have an email?
So you, yeah, you did.
You had a mentor that helpedyou through the process, right,
so?
So, um, when you got introducedto this, you spoke to your
family about it.
They noticed the change.
What else changed in your life,was it?
I mean, how did you deal withthe alcoholism?
(09:58):
I don't know if you werealcoholic, but I mean you were
drinking at that time.
But how did you just cut coldturkey?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh, I definitely tried, Definitely tried, but it
was.
It's a, it's a process, almostkind of with like, uh, uh,
giving up certain foods.
It's a, it's a process.
And then, uh, the learning ofthe five daily prayers is a
process too.
So, you know, as soon as youcome in and take your shahada,
they'll expect for you to allright, brother, no more baking,
no more alcohol, no moregambling, no more women.
(10:27):
And you know it's a processbecause Islam consists of a
large corpus of applicable andpragmatic knowledge.
So they can't hit somebody withthat all at once, because it
could be overwhelming.
Right, it was a motivationalprocess to slowly but surely
stop.
You know, get stronger with.
No, I don't need any of that.
(10:47):
Let me get 20 on, pump five,and then you know it's gone on
with the rest of the day.
But that time, 10 years prior,it might have been a little more
difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Got you.
So now you stop drinking andyou know there was a gradual
process, right?
What age was this?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
there was a gradual process, right?
What age was this?
This was that same kind of akind of gray area, that 21 25
year old time frame.
Because you know, I'm kind ofout of the church at that point,
I'm kind of trying to figurestuff out.
But you know, I don't have aspiritual base at that moment at
all, not during that time frame.
So it wasn't really an ethicalor moral system or uh, but
wasn't upholding the dietarylaws or anything.
So it wasn't um, to me backthen I guess it wasn't a bad
(11:30):
thing, you know, as long as youdon't get messed up.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
But right, okay.
So now, okay, when did you?
When do you say you would?
You were officially rooted inislam, where you were praying
five times, five times a day.
You were officially rooted inIslam where you were praying
five times a day.
You were reading the Quran,dealing with the Hadiths.
You were entrenched in theteachings, in the religion.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I'm about late 20s, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32.
I was pretty heavy into theorthodoxy during those years and
that's when I got the help fromthe imam, saw me reading this
huge Quran book, but obviously Ican't read Arabic at that point
because I'm admiring thebeautiful calligraphy and stuff.
And he asked me I'm like no, Ijust took shahad a couple months
(12:19):
ago, I can't read it.
And he offered to teach meArabic.
We would meet like Tuesdays andthursdays at like 9 to 10 or 9
to 10, 30 or so, basic, uh,letter recognition, individual
letters, how to pronounce theletters and then how to connect
them that's a different scienceand how to recognize them as
(12:41):
words.
So another process still stillbecause Arabic's tough.
But what I can say is hementioned something that I still
feel to this day that learninga new language is almost like it
rewires certain neurons in yourmind.
Oh yeah, if you would havelived my whole life and not
attempt to learn a new language,there are certain neural
(13:02):
connections that would havenever connected with me having
to learn that language and thoseconnections allowed things to
happen up here that would havenever been able to happen if I
wouldn't have stretched thattensile ability and made a
connection.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
He had a Prophet Muhammad moment.
Ron, when Jabril said to readand he was an illiterate, he
said I can't read.
He said look at the paper, justkeep reading.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So that sounds.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I understand what you're saying when it reconnects
with your brain because, youknow, here in the Western world
we're so accustomed to readingfrom left to right, and from
there it's right to left, whichalso, you know, changes the
sequence of things, how we viewthings.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I understand where you're coming from.
I think we're all about in thesame age group, weren't we in
elementary and middle schoolwhen, all of a sudden, cursive
just went away?
They stopped teaching cursive.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
A generation after us might not be able to write
cursive.
That's kind of a similar systemof connecting letters
recognizing an individual, andnow you can darn decipher what
you want from one language toanother because you can write it
in a different form, Right.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So now, okay, now you're entrenched.
Now, what about?
I'm speaking for myself.
I mean, as a man growing up,women were important to me.
I'm sure women were importantto Mikey Fever Right Hell yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I see why you're going to die with your foot.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So now, now, now you're twenty one, twenty two,
twenty five, thirty, like atthis time in your life, you, you
, you understand how to talk togirls, talk to women, talk to
women, get them, get the number,you know what I mean, and have
a relationship and things likethat.
How was that piece in your lifedealing with Islam?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
It did change a little bit.
The type of woman that I mighthave an interest in definitely
wound up changing, definitelyone that has a little bit more
class and culture about herself.
Ain't nothing wrong with havingfun every now and then, but not
one that's for the streets.
Just because you look good,there might have been a certain
(15:23):
type that would have went afterbefore Islam, but after the fact
it's like she's fine now.
Yeah for sure, for sure.
You use the ethics and morals ofthe system to immediately apply
and be like I don't thinkthat'll work.
Now she's super Christian, oryou know.
(15:46):
No, she dresses in a way that Ican't take her home to my folks
dressed like that or no.
She listened to a bunch ofdebaucherous music and she acts
like the females in the musicvideos, like not to talk about
ourselves, you know.
But you know you start to lookdifferently and you start to
care about things and thisperson you're going to try to,
you know, have something with,because if it works, then you
(16:08):
know it works, and if you thinkyou made a mistake a couple of
years in, you can't get thattime back, right For sure.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So now that the great , great answer.
So now.
So what were you doing?
Were you dating just mainlyMuslim women?
And how does the dating processgo?
Because I know how the Nationof Islam does it Like you have
to court a woman.
You know you guys have toreally get to know each other.
It's like almost a military.
(16:35):
The way they come together iswhat they do in the Nation of
Islam.
In terms of relationships, itis phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
It's phenomenal, it's all mental, it's spiritually
mental.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Your knowledge base, your will and not only that,
everybody, they kind of comearound them, they help them.
You know what I'm saying.
So how is it the same way inour Islam?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That goes back to indigenous stuff.
With our Islam it's structured,kind of similar.
Let's say, if there was a cutegirl in the mosque, what am I
looking at girls in the mosquefor?
But there's a cute girl in thatcommunity that comes to the
imam and, you know, tell theimam about my interest.
You know, let me know of a goodway to go about doing it.
Maybe speak to her dad orapproach her after prayer, or
(17:23):
the imam might set up a meetingbetween me and the parents.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Almost the same type of structure Hold on.
This is how it's supposed to go, right here, do you understand?
If we all did this, we wouldavoid a lot of nonsense.
Facts I was thinking the samething too.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was thinking the same thing too.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Essentially, what's happening is they're looking at
both sides, like, how is thispotential male structure, how is
this potential female structure?
Like, are they really living upto the principles?
Okay, so if they want to go ona date something like I remember
the imam told me a story aboutthat A couple kind of came
(18:03):
together into the masjid andthey went out to eat at
Applebee's.
They're over on one side ofApplebee's but the imam's on the
other side at a table facingthem directly, completely out of
sight.
They know he's there but theycan't see him.
So they're just in the moment.
But they have to, let's justsay, behave.
They have to remain uprightwhile they're out in public,
(18:26):
with whatever kind of interestthey might have with each other.
And the imam looks at thosethings and almost seems like the
same you're saying the nation.
They have the same structure.
Are they going to represent us?
Like we need to be representedout here in public and society
Got you so now we spoke on thatpiece Now, sunni and Sufi, what
(18:52):
are the differences?
I'll say Sufism is just like theinner dimension or the more
spiritual traditions.
I don't know if they hear thenoise in the background, but one
of the main practices is what'scalled zikr and sufism, which
is what we understand as mantrasover here in the West, a
(19:13):
similar spiritual system.
It's also done in the mosque.
Right, this concept is done inthe mosque, but it's I won't say
it's strict or rigid, but it'sstructured right.
There's a hadith of ProphetMuhammad would recite this
particular pasbih or thisparticular sikr, this particular
(19:34):
mantra, after prayer.
So it's customary allthroughout the mosque.
Everybody does these thingsthat Prophet Muhammad did like,
try to emulate them to the T anddon't go anywhere further past
that.
But with sufism, with it beinga little bit more on the inner
tradition, uh, it kind of putsyou in the mindset of what
(19:54):
christian gnosticism is.
Okay yeah I put it all up in awhole as soon as I'm kind of
like what christian gnosticismis essentially?
Uh, the system of kabbalah wehave Abjad, the same
alphanumeric system of slackersand repeating numbers and
whatnot.
But with Sufism, with that sameconcept of repetitive prayers
(20:17):
or mantras and whatnot, weunderstand that Hadith about the
Prophet Muhammad doing this oneparticular mantra.
After prayer he repeatsSubhanAllah 33 times and
Alhamdulillah 33 times.
33, right, and La ilahaillallah 33 times to equal up to
99.
That equals 99 names of Allah.
(20:37):
So now you're perfectly in linewith this tradition,
alhamdulillah.
But then Sufi will look a littlebit deeper into the Quran, a
little bit deeper intotraditions, still keeping the
same concept, right.
But we'll remember and see likenow Quran Allah did say Innala
hawa malaykutu fuyusilum ar-lan,nabi ya'ari wa aladina wa
(21:00):
al-manu sali wa alayhi wa salimutasliman Subtitles Verily,
allah and his angels sendblessings upon the prophet, send
blessings or send prayers,prayer beads.
So, oh, you who believe, sendprayers, peace and blessings
upon him in abundance.
So that Quran verse saying todo that same thing, take the
(21:23):
same concept, but do it inabundance.
Nothing wrong with that.
33 times, three repetition.
But We'll take that sameconcept and go deeper.
Let's say that alphanumericsystem.
If you take the Bismillah orRahman Rahim in the beginning of
(21:43):
the Quran and you turn thoseletters into numbers, the
numerical formula is 786.
In Saudi Arabia it's 787.
In North Africa, west Africa,so a person would take a
particular mantra and wouldliterally sit and repeat it that
(22:03):
particular number of times Toequal up to the number of
Bismillah Rahman, rahim.
So some alchemy going on withthat.
It's a wonderful science of themind because that structure you
get in the mosque, it opens youup to it.
But the inner wisdom, thespiritual practices and some of
(22:27):
the deepest stuff you get fromSufism opens the mind and the
heart a little bit more.
Because I like to look at thisfrom the science of the mind
perspective to explain it tofolks, especially here in the
South, and like imaginelistening to this song on the
radio that repeats all thesenegative things over and over
and over and over.
The chorus of that song isrepetitive.
(22:48):
So now you repeat that samething again, with a different
pitch or tone in the chorus, acertain number of times, over
and over and over and over.
And if I look at a certain sideof town, the society over there,
not to talk about my people.
But it's not that good overthere.
It's on the mind that's beingproduced in that society.
But if a person would sit andit doesn't have to be it's got
(23:13):
to be a prayer.
There's certain songs I hearthat you don't have to talk
about robbing, killing, stealingand whatnot, but let's just say
repeating a short prayer overand over.
What the person's doing is.
They're not allowing their mindto focus on anything negative
at all.
They're repeating the prayerover and over and over and over.
(23:33):
Peace to the God.
And keeping that positivethought in the mind doesn't
allow the mind to think ofanything negative.
It won't allow it to even thinkabout kicking in nobody door
all the other stuff that getstalked about on the radio at all
and it keeps those channelsopen for some of the more
spiritual traditions to tap in.
(23:54):
Like they say, you open themind of the higher spiritual
realities.
Wisdom from higher spiritualrealities will get poured onto
you from Allah.
But if my mind is befuddledwith you know, niggas, you know
I ain't gonna hear Allah talkingto me.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Got you, so now yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
So now, when we say, when yousay the word Sunni and you say
the word Sufi, would you happento know the actual definition of
the two?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Sunni.
It'll come from this Arabicword that is ascribed to the
Prophet Muhammad Sunnah.
His Sunnah is like what we werejust talking about the things
he did, his ways of life, hisways of being, some of the
things he said, some of thethings he might have done,
spiritual practices and whatnot.
So the Muslims used those toemulate the prophet.
(24:53):
They called themselves theSunni.
So that's where the name of Lipcomes in.
At Sufi, to keep that a littlebit shorter, they say Sufi comes
from the word wool becausethere were some companions of
the Prophet Muhammad that wouldstudy in the inner traditions
(25:14):
with him, that would sit onoutside of the Prophet's mosque
on this bench doing theirspiritual practices, repeating
their prayers over and over,while everybody else was praying
Message.
But those people would besitting outside wearing their
wool garments.
So they say that's where theword Suf comes from.
But remember that Kabbalahconnection.
(25:36):
Suf is linguistic, it connectsto Sophia, same thing on the
Greek side.
So Sufi and Sophia, it's divinewisdom.
On the feminine side, it's reallife, sophia, that's that.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Oh, wow, so you're connecting it.
That's peace.
Oh man, we're getting deep.
All right, so now I spoke tothis brother on a plane last
week and he says said Sufismcame after Sunni.
So you know, so was he correct.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That's almost like saying my body was made first
and then my heart was made last.
But we all know the heart wasmade first.
Without the inner tradition andthe inner wisdom, there can't
be an exterior form at all.
This thing was created from thething on the inside.
Can't nobody see it?
It created this around itselffor protection.
So that's just like ignoringthe thing on the inside.
(26:41):
I don't see it like that.
So would you say that just likeignoring the thing on the
inside?
You know, with, with you know I, I don't.
I don't see it like that.
So would you say century, youright on you, right on, he said
hey century, that's the thebeginning of the golden age.
But you know, you and you bothknow where they were at during
that timeframe.
Right, there was only onepriesthood that could have given
(27:07):
them the wisdom that would leadto this, uh, this golden age.
Yeah, uh, what we call Sufismtoday.
So the, the inner tradition,already existed before then.
Uh, true enough, cause there'salways been some types of
societies.
But as far as uh Islam goes,sufism did kind of get birthed.
Uh, sufism did kind of getbirthed and then Islam got
(27:27):
wrapped around it.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That's the safe way to say it uh, oh, time out that,
sorry, I'm going to send thisto the brother later.
He's going to go, hmm, so,alright, so you broke down
Sufism, you broke down Sunni.
So let's say I'm a newborn, soto speak, or, you know, a new,
(27:48):
new follower, or what have you.
And, uh, you know, I wanted toget into, uh, islam, right, and
I want to get, I want to gostraight to Sufism.
Is that is that?
Are there any prerequisites?
Do you have to go Sunni beforeit goes Sufi?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
And what are the differences in the lines?
It is recommended to have abase.
My shake shake off from theObama from Senegal had a short
aphorism.
He says you have to get intothe boat of the Sharia before
you get into the ocean of theHakiqat.
And getting into the boat ofthe Sharia you know the vessel
that will take you, but theSharia is your do's and don'ts.
(28:32):
You know the Islamic law how topray, fasting and Ramadan and
things like that.
So it's a good thing to have atleast a basic understanding of
it so that it can be applied,because if a person goes and
gets in the ocean withoutgetting in the boat, they're
liable to drown.
I'm not too sure how deep thatwater is.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Okay, okay.
So what are the differences?
In the lines like, as far asthe practice is concerned?
So Sufis and Sunnis, they prayfive times a day, okay, okay.
And the Sufis and Sunnis, theypray five times a day, okay,
okay.
And the Ramadan?
Of course, everyone doesRamadan.
(29:13):
So what are the actualdifferences?
When I go into the mosque,where do the Sunnis go and where
do the Sufis go?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, that's a nice question.
I like that.
I really like that, becauseobviously you won't be able to
tell which one is a Sufi and themosque or not.
I'm lying, possibly so.
Or if you see some in themosque with prayer beads that
have extra beads on strings onthe end.
(29:45):
It's essentially kind of likean abacus.
So if I'm going to do 787prayers it's 100 beads on here.
I know if I move seven of thesedown and I can mark 50 right
here, which means 30 is abouthalfway between this bead and
(30:05):
that bead.
I know right where to stop atto hit that exact number.
But that's a science that isnot really talked about or done
much in the mosque.
But you might catch somebodywith a pair of beads on that
might have some extra counterson the end.
And if you I almost faced theline with Lath and have them in
the prayer over with just to seewhat's up.
(30:27):
Or some that do the henna inthe beard that particular
tradition has been going on eversince Ramsey the second, so
that even ain't, but that'sanother kind of a sign you might
be able to tell okay.
Okay, leather belts around likea cummerbund style.
(30:52):
Might look kind of odd to see amale wearing like one of these
long draping of, but they havethis big, thick leather belt
wrapped around the midsection.
Other than that, they just looklike everybody else in the
mosque.
But it's just little stuff thatif you notice you can be like
yeah, he'd be, like he wassaying.
(31:13):
Both Sunnis and both Sufis prayfive times a day.
Do the Hajj in their lifetime,if they can.
They fast in Ramadan, they payZakat or charity and observe all
the pillars of the Orthodox.
Do they fast in Ramadan, theypay zakat or charity and I'm
sorry about all the things thatthe Orthodox do.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
There's just additional things that the
Orthodox might not do, that youmight get some soupies doing.
Okay, Now the call to prayer.
Years ago, I had anorganization called the
universal indigo children and wewould hold our meetings and all
our like youth programs at aMuslim school and we would be
(32:05):
around Muslims all day and wewould always hear the call to
prayer.
And the call to prayer for meis so it's like the most
beautiful sound you could everhear.
Right, what are they actuallysaying during the call to prayer
?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Good one.
It's actually the same thing,repeated a couple of times, but
you'll hear Allah Hu Akbar,allah Hu Akbar, because God is
the greatest, god is thegreatest.
And then it's repeated againAllah Hu Akbar, allah Hu Akbar.
God is the greatest, god is thegreatest.
That's my bad witness.
(32:48):
There is no God but Allah.
And then it's repeated again.
I bear witness that there is noGod but Allah.
I bear witness that Muhammad isthe messenger of Allah, and
that's repeated twice againMessenger of Allah.
And that's repeated twice again.
(33:08):
The second half of calling isHayya al-Salah, which is Hayya
means come to Salah, come toSalah, come to prayer.
That's repeated twice.
Hayya al-Salah, come to yoursuccess.
Salah rhymes with Salah, butFilah with the F means success.
(33:29):
It's repeated twice again andAllahu Akbar, allahu Akbar, god
is the greatest, god is thegreatest.
La ilaha illallah.
So it's beautiful, especiallywhen it's done.
They don't like to call it asong, but when it's done, they
don't like to call it a song,but when it's done melodically,
you know, with the inflectionsand whatnot, I don't know what
(33:51):
it is about it, man.
It brings Christians to tearswhen they hear it for the first
time.
It really, really, really hits.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
It hits man, it hits hard.
All I can add is that thescientific aspect of it because
you know, I said this beforelike the body is, you know,
consuming mostly of water, it'sbuilt the most so when those
sounds resonate, it goes throughyour body.
You vibrate higher.
It's etching to you as you sayit moves you to tears it lifts.
It lifts up your spirit andit's beautiful when they do the
call and every everyone is.
It's like how the church tollsthe bell at noon or at three
(34:23):
o'clock the sound goes through.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And he says man, that's where this tradition came
from, because the Muslimsneeded a way to call themselves
to the mosque, but they didn'twant to use traditions that were
from places where they camefrom Right.
They didn't want to call peopleto the mosque with the bells or
from the bell tower or the waythe Christians and Jews did.
So the adhan wound up beingused to kind of be a
(34:56):
distinguishing factor betweenyou know all the parts of the
Abrahamic triangle.
At that point in time, nothingto say nothing wrong with the
bells and stuff, because youknow what it did with the bells
over here.
But, yeah, at a time, that atime, it's different and you
know, even even as a Sufi, itwas still doing the same thing.
I remember my first Ramadan,maybe a year or two, in the
study of Sufism, no matter whatkind of deep wisdom or you know
what kind of deep teachers, oryou know Chris O'Terry and all
(35:23):
of who we're getting into, it'sstill it's the Psalms 133 moment
, for real, because you, youknow that there are two people
beside you, right, but there'srows and rows and rows and rows
of brothers behind you, to theleft, to the right, in front,
everywhere, and everybody is onthe same accord, focused on the
same thing man, you said thatsong 133, that's dope, I like
(35:47):
when you went.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
It's okay, I got you right.
I see, I see where you're goingwith that, but yeah, it is
multiple passports, exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
I remember something happening during the orthodox
time frame, to kind of make it,you know, bring it all together
during Ramadan, during theOrthodox time frame.
I remember hearing a brotherbehind me 10-15 minutes into
this prayer, because thoseRamadan prayers are real, real
long, so you're going to bestanding for a long time in
between praying and bowing.
(36:21):
So 10-15 minutes in we doneprayed and bowed and prostrated
once and stand back up.
Now it's another section of theQuran that's going to get
recited.
Sometimes people have somethingon them or they're going
through something.
So when this verse hits all of asudden man did the tears just
start to fall?
And that was my first.
People have something on themor they're going through
something.
So when this verse hits all ofa sudden man, the fear just
started to fall.
And that was my first timeexperiencing that.
(36:41):
Like is this brother behind me?
Focus on the prayer?
But I can't help but to hearlike brother just touched right
now man, Like wow, Like thatnever happened to me when I was
in the church, Like I ain'tnever caught the Holy Ghost or
nothing Like that.
That never happened to me when Iwas in the church Like I never
caught the Holy Ghost or nothinglike that never happened.
(37:03):
But a few years later, that sameexperience.
Yeah, that's saying something.
But that same experiencehappened a couple of years later
in the mosque.
I got to study in Sufism,sitting there praying what?
30 or 40 minutes into thisparticular prayer, the imam gets
to a certain section of thesecond chapter of the Quran that
I had memorized at that pointin time.
So everything that was leadingup to it I could pick pieces out
(37:25):
, you know, I could, you know,put together.
You know what's going on in thestory, because I wasn't good
with it when he got to verse 285and 286, I was the dude behind
somebody that was crying andcouldn't hold it in.
I honestly can't even explainwhat made it start.
It was like I know that, I knowthat my subconscious had the
(37:50):
Arabic over here and the Englishright here, while the imam was
saying it on the loudspeaker inthat same tone and couldn't hold
it in, your mom was saying iton the loudspeaker in that same
tone and you just couldn't holdit in.
No more man, stuff like that'slife-changing.
So, regardless of what peoplebelieve, experience, another
tradition or a culture here.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
It's the tonality of it.
Like you mentioned, with Sufism, it mostly focused on the
metaphysical, mystical side ofIslam as you put it right.
So that experience you had.
It's the tonality, therecitation of the certain surahs
, as you put it, or certain, asyou say, mantras.
(38:32):
How about the aspect of, withpurification, like what's it
called fana, that's?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
how about the aspect of um with purification, like
the, what's it called Fana?
I said, uh, well, that Fana,that Fana really is a Sufi, uh,
metaphysical teaching, uh, thepurification, uh, the, the, the
Wudu, the washing of the hands.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
A lot of those um, a lot of those, I hate to say,
like the core parts of thetradition.
They never go anywhere.
So if I was sitting and I mighthave ate something, I shouldn't
have ate and had a little bitof gas.
There's a tradition where if aperson releases gas, then that
breaks their voodoo.
(39:12):
They then get up and go maketheir voodoo again so that
they're in a state of ritualpurity.
They then get up and go maketheir wudu again, so that
they're in a state of ritualpurity.
Just in case, you know, prayercomes up, you know, or something
might hit you and you mightwant to go do a voluntary prayer
.
You just might want to go talkto allah yourself, but you're a
little soiled, you know.
So it's good to go through thatritual purity.
Same thing from sunniism toSufism.
(39:35):
Some traditions might, whatseems like, take it and kind of
run with it, because some ofthese traditions are African
traditions, but the basics of itis still there Washing your
hands three times, from thehands up to the elbows, three
times the forehead, ears, nose,washing out the mouth behind the
(39:57):
neck and the feet.
So water is essentially touchingall of the spots of the body.
That's going to touch theprayer rug.
So water over my hands becauseI'm going to go down like this.
My hands are going to touch theprayer rug.
Face, nose, forehead is goingto touch the prayer rug.
Some kind of frown againstputting your elbow on the prayer
(40:18):
rug.
Some kind of frown againstputting your elbow on the prayer
rug and lift it up a little bit.
They tell you not to sit like adog, so don't put your elbow on
, but still your elbow is goingto be resting on your knees or
on your thighs.
So every part of you that'seither touching a part of you
that's touching the part of theprayer rug has to be in ritual
purification.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Can I touching a part of you that's touching the part
of the prayer rug has to be inritual purification.
Being that you went throughsunni orthodox islam, why is it
that some people tend to look atsufism as not the purest form
of islam?
Because I have heard thatthey're like well, that's.
That's not Islam.
It's the best way to go Sunni.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Why is that?
I've never heard that one.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I've heard people say they don't practice that.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
They're like oh, it's better to go this.
You know, some of the practicescan be looked at as what they
call binda in Islam, and bindais innovation, like something
that's done extra or on top, orsomething that we know the
prophet didn't do.
But taking the small thing and,you know, blowing it up, like
that concept of doing yourmantra 99 times versus doing a
(41:28):
mantra 787 times, it's still thesame practice.
Some can get and I can onlyspeak for myself because I was
there to get so caught up in thetradition, right the way that
anything else outside of thattradition is not only alien,
it's just almost like it couldbe damaging to the tradition.
If too many other people get toit, people will start to look
(41:50):
at this spiritual tradition orthis spiritual practice Dang,
that brother got some niceprayer beads or what's that?
Juju pouch around thatbrother's neck, certain things
like that.
They'll look at like, no,that's not Islam.
Then again, a lot of thosetraditions, fortunately, can be
found in the histories and thetraditions.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Now let me ask you this being that this platform
has got Moors, you got fivepercenters on here.
We have everything.
So in the eyes of someone inIslam let's say, your brothers
and your mosque and things likethat are other people in what
(42:33):
they would say Islam.
They would say Islam.
Would that be regarded as youknow what?
Do they call it infidels, orthe K word Kufar.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yes, disbelief, kufar is almost like the religious N
word.
In that case, right, as much asI hate to say it, there's
people like that that do existout there that will look at the
NOI.
They will look at the MorrisHigh's temple as Uphar or
(43:10):
Capra's and really stand on it.
They'll go cherry-picking andpulling Hadith to verify what
and why.
On the opposite side, I mightbe doing the same thing to
defend them, because they'restill saying that there's still
tradition, just a wisdom thatcan be pulled.
They'll verify the things thatare going on today.
(43:32):
Right, like the.
How they say Muhammad the lastand final prophet.
The Arabic word for and is notin that statement.
Like how they say Muhammad'sthe last and final prophet.
The Arabic word for and is notin that statement.
Fatim will not be in at all.
It's not.
Fatim is literally a seal, likea stamp.
(43:53):
The caliph would wear a ringwith his signet on it.
The ruler at the time wouldwear a ring with his signet on
it.
The ruler at the time wouldwear a ring with his signet on
it, that particular seal, or aseal as in.
You take the concept of a magicsquare and each of the squares
are a prophet from a particularAbrahamic tradition and the
(44:15):
prophet Muhammad is in themiddle of that magic square, the
seal.
So all of the prophets thatcame before were culminated in
his example.
So when they say seal in Englishit can be left blank and bare
bones.
But when we look at that wordfrom an Arabic perspective, that
(44:35):
language is so deep I have tokeep a lexicon, a couple
translation tools and adictionary open at times,
because sometimes words can beso long with multiple letters
you got to know how to break itapart, to see its constituent
parts, to even know what it says, before putting it back
together again.
But the same thing with Qatun.
It doesn't mean last and finalat all.
(44:56):
It kind of means the collectiveseal of the essence of all of
the other prophets are sealedwithin this one.
And then the example that hecame and left.
So a Sufi might understand that.
But if I were to say that to aMuslim, no, we'd be arguing
right now or he'd be arguing,because I don't want to argue
(45:18):
with him.
I won't right now.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
what about also?
Um, I was watching, uh, jessepeters speak to a muslim on his
platform, a muslim woman, andshe said, uh, he said he, he
doesn't want to be a Muslimbecause Muslims, you know, they
want to dominate the world.
That's the focus.
So, and then the woman said youknow what?
(45:43):
I can't deny that, that's thetruth.
So how would you say?
What would you think?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
That particular woman might want to dominate the
world, but the thing is she'sthe only one person, but for the
most part, man, Muslims eitherA want to be left alone because
we go through so much as it is,regardless of what community we
come from.
If you say you're a Muslim in acertain side of the town right
here, you're going to get lookedat different by the other skin
(46:10):
complexion.
I don't understand why a personwould not want to be we don't
want to take over the world.
We might not want to be.
We don't want to take over theworld.
We might even want to be leftalone, or we want to have our
own community outside of all themess that's going on.
So with perspectives like that,it's almost like most Muslims
just want to be like Jesus.
He said you got to be in theworld and not of it.
(46:32):
So I'm stuck over here inAmerica as much as I want to be
here right now.
If there was a communitytight-knit, strong enough, close
enough, financially backedenough we could have an area
where we can work together andgrow on and we don't have to
worry too much about what goeson on the outside.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
But if it wasn't for Islam certain Black folks
wouldn't have them.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Concepts Can Elijah teach us about the importance of
getting us some land after hemet with MLK and then MLK's tone
switched up about the black manowning things and getting land
and working together growingtheir own food?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, got you Okay.
So we spoke about now thezicker beads.
I think you kind of grazed overthat a little bit, but you know
, um, I want to, I want to get alittle deeper into that.
So, the the zicker beads.
Now, when you're saying themantra and you're moving the
(47:35):
beads down first off, how longdoes that take?
How long does that take?
Are you moving?
You're not moving.
The whole necklace.
Is it a necklace?
It's not a necklace, right?
Speaker 2 (47:49):
It can be one.
It's long enough to wear aroundthe neck, but it's a hundred
beads on this particular one and, yes, go around more than once.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Okay, so you go around more than once, and then,
how long does that take?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
It depends on the particular spiritual practice.
Like a Sheikh or like a mathteacher Enlightener would use
that same alphanumeric formulato take certain names of Allah
right and figure out theiralphanumeric equivalent, based
off of what that name of Allahmeans, resonates or vibrates.
As we give that to a discipleas a practice with that
(48:28):
particular number, so they dothat particular prayer with that
name of Allah and that exactnumber.
Some of those numbers can bepretty short, like 20.
Wadud, for the all-loving one,equals 20.
But theBismillahirrahmanirrahim
altogether equals 786.
Okay, certain names likeAl-Hani, that equals up like
(48:56):
1,000, 1,100 and something.
Certain names like al-Hani,that equals up, I think it's
like a thousand, a thousand, onehundred and something hold on.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
So you're using the beads.
You're saying what exactly thenames?
Speaker 2 (49:12):
like this entire time I've been using one, one short
prayer, one short mantra.
Astaghfirullah in Arabic, butit just means I seek the
forgiveness of Allah, but theentire time it's just been going
on back here.
So whenever I Astaghfirullah,astaghfirullah, I need to say
(49:34):
something, pause for a littlebit, but then when I'm getting
back to center I'll start for awhile.
It's always going on in thesubconscious.
So if that's always going onback here, it helps make sure I
don't know crap.
Come out of this.
This right here, right.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
So so when you say God forgiveness, you saying uh,
I seek the forgiveness of Allah.
That's what the name means.
So when you're saying thatmantra, what is that actually
doing for you?
Is that soothing you?
Is that bringing you at peace?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It's kind of from that same side, so the mind
perspective, but from an Islamicflavor you mentioned it was
either my imam or brother Dawoodwas saying that sometimes you
don't know if you've done a baddeed.
Sometimes we get so caught upin our daily life where you
(50:31):
don't know that you didsomething that Allah was like I
can't believe you just did that.
So always seek forgiveness ofAllah because did something that
Allah was like I can't believehe just did that you know.
So always seek forgiveness ofAllah because Allah is ever
forgiving.
That's I forget what surah thatparticular ayah or that verse
is in, but that's a part of theQuran which says always seek the
forgiveness of Allah becauseAllah is always forgiving.
(50:54):
So even if I did like get alittle stressed out today and
went to the library to try tocalm down a bit, but then I
heard footsteps behind me comingup to the door and I looked at
my reflection in the glass doorand I saw a lady walking about
four or five footsteps behind meand I just walked into the
(51:18):
library, right, what would ithave hurt me to wait them four
footsteps to hold the door forthat lady in that example?
So if I was stressed out inthat example.
You know I didn't catch that.
I might have did that.
You know I was caught up ingoing to go get this book.
I'm trying to seek forgivenessand repent for whatever it was,
whether I know it or whether Idon't know it.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Small, large and in between.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
So it makes you more humble.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
It does help keep you centered Because, again, it's a
positive, and it's a positiverepetitive mantra and it's also
a short prayer too, and thenit's a pragmatic prayer, Like I
am seeking the forgiveness ofAllah.
So I have to be active in doingwhat I'm supposed to do right
(52:10):
and not doing what I'm notsupposed to do, so I don't have
to turn around and seekforgiveness again.
But guess what I'm going to dotomorrow?
I'm going to seek some moreforgiveness.
I don't know.
There might have been somethingI did yesterday that I didn't
say.
You know what man I shouldn'thave did that.
Let me go tell someone.
So I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
And it keeps you like right and exact in your mind,
like checks and balances.
You know Right.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
In real time.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, you don't really miss anything.
You know, SPS man, I get it, Itotally get it.
So now, when it comes to likecustoms, right?
Uh, of course, women fullycovered, Hajib um, and for men,
(52:58):
men, they don't necessarily haveto be fully covered and they
don't have to have a jib on.
So what are the customs for men, you know?
Like, for instance, when thesummer comes, you know, I
noticed men, Muslim men theywill wear a short sleeve shirt,
but they wouldn't necessarilywear a tank top.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
You don't never catch them wearing shorts either,
right, nothing really above likean inch or two above the ankle,
and even that can be seen astoo high in some traditions.
So the men, it's almost alwayspants.
No, tight, fit pants likewhat's going on today at all,
(53:38):
loose, fitting pants so you canbreathe, and similar with the
shirt, so it's not tight andrevealing.
You're going to have to getready to go to the mosque and
you don't want to have to try topray in spandex or pray in
tight jeans and whatnot, because, again, the man's supposed to
(53:58):
be covered up.
But you know it's a little bitdifferent in the moment we don't
have, you know, much, you knowwe don't have things to cover up
like they do.
So the type of dress with themis a little bit different.
With men it's just you can havethe short sleeves.
You won't catch any praying ina tank top at all, because the
(54:19):
only time you'll really see theexposed shoulders of a Muslim
man is if he's on the hot.
He has his, you know, the whitecloth wrapped around him.
One shoulder is usually exposed, but other than that you
usually won't see it unless youpersonally know a Muslim and
y'all been friends, for you knowLord knows how long y'all go
play basketball or something,but at that point it's just
(54:39):
people playing basketball, right?
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Right, okay, so and and you know what's the
difference between the headcovered hajib for women and the
face?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
It's the hijab, at least the head and the hair
front and then the side of thehairline.
Most of the hijabs can kind ofhang down to cover up any
remaining hair in the back, butmost are usually pretty careful
to try to hide it or tie it upornate so it don't look like
it's there a a niqab.
(55:16):
A niqab is a.
Niqab is the one that covers upthe whole face right when we
just see the eyes.
Those traditions come from alittle bit further east.
You know they're not forced,like most would say.
A lot of the women actually dochoose to wear it because from
their culture it gives them asense of protection.
(55:37):
They they don't have to worryabout the crying eyes of men
outside of society.
So it gives them a differentlevel of status over there
because ain't nobody looking atthem like we look at women over
here.
The vertica I think the verticais probably one of the most
extreme ones because it's justfull black, everything you can
(56:01):
see through the face covering,but from the outside, looking in
, like all you just really justsees it's just all black.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Okay, now we're running out of time, so, but I
want to give you a last questionand hopefully you'll come back.
You know like to have you on atleast twice a month.
That'd be real dope.
You know what I mean.
Just like that'll be peace.
You know we have everybody elseon this.
This has got to be on thisplatform.
(56:31):
So now, as far as polygamy andmonogamy, you knew that question
was coming.
Come on now.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
You say the best for last.
Right, we're trying to emulatethe Prophet Muhammad, right, he
had multiple wives.
He had four wives, four girls,then boys.
I think he had one male son,but son died young.
But that particular traditioncomes from following the Prophet
(57:04):
Muhammad.
He had four wives.
So if a man is able to, that's acatch.
If a man's already married to awife and he's like, hey, I want
to know the wife, it's notgoing to be that easy, they say.
The man has to make the firstwife extremely happy.
So the family has to be set.
The family has to be set therealready, has to be a structure
(57:27):
there.
You can't be needing foranything.
You can't be hurt and be tryingto plan to go get another wife
and even with that y'all stillfinna go talk to the imam at the
mosque about it.
That same type of structure isstill there to make sure
whatever families are comingtogether are able to do so.
(57:48):
So it ain't as easy as peoplemight think it is over here,
because you really gotta betight with the one you with so
much to the fact that where shedon't mind there being another
one in the household.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Oh, I like that, I like how you put that, I love
how you put that man, becauseit's like yo, I'm just going to
go be Muslim, bro, you know.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
Some might say that and they get there and realize
how hard it is.
They're like I got to read whatman.
I can't read that quickly stuff.
Some might say that and theyget there and realize how hard
it is.
They're like I gotta read whatman I can't read.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
That's quickly stuff I want four wives, so I'm gonna
be muslim.
You know, you know thatsometimes the motivation is bad,
you know, you know.
But uh, man, that was, yeah,teach, she said.
She said, sister said teach,yeah, man, that sounds like a
(58:42):
good deal for the women.
That sounds way more balancedas opposed to.
You know, I'm a Muslim.
Now I'm allowed to just havefour wives.
I'm going to pick that one,that one, that one and that one.
Now you know what I'm saying.
It ain't going to be easy.
One, that one, that one andthat one.
Now you know what I'm saying.
It makes way more sense.
But we're out of time, brother,thank you for coming out this
(59:05):
evening.
I really appreciate you, man.
Hopefully you'll come back on.
We'll keep you on and, you know, just go deeper into the
subject of Islam.
If you have anything you wantto say to the people, you have
the floor.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
If nobody watching has looked up or researched
Sheikh Ahmedou Bamba fromSenegal, he's mentioned in
chapter 2 in the essay that thelife and treatment of Master
Farid Muhammad, third paragraphon down.
So there's a connection betweenIslam and Sufism right there.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
Got you On that note.
Thank y'all for coming out thisevening.
I really appreciate you.
Everybody in the chat also knowremember, comment like, share,
subscribe, super chat, superchatter, super chatter.
We need it, we need the help.
As I said earlier, earlier,we're trying to get this podcast
to grow and keep growing andand bring on guests like this
(01:00:07):
brother right here.
Thank y'all for coming out thisevening.
We are out of here and peace,Peace.
what's going on?
What's going on out there.
Everybody is ron brown, lmt,the people's fitness
professional, aka soul brothernumber one.
Soul brother number one,reporting for duty.
Don't forget to like, comment,share, subscribe.
Also know we have super chatsIf you want to contribute to our
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(00:34):
I'm going to reiterate that.
Keep saying that, keepmarketing that.
When we first started this, wedidn't we kind of thought that
saying that all the time wascorny.
We kind of thought that sayingthat all the time was corny.
We thought we were too cool tosay that stuff.
But you know, that's some NewYork bull crap, right?
So you know.
(00:54):
So now we are humble.
We are humble.
You know we're trying to buildthis platform bigger and bigger
and better.
You know we're in a studio nowwe're in to build this platform
bigger and bigger and better.
You know we're in a studio now.
We're in a podcast studio.
We're trying to do once a monthand then eventually build up to
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(01:14):
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Peace Abin AB.
(01:35):
The Light really appreciate youcoming on this evening.
Tonight we're talking aboutIslam, sunni to Sufi.
I have a lot of questions inregards to Islam.
Sufi to Sunni to Sufi.
I have a lot of questions inregards to Islam, given my
background, so let's take itaway.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I'm ready man.
Essentially, islam being thatthird part of the Abrahamic
triangle that everybody somewhatknows about but is kind of
poorly misunderstood over herein the West.
Sufism not to get too far aheadis what people call it.
(02:13):
It's interdimensions.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
One second Before you do that.
I don't mean to cut you off, butthere's a there's a, there's a
NYP tradition we do here, ben,you know how we interview here,
right, abin?
If you're on, if you're on, ifyou're checking out the, if
you're on the chat right now,say yes, tell me, give me a one
or something.
So the way we traditionallyinterview is we ask a person you
(02:39):
know how did they come up?
Like, how, what was your startin Islam?
Or where did you grow up?
And then we take people throughthat journey.
So so, where were you born andraised and did you start off
Christian or Islamic?
Do you come from an Islamicfamily?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I tell you where I was born and raised, you'll
probably automatically assumewhat I grew up as like right in
the middle of Georgia, middleGeorgia.
Assume what I grew up as likeright in the middle of Georgia,
middle Georgia.
So definitely a Christian, and,not to joke about it, but a
Southern Baptist Christian atthat.
And so we lived that lifestylefor what 20, say about?
Like 21 to 25 years or so.
(03:18):
But that 21 to 25 year mark waskind of not even gonna lie, it
was kind of great.
It started to kind of walk awayfrom the church at that point
and you know, might've gotteninto a few things that might've
been that healthy for me orbeneficial for my future and
whatnot.
And I kept bumping into thesetwo brothers and a wife at these
(03:38):
Pan-African events for kind ofcoming into Islam, brother
Dawood and Brother Nafisa Alifrom what we say the best place
to be, mohammed Mosque number 93, right here in Macon, georgia.
But I kept bumping into them atPan-African festivals and
things like that.
And you know, I think mybrother could smell a little
(04:01):
alcohol on me from back then.
You know it was a thing, but no, I didn't.
And some of the things he wassaying like typical, trying to
invite you to the masjid paperbean pie and whatnot but he
would always hit me withsomething like I've been through
what you're going through, butI know where you're at right now
(04:22):
.
It ain't no fun being there Igot cleaned up from all that.
When I came into this he wouldtalk to me like that after the
typical introduction and Ialmost denied him three times,
like Jesus and Judas right,until that third time, peace
Actually wound up going to themosque with him and it was
(04:43):
probably one of the bestexperiences in my life at that
point because I had never Inever entered one and never seen
or know anything about it otherthan you know Malcolm X and
whatnot growing up.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Okay, so let's take it.
Let's, let's rewind.
So, uh, you grew up in a uh uhparent household mother and
father, two parent household.
Mother and father, two parenthousehold.
Grew up in a two parenthousehold.
You guys, your parents, raisedyou on, raised you in a Baptist
church.
Okay, Then you get into Islam.
(05:15):
What was your parents reactionto you getting into Islam?
Breaking up a little bit, bro.
You're breaking up your wifi isa little it was a fun
(05:38):
experience.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Wait, you still breaking up, bro.
I'm glad I can laugh at it nowand look back at something that
we all done, kind of grownthrough.
You hear me you still breakingup, bro.
I'm glad I can laugh at it now,you know, and then look back at
something that we we all donekind of grown through.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
You hear me you're breaking up.
Okay, now we're better.
Now I think we're back on trackjust a moment is this excuse me
y'all.
Y'all know technicaldifficulties.
That's how the internet is.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I can look back at it and kind of laugh at it now
from the ones and zeros man.
Sometimes the ones and zerosget flipped around and go hey
why.
But we both kind of learnedfrom the experience because it
was kind of alien for them atfirst, right To see, just be
able to dress differently, prayindifferently.
And I learned another languageand now my views about Jesus are
(06:35):
slightly different and eventhough it's slightly different,
that's more than enough to kindof put this big divide between a
primarily Christian family andthe only Muslim person in the
family at all.
So a lot of it just came from,you know, not understanding and
it being the first time somebodycomes around them like that,
(06:57):
and then it also being arelative that was raised up in
the church, I figured theyprobably had a lot of questions.
What made you want to leave?
Do you not believe in Jesus?
No more Stuff like that pops up.
Some of those questions I wouldhave looked at as hard
questions back then, which someof them I did look at as hard
questions.
I'm glad we had them nowbecause we have a better
(07:20):
understanding.
Muslims don't not like Jesus.
Muslims, you won't never catcha Muslim disrespecting you know,
because in order to be a Muslim, do you have to believe in
Allah, the books, the messengersthat Allah sent.
Allah sent Muhammad and Jesus,right, so you can't leave either
of the two out.
And little stuff like that isthings that they didn't know
(07:41):
about Islam.
So giving little nuggets likethat along the way kind of led
me like okay, so he's stillpraying more, that's good.
He ain't hanging out withso-and-so in the past anymore,
that's good Dang.
He is changing.
Nah, brother, I can't give upthat part, though it took some
time for them to grow into thechange and notice I'm different
(08:03):
and definitely better than who Iwas to where.
I'm not going to say I didn'tfeel accepted then, but now
they're a lot more comfortablewith you.
Know what this system is?
Uh, has allowed me to becomecompared to you.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Know where I was Now you know, um, um, oh, your mom
and dad still together.
Yeah, that's peace.
So now I just want to say thisreal quick Just as you know,
when I'm on these podcasts, mything is I'm going to be myself,
(08:37):
regardless of whom or what,whether I'm on the podcast or
not on the podcast.
But you made reference to, youknow, when you got into Islam,
your parents noticed that.
You know you changed.
Now here's the thing with mewhen I got into the 5% teachings
and the lessons and things likethat, and you know, I was told
(09:00):
I was God and I started tointernalize that because I
wasn't brought into theteachings right in exact the
proper way.
What it did was it made me anegomaniac going in.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
you know what I'm saying, you know so probably one
of my parents had thosefeelings because I was.
Initially it was.
It was a hard shift, you know,and it took me a while to grow
into understanding to then beable to explain it to him, you
know, so I see where you'recoming from that right, right,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So now did you have an email?
So you, yeah, you did.
You had a mentor that helpedyou through the process, right,
so?
So, um, when you got introducedto this, you spoke to your
family about it.
They noticed the change.
What else changed in your life,was it?
I mean, how did you deal withthe alcoholism?
(09:58):
I don't know if you werealcoholic, but I mean you were
drinking at that time.
But how did you just cut coldturkey?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh, I definitely tried, Definitely tried, but it
was.
It's a, it's a process, almostkind of with like, uh, uh,
giving up certain foods.
It's a, it's a process.
And then, uh, the learning ofthe five daily prayers is a
process too.
So, you know, as soon as youcome in and take your shahada,
they'll expect for you to allright, brother, no more baking,
no more alcohol, no moregambling, no more women.
(10:27):
And you know it's a processbecause Islam consists of a
large corpus of applicable andpragmatic knowledge.
So they can't hit somebody withthat all at once, because it
could be overwhelming.
Right, it was a motivationalprocess to slowly but surely
stop.
You know, get stronger with.
No, I don't need any of that.
(10:47):
Let me get 20 on, pump five,and then you know it's gone on
with the rest of the day.
But that time, 10 years prior,it might have been a little more
difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Got you.
So now you stop drinking andyou know there was a gradual
process, right?
What age was this?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
there was a gradual process, right?
What age was this?
This was that same kind of akind of gray area, that 21 25
year old time frame.
Because you know, I'm kind ofout of the church at that point,
I'm kind of trying to figurestuff out.
But you know, I don't have aspiritual base at that moment at
all, not during that time frame.
So it wasn't really an ethicalor moral system or uh, but
wasn't upholding the dietarylaws or anything.
So it wasn't um, to me backthen I guess it wasn't a bad
(11:30):
thing, you know, as long as youdon't get messed up.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
But right, okay.
So now, okay, when did you?
When do you say you would?
You were officially rooted inislam, where you were praying
five times, five times a day.
You were officially rooted inIslam where you were praying
five times a day.
You were reading the Quran,dealing with the Hadiths.
You were entrenched in theteachings, in the religion.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I'm about late 20s, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32.
I was pretty heavy into theorthodoxy during those years and
that's when I got the help fromthe imam, saw me reading this
huge Quran book, but obviously Ican't read Arabic at that point
because I'm admiring thebeautiful calligraphy and stuff.
And he asked me I'm like no, Ijust took shahad a couple months
(12:19):
ago, I can't read it.
And he offered to teach meArabic.
We would meet like Tuesdays andthursdays at like 9 to 10 or 9
to 10, 30 or so, basic, uh,letter recognition, individual
letters, how to pronounce theletters and then how to connect
them that's a different scienceand how to recognize them as
(12:41):
words.
So another process still stillbecause Arabic's tough.
But what I can say is hementioned something that I still
feel to this day that learninga new language is almost like it
rewires certain neurons in yourmind.
Oh yeah, if you would havelived my whole life and not
attempt to learn a new language,there are certain neural
(13:02):
connections that would havenever connected with me having
to learn that language and thoseconnections allowed things to
happen up here that would havenever been able to happen if I
wouldn't have stretched thattensile ability and made a
connection.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
He had a Prophet Muhammad moment.
Ron, when Jabril said to readand he was an illiterate, he
said I can't read.
He said look at the paper, justkeep reading.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So that sounds.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I understand what you're saying when it reconnects
with your brain because, youknow, here in the Western world
we're so accustomed to readingfrom left to right, and from
there it's right to left, whichalso, you know, changes the
sequence of things, how we viewthings.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I understand where you're coming from.
I think we're all about in thesame age group, weren't we in
elementary and middle schoolwhen, all of a sudden, cursive
just went away?
They stopped teaching cursive.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
A generation after us might not be able to write
cursive.
That's kind of a similar systemof connecting letters
recognizing an individual, andnow you can darn decipher what
you want from one language toanother because you can write it
in a different form, Right.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So now, okay, now you're entrenched.
Now, what about?
I'm speaking for myself.
I mean, as a man growing up,women were important to me.
I'm sure women were importantto Mikey Fever Right Hell yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I see why you're going to die with your foot.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So now, now, now you're twenty one, twenty two,
twenty five, thirty, like atthis time in your life, you, you
, you understand how to talk togirls, talk to women, talk to
women, get them, get the number,you know what I mean, and have
a relationship and things likethat.
How was that piece in your lifedealing with Islam?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
It did change a little bit.
The type of woman that I mighthave an interest in definitely
wound up changing, definitelyone that has a little bit more
class and culture about herself.
Ain't nothing wrong with havingfun every now and then, but not
one that's for the streets.
Just because you look good,there might have been a certain
(15:23):
type that would have went afterbefore Islam, but after the fact
it's like she's fine now.
Yeah for sure, for sure.
You use the ethics and morals ofthe system to immediately apply
and be like I don't thinkthat'll work.
Now she's super Christian, oryou know.
(15:46):
No, she dresses in a way that Ican't take her home to my folks
dressed like that or no.
She listened to a bunch ofdebaucherous music and she acts
like the females in the musicvideos, like not to talk about
ourselves, you know.
But you know you start to lookdifferently and you start to
care about things and thisperson you're going to try to,
you know, have something with,because if it works, then you
(16:08):
know it works, and if you thinkyou made a mistake a couple of
years in, you can't get thattime back, right For sure.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So now that the great , great answer.
So now.
So what were you doing?
Were you dating just mainlyMuslim women?
And how does the dating processgo?
Because I know how the Nationof Islam does it Like you have
to court a woman.
You know you guys have toreally get to know each other.
It's like almost a military.
(16:35):
The way they come together iswhat they do in the Nation of
Islam.
In terms of relationships, itis phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
It's phenomenal, it's all mental, it's spiritually
mental.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Your knowledge base, your will and not only that,
everybody, they kind of comearound them, they help them.
You know what I'm saying.
So how is it the same way inour Islam?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That goes back to indigenous stuff.
With our Islam it's structured,kind of similar.
Let's say, if there was a cutegirl in the mosque, what am I
looking at girls in the mosquefor?
But there's a cute girl in thatcommunity that comes to the
imam and, you know, tell theimam about my interest.
You know, let me know of a goodway to go about doing it.
Maybe speak to her dad orapproach her after prayer, or
(17:23):
the imam might set up a meetingbetween me and the parents.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Almost the same type of structure Hold on.
This is how it's supposed to go, right here, do you understand?
If we all did this, we wouldavoid a lot of nonsense.
Facts I was thinking the samething too.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was thinking the same thing too.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Essentially, what's happening is they're looking at
both sides, like, how is thispotential male structure, how is
this potential female structure?
Like, are they really living upto the principles?
Okay, so if they want to go ona date something like I remember
the imam told me a story aboutthat A couple kind of came
(18:03):
together into the masjid andthey went out to eat at
Applebee's.
They're over on one side ofApplebee's but the imam's on the
other side at a table facingthem directly, completely out of
sight.
They know he's there but theycan't see him.
So they're just in the moment.
But they have to, let's justsay, behave.
They have to remain uprightwhile they're out in public,
(18:26):
with whatever kind of interestthey might have with each other.
And the imam looks at thosethings and almost seems like the
same you're saying the nation.
They have the same structure.
Are they going to represent us?
Like we need to be representedout here in public and society
Got you so now we spoke on thatpiece Now, sunni and Sufi, what
(18:52):
are the differences?
I'll say Sufism is just like theinner dimension or the more
spiritual traditions.
I don't know if they hear thenoise in the background, but one
of the main practices is what'scalled zikr and sufism, which
is what we understand as mantrasover here in the West, a
(19:13):
similar spiritual system.
It's also done in the mosque.
Right, this concept is done inthe mosque, but it's I won't say
it's strict or rigid, but it'sstructured right.
There's a hadith of ProphetMuhammad would recite this
particular pasbih or thisparticular sikr, this particular
(19:34):
mantra, after prayer.
So it's customary allthroughout the mosque.
Everybody does these thingsthat Prophet Muhammad did like,
try to emulate them to the T anddon't go anywhere further past
that.
But with sufism, with it beinga little bit more on the inner
tradition, uh, it kind of putsyou in the mindset of what
(19:54):
christian gnosticism is.
Okay yeah I put it all up in awhole as soon as I'm kind of
like what christian gnosticismis essentially?
Uh, the system of kabbalah wehave Abjad, the same
alphanumeric system of slackersand repeating numbers and
whatnot.
But with Sufism, with that sameconcept of repetitive prayers
(20:17):
or mantras and whatnot, weunderstand that Hadith about the
Prophet Muhammad doing this oneparticular mantra.
After prayer he repeatsSubhanAllah 33 times and
Alhamdulillah 33 times.
33, right, and La ilahaillallah 33 times to equal up to
99.
That equals 99 names of Allah.
(20:37):
So now you're perfectly in linewith this tradition,
alhamdulillah.
But then Sufi will look a littlebit deeper into the Quran, a
little bit deeper intotraditions, still keeping the
same concept, right.
But we'll remember and see likenow Quran Allah did say Innala
hawa malaykutu fuyusilum ar-lan,nabi ya'ari wa aladina wa
(21:00):
al-manu sali wa alayhi wa salimutasliman Subtitles Verily,
allah and his angels sendblessings upon the prophet, send
blessings or send prayers,prayer beads.
So, oh, you who believe, sendprayers, peace and blessings
upon him in abundance.
So that Quran verse saying todo that same thing, take the
(21:23):
same concept, but do it inabundance.
Nothing wrong with that.
33 times, three repetition.
But We'll take that sameconcept and go deeper.
Let's say that alphanumericsystem.
If you take the Bismillah orRahman Rahim in the beginning of
(21:43):
the Quran and you turn thoseletters into numbers, the
numerical formula is 786.
In Saudi Arabia it's 787.
In North Africa, west Africa,so a person would take a
particular mantra and wouldliterally sit and repeat it that
(22:03):
particular number of times Toequal up to the number of
Bismillah Rahman, rahim.
So some alchemy going on withthat.
It's a wonderful science of themind because that structure you
get in the mosque, it opens youup to it.
But the inner wisdom, thespiritual practices and some of
(22:27):
the deepest stuff you get fromSufism opens the mind and the
heart a little bit more.
Because I like to look at thisfrom the science of the mind
perspective to explain it tofolks, especially here in the
South, and like imaginelistening to this song on the
radio that repeats all thesenegative things over and over
and over and over.
The chorus of that song isrepetitive.
(22:48):
So now you repeat that samething again, with a different
pitch or tone in the chorus, acertain number of times, over
and over and over and over.
And if I look at a certain sideof town, the society over there,
not to talk about my people.
But it's not that good overthere.
It's on the mind that's beingproduced in that society.
But if a person would sit andit doesn't have to be it's got
(23:13):
to be a prayer.
There's certain songs I hearthat you don't have to talk
about robbing, killing, stealingand whatnot, but let's just say
repeating a short prayer overand over.
What the person's doing is.
They're not allowing their mindto focus on anything negative
at all.
They're repeating the prayerover and over and over and over.
(23:33):
Peace to the God.
And keeping that positivethought in the mind doesn't
allow the mind to think ofanything negative.
It won't allow it to even thinkabout kicking in nobody door
all the other stuff that getstalked about on the radio at all
and it keeps those channelsopen for some of the more
spiritual traditions to tap in.
(23:54):
Like they say, you open themind of the higher spiritual
realities.
Wisdom from higher spiritualrealities will get poured onto
you from Allah.
But if my mind is befuddledwith you know, niggas, you know
I ain't gonna hear Allah talkingto me.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Got you, so now yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
So now, when we say, when yousay the word Sunni and you say
the word Sufi, would you happento know the actual definition of
the two?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Sunni.
It'll come from this Arabicword that is ascribed to the
Prophet Muhammad Sunnah.
His Sunnah is like what we werejust talking about the things
he did, his ways of life, hisways of being, some of the
things he said, some of thethings he might have done,
spiritual practices and whatnot.
So the Muslims used those toemulate the prophet.
(24:53):
They called themselves theSunni.
So that's where the name of Lipcomes in.
At Sufi, to keep that a littlebit shorter, they say Sufi comes
from the word wool becausethere were some companions of
the Prophet Muhammad that wouldstudy in the inner traditions
(25:14):
with him, that would sit onoutside of the Prophet's mosque
on this bench doing theirspiritual practices, repeating
their prayers over and over,while everybody else was praying
Message.
But those people would besitting outside wearing their
wool garments.
So they say that's where theword Suf comes from.
But remember that Kabbalahconnection.
(25:36):
Suf is linguistic, it connectsto Sophia, same thing on the
Greek side.
So Sufi and Sophia, it's divinewisdom.
On the feminine side, it's reallife, sophia, that's that.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Oh, wow, so you're connecting it.
That's peace.
Oh man, we're getting deep.
All right, so now I spoke tothis brother on a plane last
week and he says said Sufismcame after Sunni.
So you know, so was he correct.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That's almost like saying my body was made first
and then my heart was made last.
But we all know the heart wasmade first.
Without the inner tradition andthe inner wisdom, there can't
be an exterior form at all.
This thing was created from thething on the inside.
Can't nobody see it?
It created this around itselffor protection.
So that's just like ignoringthe thing on the inside.
(26:41):
I don't see it like that.
So would you say that just likeignoring the thing on the
inside?
You know, with, with you know I, I don't.
I don't see it like that.
So would you say century, youright on you, right on, he said
hey century, that's the thebeginning of the golden age.
But you know, you and you bothknow where they were at during
that timeframe.
Right, there was only onepriesthood that could have given
(27:07):
them the wisdom that would leadto this, uh, this golden age.
Yeah, uh, what we call Sufismtoday.
So the, the inner tradition,already existed before then.
Uh, true enough, cause there'salways been some types of
societies.
But as far as uh Islam goes,sufism did kind of get birthed.
Uh, sufism did kind of getbirthed and then Islam got
(27:27):
wrapped around it.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That's the safe way to say it uh, oh, time out that,
sorry, I'm going to send thisto the brother later.
He's going to go, hmm, so,alright, so you broke down
Sufism, you broke down Sunni.
So let's say I'm a newborn, soto speak, or, you know, a new,
(27:48):
new follower, or what have you.
And, uh, you know, I wanted toget into, uh, islam, right, and
I want to get, I want to gostraight to Sufism.
Is that is that?
Are there any prerequisites?
Do you have to go Sunni beforeit goes Sufi?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
And what are the differences in the lines?
It is recommended to have abase.
My shake shake off from theObama from Senegal had a short
aphorism.
He says you have to get intothe boat of the Sharia before
you get into the ocean of theHakiqat.
And getting into the boat ofthe Sharia you know the vessel
that will take you, but theSharia is your do's and don'ts.
(28:32):
You know the Islamic law how topray, fasting and Ramadan and
things like that.
So it's a good thing to have atleast a basic understanding of
it so that it can be applied,because if a person goes and
gets in the ocean withoutgetting in the boat, they're
liable to drown.
I'm not too sure how deep thatwater is.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Okay, okay.
So what are the differences?
In the lines like, as far asthe practice is concerned?
So Sufis and Sunnis, they prayfive times a day, okay, okay.
And the Sufis and Sunnis, theypray five times a day, okay,
okay.
And the Ramadan?
Of course, everyone doesRamadan.
(29:13):
So what are the actualdifferences?
When I go into the mosque,where do the Sunnis go and where
do the Sufis go?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, that's a nice question.
I like that.
I really like that, becauseobviously you won't be able to
tell which one is a Sufi and themosque or not.
I'm lying, possibly so.
Or if you see some in themosque with prayer beads that
have extra beads on strings onthe end.
(29:45):
It's essentially kind of likean abacus.
So if I'm going to do 787prayers it's 100 beads on here.
I know if I move seven of thesedown and I can mark 50 right
here, which means 30 is abouthalfway between this bead and
(30:05):
that bead.
I know right where to stop atto hit that exact number.
But that's a science that isnot really talked about or done
much in the mosque.
But you might catch somebodywith a pair of beads on that
might have some extra counterson the end.
And if you I almost faced theline with Lath and have them in
the prayer over with just to seewhat's up.
(30:27):
Or some that do the henna inthe beard that particular
tradition has been going on eversince Ramsey the second, so
that even ain't, but that'sanother kind of a sign you might
be able to tell okay.
Okay, leather belts around likea cummerbund style.
(30:52):
Might look kind of odd to see amale wearing like one of these
long draping of, but they havethis big, thick leather belt
wrapped around the midsection.
Other than that, they just looklike everybody else in the
mosque.
But it's just little stuff thatif you notice you can be like
yeah, he'd be, like he wassaying.
(31:13):
Both Sunnis and both Sufis prayfive times a day.
Do the Hajj in their lifetime,if they can.
They fast in Ramadan, they payZakat or charity and observe all
the pillars of the Orthodox.
Do they fast in Ramadan, theypay zakat or charity and I'm
sorry about all the things thatthe Orthodox do.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
There's just additional things that the
Orthodox might not do, that youmight get some soupies doing.
Okay, Now the call to prayer.
Years ago, I had anorganization called the
universal indigo children and wewould hold our meetings and all
our like youth programs at aMuslim school and we would be
(32:05):
around Muslims all day and wewould always hear the call to
prayer.
And the call to prayer for meis so it's like the most
beautiful sound you could everhear.
Right, what are they actuallysaying during the call to prayer
?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Good one.
It's actually the same thing,repeated a couple of times, but
you'll hear Allah Hu Akbar,allah Hu Akbar, because God is
the greatest, god is thegreatest.
And then it's repeated againAllah Hu Akbar, allah Hu Akbar.
God is the greatest, god is thegreatest.
That's my bad witness.
(32:48):
There is no God but Allah.
And then it's repeated again.
I bear witness that there is noGod but Allah.
I bear witness that Muhammad isthe messenger of Allah, and
that's repeated twice againMessenger of Allah.
And that's repeated twice again.
(33:08):
The second half of calling isHayya al-Salah, which is Hayya
means come to Salah, come toSalah, come to prayer.
That's repeated twice.
Hayya al-Salah, come to yoursuccess.
Salah rhymes with Salah, butFilah with the F means success.
(33:29):
It's repeated twice again andAllahu Akbar, allahu Akbar, god
is the greatest, god is thegreatest.
La ilaha illallah.
So it's beautiful, especiallywhen it's done.
They don't like to call it asong, but when it's done, they
don't like to call it a song,but when it's done melodically,
you know, with the inflectionsand whatnot, I don't know what
(33:51):
it is about it, man.
It brings Christians to tearswhen they hear it for the first
time.
It really, really, really hits.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
It hits man, it hits hard.
All I can add is that thescientific aspect of it because
you know, I said this beforelike the body is, you know,
consuming mostly of water, it'sbuilt the most so when those
sounds resonate, it goes throughyour body.
You vibrate higher.
It's etching to you as you sayit moves you to tears it lifts.
It lifts up your spirit andit's beautiful when they do the
call and every everyone is.
It's like how the church tollsthe bell at noon or at three
(34:23):
o'clock the sound goes through.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And he says man, that's where this tradition came
from, because the Muslimsneeded a way to call themselves
to the mosque, but they didn'twant to use traditions that were
from places where they camefrom Right.
They didn't want to call peopleto the mosque with the bells or
from the bell tower or the waythe Christians and Jews did.
So the adhan wound up beingused to kind of be a
(34:56):
distinguishing factor betweenyou know all the parts of the
Abrahamic triangle.
At that point in time, nothingto say nothing wrong with the
bells and stuff, because youknow what it did with the bells
over here.
But, yeah, at a time, that atime, it's different and you
know, even even as a Sufi, itwas still doing the same thing.
I remember my first Ramadan,maybe a year or two, in the
study of Sufism, no matter whatkind of deep wisdom or you know
what kind of deep teachers, oryou know Chris O'Terry and all
(35:23):
of who we're getting into, it'sstill it's the Psalms 133 moment
, for real, because you, youknow that there are two people
beside you, right, but there'srows and rows and rows and rows
of brothers behind you, to theleft, to the right, in front,
everywhere, and everybody is onthe same accord, focused on the
same thing man, you said thatsong 133, that's dope, I like
(35:47):
when you went.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
It's okay, I got you right.
I see, I see where you're goingwith that, but yeah, it is
multiple passports, exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
I remember something happening during the orthodox
time frame, to kind of make it,you know, bring it all together
during Ramadan, during theOrthodox time frame.
I remember hearing a brotherbehind me 10-15 minutes into
this prayer, because thoseRamadan prayers are real, real
long, so you're going to bestanding for a long time in
between praying and bowing.
(36:21):
So 10-15 minutes in we doneprayed and bowed and prostrated
once and stand back up.
Now it's another section of theQuran that's going to get
recited.
Sometimes people have somethingon them or they're going
through something.
So when this verse hits all of asudden man did the tears just
start to fall?
And that was my first.
People have something on themor they're going through
something.
So when this verse hits all ofa sudden man, the fear just
started to fall.
And that was my first timeexperiencing that.
(36:41):
Like is this brother behind me?
Focus on the prayer?
But I can't help but to hearlike brother just touched right
now man, Like wow, Like thatnever happened to me when I was
in the church, Like I ain'tnever caught the Holy Ghost or
nothing Like that.
That never happened to me when Iwas in the church Like I never
caught the Holy Ghost or nothinglike that never happened.
(37:03):
But a few years later, that sameexperience.
Yeah, that's saying something.
But that same experiencehappened a couple of years later
in the mosque.
I got to study in Sufism,sitting there praying what?
30 or 40 minutes into thisparticular prayer, the imam gets
to a certain section of thesecond chapter of the Quran that
I had memorized at that pointin time.
So everything that was leadingup to it I could pick pieces out
(37:25):
, you know, I could, you know,put together.
You know what's going on in thestory, because I wasn't good
with it when he got to verse 285and 286, I was the dude behind
somebody that was crying andcouldn't hold it in.
I honestly can't even explainwhat made it start.
It was like I know that, I knowthat my subconscious had the
(37:50):
Arabic over here and the Englishright here, while the imam was
saying it on the loudspeaker inthat same tone and couldn't hold
it in, your mom was saying iton the loudspeaker in that same
tone and you just couldn't holdit in.
No more man, stuff like that'slife-changing.
So, regardless of what peoplebelieve, experience, another
tradition or a culture here.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
It's the tonality of it.
Like you mentioned, with Sufism, it mostly focused on the
metaphysical, mystical side ofIslam as you put it right.
So that experience you had.
It's the tonality, therecitation of the certain surahs
, as you put it, or certain, asyou say, mantras.
(38:32):
How about the aspect of, withpurification, like what's it
called fana, that's?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
how about the aspect of um with purification, like
the, what's it called Fana?
I said, uh, well, that Fana,that Fana really is a Sufi, uh,
metaphysical teaching, uh, thepurification, uh, the, the, the
Wudu, the washing of the hands.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
A lot of those um, a lot of those, I hate to say,
like the core parts of thetradition.
They never go anywhere.
So if I was sitting and I mighthave ate something, I shouldn't
have ate and had a little bitof gas.
There's a tradition where if aperson releases gas, then that
breaks their voodoo.
(39:12):
They then get up and go maketheir voodoo again so that
they're in a state of ritualpurity.
They then get up and go maketheir wudu again, so that
they're in a state of ritualpurity.
Just in case, you know, prayercomes up, you know, or something
might hit you and you mightwant to go do a voluntary prayer
.
You just might want to go talkto allah yourself, but you're a
little soiled, you know.
So it's good to go through thatritual purity.
Same thing from sunniism toSufism.
(39:35):
Some traditions might, whatseems like, take it and kind of
run with it, because some ofthese traditions are African
traditions, but the basics of itis still there Washing your
hands three times, from thehands up to the elbows, three
times the forehead, ears, nose,washing out the mouth behind the
(39:57):
neck and the feet.
So water is essentially touchingall of the spots of the body.
That's going to touch theprayer rug.
So water over my hands becauseI'm going to go down like this.
My hands are going to touch theprayer rug.
Face, nose, forehead is goingto touch the prayer rug.
Some kind of frown againstputting your elbow on the prayer
(40:18):
rug.
Some kind of frown againstputting your elbow on the prayer
rug and lift it up a little bit.
They tell you not to sit like adog, so don't put your elbow on
, but still your elbow is goingto be resting on your knees or
on your thighs.
So every part of you that'seither touching a part of you
that's touching the part of theprayer rug has to be in ritual
purification.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Can I touching a part of you that's touching the part
of the prayer rug has to be inritual purification.
Being that you went throughsunni orthodox islam, why is it
that some people tend to look atsufism as not the purest form
of islam?
Because I have heard thatthey're like well, that's.
That's not Islam.
It's the best way to go Sunni.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Why is that?
I've never heard that one.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I've heard people say they don't practice that.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
They're like oh, it's better to go this.
You know, some of the practicescan be looked at as what they
call binda in Islam, and bindais innovation, like something
that's done extra or on top, orsomething that we know the
prophet didn't do.
But taking the small thing and,you know, blowing it up, like
that concept of doing yourmantra 99 times versus doing a
(41:28):
mantra 787 times, it's still thesame practice.
Some can get and I can onlyspeak for myself because I was
there to get so caught up in thetradition, right the way that
anything else outside of thattradition is not only alien,
it's just almost like it couldbe damaging to the tradition.
If too many other people get toit, people will start to look
(41:50):
at this spiritual tradition orthis spiritual practice Dang,
that brother got some niceprayer beads or what's that?
Juju pouch around thatbrother's neck, certain things
like that.
They'll look at like, no,that's not Islam.
Then again, a lot of thosetraditions, fortunately, can be
found in the histories and thetraditions.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Now let me ask you this being that this platform
has got Moors, you got fivepercenters on here.
We have everything.
So in the eyes of someone inIslam let's say, your brothers
and your mosque and things likethat are other people in what
(42:33):
they would say Islam.
They would say Islam.
Would that be regarded as youknow what?
Do they call it infidels, orthe K word Kufar.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yes, disbelief, kufar is almost like the religious N
word.
In that case, right, as much asI hate to say it, there's
people like that that do existout there that will look at the
NOI.
They will look at the MorrisHigh's temple as Uphar or
(43:10):
Capra's and really stand on it.
They'll go cherry-picking andpulling Hadith to verify what
and why.
On the opposite side, I mightbe doing the same thing to
defend them, because they'restill saying that there's still
tradition, just a wisdom thatcan be pulled.
They'll verify the things thatare going on today.
(43:32):
Right, like the.
How they say Muhammad the lastand final prophet.
The Arabic word for and is notin that statement.
Like how they say Muhammad'sthe last and final prophet.
The Arabic word for and is notin that statement.
Fatim will not be in at all.
It's not.
Fatim is literally a seal, likea stamp.
(43:53):
The caliph would wear a ringwith his signet on it.
The ruler at the time wouldwear a ring with his signet on
it.
The ruler at the time wouldwear a ring with his signet on
it, that particular seal, or aseal as in.
You take the concept of a magicsquare and each of the squares
are a prophet from a particularAbrahamic tradition and the
(44:15):
prophet Muhammad is in themiddle of that magic square, the
seal.
So all of the prophets thatcame before were culminated in
his example.
So when they say seal in Englishit can be left blank and bare
bones.
But when we look at that wordfrom an Arabic perspective, that
(44:35):
language is so deep I have tokeep a lexicon, a couple
translation tools and adictionary open at times,
because sometimes words can beso long with multiple letters
you got to know how to break itapart, to see its constituent
parts, to even know what it says, before putting it back
together again.
But the same thing with Qatun.
It doesn't mean last and finalat all.
(44:56):
It kind of means the collectiveseal of the essence of all of
the other prophets are sealedwithin this one.
And then the example that hecame and left.
So a Sufi might understand that.
But if I were to say that to aMuslim, no, we'd be arguing
right now or he'd be arguing,because I don't want to argue
(45:18):
with him.
I won't right now.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
what about also?
Um, I was watching, uh, jessepeters speak to a muslim on his
platform, a muslim woman, andshe said, uh, he said he, he
doesn't want to be a Muslimbecause Muslims, you know, they
want to dominate the world.
That's the focus.
So, and then the woman said youknow what?
(45:43):
I can't deny that, that's thetruth.
So how would you say?
What would you think?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
That particular woman might want to dominate the
world, but the thing is she'sthe only one person, but for the
most part, man, Muslims eitherA want to be left alone because
we go through so much as it is,regardless of what community we
come from.
If you say you're a Muslim in acertain side of the town right
here, you're going to get lookedat different by the other skin
(46:10):
complexion.
I don't understand why a personwould not want to be we don't
want to take over the world.
We might not want to be.
We don't want to take over theworld.
We might even want to be leftalone, or we want to have our
own community outside of all themess that's going on.
So with perspectives like that,it's almost like most Muslims
just want to be like Jesus.
He said you got to be in theworld and not of it.
(46:32):
So I'm stuck over here inAmerica as much as I want to be
here right now.
If there was a communitytight-knit, strong enough, close
enough, financially backedenough we could have an area
where we can work together andgrow on and we don't have to
worry too much about what goeson on the outside.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
But if it wasn't for Islam certain Black folks
wouldn't have them.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Concepts Can Elijah teach us about the importance of
getting us some land after hemet with MLK and then MLK's tone
switched up about the black manowning things and getting land
and working together growingtheir own food?
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, got you Okay.
So we spoke about now thezicker beads.
I think you kind of grazed overthat a little bit, but you know
, um, I want to, I want to get alittle deeper into that.
So, the the zicker beads.
Now, when you're saying themantra and you're moving the
(47:35):
beads down first off, how longdoes that take?
How long does that take?
Are you moving?
You're not moving.
The whole necklace.
Is it a necklace?
It's not a necklace, right?
Speaker 2 (47:49):
It can be one.
It's long enough to wear aroundthe neck, but it's a hundred
beads on this particular one and, yes, go around more than once.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Okay, so you go around more than once, and then,
how long does that take?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
It depends on the particular spiritual practice.
Like a Sheikh or like a mathteacher Enlightener would use
that same alphanumeric formulato take certain names of Allah
right and figure out theiralphanumeric equivalent, based
off of what that name of Allahmeans, resonates or vibrates.
As we give that to a discipleas a practice with that
(48:28):
particular number, so they dothat particular prayer with that
name of Allah and that exactnumber.
Some of those numbers can bepretty short, like 20.
Wadud, for the all-loving one,equals 20.
But theBismillahirrahmanirrahim
altogether equals 786.
Okay, certain names likeAl-Hani, that equals up like
(48:56):
1,000, 1,100 and something.
Certain names like al-Hani,that equals up, I think it's
like a thousand, a thousand, onehundred and something hold on.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
So you're using the beads.
You're saying what exactly thenames?
Speaker 2 (49:12):
like this entire time I've been using one, one short
prayer, one short mantra.
Astaghfirullah in Arabic, butit just means I seek the
forgiveness of Allah, but theentire time it's just been going
on back here.
So whenever I Astaghfirullah,astaghfirullah, I need to say
(49:34):
something, pause for a littlebit, but then when I'm getting
back to center I'll start for awhile.
It's always going on in thesubconscious.
So if that's always going onback here, it helps make sure I
don't know crap.
Come out of this.
This right here, right.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
So so when you say God forgiveness, you saying uh,
I seek the forgiveness of Allah.
That's what the name means.
So when you're saying thatmantra, what is that actually
doing for you?
Is that soothing you?
Is that bringing you at peace?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It's kind of from that same side, so the mind
perspective, but from an Islamicflavor you mentioned it was
either my imam or brother Dawoodwas saying that sometimes you
don't know if you've done a baddeed.
Sometimes we get so caught upin our daily life where you
(50:31):
don't know that you didsomething that Allah was like I
can't believe you just did that.
So always seek forgiveness ofAllah because did something that
Allah was like I can't believehe just did that you know.
So always seek forgiveness ofAllah because Allah is ever
forgiving.
That's I forget what surah thatparticular ayah or that verse
is in, but that's a part of theQuran which says always seek the
forgiveness of Allah becauseAllah is always forgiving.
(50:54):
So even if I did like get alittle stressed out today and
went to the library to try tocalm down a bit, but then I
heard footsteps behind me comingup to the door and I looked at
my reflection in the glass doorand I saw a lady walking about
four or five footsteps behind meand I just walked into the
(51:18):
library, right, what would ithave hurt me to wait them four
footsteps to hold the door forthat lady in that example?
So if I was stressed out inthat example.
You know I didn't catch that.
I might have did that.
You know I was caught up ingoing to go get this book.
I'm trying to seek forgivenessand repent for whatever it was,
whether I know it or whether Idon't know it.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Small, large and in between.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
So it makes you more humble.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
It does help keep you centered Because, again, it's a
positive, and it's a positiverepetitive mantra and it's also
a short prayer too, and thenit's a pragmatic prayer, Like I
am seeking the forgiveness ofAllah.
So I have to be active in doingwhat I'm supposed to do right
(52:10):
and not doing what I'm notsupposed to do, so I don't have
to turn around and seekforgiveness again.
But guess what I'm going to dotomorrow?
I'm going to seek some moreforgiveness.
I don't know.
There might have been somethingI did yesterday that I didn't
say.
You know what man I shouldn'thave did that.
Let me go tell someone.
So I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
And it keeps you like right and exact in your mind,
like checks and balances.
You know Right.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
In real time.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, you don't really miss anything.
You know, SPS man, I get it, Itotally get it.
So now, when it comes to likecustoms, right?
Uh, of course, women fullycovered, Hajib um, and for men,
(52:58):
men, they don't necessarily haveto be fully covered and they
don't have to have a jib on.
So what are the customs for men, you know?
Like, for instance, when thesummer comes, you know, I
noticed men, Muslim men theywill wear a short sleeve shirt,
but they wouldn't necessarilywear a tank top.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
You don't never catch them wearing shorts either,
right, nothing really above likean inch or two above the ankle,
and even that can be seen astoo high in some traditions.
So the men, it's almost alwayspants.
No, tight, fit pants likewhat's going on today at all,
(53:38):
loose, fitting pants so you canbreathe, and similar with the
shirt, so it's not tight andrevealing.
You're going to have to getready to go to the mosque and
you don't want to have to try topray in spandex or pray in
tight jeans and whatnot, because, again, the man's supposed to
(53:58):
be covered up.
But you know it's a little bitdifferent in the moment we don't
have, you know, much, you knowwe don't have things to cover up
like they do.
So the type of dress with themis a little bit different.
With men it's just you can havethe short sleeves.
You won't catch any praying ina tank top at all, because the
(54:19):
only time you'll really see theexposed shoulders of a Muslim
man is if he's on the hot.
He has his, you know, the whitecloth wrapped around him.
One shoulder is usually exposed, but other than that you
usually won't see it unless youpersonally know a Muslim and
y'all been friends, for you knowLord knows how long y'all go
play basketball or something,but at that point it's just
(54:39):
people playing basketball, right?
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Right, okay, so and and you know what's the
difference between the headcovered hajib for women and the
face?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
It's the hijab, at least the head and the hair
front and then the side of thehairline.
Most of the hijabs can kind ofhang down to cover up any
remaining hair in the back, butmost are usually pretty careful
to try to hide it or tie it upornate so it don't look like
it's there a a niqab.
(55:16):
A niqab is a.
Niqab is the one that covers upthe whole face right when we
just see the eyes.
Those traditions come from alittle bit further east.
You know they're not forced,like most would say.
A lot of the women actually dochoose to wear it because from
their culture it gives them asense of protection.
(55:37):
They they don't have to worryabout the crying eyes of men
outside of society.
So it gives them a differentlevel of status over there
because ain't nobody looking atthem like we look at women over
here.
The vertica I think the verticais probably one of the most
extreme ones because it's justfull black, everything you can
(56:01):
see through the face covering,but from the outside, looking in
, like all you just really justsees it's just all black.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Okay, now we're running out of time, so, but I
want to give you a last questionand hopefully you'll come back.
You know like to have you on atleast twice a month.
That'd be real dope.
You know what I mean.
Just like that'll be peace.
You know we have everybody elseon this.
This has got to be on thisplatform.
(56:31):
So now, as far as polygamy andmonogamy, you knew that question
was coming.
Come on now.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
You say the best for last.
Right, we're trying to emulatethe Prophet Muhammad, right, he
had multiple wives.
He had four wives, four girls,then boys.
I think he had one male son,but son died young.
But that particular traditioncomes from following the Prophet
(57:04):
Muhammad.
He had four wives.
So if a man is able to, that's acatch.
If a man's already married to awife and he's like, hey, I want
to know the wife, it's notgoing to be that easy, they say.
The man has to make the firstwife extremely happy.
So the family has to be set.
The family has to be set therealready, has to be a structure
(57:27):
there.
You can't be needing foranything.
You can't be hurt and be tryingto plan to go get another wife
and even with that y'all stillfinna go talk to the imam at the
mosque about it.
That same type of structure isstill there to make sure
whatever families are comingtogether are able to do so.
(57:48):
So it ain't as easy as peoplemight think it is over here,
because you really gotta betight with the one you with so
much to the fact that where shedon't mind there being another
one in the household.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Oh, I like that, I like how you put that, I love
how you put that man, becauseit's like yo, I'm just going to
go be Muslim, bro, you know.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
Some might say that and they get there and realize
how hard it is.
They're like I got to read whatman.
I can't read that quickly stuff.
Some might say that and theyget there and realize how hard
it is.
They're like I gotta read whatman I can't read.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
That's quickly stuff I want four wives, so I'm gonna
be muslim.
You know, you know thatsometimes the motivation is bad,
you know, you know.
But uh, man, that was, yeah,teach, she said.
She said, sister said teach,yeah, man, that sounds like a
(58:42):
good deal for the women.
That sounds way more balancedas opposed to.
You know, I'm a Muslim.
Now I'm allowed to just havefour wives.
I'm going to pick that one,that one, that one and that one.
Now you know what I'm saying.
It ain't going to be easy.
One, that one, that one andthat one.
Now you know what I'm saying.
It makes way more sense.
But we're out of time, brother,thank you for coming out this
(59:05):
evening.
I really appreciate you, man.
Hopefully you'll come back on.
We'll keep you on and, you know, just go deeper into the
subject of Islam.
If you have anything you wantto say to the people, you have
the floor.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
If nobody watching has looked up or researched
Sheikh Ahmedou Bamba fromSenegal, he's mentioned in
chapter 2 in the essay that thelife and treatment of Master
Farid Muhammad, third paragraphon down.
So there's a connection betweenIslam and Sufism right there.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
Got you On that note.
Thank y'all for coming out thisevening.
I really appreciate you.
Everybody in the chat also knowremember, comment like, share,
subscribe, super chat, superchatter, super chatter.
We need it, we need the help.
As I said earlier, earlier,we're trying to get this podcast
to grow and keep growing andand bring on guests like this
(01:00:07):
brother right here.
Thank y'all for coming out thisevening.
We are out of here and peace,Peace.
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