April 3, 2025 • 54 mins
Welcome To The Oddity Shop, Where The Bizarre is Always on Sale. This week, your curator Zach is finally covering the case of Lizzie Borden
The infamous Lizzie Borden axe murders stand as one of America's most enduring unsolved crimes—a bloody double homicide that shocked the nation and continues to fascinate more than a century later. We dissect the gruesome events of August 4, 1892, when Andrew Borden and his second wife Abby were brutally slain in their Fall River, Massachusetts home.
Delving into the complex family dynamics, we examine how Andrew's frugal nature and his daughters' resentment toward their stepmother created a household filled with tension
But the story doesn't end with the Murders. The Borden house has become notorious as one of America's most haunted locations, where paranormal investigators regularly document disembodied voices, phantom footsteps, and objects moving on their own.
Who was the killer? Was Lizzie indeed responsible but influenced by supernatural forces? Listen as we weigh the evidence both forensic and paranormal, and decide for yourself what really happened at 92 Second Street.
Refs:
- https://ghostwalks.com/articles/lizzie-borden-house-ghost-stories
- https://www.novelsuspects.com/excerpts/the-lizzie-borden-house/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Borden
- https://www.britannica.com/biography/Lizzie-Borden-American-murder-suspect
- https://lizzie-borden.com/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Ghosts/comments/oxy2j2/creepy_experience_at_the_lizzie_borden_house/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/ParanormalEncounters/comments/18rw9tj/my_time_investigating_the_lizzie_borden_axe/
- The Curse Of Lizzie Borden SHOCK DOC on Discovery+
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I want to dance with the Malt Men At the IA shop,
Baked in the moonlight At the IAshop.
Creep through the graveyard Tothe IA shop.
The door's always open At theIA shop.
(00:29):
Welcome back to the Oddity Shop, you oddballs.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm your curator Kara , with your curator Zachary, and
this is the podcast where wetell you creepy, odd, weird,
strange, bizarre stories fromaround the globe, or flat earth,
depending on what you believe.
How are you doing today?
Wait first of all before.
How are you doing flat eartheror round earther?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
round earther perfect .
Speaker 2 (00:59):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I'm doing fabulous.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm so glad I'm doing okay.
I am uh, I'm just glad Ihaven't fallen off the edge of
this planet yet.
You know, um I just for flatearthers.
What do you think they thinklike you just fall off the edge
I don't think they think nah,just kidding, but nah are we
though no, okay so what I needhelp.
(01:26):
Okay, I am so far back into mymy old addiction of runescape.
I have to quit.
I have to quit.
You were gonna say like I wouldrather be addicted to heroin or
back on cigarettes.
I don't know what it is to beaddicted to heroin.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You just made it sound like it was one of your no
no, no, like I.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I don't know what it is.
Did you used to be addicted toheroin?
You just made it sound like itwas one of your.
No, no, no, like I don't knowwhat it is about this game.
Like you know me, I'll play agame for like two months, burn
out on it and not touch videogames for like six months.
I can't stop this stupidnostalgic game from my past.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So, for those of you that maybe don't know, zach and
I we actually haven't done it ina while, but the other I don't
even know I was having a mentalfucking breakdown, and so Zach
and I needed to do a FaceTimehangout.
So we'll do FaceTime hangouts,is my point of this.
And so he's doing a FaceTimehangout, but he's not facing me,
he's facing his computer.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I was escaping no XP waste baby.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Playing a game.
Oh my God, was escaping no xpwaste baby playing a game.
Oh my god.
Um, okay, so the saturday.
I don't even know what day isor day is today.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Oh, when's that ended ?
Why?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
yeah, so I guess it doesn't really matter.
But the other saturday I thinkit was just last saturday yeah,
last saturday, me and aaron headoff and I was kind of looking
for stuff that I could go do for, like a Patreon video or
whatever.
I found a gem, zach, and it isfive minutes from my house and I
don't know how I've lived herethis long and didn't know this
(02:56):
was here, and this is theweirdest thing.
I just I don't know.
This is so crazy to me.
So I'm looking up, I'm like, oh,I kind of want to go to an
oddity shop, though, because wedidn't really talk about last
video, but I painted my wallblack and it's going to be like
a gallery wall, so I have somestuff for it, but I need, you
know, some more stuff.
So I was going to oh, my knowabout this.
(03:24):
How is there an oddity shop ingrim blink?
Why is there?
Cute as fuck, you're gonna die.
I didn't buy anything becauseme and aaron went and I was like
, are you sure you actually wantto go and do this with me?
he was freaked out.
He was a trooper, he was, hewas a trooper, he very much was
a trooper.
But we get halfway there andaaron's like oh, we should have
printed out your flyerssomewhere for the event.
(03:46):
I said wow, you are so smart,sweetheart, except for we're
about pulling into this place.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You can always go back.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I could, but they're only open on Saturdays and
Sundays, oh weird.
Anyway, it's so cute and it's ahouse.
It's an old house, it's like ahundred year old house, and so
it's all done.
I took videos for Patreon.
It's.
They have some of the coolestfucking shit there.
I could have left witheverything.
And then they have um, so it'scalled oddballs antiques, and
then they have like one of theside rooms they kind of rent out
(04:14):
.
So one of the side rooms wasjust like this artist and it's
uh called paradox art.
So we follow both of them onour Instagram now, if anybody
wants to check them out, butyeah it was just so cool.
And then so aaron was like doyou think it's haunted in here?
And I was like honey, eitherthe house is haunted or one of
these objects is so I asked thelady I was like he wants to know
how haunted it is here.
(04:34):
And she just starts laughing.
She's like well, and then thegirl, like in the little art
room.
She's like yeah, there'sdefinitely a man here and she's
like a little boy, and they'reboth like nothing, like
malicious or whatever.
And so I asked him do you thinkit's from the house or from one
of these objects?
And they're like it'sdefinitely the house.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh, interesting, I would have thought the other.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's what I would have thought, but no.
So now I'm like me.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I should look up the history of that house, if I can,
because so, speaking though, ofyour gallery wall getting
things for that and hauntedobjects, jesus Christ, I finally
got notification that my chairsare on their way.
You haven't told them.
No, I bought some.
I was out in Arizona for a worktrip and Karen and I have been
(05:17):
talking about refreshing ouroffices a little bit and I've
been looking for these likeperfectly just creepy old chair,
and I found two of them andthey are beautiful, so perfect
but very, very creepy immaculateold carved cherubs on the
handles, perfect pricing.
I cannot wait for them to behere.
They are in the winnebago ontheir way to michigan.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
A cherub, because it almost looks more of like.
She looks more of like a littlegoddess or something to me, so
is that what it's considered?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I don't know I assume chera, because what you didn't
see from the pictures is that onthe side it is carved wings, I
think it's a fairy it could be.
I don't know, I'm gonna.
I can't wait for them to gethere so I can like get into the
maker's mark and really researchthem.
But yeah, I'm about 80, certainthey are um rj horners yeah,
you're telling me, you did somuch research.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
What did your mom say ?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, she's like pumped she goes.
Make sure, before you bringthem in your house, that you
spray them with sage and wipethem down with Florida water.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Dang, you were saying that and it made me think of
something.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Oh shit, better think quick Cheers, because it's
almost time to open the shop up.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
All right.
Well, maybe it'll come back tome.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Okay, maybe it will come back to you?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh, I know what it was it came back to you In a
couple of weeks Well, maybe,yeah, in a couple of weeks you
will see this vlog that Zacharymade for you, which is great,
but there's something in therethat he didn't fucking buy for
me and I'm so upset about it.
I'm not going to say what it is, because I don't want to ruin,
(06:47):
don't worry.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I added my commentary on this.
Why did you not bring?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
this home for me.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Oh, I have a feeling.
I know exactly what it is too.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Okay, now you can open up the shop.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Okay.
So I have a question for you.
Of course you do.
Okay, did you ever play jumprope as a kid?
Like not just jumping byyourself, but the one where,
like one person whole, or liketwo people one hold each end?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
and the person in the middle jumps yeah, what was
that thing in elementary schoolthat you had to do where you had
to jump for like the longeststreak to raise money?
For what?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
yeah, it was the american heart association for
jump.
It was like a heart healththing jump start your, your
heart.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
It's something like that I do know.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I remember that because I was always like the
worst at it, and it was, I hatedit.
Ok, anyways, though, do youremember the rhymes that would
go along with it?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Why can I only think about Ring Around the Rosie?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That one kind of works there was, like the
Cinderella dressed in yellow.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Oh yeah, my favorite is the Miss Mary Mac.
Are we going into?
Are you going to tell me aboutall these fucked up stories?
No Songs, ok, no.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
But I like the Miss Mary Mac ones because they were
always a little bit like on theverge of being inappropriate.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
OK, so we're going to stay with the rhymes for like
one second.
I'm going to read you one.
Okay, that is going to make you.
So we're not talking about manyof them, we're talking about
one specific one.
This one, though, is full ofmystery, murder and hauntings.
Are you ready for the rhyme?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
No, I'm really trying to figure out where we're going
with this.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
It'll take you two seconds once I start saying it.
Do you want me to give you acouple more seconds to guess?
Well, no, okay.
Lizzie Borden took an axe, gaveher mother 40 whacks.
When she saw what she had done,she gave her father 41.
Lizzie Borden got away and forher crimes she did not pay.
I think you probably know wherethis is going now.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I do, but okay.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
No, go on, Get it out first, because this is going to
be a long one.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
No, you had just texted me yesterday.
Something in the true crimeworld had come to light and you
want to make sure I wasn't doingthe same episode and I don't
know what Perfect that will betwo weeks from today, because I
had already written this one.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I'm talking about the one that I'm I'm writing right
now.
So that is you're thinking.
So I texted, carol, somethingto make sure we weren't doing
the same, because in two weeksteaser, I've got a big, big, big
big oh, you can edit that out,old, old.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
This is why my brain is like no, no, we're good,
we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So?
August 4th 1982?
Nope, august 4th 1982.
Nope, august 4th 1892.
Holy shit, that was tough.
Around 1110 am, a woman namedLizzie Borden stands in the
living room of 92 Second Streetin Fall River, massachusetts.
(09:39):
It is then according to herthat she discovers a bloody
sight and immediately yells fortheir live-in maid bridget,
shouting come quick, father'sdead, somebody came in and
killed him.
Bridget comes down the stairs.
She finds lizzie bordenstanding in the room where her
father had been recentlymurdered while he was napping on
the couch.
(10:00):
The site insanely gruesome.
A family doctor and police arecalled, and that's when they
discover something trulyhorrible had taken place, not
only to lizzie's father, andrewborden, but also her stepmother,
abby borden as well okay allright.
So you know me.
We're going backwards now.
(10:20):
Andrew borden.
He is born 1822, of english andwelsh descent.
He grew up super, super poor,um, but he eventually becomes
like a pretty, pretty wealthyguy.
He takes a wife named sarahmorse, you know, obviously
eventually borden, and he startsto get into like property
development and becomes a bankpresident and does furniture
(10:43):
sales, like this guy just kindof does a little bit of
everything yeah, he dabbled in alot um, but he becomes really
really financially well off.
But because of his upbringing hewas always like really frugal
and just stingy, stingy and andkind of like.
Um, he was never described asmean, but just grumpy and
(11:03):
unfriendly.
So he's not like outwardlynasty, but he's just not like an
approachable guy.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, it's just not like you wouldn't.
Yeah, he's just not like kind,but he's not maybe mean.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Right, like he's not going to call you an asshole to
your face, but he's going tostare at you, yeah.
However, though, him and Sarahbuild a comfortable life
together.
They buy a fairly nice home inFall River, massachusetts.
In this home that Sarah givesbirth to two children, first
Emma and then Lizzie.
So fairly normal upbringing atfirst, but when Emma is 12 and
(11:35):
Lizzie is just three years old,they lose their mother, sarah,
unfortunately to what was listedas uterine congestion.
I guess this is just like anold-timey way of saying
something with the uterus.
Yeah, they just don't know RightLikely in this case they think
(11:55):
it was either cancer or anectopic pregnancy.
Unfortunately, she was only 39years old when she passed away,
which is just like.
That's so sad, although I feellike for 1892, that would have
put her at 27, when she had herfirst kid, which feels rather
old for the time that does feelreally old.
Beside that point, though it'ssad, we're gonna move on from
(12:17):
that it's only gonna get moresad.
The girls, though they had alike pretty normal upbringing.
They were involved in thechurch, especially Lizzie, so
she was involved in a ton ofchurch activities, teaching the
Sunday school businesses relatedto church.
So they also kind of grew uphaving this love-hate
(12:38):
relationship with their father.
So, like I said, he was notmean, he just wasn't kind and he
was very well off but verystingy.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I feel like everybody knows somebody that has that
type of friend, that has like aparent that's just like not a
loving parent.
They're not a bad parent, theyprovide, but they're just not a
loving, nurturing parent.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
So I think that was kind of his and he just made
some like really weird decisions.
So, unlike the cheap part, thatjust doesn't make sense.
So they live in like a reallynice, really beautiful home, but
he skipped out on puttingindoor plumbing on, which was
even quite prevalent on likeless valuable homes at the time
no, wasn't this home, though.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
As much as it was really nice, it was almost still
like a very like.
Poor is not the right word, buthe definitely could have got a
way bigger, more extravaganthome I mean it's pretty large
right there's three floors butlike, yeah, he could have
afforded a much better home andit had no bells and whistles, no
, anything like that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
What also really didn't help the relationship
with the father and the kids isthat just three years after the
uh, lizzie and emma's mom passed, he takes a new wife, uh abby
gray, who becomes abby borden.
Emma and lizzie really feellike she married their father
for his money well, theyprobably feel like it's pretty
(14:00):
quick too, like you don't it wasquick and then they even got
married really quickly and shedidn't come from much but that
was kind of common around.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Like you kind of married quickly because you
almost need somebody to takeover the home right, and that's
pretty much exactly why hemarries her right is so that she
would take care of the home.
However, uh, miss abby, ain'tabout that life.
So it said like together theyturned the home into a loveless
(14:30):
place that caused the girls tofeel neglected.
So it kind of seemed like theywere just kind of doing their
own thing.
You know newlyweds she's kindof.
I.
I think she was marrying him,but she wasn't ready to be a
stepmom.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, which unfortunately, I think that that
type of shit happens a lot ohyeah.
Even now.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So then too, of course, with her.
You know, not wanting to takecare of the home, they had to
hire a live-in nanny.
So her name is Bridget Sullivan, an Irish immigrant who's there
to basically keep the houseThroughout the years.
The five live in the same house, right?
So Abby and Andrew, then wehave the two girls and then
Bridget, and the tensions arealways kind of like, like I said
, it goes love-hate, it goeshigh, low.
Emma and Lizzie really feellike Dad's way too tight with
(15:19):
the money, but he has noproblems giving Abby and her
family some really lavish gifts,even giving some of them homes.
Okay, yeah, that's crazy, whichis especially egregious when
his two now adult childrenliving in their 30s still live
with him.
I don't know, sometimes theyget along, other times not at
(15:40):
all.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Which, though, that was also common too, though for
everyone to continuously livewith each other until you got
married off.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, and I couldn't figure out why, like both Emma
and Abby or not Abby Lizzie,into their 30s, had not married.
There's some weird dynamicsgoing on.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Why are you into your 30s and not married?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Okay, well, that's just because nobody's good
enough.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Well then, there you go.
But in the 1800s I would havebeen married off by now for sure
, okay, so, anyway.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
so the girls do get a small win from their dad and
they demand that he gives themone of his rental properties,
which he sells them for a dollar.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Now I couldn't really figure out, like I know they
volunteered for the church anddid all these things, but I
couldn't figure out if theyworked.
I don't think they did.
No, so I don't know why andthis is totally conjecture, but
this whole thing gives me likekardashian spinoffs, like where
chloe and courtney just likelive in houses in random city
paid for by their parents sothey could just like go have
adventures, yes, exactly, okay.
Again, I have no basis for that, but like that's just how
you're feeling your vibes?
yeah they do move into their ownplace.
Um, but a few weeks beforewhere this story started, on
(16:49):
august 4th 1892, the girlsactually sell the property back
to their father and move in withhim.
Do you know how much?
They sold it back to him?
For two dollars, five thousand,okay.
So it's just, I don't it's.
They seem to really base theirrelationship off money.
Ok, so the live and made thosesays that, like the girls hardly
(17:10):
ate meals with their father andthat things like the tensions
are just getting really high.
So again to a couple monthsbefore August and May.
Andrew, according to Bridget,had killed a bunch of pigeons
that were in the barn, ok, witha hatchet.
Andrew, according to Bridget,had killed a bunch of pigeons
that were in the barn, okay,with a hatchet.
Okay, believing that they wereattracting local youth to come
hunt them.
(17:30):
Well, this was kind of like afinal straw for Miss Lizzie,
because she had taken a likingto the birds, made a roost for
them and she was really upsetabout this.
That is very upsetting.
So that's May.
By July nothing had beenresolved and a giant argument
happened.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Do you know why the girls moved back?
Wasn't it something theyweren't doing?
I feel like I could be makingthis up, but they just weren't
equipped to take care ofthemselves by themselves in the
house, something like that, itkind of seems like.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I think they wanted independence, but I think at the
same time, they were alsoreally spoiled while feeling
like they were spoiled OK yeah.
So anyways, like, yeah, now thisfamily arguments going on
through July and that promptsthe sisters to take an extended
vacation to New Bedford.
Then they return home just acouple of days before these
(18:23):
upcoming murders.
Ok, home just a couple daysbefore these upcoming murders,
okay, now, at the same time thatthey come home, john morse,
who's the brother of the latesarah borden.
He's also coming to stay at thehome for a few days to discuss
business with andrew.
Okay, important to note, he's abutcher by trade, but he also
came to speak with andrew.
Some property, okay, while theydon't eat together, they all
(18:45):
eat the same food and they getsuper, super sick.
And now they are all stuck inthe house together, except for
Emma.
Emma was likely with a malesuitor at the time.
Okay, john, andrew, bridget,abby and Lizzie all super sick,
all locked in a house together,when they're all not getting
along and it sounds likeeverything with John Morse and
(19:07):
Andrew isn't going so hot Ugh.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Sounds like a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Oh, total nightmare fuel.
Just the tensions running inthis house.
You probably felt like youcould cut it with a knife Mm,
mm-mm-mm Right now.
How are you feeling about thetension Now?
You know we're going into theday of the murder.
I know you know that, but like,do you have any suspects who
are sticking out to you Anything?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (19:33):
You guys are all going to be so mad at me.
I really don't have anythoughts on this case.
I mean, I have a lot, but Idon't know why I really cannot
tell you this.
I don't know why, but this casemakes me very sad in so many
ways.
I have no connection to it inany way, I don't.
I don't know why, but I justsome.
(19:53):
For whatever reason, I feellike this case is not my
business.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
OK, that's that's fair, because it is one of those
ones that is just like it couldbe anyone.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, and I just feel like, and I don't know why,
because I don't feel like thatwith a lot of cases, but this
case has always stuck with mesince the stupid little school
rhyme that I just feel likethere's something about it that
we don't know.
It's not our place, that wedon't know it's not our place.
I don't know.
I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Perfect.
So do you want to jump backinto it, since it's not your
place?
But I'm still going to tell youall the gruesome details.
Sure, cool.
So this brings us back to themorning of August 4th.
All right, but, like I said,emma's not home.
(20:39):
But we do know john was in thehouse, andrew, abby, bridget and
lizzie.
So between the hours of six andseven, andrew and abby wake up,
bridget starts to clean thehouse and john morse.
He has breakfast and then heleaves to visit relatives where
he's buying a pair of oxes.
Okay, after about seven o'clock,before eight, andrew and abby
complain of feeling unwell.
They're still kind of sufferingfrom the food poisoning.
(20:59):
Breakfast is served, they startto eat, but lizzie apparently
refuses to eat breakfast thismorning.
Okay, between eight and nine,andrew leaves for his usual
morning walk.
Bridget is ordered by abby tothe windows outside, despite the
fact that there is like intensesummer heat, and Lizzie is
(21:20):
either upstairs inside doing Godonly knows what or, as she
claims, she was out in the barnlooking for fishing sinkers.
Ok, so that takes us rightabout to nine o'clock.
Okay, so nine o'clock, abbyborden goes upstairs to the
guest bedroom to make the bed,which is usually bridget's job,
but with bridget working outside, she uh takes care of it.
(21:44):
And then at about 10 45, thenext thing we know, because
bridget saw abby go upstairs,right but, we have no idea what
happens between 9 30 and 10 45ish, but um, between 10, 30 and
10 45.
Andrew returns home from hiswalk and he tries to get in the
front door but it's locked andeven with his key he can't get
(22:07):
it to budge.
Bridget comes and lets him inbecause she had come in from the
intense heat to go take alittle rest.
Well, yeah, and as she's comingto the door, she notes that she
heard Lizzie laughing from thetop of the stairs.
Okay, which contradicts theclaim that Lizzie was out in the
barn.
(22:28):
So she lets in Andrew.
She's still really tired fromthe heat.
So she goes up to her thirdlevel bedroom to go take a nap.
Andrew also feeling a littlewiped out, still sick, he lays
down on the sitting room sofa torest as well.
Okay, that's till about between10 45 and 11 10 and, as we said
(22:48):
earlier, 11 10 is where 32 yearold lizzie discovers somebody
has entered the house, murderedher father, and she yells for
bridget.
Okay, the first to arriveunseen are two neighbors, mrs
churchill and the family doctor.
The family doctor actuallylived across the street, which
is super convenient, yeah.
And they come in and discoverthe mess that andrew had become
(23:11):
yeah then go upstairs todiscover that in the guest
bedroom is the body of abbyborden, also brutally murdered,
and the police are alerted rightaway.
So the police come in, theystart their investigation and
they determine between 9 and 930 that abby was facing the bed,
possibly making it, when shewas struck from behind with a
(23:33):
hatchet.
She then fell face down betweenthe bed and the dresser, where
she is struck a total of 19times mostly to the back of her
head.
Yeah, the force literally justcrushes her skull.
She has exposed bone and braineverywhere.
It's horrifying.
And there's a lot of driedblood which suggests she had
(23:54):
been dead for quite some time,right Before Andrew was murdered
, because when the police arriveher blood is dried.
His is still wet.
Ok, that's how we.
We placed that murder at aboutnine.
Then we know 1045 is whenAndrew came home.
He was asleep by about 11.
This time the killer attacksfrom above, delivering 10 or 11
(24:15):
blows to his face and head.
One literally like clean splitshis eye.
That's crazy.
Um, his nose completely severed.
I mean, his face was somutilated that it was just
unrecognizable yeah you.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You wouldn't even be able to tell who he was if it
wasn't in his own home on hisfucking couch absolutely like we
said earlier to abby dry.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
He is still actively bleeding, so we know that there
was at least some time.
So the murderer had to havebeen in the home at the same
time that Bridget lets Andrewback in, right, and then she
goes upstairs to sleep.
Now Lizzie, remember, said shewas out in the barn to the
police, but Bridget also saysshe hears her laughing at the
(24:57):
top of the stairs.
Okay, so some other detailsthat came about from the
investigation.
Murder weapon is believed to bea hatchet and they are fairly
certain they found it in thebasement with the handle broken
off.
Oh yeah, now there's twohatchets in the basement, one
that's really old, old and dirty, this broken one that was kind
of made to look old and dirty.
(25:19):
Whoever the killer was, theyshowed that they had extreme
strength because they nearlydecapitated andrew and crushed
abby's skull.
Based on where the attackstarted, they think that andrew
seemed to be more personalbecause his face was
specifically targeted, and thenneither of them fought back,
(25:39):
showing that it was an ambush.
Okay, do you have a thought?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
No, okay, I really don't.
I mean I like I can picturethis because I've thoroughly
watched so much on this and likelisten to so much, so I can
like picture it.
I hope everyone else kind ofcan oh yeah.
To me it's kind of like this isa really old house, though, and
you can't quietly travelthrough this home, if that makes
(26:03):
sense.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Right, the weird thing is there's so many people.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, but the fact that she thought she heard
Lizzie upstairs laughing for herto then just like get down the
stair, like, like, so she's atthe door no, I know the stairs
behind her when this happens.
It's not a great distance no, no, but what I'm saying is the
house.
This is a older home even then,like it's loud, it's not meant.
(26:29):
It's not built like homes today, right, like where everything
is quiet.
So for her to say that she wasat the top of the stairs, then I
get it, but then where did shego?
You would have like heard heryeah, I, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
No, that's.
The thing is, though, is likenobody's stories make sense
because john morse didn't comeback with oxes bridget's doesn't
make sense because, like theother thing too is, I can't find
anything in her story from whenshe was out cleaning windows to
when she came inside.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Well, that's what I'm saying, because then it's like
even if you were cleaningwindows again, these homes are
not built like ours you can heareverything.
So if she was outside cleaningwindows, I would think even on
the second floor you would hearsomebody being brutally murdered
, like with the hatchet, likeeven if they weren't screaming
or anything.
I think you'd hear like somecommotion, right, but then again
(27:20):
, how do you not hear thatcommotion?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
on the second floor if you're laying on the couch on
the first floor.
Well, that's.
The thing is, she was deadbefore he walked back in the
house.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah, I know, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
So the police do start to, you know, interview
everybody, collect all theevidence.
They immediately suspect lizzieas the only possible attacker
because while everyone else'sstories stayed the same, hers
changes multiple times aboutwhere she was, what she was
doing.
She at one point said that shelike thought abby was out with a
friend and she left a notestating she was gone, but like
(27:55):
never was able to produce a note.
A lot of her stuff doesn't makesense.
And they also noted that herdemeanor was way too put
together for somebody who justdiscovered their father brutally
murdered.
Okay, the night after gets evenweirder lizzie, emma, emma comes
back, john Morse and Bridgetall stay in the house.
(28:17):
Police are stationed around andat one point they can see
Lizzie enter the cellar with akerosene lamp and a slot pail.
You couldn't see exactly whatshe was doing, but it looked
like she had been bent over asink cleaning clothes, and
people suspect it was maybecleaning blood off the side of
the clothes if she committedthese murders.
Now, the hardest part about allthis is not only were all they,
people suspect it was maybecleaning blood off the set of
the clothes if she committedthese murders.
(28:37):
Ok, now, the hardest part aboutall this is not only were all
they staying in the house thatnight, so were Abby and Andrew,
because their autopsies areperformed, basically starting at
the house because the familydoctor.
They're laid out on like thedining room table for a long
time and they're part of thisautopsy.
They did remove the skulls.
(28:58):
This, like you know, it's awell-off family, well known.
Public was horrified andnewspapers start to
sensationalize the case rightaway.
Okay, so now not only are thepolice outside, but like
basically this mob of peoplealong with the mayor trying to
figure out what happened.
So the the mayor and the policeenter the home and basically
look at Liz and go, hey, you'reour only suspect, which you'd
(29:20):
think would make her actstraight.
No, the next day morning she isfound ripping up a dress,
possibly the one she wascleaning in the cellar, and
saying she was going to burn itbecause it was covered in paint.
Oh yeah, I know.
So here's my thing.
I know it looks damning forLizzie, but I think John and
(29:43):
Bridget are just as culpable ofthis.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, they kind of all are, I mean, and that's.
I think that's why this casehas been so sensationalized for
years, because, number one, itwas like sensationalized because
a 32 year old petite femaleright brutally murdered two
people with an axe and like howcould she do that?
blah, blah, blah.
But then it was like there's somany other factors into this
(30:09):
that, like you just said,nothing makes sense, but also
everything could actually add up.
True, and I think what we knownow is that people act so
different when they're facedwith people dying, especially
like if it was a brutal thinglike this, like it's not just
like a quote, unquote, normal.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Everyone handles grief very differently.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
She could have just been like how many times have
you broke something Cause you'reupset?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Almost every time I break something Right.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So it's like.
To me, her ripping up a dresscould just literally be like
anger, like this dress had painton it, like fuck it, and just
like destroying it because she'supset.
Do you get what I mean Like?
So it's like yes.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I totally get what you mean and the jury had the
same thought process as you.
Basically, let's spend I wantto spend just like a couple
short minutes on the trial so wecan get to the really fun parts
, okay, so super long trial maytestifies she claims she didn't
hear witness the murders, eventhough she was in or just
(31:05):
outside the home that's what shestrongly states that she heard
lizzie laughing from the top ofthe stairs and that even as she
turned, she saw somebody upthere.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So she also said she saw, yeah, did you calculate how
much five thousand dollars was?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
nope, okay, but it's a lot.
You know what I mean just keepgoing.
Yeah, I just had, I was justthinking so the uncle testifies
next, and he stays true to hisstory that he wasn't home when
it occurred.
Like I said, though, no, ox um,emma really doesn't testify too
much about the day of themurder, but she gives family
statements.
Lizzie has this exact quote tosay I was in the barn when
(31:41):
father was murdered.
Somebody must have come in offthe street and killed him.
This is another damning point.
For lizzie, though, when andrewreturned from his walk, he
couldn't get the door to work.
Bridget had to let him in, sothere is no way a stranger could
have done this.
Okay, the defense is trying tosay somebody random must have
(32:01):
come in, and they don't have anydirect evidence of lizzie's
wrongdoing.
The prosecutor, they hang onthe maid's testimony of lizzie
being in the home at the top ofthe stairs near the guest
bedroom, the strange behaviorswith the cellar and right and
the lack of there being forcedentry because, like you, would
have had to bust that door if itwas somebody just coming in.
(32:21):
The prosecutors also point outmotive right, so lizzie had been
upset that abby was receivingso much of her father's
belongings, and obviously Ithink I think her and emma were
a little not spoiled becausethey weren't getting it, but
they had a taste for nicerthings, right?
Yeah, one of the key points ofthe prosecution's tactic is
(32:43):
during the trial.
The reason the skulls weretaken during the autopsy is they
wanted to present them asevidence In this moment where
they were going to show all thehatchet blows.
And Lizzie, when she saw thecrushed skull, she'd faint in
court.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Or no, she'd not faint.
Sorry that she would freak outand admit to it.
And no, instead she, she faints.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, because wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh, yeah, but like they thought, like it would make
her, just you know, confess no.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I mean, I do get that thought process in a way, but
what the fuck is wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
right.
So the fact that, like she waskind of tiny and that she didn't
, that there was lack of a clearmurder weapon and that
everything is circumstantial, onjune 20th 1893, after only 90
minutes of deliberation, she'sfound not guilty.
What I find is really weird isshe lives the rest of her life
(33:39):
in fall river, is a totaloutcast and just stayed there.
I don't know I I probably wouldhave loved well, she moved to
the.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Didn't her and her sister move to the other
property that they once bought?
Yes, yep, but still in fall.
Yeah, I think that you wouldleave I don't know why you did
it if you did it, I think thatyou'd leave right because you're
gonna get the money or whatever.
But, um, really quick, fivethousand dollars in today's
(34:07):
money is worth a hundred andseventy three thousand dollars,
four hundred, whatever.
I'll keep going.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I don't need to keep going, but yeah, got a ton of
money from that's.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
That was what my point was.
They already had plenty ofmoney to live off of for a very
long time.
I I start to think somethingabout.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, I go back to those pigeons and especially
the way they were killed withthe hatchet, but you know.
So the tensions, right, andeverything that we have going
around lizzie, that gives hermotive.
Um, the maid could have beenpissed because, you know, abby
was supposed to take care of thehouse.
She's now being demanded to doit and she could have lied about
laugh, or abby, oh sorry, liedabout lizzie laughing upstairs,
(34:49):
right to kind of put it on herthe lizard laughing upstairs
doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I don't know why that part fucking, that's the part
that makes me kind of think it'sthe maid a little bit.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But then.
But then there's john morse.
Remember, butcher by trade.
He would have actually had thestrength to do this.
He came to talk business withandrew and they argued over
money and property.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Here's what I'll say the butcher by trade part.
I really could give a shitabout that, I could give less
about, because everybody was afucking butcher.
Then you know what I mean.
I don't really care about that.
I know it's a big part aboutthis case is like it's a good,
like a point, and let me alsojust say that I don't really
care if you're the most petiteperson in the world.
(35:32):
If you wanted to ask somebodyto death, you could fucking ask
somebody to death.
So I don't really know aboutthat.
Like I don't care about thosetwo parts.
I've always, I think, like whenI was younger, I thought it was
Lizzie, because everybody saidit was Lizzie.
So you just believe it.
I just don't actually think itis.
I don't.
I don't because I think that ifit was, you would take the
(35:54):
money that you got, you'd leave,you wouldn't stay.
There's no reason.
There would be no reason foryou to stay.
But you and your sister alsogot what did?
I just say $170,000 for sellingthat property back.
If you really were miserable inthis life, you would have just
taken that money and left.
Truly, it doesn't make sensefor you to keep staying there.
(36:16):
There's nothing that you'reprofiting.
Your dad's not loving yourstepmom isn't loving.
Okay, so you have a maid, butyou guys are miserable.
It doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
It seems like everyone was just living in
misery, and honestly, I don'tknow.
I'm going to keep my thoughtson what I think happened for a
little bit more.
Okay, so nobody is everconvicted, though.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
I mean, if I guess, still unsolved.
Yeah, if I had to pick somebodywhich I really don't want to,
because, like I said, I don'tknow why this case just makes me
feel weird I would pick thebrother-in-law, because how many
murder cases do we hear, though, that are about business?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
they're about deals and money and things like that
so hold on to that, okay for alittle bit.
Obviously still unsolved,though, and we know it's a huge
pop culture thing.
I mean, how many documentariesmovies you know everything out
there.
Most of them, like we say,though, they focus on lizzie uh.
There's another set of thedocumentaries, though, which
(37:17):
makes this the oddity.
The lizzie borden house ishaunted as shit yep by the
bordens and many other spirits,and, honestly, this place gives
me somewhat vibes like theconjuring house, where it's like
, yeah, there's the main story,but there seems to be a lot of
other stuff going on.
But everyone's been throughhere, you know, kindred spirit,
(37:38):
so amy and adam dead files,ghost adventures.
It's considered one of the mosthaunted locations in america.
Sorry, don't go right now.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
It has not great owners not good owners, which
I'm sorry.
Let's just take a side note.
Why do all of these greatplaces have just terrible owners
?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I don't know.
It definitely attracts someLike the conjuring.
The.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Villisca axe.
I've always wanted to go tothat house.
They've turned it into an axe,throwing the basement into an
actual axe throwing.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I think a lot of people see how sensational the
places are and just see thedollar signs.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
You don't even need to do that to make dollar signs
in your hands.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I think it's just investor minded people getting
into a situation they don't knowabout you need to buy these
places, Zachary.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, we do oh my God, subscribe to our Patreon so we
can buy these houses.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
We'll let you stay there for free.
That's part of being a Patreon.
Okay, new tier coming soon.
Stay there for free, that'spart of being a Patreon.
Okay, new tier coming soon.
Paranormal investors All right.
So some of the common thingsthat happen, though.
So there's a lot of disembodiedvoices and whispers.
People hear murmuring voicesand hushed conversations.
Sometimes you hear a womancrying softly, which a lot of
(38:49):
people think it's Abby Borden,reliving her brutal death.
One of the biggest thing,though, is like these phantom
sounds a lot of heavy footsteps,especially like on the
staircases, the bedrooms a lotof like sounds of shuffling,
just weird thuds, a lot of thatseems to be focused around the
guest bedroom doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
um, I think they say it almost sounds like furniture
is being moved.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, okay, um, and then every now and then, people
have reported like the sound oflike a hatchet striking
something which has a pretty,you know, unique thunk.
Oh, there's also full bodyapparition, so a figure of a man
in a suit that a lot of peoplethink is andrew, a woman in
victorian clothing that a lot ofpeople think is abby, or also a
(39:34):
distant borden relative.
We'll get back into them, butthey just seem to kind of like
all these shadowy figures lurkaround the house, lots of people
being touched here.
Um, it's like you feel coldhands on you while you're
sleeping or being pushed, orlike lightly scratching the back
of your head.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Oh, but you would love that.
What do you mean?
You used to beg me to do thatevery day at work.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, but you never killed people by putting a
hatchet through the back oftheir head.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Well, you don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
The person that is scratching is the person that
killed people that's true, um,for some reason, there's a lot
of children giggling around thehouse.
No, which many investigatorshave collected evidence that
like it's spears that are notjust the Borden's, but there's a
lot of other entities that seemto be attached to the land.
She's a portal.
Oh yeah, lots of poltergeistactivities, so furniture,
(40:28):
silverware and books all movingaround without explanation.
Guests have had things thrownat them, um, or they wake up and
their items are like relocatedor missing.
Then you, you got the typicalshit.
You know emf, evps.
You've got battery drainhappening.
The most common evps that wehear are help me leave, and why
(40:50):
did you do this?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
yes, the why did you do this is mind-blowing to me.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
So I put I didn't put together a theory.
I'm taking a theory that wasput together by some other
people.
So I watched a ton of theinvestigations for this episode,
but there was one that I reallywanted to watch that I haven't
seen before I didn't oh wow, butI did watch the curse of lizzie
borden, which is a shock doc ondiscovery.
(41:16):
Plus, uh and this features ahandful of people.
You might know one, daveschrader, who's done a ton of
investigation.
Uh, just a great human being,yes, hilarious to be around.
Uh, chris fleming okay, whichalso huge shout out to Chris for
kicking cancer's ass this yearand he's recovering very well.
(41:37):
And our buddy, sam Beltrusis,oh yeah, we've met him a handful
of times.
Kind of background right.
So, dave, longtime investigator, he leads this excursion over
multiple days into the house I'msorry, there's also a woman
named Luanne Jolly there.
So he brings in Luanne Jolly.
She's a local investigator andwriter.
(41:58):
Sam, who's a clairvoyant authorand distant relative of the
Bordens.
And we have his books?
Yes, we do.
And then there's Chris Fleming.
He's an investigator and amedium as well.
So they want to come in and useall the investigative and their
personal mediumship tools,because they're kind of positing
(42:21):
evidence that something darkermight be going on.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Sam has done a ton of family history and they kind of
research.
There's a long line of deathsin the Borden family, with
family members killing otherfamily members, like this aunt
who killed her two kids rightyes, and that's so weird and a
lot of people seem to think thatthe spirit activity, that
they're picking up the EVPs orthe kids are actually this part
(42:49):
of the family and Tsitsi, orwhatever oh, actually this part
of the family or whatever.
Oh, now there's also evidencethat shows that john morse the
uncle, he might have been alittle bit into the occult.
Okay, it's not provable, butthere's theories around it.
Theories, right.
So throughout this documentarythey do.
It's really, really interestingbecause they use a lot of the
(43:10):
electronics, you know, evps,emfs, and they get a lot of
really interesting, very Bordenrelated but then very dark and
sinister.
They do spirit writing.
It's really interesting towatch Dave Schrader go through a
spirit writing where you canjust tell he is uncomfortable
with how his hand is moving.
They do a whole sand.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Oh, that's creepy.
Yeah, when you can physicallytell that's creepy.
Yeah, it's a very physicallytell somebody's uncomfortable,
it's very oh, and multiple timesthroughout this.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
I mean sam has to leave a whole bunch.
Well, one of the times he openshimself up, he's sitting on the
sofa.
So that was you know well, andbecause he's a distant relative,
I feel like it does probablyaffect him differently they also
were getting this name a lotlike avlo envelope and kept
feeling like he was kind of thisdark spirit so don't say that
(43:59):
name too many times here's kindof what they put together with
the documentary that thephysical murderer was likely
lizzie but almost in aAmityville horror sense yes, a
dissociation had occurred whereand it had possibly occurred
throughout their family.
(44:20):
Is this like ongoing curse?
That it's this dark spiritattached to them, those tensions
high, keeps them all fightinguntil lizzie dissociates and
snaps.
And maybe john morse was doingsome of the occult.
I feel like, honestly, all ofthem could have been into it,
because if there's a dark spiritattaching itself to them, they
(44:42):
all could have played adifferent role in these murders
yeah, to make it and not evenreally realized it right like if
they were in a dissociativestate.
I'll go with that.
So that's to me where it kindof feels like everyone had a
hand in this and that's why itbecomes so hard.
That's why it's so weird andthat's why people get such weird
(45:03):
feelings around it.
Because, yes, they were thephysical reason it occurred, but
not maybe intrinsicallymotivated to do it.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, I don't.
When I watched the Sam andColby one, I don't remember if
they touched on that part, butI've definitely heard about that
vaguely.
Um but they did bring um SethBorden.
So if you've ever watchedSeth's videos he's a distant
relative of Lizzie Borden,obviously Borden.
And he was getting in someweird things like the um,
obviously borden, and he wasgetting in some weird things
(45:33):
like it the um evps and stuffkept saying seth and stuff like
that.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
So I think they were like you know it, it kind of,
seems I, I don't know obviouslyright, we don't have any
evidence of it being hauntedbefore the bordens, but it does
seem like it it's a familyhaunting it.
Well, it's like family andthese other dark spirits inside,
I don't know.
It reminds me a whole lot ofit's kind of like the Amityville
horror story and the conjuringpushed together a little bit.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Well, because we're not saying, we can't say it's
the house, because they it's not, like this house was
generational.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
No, it's not.
I don't think it's the housefor sure.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's something following the family or attached
to the family, the Borden.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And now it's definitely attached to that
property.
Well, yeah, so let me ask youthis If there were different
owners involved, right?
So like, take the owners out ofthe equation, would I go yeah.
Okay, so we're adding it to theroad trip at some point.
We'll wait for it to changehands.
But anyways, though, that isthe story of the murders, the
trials, the hauntings and thepossible demonic influence that
(46:38):
all had a hand in the LizzieBorden axe murders.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Good job.
Yeah, I don't know why this onealways, just because I don't
think, I just don't feel likeit's, I don't feel like she did
it.
I'm right there with you,because if she did, I agree with
the way like it was a psychosisor something putting because I
just, I don't know, doesn't addup to me then there's so much
evidence against lizzie.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
But you're right, like I still just don't believe
so that would also explain, like, could you imagine if you get
rid of the, the darkness out ofit?
Right, but like, say, you dranka whole lot and you blacked out
and the next day you woke upwith bloody clothes around you.
Like, yeah, you're going to beweird and go clean them in the
basement or whatnot, like andhold yourself like nothing
(47:23):
happened.
If you didn't remember whathappened and you think like
there might be evidence tyingyou to it, I'm getting rid of it
.
I'm going to act weird too.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, tying you to it .
I'm getting rid of it.
I'm gonna act weird too.
Yeah, yeah, but here's thething like when they said that,
like they were watching, shelike went into the basement,
it's like I'm sorry, but ifthere's an investigation, you
should have found those bloodyclothes.
And then, number two if you'restaking out the house for the
sake of the investigation, thenyou would go into the house and
you would see what she was doingyeah, there was.
(47:52):
There was a lot of things sayingthat they botch it and honestly
, I could have turned this intoa two or three parter to get way
more into the details of of howbad the police did here yeah,
no, I do know that it wasdefinitely botched um, but I'm
just saying like it, there'sjust way too many things that
like don't make sense, likedon't add up, and it's like why
(48:15):
was, why were like?
Okay, so I guess emma stayedout, but like, is that a normal
thing?
Did she normally came out withsuitors, like, did she like?
But we don't actually knowwhere she?
Was out to.
We're just saying that that's.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
The other thing too is a lot of people assume she
was with a suitor, but theydon't have full evidence on that
either.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
So that's why it's like okay, she could have very
well done that.
And it's like the laugh thing,like hearing her laugh, that
just is so fucking stupid to me.
I'm sorry, but like when do weever just laugh out loud by
ourselves?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
It's so fucking rare, like unless she was in a
dissociative state doing this.
That could very well.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
But I still go back to.
If you look at videos of thishouse, I just don't feel like
there's a way that you can getaround this house without being
heard.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
No, there's no way.
All three of them who werethere and survived it, didn't
know something.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
And then the other thing, bridget was just sleeping
on the third floor.
Well, and then so this is myother.
Sorry, I totally forgot aboutthis.
This has always been my otherthing, because everybody got
sick except for Emma because shewas away from food, right, yeah
, so to me my thing has alwaysbeen was somebody trying to
poison everybody?
Speaker 2 (49:31):
so that they can just they can be easily killed.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Okay, well, everybody was sick.
I guess you could fake beingsick, but everybody ate the food
.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, so it's like, and that's why I didn't even go
into that, because like.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
But see, that's my thing has always been like okay.
Well, if we all ate this foodthinking that it's Okay, let's
just say I poison the food andthey're, they're all going to be
sick and it's going to be somuch easier for me to subdue
them all and kill them all.
But we've got bridget, who'sfine because she's outside
fucking cleaning windows yeah,well, this is days after too.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
They had already started to recover.
Oh, so that's the other thingright, like if you were
poisoning people, like maybethey, whoever was going to do it
, got cold feet maybe I don't,don't know, but I've always
thought something with the foodwas weird.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
And I get it.
It's 18, whatever, so the foodyou got a lot on accident.
But like I don't know there'sjust so many things, and like I
do think that the brother-in-lawlike to me, that just makes
sense.
I mean, yes, children killtheir parents for so many
different reasons, but moneybusiness transaction.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
He had a lot of motive.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
That has so many reasons.
Like yeah, I don't know, but ifyou do watch investigations you
do get a lot of people thatwill walk out saying that they
don't believe Lizzie did it.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Yeah, and that's.
There's a lot of EVPs.
I don't know man, this is justa hard one.
Here's the deal.
It's a typical oddity shop,right?
We're never going to know,however.
However, in two weeks, on mynext episode, I promise you I'm
doing one that starts with truecrime.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
And that we will know .
Speaker 2 (51:05):
And that's had recent developments, so we have a nice
bow to put on top of this, andI'm so excited, I am so excited.
So, anyways, though, that's thelazy modern story for you, as
far as we know it well, thanks,that was a good job, you're
welcome what a job you're suchan idiot um, okay, so we need an
(51:27):
emoji, kara.
Um, what about an axe?
in the house yeah, axe in thehouse.
I think that works if you arestill listening.
Always need more write-ins,call-ins of your personal
stories, please.
We've got some on deck, but wedon't quite have enough for an
episode yet.
Leave us a review if you want,and you are always more than
welcome to hang out with us onpatreon if you so choose yes, I
(51:49):
would actually appreciate thepatreon people actually coming
around to us more.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
I'm always or not I'm we're always giving you stuff.
Come in there, chat with us,text us in our little group
chatty chats.
Tell me what cool things you'redoing, I don't really care.
You could literally tell methat you brushed your cat.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Hey, you know, for some people that's really
exciting, I know.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Like for me, me, I'm gonna go hang out with small cat
as soon as we're done.
So, with that being said, Iwant to go hang out with a cat.
Let's close up the shop with acat, do all those things.
Uh, we love you, we appreciateyou.
The most important thing youcan do for us is to creep a real
yeah balls.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Goodbye.
We'll be right back In theshadows At the Alicia At home
(52:55):
with the oddballs At the Alicia.
The door's always open At theAlicia.
I want to dance with the Malt Men At the IA shop,
Baked in the moonlight At the IAshop.
Creep through the graveyard Tothe IA shop.
The door's always open At theIA shop.
(00:29):
Welcome back to the Oddity Shop, you oddballs.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm your curator Kara , with your curator Zachary, and
this is the podcast where wetell you creepy, odd, weird,
strange, bizarre stories fromaround the globe, or flat earth,
depending on what you believe.
How are you doing today?
Wait first of all before.
How are you doing flat eartheror round earther?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
round earther perfect .
Speaker 2 (00:59):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I'm doing fabulous.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm so glad I'm doing okay.
I am uh, I'm just glad Ihaven't fallen off the edge of
this planet yet.
You know, um I just for flatearthers.
What do you think they thinklike you just fall off the edge
I don't think they think nah,just kidding, but nah are we
though no, okay so what I needhelp.
(01:26):
Okay, I am so far back into mymy old addiction of runescape.
I have to quit.
I have to quit.
You were gonna say like I wouldrather be addicted to heroin or
back on cigarettes.
I don't know what it is to beaddicted to heroin.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You just made it sound like it was one of your no
no, no, like I.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I don't know what it is.
Did you used to be addicted toheroin?
You just made it sound like itwas one of your.
No, no, no, like I don't knowwhat it is about this game.
Like you know me, I'll play agame for like two months, burn
out on it and not touch videogames for like six months.
I can't stop this stupidnostalgic game from my past.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So, for those of you that maybe don't know, zach and
I we actually haven't done it ina while, but the other I don't
even know I was having a mentalfucking breakdown, and so Zach
and I needed to do a FaceTimehangout.
So we'll do FaceTime hangouts,is my point of this.
And so he's doing a FaceTimehangout, but he's not facing me,
he's facing his computer.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I was escaping no XP waste baby.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Playing a game.
Oh my God, was escaping no xpwaste baby playing a game.
Oh my god.
Um, okay, so the saturday.
I don't even know what day isor day is today.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Oh, when's that ended ?
Why?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
yeah, so I guess it doesn't really matter.
But the other saturday I thinkit was just last saturday yeah,
last saturday, me and aaron headoff and I was kind of looking
for stuff that I could go do for, like a Patreon video or
whatever.
I found a gem, zach, and it isfive minutes from my house and I
don't know how I've lived herethis long and didn't know this
(02:56):
was here, and this is theweirdest thing.
I just I don't know.
This is so crazy to me.
So I'm looking up, I'm like, oh,I kind of want to go to an
oddity shop, though, because wedidn't really talk about last
video, but I painted my wallblack and it's going to be like
a gallery wall, so I have somestuff for it, but I need, you
know, some more stuff.
So I was going to oh, my knowabout this.
(03:24):
How is there an oddity shop ingrim blink?
Why is there?
Cute as fuck, you're gonna die.
I didn't buy anything becauseme and aaron went and I was like
, are you sure you actually wantto go and do this with me?
he was freaked out.
He was a trooper, he was, hewas a trooper, he very much was
a trooper.
But we get halfway there andaaron's like oh, we should have
printed out your flyerssomewhere for the event.
(03:46):
I said wow, you are so smart,sweetheart, except for we're
about pulling into this place.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You can always go back.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I could, but they're only open on Saturdays and
Sundays, oh weird.
Anyway, it's so cute and it's ahouse.
It's an old house, it's like ahundred year old house, and so
it's all done.
I took videos for Patreon.
It's.
They have some of the coolestfucking shit there.
I could have left witheverything.
And then they have um, so it'scalled oddballs antiques, and
then they have like one of theside rooms they kind of rent out
(04:14):
.
So one of the side rooms wasjust like this artist and it's
uh called paradox art.
So we follow both of them onour Instagram now, if anybody
wants to check them out, butyeah it was just so cool.
And then so aaron was like doyou think it's haunted in here?
And I was like honey, eitherthe house is haunted or one of
these objects is so I asked thelady I was like he wants to know
how haunted it is here.
(04:34):
And she just starts laughing.
She's like well, and then thegirl, like in the little art
room.
She's like yeah, there'sdefinitely a man here and she's
like a little boy, and they'reboth like nothing, like
malicious or whatever.
And so I asked him do you thinkit's from the house or from one
of these objects?
And they're like it'sdefinitely the house.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh, interesting, I would have thought the other.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's what I would have thought, but no.
So now I'm like me.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I should look up the history of that house, if I can,
because so, speaking though, ofyour gallery wall getting
things for that and hauntedobjects, jesus Christ, I finally
got notification that my chairsare on their way.
You haven't told them.
No, I bought some.
I was out in Arizona for a worktrip and Karen and I have been
(05:17):
talking about refreshing ouroffices a little bit and I've
been looking for these likeperfectly just creepy old chair,
and I found two of them andthey are beautiful, so perfect
but very, very creepy immaculateold carved cherubs on the
handles, perfect pricing.
I cannot wait for them to behere.
They are in the winnebago ontheir way to michigan.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
A cherub, because it almost looks more of like.
She looks more of like a littlegoddess or something to me, so
is that what it's considered?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I don't know I assume chera, because what you didn't
see from the pictures is that onthe side it is carved wings, I
think it's a fairy it could be.
I don't know, I'm gonna.
I can't wait for them to gethere so I can like get into the
maker's mark and really researchthem.
But yeah, I'm about 80, certainthey are um rj horners yeah,
you're telling me, you did somuch research.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
What did your mom say ?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, she's like pumped she goes.
Make sure, before you bringthem in your house, that you
spray them with sage and wipethem down with Florida water.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Dang, you were saying that and it made me think of
something.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Oh shit, better think quick Cheers, because it's
almost time to open the shop up.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
All right.
Well, maybe it'll come back tome.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Okay, maybe it will come back to you?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh, I know what it was it came back to you In a
couple of weeks Well, maybe,yeah, in a couple of weeks you
will see this vlog that Zacharymade for you, which is great,
but there's something in therethat he didn't fucking buy for
me and I'm so upset about it.
I'm not going to say what it is, because I don't want to ruin,
(06:47):
don't worry.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I added my commentary on this.
Why did you not bring?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
this home for me.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Oh, I have a feeling.
I know exactly what it is too.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Okay, now you can open up the shop.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Okay.
So I have a question for you.
Of course you do.
Okay, did you ever play jumprope as a kid?
Like not just jumping byyourself, but the one where,
like one person whole, or liketwo people one hold each end?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
and the person in the middle jumps yeah, what was
that thing in elementary schoolthat you had to do where you had
to jump for like the longeststreak to raise money?
For what?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
yeah, it was the american heart association for
jump.
It was like a heart healththing jump start your, your
heart.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
It's something like that I do know.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I remember that because I was always like the
worst at it, and it was, I hatedit.
Ok, anyways, though, do youremember the rhymes that would
go along with it?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Why can I only think about Ring Around the Rosie?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That one kind of works there was, like the
Cinderella dressed in yellow.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Oh yeah, my favorite is the Miss Mary Mac.
Are we going into?
Are you going to tell me aboutall these fucked up stories?
No Songs, ok, no.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
But I like the Miss Mary Mac ones because they were
always a little bit like on theverge of being inappropriate.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
OK, so we're going to stay with the rhymes for like
one second.
I'm going to read you one.
Okay, that is going to make you.
So we're not talking about manyof them, we're talking about
one specific one.
This one, though, is full ofmystery, murder and hauntings.
Are you ready for the rhyme?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
No, I'm really trying to figure out where we're going
with this.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
It'll take you two seconds once I start saying it.
Do you want me to give you acouple more seconds to guess?
Well, no, okay.
Lizzie Borden took an axe, gaveher mother 40 whacks.
When she saw what she had done,she gave her father 41.
Lizzie Borden got away and forher crimes she did not pay.
I think you probably know wherethis is going now.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I do, but okay.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
No, go on, Get it out first, because this is going to
be a long one.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
No, you had just texted me yesterday.
Something in the true crimeworld had come to light and you
want to make sure I wasn't doingthe same episode and I don't
know what Perfect that will betwo weeks from today, because I
had already written this one.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I'm talking about the one that I'm I'm writing right
now.
So that is you're thinking.
So I texted, carol, somethingto make sure we weren't doing
the same, because in two weeksteaser, I've got a big, big, big
big oh, you can edit that out,old, old.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
This is why my brain is like no, no, we're good,
we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So?
August 4th 1982?
Nope, august 4th 1982.
Nope, august 4th 1892.
Holy shit, that was tough.
Around 1110 am, a woman namedLizzie Borden stands in the
living room of 92 Second Streetin Fall River, massachusetts.
(09:39):
It is then according to herthat she discovers a bloody
sight and immediately yells fortheir live-in maid bridget,
shouting come quick, father'sdead, somebody came in and
killed him.
Bridget comes down the stairs.
She finds lizzie bordenstanding in the room where her
father had been recentlymurdered while he was napping on
the couch.
(10:00):
The site insanely gruesome.
A family doctor and police arecalled, and that's when they
discover something trulyhorrible had taken place, not
only to lizzie's father, andrewborden, but also her stepmother,
abby borden as well okay allright.
So you know me.
We're going backwards now.
(10:20):
Andrew borden.
He is born 1822, of english andwelsh descent.
He grew up super, super poor,um, but he eventually becomes
like a pretty, pretty wealthyguy.
He takes a wife named sarahmorse, you know, obviously
eventually borden, and he startsto get into like property
development and becomes a bankpresident and does furniture
(10:43):
sales, like this guy just kindof does a little bit of
everything yeah, he dabbled in alot um, but he becomes really
really financially well off.
But because of his upbringing hewas always like really frugal
and just stingy, stingy and andkind of like.
Um, he was never described asmean, but just grumpy and
(11:03):
unfriendly.
So he's not like outwardlynasty, but he's just not like an
approachable guy.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, it's just not like you wouldn't.
Yeah, he's just not like kind,but he's not maybe mean.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Right, like he's not going to call you an asshole to
your face, but he's going tostare at you, yeah.
However, though, him and Sarahbuild a comfortable life
together.
They buy a fairly nice home inFall River, massachusetts.
In this home that Sarah givesbirth to two children, first
Emma and then Lizzie.
So fairly normal upbringing atfirst, but when Emma is 12 and
(11:35):
Lizzie is just three years old,they lose their mother, sarah,
unfortunately to what was listedas uterine congestion.
I guess this is just like anold-timey way of saying
something with the uterus.
Yeah, they just don't know RightLikely in this case they think
(11:55):
it was either cancer or anectopic pregnancy.
Unfortunately, she was only 39years old when she passed away,
which is just like.
That's so sad, although I feellike for 1892, that would have
put her at 27, when she had herfirst kid, which feels rather
old for the time that does feelreally old.
Beside that point, though it'ssad, we're gonna move on from
(12:17):
that it's only gonna get moresad.
The girls, though they had alike pretty normal upbringing.
They were involved in thechurch, especially Lizzie, so
she was involved in a ton ofchurch activities, teaching the
Sunday school businesses relatedto church.
So they also kind of grew uphaving this love-hate
(12:38):
relationship with their father.
So, like I said, he was notmean, he just wasn't kind and he
was very well off but verystingy.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I feel like everybody knows somebody that has that
type of friend, that has like aparent that's just like not a
loving parent.
They're not a bad parent, theyprovide, but they're just not a
loving, nurturing parent.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
So I think that was kind of his and he just made
some like really weird decisions.
So, unlike the cheap part, thatjust doesn't make sense.
So they live in like a reallynice, really beautiful home, but
he skipped out on puttingindoor plumbing on, which was
even quite prevalent on likeless valuable homes at the time
no, wasn't this home, though.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
As much as it was really nice, it was almost still
like a very like.
Poor is not the right word, buthe definitely could have got a
way bigger, more extravaganthome I mean it's pretty large
right there's three floors butlike, yeah, he could have
afforded a much better home andit had no bells and whistles, no
, anything like that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
What also really didn't help the relationship
with the father and the kids isthat just three years after the
uh, lizzie and emma's mom passed, he takes a new wife, uh abby
gray, who becomes abby borden.
Emma and lizzie really feellike she married their father
for his money well, theyprobably feel like it's pretty
(14:00):
quick too, like you don't it wasquick and then they even got
married really quickly and shedidn't come from much but that
was kind of common around.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Like you kind of married quickly because you
almost need somebody to takeover the home right, and that's
pretty much exactly why hemarries her right is so that she
would take care of the home.
However, uh, miss abby, ain'tabout that life.
So it said like together theyturned the home into a loveless
(14:30):
place that caused the girls tofeel neglected.
So it kind of seemed like theywere just kind of doing their
own thing.
You know newlyweds she's kindof.
I.
I think she was marrying him,but she wasn't ready to be a
stepmom.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, which unfortunately, I think that that
type of shit happens a lot ohyeah.
Even now.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So then too, of course, with her.
You know, not wanting to takecare of the home, they had to
hire a live-in nanny.
So her name is Bridget Sullivan, an Irish immigrant who's there
to basically keep the houseThroughout the years.
The five live in the same house, right?
So Abby and Andrew, then wehave the two girls and then
Bridget, and the tensions arealways kind of like, like I said
, it goes love-hate, it goeshigh, low.
Emma and Lizzie really feellike Dad's way too tight with
(15:19):
the money, but he has noproblems giving Abby and her
family some really lavish gifts,even giving some of them homes.
Okay, yeah, that's crazy, whichis especially egregious when
his two now adult childrenliving in their 30s still live
with him.
I don't know, sometimes theyget along, other times not at
(15:40):
all.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Which, though, that was also common too, though for
everyone to continuously livewith each other until you got
married off.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, and I couldn't figure out why, like both Emma
and Abby or not Abby Lizzie,into their 30s, had not married.
There's some weird dynamicsgoing on.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Why are you into your 30s and not married?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Okay, well, that's just because nobody's good
enough.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Well then, there you go.
But in the 1800s I would havebeen married off by now for sure
, okay, so, anyway.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
so the girls do get a small win from their dad and
they demand that he gives themone of his rental properties,
which he sells them for a dollar.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Now I couldn't really figure out, like I know they
volunteered for the church anddid all these things, but I
couldn't figure out if theyworked.
I don't think they did.
No, so I don't know why andthis is totally conjecture, but
this whole thing gives me likekardashian spinoffs, like where
chloe and courtney just likelive in houses in random city
paid for by their parents sothey could just like go have
adventures, yes, exactly, okay.
Again, I have no basis for that, but like that's just how
you're feeling your vibes?
yeah they do move into their ownplace.
Um, but a few weeks beforewhere this story started, on
(16:49):
august 4th 1892, the girlsactually sell the property back
to their father and move in withhim.
Do you know how much?
They sold it back to him?
For two dollars, five thousand,okay.
So it's just, I don't it's.
They seem to really base theirrelationship off money.
Ok, so the live and made thosesays that, like the girls hardly
(17:10):
ate meals with their father andthat things like the tensions
are just getting really high.
So again to a couple monthsbefore August and May.
Andrew, according to Bridget,had killed a bunch of pigeons
that were in the barn, ok, witha hatchet.
Andrew, according to Bridget,had killed a bunch of pigeons
that were in the barn, okay,with a hatchet.
Okay, believing that they wereattracting local youth to come
hunt them.
(17:30):
Well, this was kind of like afinal straw for Miss Lizzie,
because she had taken a likingto the birds, made a roost for
them and she was really upsetabout this.
That is very upsetting.
So that's May.
By July nothing had beenresolved and a giant argument
happened.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Do you know why the girls moved back?
Wasn't it something theyweren't doing?
I feel like I could be makingthis up, but they just weren't
equipped to take care ofthemselves by themselves in the
house, something like that, itkind of seems like.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I think they wanted independence, but I think at the
same time, they were alsoreally spoiled while feeling
like they were spoiled OK yeah.
So anyways, like, yeah, now thisfamily arguments going on
through July and that promptsthe sisters to take an extended
vacation to New Bedford.
Then they return home just acouple of days before these
(18:23):
upcoming murders.
Ok, home just a couple daysbefore these upcoming murders,
okay, now, at the same time thatthey come home, john morse,
who's the brother of the latesarah borden.
He's also coming to stay at thehome for a few days to discuss
business with andrew.
Okay, important to note, he's abutcher by trade, but he also
came to speak with andrew.
Some property, okay, while theydon't eat together, they all
(18:45):
eat the same food and they getsuper, super sick.
And now they are all stuck inthe house together, except for
Emma.
Emma was likely with a malesuitor at the time.
Okay, john, andrew, bridget,abby and Lizzie all super sick,
all locked in a house together,when they're all not getting
along and it sounds likeeverything with John Morse and
(19:07):
Andrew isn't going so hot Ugh.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Sounds like a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Oh, total nightmare fuel.
Just the tensions running inthis house.
You probably felt like youcould cut it with a knife Mm,
mm-mm-mm Right now.
How are you feeling about thetension Now?
You know we're going into theday of the murder.
I know you know that, but like,do you have any suspects who
are sticking out to you Anything?
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (19:33):
You guys are all going to be so mad at me.
I really don't have anythoughts on this case.
I mean, I have a lot, but Idon't know why I really cannot
tell you this.
I don't know why, but this casemakes me very sad in so many
ways.
I have no connection to it inany way, I don't.
I don't know why, but I justsome.
(19:53):
For whatever reason, I feellike this case is not my
business.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
OK, that's that's fair, because it is one of those
ones that is just like it couldbe anyone.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, and I just feel like, and I don't know why,
because I don't feel like thatwith a lot of cases, but this
case has always stuck with mesince the stupid little school
rhyme that I just feel likethere's something about it that
we don't know.
It's not our place, that wedon't know it's not our place.
I don't know.
I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Perfect.
So do you want to jump backinto it, since it's not your
place?
But I'm still going to tell youall the gruesome details.
Sure, cool.
So this brings us back to themorning of August 4th.
All right, but, like I said,emma's not home.
(20:39):
But we do know john was in thehouse, andrew, abby, bridget and
lizzie.
So between the hours of six andseven, andrew and abby wake up,
bridget starts to clean thehouse and john morse.
He has breakfast and then heleaves to visit relatives where
he's buying a pair of oxes.
Okay, after about seven o'clock,before eight, andrew and abby
complain of feeling unwell.
They're still kind of sufferingfrom the food poisoning.
(20:59):
Breakfast is served, they startto eat, but lizzie apparently
refuses to eat breakfast thismorning.
Okay, between eight and nine,andrew leaves for his usual
morning walk.
Bridget is ordered by abby tothe windows outside, despite the
fact that there is like intensesummer heat, and Lizzie is
(21:20):
either upstairs inside doing Godonly knows what or, as she
claims, she was out in the barnlooking for fishing sinkers.
Ok, so that takes us rightabout to nine o'clock.
Okay, so nine o'clock, abbyborden goes upstairs to the
guest bedroom to make the bed,which is usually bridget's job,
but with bridget working outside, she uh takes care of it.
(21:44):
And then at about 10 45, thenext thing we know, because
bridget saw abby go upstairs,right but, we have no idea what
happens between 9 30 and 10 45ish, but um, between 10, 30 and
10 45.
Andrew returns home from hiswalk and he tries to get in the
front door but it's locked andeven with his key he can't get
(22:07):
it to budge.
Bridget comes and lets him inbecause she had come in from the
intense heat to go take alittle rest.
Well, yeah, and as she's comingto the door, she notes that she
heard Lizzie laughing from thetop of the stairs.
Okay, which contradicts theclaim that Lizzie was out in the
barn.
(22:28):
So she lets in Andrew.
She's still really tired fromthe heat.
So she goes up to her thirdlevel bedroom to go take a nap.
Andrew also feeling a littlewiped out, still sick, he lays
down on the sitting room sofa torest as well.
Okay, that's till about between10 45 and 11 10 and, as we said
(22:48):
earlier, 11 10 is where 32 yearold lizzie discovers somebody
has entered the house, murderedher father, and she yells for
bridget.
Okay, the first to arriveunseen are two neighbors, mrs
churchill and the family doctor.
The family doctor actuallylived across the street, which
is super convenient, yeah.
And they come in and discoverthe mess that andrew had become
(23:11):
yeah then go upstairs todiscover that in the guest
bedroom is the body of abbyborden, also brutally murdered,
and the police are alerted rightaway.
So the police come in, theystart their investigation and
they determine between 9 and 930 that abby was facing the bed,
possibly making it, when shewas struck from behind with a
(23:33):
hatchet.
She then fell face down betweenthe bed and the dresser, where
she is struck a total of 19times mostly to the back of her
head.
Yeah, the force literally justcrushes her skull.
She has exposed bone and braineverywhere.
It's horrifying.
And there's a lot of driedblood which suggests she had
(23:54):
been dead for quite some time,right Before Andrew was murdered
, because when the police arriveher blood is dried.
His is still wet.
Ok, that's how we.
We placed that murder at aboutnine.
Then we know 1045 is whenAndrew came home.
He was asleep by about 11.
This time the killer attacksfrom above, delivering 10 or 11
(24:15):
blows to his face and head.
One literally like clean splitshis eye.
That's crazy.
Um, his nose completely severed.
I mean, his face was somutilated that it was just
unrecognizable yeah you.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You wouldn't even be able to tell who he was if it
wasn't in his own home on hisfucking couch absolutely like we
said earlier to abby dry.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
He is still actively bleeding, so we know that there
was at least some time.
So the murderer had to havebeen in the home at the same
time that Bridget lets Andrewback in, right, and then she
goes upstairs to sleep.
Now Lizzie, remember, said shewas out in the barn to the
police, but Bridget also saysshe hears her laughing at the
(24:57):
top of the stairs.
Okay, so some other detailsthat came about from the
investigation.
Murder weapon is believed to bea hatchet and they are fairly
certain they found it in thebasement with the handle broken
off.
Oh yeah, now there's twohatchets in the basement, one
that's really old, old and dirty, this broken one that was kind
of made to look old and dirty.
(25:19):
Whoever the killer was, theyshowed that they had extreme
strength because they nearlydecapitated andrew and crushed
abby's skull.
Based on where the attackstarted, they think that andrew
seemed to be more personalbecause his face was
specifically targeted, and thenneither of them fought back,
(25:39):
showing that it was an ambush.
Okay, do you have a thought?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
No, okay, I really don't.
I mean I like I can picturethis because I've thoroughly
watched so much on this and likelisten to so much, so I can
like picture it.
I hope everyone else kind ofcan oh yeah.
To me it's kind of like this isa really old house, though, and
you can't quietly travelthrough this home, if that makes
(26:03):
sense.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Right, the weird thing is there's so many people.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, but the fact that she thought she heard
Lizzie upstairs laughing for herto then just like get down the
stair, like, like, so she's atthe door no, I know the stairs
behind her when this happens.
It's not a great distance no, no, but what I'm saying is the
house.
This is a older home even then,like it's loud, it's not meant.
(26:29):
It's not built like homes today, right, like where everything
is quiet.
So for her to say that she wasat the top of the stairs, then I
get it, but then where did shego?
You would have like heard heryeah, I, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
No, that's.
The thing is, though, is likenobody's stories make sense
because john morse didn't comeback with oxes bridget's doesn't
make sense because, like theother thing too is, I can't find
anything in her story from whenshe was out cleaning windows to
when she came inside.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Well, that's what I'm saying, because then it's like
even if you were cleaningwindows again, these homes are
not built like ours you can heareverything.
So if she was outside cleaningwindows, I would think even on
the second floor you would hearsomebody being brutally murdered
, like with the hatchet, likeeven if they weren't screaming
or anything.
I think you'd hear like somecommotion, right, but then again
(27:20):
, how do you not hear thatcommotion?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
on the second floor if you're laying on the couch on
the first floor.
Well, that's.
The thing is, she was deadbefore he walked back in the
house.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah, I know, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
So the police do start to, you know, interview
everybody, collect all theevidence.
They immediately suspect lizzieas the only possible attacker
because while everyone else'sstories stayed the same, hers
changes multiple times aboutwhere she was, what she was
doing.
She at one point said that shelike thought abby was out with a
friend and she left a notestating she was gone, but like
(27:55):
never was able to produce a note.
A lot of her stuff doesn't makesense.
And they also noted that herdemeanor was way too put
together for somebody who justdiscovered their father brutally
murdered.
Okay, the night after gets evenweirder lizzie, emma, emma comes
back, john Morse and Bridgetall stay in the house.
(28:17):
Police are stationed around andat one point they can see
Lizzie enter the cellar with akerosene lamp and a slot pail.
You couldn't see exactly whatshe was doing, but it looked
like she had been bent over asink cleaning clothes, and
people suspect it was maybecleaning blood off the side of
the clothes if she committedthese murders.
Now, the hardest part about allthis is not only were all they,
people suspect it was maybecleaning blood off the set of
the clothes if she committedthese murders.
(28:37):
Ok, now, the hardest part aboutall this is not only were all
they staying in the house thatnight, so were Abby and Andrew,
because their autopsies areperformed, basically starting at
the house because the familydoctor.
They're laid out on like thedining room table for a long
time and they're part of thisautopsy.
They did remove the skulls.
(28:58):
This, like you know, it's awell-off family, well known.
Public was horrified andnewspapers start to
sensationalize the case rightaway.
Okay, so now not only are thepolice outside, but like
basically this mob of peoplealong with the mayor trying to
figure out what happened.
So the the mayor and the policeenter the home and basically
look at Liz and go, hey, you'reour only suspect, which you'd
(29:20):
think would make her actstraight.
No, the next day morning she isfound ripping up a dress,
possibly the one she wascleaning in the cellar, and
saying she was going to burn itbecause it was covered in paint.
Oh yeah, I know.
So here's my thing.
I know it looks damning forLizzie, but I think John and
(29:43):
Bridget are just as culpable ofthis.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, they kind of all are, I mean, and that's.
I think that's why this casehas been so sensationalized for
years, because, number one, itwas like sensationalized because
a 32 year old petite femaleright brutally murdered two
people with an axe and like howcould she do that?
blah, blah, blah.
But then it was like there's somany other factors into this
(30:09):
that, like you just said,nothing makes sense, but also
everything could actually add up.
True, and I think what we knownow is that people act so
different when they're facedwith people dying, especially
like if it was a brutal thinglike this, like it's not just
like a quote, unquote, normal.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Everyone handles grief very differently.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
She could have just been like how many times have
you broke something Cause you'reupset?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Almost every time I break something Right.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So it's like.
To me, her ripping up a dresscould just literally be like
anger, like this dress had painton it, like fuck it, and just
like destroying it because she'supset.
Do you get what I mean Like?
So it's like yes.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I totally get what you mean and the jury had the
same thought process as you.
Basically, let's spend I wantto spend just like a couple
short minutes on the trial so wecan get to the really fun parts
, okay, so super long trial maytestifies she claims she didn't
hear witness the murders, eventhough she was in or just
(31:05):
outside the home that's what shestrongly states that she heard
lizzie laughing from the top ofthe stairs and that even as she
turned, she saw somebody upthere.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So she also said she saw, yeah, did you calculate how
much five thousand dollars was?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
nope, okay, but it's a lot.
You know what I mean just keepgoing.
Yeah, I just had, I was justthinking so the uncle testifies
next, and he stays true to hisstory that he wasn't home when
it occurred.
Like I said, though, no, ox um,emma really doesn't testify too
much about the day of themurder, but she gives family
statements.
Lizzie has this exact quote tosay I was in the barn when
(31:41):
father was murdered.
Somebody must have come in offthe street and killed him.
This is another damning point.
For lizzie, though, when andrewreturned from his walk, he
couldn't get the door to work.
Bridget had to let him in, sothere is no way a stranger could
have done this.
Okay, the defense is trying tosay somebody random must have
(32:01):
come in, and they don't have anydirect evidence of lizzie's
wrongdoing.
The prosecutor, they hang onthe maid's testimony of lizzie
being in the home at the top ofthe stairs near the guest
bedroom, the strange behaviorswith the cellar and right and
the lack of there being forcedentry because, like you, would
have had to bust that door if itwas somebody just coming in.
(32:21):
The prosecutors also point outmotive right, so lizzie had been
upset that abby was receivingso much of her father's
belongings, and obviously Ithink I think her and emma were
a little not spoiled becausethey weren't getting it, but
they had a taste for nicerthings, right?
Yeah, one of the key points ofthe prosecution's tactic is
(32:43):
during the trial.
The reason the skulls weretaken during the autopsy is they
wanted to present them asevidence In this moment where
they were going to show all thehatchet blows.
And Lizzie, when she saw thecrushed skull, she'd faint in
court.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Or no, she'd not faint.
Sorry that she would freak outand admit to it.
And no, instead she, she faints.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, because wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh, yeah, but like they thought, like it would make
her, just you know, confess no.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I mean, I do get that thought process in a way, but
what the fuck is wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
right.
So the fact that, like she waskind of tiny and that she didn't
, that there was lack of a clearmurder weapon and that
everything is circumstantial, onjune 20th 1893, after only 90
minutes of deliberation, she'sfound not guilty.
What I find is really weird isshe lives the rest of her life
(33:39):
in fall river, is a totaloutcast and just stayed there.
I don't know I I probably wouldhave loved well, she moved to
the.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Didn't her and her sister move to the other
property that they once bought?
Yes, yep, but still in fall.
Yeah, I think that you wouldleave I don't know why you did
it if you did it, I think thatyou'd leave right because you're
gonna get the money or whatever.
But, um, really quick, fivethousand dollars in today's
(34:07):
money is worth a hundred andseventy three thousand dollars,
four hundred, whatever.
I'll keep going.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I don't need to keep going, but yeah, got a ton of
money from that's.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
That was what my point was.
They already had plenty ofmoney to live off of for a very
long time.
I I start to think somethingabout.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, I go back to those pigeons and especially
the way they were killed withthe hatchet, but you know.
So the tensions, right, andeverything that we have going
around lizzie, that gives hermotive.
Um, the maid could have beenpissed because, you know, abby
was supposed to take care of thehouse.
She's now being demanded to doit and she could have lied about
laugh, or abby, oh sorry, liedabout lizzie laughing upstairs,
(34:49):
right to kind of put it on herthe lizard laughing upstairs
doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I don't know why that part fucking, that's the part
that makes me kind of think it'sthe maid a little bit.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But then.
But then there's john morse.
Remember, butcher by trade.
He would have actually had thestrength to do this.
He came to talk business withandrew and they argued over
money and property.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Here's what I'll say the butcher by trade part.
I really could give a shitabout that, I could give less
about, because everybody was afucking butcher.
Then you know what I mean.
I don't really care about that.
I know it's a big part aboutthis case is like it's a good,
like a point, and let me alsojust say that I don't really
care if you're the most petiteperson in the world.
(35:32):
If you wanted to ask somebodyto death, you could fucking ask
somebody to death.
So I don't really know aboutthat.
Like I don't care about thosetwo parts.
I've always, I think, like whenI was younger, I thought it was
Lizzie, because everybody saidit was Lizzie.
So you just believe it.
I just don't actually think itis.
I don't.
I don't because I think that ifit was, you would take the
(35:54):
money that you got, you'd leave,you wouldn't stay.
There's no reason.
There would be no reason foryou to stay.
But you and your sister alsogot what did?
I just say $170,000 for sellingthat property back.
If you really were miserable inthis life, you would have just
taken that money and left.
Truly, it doesn't make sensefor you to keep staying there.
(36:16):
There's nothing that you'reprofiting.
Your dad's not loving yourstepmom isn't loving.
Okay, so you have a maid, butyou guys are miserable.
It doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
It seems like everyone was just living in
misery, and honestly, I don'tknow.
I'm going to keep my thoughtson what I think happened for a
little bit more.
Okay, so nobody is everconvicted, though.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
I mean, if I guess, still unsolved.
Yeah, if I had to pick somebodywhich I really don't want to,
because, like I said, I don'tknow why this case just makes me
feel weird I would pick thebrother-in-law, because how many
murder cases do we hear, though, that are about business?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
they're about deals and money and things like that
so hold on to that, okay for alittle bit.
Obviously still unsolved,though, and we know it's a huge
pop culture thing.
I mean, how many documentariesmovies you know everything out
there.
Most of them, like we say,though, they focus on lizzie uh.
There's another set of thedocumentaries, though, which
(37:17):
makes this the oddity.
The lizzie borden house ishaunted as shit yep by the
bordens and many other spirits,and, honestly, this place gives
me somewhat vibes like theconjuring house, where it's like
, yeah, there's the main story,but there seems to be a lot of
other stuff going on.
But everyone's been throughhere, you know, kindred spirit,
(37:38):
so amy and adam dead files,ghost adventures.
It's considered one of the mosthaunted locations in america.
Sorry, don't go right now.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
It has not great owners not good owners, which
I'm sorry.
Let's just take a side note.
Why do all of these greatplaces have just terrible owners
?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
I don't know.
It definitely attracts someLike the conjuring.
The.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Villisca axe.
I've always wanted to go tothat house.
They've turned it into an axe,throwing the basement into an
actual axe throwing.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I think a lot of people see how sensational the
places are and just see thedollar signs.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
You don't even need to do that to make dollar signs
in your hands.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I think it's just investor minded people getting
into a situation they don't knowabout you need to buy these
places, Zachary.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, we do oh my God, subscribe to our Patreon so we
can buy these houses.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
We'll let you stay there for free.
That's part of being a Patreon.
Okay, new tier coming soon.
Stay there for free, that'spart of being a Patreon.
Okay, new tier coming soon.
Paranormal investors All right.
So some of the common thingsthat happen, though.
So there's a lot of disembodiedvoices and whispers.
People hear murmuring voicesand hushed conversations.
Sometimes you hear a womancrying softly, which a lot of
(38:49):
people think it's Abby Borden,reliving her brutal death.
One of the biggest thing,though, is like these phantom
sounds a lot of heavy footsteps,especially like on the
staircases, the bedrooms a lotof like sounds of shuffling,
just weird thuds, a lot of thatseems to be focused around the
guest bedroom doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
um, I think they say it almost sounds like furniture
is being moved.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, okay, um, and then every now and then, people
have reported like the sound oflike a hatchet striking
something which has a pretty,you know, unique thunk.
Oh, there's also full bodyapparition, so a figure of a man
in a suit that a lot of peoplethink is andrew, a woman in
victorian clothing that a lot ofpeople think is abby, or also a
(39:34):
distant borden relative.
We'll get back into them, butthey just seem to kind of like
all these shadowy figures lurkaround the house, lots of people
being touched here.
Um, it's like you feel coldhands on you while you're
sleeping or being pushed, orlike lightly scratching the back
of your head.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Oh, but you would love that.
What do you mean?
You used to beg me to do thatevery day at work.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, but you never killed people by putting a
hatchet through the back oftheir head.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Well, you don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
The person that is scratching is the person that
killed people that's true, um,for some reason, there's a lot
of children giggling around thehouse.
No, which many investigatorshave collected evidence that
like it's spears that are notjust the Borden's, but there's a
lot of other entities that seemto be attached to the land.
She's a portal.
Oh yeah, lots of poltergeistactivities, so furniture,
(40:28):
silverware and books all movingaround without explanation.
Guests have had things thrownat them, um, or they wake up and
their items are like relocatedor missing.
Then you, you got the typicalshit.
You know emf, evps.
You've got battery drainhappening.
The most common evps that wehear are help me leave, and why
(40:50):
did you do this?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
yes, the why did you do this is mind-blowing to me.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
So I put I didn't put together a theory.
I'm taking a theory that wasput together by some other
people.
So I watched a ton of theinvestigations for this episode,
but there was one that I reallywanted to watch that I haven't
seen before I didn't oh wow, butI did watch the curse of lizzie
borden, which is a shock doc ondiscovery.
(41:16):
Plus, uh and this features ahandful of people.
You might know one, daveschrader, who's done a ton of
investigation.
Uh, just a great human being,yes, hilarious to be around.
Uh, chris fleming okay, whichalso huge shout out to Chris for
kicking cancer's ass this yearand he's recovering very well.
(41:37):
And our buddy, sam Beltrusis,oh yeah, we've met him a handful
of times.
Kind of background right.
So, dave, longtime investigator, he leads this excursion over
multiple days into the house I'msorry, there's also a woman
named Luanne Jolly there.
So he brings in Luanne Jolly.
She's a local investigator andwriter.
(41:58):
Sam, who's a clairvoyant authorand distant relative of the
Bordens.
And we have his books?
Yes, we do.
And then there's Chris Fleming.
He's an investigator and amedium as well.
So they want to come in and useall the investigative and their
personal mediumship tools,because they're kind of positing
(42:21):
evidence that something darkermight be going on.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Sam has done a ton of family history and they kind of
research.
There's a long line of deathsin the Borden family, with
family members killing otherfamily members, like this aunt
who killed her two kids rightyes, and that's so weird and a
lot of people seem to think thatthe spirit activity, that
they're picking up the EVPs orthe kids are actually this part
(42:49):
of the family and Tsitsi, orwhatever oh, actually this part
of the family or whatever.
Oh, now there's also evidencethat shows that john morse the
uncle, he might have been alittle bit into the occult.
Okay, it's not provable, butthere's theories around it.
Theories, right.
So throughout this documentarythey do.
It's really, really interestingbecause they use a lot of the
(43:10):
electronics, you know, evps,emfs, and they get a lot of
really interesting, very Bordenrelated but then very dark and
sinister.
They do spirit writing.
It's really interesting towatch Dave Schrader go through a
spirit writing where you canjust tell he is uncomfortable
with how his hand is moving.
They do a whole sand.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Oh, that's creepy.
Yeah, when you can physicallytell that's creepy.
Yeah, it's a very physicallytell somebody's uncomfortable,
it's very oh, and multiple timesthroughout this.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
I mean sam has to leave a whole bunch.
Well, one of the times he openshimself up, he's sitting on the
sofa.
So that was you know well, andbecause he's a distant relative,
I feel like it does probablyaffect him differently they also
were getting this name a lotlike avlo envelope and kept
feeling like he was kind of thisdark spirit so don't say that
(43:59):
name too many times here's kindof what they put together with
the documentary that thephysical murderer was likely
lizzie but almost in aAmityville horror sense yes, a
dissociation had occurred whereand it had possibly occurred
throughout their family.
(44:20):
Is this like ongoing curse?
That it's this dark spiritattached to them, those tensions
high, keeps them all fightinguntil lizzie dissociates and
snaps.
And maybe john morse was doingsome of the occult.
I feel like, honestly, all ofthem could have been into it,
because if there's a dark spiritattaching itself to them, they
(44:42):
all could have played adifferent role in these murders
yeah, to make it and not evenreally realized it right like if
they were in a dissociativestate.
I'll go with that.
So that's to me where it kindof feels like everyone had a
hand in this and that's why itbecomes so hard.
That's why it's so weird andthat's why people get such weird
(45:03):
feelings around it.
Because, yes, they were thephysical reason it occurred, but
not maybe intrinsicallymotivated to do it.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, I don't.
When I watched the Sam andColby one, I don't remember if
they touched on that part, butI've definitely heard about that
vaguely.
Um but they did bring um SethBorden.
So if you've ever watchedSeth's videos he's a distant
relative of Lizzie Borden,obviously Borden.
And he was getting in someweird things like the um,
obviously borden, and he wasgetting in some weird things
(45:33):
like it the um evps and stuffkept saying seth and stuff like
that.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
So I think they were like you know it, it kind of,
seems I, I don't know obviouslyright, we don't have any
evidence of it being hauntedbefore the bordens, but it does
seem like it it's a familyhaunting it.
Well, it's like family andthese other dark spirits inside,
I don't know.
It reminds me a whole lot ofit's kind of like the Amityville
horror story and the conjuringpushed together a little bit.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Well, because we're not saying, we can't say it's
the house, because they it's not, like this house was
generational.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
No, it's not.
I don't think it's the housefor sure.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's something following the family or attached
to the family, the Borden.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And now it's definitely attached to that
property.
Well, yeah, so let me ask youthis If there were different
owners involved, right?
So like, take the owners out ofthe equation, would I go yeah.
Okay, so we're adding it to theroad trip at some point.
We'll wait for it to changehands.
But anyways, though, that isthe story of the murders, the
trials, the hauntings and thepossible demonic influence that
(46:38):
all had a hand in the LizzieBorden axe murders.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Good job.
Yeah, I don't know why this onealways, just because I don't
think, I just don't feel likeit's, I don't feel like she did
it.
I'm right there with you,because if she did, I agree with
the way like it was a psychosisor something putting because I
just, I don't know, doesn't addup to me then there's so much
evidence against lizzie.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
But you're right, like I still just don't believe
so that would also explain, like, could you imagine if you get
rid of the, the darkness out ofit?
Right, but like, say, you dranka whole lot and you blacked out
and the next day you woke upwith bloody clothes around you.
Like, yeah, you're going to beweird and go clean them in the
basement or whatnot, like andhold yourself like nothing
(47:23):
happened.
If you didn't remember whathappened and you think like
there might be evidence tyingyou to it, I'm getting rid of it
.
I'm going to act weird too.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, tying you to it .
I'm getting rid of it.
I'm gonna act weird too.
Yeah, yeah, but here's thething like when they said that,
like they were watching, shelike went into the basement,
it's like I'm sorry, but ifthere's an investigation, you
should have found those bloodyclothes.
And then, number two if you'restaking out the house for the
sake of the investigation, thenyou would go into the house and
you would see what she was doingyeah, there was.
(47:52):
There was a lot of things sayingthat they botch it and honestly
, I could have turned this intoa two or three parter to get way
more into the details of of howbad the police did here yeah,
no, I do know that it wasdefinitely botched um, but I'm
just saying like it, there'sjust way too many things that
like don't make sense, likedon't add up, and it's like why
(48:15):
was, why were like?
Okay, so I guess emma stayedout, but like, is that a normal
thing?
Did she normally came out withsuitors, like, did she like?
But we don't actually knowwhere she?
Was out to.
We're just saying that that's.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
The other thing too is a lot of people assume she
was with a suitor, but theydon't have full evidence on that
either.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
So that's why it's like okay, she could have very
well done that.
And it's like the laugh thing,like hearing her laugh, that
just is so fucking stupid to me.
I'm sorry, but like when do weever just laugh out loud by
ourselves?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
It's so fucking rare, like unless she was in a
dissociative state doing this.
That could very well.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
But I still go back to.
If you look at videos of thishouse, I just don't feel like
there's a way that you can getaround this house without being
heard.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
No, there's no way.
All three of them who werethere and survived it, didn't
know something.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
And then the other thing, bridget was just sleeping
on the third floor.
Well, and then so this is myother.
Sorry, I totally forgot aboutthis.
This has always been my otherthing, because everybody got
sick except for Emma because shewas away from food, right, yeah
, so to me my thing has alwaysbeen was somebody trying to
poison everybody?
Speaker 2 (49:31):
so that they can just they can be easily killed.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Okay, well, everybody was sick.
I guess you could fake beingsick, but everybody ate the food
.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, so it's like, and that's why I didn't even go
into that, because like.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
But see, that's my thing has always been like okay.
Well, if we all ate this foodthinking that it's Okay, let's
just say I poison the food andthey're, they're all going to be
sick and it's going to be somuch easier for me to subdue
them all and kill them all.
But we've got bridget, who'sfine because she's outside
fucking cleaning windows yeah,well, this is days after too.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
They had already started to recover.
Oh, so that's the other thingright, like if you were
poisoning people, like maybethey, whoever was going to do it
, got cold feet maybe I don't,don't know, but I've always
thought something with the foodwas weird.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
And I get it.
It's 18, whatever, so the foodyou got a lot on accident.
But like I don't know there'sjust so many things, and like I
do think that the brother-in-lawlike to me, that just makes
sense.
I mean, yes, children killtheir parents for so many
different reasons, but moneybusiness transaction.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
He had a lot of motive.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
That has so many reasons.
Like yeah, I don't know, but ifyou do watch investigations you
do get a lot of people thatwill walk out saying that they
don't believe Lizzie did it.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Yeah, and that's.
There's a lot of EVPs.
I don't know man, this is justa hard one.
Here's the deal.
It's a typical oddity shop,right?
We're never going to know,however.
However, in two weeks, on mynext episode, I promise you I'm
doing one that starts with truecrime.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
And that we will know .
Speaker 2 (51:05):
And that's had recent developments, so we have a nice
bow to put on top of this, andI'm so excited, I am so excited.
So, anyways, though, that's thelazy modern story for you, as
far as we know it well, thanks,that was a good job, you're
welcome what a job you're suchan idiot um, okay, so we need an
(51:27):
emoji, kara.
Um, what about an axe?
in the house yeah, axe in thehouse.
I think that works if you arestill listening.
Always need more write-ins,call-ins of your personal
stories, please.
We've got some on deck, but wedon't quite have enough for an
episode yet.
Leave us a review if you want,and you are always more than
welcome to hang out with us onpatreon if you so choose yes, I
(51:49):
would actually appreciate thepatreon people actually coming
around to us more.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
I'm always or not I'm we're always giving you stuff.
Come in there, chat with us,text us in our little group
chatty chats.
Tell me what cool things you'redoing, I don't really care.
You could literally tell methat you brushed your cat.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Hey, you know, for some people that's really
exciting, I know.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Like for me, me, I'm gonna go hang out with small cat
as soon as we're done.
So, with that being said, Iwant to go hang out with a cat.
Let's close up the shop with acat, do all those things.
Uh, we love you, we appreciateyou.
The most important thing youcan do for us is to creep a real
yeah balls.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Goodbye.
We'll be right back In theshadows At the Alicia At home
(52:55):
with the oddballs At the Alicia.
The door's always open At theAlicia.
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