Marilyn Monroe: American Icon's Death Shrouded in Secrecy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I want to dance with the mothman at the IA shop,
bathed in the moonlight at theIA shop.
Creep through the graveyard tothe IA shop.
The door's always open at theIA shop.

(00:29):
Welcome back to the Oddity Shop, the podcast where we tell you
creepy, odd, weird, strange andbizarre stories from around this
little tiny globe we live upon.
Curator Kara, how the hell areyou today?

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm okay, just okay.
I'm actually not.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
You're struggle bussing.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
I am.
I am on a combination of Motrin800 and I can't remember what
it is, but a muscle relaxer,like three times a day because
my body is so effed up.
Here's the deal.
I've been going through it andI'm so stressed out, but I've
been telling my brain that I'mnot stressed out and I've been
doing things to not stress meout, right Like reading I think

(01:15):
we talked about it, whatever andit's working for my brain.
But my body's like girl shutthe fuck up.
You are stressed out, and so myback muscles, my neck muscles,
my shoulder muscles, everythingis so tense.
I haven't really slept in likefive nights and my eczema has
flared up everywhere.
So my body's like girl, you'rea liar.
But my brain is like hey.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
And I'm your creator, zach.
How are you?
Oh, I'm doing fine.
I have done everything today,but what I needed to get done,
and that's fine, it is fine.
Yeah, I've been redoing thebackyard.
It looks really cute.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
It does Got a whole new patio thing going.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
What else is new?
Oh, I went to a little vintagemarket today, so there was like
a pop-up vintage market downtown.
That was really cute.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
What'd you buy me?

Speaker 1 (02:05):
I vintage market downtown.
That was really cute.
Would you buy me?
I didn't get anything.
Honestly, it was a lot oft-shirts.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
You could have bought me a t-shirt.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
There was nothing that there was a lot of things
we ha-ha'd at.
Then we went out and got somefood and a drink and came back
and I watched Julia play theLast of Us all day.
Cute, yeah, it was really fun.
Okay, alright, that's what Igot for you, anything else?

Speaker 2 (02:24):
What's new?
We're boring.
There is nothing new.
My back has been dying everyday, perfect.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
I guess you should open the shop with the damn
question then Can you imagineliving a life where everyone
else sees you as an icon but noone sees you as a person?

Speaker 1 (02:40):
My life already, oh God, no, I don, as a person, my
life already, oh god, no.
Um, I don't know.
I think about that sometimesbecause, like I don't think
we'll ever like be famous, butit would be like weird to lose
your actual, like personality,yeah, your wi-fi, your actual
personality, while like everyoneelse has these like prescribed

(03:02):
notions of who you're supposedto be.
I, I don't think would be great.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
No.
So what do you think happenswhen somebody knows too much
about the wrong people?
Is it paranormal?
Paranormal, paranoia orsurvival?
Can you rephrase that question?
Yeah, because I said it wrong.
Okay, let me just repeat it.
What do you think happens whensomeone knows too much about the
wrong people?
Do you think it ends up beinglike paranoia or survival?

Speaker 1 (03:28):
for the person who knows too much, or the person
who has too much known yeah Idon't think it's survival.
I think it's just like we getweirdly obsessed with people who
we then do you think it?

Speaker 2 (03:38):
perceive them as in like positions of power or
influence do you think you wouldget more like paranoid though
Like you know all these things,maybe you shouldn't.
Or do you think it would belike just we'll put a pin in it?

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Like, are you saying, if I'm the person who everyone
knows things about, no, or I'mthe person who knows things?

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
I don't think that would make me paranoid.
I think it would make me moreparanoid if I was like the
person that everyone is talkingabout.
Yeah, why would I get paranoidif I knew too much about
somebody else?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Because it's the wrong people that you know about
things.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Oh, you're saying like no things that could get me
in trouble if I know them sortof deal, yeah, yeah.
Just put a pin in it, okay,okay.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
So in our episode about President John F Kennedy
we explored how power charismaKennedy.
We explored how power, charismaand secrets collide to create
one of America's greatestlegends and one of its darkest
mysteries.
But there are other figures oranother figure that was orbiting

(04:36):
that world and I didn't reallytouch a lot at all.
Actually, I didn't touch at alland I kind gave a teaser you did
so a woman whose beautycaptivated presidents, whose
secrets could shatter camelotand whose death remains as
contested as his.
Tonight we turn our attentionto the wonderful marilyn monroe

(05:02):
and the tangled web that linkedher fate to the Kennedys.
So we often remember MarilynMonroe as an icon the platinum
hair, the red lips, the breathyvoice.
But before she was a legend,she was Norma Jean, a survivor,
a woman whose dreams,disappointments and

(05:24):
extraordinary fame collided withthe most powerful family in
America.
And tonight we kind of gobeyond the myths and we honor
her life, her resilience and thequestions that remain more than
60 years after she died.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
You know she's one I've never really looked like.
I know there's a lot ofconspiracy and stuff around her,
but I've never looked into it.
A lot of this will be new to meokay, cool, I'm glad.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Um, all right.
So I kind of broke it into likesegments or chapters just to
kind of like make it kind ofeasy, all right.
So Norma Jean, so kind ofbefore the spotlight, if you
didn't.
She was born Norma JeanMortensen on June 1st 1926 in
Los Angeles.
Her birth certificate listedEdward Mortensen as her father,

(06:13):
but her mother, gladys, latersaid he was not her biological
father.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's widely believed, her biological father was
Charles Stanley Gifford, gladys'former colleague, but Norma
Jean never met him.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Okay, okay, the controversy starts early.
You have no idea.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Basically there was a lot of instability in her life,
so Gladys was declared legallyinsane.
In 1934, when Marilyn was eight, gladys worked as a film cutter
at a film industry and thenthat job connected her, like,
indirectly, to Hollywood and shebattled paranoid schizophrenia

(06:51):
and severe depression.
Sometimes she would disappearfor days or spiral into
delusions that people weretrying to kidnap her child.
So kidnap Marilyn, are you good?

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, I'm making faces at you.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Sorry, I wish everyone could see you All right
.
So when Marilyn was just seven,gladys suffered a complete
breakdown and was instantinstitutionalized permanently.
So Norma Jean spent herchildhood in foster homes and in
orphanages.

(07:24):
So Norma Jean spent herchildhood in foster homes and in
orphanages.
She ended up living in over adozen foster homes and, for a
time, at the Los.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Angeles Orphan's Home .
She was declared a ward of thestate.
That's what most foster kidsare.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, she spent yeah, you know a lot about this.
She spent a period with familyfriend Grace McKee Goddard, who
was her legal guardian forabortion.
So at the time in Los Angeles,orphan, orphan Home Society holy
shit, carrie, get it together.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Carrie is more like it today.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
I know a time at Los Angeles Orphan's Home Society
which she remembered withsadness and isolation.
This is a quote I was neverused to being happy, so it
wasn't something I ever lookedor took for granted.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Damn.
I mean, given what we knowabout her life so far, I can't
say I'm surprised.
But that still is just awful.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Biographers noted she experienced sexual abuse in
foster care.
She learned early that survivalmeant adaptation and making
herself likable to adults aroundher, which in turn she ended up
marrying at 16 to avoidreturning to an institution.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Dang.
She was married young.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Well, when her guardian I didn't know this, so
I don't think this is a thingnow, but when her guardian's
husband was transferred out ofstate, California law prevented
taking her along unless she wasmarried, which doesn't make
sense to me, because if you'reher guardian, why does it matter
if her husband's leaving thestate?

Speaker 1 (08:56):
So because she had a guardian, but she was still a
ward of the state.
So the state basically appointsthe guardian to stand in as the
parent.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
But why did she have to get married to move?
That's so weird to me.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I think this is and this is just me guessing.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love your opinion.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
But the laws at that time probably would have said
that she would have remained award of the state until she was
18 years old or married, becausewomen were still kind of seen
as possession back then.
Yeah, that's true.
So once you're married you kindof belong to the husband.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Okay, so at age 16, she married the neighbor's son,
which can you imagine being?

Speaker 1 (09:34):
married at 16?
God, no, I could hardlyfunction as a human at 16.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
I know so, james Doherty.
She married on June 19th of1942.
She later described it as quote, like being rescued.
She quickly ended up feelingtrapped in a domestic life.
While her husband servedoverseas during World War Two,
norma Jean worked at Radio PlaneFactory, spraying airplane

(10:02):
parts with fire radiant Nope.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Retardant, retardant.
Thank you, Nope All right, wedon't want the flames to radiate
.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
No.
So determined not to be ahousewife forever, she found
work to support herself, andthis is a quote.
I have too many fantasies to bea housewife, I guess I am a
fantasy, she said, and I lovethat.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
She kind of knew where she was going from day one
.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
She's the queen of manifestation, let me just tell
you.
Okay.
So at the factory she was knownas a cheerful, pretty worker,
nicknamed the blue eyed girlwith curls.
The factory was part of themassive wartime industrial boom,
with thousands of womenreplacing men who were off
fighting.
And then this is kind of justlike a quote that she had, like
in her younger years.
I used to think as I looked outon the Hollywood light, there

(10:54):
must be thousands of girlssitting alone, like me, dreaming
of becoming a movie star.
But I'm not going to worryabout them, I'm dreaming the
hardest.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Isn't that so I just love how bold she was always so
bold.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Okay.
So now this kind of brings usto like her discovery.
So in late summer 1944, davidConover, an army photographer
working for the US government,visited Radio Plane and his
assignment was to shootmorale-boosting photos of female
workers for the YANK magazineand other publications.

(11:31):
So Supervisor Leon pointedConover to Norma Jean saying
quote you might want tophotograph this kid, she's got
something.
You might want to photographthis kid, she's got something.
And then Conover later wroteshe was a vivacious young girl
with curly hair and wide eyes.
She had a quality I had neverseen.

(11:53):
And when Conover began snappingphotos, norma Jean instantly
came alive in front of thecamera, smiling, confident and
radiant.
And you can just picture thatexact smile in your head and
radiant, and you can justpicture that exact smile in your
head 100%.
So those photos were publishedin military publications and
Norma Jean saw the possibilityof a future beyond assembly

(12:13):
lines.
So she decided to pursuemodeling seriously.
She straightened her naturallycurly hair, dyed it golden
blonde, she bought a moresophisticated wardrobe and then
she ended up signing with BlueBook Model Agency, owned by
Emmeline Snindley, I believethat's how you say it, and she
ended up coaching her in posingand public presentation, and she

(12:35):
quickly became one of BlueBook's most in-demand models.
She appeared in dozens of printads and magazine covers and she
was soon earning $100 an hour,a significant sum in the 1940s.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Holy shit, yeah, how many hours was she working.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Well, I don't know, like what's a?

Speaker 1 (12:53):
photo shoot.
It couldn't have been thatmoney, Well eight hours eight
nine, 10, 12 hours.
That's insane in today's money.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
I mean photo shoots go really long, Good for her.
Oh yeah, all right.
So then that brings us kind ofto like her first screen test.
So her modeling work caught theeye of Ben Lyon, a casting
director at 20th Century Fox,and he gave her a screen test in
August 1946.
And he later said it's JeanHarlow all over again.

(13:22):
She's got the same naturalness,the same sex appeal, the same
body, and Jean Harlow was areally famous actress.
I think if you looked her upyou would know her.
But she was more of like.
I know she was born in like1911, but I think she was more
prominent in the 1920s and 1930s, like late 30s.
But if you, if you look her up,you'll know exactly who I'm
talking about yeah, no, she waslike yeah literally the

(13:45):
pre-madonna.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Well, yeah, well, pre-madonna, pre she's.
Yeah, we get it.
Who are we talking about?
Marilyn?
Marilyn, I'm saying pre-madonnais a totally different phrase,
pr.
Okay, whatever, we got it.
She looks like a originalmarilyn monroe yes.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
So Lion helped her choose a new name, marilyn,
after Broadway star MarilynMiller Monroe, her mother's
maiden name, which I find wildbecause she doesn't really have
fond memories of her mother.
I mean, they're not bad ones,but obviously her mother really
struggled.
But Marilyn was quoted sayingMarilynilyn monroe.

(14:25):
It sounded glamorous.
Norma jean sounded like thegirl who never had a room of her
own, and that breaks my fuckingheart it breaks, it's
heartbreaking like I also justmakes me think of um what was in
the show reba the super countrygirls, the neighbor name it was
.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
It was like Barbie, jean or something.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh, I don't know, I never Maybe.
It's all I keep thinking about.
But it makes me so sad that shethought that Norma Jean just
basically that reminded her ofhow awful her life was.
Yeah, and that's really sad.
So she signed her first sixmonth contract with Fox in
August 1946.
She was just 20 years old,which is wild.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Hey, good for her.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
And again, like I kind of already said, I would
say that she was the queen ofmanifesting.
So it's easy for us to sayMarilyn Monroe was discovered,
but she discovered herself.
She walked into a factory everyday during a world war hoping
for something better, and when aphotographer aimed his lens she
saw a door opening and shestepped right through it.

(15:27):
Marilyn said when thephotographer said, smile, I did
it.
I knew it was my way out.
But behind the pinup smiles wasa woman fighting lifelong
insecurity, depression and afear of abandonment, and that
would haunt her relationshipsforever.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, there's kind of a lot to unpack there in her
past.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
So this kind of brings us to like her rise of
fame.
So in 1946, she signed withCentury Fox.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
And she changed her name officially to Marilyn
Monroe.
Small films parts in her latelike in the late 40s, and she
was frequently typecast intothat role.
We all know it.
Her breakthrough was in 1950,roles in the Asphalt Jungle and
All About Eve earned criticalnotice, and in 1953, she became
a global star with Nigeria,Gentlemen Prefer Blondes and how

(16:18):
to Marry a Millionaire theinfamous skirt-blowing scene
from the Seven-Year year itch.
That was in 1955.
And that cemented her sexsymbol status.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Oh yeah, I mean, that is just a image that is burned
into pop culture yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
So to the world, marilyn Monroe was the ultimate
fantasy, an icon of beauty anddesire, but behind the camera
flashes and the box officerecords was a woman who was, who
never stopped reaching forsomething more.
While hollywood saw a blondebombshell, marilyn was quietly
determined to prove she had amind every bit as remarkable as

(16:59):
her image, and it was in herprivate moments alone, with her
books and her thoughts, that shetried to find the respect she
was so often denied.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
You have to praise her for her resiliency.
I mean for all that she wentthrough in the past to just like
wow.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
So this kind of brings me to like her
intellectual pursuits.
So, despite her image, she wasan avid reader and she owned
over 400 books in her ownlibrary and you'd find subjects
that ranged from classicliterature, psychology,
philosophy, poetry, politics andreligion.
Photographer George Barrisrecalled people would be shocked

(17:40):
at what she read.
She always carried books withher.
She never wanted to stoplearning, and that is not what
we talk about when we talk aboutno, not at all.
She read, she always carriedbooks with her.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
She never wanted to stop learning, and that is not
what we talk about when we talkabout her?

Speaker 2 (17:49):
No, not at all.
No.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Which is amazing.
I mean, it's amazing, notamazing that we don't talk about
it.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
We know what you mean .

Speaker 1 (17:54):
It's amazing that she was a smart little cookie.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
I know.
So in 1955, she enrolled at theActor's Studio in New York to
study method acting under LeeStrasberg, and this was the most
respected method acting workingin America at the time, and she
was determined to grow beyondthat typecasting.
She really took this seriously.
Lee Strasberg said she had anenormous talent, an instinct for

(18:17):
truth, a deep need tounderstand human nature.
Okay, so she also studied atStanislavski's techniques, which
focused on creating believableand emotionally authentic
performances throughpsychological realism.
She took private lessons onvoice projection, movement and

(18:38):
emotional memory.
And even as she was mocked bythe press for slumming it with
intellectuals, she never gave up.
I want to be an artist, anactress with integrity, not just
a fake image that everyone canlaugh at.
She even had private writings.
So Marilyn kept journals fullof reflections, poetry and
observations, and one of herquick little blurbs from one of

(19:01):
her poems is Life.
I am of both your directions,somehow remaining hanging
downward the most, but strong asa cobweb in the wind.
I exist more with the cold,glistening frost, but my beaded
rays have the colors I've seenin a painting.
Ah, life, they have cheated you.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Dang.
I know my brain sticks on thestrong like a cobweb and wind
because it is strong, but it'sso delicate at the same time.
Oh.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
OK, so in 19 found 19 , five and 19 five.
Sorry y'all, I know I'm talkingfast, but there's a lot to get
through.
Ok, so in 1955, she founded herown production company, which
was almost unheard of as a womanat the time, and her goal was
to negotiate better contracts,pick more serious roles and
prove that she was not just astudio puppet.

(19:53):
This move inspired latergenerations of actresses to take
control of their careers.
So Arthur Miller Arthur Miller,which was a Pulitzer winning
playwright, was quoted sayingshe was much smarter than people
gave her credit for.
She could grasp ideas quickly,ask the right questions and

(20:13):
challenge you.
She had a poetic soul and asharp mind.
But, if we remember, she wasmarried and James did not
approve of her modelingambitions.
So in 1946, she chose hercareer that she was really
working hard for over themarriage.
Good for her, and so she child,she child.

(20:38):
She filed for divorce, citingmental cruelty, but really it
was her refusal to stay in adomestic role, and James later
said she wanted something Icouldn't give her.
She wanted to be famous, andMarilyn rarely spoke of him in
later years, calling it ateenage marriage to a nice boy.
But that was really it.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
I mean from the ages that she was with him.
If you think about like, I feellike we had relationships at
those times and we're only inour 30s now and we don't talk
about them.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
So right, but I just mean because she's a public
figure, so you know.
So many people are talkingabout what?
About your marriage?
Your marriage failed.
Oh my God, tell me about yourmarriage, come on.
So she was very smart in theway that she thought it was a
teenage marriage and that was it.
Fair, get out of my face,biatches.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Fair enough.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
All right.
So this kind of brings us toher marriages.
So, Joe DiMaggio, I feel likethat's like one of her most in
my eyes, like famous marriage.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
So she was married from January 14th 1954, and they
were divorced on October 27thof 1954.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
So iconic, but short.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
He was a baseball legend and American hero and at
the time of their marriage Joehad recently retired as one of
the most of one of the greatestplayers of all time.
And they met in 1952 becauseJoe asked a friend in Hollywood
to arrange a date.
Despite being opposites, theywere quickly inseparable and he
was very much captivated by herinnocence and vulnerability and

(22:02):
she was drawn to his strengthsand desire to protect her.
Their wedding in San Franciscodrew a massive press attention.
I can only imagine like abaseball legend in Marilyn
Monroe.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
But kind of here's where another marriage seems to
crumble.
He wanted her to quit actingand modeling.
He was deeply uncomfortablewith the like fame and her sex
symbol status.
Their most famous fight cameafter the filming of the seven
year itch, that skirt blowingscene that we talked about, and
hundreds of men cheered as herdress flew up in the front of

(22:36):
the cameras and Joe was.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's what we call fragile masculinity.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
He was furious and humiliated and just 270 days
after marrying, marilyn filedfor divorce, again citing mental
cruelty, and she wept in courtas she explained that she
couldn't live under his control.
And she was quoted saying Iloved Joe, but he wanted me to
be something that I couldn'tlive under his control.
And she was quoted saying Iloved Joe but he wanted me to be
something that I couldn't be.
But despite the divorce, joeremained devoted to Marilyn.

(23:05):
He helped her through all ofher hospitalizations and her
sicknesses and he actuallyarranged her funeral and he sent
roses to her crypt every weekfor 20 effing years.
And I'm sorry, but if that'snot just like at least a really
great friendship, I don't knowwhat is.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
I mean, if I ever have even close to that effect
on a man, I will call it a win,exactly.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
And then this brings us to Arthur Miller, who she
married June 29th 1956, and theywere divorced January 24th 1961
.
And, like I said earlier, hewas a prize winning playwright,
author of Death of a Salesmanand the Crucible.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Which are both plays we had to read in middle school.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
And I find they were both horribly boring, oh well,
he was known for hisintellectualism and his moral
seriousness, so that's probablywhy he's boring.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
They were definitely very serious.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, they met in 1951, kind of briefly, and they
reconnected years later throughfriends.
They began exchanging letters,which I find so cute.
So Marilyn later said that shefell in love with his mind.
She yearned for respectabilityand intellectual connection and
he admired her sensitivity.
So Marilyn converted to Judaismbefore the wedding for him and

(24:22):
she took her craft of actingmore seriously at the time.
So she was moving to New Yorkand studying with Lee Strasberg,
like I said, here's kind ofwhere like the struggles with
Marilyn kind of happen.
So she really really battledwith anxiety and addict and her
addiction worsened and arthurwrote in his journal that he was
sometimes disappointed andoverwhelmed.

(24:44):
And she actually discoveredthis note and he that he had
confessed and that he wasembarrassed by her behavior and
this like just broke her heart.
Oh, she was just likedistraught that he felt that he
was like overwhelmed anddisappointed in her.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
That'd be hard to read, though, about yourself, I
mean it should be a wake up call.
Maybe a little bit.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, no, because if you're suffering with anxiety,
though, you can't help that, andfor somebody, that's been
struggling so many years forjust loneliness.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
I thought it was more the addiction than the anxiety.
No, no, no, okay.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, I think it's just like all of it, but can you
imagine like the person thatyou feel is so intellectual and
that your mind really connectedwith is a disappointment, or
you're a disappointment to you?

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I can't imagine that would be so hard.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
So in this marriage she suffered multiple
miscarriages, which is just soheartbreaking in itself.
They ended up filing fordivorce in Mexico in 1961.
The relationship ended withdeep sadness on both sides and
Arthur was set had said she wasa poet on a street corner trying
to recite to a crowd pulling ather clothes, and that fucking

(25:49):
pisses me off.
She married three men, eachoffering something she thought
that she needed.
With James it was she searchedfor security, joe, for
protection, and then Arthur,like she hoped for, like respect
and intellect, but at the endno husband could actually fill
the emptiness that she carriedfrom childhood and like the

(26:10):
feeling that love was alwaysjust like out of reach, like her
marriages.
I don't think they werefailures.
They were reflections of herlonging for like that protection
, understanding, respect.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
I think there's also just something to say.
With people who have that bigof a personality, it's so hard
to find a partner, especially inthe Well, in your strong sexism
of the time, yeah right, it'seven now.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
What are you?

Speaker 1 (26:32):
talking about?
Oh, I mean well, let's behonest.
We you talking about?
Well, oh?
Oh, I mean.
Well, let's be honest, we'reback in the 50s, but no, it's.
It would be so difficult tofind somebody who gives you what
you need emotionally and alsosupports your career.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
That quote pissed me off so much when I was doing
this research, but that's a bigquote.
That's a fucked up quote.
I have goosebumps, but Marilynonce said I knew I belonged to
the public and to the world, notbecause I was talented or
beautiful, but because I hadnever belonged to anything or
anyone else.
And that is so All right.

(27:08):
So let's kind of move into thehealth struggles that she did
have.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Real quick before you do that.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
That is so I know but I'm going to start crying.
Humanizing.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
I know.
I know because I mean you takeicons like marilyn monroe and
other people like that and youput them on pedestals and like,
oh, their life must have been sogrand.
Those are just such normalstruggle, not normal struggle.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
I don't want to like normalize their struggle, but
it's something that so manypeople deal with that you just
assume celebrity doesn't so thisis why I've always really loved
Marilyn Monroe and, like youknow how everyone well I don't
know but like when I was likeyounger, like high school in my
early twenties like all thegirls would get like a Marilyn
Monroe tattoo or have likeMarilyn Monroe shirts or posters
.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Or get the Marilyn Monroe piercing.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
I mean, I have that, naturally, so.
But the Monroe piercing, yeah,but I never really liked that
because I feel like they werememorializing her for the wrong
reasons and they didn't actuallyknow about her.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
And.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
I read a book about her when I was probably 19.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
And I have been in and it was about her.
Well, we'll get into it, but itwas about her suicide slash,
fucking murder.
We'll get into it, but it wasabout her suicide slash, fucking
murder.
And I've never gotten over itbecause I'm like I just I don't
know what it was.
I just have always known thatthere's something about Marilyn
that people didn't know, evenbefore.
I researched her, looked intoher and read this book and I've

(28:30):
always been fascinated for thatreason and that is also why I
will never just like displayMarilyn everywhere, because I
don't want people to think it'sbecause I think she's beautiful
and a sex symbol.
I think she's gorgeous, don'tget me wrong, that's not why I
love her.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
But there's so much more to it, to her.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yes, and that's why I really want to do this episode.
Okay, but let's get into herhealth struggles, because she
did have quite a few.
So she had endometriosis, whichI know a lot of people know, but
basically it's a painfuldisorder where tissue similar to
the uterine lining growsoutside the uterus and this

(29:06):
causes severe pelvic pain, heavymenstrual bleeding and
difficulty conceiving, which iswhy she had so many miscarriages
, and this basically affectedher obviously tremendously.
She had chronic pain and itoften left her bedridden, and
Arthur said he was quoted sayingshe wanted a child more than
anything.
Each time she lost one it tooksomething out of her that she

(29:29):
never got back.
She also had chronic insomniaand she suffered a lifelong
insomnia dating back to herchildhood, which makes sense
because she went through a lot.
So as a little girl she wasafraid to fall asleep in foster
homes and the anxiety carriedinto adulthood and she often
laid awake for hours and shebasically had extreme exhaustion

(29:50):
on film sets and basically thismade her rely on barbiturates
and sedatives to sleep.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
There we go.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
And sometimes she makes sleeping pills with
alcohol, which worsened herdepression, and she was quoted
saying I have too many dreams tosleep, which is we don't have
to break that down.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
We just don't have it .
Yeah, we can.
We can figure out what thatmeans.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
So, alongside her physical pain, marilyn battled
severe anxiety and depression.
The pressure of fame and herfear of abandonment and the
relentless scrutiny of herpublic.
It all fed into the cycle ofinsomnia, panic attacks and deep
sadness that she could neverfully escape.
So I can't imagine havinganxiety, depression, insomnia

(30:36):
and endometriosis and also haveall of these idiots that you
married because you thought theywere going to help you through
basically all of this and theyjust didn't.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
That's a lot going on .

Speaker 2 (30:48):
This is when we get into the romance with the
Kennedys.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Let's go All right.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
So how they met Marilyn was already like at the
height of her fame in the 1950sand she moved in an elite
Hollywood circle, in eliteHollywood circles, and she often
was invited to parties at PeterLawford's Beach House in Santa
Monica.
Peter Lawford was a Britishborn actor and a member of the

(31:15):
Rat Pack was a British-bornactor and a member of the Rat
Pack and he married PatriciaKennedy, jfk's sister, in 1954,
which cemented his place inKennedy's social circles.
Frank Sinatra was also a mutualfriend of both Marilyn and the
Kennedys and Sinatra introducedher to exclusive gatherings
where she met politicians andall these you know high-end

(31:37):
people where she met politiciansand all these you know high end
people.
So there were often informalget togethers combining
entertainment and politicalfundraising.
So, according to biographerDonald Spoto, peter Lawford told
friends Marilyn this is a quoteMarilyn was treated like the
ultimate trophy guest.

(31:58):
Everybody wanted to be near her.
So how it kind of started wasit's like?
Nobody really agrees on theexact date, but most historians
say Marilyn first met JFK atLawford's Malibu home.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
OK.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
And she later described him and this was a
quote as charming.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Was he president at the time?
No, I don't believe.
When she met him, OK, and shelater described him and this was
a quote as charming.
Was he president at the time?

Speaker 2 (32:18):
No, I don't believe when she met him.
Ok, but I do have dates in asecond.
But she did describe him ascharming, witty and so handsome.
It was almost embarrassing.
And, like so many, marilyn wasdrawn to JFK's charm and
charisma but, unlike the others,she believed their affair was
something deeper, a connectionthat might finally make her feel

(32:40):
wanted.
And if you didn't listen to,like two weeks ago we did a deep
dive on JFK and the Kennedysand how awful they are Three
weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
There we go, couple episodes ago.
Y'all Just scroll back a littlebit, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
JFK and the affair.
So again, the most crediblesources place the beginning of
the affair in like the late1961s or early 62.
It's not really known.
Oh, I guess I did lie to youbecause then he was in his first
year of presidency.
But again, I don't know if theymet.
I think they might have likemet before.
Like kind of been in the samecircles, yeah, but their affair

(33:16):
started in his first year, sotheir contact was mainly at
private events or private visits, I should say at Lawford's
house, so that beach house, orwhen JFK came to California,
friends recalled that Marilynwas captivated by his charisma,
hello, and she confided in herclose friend Jeannie Carmen that

(33:38):
she thought it was more than afair.
She believed that he mightactually leave Jacqueline
Kennedy.
So historian Robert Delick andauthor J Randy Terrabiroli I
believe it is.
They both note that there is noevidence, though, that JFK ever
intended anything serious, andto that I say you can go F

(34:00):
yourself, because, of course not, because he was a playboy
addicted to all of the drugs.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
And the women.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Right, so there was nothing serious in his brain,
but that doesn't mean he didn'ttell her that it was serious.
Oh yeah, so just because youhistorians cannot prove that,
that you can go F yourself,sorry, all right, so here are
some accounts of like the staff,and this is totally unbiased.
So accounts from the staff.
The White House aide, KennethO'Donnell, later insisted in a

(34:32):
quote it was just a fling.
Jack had lots of flings.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
We already know that, that we do know.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Marilyn was reported frequently calling the White
House, which alarmed Kennedyaides, which I get.
According to Anthony Summers'goddess, Bobby Kennedy asked
Lawford to persuade her to stopcalling.
We know that Lawford is marriedto one of the Kennedys and
they're good friends, so he waskind of like yo.
So Robert Kennedy was like youneed to like do something about

(35:02):
your friend, yeah.
So JFK's circle kind of feltthat Marilyn was becoming too
emotionally attached and theaffair likely fizzled out in the
early spring of 1962.
But again, we don't actuallyknow.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
So we know how his circle felt.
Do we know how he felt about it?
We don't actually know.
So we know how his circle felt.
Do we know how he felt about it?
I don't know if he fucking hadI mean we can assume, but I
don't know if he had any actualfeelings because the dr feelgood
was pumping him that, yeah, heto not feel he probably didn't
have, or if he had feelings theymight not have been true.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Right, okay, so just like as a reminder, while JFK
was the charmer, rfk was oftenthe enforcer, the one who
stepped in to clean up hisbrother's messes or, in
Marilyn's case, to make sure thepast stayed buried.
And that brings us to RobertKennedy.
So, if you didn't know, afterJFK cooled down the relationship

(35:56):
, marilyn saw Robert Kennedymore frequently and she that
probably didn't know.
So he was attorney general andhe often was in California on
official business.
Now some sources suggest anaffair was with RFK and that
began in the mid-1962, thoughothers believe that they were
mainly just friendly contracts.
And I don't know.

(36:18):
I don't have an opinion eitherway on that.
But Anthony Summers Goddessincludes in an interview
claiming RFK visited herBrentwood home several times.
However, many historians arecautious about these claims.
There are no photos, letters orconfirmed records proving in an
affair with Robert, which,whatever, that doesn't mean it

(36:38):
didn't happen.
So what's kind of?
Generally?

Speaker 1 (36:40):
agreed.
No, it just means somebody wastight-lipped for once, right.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
So what was generally agreed is that Bobby Kennedy or
Robert Kennedy was sent tosmooth things over with Marilyn
and discourage further calls toJFK, which that 100 makes sense,
because we already know that hewas JFK's muscle, if you will.
Clean up crew, so thatinteraction may have fueled her
belief that she was being shutout.

(37:03):
And this kind of brings us,though, to the birthday gala, as
you were so not greatly singingto us earlier I sounded just
like her this event was on don't, don't skirt over that 1962.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Tell me I did good.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
No, it was at Madison Square Garden in New York and
the occasion was for a massiveDemocratic fundraiser.
And it was an early birthdaycelebration for JFK.
His birthday was on May 29thand the audience was about
15,000 people, includingcelebrities, journalists and
political power brokers.
The dress okay, marilyn wore acustom-made Jean Lewis gown with

(37:44):
2,500 hand-sewn rhinestones.
Hand-sewn, hand-sewnrhinestones.
Is this the one that it was?
Stop, it was so sheer that shereportedly was sewn into it and
under the bright stage lights italmost looked nude.
We all know this dress, okay.
She walked onto the stagedraped in a white fur coat,

(38:07):
slowly peeled it off andrevealed the dress, prompting
gasps from the audience, and shesang oh, that was racy.
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday, mr President.
Thanks, mr President, for allthe things that you've done, the
battles that you've won.
This moment was so provocative.
It made headlines worldwide andafter she finished, jfk stepped

(38:32):
up to the mic and joked I cannow retire from politics after
having had happy birthday sangto me in such a sweet wholesome
way.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Oh, Jackie had to be just losing her shit behind the
scenes.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Jackie Kennedy refused to go to the gala and
she stayed in Virginia and thatperformance actually became one
of the most famous moments inMarilyn's life and one that she
would never, ever escape.
The aftermath of the gala wasbasically that Kennedy's aides
became very alarmed by thespectacle and the media

(39:08):
attention, and Peter Lawford andBobby Kennedy that's kind of
when they really were like, ok,we need to make major efforts to
distance her from JFK and anyassociation like with them two
together.
That's when her phone callsstarted going unanswered and her
friends, include includedJeannie and Ralph Roberts, said
that she felt embarrassed andhumiliated and that she had

(39:30):
exposed herself publicly andstill ended up alone.
And, according to Carmen,marilyn said maybe I shouldn't
have sung to him like that,maybe it was too much, and this
is kind of when her isolationwhether it was real or in her
head, you decide kind of started.
So by the summer of 1962,marilyn was in the most

(39:52):
vulnerable state of her life.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
I think the isolation , whether it's real or in your
head, like they becomeself-feeding machines Correct,
you know what I mean.
So if it's in your head, yeah,it's going to become real.
If you start to feel likeyou're being isolated, you're
probably going to isolateyourself.
Not, I am not victim blaming inthat.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
No, I know.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Just say, those two systems feed each other
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
So basically in 1962, this is when she became the
most vulnerable in her life, soshe was recently actually fired
from Something's filming so 17out of 30 due to her serious
illness with the sinusinfections, bronchitis and her
chronic pain with herendometriosis.
At the same time, 20th centuryfox nearly was nearly bankrupt
because of cleopatra, so theyblamed her for delays and used

(40:53):
her absence as an excuse to cutcords oh yeah, why not blame
somebody?
right, so things got even worseafter she left to sing the happy
birthday of Mr President, whichmade headlines and embarrassed
the studio, and on June 8th 1962, fox fired her for breach of
contract and sued her.
What I will say, though, isthat and I can't believe I
didn't put this in my notes Oneof the directors, though, said

(41:15):
that he would refuse to continueon with Fox if they didn't
rehire Marilyn, and theyactually did end up rehiring her
.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
OK, so remember how she was always reading and
writing.
This kind of brings us to herdiary, and if you don't know a
lot about Marilyn in the backstory, which you might not know,
this there is the Red Diary.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
OK yeah, this is all stuff I don't know anything
about.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
This is a very prominent thing that people will
dispute if it was a suicideoverdose, a drug overdose, a
murder, whatever this Red Diaryexisted or didn't exist.
This is a big dispute.
Okay so she had a small redleather notebook and she
supposedly kept it near her bed.
According to accounts, shefilled it with notes about her

(42:01):
phone calls and privateconversations, details of her
relationships with JFK and RFK,observations she overheard at
gatherings, including politicalgossip and possibly sensitive
government topics.
Okay so she's a smart ass woman, very smart.
Why the hell wouldn't she havea diary and why the hell would

(42:24):
she have not done all thesethings?
We can just stop at that point.
But these are the people thatclaimed it existed.
Eunice Murray, her housekeeper.
In later interviews she saidMarilyn often wrote in her
Little Red Book, especiallyafter phone calls, but she never
produced a diary herself, likeshe could never show it to
anybody.
Okay, fred Otash was a privatedetective, a notorious Hollywood

(42:48):
fixer who wiretaps celebrities,and he claimed he had bugged
Marilyn's phone for HowardHughes and studio bosses had
bugged Maryland's phone forHoward Hughes and studio bosses.
Otesh told author AnthonySummers he believed the diary
contained material that couldbring down the government.
That was a quote Bring down thegovernment Yikes.
However, there was no recordingor physical evidence that he

(43:11):
ever surfaced.
Lionel Grandinson he was acoroner's office clerk and he
claimed he personally handledthe diary after the death and he
was pursued, pursued, pressured.
He was pressured to removereferences of the Kennedys.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Oh, that's so shocking.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
His credibility was often like widely disputed as he
made conflicting statementsover the years.
But I'm sorry, if you arepressured to remove things from
the Kennedys, you're alsoprobably pressured to like take
back things that you've said.
Yeah, anthony Summers.
So in his book in 1985, itincluded extensive interviews
suggesting the diary was real.

(43:52):
He concluded that there wasreason to suspect it contained
politically explosive entries,but also noted no one has ever
produced it.
People loved to call her a dumbblonde, never realizing she was
carefully playing the part andquietly recording everything in
her diary.
Behind that innocent smile wasa woman who saw more, remembered

(44:14):
more and understood more thananyone ever guessed.
And a quote from Marilynherself I can be smart when it's
important, but most men don'tlike it.
And this kind of brings us towhy she could have been paranoid
, because this topic is FBI andsurveillance.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Oh God.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
So FBI files.
They recently declassifiedfiles and they confirm Marilyn
was under FBI surveillance dueto her friendships with the left
leftist who was suspected ofcommunist sympathies and
multiple references to phonetaps and reports about her

(45:00):
association with the Kennedyfamily.
So J Edgar Hoover's interest.
So the FBI directed directorwas intensely interested in
gathering dirt on the Kennedysand so, hello, Marilyn's
connection to both brothersbecame part of that broader
effort.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
So I wonder why the FBI wanted to blow up the
Kennedys because he blamed themfor everything.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Right.
So this is actually a quotefrom an FBI memo.
Subject has become a securityconcern because of her personal
ties to prominent politicalfigures.
It wasn't just in her head.
While she grew more paranoid,the FBI was really watching,
tracking her calls, herfriendships and every rumor that

(45:45):
tied her to the Kennedys.
Which brings us to her paranoiain her final weeks Basically
her behavior.
So in July 1962, marilyn toldher psychiatrist, dr Ralph
Greenson, that she believed herphones were being tapped, cars
were parked near her home towatch her and she was being

(46:06):
followed.
When she left her house andaccording to her friend accounts
, jeannie Carmen describedMarilyn pacing the floor worried
about the quote, the men whowere listening, and Ralph
Roberts recalled she thought herhousekeeper was reporting on
her to the to Bobby Kennedy.
So biographers agree that shewas highly anxious, though it's

(46:30):
not clear whether her fears werejustified or a combination of
stress and medication.
And this kind of brings us towhat I was talking about, where
it's like no one.
The red diary is like just likea big thing.
So this is the disappearance ofher diary is like the biggest
thing.
So after her death, euniceMurray, which was her
housekeeper, and Dr Greensonwere reportedly the first to

(46:54):
access Marilyn's bedroom, andMurray claimed that she saw the
diary and later couldn't find it.
The LAPD inventory of herpossessions did not list the
diary.
Why wouldn't it Right?
So conspiracy theorists?

Speaker 1 (47:07):
argue.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah argue it was removed to protect the Kennedys.
The official position is thatthe Los Angeles County District
Attorney's 1982 review concludedthere were no credible evidence
the diary existed or containedstate secrets.
I agree, Not even a goddamn bit.

(47:28):
No, it just makes no sense,because back then too, you don't
have anything but a diary towrite your stuff down in right,
and she was a writer, a poet,she was intellectual, like she
observed, and she wanted to takenote and better her practice
and be around theseintellectuals definitely existed
why the f?
would she not have this?

(47:49):
All right, now I'm gonna go.
I know we're already a lot in,but I'm gonna go through the
night that she died.
Have this All right.
Now I'm going to go.
I know we're already a lot in,but I'm going to go through the
night that she died Because Idon't know.
You're somebody that probablydoesn't know all this and I
don't know if a lot of peopleknow.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
I don't know.
A ton of details.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
All right.
So August 4th, 1962, the lastday.
So this is I kind of put it inchronological order so the
morning and the early afternoon.
So Marilyn woke up at herBrentwood home, which is 12305
5th Helena Drive, around 8am andher housekeeper, eunice, was
there and she was cleaning anddoing laundry.

(48:21):
Marilyn had scheduledappointments that day.
She had a massage with RalphRoberts and a therapy session by
phone with Dr Ralph Greenson,her psychiatrist.
She spent part of the dayreading and, reportedly,
arranging plans for the upcomingweek.
So around noon to 4 pm Marilynreceived a delivery of furniture
.
She was redoing her home.

(48:42):
She also made calls to herlawyer, milton Rudin, about her
contract negotiations with Foxbecause, remember, they were
going to rehire her.
Okay.
So she spoke to herphotographer, lauren Schiller,
planning publicity photos andaccording to several sources she
was in good spirits, discussinggoing back to work.

(49:02):
So she was very excited aboutthis.
So she was just happy.
Okay.
Late afternoon, four to five,dr Greenson actually arrived for
an in-person therapy sessionand they were supported,
spending about 90 minutestalking, and he said she was
anxious but not suicidal, that'sthat's kind of a big tell.

(49:26):
Well, because?
Well, no, because he was askedafter two sessions with her that
day and he's like he hasmultiple sessions with her all
the time.
It wasn't unusual for him tohave multiple sessions with her,
so one earlier in the day onthe phone and then an in-person,
so it's kind of like.
Once he was asked like, he'slike no, she was not suicidal,
she was her normal anxiety self.

(49:48):
But after that session, though,he did ask Eunice to spend the
night, which was unusual, and helater claimed he thought she
seemed vulnerable.
So I don't know.
So in the early evening she hadher calls.
So 6 to 7pm, marilyn called JoeDiMaggio Jr, her ex-stepson, to
congratulate him on hisengagement, and Joe Jr later

(50:11):
said that she sounded happy,like she was looking forward to
the future, and I just thinkit's so.
It was just amazing that shevery much kept in touch with him
, like she wanted to remain inhis life, which I found great.
7.30 to 8 pm, she phoned PeterLawford, who, remember, is the
actor and JFK's brother-in-law,and he described her voice at

(50:33):
this time as slurred, drowsy andbarely audible, and she said
something to him along the linesof say goodbye to the president
and say goodbye to yourselfbecause you're a nice guy.
Lawford was alarmed and triedto call back repeatedly but got
no answer.
That's weird.

(50:54):
We can touch back on that.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
It almost sounds manic.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
I take it a different way, because I think most
people take it as manic or thatshe had overdosed and she was
going through that part.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
I take it as she is taking a stance where she's like
you guys are shutting me out,bye.
Like I'm done with this, I'mdone trying.
You're a great friend orwhatever, like you're a good
person, but goodbye.
That's how I take it.
But I think most people twistit and take it a different way.
All right.
So later that night, between 8and 10 pm, eunice claimed that

(51:31):
she saw Marilyn going to herbedroom.
She left the light on At somepoint, marilyn took her sedative
to sleep and it's believed thatshe also took a barbiturate
capsule, either intentionally oraccidentally.
Okay.
So between 10 pm and midnightEunice said that she noticed the

(51:52):
light was still on under thedoor.
She knocked but got no response, and she later told the press
that she felt uneasy but didnothing immediately.
And this is one of, like, themain inconsistencies.
So in some statements Eunicesays that she waited until after
3 am.
In others she implied that shecalled Dr Greenson earlier,

(52:15):
which I also just don't know whyyou'd call him, but anyway,
right.
So this is like the whatever weget to the discovery of her
body.
So between 3 and 3.30 am DrGreenson was called to the house
because, again, eunice claimedthat she phoned him.
He arrived and knocked onMarilyn's locked bedroom door.
Seeing no response, he broke.

(52:36):
I don't know how her house wasset up, I forgot to look, but
I'm pretty sure it was likestill a glass window, because he
was able to break a window toopen the door.
So I think the way that theygot it.
I think she had a room thatwent outside, into her garden or
whatever, and I think that'show they ended up breaking into
her.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
That would make sense .
The outside door.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, I forgot to relook into that, but I'm pretty
sure.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
A lot of those California style houses, though,
will either have like acourtyard or some sort of like
side garden.
Yeah, OK.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Marilyn was found nude, lying face down across the
bed, phone in hand.
Her nightstand had empty pillbottles and Greenson tried to
rouse her.
And then he called herphysician, Dr Hyman Engelberg,
and at 3.50am Dr Engelbergarrived and pronounced her dead.
4.25am the LAPD was called.

(53:28):
So her official cause of deathwas that the LA County Coroner's
report said that the primarycause was acute barbiturate
poisoning and basically it givesall her blood levels and
whatever.
But we don't care about thatbecause I don't know if that's
true.
And there was no evidence offoul play.
There's no bruises consistentwith like restraint or injection

(53:50):
, with like restraint orinjection.
Remember that All right.
So chief medical examiner, DrThomas, ruled it probable
suicide.
But here's where we get to thediscrepancies and conspiracies.
So number one rigor mortistiming.
First responders noted advancedrigor mortis, suggesting she
died closer to midnight.
But official statements saidthat she was alive at 3am, which

(54:11):
I don't know.
Who said she was alive at 3am,which I don't know.
Who said she was alive at 3am,because apparently that's when
they broke in and found her deadright between 3 and 3 30.
Okay, eunice's ever-changingstory.
So she initially said that shewaited till 3am to call green
sun, but in later interviews sheclaimed that she called him
much earlier.
And in anthony summer'sinterview she admitted I was

(54:33):
told to say certain things ohokay, yeah, there's, there's a
breeding ground for conspiracyright there so the phone in her
hand she was clenched like thephone was clenched in her hand
so some said that the like shewas uh clutching the phone and
others claimed that it was likeplaced there to stage a suicide
because it just looked not likeyou just wouldn't die clenching

(54:56):
it.
I don't know the missing diary,so the red diary was never
catalog, cataloged in likepolice inventories, but some
insist it was removed beforeofficers arrived.
OK, so some people think that Idon't know who did it.
Officers arrived, okay, so somepeople think that I don't know
who did it.
The doctor, eunice, the Kennedy, somebody was called removed

(55:17):
that before LAPD even got there.
Not surprising.
And then there was the delayedin the police call Because, if
you remember, they were notcalled until what?
425, 450, something like that.
So it was basically a questionlike why was the LAPD, like why
weren't they called?
What?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
were they doing in the meantime?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (55:35):
right.
And also, why was herpsychiatrist called before her
actual doctor?

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah.
So the psychiatrist is tryingto figure out what's going on
with the medication.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
This is kind of how it looks.
When the police entered theroom, basically, like I said,
marilyn lay diagonally acrossthe bed, the phone cord was
stretched across her body, thelamp was on and then the bottles
of her Nemboot I can't even saythat word All her fucking drugs
were just beside her bed,apparently empty.
So the scene was since hassince been like, scrutinized in

(56:07):
countless books anddocumentaries, fueling endless
speculation, because it justlooked fucking staged.
I just don't know if that's howyou would die.
So before you kind of knew allthis part, what did you think of
?
Like her death, like, did youwhat?
Like, when you heard marilynmonroe died, what did you ever?

Speaker 1 (56:25):
I'm gonna be really honest, it's one of those things
I really just never looked into.
Um, I knew there was likeweirdness around it, but I've
never known any of the detailsokay.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
So here's the crazy part no pills in her stomach.
What so?
Despite a fatal dose of all ofthese drugs, apparently the
autopsy found no trace ofcapsules or pill residue in her
stomach and toxicologist drraymond abern, I believe,
testified it was unusual in theextreme.

(56:55):
And this basically latersuggests that they were either
injected or administrated viaenema, which would have been
impossible for her to do alonein her groggy state, is what
they say.
But also, why would she do thatto herself?
And if you remember, there wasno abuse, no bruises and no
injection wounds, is what thethey said earlier.
So how is that possible?

(57:16):
So then there were threewitness statements.
So Norman Jeffries, which wasMurray's son in law.
He was present at the housethat night, apparently, and he
claimed that Robert Kennedyarrived with two men and alleged
an argument and that Marilynwas hysterical.
Ok, there was also neighbors.

(57:38):
Multiple neighbors reportedseeing police cars and an
ambulance parked outside earlierin the night.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yikes.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
So before the official timelines claim and
some heard shouting.
So Peter Lawford admitted thatMarilyn called him sounding
drugged and slurring, we knowthat and that was around, I
think, like 8 pm thing, like saygoodbye to the president, blah,
blah, blah, all that stuff.
And he claimed that he tried tokeep calling but it was blocked
.
Ok, apparently, robert Kennedyvisited, like we said, and

(58:09):
several witnesses, includingLionel um grandinson, which was
the coroner office clerk, saidthat rfk was in la that day.
So he knew that.
And um retired a uh lapdofficer, lynn franklin, claimed
rfk was flown to maryland'shouse in a helicopter to
confront her about the calls tothe white house and some authors

(58:32):
, like Anthony Summers, believethat this was the point where
the situation escalated.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
And we already know from the JFK episode that there
was a history of womendisappearing.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
And so Anthony Summers wrote.
The only way to explain all thelies and contradictions is that
important men were involved andthere was something to hide.
And we also know that FBI filesconfirm that Marilyn was under
surveillance because of herassociation with Arthur Miller
and she was monitored due to herconnections with the Kennedys

(59:04):
and private detective Fred.
He claimed to have bugged herhouse and recorded calls to the
White House discussions aboutpolitics arguments with RFK, but
those tapes have never beenfound.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Of course, why would they?

Speaker 2 (59:17):
But multiple credible witnesses say that they
actually do exist.
And then there's, like thecleanup allegations.
So retired ambulance driverJames Hall claimed he was
dispatched hours earlier andMarilyn was still alive, which,
if you go back to that claimwhere it was like, well, she was
alive at 3 am but then itchanged.

(59:38):
Okay, so a doctor gave her aninjection to revive her.
So he is an ambulance driversaying he was called A doctor,
gave her an injection and whenthat failed they were told to
leave quietly.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Do we think that this injection was to revive her?
I don't.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Yeah, okay, okay so then there's other rumors, like
I said, kind of like the roomwas staged to look like a
suicide and that the diarydisappeared before the police
even ride arrived.
I don't know.
There's a lot of perspectivesthat say like it was foul, foul
play, and I think we can allagree.
Listening to all this crap andanthony summer's definitely some
room to uh to debate that yeahso and argue that side, because

(01:00:19):
I'm on that side yeah.
So he said, the cumulative,cumulative, cumulative weight of
discrepancies makes it clearthat there was a cover-up.
Whether that cover up was toconceal incompetence or murder
is the question.
So here's the other thing thatI just kind of want to like give
a second to.
It makes sense, like, let'sjust so.

(01:00:41):
She's doing all her calls,she's calling all these blah,
blah, blah.
She's just doing her normal day.
Rfk shows up, people witnessseeing him in the house with two
men.
Stop calling, stop doing this,whatever.
Right.
So she's probably she.
Well, she's already in thisstate of she's being shut out.
She's depressed, she hasanxiety.
She's already met with herpsychiatrist twice that day.

(01:01:03):
Like she is going through it,right?
So I don't think that she tookany of those sedatives and all
of those drugs because it wasn'tfound in her stomach.
Okay, we just have a statementsaying that the ambulance driver
came earlier and a doctor gaveher an injection to revive her.
That was not no fuckinginjection to revive her.
Here's the crazy part, thoughwhat I think happened.

(01:01:23):
I think there was analtercation.
I think that they called theambulance because they were
trying to admit her.
I think that's what they weretrying to do, right?
That didn't happen.
They give her an injection.
But I think she still went intoher room and I believe whether
it was staged or not, I don'tknow, but the door was locked
because it had to break in.
So I guess they could havestaged it all locked the door

(01:01:45):
and went outside and she'd belocked in, or she was hiding, I
don't know, but her crime scenelooks very staged.
But either way, let's just saythat all happened.
She runs into her bedroom, shegets kind of like, gets the cord
, whatever it could be, strewnacross her, she tries to make a
phone call.
I don't know, but I don't thinkthat she killed herself.
I don't think that sheaccidentally or purposely

(01:02:06):
overdosed.
It does not make sense to me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
I have never thought.
I'm'm almost wondering.
Here's my thoughts on it.
Right, and this is just fromthe info you presented because
I've looked into it as much asyou have.
But like I wonder if it wasjust bad timing all around.
I wonder if rfk was showing upto get her to be silent, could
be she was already kind ofcrashing out, sure, because we
know she was starting to makethese calls and she was.
And I wonder if I don't thinkthey went there with the intent

(01:02:32):
to kill her, but I thinkpossibly because the state she
was already in and then beingconfronted with it, it was like
a horrible, horrible accident.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
I don't think they went to kill her.
Let me just put that out there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
I don't think it like you said because that would be
overstepping, even for theKennedys.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
What I will say, though, is that those calls were
not.
They weren't abnormal, right,that was like a Marilyn thing.
She was always checking out onthe people that she loved, so I
don't take that as a manic thingLike you're just calling
through your rotary dial.
I don't think it was that.
That was kind of like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
No, but like the, you're not going to be present
anymore, those kind of things.
I wonder if she was alreadylike, just really going through
it, you know, know, and then youhave him show up and it just
exacerbated a situation yeah,but I don't think it was a
suicide accidental, oh yeah no,no.
I also don't know if it was anintentional murder, though, like
I don't think they set outthere with the fact I don't

(01:03:24):
think they set out to do it, butthey did it so it's intentional
.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
When you got there right, it's not murder.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
We're on the same page there all right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
So put together the contradictions from a picture
and like form, a picture moresinister than a lonely overdose,
like we just said um.
A missing diary, a timelinethat never made sense, witnesses
who were silenced ordiscredited, and a woman who
believed in her last days thatpowerful men were watching her
every move.

(01:03:52):
Maybe she was paranoid, ormaybe she was right.
What's clear, marilyn feltabandoned by those that she
loved.
Whatever happened that night,it was shaped by her
vulnerability, her isolation andthe crushing weight of fame.
And then the aftermath of herdeath.
It's so sad, but her funeralwas arranged by Joe DiMaggio,

(01:04:13):
who always looked out for her,which is really sweet.
I know he barred HollywoodStudios heads, the Kennedys and
many of the former colleaguesand for 20 years, like I had
said before, he sent roses toher crypt and she became the
first woman on the cover ofPlayboy Andy Warhol's pop art.
He immoralized her.
Feminist scholars re-examinedher Immortalized, not

(01:04:36):
immoralized, Immortalized Imeant to say that Feminist
scholars re-examined her as asymbol of exploited womanhood
and cultural projection.
Absolutely Her estate continuesto generate millions annually
and in 2022.
Wonderful kim kardashian woreher happy birthday dress to the
met gala, sparking reneweddebate over how her image is

(01:04:59):
used.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
I I knew that dress was controversial.
I guess I didn't realize it wasthe dress from that night um
she should have never beenallowed to fucking touch.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Never been allowed to touch that thing and she ripped
it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
You know that, right, oh yeah yeah, I had to be sewn
in.
And to where?
To like, was it the Met Gala,right?
Yeah, 2022 Met Gala.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
OK.
So here's a quote from ArthurMiller To have survived, she
would have had to be strongerthan anyone could have been, and
people listen.
They like to say that she wouldhave needed impossible strength
to survive, as she somehowfailed by dying.
But Marilyn didn't lackstrength.
She endured abuse, illness,exploitation and loneliness most

(01:05:40):
most of us could never imagine.
And it wasn't that she wasn'tstrong enough, it was that the
world was too cruel to someonewho kept trying to be soft.
And when she started askingquestions, when she showed she
wasn't just a pretty face,powerful white men decided that
she was easier to be discarded,discredited or silenced rather

(01:06:02):
than to be respected.
And maybe that was her realcrime daring to be intellectual
in a world that would want herto be an object instead.
And Marilyn Monroe's story isnot just a cautionary tale about
fame.
It's a story about resilienceagainst impossible odds.
A woman who wanted to be knownfor her mind, who craved love
more than admiration and who, inthe end, became a myth she

(01:06:25):
could never escape.
And tonight, as I havegoosebumps and I'm about to cry,
we honor not just her legendbut her humanity.
And I'll give you with the lastquote from Marilyn Please don't
talk to me as if I were a moviestar.
I am not.
I am not that.
And that is the tragic tale ofthe so intelligent and so

(01:06:47):
amazing Marilyn Monroe.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
And I say this knowing full well, I am one of
these, but it's always thegoddamn white man Ruin,
everything.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Mostly the straight or the closet Right.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Oh God, well done, well done.
I know, that was so long.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
I'm so sorry.
I tried to go so fast, butthere's so much you need to know
.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
There is a lot.
You have to have it all.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
So let's wrap it up really quick and knowing
everything from her childhood,the foster care, her health
issues, all those marriages, hereverything, do you think that
this was a murder?
Do you think it was a suicide?
Do you think like, what are youmore leaning to, or do you not
really have?

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Well, ok, let's say it this way Based on her past
and her trauma, I can see wherethe suicide story came from.
I also can picture where themurder came from.
I I just think it was aculmination of a lot of terrible
things all coming to a head atonce where I think if there was
a pill in her stomach, it'd beway easier to believe the
suicide.

(01:07:50):
Yeah, but I think this isprobably a confrontation at the
same time that she was reallygoing through it, and I think
this is not anything that waspremeditated, but I do think her
life was ended, and not by herown doing.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Yeah, here's what I will say.
If she never met the Kennedys,she would have lived.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Well, yeah, there's a lot to unpack in that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
This is very long.
I want to hear what you guyshave to say, so either leave it
in comments or message us, butI'm really curious as to what
you think.
Or I know that there's moretheories and there's way more to
her story.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Or call in and tell us your theories.
Phone numbers below that wouldbe more fun.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
But this has been really long, so let's wrap it up
.
What emoji should we leave forMarilyn?
Do you think A star?

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
I was thinking Okay, a gold star.
Or a book, a book, a book, abook, a book.
Yes, a little red onepreferably.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
If we have a red book but otherwise just a book.
Okay, I love you, you so muchand you know what to do, but the

(01:09:19):
most important thing that youcan do is to creep really little
eyeballs.
Goodbye, thank you At the IEshop.
The door's always open At theIE shop.

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Marilyn Monroe: American Icon's Death Shrouded in Secrecy

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