Oddball Guests: Citizen D - Crop Circles, It Can't Be People?! - Oddity Shop

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I want to dance with the mothman at the ID shop,
bathed in the moonlight at theID shop.
Creep through the graveyard tothe ID shop.
The door's always open at theID shop.

(00:29):
Welcome back my little oddballsto the Oddity Shop podcast, the
podcast where we tell youcreepy, odd, weird, strange and
bizarre stories from around theglobe.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I am one of the two curators here, Zach, sitting
here with the other lovelycurator, cara, on this bright
early morning.
How are you doing?

Speaker 1 (00:53):
I'm doing fabulous.
It is very early for us, sowe're still trying to get in the
hang of waking up, but we'regoing to keep our intro a little
bit short.
Today, you may know what thatmeans when we do this.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
I think I know what that means.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, we've got another guest today, coming
straight from the UK, nearStonehenge, I hear.
So let's just get into thisepisode and you'll understand
more of why we're keeping thisshort, and we're also not giving
you a real name, so we'll beusing an alias today, which is
very exciting.
We've never done this, sowelcome to the Addity Shop,
citizen D.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Hey D, how's it going ?

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Oh cool, I've been really looking forward to this
one.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
So excited oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
No, we've definitely been looking forward to it as
well.
Brilliant, all right.
So I know I got to speak to youbefore, but, cara, I know I've
only shared a little bit withyou so I kept Kara not totally
into what we're talking about,so there's a little bit of
surprise on her.
excellent, yes, I know nothingso what we're gonna do, kind of

(01:54):
just an icebreaker to get thingsgoing.
So D we usually start the shopby asking each other a question
that's loosely related to ourtopic for the week, but what we
want to start by asking you justto get things going here is do
you think we're being visited byaliens from other planets?

Speaker 3 (02:09):
um, if we are being visited um, first of all, I'd
say that it's alien only in thatit's alien to our understanding
, and I certainly don't thinkit's coming from another planet
okay, see, and this, this is whywe have you, because we go down
this rabbit hole of aliensaren't from other planets all
the time.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, but yeah so for our listeners.
Dee came to us from a randomemail that we get quite a few of
that.
Sometimes we open them,sometimes we read them, and this
one, this one, literally hookedus in right away.
Way so, uh d, what I'm gonna doreal quick and before I let you
introduce yourself, is justread the cover from the blurb of
a project you have coming out,called it can't be people.

(02:50):
Is that okay with you?
Absolutely perfect, perfect,all right.
So it starts with.
For over 40 years, spectacularpatterns have mysteriously
appeared overnight in the fieldsof eng's West Country.
Many believe these crop circlesto be made by ETs, time
travelers, nature, spirits, theearth itself as a sentient being
, or secret military testing.

(03:12):
It Can't Be People considersthe most controversial
alternative humans.
Everyday, people who feelcompelled to create circles are
reporting incredible events,synchronicities, time shifts,
orbs, ghostly apparitions andvisions.
In this fascinating book,interviews with these enigmatic
artists reveal that once peopleare at last inserted into the

(03:35):
picture, the mystery is fardeeper and more exciting than
the narrative, than anynarrative that excludes them All
.
Right, dee, we'll turn it overto you.
Wow, you want to give a littleintroduction here?

Speaker 3 (03:56):
What do you want to know, right?
Okay, yeah, I've beeninterviewing crop circle makers
over the past sort of six toeight years.
I'm a former crop circle maker.
And the reasons?
There's three reasons why I'mnot appearing on, appearing on
camera today.
They're all very innocent andcut and dried.
The first is that crop circlemaking is illegal in the uk.
It is not a criminal offensefor the police, but it's
trespass, criminal damage,vandalism.

(04:19):
So even now, because there's nostatute of limitation, a farmer
could still, if he ties me to acircle, I'm still in trouble 10
years on as a civil suit there.
Secondly, because it's such acontentious subject, um, that
people make crop circles.
I don't really want really thetrolling community to find out
where I live and could beoutside with the pitchforks, as

(04:41):
you know the pitchforks, youknow the pitchforks and the.
You know Absolutely yeah.
And thirdly, and this is a niceone, we believe that for as
long as the crop circles remainunauthored, as soon as a crop
circle is omitted to be man-made, that particular crop circle is
sort of unplugged.
It's demystified.
There's no mystery to it.

(05:01):
Even now, you know a cropcircle that was made 20 years
ago.
If people see an image and andthink that it's mysterious.
It retains its magic.
Okay, so, because what we, whatwe do, is not connected to ego.
Uh, we don't say, oh look, wemade that one, isn't it
fantastic, aren't I brilliant?
It's not about that.
It's about the image speakingrather than the art rather than

(05:24):
the artist speaking.
So those are the three reasonswhy I'm not appearing on camera.
That that's really it.
Um, I'm a former crop circlemaker, as, as we spoke a few
weeks ago, zach, you rememberwhat I said.
She was that.
Um, I started as just aufologist.
I was brought up on john keel,jacques veille, um, uh, jenny

(05:45):
randall's, john spencer, alllike the really good literature
from the from the 60s, 70s and80s.
I've always had a latentinterest in the paranormal and
ufology.
When I saw, when I saw, closeencounters at the age of 11 in
the cinema, my little mind wasblown.
I thought it was a document.
I thought it was a documentarybecause, as a kid, this is the
interesting bit.
As a kid, when I saw that movie, it was thought it was a great
movie.
I thought it was a documentarybecause, as a kid, this is the
interesting bit.

(06:06):
As a kid, when I saw that movie, it was like it was tapping
into some latent, untapped partof my psyche where I thought I'm
remembering this rather thanI'm seeing this for the first
time.
So, yeah, um.
So I was very, very interestedin the paranormal ufology and in

(06:26):
the ufo case books, um, uh,that were that were over here.
They used to say, right, here'sthis year's sightings.
You know, they have like gulfbreeze in there or whatever.
But then they started to put in, uh, images of crop circles and
they were single flatteningsand their preced precedents were
the Australian tully nestswhere they literally looked like

(06:49):
single circles where a flyingsaucer had birthed and then
taken off again.
But because the Australian oneswere done in grass, our ones
were done in crop, they weremuch more sort of defined
because the crop was one or twofoot high.
So we were starting to seethese images of like single
circles and they look like aflying saucer had landed and

(07:11):
gone off again, or there'd be asingle circle and like four
little satellite circles aroundit.
That looked like the day of theearth stood still.
B movie tropes of the tripodsaround the UFOs, yeah, and we
thought it was Like that typicallanding.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, all the B-movie stuff.
It was really good.
But then so they started toreport these.

(07:32):
It's like being crop circles,birthed UFOs, and I was
fascinated.
But then in 1990, we had thefirst pictograms, which were
like the Led Zeppelin cover,which you've probably seen,
where these things didn't looklike birthed UFOs, they were
sort of like door keys ordumbbells and stripes.

(07:53):
No UFO looks like that.
You know aerodynamically berubbish as well.
But what had happened was thatthe connection between UFOs and
crop circles had already becomeso ingrained that the wider
public and the communitycouldn't pull them apart.
So suddenly they turned intonot oh, they're not birth flying

(08:17):
saucers.
Now they're messages from ourspace brothers, and that part of
the phenomenon really is clunkyfor me.
I think it's a really clunkytransition.
I don't think the two things, Idon't think the early
phenomenon, which I think arereal, to be fair.
I thought we thought we can'tsee a lot of us how they were
made because the crop was likequite high and it was like you

(08:38):
can't board it that way.
So we think that the originalcrop circles are a different
phenomenon completely to the LedZeppelin cover and all the
pretty pictures we've seen since.
We think they're two completelydifferent things, yeah.
So I became very interested andI went down to Wiltshire because
that's the hub it's allhappening in Wiltshire around
these ancient sites likeStonehenge or the ancient like

(09:03):
barrows and tumuline henges andI thought, stuff, it I'm just
going to spend.
So for the first 10 years Iused to drive there and just see
the crop circles.
We used to get them from CropCircle Connector.
But this is key, guys.
If the site said, well, there's10 crop circles but two were
known to be man-made, as abeliever you just wouldn't

(09:25):
bother.
You wouldn't bother going, okay, no.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Okay, hold on, though .
I have a question for you.
What is Crop Circle ConnectorCrop?

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Circle Connector is like our sort of little that's
our nerve center.
So it's cropcircleconnectorcom,and every time a new event sort
of hits, they give you thecoordinates of where the crop
circle is, and of course thenit's flooded with with people
that are within sort of 8-12hours.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
oh, right, yeah, cool , I've never even heard of this.
All right, I got a new site toadd to my rabbit hole list.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
It won't start becoming active until sort of
may, june, because that's whenthe first crop circle is going
to be hitting.
Okay, long story short, Ibecame fascinated.
I spent the first 10 yearsgoing to the crop circles.
If somebody said that's bad mud, I wouldn't bother.
But then I thought, okay, I'vegot, I'm going to use up all my
holiday at work and I'm going tospend six weeks in the nerve
center, right in the right inthe season, right in crop circle

(10:20):
season, yeah, which is likesort of traditionally sort of
May to September.
I got six to eight prime weeksand I started to hear stories
second, third hand normally ofcrop circle makers that were
experiencing really weird shitas they were making crop circles
.
Now, at that time I held thecrop circle makers in the same

(10:44):
disdain as some of yourlisteners might hold me.
Ok, because we thought themystery was deep enough without
these idiots coming in.
And the analogy I use is if youcan imagine the magician with
the balls under the cups, ok,that's, that's already
complicated enough.
Then you get these idiotsadding another 10 cups.
Ok, it's a little bit like whenyou see, like the fake videos.

(11:07):
Now, the mystery is deep enough.
So I held these people indisdain.
I thought that they wereegotists.
I thought they were there todeceive us.
Yeah, I really hated them.
I thought that they were likebig heads and they were making
like these stories of seeinglike uaps and time shifts and
dream driven events.
It was all just all about me,me, me, look at us, okay.

(11:29):
But then I met a couple and Iwas overheard saying that I
didn't care how a crop circlegot there.
I was more concerned about itseffect.
And then one day a team said tous look, we think you're
aligned, we think you're sort oflike we're not holding

(11:50):
interviews, but we think you'rekind of like the right sort of
person.
We didn't finish your cropcircle last night.
We're finishing it tonight.
Would you like to come out withus?

Speaker 2 (12:02):
How can say no yeah?

Speaker 3 (12:03):
yeah, well, you say that, but I didn't say no.
But I can tell you there'speople that have said that, have
said yes, yes, yes.
And when you go out I can tellyou this, it's pretty boring.
All you're seeing is a half adozen people just milling about,
just, yeah, just stamping onwood for four hours.
So it's really exciting for 10minutes and you're going.

(12:24):
I'm bored now.
So so, yeah, we went out and,um, we finished this crop circle
off.
I was a fit soldier in thosedays.
So you're like a storm trip,you're like a pawn.
You just they say stomp thatyou don't know what you're doing
.
Um, you don't question that,you just do it.
And then you don't see what thebigger picture is until the
crop circle's down and you seethe pictures the next day.

(12:46):
So, um, yeah, we got this thingdone took about three hours.
It was a two-stage event, sothe whole thing took six hours
over two nights and I sawabsolutely nothing and I thought
, oh great, what a waste of time.
These people are idiots.
I can go back to seeing thereal crop circles now.
What a bunch of wasters get ajob.
Um, you know all this stuff.
And then, as soon as the cropcircle was finished, I looked at

(13:09):
the perimeter line and I saw asingle like this, this magnesium
flare, this flash, likesomebody had taken a picture on
an old polaroid camera with thebulb, well, and I thought, oh, I
thought, oh shit, that's it.
We've been, because people arealways looking in the fields to
see to circle being mademan-made or otherwise.
So I thought that's it, we'vebeen caught Somebody's taking

(13:30):
pictures of us.
Now, you know, that's my DBSdone.
That's, you know, my job's injeopardy.
Now it's busted on the veryfirst one.
Busted on the first one,absolutely right.
And the team leader was reallyblasé about it.
He wasn't worried.
And then I looked at this thingagain.
I was watching this point, andthis light turned into, turned

(13:51):
into four lights, and then sixlights and a dozen lights and
then 30 lights, and I thoughtwhat the hell is this and what
it did?
It sprinkled itself around theperimeter line of the circle and
it was defined.
It wasn't just, like you know,rough, it was right round, like
the border of the circle we'dmade.
It went right around the edges.
I describe it in my sub stackas the biggest necklace in the

(14:12):
world.
It was glistening.
And I just said to the teamleader what the hell is that?
And he said to me look, I'vegot a feeling that you are
attuned to this and this isn'tthe first one that you'll be
involved with.
Get used to this.
This is, this is the rigor,this is par for the course, it's
nothing to worry about.
And I said well, what's goingon?
He said well, it's just themtelling us that this crop circle

(14:36):
is finished.
It's a little round of applauseand it's telling us that.
It's telling us that if we doanything else to it, we're
probably going to mess it up.
So stop now.
And he looked up and he said allright, okay, we're going now.
We've done our work, you can doyours now.
What that means is that for aslong as we're in the field, it's
ours, but the second that weleave the field, it belongs to

(14:58):
the world.
It's not ours anymore.
Okay?
And he said okay, we're goingnow.
Okay, fine, so.
And I said who are you talkingto?
T?
And he went that lot upstairsand then he said okay, we're
going now.
Okay, fine.
And I said who are you talkingto?
T?
And he went that lot upstairsand then he said okay, we're
going now, bye.
And the second he said bye.
These lights just blinked offall of them and that.
And then I went out the thenext night and made another crop

(15:20):
circle with the same guy and wesaw like this pink uap appear.
At the second we did our firststop mark and it was there until
we finished and it went popblink as soon as we finished and
at that point I was hooked.
That was it for me yeah, what?

Speaker 2 (15:36):
what did that?
What was that like for you inthat first one?
Right, those lights all arefalling down like the giant
necklace.
He says you know, thank you.
Lights turn off.
Like what were you feeling?
Were you scared, were youexcited?

Speaker 3 (15:47):
this is, this is I've done lots of these interviews
and I'm sort of delving intowhat my answers are and there's
a couple of things that Ihaven't realized.
When you're actually in theexperience, it's not weird.
But yeah, I've looked at thatand I've really sort of done,
really examined myself.
Saying that and think just justthat is for it not to be

(16:09):
strange is strange.
Okay.
We think that when you're inthis environment there's this
kind of glitch where there'sthis kind of feeling that it's
like you're working in a theater.
It's very hard to explain, butit's a bit like the os factor,
okay, which you know, which I'mpretty sure you're aware of,
where people see you know peoplesee your phone.

(16:29):
There's a slight glitch, it'stiny, you're not aware of it,
but when you're actually in inthese situations you don't do
your process until afterwards.
So two weeks later you go,you're doing your washing up,
thinking, oh yeah, that, whatthe hell?
You know what the hell happenedtwo weeks ago.
You go, you're doing yourwashing up thinking oh yeah,
what the hell you know what thehell happened two weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
You know you're doing your shopping and you go hold
on a minute.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
So the answer is yeah , it's when you're doing it.
It's like not weird, it'safterwards.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, I think that's kind of like when Zach and I go
investigating and we getevidence while we're there,
we're like not afraid.
Or we're like, oh my gosh, thisis amazing, we're in it.
And then maybe like a weeklater when we rewatch it and
people we show are like, wow,that's really scary, you weren't
scared.
And then you start to thinkabout it.
You're like, ooh, should I havebeen.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Because I wasn't when I was there.
Yeah, it's exactly the same.
But at the same time, I'm verywary that we respect the
phenomenon for the reasons we'llget into, because I'm really, I
really love what Robin Williamssaid about Skinwalker.
He said look, I love it, Ireally love it, I love the whole
thing, but I don't want tobring it home with me that's
exactly how I feel, wow, so Iguess I have a question.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
So you were basically like you set a pawn, you're
just told what to do.
Stomp on over here, do thisyeah like how then?
How do you at that point like,how do they come up with the uh?
The designs, image.
But the designs, yeah, thankyou.
Or how do you come up with it?
Who?
Who decides that or like what?
Why?

Speaker 3 (17:57):
well that.
That's part of the reason whymy whole thing's called it can't
be people.
Okay, it's a really goodquestion.
First, the first chart seriesis admin.
Um, the crop circle seasonisn't um that long.
It's a really good question.
First, the first choice isadmin.
Um, the crop circle seasonisn't um that long.
It's normally sort of end ofapril.
We've had our first one now, sothe first few crop circles are
in this really mucky yellowstuff canola, like the all seed

(18:17):
stuff.
It's disgusting.
The stems are like broomsticks.
You can't do much other thanbasic stuff.
Then we get the, the wheat andthe barley and that's where the
real magic happens, because it'sreally pliable, it's really
easy to work with.
But you've only got between Mayand September tops, and it's
finished.
So we've got from October tillMarch to do our designs and it's

(18:40):
just a question of when you'rea kid you've got the spiral
grass with the compasses and theset squares.
It's just a question of whenyou're a kid, you've got the
spiral graphs with the compassesand the set squares.
It's just that what is an inchon the paper is a few feet in
the field.
It's that simple.
But in answer to your questionwe normally have.
One person will say well,here's a couple of images, which
do you like?
We can do this one this week,this one next week, one next

(19:09):
week.
But where it starts to getmessy is that um, sometimes the
imagery, um will put down acircle and then we'll find out
that it's of a particularsignificance to that particular
area or that particular field orthat particular day, and then
we'll find out that we've had noawareness of it.
And then that's what's freakingpeople out, because people said
look what?
Look, look at this image inthis field.
It's directly in a line withthis, it's direct and we've just

(19:29):
like, so I just plonked itthere.
And then afterwards there'ssignificances to the date, the
area, historically, somethinghappened five years ago which
we've, which we've commemoratedwithout knowing.
So it's stuff where we go,where we couldn't possibly have
known that, and then you startto think well, who had the idea?
Oh, jim had a dream.

(19:49):
Oh, okay, and that's when itstarts to open up.
Wow, and that's when, as I saidto Zach when we spoke a few
weeks ago, once you take UFOsout, once you take birth UFOs
out of it and messages fromspace brothers out of it, and

(20:10):
you actually insert humans intothe equation as just just you
know pawns, you know just footsoldiers.
Then the mystery becomes likemassive.
It's actually it's a thousandtimes more interesting than than
flying saucers landing, becausewe think that there is arguably
an interaction between eitherourselves telepathically talking
to each other, or whetherthere's something else which is

(20:31):
at play that we're sort ofignorant of.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
So, in other words, it kind of seems like people are
just autonomously choosing arandom design and then, once
it's done, there's a lot ofsynchronicities to the area,
sort of deal.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah and what's also really important is that, um,
I've been interviewing cropcircle makers for the past six
years and I I know a lot of them, because there's a myth that
we're all a close-knit community.
We're not, but over the yearsyou find out who's done what
over the years.
We're not a fraternity, it'snot a masonic brother, it's not
a masonic brotherhood there's no, there's no, there's no.

(21:07):
That's right.
It's not a, it's not a masonicbrotherhood or anything um, but
we do know each other and the.
And when I interview, uh,italian crop circle makers and
french crop circle makers andpeople that are um have made um
away from like this central hub,in wheelchair I get and I say
to them look, I'm, I'm, I'mreporting high strangers, events

(21:29):
, they all go, I've got anything, it's just here.
And people.
And the further I get from likethese monolithic sites, the the
stories dissipate.
You know they become fewer andand you know they become fewer.
It's just here, interestingyeah, yeah, wow absolutely.
Yeah, I think nine ninetypercent of the crop circles are

(21:51):
in, are in wheelchair, I think,is I think that historically
ninety percent, I'm pretty surethat's that's the cut, that's
the current figure I made herewow, yeah, interesting what?

Speaker 2 (22:01):
what do you think it is about that specific geography
that is creating the circlesthat at least have these strange
phenomenon or effectsafterwards?

Speaker 3 (22:10):
that's different from I've got to answer that
question, first of all by sayingthat the first time I drove
here to investigate, when I wasa believer, as soon as I drove
into Wiltshire and as soon as Idrove near Avery and Stonehenge
and like the real magic, I gotthis vibe.
I got the same vibe that I gotwhen I watched Close Encounters.
It was like I'm not here, I'mback.

(22:32):
There was this certain vibe inthe area where you think it's
all familiar and it's all likethis is all familiar.
And the first time I was in aclub circle, even though it was
incongruous and it looked likeit shouldn't be there, at the
same time it looked completelylike it should be there.
And when I was in there and Ihad a time slip in there, I

(22:52):
thought this all makes sense now.
I mean, I'm not endorsing it,but people say the same thing
when they take acid they go.
When they take their first acidthey go oh, okay, I'm back, it
makes sense.
But you know, but it's the same, I've never taken that, but um,
it's, it's.
It's kind of like that thingwhere you go okay, this all
makes sense.
Now I've got the answer.
And the answer is and then it'sjust flits away, it's just

(23:15):
beyond your grasp.
It's like you've kind of gotthe answer, but, um, we think
that the our forebears who madestone circles and you know the
big stuff, we think that theywere venerating or celebrating
something within the land whichwe've now forgotten because you
know, because we're all you know, the technocratic age has

(23:38):
kicked us out of this.
We think that our ancestorsknew far more than we do.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
And we think that we are just kind of like rebooting
their work in crop rather thanwith stones, and it's like jump
leads in the area.
As soon as you put these cropcircles and these images into
the land, they like sort of it'slike jump leads, they charge
the area again, you know, and um, because people have been

(24:08):
seeing uaps, ufos, all sorts ofweird shit, um in wheelchair for
thousands of years, but theydidn't call them uaps, they
called them nature spirits or orfairy lights or will of the
wisps and they'd say, oh youknow, away with the fairies is
the equivalent now the greyabduction, isn't it?

(24:29):
they're taken away for a coupleof days.
They come back different.
There's time shifts.
So if you speak to them, I'venever thought about those two
things together.
Yeah, if you speak to local thelocals here and the things I'll
be talking to you about if theywitness anything strange, it's
like everyday life.
I've watched farmers watch,watch weird stuff with me in the
daytime and they're like, yeah,whatever, this is our life,

(24:51):
it's, it's completely natural.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
It's completely natural to them I guess have you
thought more into that feelingthat you get like, oh I'm back.
Like have you thought aboutthat?
Do you think it's like pastlife?
Do you think it's just like youwere meant to do this like?
Have you thought like, have youlike a deeper thought of, like,
why you get that feeling?

Speaker 3 (25:08):
it's really interesting because I actually
wrote in my substance.
I've just written the story um,connected to a circle maker.
Give me an account and we didsay it feels like a past life,
but what we think?
But I don't think so.
I think that we areexperiencing, through the
collective consciousness, therecollections of our history, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
So I don't think it's literally me in a former
incarnation, I think it's acollective remembrance when you
talk about, you know, thisprevalent idea now where every
thought and every concept isactually on this cosmic Google
Drive and you can just bring itdown, you know.
But the area is reallyimportant and what's interesting

(25:54):
as well is my definition.
As I've got deeper and deeperand deeper into this and been a
crop circle maker and madedozens.
My definition now of a hostcrop circle is different to what
your definition would.
Be okay, because historically ahoax crop circle would be
anything made by people.
Okay, that's what, that's whatthe narrative is, that, that's

(26:15):
what the research is, that'swhat the community tell you.
Okay.
But my definition is a fakecrop circle is one that is made
for ego or, um, it's made tofool people, to laugh at people,
deceive people.
It's tramped down for a laugh,so so that people can talk about
it at dinner parties.

(26:35):
It could be art, which is fine,that's.
There's no problem with that atall.
It could be, um, a commissionedpiece for a commercial or a tv
ad, that's fine, they are all.
They're all hoaxed crop circles.
Okay.
A real crop circle is somethingwhich is done which which we

(26:56):
feel compelled to do, which isnormally done with spiritual
intent and and it's done withreverence and deference to the
area that we place it in.
And the first time that we wentout to do that one with the
magnesium flare, before westarted, the team leader did it,
did an incantation, and Ithought he was like having a
laugh with us.
But no, no, he says right, okay, before we go into the field,

(27:19):
we do it outside the field.
He says right, please protectus in our endeavors, please make
sure that we are safe, pleasemake sure that this crop circle
brings joy to those thatencounter it.
Afterwards, and I thought itwas like some sort of kooky
thing.
But that's that.
That's my definition of a realcrop circle.
It's one that's done normally,you're compelled to do it and

(27:40):
maybe you don't know why.
And, uh, you've got thespiritual.
And the other thing I forgot totell you, kyra, is that most of
the people that I know thatmake spiritual, real crop
circles.
We all have a latent interestin the paranormal and ufology
before we go in.
We've all grown up, we've allgrown up with this interest and

(28:02):
it seems to be.
People say, oh, oh, you know,are you saying that you're
channeled?
No, we're not saying.
We're not saying we'rechanneled.
We're not saying we're special,we're not anointed, we're not
the chosen ones, we're notbetter than you, but it just
seems to be that, as withufologists, who are more likely
to see a ufo if they'rebelievers it just seems to be

(28:22):
that the phenomena latches ontothose people that are aligned to
it, and we're the people thatgo out and make these true crop
circles that's.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
That's so cool okay so if you're not channeling
right and but you're having thisconnection with each other, um,
because this is interesting, I,I would.
I could see most people whowant to break the story on this
go the opposite way, go morethat ego or really lean into the
metaphysical, and you, youalmost kind of come with like
that sciencey, more skepticalmind.
What, what are you thinkingthat you're tapping into to be

(28:55):
able to have this synergy witheveryone?
Is it still that collectiveconsciousness, or or what would
you explain it as well?
This should.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
My next sentence should tell you that I'm not in
the same field as mostresearchers, and that is that
I'm not going to make up ananswer.
Okay, this is the only thingwhere I'm not clear.
People talk about, oh, it can'tbe man-made, because the stems
are bent, not broken.
You know, all that's happeningis that it's the daytime the

(29:28):
things are being cooked.
Now it's light.
You know, when you're making acrop circle, the crop's actually
quite moist, so it is reallyeasy to bend over.
Then the next day people say, oh, this can't be man-made because
it's.
Or they say, oh, this has gotto be man-made because it's.
Or they say, oh, this has gotto be man-made.
All the stalks are smashed.
Yeah, that's because there'sbeen 100 people in there before
you, you idiot, you know.

(29:48):
But it seems to be that peopletalk about the literal oh,
exploded, elongated nodes, whichis just a basic process called
phototropism, where once aliving stalk is is lodged in the
ground, its natural inclinationis to reach the sun.
Again, it's not mystical, it'snot it's.
It's not spooky, it's.

(30:09):
It's not evidence that it's notman-made, but everyone's
looking at these physical tracesto say, oh, it can't be a
man-made.
The stuff that you can't recordis the weird shit.
It's the synchronicities, it'sthe dream-based stuff.
You can't, you can't examinethat with a.
You can't examine that in thefield.
Uh, so we don't know if we areto, if we are connecting with

(30:31):
each other through thecollective, through the
collective consciousness, or ifthere is something else at play.
Like, look, you know, when johnkill talks about, john kill's
got this amazing ufology, he'sgot this amazing analogy that I
love.
He's really good with analogies.
He says imagine, imagine aradio, imagine an old radio dial
.
Okay, but you haven't got athin dial, you haven't got a

(30:53):
thin needle, you've got a reallywide needle.
So if you had a thin needle,you're just going to pick up
that station, you're going toget that, that lot music.
But imagine if you've got awider needle.
You're going to pick up voicesfrom other channels, just faint
voices from like newscasts.
You're going to think thatthat's like voices from the
spirit world.

(31:13):
If we look at it, you know, intoday's terms, we think that
there's a possibility that weare all that humans are using
the same frequencies and thesame radio dial as something
else.
Okay, so we don't know if wemake, if we go and make a crop
circle and then find out thatsomeone has already done it, you
know, the night before in thesame field or in the same

(31:37):
cluster of fields.
We don't know if it's thecollective consciousness and we
are unconsciously talking toeach other, or if we're being
driven by something else, andthat is the only part of the
mystery that I'm, to this day,not sure on, after two decades
research and being an expert byexperience.
That's the key.

(31:57):
You know because I've done it.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Okay.
So when you're saying sometimesyou show up, you know know two
different crews, same fields,going in like the same area,
have you ever compared designsand see if you guys both came up
with the same design for thesame place?
Oh yeah, it's happened that'swild like.
What are the chances?

Speaker 3 (32:14):
what you said, cara, about.
You know, is it weird at thetime yeah it's still in the same
time frame, it's in the sameway, but you get so blasé about
it because we used to fight witheach other and say, oh, you've
done my, you've done my, you'vedone my, you've done my bird
here, I was going to do that.
Where'd you get my do?
Did I leave my drawing in thepub, or something?
And then, and then you go no,of course not.

(32:36):
And then what what happens isyou'll get certain themes where,
over us, certain season,there'll be these recurring
patterns or just recurringshapes within formations, and
it's almost like the phenomenonis going like you know, okay,
well, if I implant it in four ofyour heads, one of you will do

(32:57):
it, or two.
It's like when you get major,when you get major um
technological advances, like youknow, when john logey baird
invented the telly, they saythat three other random people
in in unrelated parts of theworld had the same idea and and
and nearly put the patent in,you know, and then, when he did

(33:19):
it, they go how do you do it?
My idea?
it's like, if it's in, if it'sin enough heads, one of you will
do it I mean, that makes senseyeah, yeah, one of the I hate to
keep using this example for thepeople that have listened to
like a dozen of my my guestspots, but the one that really
does it for me is that, um, whenI went out to make my first

(33:40):
crop circle, but by myself, withmy own team, and it takes a
long time to do that because forthe first few you're just a
stomper- you don't know.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
you know You're a pawn.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the other thingwhere people, when researchers,
say, oh, you know, this is aman-made, or people can't do
this, you know, people can't dothis amazing, this amazing
pattern, my answer is, if youhaven haven't tried and if you
haven't actually been in thefield and tried yourself, I'm
not really going to give you anytime, any time really, because,

(34:11):
as a crop circle maker said tome, I install boilers for a
living, but if you can't takeone apart and put it together
again, I don't think I'm goingto take any advice from you.
You know, um, yeah, but um, forthe first six or seven, I was
like learning the ropes, andthis is really important.
I can't do those really reallycomplicated ones, but I can sure

(34:33):
tell you how they were done.
You know, when I, when I saw,when I, when I did my first crop
circle, I visited a new one thenext day and the scales had
fallen from my eyes and nolonger was I saying, oh, this
can't be people.
I was going.
Well, I can't do it, but I cansure tell you how it was done
because I saw it last night.
Okay, so I went out and I had ateam of four.

(34:53):
I had two guys from Amsterdamand a guy from from England, and
I had this recurring dream forweeks beforehand, where it was
an ubi.
It was definitely an ubi I was.
It was an out-of-bodyexperience.
I was swooping over thesefields and they were two fields
that I didn't recognize, butthey always the same two fields,
and there was one crop circlein one field and another crop

(35:16):
circle in in the field next toit, completely different.
And in my dreams I was alwaysflying next to this kid that I
went to school with like 30 or40 years ago, who I've not
thought of for four decades, andI'd wake up thinking, oh, it's
that cool dream again, by theway.
What the hell is that guy doingback in my dream?
I've got nothing to do with it.

(35:36):
And then one day strange, I was.
I was driving around,wheelchair, arranged to meet
some friends, and I took a wrongturn.
Now, wrong turn in this subjectis different to what it means
in most people's realities.
Things are in, things areengineered.
Um, you think it's a mistake.
It's not a mistake.
You make a crop circle, you puta mistake in it that you can't,

(35:59):
that you can't fix, so you haveto embellish the mistake and
then it turns out that mistakeis the most important part of
the crop circle.
It's all chess pieces and it'slike we say it's a game of chess
but we're not playing it withthe pieces.
There's the mistakes, there's,there's wrong turns, there's you
know, there's the car breaksdown, so you put it in that
field instead, and then yourealize that that's the field it

(36:21):
should have been in all thisstuff.
And so I took this wrong turnand I found myself in this part
of I did this gasp, thinkingthat's the two fields that, and
it's because it was down likethis cul-de-sac, it's not, it's
not a part of the scenery thatyou'd normally drive down, okay,
and I thought that's, that's,that's my dream.
And then I looked to my leftand the name of the road that

(36:44):
I'd driven down by mistakeinverted commas was the name of
the road that my school friendused to live in when I used to
go and play around his house 40years ago.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Oh, that's so strange yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
And then I thought, okay, okay.
So I phoned the teamimmediately and I phoned my
partner and I said, look, okay,I've got this is, this is where
we're doing it tonight.
But I haven't got time to doboth circles.
Okay, I've got one for eachfield in my dream.
Which should we do?
Team can understand which to do.
They said, well, they're boththe same sort of ability, wise,

(37:18):
they're the same, but one's notmore difficult than the next.
My partner didn't know and upuntil walking into the field I
was like still couldn't decide.
It was really like reallystressing me out and in the end
I thought, okay, what I'm gonnado, I'll look skywalker, I won't
think of anything.
Whatever goes down, the firsttwo stop marks will determine
what that's going to be.
So I got the circle down, fine,everything fine.

(37:40):
Next day I got a call from my,from my partner in london and
she said to me um, you were busylast night.
I said, yeah, I know, we got areally good one down.
We got my first crop circledown and she said, no, you
didn't.
I said, well, we did, becauseyou know I just got to sleep and
, uh, because, like it's notreally social hours, you don't
get up before 11 o'clock and shegoes.
But you got them both down?

(38:01):
I said no, we didn't.
And she said, go and look oncrop circle connector, all right
.
So I looked on crop circleconnector and the and the the
google earth coordinates.
The aerial view was my twofields, okay, and there was a
strip separating the two fieldsnow from the air.

(38:21):
That just looked like a hedgeor something, but it was
actually this massive hill, okay.
So my, my, my first crop circlewas down in in in my field.
My other crop circle was downin the other field but we
couldn't see because they werethe barrier of this hill and we
didn't know about that team andthey didn't know about us.
And that's when I thought, okay, there's something going on.

(38:48):
And the thing with the chessthing this is another really
weird one.
This is because, being askeptic you know my wife's a
skeptic, she's like my anchor.
When I get too far into thisstuff, she goes no, it's not
that, it's just that's not that.
You've got to have somebody topull you back.
Yeah, absolutely you must.
It's so important becauseotherwise you see people just
vanishing into ufology and theyjust vanish into it and they

(39:08):
don't come back.
You know you need an anchor.
But we had this situation wherethere was, I think, eight or ten
of us and we arranged to meetin the pub at eight o'clock.
Now, arranged to meet in thepub at eight o'clock, now that
doesn't mean to say we getpissed, you know, because
there's there's this trope ofthe two drunk blokes walking
over from the pub.
We've been played by that tropefor the past 40 years, cause

(39:31):
some of those early crop circleswere attributed to two old guys
.
So we got to the pub, we said,well, we'll have a pint.
We don't start until about weget to the field for 10, because
at that time of year it startsto get dark.
10 and we're out by three.
So you got five hours, you know.
And people say in, the peoplesay the researchers say, but
these are formed in seconds.

(39:52):
Really, are we there?
You know they're not, they'redone over five hours.
They're done over five hours.
So we were, we met at eight, wewere all experienced makers and
we we intended to do a um, acrop circle which was a
celebration of mother earth,which was venerating the area,
this.
That's why the ones where wedid know that it was significant

(40:13):
, it was on purpose.
Okay, that was.
It was a conscious thing had tobe that image, had to be in
that field because of thesurrounding history and area.
Um, and date, the date wasreally important on that one.
Um, so this, we're all in thepub and, uh, we're all just
ready to go.
Okay, we'll have another pintand we're off.
And then one of our team got atext and he went oh shit, I've

(40:34):
just forgotten.
I was supposed to go out withwith b's team tonight.
I forgot.
And so then we were one downand his mate goes do you know
what shit I'm supposed to be onthat team as well?
I completely forgot.
He asked me last week.
Oh, my god, I've seen the, I'veseen the design.
It's going to be reallycomplicated that they need every
pair of hands they've got, sowe're down, so we're down by two

(40:55):
, okay.
And then somebody says well,actually I've got the phone
number of, like this tourist,and he tourist and I think he
knows we're circle makers andhe's gagging to come out, give
him a call.
So he was there within like 20minutes because he was on
holiday.
And then somebody else said youknow what?
I think it's going to rain.
I haven't got a dark overcoat,I've only got a light overcoat,

(41:19):
and we can't wear light clothesbecause they're a beacon.
So I'm wanting attention.
I've only got a light overcoatand we can't wear light clothes
because they're a beacon.
So I'm wanted attention.
I'm going home.
So we're another person down.
And then someone says someonegets called away on a family
matter.
Oh the boilers, I've got aflood at home, I've got to go.
And then the team leader saysyou know what?
There's not enough experienceon this team.
Call the whole thing off, I'moff, goes, and then.

(41:39):
And then like but but slowly,people are being replaced in the
team, like this chess game.
So if somebody will walk intothe pub and you go, oh god, I
work with you.
You're the guys from holland.
Could you help us out.
We really need your help.
And then somebody phones up.
This literally happened.
Oh, somebody phoned up and theygo oh, are you supposed to be
in birmingham now?
I'm down for the night.

(41:59):
Get your ass in.
We need you, right, we need younow, okay.
And then, oh my gosh.
The end of the day cut a longstory short.
The eight people in that teamwere completely different people
to the people that it wassupposed to be an hour ago.
We didn't know each other, soit was really awkward in the car
those car rides are always theworst, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
So so we're on the way to theformat.

(42:20):
We're on the way to do theformation.
We don't know each other.
All of us, we're all strangersto each other in one form or
another.
And so it was really awkward.
And this guy just like passedaround a stick of gum and he
broke the ice because everyonewas really quiet.
And he said you know what, ifmy mum knew what I was doing
tonight, she'd be absolutely sopleased, because she's a

(42:44):
spiritualist and she's reallyinto this stuff.
And I said, well, you know,just bring her down, you know,
you know she can see what you'vedone.
And he went um, I can't, shepassed away last year oh and
then it was like this chill inthe car and then it was like
Spartacus and I said my mumpassed away last year.
And then someone else, my mumpassed away last year, my mum

(43:07):
passed away last year, whoa, andwe got, and then we realized we
were making a circle connectedto mother earth.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
I have goosebumps, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
No, my hair's sitting straight up, yeah and then we
went, and, and then, and then wewent, and then we went to make
it.
It was an absolute blindingcrop circle.
It was absolutely magnificent.
Oh wow, those are the twoevents.
You can't measure that stuff ina field, okay, but that's where
I think the phenomena really is.

(43:35):
Okay, and it was personal to us.
It doesn't mean anything to thewider world.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Right.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
But sometimes you get crop circles and they're
supposed to be of significanceto one single person.
It's not there for the, formillions of people to get a
meaning.
You know, and we're into thiswhole religion thing of like one
is all, all is one, everythingflows.
It's just like what Cole Youngtalks about and Jacques Vallée
talks about one is all.
So sometimes you get a cropcircle which is only relevant to

(44:03):
like one person and it'sextremely special to them.
And I know I had a Canadianjournalist friend and he come
over and he said at the end ofhis trip he'd rented a cottage
in Marlborough and his partnersaid to him what would you like
is the biggest present you canhave before you before we go
home?
And he said I'd love this cropcircle in my back garden.

(44:24):
Okay, and it was a specificdesign and the next day it was
there.
Okay, but what really fried mybrain about that one is that I
found out later that the teamhad actually had that design in
mind and and that field planneda week before that trip was made
yeah, that's wild and that'swhen you think is there some

(44:46):
sort of time delineation here?
is there something?

Speaker 2 (44:50):
yeah which doesn't, because because the phenomenon
doesn't, perhaps doesn'trecognize our laws and our
physics I think that's one ofthe things karen and I talk
about a lot, especially whenwe're talking about, like
haunted locations.
Right, is that time issomething that really makes
sense to us as living humanbeings?
But I don't think it's.
You know, time is just thislinear line that you can't go
back and forth on and that someof these other creatures,

(45:12):
whether it's ghosts ormulti-dimensional beings or what
we call ufos or anything,they're able to kind of surpass
the, the laws, or the, thecreation of time that we've
placed on ourselves yeah, that'sinteresting because, um, I took
some footage once of like, uh,of a of a ufo over a crop circle
, and what was really weird wasthat this particular crop circle

(45:33):
um, I'd already seen it, like,sort of like I've driven past it
.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
This is when this was , when I was a believer.
I found out later that it wasthat the magnesium flare block,
because what happens is that itwas the Magnesium Flare bloke.
What happens is that it's likeBanksy, we've all got our own
signatures.
So you can look at a cropcircle and you think, okay, well
, I know 100% who made that,because his speciality is
feathering and spikes andcrescents, and I know who made
that.
Or, if you see a bad version,you go okay, well, that's either

(46:00):
that's like really drunk, or orthe people that he trained his
little sort of minions have goneout and formed their own teams
and they're just copying hisstuff.
They're not quite good enoughyet.
So, anyway, I drove past thiscrop circle and something
impelled me to, um, get out andtake a foot, some footage of it,
and I already had loads ofpictures of this.
So I took a set, a seven secondvideo, and in that seconds, in

(46:23):
that seven second video was auap and so I thought what made
me get out of the car?
Oh right, but the point wasthat when it, when it moved, it
moved as um.
When kenneth arnold said, youknow, when kenneth arnold said
in the matt ranier sighting, hesaid it moved like a saucer
would if you skipped it overwater.

(46:44):
And that's how this thing moved.
It didn't like flying astraight line, it was jerking.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah, and it's like it pulls the next bit of time
towards it.
It's really hard to explain,but see, I think it's really
interesting that we had thefirst UFO sighting in 1947, two
years after Hiroshima.
Kenneth Arnold reportedcrescent-shaped craft.
They weren't flying saucers,they were crescent-shaped craft.

(47:10):
It's very, very clear in theliterature.
But he said it moved as asaucer would if you skip it over
water.
Why did we start seeing flyingsaucers when it wasn't flying
saucers?
It was like we interpret itthat way, you know yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
So if we're gonna say we went on a major crop circle,
right, yeah, what do you?
Is it just because I know youkind of said that it sometimes
it's just for one singularperson?

Speaker 3 (47:35):
to see that message.
Yeah, yeah, design, yeah itrelate to them.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
So do we think that crop circles just like ignite
energy or ignite like what doyou think that they're doing to
draw these things to it?
Like, I know you kind oftouched on it but is, I guess,
like do you have a simple?

Speaker 3 (47:53):
answer.
The first thing to say is thatif someone has a magical
experience in a crop circle,okay, unfortunately, their
paradigms will then restrictthem from admitting that there's
a possibility that it could beman-made.
It seems to be that if theyhave a really personal
experience or something reallymagical happens, they can't

(48:15):
reconcile it.
It's like they're in denial,okay, that it could, because I
had that experience.
It it must be.
It must be non-man-made, okay,but we're saying that it's still
the second thing that you putpeople in.
They're still magic.
Because this is the otherelements that I can't explain.
But the answer is carer, it'sto do with the land, okay, and

(48:36):
we believe that.
Um, as I said to a podcaster twoweeks ago, when people talk
about Stonehenge and theimpossibility of that task, okay
, that we've shifted thosestones from Wales you know the
hundreds of tons no one says themost obvious thing why?
Why would you dedicate twogenerations of your life?

(48:59):
So the grandfather starts itknowing that his grandchildren
are going to it, knowing thathe'll never, knowing that his
grandchildren are going tofinish it, he'll never see.
Why dedicate your life tosomething you're not going to
see?
It seems to me there'ssomething very, very important
in this area and, don't forget,people are seeing uaps in this
area without crop circles.
I know people.

(49:19):
I know people that are sopissed off with the politics and
the infighting that they go.
I've had enough of them.
I'm just going there to see theuaps, okay, and they do night
watches.
But the answer to your questionis we think that we are
basically, uh, we're just um,following on the the work of our
forebears obviously not asimportant because we're not
carrying rocks, but it's thesame tradition and we are.

(49:45):
As I said to Zach, before youcame on air, it's almost as if
the crop circles and the stonecircles before us are like jump
leads and they're activatingsomething within the earth.
Okay, and that's what we'redoing.
They're just exacerbatingsomething which is already there
and the implantation of astrong image just charges the

(50:10):
earth.
And, don't forget, this is thestrongest concentration of lay
lies in europe, if not the world.
Okay, I know I was talking to apagan last week and we had a
brilliant chat with this podcastand he said that it's the
importance of what our ancestorsthought of this land cannot be
overemphasized.
It's probably the most importantpart of the chemical.

(50:31):
You know, the chemical solutionthat's.
It's like it's alchemy it hasto be here, it has to be that,
it has to be that or it doesn'tfit together.
And the reason, a reason whyI'm not on on camera today, is
because they stay activated foras long as that circle is not
authored.
And if I mistakenly connectmyself to a circle today, you

(50:52):
know, it's not about ego, it'snot about me.
We think that as long as theyremain unauthored, they retain
their potency.
That's the word that's beenused is potency.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
It's almost like at that point then they belong to
the earth.
It doesn't belong to this teamor that team.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
Well, that is one of our mantras, though, Zach.
We say that's our mantra.
For as long as we're in thatfield, it's ours.
The second we leave that field,it's not ours anymore.
It belongs to the world.
That's so cool.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
You've mentioned, I think what We've mentioned
multidimensional.
We've mentioned fairy, kind ofmentioned this earth energy or
something that the ancestorsknew.
With your time, literally inthe field, have you kind of come
to any personal conclusion ofwhat you think the phenomenon is
created by, or what are yourthoughts?

Speaker 3 (51:38):
We had that really nice chat a few weeks ago where
I did an audition to be on yourshow, didn't we?
And I know that we're alignedhere In that I have studied the
UFO problem and I do call it aproblem.
I've studied this since I was akid.
I've studied this since about1985, okay, and I actually think

(51:59):
that was a really glorious timeto be in ufology because it was
before the internet.
We had no armchair experts.
All we had guys.
Do you remember?
It was lovely, I'm older thanyou but all we had was the
literature.
We'd have Flying Saucer Reviewcome out once every month.
That was our Bible.
We'd have the Mufon Reports.
We'd have the Bufura Reports.
We'd have, like these reallygood, this good core, this core

(52:26):
group of writers like JacquesVeil, who's the godfather as far
as I'm concerned, and we had,like Jenny Randenny, randall's,
john kill, his, his conceptswere fantastic, so, but they all
went from nuts and bolts craft.
They went from, you know, theold adamski spaceships.
They all end up going down thisroad, the serious, the serious

(52:48):
researchers, where they say,well, there's an interaction at
play, isn't there?
Why do people see ufos?
If they're aligned?
Why are they more likely to seeufos, why?
Why do people get that?
The owl dreams?
But when it's all connectedwith dreams, synchronicities,
and again what I said to youabout hiroshima, we think that,

(53:09):
um, we are dealing withsomething which masquerades
itself as ET.
Okay, and Jack Valle talks aboutcultural tracking.
So in the 1800s we saw crashedairships and we saw airships in
the sky before airships were athing and then we invented them.
Okay, so it just seems to be.
Why don't we see contactees orthese Nordic long-haired sort of

(53:34):
visitors anymore?
Why is it?
You know, it's like trends andfashions, it's following where
we are.
So, whereas we now see UAPs,the ancestors in Wiltshire, they
saw fairy lights, okay.
So I believe, after decades ofresearch, that this is an

(53:55):
interdimensional phenomenon.
I don't think it's ct, I think.
I think that it's somethingwhich is coexisting with us on a
plane that we can't see becausethe needle's too narrow on the,
on the radio spectrum, and thatmakes sense.
And I don't think it's acoincidence that this all
started in 1947 when what we didto the planet okay, must have,

(54:20):
must have had ripple effects tosomething else coexisting with
us.
And I think that it masqueradesthis way in order for us to
think it's ct, but it's tryingto like keep us in line.
But I think it's the samephenomenon with the crop circles
.
Okay, it's something that'sunseen.
I love what jay allen hynek said.
He said if we, if the uf pro,if the ufo answer was given to

(54:43):
us tomorrow in a pamphlet and itwas like a guidebook, we are
not in the right place in ourevolution where we'd understand
it.
Okay, it's like nope it.
It would be like showing a flatpack ikea instruction manual to
a caveman.
It doesn't mean.
It doesn't mean anything.
Hynek and vae are thegodfathers of the subject.

(55:05):
So my answer to your questionis it's not et.
I think it's something which iscoexisting with us and I get
the same sort of vibes in thefields with this, because
sometimes we're in the fields,you feel you're being watched
and I know that would just giveme the heebie-jeebies you do.
I know crop circle makers.
Something strange doesn'thappen every time.

(55:26):
I'm not going to glorify it.
You might get a strange event40% to 50% of the time.
The rest is okay and sometimesyou'll think, oh, nothing weird
happened there.
Oh, okay, we'll put that onedown to experience.
And then you look behind youand there's like orbs in like a
figure eight formation, like ascale extract.
These orbs are like auditingwhat you've done, as if they're

(55:49):
sort of a compliance team, youknow, and if it wasn't for you
turning around, you'd havethought, okay, nothing weird
happened then.
But then you go, what made meturn around?
A voice made me turn around.
You know so and that it's thereall the time.
But I think this stuff is herein everyday life, you know, you
get that.
You get you get a dream of yousee somebody in the street and

(56:12):
they look like somebody that youwent to school with, and then
you think, oh, it's not them,it's not them.
And then you see them an hourlater.
You know.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
It's Mothman stuff, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Yeah, no, it is wild.
I mean, kiel says it best,right, it's kind of like the
flap phenomenon, where there'sso much that I think, at least
in pop culture, is seen as okay,that's ufo, that's cryptic,
that's this, that's that, whereit's all happening together.
These things have to be morerelated than I think the
research is.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
Yeah, you're right it's because they want it.
Black and white, ufology andcrop circles.
It is not a black and white,it's the gray.
Pardon the pun.
It's the gray where the fun is.
Yeah, it's the.
It's the gray where the it isnot a black and white phenomenon
.
We're not ready to see it, it'sthe gray.
That's where the real stuff is,you know, wow.

(57:01):
Of the 40 or 50% where you'rehaving the strange experiences,
what would be either one of themost profound or weirdest that
you've experienced, that youjust you know what's that one
that sticks with you, as I said,you, you get to see uips as a
matter of course when you'remaking them, and I know of a
pilot, um, who's had to, who'shad to remain anonymous,

(57:22):
unfortunately, because you knowthat's not, that's normally how
you know.
People say that that's how youdon't verify stuff.
I hate stuff where you can't.
Where it's an eyewitnesstestimony or a trusted official,
yeah, means you're making it up, doesn't it?
But, um, but this particularcase I know this is a genuine
case where this um, becauseobviously we've got a high
concentration of military basesin this area.

(57:43):
I don't think that's acoincidence.
Okay, I think that the militaryare probably tapping into the
same thing that our forebearswould happen into every time you
see a phantom, a magical area,there's always a bloody military
base next to it down here.
Okay, yep, oh, they know yeah,yeah, so he saw this, this pilot
saw uh, so they can see whatwe're doing.

(58:03):
So we know that they can see usin the fields.
And I know one pilot.
He said he said I saw.
He said I saw these, these halfa dozen people climbing a gate.
I thought, oh, youamps, I knowwhat you're doing.
But then he saw this lightappear above them which was only
available to see on his radar.
It wasn't visible in the sky,okay, but we see UAPs all the

(58:26):
time as a matter of course.
But I think the answer to yourquestion is I hate to be boring,
but it's the stuff that wecan't measure.
It's the sinks in the dreams,the stuff that I can't say to
you go and measure that in afield the next day, okay.
But we've had.
I know people see figures.
They do see strange stuff.
I try and keep away from thedark stuff because I've had like

(58:47):
poltergeist activity at homewhen I've spoken about it too
much at home, when I've spokenabout it too much and I don't
like to bring that stuff into mylife.
You know what I said to youbefore, zach, about Robert
Williams.
I love Skinwalker.
I don't want to share a bedwith it.
But there have been a couple ofinstances that I can't explain,
and it's not related tosynchronicity or dreams or the
psyche.

(59:07):
We had a situation where Ireally started to think then
okay, there is something goingon.
Here was when we made a cropcircle.
There was four of us and it wasonly supposed to be a social
event.
We were mates, we'd made like adozen the previous year and we
said like let's meet up nextseason, we'll have a meal.
Let's just put something downafterwards, just as like a

(59:27):
little testament to when we weredoing them.
That's all.
It was a little thing.
It would be like a little endof our meal, sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Just a little dessert little crop.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Yeah, it was a social event, it was exactly that.
So gluten-free.
And yeah, it wasn't wheat-freebecause we were in the wheat,
right, I was just going to saythat.
But you do it so anyway.
So we said, let's just do thislittle thing.
And one of the team Muppet thatshe was she got the tape the

(59:59):
wrong way around, so we weremeasuring in meters rather than
feet, so it was three timeslarger than it should have been.
It took us about an hour towork out that we'd seriously
messed this thing up.
But normally you can modify,because the beauty is for us is
that you, the audience, don'tknow what it's supposed to be in

(01:00:19):
the first place.
So it so we can modify.
But there was enough of it downwhere we were in the shit.
We could not modify because themain lines were down, okay, and
we thought, okay, we're in theshit now.
And the thing was the cardinalrule is you never leave a circle
finished in view of the road.
When we did that two-stageevent, you know it was in the

(01:00:40):
middle of nowhere, so it didn'tmatter, okay.
But if, if you leave itunfinished, like with the
scaffolding up in the middle ofand it's visible for a road.
That's a big no-no, becausebecause a paradox we've got is
that, um, we've got, we've gotto make them look as if they're
not man-made, because if theylook man-made, the magic's not
there.
That's the paradox,unfortunately, yeah, yeah, and I

(01:01:03):
said to you before you knowthat there's 10 to a man-made,
you don't go.
So, anyway, we were in the shitand it was like two o'clock or
something, where we only hadanother hour before day, before
daylight was going to break andwe lost the cloak of night and I
said we've got to do something.
We've got, we can't modify.
What the hell are we going todo?
And one of the teams said well,I wouldn't give for more time.

(01:01:25):
And we carried on.
And I'm not kidding guys, and Ican verify this, because one my
other team is a non-believerand even she says I can't
explain it.
We did another hour's worth ofwork.
We were sweating, we werethinking listen, make it look
finished, just do what we can.
Just do what we can so we gotanother hour's worth of work
done.
And then then we got anotherhour's worth of work done and it

(01:01:46):
was still dark and like we'rethinking we're gonna get this
done, and I to M I nearly said aname then what time is it?
He said it's five past two.
I said it's fucking impossible,mate.
So we'd got like it was.
So we got two, I think we got.
In the end it was two and ahalf hours worth of work done
and it was like 10 minutes andI'd buy our watches.

(01:02:14):
And what's funny about it is inthe time we were doing it.
This is what really bores mybrain.
Why didn't we look at what weweren't looking at our watches
at that time, you know?
And also, as somebody pointedout to me recently, up until
that point where somebody saidwhat I wouldn't give for more
time, the road was busy, therewas lots of traffic.
After that, nobody, none of us,can remember seeing a vehicle
for that two and a half hours.

(01:02:35):
And then we got it done.
So it's just the mathematics ofthat which makes it testament
to the fact that it must havebeen something other.
And then what I forgot to tellyou was when we started that
formation, we had a pink UAPappear on the first stump mark
and it went on the last stumpmark.

(01:02:55):
It went, just disappeared.
And when we got to the end ofthe field because the second you
get to the end of the field,even if the police turn up, they
can't tie you to the circle.
Even if you're right at the endof it and your car's there,
they can't tie you to it.
You can say, oh, it was thereanyway, it was cars there, they

(01:03:19):
can't tie you to it.
You can say, oh, it was thereanyway, it was there last night,
okay.
But we got to the end of thisfield and when day came, I can
only explain it as being likeit'd been if you can imagine, a
dam with pressure on it, okay,and then the dam is released.
It wasn't like this slow,beautiful, natural transition in
today.
It was like it was like day,you know, and I I told this
story to a crop circle maker onfriday and, um, he said we had
it.
He said we had the same thing.

(01:03:40):
He said what happened to us iswe said what we wouldn't do for
more time, to paraphrase and hesaid it had already got light.
And the second one of us saidthat because of this their
circle wasn't finished either,because they'd bitten off all
they could, more than they couldchew.
The second one of us said thatbecause their circle wasn't
finished either because they'dbitten off more than they could
chew.
The second one of us said oh,come on, it got dark again.
He said you saw it go darkagain.
That is wild.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Yeah, you weren't finished.
It needed to be done.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
So what happens is it was really nice of me going out
to see the circle makers onFriday because I hadn't seen
them for years.
And what's really nice is thatyou say have you got any
accounts for me, for my substack or for my book?
And you can't use them becauseyou've already got them, because
you've already been told thesame story by five other, by
five other circle makers.
You know, wow the thing is,because it's um, these are very

(01:04:28):
personal, like that thing withthe, with the mother crop circle
.
Um, you think, well, that'spersonal to me.
When I first started getting thedream, the dream based stuff
and the synchronicity stuff, Ithink, well, that's personal to
me.
So it's really nice to bevindicated and get the same
accounts from other circlemakers and you go, it's not just
me, we're all getting, or atleast those of us that are

(01:04:49):
making real spiritual cropcircles.
We, we're all getting this, youknow, because you speak to
other people that do them forart and you do them for other
people.
They do it for other reasons.
They're nice, guys.
I've got no reports, nothing Ican use.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
And that's one of our big things too is when we talk
about the magic and the worldand this, and that the, the
intent you put out there andinto it totally changes your
reality and what you experience.
So that's interesting, thatit's not just the act of
creating the circle, it's alsothe intent and the thought
process behind it it's the sameas with ufology, because I had a
really nice um.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
I had a really nice hour with um, the european ufos
uh podcast, a few weeks ago andhe said that it's even the same
with people that don't create.
He says people that um go outon cultivated uap watches, you
know, and they say, like nightwatches, they get the same thing
.
It's just a very act of thembeing in the mix, you know, and

(01:05:44):
becoming and showing thatthey're interested.
That exacerbates the experience, you know it fascinating.
So that's where we are and, likeI said, I am getting blowback,
but not very much, because Itend to avoid the forums that
suffer from confirmation bias.
Somebody said to me recently doyou do research into Facebook

(01:06:06):
groups?
What's the point that's just acrapshoot.
It's confirmation bias and ifyou say there's a human element,
you have.
I've had people accuse me ofbeing CIA FBI.
I'm a government mole.
You know they don't want tohear it, okay.
So all the blowback that I'vehad has been from those tiny
minorities, but other than thatI've had nothing so far.

(01:06:30):
You know, because this is theelement of the phenomenon that
doesn't sell books because theresearch community won't tell
you it's humans.
I mean, most of them know.
You know you're not going to go40 years researching the
subject.
But the trouble is, whathappens is they go so far down
the line and they've got thisflock of disciples.
If they turn and say you, youknow, it's magic, but it's

(01:06:53):
humans, they're going to losetheir income streams, aren't
they?
It's, but it's just as soon asyou put us in and you realize
that we don't think we'respecial, we're not.
As soon as you put us in, thephenomena might not, it might
not be the mystery that you want, but it's a bigger mystery than
you thought was there Iactually think this takes crop
circles in a whole way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
That is like way more interesting to me than it is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
You know messages by ufos.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Yeah, I agree, it is, it is yeah, but like you've
said multiple times here, right,it's a lot of people don't come
forward and say it's personallymade, because then you're going
to lose people.
So d you've been doing a lot ofshows, you're, you're reaching
out and you're really gettingthe word out there like what,
what's driving your calling nowto kind of blow the lid on this
and really bring it to theforefront yeah, that a lot, of,

(01:07:42):
a lot of other makers are askingme this.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
I started doing this in 2018, but I started to get
that shit that I spoke to youabout before, that I don't like
at home, you know.
It was like I was getting badluck I was getting.
I was, I was, I wasco-authoring with somebody else
and after six weeks, he said I'mgetting stuff happening at home
, I'm, I'm out, you know.
So I carried on myself and Igot really stuff, really old

(01:08:06):
stuff, and then I stopped doingit.
Um, but I revisited it lastyear because the crop circle
phenomenon, as we're sittinghere today, is pretty much dead,
in that we had our worst seasonever.
Last year.
I think there was eight.
Only two were worth looking at,whereas when I was doing it,
there was like 60 to 80.

(01:08:27):
So it seems to me the answer toyour question is with
everything else that's beingdisclosed.
It seems to me the answer toyour question is, and you know,
with everything else that'sbeing disclosed.
It seemed to be the season forit and I just got the vibe that
it was safe.
Now I could be wrong, becauseyou can't second guess this
phenomenon.
It could be that there could be80 this year.
Okay, but it's looking likeit's looking like it's winding
down.
But it's almost as if we'vespoken to this between ourselves

(01:08:51):
a lot the makers and what wesaid was because of the
infighting and the politics andthe follow the money and all the
it's like it's given up, youknow, and people are now seeing.
We're seeing the spiralsinstead.
We're seeing other stuffinstead.
So that's why I'm doing it now.
I just got this vibe to do it,my own planets aligned.
Last year I finished anotherproject and I thought what can I

(01:09:19):
do next?

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
and then I just opened my google drive and found
my manuscript from six yearsago just appeared there, you
know, and I thought okay, that'sit, that's exactly what I did,
carol.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Okay, it's time you do you get blasé about it.
In the end you don't secondguess it, you just don't.
You don't see that's weird,you're going okay because,
because you've been through it ahundred times, in the end you
don't second guess it, you justdon't.
You don't say that's weird, youjust go okay because, because
you've been through it a hundredtimes in the fields and what's
happening?
When I'm writing this, I'mhaving random stuff happen to me
.
I'm getting the same randomstuff than what I had in the
fields.
So it's like it's the samething, you know, meeting random

(01:09:47):
people getting random stories.
It's, you know, it's the samestuff is happening to me writing
this than I had 10 years agowhen I was making Kind of those
things that seem random, butthere might be more to it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Hey, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
As I said, I think this happens in everyday life.
It's the fact that we'reconnecting it to its something,
because we're connecting theseseemingly random events to, you
know, ufology and crop circles.
I think we're just exaggerating.
I think it's all there.
Anyway, I reckon you could,next week, make a list of things
that were strange that happenedthe previous week, and they

(01:10:20):
probably weren't.
They were probably about it'dbe about the same amount of
weird stuff than you normallyget If you were looking at the,
you know, consciously looking atthe weird stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
You know, Zach, and I talk about that a lot yeah, the
more, the more you start tolook for it, the more it all
just pops out right, right, yeah, because it's easy to just
disregard all those littlethings.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
But yeah, like you said, if you were to write them
down and look back in a weekyou'd be like, oh, that actually
was way weirder quote-unquotethan I thought.
But yeah, we talk about thatall the time synchronicities and
the magic in the world thatpeople just ignore because, like
you said, people want black andwhite.
It just is not that simple.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
I don't know what's going on with the Mandela effect
either, but it's like there's acertain shift in the air, isn't
there?

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Absolutely yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
I went to Crop Circle Country last week and it was
more exaggerated.
There there's a sense oftheater to the whole thing.
It's like it's like it's yeah,it's like it's a set.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
it's really hard to explain there just seems to be
something going on with the waythe world is kind of digesting
now the uap phenomenon, thattype name, and if you, oh, I
love that I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
I love it, I said.
But I love it because, likewhen I, when I was like in my
teens, like just you know,researching this stuff, all of
my friends are going.
You're just in, what are you?
You're an idiot, you know.
But now I've got those samefriends.
They're going.
Is there something to?

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
this right now.
You're the expert.
Now I'm not the idiot and yeah,yeah, yeah, and you're going.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
I'm 40 years in, you wouldn't understand, but there's
more acceptance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely,but there's more of an
acceptance where they go.
You know we used to laugh atyou, not laughing.
Yeah, there's something to it.
I had a strange situationbecause with the phenomenon it's

(01:12:10):
like it's not something thatyou can really mess with.
And I've got a great storyabout a circle maker and he was
quite evangelical about it.
Like we said before, if youhaven't got someone to pin you
down and anchor you, you candisappear into it and become
obsessed with it.
And he had a situation wherepeople didn't know he was a
circle maker, but they knew thathe was obsessed and he was at
work one morning in this areaand his work I won't area and

(01:12:33):
his work I won't say work mates,because they weren't, they were
just acquaintances.
They said oh m, one of your bigcorn drawings has landed in
this field and it's behind thisbarn in such and such a location
.
And he went oh okay, well, um,I'll go after work and I went,
no, no no, you gotta go now, gonow.
And his boss said, no, you cango now.
Okay, it's a bit weird.

(01:12:53):
So, um, he went to this exactlywhere they said it would be,
behind this barn, great east.
It was brand new, no one hadbeen in it, because that that's
the thing it's.
They're like crime scenes, notnot just literally, but in that
the longer you leave it, youknow if you, if you go in the
first cafe house, it's pure.
You've had right there's.
There's been like hundreds oftourists, having been breaking

(01:13:15):
all the stalks, you know, anddoing all the stuff where you
think I must be man-made.
Um, so it's clean, it'spristine, it's beautiful.
And he went back to work andthey come running after and they
go, was it?
Was it a productive morning?
Yeah, yeah.
And he had one of those um oldcameras where you see the
pictures on the screen.
You know this is, this is inthe 90s, 2000s, and he's passing
around this um screen.

(01:13:35):
He said, yeah, it's exactlywhere you said it would be, it's
really nice.
Exactly where you said.
And they just went all quietand he said it was like, as they
passed the camera around, hesaid it was like watching a
miserable version of adults passthe parcel.
It's just they were all, really, and it turned out that the
reason why they said it had tobe seen there, we had to leave
work there and then, was becausethey knew, yeah, that with a

(01:13:56):
couple of well-placed phonecalls to the research community
and to other crop circle makers,they would have told him that
there was no circle.
So their prank backfired in themost magnificent way.
Crazy, because they were sayingyou've got to go now, because
they thought, well, if he leavesit we'll just wind him up and

(01:14:17):
of course he goes back and thecrop circle was exactly where
they said it would be.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
That's hilarious, that's incredible.
I would have paid to see thelook on their faces when that
just backfires on them.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
Well, the phenomenon does have a sense of humor.
It does.
And I've got one more for you,and this is a corrupt circle
maker who lived in Gloucester.
I love this one, and he had thesame vibe about Wiltshire that
I did.
You know, this is the firsttime we got there.
It's like I'm home, I'm back.
There's something in the airhere.
This is our ancestors'collective consciousness.

(01:14:50):
And he was in Gloucester and hegot.
He got a calling, a pull at onein the morning.
You must go to Wiltshire.
Then he went yeah, I'll go inthe morning.
No, it's like no.
No, he said, it's like, youknow, when your cat wants to be
fed, he doesn't care what time,it is okay, that's so true
though, you'll go, you'll go.
So he went down, got toWiltshire about 90 minutes later

(01:15:12):
.
So he got there there abouthalf past two in the morning and
he had this little hidey holethat he used to sleep in in his
UV.
It was like a private littleplace he used to go to and sleep
.
So he had his Bluetooth on andthe Bluetooth when he got to his
favourite road it said turnaround when possible.
And he thought, because he hadthe Bluetooth on, that there was

(01:15:33):
a blockage or a flood or a treefalling or something.
So it said he went to thisdestination.
He turned around and it saidyou have reached your
destination.
And he went no, bloody haven't.
And it was like this byway,just like this nowhere,
nondescript place.
So he set off again and he saidI'll go around the other side
of the road now, just just incase there's a blockage I can

(01:15:53):
miss it.
Starts his journey, turn aroundwhere possible, make a U-turn,
goes back you have reached yourdestination, reprogrammed the
thing, turned it off,recalibrated it, took him back
to this area, took him back tothis same spot six times and in
the end he said look, geez, it's3 o'clock in the morning.
Now I've had enough of Maccad.
He just turned the thing off.
He said I'll take a chance.

(01:16:13):
He went to his normal place.
Nothing was wrong, no blockage,slept fine, no problem.
8 o'clock the next morning.
So he's only had five hourssleep.
His mobile phone is rattlingoff the dashboard.
With the Intel there's a newcrop circle, obviously you can

(01:16:35):
guess the rest.
So he went to this.
But yeah, and he said he saidthat if he'd have got out of the
car it was pigeon steps intothe field.
Okay, and it was a man-madeformation.
And what we thought was reallyfunny was that a potentially
non-human intelligence, throughtechnology, was guiding him to a
definite solution where he'dfind out that they were man-made

(01:16:57):
it was.
It was like that little paradoxof like an nhi guiding him to
finding out for sure that cropcircles were made by people.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
it's just like that sense of human thing again see
that to me that's a so much moreinteresting phenomenon than it
just being made by aliens fromother planets.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
I'm going to be honest.
When I first started readingthe email from you, dee, I'm
like no, what do you mean?
It's all people, and then youknow it.
Really, I think has put a waymore interesting spin on this
and the way you think aboutthings.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Yeah, I know that we have to wrap up.
We could probably stay here forhours.
I do just have like onequestion, because you were kind
of saying that you feel likeit's maybe like ancestry or like
you know.
You got to finish off like whatour ancestors started right.
Have you looked into any oflike your ancestry, like, have
you found anything like?

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
no, no, because I know, because, firstly, we're
not finishing it off, we'reextending it.
Okay, that's a big one.
Secondly, it's not to do withmy personal family tree, because
I'll say again, we're notanointed, it's not us, it's just
.
I've got an alignment with that, with that subject, and you
attract it.
But that makes sense.

(01:18:09):
If you were to say to me, if welook from a collective ancestry
, that's a different thing.
I don't think it's theindividual which is important
here, okay, I think it's the,the um, it's the area not
connected to.
The only thing that I've gotgoing for me is that I'm aligned
to it and I've got this latentinterest in the paranormal and
that's the sort of thing thatthe, the recruitment drive, you

(01:18:33):
know kind of latches onto it'snot about the person, it's just
about we're just.
If you're up that point of view,we're just tools, that's all we
are yeah, yeah wow.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
So what advice would you give to somebody who's
either wanting to get involvedin researching crap circles or
wants to become a makerthemselves?
Like, talk to the, the peoplebrand new into the interests out
there.
What do you have to tell themfirst?

Speaker 3 (01:18:56):
thing I do is just do not look at the traditional
research community.
They've got a vested interestin in pulling in telling you
that human is not involved.
If you want to find out aboutthe mechanics, about that, the,
the community says, oh you, ahuman maker would, would bend,
would break, not bend, and therewouldn't be these expulsion

(01:19:18):
cavities.
My advice to you is don't lookat confirmation bias sites.
Look at go to the skepticalinquirer, okay, and look at
blown those debunked.
Look at scientific papers, thatthe scientific papers that have
been rejected.
People say it's documented.
Okay, I'm going to write downnow and say that Elvis eats
pizza on the moon.

(01:19:38):
That's a document, that'sdocumented.
It means nothing, okay.
The thing is these untruths havebeen repeated and spun for so
many decades that they're noteven questioned anymore.
It's all.
You can rip it apart in 30seconds.
You know if you're a botanistor you've got I've got a friend

(01:20:00):
who's a scientist and he wasactually one of the people that
the BLT consulted when they weretalking about looking at
variations in crop.
You know, in man-made circlesand non-man-made circles, the
guy wouldn't do blind testingeven.
Okay, my friend was subject toa gagging order.
He couldn't talk about it.

(01:20:20):
He couldn't talk about it for10 years.
But now he's saying it's allbunkum and I can prove it.
Yes, it has been.
It's been scientificallyresearched, but it was, but it
was rejected by all of them.
Okay, so my advice is look atdebunking sites and if you
really want to know what's goingon, I would recommend that you

(01:20:42):
read John Kill literature andJacques Vallée literature, and
that is going to tie you in withthis much more than anything
else.
And look at my Substack as well.
Which is it?

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
it can't be people dot sub stack dot com and that
that will be down in the shownotes.
We'll make sure.
Thanks, mate.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
Yeah, every week I publish a new account or I
publish an interview.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
Wow, all right, uh, okay, I I have just one and I
hope it's not a super long uhquestion, but I just have to
know this from a total you knownot the paranormal side of
things, but have you ever had togo on the run after making a
circle like?

Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
have you ever been?

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
chased out of a field or we did?

Speaker 3 (01:21:22):
we did a crop circle and we were just about to get
the first and it was going to belike a stealth bomber.
That's the really weird thingwe were going we were making
this stealth shape and we werejust about to get the first line
down and a military helicopterlanded in the circle.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
Oh no, Nope, I'm out of there.

Speaker 3 (01:21:40):
And we said, how did?
It was like hovering, it wasjust about to land.
We thought chup chup, chup chup.
I thought, oh, it's great, it'sanother pink UAP.
I'm going to get a downloadfrom Philip Craig Dick.
And then I heard the rotors and, um, my friend said hey.
My friend said they must haveseen the from the engine, from

(01:22:02):
their, from their um camera.
And we were.
We ran out so quickly that Ithink we left the boards there
and had to collect the kit thenext day.

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 (01:22:12):
Wow Okay, what a close call.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
Running from the military.
I thought maybe the cops orsomething like that Cops, yeah,
nope, nope.

Speaker 1 (01:22:18):
That's kind of badass .

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
Wow, all right, dee.
Yeah, no, we could sit here andlisten to your stories for
literal hours.
This stuff is so up our alley.
Unfortunately, with it being anearly recording, we still have
to go to work today oh yeah,sorry guys all right, well we'll
, we'll survive.
At least we started the daywith some like perfect weirdness

(01:22:41):
here yeah, I love this that'sfantastic.

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
Thank you so much, guys, and obviously when this
goes up, I'll I'll send sometraffic back to you, okay, thank
you fantastic and then we'llmake sure, like you, we'll link
the sub stack.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
Is there anything you want to share with anyone else
on how to find you, or any lastwords you want to leave them
with?

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
No, it's all there and it's free to subscribe.
I don't want any money.
You can just.
It's just that sub stack,that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
Awesome.
So we usually ask our listenerswhat emoji to leave after
listening to the episode.
So what emoji would you sayfits this conversation for you?
Oh, I was thinking there's alittle wheat emoji, like a piece
of wheat.
I was thinking that, but Idon't know if you have an emoji
that's your favorite.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
I'd probably put a sun.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Okay, Love it.
I like that Happy Everybodyleave a sun.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
That's how we know people make it to the end if
they leave us the sun.
We know, we know.
All right, I think with that wecan start getting this uh
oddity shop closed up for theday.
Carol, you want to take it away?

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
we got work to do so.
Thank you so much.
I hope you love and appreciatethis conversation and hopefully
we can have you back and getmore insight, because we could
be here forever absolutely rightbut with that, we love and
appreciate you all and the mostimportant thing you can do for
us is to creeper reel yourlittle oddballs.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Goodbye, bye.
You got to throw a bye in there, dean, bye, thank you, perfect.
Thank you, the.

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Oddball Guests: Citizen D - Crop Circles, It Can't Be People?!

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Oddball Guests: Citizen D - Crop Circles, It Can't Be People?!