Oddball Guests: Sam Baltrusis on Ghost Writers and Paranormal Monsters

Welcome to a Very Special Episode of The Oddity Shop! In The Shop This Week, Sam Baltrusis stops by to talk about his books, relationship to Lizzie Borden, Men in hats, and so much more!

The conversation with Sam Baltrusis begins with an unexpected spectral scream—just seconds before our recording starts—setting the perfect tone for an exploration into the world of a man who walks confidently between realms. As a journalist, author of 18 paranormal books, and psychic medium, Sam brings a unique combination of investigative rigor and psychic sensitivity to his work.

The discussion takes fascinating turns through America's most haunted locations, from the elemental energies to the stone tape theory explaining why certain buildings retain spiritual energies. Sam's upcoming 19th book explores haunted castles of New England, examining these architectural vessels of paranormal activity.

Perhaps most riveting is Sam's revelation about his genealogical connection to Lizzie Borden, forever changing his perspective on the infamous case. Rather than viewing her as a cold-blooded killer, Sam now serves as her advocate, believing she's been misrepresented by historical narratives controlled by those with agendas. through a more compassionate lens.

Sam's experiences offer a compelling glimpse into what happens when we dare to communicate with what lies beyond our understanding. Join us for this unforgettable journey through hauntings, history, and the healing power of truth.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I want to dance with the mothman At the ID shop,
baked in the moonlight At the IDshop.
Creep through the graveyard Tothe ID shop.
The door's always open at theOddity Shop.

(00:29):
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to the Oddity Shop, the place where the bazaar is
always on sale, and we're hereto tell you creepy, odd, odd and
weird and bizarre stories fromaround the world.
As always, I am sitting herewith the lovely curator, kara.

(00:50):
Kara, how are you doing today?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'm doing fabulous.
How are you?

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Oh, not too bad.
Not too bad actually Good,Pretty excited.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I was going to say we're going to keep this intro a
little bit short, because todaywe actually have a very special
guest with us, someone who hasspent years uncovering the
haunted history behind some ofthe most infamous locations in
America.
He's a journalist, an author, aparanormal researcher and a
lecturer whose work has beenfeatured on the Travel Channel
Discovery Plus.
You've written over, I think,18 books, including the Ghost of

(01:20):
Salem.
I actually have a book righthere of yours I've got one on my
shelf too.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Welcome in Sam Baltrusisusis.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Right, I said that right right, yeah, you said it
right, hey, sam.
So we're so excited to have youin the shop today.
Man, how, how are you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm doing well.
Yeah, I, when I, before I cameon, I heard you guys heard a
spectral scream, so and so I'mdoing okay.
But I'm kind of like what'slike?
I wonder if, like what, mydistant cousin, lizzie borden,
is visiting us okay, this isreally funny, so literally jump
right on in oh yeah, we're goingright into it.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
So me and kara are in the recording studio where
we're waiting for sam to joinand literally about 10 seconds
before you join, I looked atcare.
I'm like, is that kids likescreaming in your neighborhood
or mine?
Well, I went to pull off myheadphone, couldn't hear
anything.
Kara wasn't hearing it.
And then sam jumped in and he'slike we're literally trying to
figure out where the screaming'scoming from.
And you said this is somethingthat's happened before yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
So when I was filming , curse lizzie borden, with dave
schrader and chris fleming, um,so the producers asked me the
the question that everyone wantsto know Lizzie, did you kill
your father and stepmother?
And so I'm doing an EVP.
I'm like Lizzie, did you killyour father and stepmother?
And I heard like a reallyanguished screaming, like stop
asking me that question, stopasking me that question.

(02:38):
And I promised, you know, Itold her.
After that I'm like you knowwhat, I'm never going to ask
that question again.
And I I feel like with, with I,when I hear that scream, it's
more like oh my gosh, you'regonna like talk about me again,
like talk about the murdersagain.
So I I do feel, you know thatit does kind of follow me and uh
, and I do want, I want thescreaming to stop, if you will

(03:02):
well, I I don't blame you.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
It was a little jarring on our end, although
nothing too out of the norm, Ithink, for me and Kara at this
point.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
But yeah, but that's so, that's wild.
I mean, I guess that's how shegets your attention, I don't she
needs to figure out a differentway.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Exactly Well.
Thank you for joining us,Lizzie.
We won't ask you about themurders.
We promise, Promise.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Promise.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
She's very happy right now she's she's kind of
she's got her new england uh,kind of scornful look.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, she does kind of have that look for those who
can't see, he's holding up apicture of her.
So you know we're.
We're so glad you're here,though, uh, bringing your
spectral screaming and relativesand all.
But you know, for those whomight not know, do you want to
tell us a little bit aboutyourself?

Speaker 3 (03:45):
sure?
So my name is sam is SamBaltrusis.
You got the name right, whichis great.
So I've written 18 paranormalthemed books.
I've also done a lot oftelevision.
People know me for Curse of theZeeborg, but I've done a lot of
other programs like A Haunting,and I was also a producer on
season 11 of A Haunting.
Terrifying places, fright club,paranormal night shift list

(04:06):
goes on and on.
But I think for me, the stuffthat I'm most passionate about
is definitely my writing and mybooks.
And, uh, the book that I'mknown for the most probably is
ghost to salem and um I'vewritten we're actually currently
working on book number 19,which is is Haunted Castles of
New England, and that's been somuch fun working on that.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
That's a lot of books .

Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's fun, I love it, I love it.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
This might be just a totally ignorant question, but
do we actually have like fullcastles, or what are the castles
of?

Speaker 3 (04:36):
It's actually.
That's a really good, that'sactually a really pertinent
question.
So yeah, American castlesversus the castles you find in
Europe are definitely there's nocomparison and there's a lot of
comparing and contrasting, Alot of the and people have said
this to me in my interviews thatthe castles in America are kind
of like movie sets.
You know they're almost likethey're kind of like copycats of

(04:59):
what's found overseas.
But I will say there's a lot innew england especially that are
haunted.
And so once hammock castle ingloucester and I spent
halloween's past halloween thereand it was so much fun and, yes
, it was built in the late 1800sand it doesn't have the history
that a lot of the castles likethe lancaster castle over you
know, in england, or chillingham, all the ones that we know, but

(05:24):
I do.
I find it really fun to look atit and also look at the idea
why would a castle be hauntedversus another location like a?
haunted mansion, and a lot of ithas to do with what it's made
out of.
It's made out of granitelimestone and that does retain
the paranormal activity.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Isn't that the stone tape theory?

Speaker 3 (05:44):
It is.
Yeah, so it's a stone tapetheory, and I do and that's kind
of like the big question Like,does that materials used to
build these castles and I'musing hand quotes, air quotes,
yeah, but castles are, you know,and this is a really good look
into the stone tape theory thatenergy is absorbed into the

(06:04):
stones or into the walls.
In this case, it's usuallyrocks that are used to build the
castles, the american castlesthat's so cool.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
I I haven't actually heard of stone tape theory.
Oh, you haven't.
Yeah, do you want?
You guys want to give me likethe 30 second rundown?
I mean that's kind of it.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's just the theory that, like certain materials
hold that energy, and is it um?
Correct me if I'm wrong?
Is it a loop that they thinkit's playing?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
it's almost like a residual haunting, so like the
spectral scream that you heard,like that could be considered a
residual haunting, so somethingtriggers it and it's absorbed
into like a rock, or into thefoundation or into the land and
something triggers it.
Usually I'm a notorious triggerfor that stuff, so it'll set it

(06:48):
off.
Something will set off thehaunting.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's cool.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
I have goosebumps.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
So I feel like you're always so busy If anybody
doesn't follow you on socialmedia, or if they do, you're
always all over the place doingso many different things.
And now you're writing your19th book and I read somewhere
that you you used to or do youstill do newspaper editing,
because I don't know how youhave time if you do.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah well, no, no, I used to.
So for 20 years I was ajournalist and yeah, so that,
like that, was my precursor towhat I currently do now is
writing books.
So I would.
I was editor of two localmagazines at the time and I
wrote an article for StuffMagazine, which is a magazine in
the Boston area that's nolonger and that turned into my

(07:34):
first book, ghost of Boston.
So I would always write theparanormal themed articles, and
this is back in, I think, 2012,or 2011, 2012, that I wrote that
first article.
That turned into a three bookdeal, and so it kind of
transitioned from a printjournalist to an editor, to full
time paranormal.
I also work the overnight shiftat hotels and that's that's

(07:58):
sort of my primary job, and Itry my best to work at haunted
hotels because really does.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
I was just going to ask.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
I kind of double-dip.
I like doing the research andthen working the overnight shift
, which is slower usually, and Ican have time to think about my
books, sometimes write it, butdon't quote me on that because
my boss would be like you'rewriting books while you're
working, but I do kind of doboth and it really works out

(08:27):
well.
Yes, I'm super busy, but I love, I love it.
I love every minute of it.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
When you were starting as the, the journalist
was the paranormal always there.
Did you fall into it?
How did you kind of make thatswitch into the paranormal?

Speaker 3 (08:40):
That's a really good question Because, like for me, I
was terrified.
For most of my career as ajournalist I did use so I
identify as a clairvoyant, andas a clairvoyant that's sort of
like an umbrella term, but it'ssomeone that's highly intuitive
and sensitive and I've alwayshad those gifts.
And clairvoyant specificallysees, so I'll get mind pictures.

(09:02):
Sometimes I'll visually seethings like playing charades and
the spirit will try to tell mewhat they're trying to convey.
So this is something that Iused as a journalist and I kind
of kept it in the closet, if youwill.
And when I started writingparanormal themed books, I
didn't want to lose mycredibility as a journalist
because that was my full-timegig.

(09:24):
I mean, I was working steadilywriting articles, and then my
secret kind of came out hey, I'mactually using my abilities to,
you know, focus on.
I did a lot of investigativestories and that actually worked
well as a clairvoyant because Iwas able to kind of like look
at the case with a paranormallens.
Like look at the case with witha paranormal lens.

(09:48):
So, yeah, it was.
It transitioned pretty quicklyLike I started off.
I still, I was still writingbooks and I was an editor of a
Mac, two magazines that I endedup like what's happened in the
print industry.
Unfortunately there's not a lotof work, so yeah, the writing
the books has kind of become myprimary gig.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
When did you kind of tap into your abilities?
Have you always had them, orlike, when did you figure that
out?

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, so it's.
I started off as a kid.
I grew up I actually grew up inFlorida.
My dad was in the Navy and we I, my, my, my granddaddy would
visit me when I was around likeeight years old seven to eight
years old and I would haveconversations with him and my
mother who's Southern and I'mlike I'm talking to granddaddy

(10:31):
and my grandfather had passedwhen I was a little, a few years
before that, and it turns outwhen I, the room that I was
staying at my granddaddy's housewas actually his room and I
didn't know that as a kid.
And then it got progressivelydarker.
For me as a kid, like there wasa man wearing a hat with red
glowing eyes that kind of peekedin my window one night and my

(10:54):
sister was with me while we sawit and that's something I just
shut down.
Wow, I went most of my youngadult life still having
experiences, but just terrified.
Young adult life still havingexperiences, but just terrified.
And a big part of like who I amas an investigator is someone
that was, you know, just kind oflike Scooby Doo.
They would bring me to ahaunted location and I would be

(11:14):
like ah and like screaming andget me out of here.
And what happened is I found outthat that energy was like kind
of fueling the spirits and I, I,I actually wrote a book called
Fueled by Fear, where I talkabout that, like that energy
would make the darker entitiesrespond, almost gave them more

(11:35):
energy and I was food for this,for the entities I mean, I was
like I was giving them so much.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, sam, you and I are going to keep going,
but Zach just texted me that helost audio, so he's probably
gonna drop.
So if you, not a problem.
No, that's so funny, though,that you started out like the
Scooby Doo, like so scared, likethat's so funny.
And now here you are, justbopping all around all these
haunted locations and it's likeyour passion.
I was gonna ask you.
I now that we're kind of likeon this subject of it, like the

(12:02):
more paranormal part, I read, orI think I actually watched an
interview and I don't rememberwho it was, but you had an
attachment at one point.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, that was the episode of a haunting, so the
fact that that Zach lost his hisaudio is not surprising to me
because he's a slider, if youknow what that is, where he just
like messes up all technologyall the time, so this is a
normal thing for us we had axion, if you know who she is, and

(12:30):
she's a psychic medium, andbetween them two they broke all
of our equipment.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
We are so used to this.
That's why we're like we'lljust keep going I don't know
what it is.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
It's when we've had people with like this uh, some
sort of like clairvoyant or orpsychic medium abilities.
Yeah it triggers my, myelectronics, and I just don't
know what happened.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
So if I drop off, you guys can keep going and I'll
just pop in and out so what wewere kind of talking about, zach
, is that, um, I had watched aninterview that he, um sam has
actually had an attachment, so Iwas just asking about, oh, yeah
, and this is significantbecause so like when you blocked
out.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
So the the man with the hat, with the red glowing
eyes yeah every time I talkabout him something happens like
my computer freezes.
I wasn't when you, when you,kind of dropped off zach, like
that was right, when I wastalking about the entity that
feeds off the energy and usuallymesses up my computers.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Oh, wow Well there you go.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, you're in good company.
I know how that goes.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Do you think that that's your attachment?

Speaker 3 (13:29):
So, yeah, so the attachment has kind of been a
long like, kind of like what isit kind of thing?
Yeah, the whole backstory 2016.
And this is what like gettingback to like I was so tours, I
would do like I had writtenbooks at this point.
So I was considered an experton Salem and I loved Salem and I

(13:51):
would give tours duringHalloween season and just loved,
was passionate about it.
But what was happening isthings were happening on my
tours and there was one locationthat I feel like that I picked
up an attachment, and this isRichard Crown and Shield.
Richard Crown and Shieldmurdered Captain Joseph White in

(14:11):
the 1800s, 1830.
Okay, and.
I would talk about Richard Crownand Shield, and I did a pretty
much the night before Halloweenin 2016.
I did kind of like a it wasn'teven a lecture, it was more like
a performance where I was kindof dressed up as Richard Crown
and Shield and kind of playedthis role of him and what

(14:33):
happening was.
What was happening is I wasstarted to channel him and I
didn't know.
I had that ability at thatpoint, so I started.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
What a time to find out, yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
So I basically I channeled Richard Cronenschild
and I remember doing theperformance and going like, oh
my God, and I was getting mindpictures of the murder and he
was telling me that he didn'tact alone and he was innocent
and like all this stuff that Iwas getting.
And I remember looking in themirror and like going like my

(15:04):
face was distorted after givingthat performance and, um, my, my
partner at the time uh, was hewas like you, you look, like you
look fine, you're great, andand so, um, yeah, it just was an
eight-day ordeal of having thisentity that murdered somebody
and kind of like taken over andI was going in and out of

(15:25):
consciousness, um, this, yeah,this, became the um, the 100th
episode of a haunting.
And, um, what happened is myfriend joni mayhem noticed
something was wrong and you knowthere should have been a
telltale sign.
I was doing all sorts of things, like posting online, like
you're, like, like I, I wouldlike a.
Um, you know, anyone have a,have a human skeleton or like a

(15:46):
skeleton, and they're like, oh,I have a fake one and I'm like,
no, I want the real one, youknow, and so stuff like that,
and my friend joni noticedsomething was wrong and she's
like I think you have anattachment.
I'm like what's that, joni?
And that reenactment in the showwas hilarious because it was
all done on social.
We did it online, but theyreenacted it where she came to

(16:08):
my house and was like Sam, areyou okay?
And, long story short, she got ashaman who did a removal and
the removal did open me up, likeit like so at that point I saw
the entity leave my stomach, um,which was weird, and I came out
and then, looking back at it,was super emotional because it
was sort of like seeing likethere was a lot of spirit,

(16:31):
spirits like lined up tobasically take, take this entity
and bind him and wow, and I sawthis as a clairvoyant and it
was very powerful, life-changingand makes me grateful.
It makes me like the idea ofgoing into a location it doesn't
matter if it's a performance ornot like to go in and protect

(16:53):
yourself, cause I wasn't reallyprotecting myself and now I have
a.
I'm a hardcore believer inprotection and, especially now
that I know I can channel, Ihave to push it out and that's
the number one rule if you're atrans channeler is you have to
be able to.
If you take it in, you have topush it out.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
That's crazy.
That's so important on theprotection because, first of all
, I couldn't imagine seeing as aclairvoyant like what's
actually going on with theshaman, because you're seeing
more than most would in thatsituation.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
I can't even comprehend that.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
It was so fascinating .
That's wild.
It was fascinating.
But it was also like emotionalbecause my grandmother and I'm
going to start crying.
My grandmother was there and mygrandmother who super Catholic,
she was like with her rosaryshe would like like turn into
this like this fierce warrior,um spirit guide, you know, and
she was like like tackling thisguy.
It was so, it was beautiful,like I'm that's so cool, yeah

(17:45):
and I love it and I love that mygrandma, my, my nana, I call
her.
Uh, nana was there to protect me, that's so sweet.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
That's amazing.
You're gonna make me cry,grandma so.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
So what does that look like for you now, before
you're going into locations likewhat do you want to share, what
your protection looks like, orif it's something personal, you
know?

Speaker 3 (18:05):
it's a whole, it's a whole process.
But yeah, so I do.
I do what's called the crystalshield of protection and
apparently, um, when I I did iton curse lizzie borden, I did it
was the vagina symbol, uh, inamerica.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
So so kind of.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
I tinkered a little bit.
I don't do the vagina symbol,but so I do a crystal shield.
It's like a Reiki-based shieldthat I do, and I do crystal as
opposed to white light, becausecrystal allows the good spirits
in and keeps the bad ones out.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Oh, okay, so I do that.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
I have protection stones I have.
I use Palo Santo a lot.
I have protection stones I have.
I use Palo Santo a lot.
I use black salt and all sortsof things to make sure that I go
in.
I'm also big about closing.
So when you leave a location,even if you don't think you
picked anything up you couldhave, and I use my dominant hand

(18:53):
and I do like a chopping behindmy neck to make sure nothing's
kind of like trying to hold onto me or attached to me.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Oh, that's interesting.
I like that.
Yeah, that's cool.
Cut the cord yeah, wow.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
A lesson we learned early on as baby podcasters and
you know, kind of playing aroundwith some demonology things we
didn't know we were and we gotvery quick on the protection
stones after things startedmoving around.
Our spaces are being thrown atus.
Yeah, yeah, it's definitelyimportant, but I like that
physical cutting of it, likewiping behind your neck before
you go.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, that's cool.
I guess, aside from like doingthat and like cutting the cord
and things like that, are youable to like turn off your
sensitivity to spirits, like isit kind of like a switch on off
or not, really spirits Like, isit kind of like a switch on off
or not?

Speaker 3 (19:39):
really that's a good question Because, like for when
I first started like kind ofgoing doing locations, I didn't
know how to turn it on and off.
So I was kind of beingtormented by the spirits and I
was actually getting hijacked.
So I would walk in I was at theorphanage in Gettysburg and
walk in and this whimperingchild like basically took me
over and I was like you knowthat was like, and so I was

(19:59):
getting hijacked.
Now I try my best to setboundaries and I'm like I do.
I do imagine like kind of anold fashioned, fashioned lamp
where I turn it on, turn it off.
I've done like open, close Allthis is of course, a visualizing
in your third eye that you'returning on and off.
I also give them.
So I wear like a suit normallyand the suit to me lets them

(20:23):
know that I'm ready for business, you know.
And then the outfit that I wear.
I also use just it's more likethe like, the way that I'm
dressed that to let them knowthat, hey, I'm ready to
communicate with you yeah I'vedone like, um, like lemongrass
and like certain um, like thingsI put on my hands to kind of
let them know um that I'm readyto communicate.

(20:46):
So it is, I've gotten better atit.
Am I?
Have I perfected it?

Speaker 1 (20:50):
no, but yeah, I try I imagine so much of that has to
be trial and error, though it'snot like.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
There's like a guidebook for uh and it's always
like ever evolving too.
So it's like, even like whenpeople say that they're an
expert, it's like, can you evenbe an expert in paranormal?
Because it's nobody knows halfof what's actually going on,
which is the part that we love.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
But yeah, that's awesome yeah, I kind of learned
the hard way and I think gettingan attachment that nearly kills
you is like probably thehardest way possible.
But from that I did learn a lotabout protection, and I didn't.
That wasn't part of my arsenalback then and I, you know, now I
have a group of up and comingmediums that I work with called

(21:30):
Spirit Squad.
And we, and so that I, you know,I so I'm their mentor, and it's
a group of about 60 altogetherto kind of go in and out of
classes.
Oh wow, you know I, so I'm theirmentor and it's a group of
about 60 altogether to kind ofgo in and out of classes, and so
the spirit squad is really likeI learned with them.
So that's like the number onequestion how do you turn this
off?
Like, once we turn it on, howdo you turn it off?
And we're still learning, butwe're, we're getting there.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
That's so cool, though, because, like you know,
you've obviously had to learnsome of those lessons the hard
way, but then to be able toteach up to 60 other mediums how
to do it like that is such aimpactful way and you're saving
them from.
God only knows what you know.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
You know it's, it's, it's, so it's amazing and I,
having gone through what I wentthrough, I remember thinking I
really need a mentor, like Ireally need someone to help me
with this.
And the closest person that Iworked with her name's Joni
Mahan and she she's the one thatsaved me when I had the
attachment.
She also she's a fellow authoras well, so she did act as my,

(22:26):
as my mentor, but it wasliterally trial by error and and
I made so many mistakes and nowI can help my students kind of
walk through stuff that I'vealready been through and we just
did shadow work, which is kindof known for witches to do
shadow work, but we did it.
We kind of combined multipleface and shamanism and we looked

(22:51):
at just sort of like doing itand embracing your inner child,
and it was super beautiful.
And I loved working with SpiritSquad and I love going to
locations.
We're going to the SK PierceVictorian Mansion together and
going with a different approachto investigating.
It's not all about the bellsand whistles that we all know

(23:13):
from All the different ghosthunting devices.
We use our senses and we usedowsing rods and we use I do a
Samonts, which is sort of atweaked version of a seance I
love that the sam on?

Speaker 1 (23:26):
that's amazing.
Do you take on more that?
I know you have 60 right now,which is a lot, but if people
are interested, if there's, youknow, in case anybody is out
there.
They're a budding young medium.
Are you taking on more students?
So?

Speaker 3 (23:39):
I the way that spirit squad works.
It's sort of like taking onpeople that I connect with, so I
travel all over the countrylike I connected with you guys
in michigan and yeah likesomething kind of just like
pulls me to them and I'm like,hey, I have this group called
spirit squad, uh, and so it'sbeen kind of by attraction.
So I don't really promote it,but I do take on new students.

(24:01):
I have a whole segment comingup in July where it's a monthly
Zoom meeting that we're meetingand that's starting.
July 28th is the first day andit's going to be a monthly
session of Spirit Squad.
Normally we do five classes ina row and it's really intensive.
So I just want to kind of toneit down a little bit and just do
a monthly session of spiritsquad.
Normally we do, uh, fiveclasses in a row and it's really
intensive.
So I just want to kind of kindof tone it down a little bit and

(24:22):
just do a monthly.
So, yes, we're taking on newstudents, uh, and if you want to
sign up, you're definitely.
I would love to have have bothof you, really, oh that would be
fun.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Zach and I are very uh vibe people yes, so we
understand where you're comingfrom.
On that, I we have to, justbecause we just talked about it.
So we met you at uh michiganparacon in 23 yes, I think so.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, it was like two years ago.
Yeah, yes, and um, how, I don'tknow how it's already been two
years, but I don't know, isn'tthat crazy?

Speaker 2 (24:55):
but that was the funniest, if I don't know.
If you remember, like zach andI do, because it was just so
funny the way that we met you,zach, you well, we'll keep a pg
for the podcast, but there was acrystal that had gone missing.
That, uh, we all had a goodlaugh about actually told this
story when we did our recap ofmichigan paracon that year we

(25:20):
might have already outed you onthat one because it was so funny
.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
The best part is my mom was getting her palm read
two tables down from us and atone point the reader looked up
and because we're?
We're all dying laughing andwe're with her dad and goes do
you need me to tell those peopledown there to quiet down?
And she goes no, that's myfamily, they're just being
weirdos.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
She's like no, they're fine.
Oh my goodness, no, that was somuch fun.
And then Zach was like yeah, Ididn't even realize, Was it that
same day or the day before.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
You were like outside like smoking with him and
you're like, yeah, I just talkedto this really cool guy out
there.
We didn't even know who youwere.
I think that the same.
I think that was.
Yeah, I think it was the daybefore you presented, because
you were wearing your suit andwe had like a quick conversation
.
Then you come out on stage.
I'm like, oh my gosh, that'swho I was just chatting with
outside.
But that's the cool thing aboutparacon is there's so many

(26:14):
people yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
so I remember your shirt, zach like oh, I like this
shirt, and so like, littlethings like that attract me.
You know like I'm like oh, Ilike Zach's shirt.
And so we started talking andthen you're like I'm like I like
your shirt and you're like okay.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
That was early days of podcasting too.
Where I was, I was sointroverted still I'm like I
don't know how to have aconversation.
So thankfully with podcastingI've become a little bit more
extroverted.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
I can hold the conversation Well and, to be
fair, zach, you have had.
You had so many people that daycoming up to you and telling
you that you, like, they likedyour shirt and like we're just
not that used to that manypeople like that is.
It's a lot of people that areat these conventions and it is
like overwhelming at a certainpoint, like you love it like

(27:03):
you're meeting people, you'rehaving great conversations, it's
fun, but you're kind of likedrained at a certain point.
I can only imagine how you are,because zach and I are like, at
the end of the day, we are likemy battery is dead.
So I'm just trying to give yousome credit.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Oh, you're good.
That's a great point.
First of all, this is why Karadresses me, because I have no.
She bought me this shirt too,but with that, though, sam, is
that, how does it feel for youhaving the abilities that you
have?

Speaker 3 (27:33):
It's like an attachment swap.
You go in, that's why I keepgoing outside.
People are like, why are youalways outside?
Because I have to ground,because it's so, so much energy
around you.
And if you and that's a bigpart of spirit squad is, how do
you deal with those types ofsituations?
So what?
Like yeah, so when, when I saw,when I saw you, I'm like he's

(27:53):
dealing with the energy, likewhat it's it's.
It's pretty common with peoplethat are sensitive yeah you
can't deal with the energy andyou're trying to process it and
you're kind of like trying toprotect your energy and it's,
it's so.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
It's that's why, like the others, like people, like
like me, and like you guys, likehang outside just to get away
from all that energy and that'sso funny that you say that
because we go outside, almostlike every lecture we would be
done with, we'd go outside inbetween like halls, we'd go
outside and I usually like siton the ground, like I'll just be

(28:25):
, like, let me just touch thegrass, let me touch the ground,
let me just be here for a littlebit and then we can head back
in.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, you definitely feel it at those kind of
conventions.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, it's, it's you.
You know it's pretty muchgrounding.
Whatever you have to do toground uh, like like I recommend
it, like sitting on the grass,that's perfect, like that, like
stuff like that.
Um, I've, I've taken off myshoes, you know, like just you
gotta, you gotta just go outthere and get you know, kind of
bring it back and then kind ofgo back in and talk to the, to
the crowds.
But I'll tell you like theconversations I had outside were

(28:57):
like amazing.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
I loved it oh well, and it's.
It's so cool because, um, kindof like we were just talking
about before, like when you'relike you kind of wanted to keep
this part of you like kind of alittle bit quiet, like you
didn't want to talk about it.
But now, look at it, it's likecrazy.
It's like so many people lovethis stuff and they come to like
see you talk and they want tobe with other people that are

(29:20):
like weirdos or little oddballs,like we all kind of love it now
.
So it's just so much morewelcoming to be weird nowadays,
which has to be so great.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah, and I, I, I love the convention.
So I kind of kind of like alove hate thing.
I love that because of that,because I do feel so welcomed
and I feel like that I'm with mypeople.
But then also you go in andit's just like everyone's all
the energy is just like yeah,and you want to run out so that

(29:50):
year you talked about oh, I knewyou were going to ask about uh,
puck wedgie.
Your experience with puck wedgieuh, yeah, so the tell us yeah,
the lecture was monstersers ofthe Paranormal.
And at the time I did a lecturewith a demonologist and so we
discussed it.
So my idea of monsters were,you know, paranormal monsters.

(30:11):
So thoughtful manifestationsare things that we create.
As one of the monsters that Italked about, pukwudgies, which
is a pretty common littlecritter, um, in new england,
that's elemental in nature.
Uh, that that we've encountered, and even just you know, like
in um, chris and lizzie bordenwere out in the woods which was
the bridgewater triangle, and wehad all sorts of like elemental

(30:34):
energies surrounding us, uh,while we were filming that.
Uh, that you like I have.
So I have a lot of experiencewith elementals, especially, and
Pukwudgies.
You know like what are they?
They're Native Americancryptids, elementals.
They seem like that they'recute, but they're not.

(30:55):
Like they can literally lureyou to your death, you know so.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
I did an episode about them because I think
they're cute, but they're notlike.
They can literally lure you toyour death, you know.
So I did an episode about thembecause I think they are cute,
but they're like little shits.
And it's so funny because it'slike little cute things, like
you just said, luring you toyour death and I don't know why.
I just get a kick out of that.
It's not good, but but like.
So what was your experiencewith?
Did you see it or feel it, orhow do you like?

Speaker 3 (31:19):
So let's put it this way, I have students and friends
who have experienced them.
I haven't personally seen aPukwudgie.
So even in the lecture we had aphoto of one of my students her
name's Sue that captured aPukwudgie outside of the Oliver
House, which is a location thatI investigated a lot and that's

(31:39):
also on the edge of theBridgewater Triangle in
Massachusetts, and unfortunatelythat location recently closed
and now has turned into anoffice space.
But that land has a lot ofPukwudgie sightings and I think
we kind of see what we canhandle.
So I think some people may seePukwudgies and I may see, like

(32:00):
you know, something else, youknow as a clairvoyant so I do
and I think that they shapeshift, so they can kind of
appear to certain people andthen disappear.
But I but I have, I would say Ihave experienced the energy of a
Pukwudgie and so I do, I dobelieve they exist.
Just think that, like, if I, ifI saw one, I probably would

(32:21):
flip out, I probably I reallywould.
Oh, my god, um, I don't knowwho wouldn't, and other people
have seen them like, oh, they'relike, oh, you know, I saw a
puck wedgie and I'm like, reallylike I would, I would literally
have a nervous breakdown if Isaw a puck wedgie.
So I think that they know thatand they kind of like they, um
and I, we picked up evps of whatsounds like a puck wedgie.
So I think that they know thatand they kind of like they, um
and I, we picked up evps of whatsounds like a puck wedgie.

(32:42):
You know like what?

Speaker 1 (32:42):
it's kind of like a animalistic, primal, uh noise
that they make, and so I I knowthat I've experienced them, but
I just have not seen them sofunny still that you've probably
just made carol's entire daywith that one, because she is in
love with that I just thinkthat that's so funny, these
little, cute little shits.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
I don't know?

Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, they are.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
Little terrors.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
That shoot darts.
Well, some of them shoot darts.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yes, those little darts.
I don't know.
I get a kick out of this, Ireally do.
But seriously, if I saw one,I'd be like you.
I'd be screaming and probablyrunning, but the story of them
is cool to me.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
And really what they're doing is they're
protecting the land, and sothey've almost kind of been
given a bum rap.
Like they first started, theywere like helpers and they
helped the Native Americanspirits and protected the land,
and what happened is they weredemonized by settlers, like
coming into Massachusetts andthe other parts of new england,

(33:40):
and so now they're like littlelike the devils they've been
called and and truthfully Ithink that they're a little bit
of both.
They kind of can go both ways.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
I just don't mess with the puck wedgie, you know,
I kind of take it back.
I would probably be scared if Isaw one, but I would really
want it to just be my friend Ihave.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
So I have.
I have a friend who's whowanted a puck wedgie as a pet
and I don't know if a pet, ohgod, like she would have it and
I'm like, what is with you?
And she's like.
He's like oh, it's my puckwedgie, and I'm like, and she
like it's my friend and like,and she gave it a name and
everything but actually I.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
I wouldn't put it past me, though, either.
That's why zach's laughing,because he's like she probably
wouldn't want to fuck with acouple miller lights?

Speaker 1 (34:21):
yeah, you would take a puck, would you home as a pet?
I would.
So paranormal monsters that youhave experienced, is there one
that kind of stands out to youis like, uh, could be good,
could be bad, like a, just achanging experience for you?

Speaker 3 (34:35):
yeah, in the like in the lecture.
So I did.
I did talk about, uh so thoughtform manifestations in salem.
So the man with a hat is isconsidered almost like a monster
.
Uh, but I personally think thatmy experience with a man with a
hat with red, glowing eyes isum, is a family member and so
like it is more of a harbingerand that that um relationship

(34:57):
with him has kind of changedover the years.
But when I first saw him it wasterrifying and then yeah, so
like I'm like that one is a bigone for me is the is the man
with the hat and um and it's.
You can't say hat man becausehat man is trademarked.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
But you said that your sister was there when you
saw it.
Did she also see it?

Speaker 3 (35:19):
Yeah, am I freezing.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, but I can still hear you, we can.
Oh, oh,do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, oh,
ah, You're coming back.
You're like half back.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
All right, this is so .
I told you guys that.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's okay, we get it.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
It was right when we talked about the man with the
hat.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
again, though, Wait you're right, oh crap, let's
stop talking about it.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, it really does do that, is it?
Okay, it's not coming, hold on.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
I may have to get rid of my microphone and the other
thing too, as you don't shut offyour computer.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Okay, I'm going to try doing that, guys, and we'll
talk more about the man with thehat.
Perfect, I don't know if weshould.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Oh my God, that's wild.
That is you guys listeners.
That was instantaneous Bothtimes that we just talked about
that.
That's crazy.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, so, and typically okay, typically okay.
You know what my camerarecording it almost seems to.
Every time we have a guest dosomething wonky, but being that
that's the first time we've hadit happen to somebody else when
we're talking about the samesubject that interacts with his
well, and he said it was gonnahappen.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
Because it does happen and it happened again so
we shouldn't have, we shouldn'thave brought it up again oh gosh
, okay, it looks like sam'scoming back in you're back, I'm
back.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, so you're probably right.
Like every time I talk aboutthat entity, it does set
everything down, so I'm notsurprised all right.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
Well, I just wanted to know if your sister also saw
that she, she did.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, we talked about it later in life.
Yes, she did did, and we're notgoing to say the name.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
We can just see that we can move on from this subject
.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
He obviously does not want us talking about it.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
OK, it is my favorite thing that you are snorting,
because I snort when I laugh andI try so hard not to do it too
much on the podcast because,like I know you can because
you're a guest, but Zach has toedit all of my sniffles and my
annoying stuff.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
It's not the snorting while laughing, it is the
sniffling in every break of hersentence that I get to edit out.
But I love her anyway.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, ok, ok.
So enough about the monsters,let's, let's make sure the
technology still works, though.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Oh goodness.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
But, like, obviously you get to investigate a lot of
places and you've written abouta lot of them.
Is there one that's on yourbucket list that you haven't
gotten to yet or you know mightbe in the works?

Speaker 3 (37:46):
yeah, so.
So I always say queen mary andcalifornia because I I I have
visited it, but I haven't gonein uh as a paranormal
investigator.
I'm actually going to uh sanfrancisco, so I'm gonna this
coming up season, so I'm gonnago on the west coast and the
goal is to go to alcatraz andalso go to the queen mary, if I
can that would be awesome.

(38:07):
We want to go to the queen mary,oh yeah, so I can't wait to go
and the event is going to be onthe uss hornet oh, right outside
of san francisco, and um, justreally excited about that, and
then hopefully we'll make a trekdown to the queen mary, which
is about a four hour drive, butI think it would be worth it I
would say I think it's so worthit that'll be fun.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
What's your favorite place that you've gone so far?

Speaker 3 (38:31):
um, so I really love a place called broadhead manor
and, uh, and that's in wisconsinoh and I'm going back there for
the Paranormal Rockdown comingup this summer in July and
something about the energy there.
So you like Pukwudgies.
There's a lot of elementalenergy similar to Pukwudgies at
this property.
In addition to it was an oldschool.

(38:52):
So just the energy, the NativeAmerican backstory to the land.
Last time I was there we didsort of like a drumming circle
to honor the land and thespirits of the land and it was
so beautiful and we had in thedrumming circle there were
dragonflies that were kind ofcircling us in the field right
near where there was a NativeAmerican burial ground.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Oh, that's cool.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
So I just I love it.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
I can't wait to go back where in wisconsin is that
at it's?

Speaker 3 (39:21):
so it's, it's broadhead and it's right.
It's definitely more southern,so it's close to chicago.
My, my, um, my family is likemy brothers and are in chicago,
so it was I was able to see mylittle brother, joey, so oh,
that's cool.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I used to live in wisconsin for a little bit,
that's.
I was wondering like where?
I've never heard of that cool.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
We'll have to check out really small, like it's like
a really small town that Ithink that there may be like
population of like 100 or so,like it's really wow.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Oh, that's cool.
Those are the best though.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
So Paranormal Lockdown, is it like kind of a
smaller event locked in sort ofdeal, or is it a bigger?

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Oh, so it's Rockdown.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Oh Rockdown.
No, we probably heard it wrong.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah, paranormal Lockdown, and there's going to
be performances there this yearas well.
So the rock bands coupled withParanormal oh that's fun.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Oh, that sounds amazing.
Yeah, paranormal, oh thatsounds amazing yeah, you guys
should go.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
I would.
I would love that when,honestly, wisconsin's not too
far.
Yeah, so it's in july.
It's in july, okay, and it'sthe second weekend in july, so I
can send you guys informationoh yeah, do that.
That'd be fun, I think you bothwould really like it and it
would be a great great place forum like doing your podcast,
meeting new people yeah, forsure.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, no, we'll have to check that out.
That'll be fun.
Yeah, it's not far from us.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Especially now that Michigan Paracon is gone.
You know we're looking for anew home base.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Ay yi yi.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
I was going to say is there anything that you want to
share that we haven't talkedabout yet?

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Oh well, anything that Do you well, do you want to
talk about lizzie?

Speaker 3 (40:53):
yeah, I mean, of course we could talk about her,
so that the reason why I was alittle wary of talking about her
, I mean every time like it,like what happened at the very
beginning.
So when I do bring her up, um,as long as um, I honor her
spirit, I think that it's okayyou know, as long as I'm
respectful, um, I don't thinkI've ever like with her, like
when I first startedinvestigating, uh, the case uh,

(41:16):
this is years before filmingcurse of lizzie borden uh, with
dave schrader and chris fleming,um, but I would, I would.
Basically, I viewed her kind oflike with as a caricature, like
as a cold-blooded killer, andthat's before I found that I was
related to her and so, like,now that I know that we're
connected, my mom didgenealogical research While I

(41:36):
was writing one of, like,several of my books that were
related to the case.
She, she's like Sam, I thinkwe're related, and so she was
able to prove that we're relatedto Lizzie Borden, that's so
wild.
Turned my life upside down andI'm like you know what, now that
I know that she is a relative,I'm definitely more empathetic
toward her, almost where I'msuper protective and yeah so I,

(41:59):
um, really I want to tell herstory and tell her story
correctly, and I did promisethat to her.
Uh, and almost, if I can, if Icouldn't exonerate her, I would
love that.
I would love to be able toexonerate lizzie.
Lizzie liz beth was what.
The way she likes to be able toexonerate Lizzie Liz Beth was
the way she likes to be referredto.
People know her as Lizzie but Icall her Liz Beth.
If I'm having a conversationwith my distant cousin, I'm like

(42:24):
Liz Beth.
Liz Beth, she likes beingcalled Liz Beth.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Oh, good to know, because we don't want to upset
her and it's wild because, yeah,I can't imagine then finding
out that you're distantlyrelated to her.
That would be like, like yousaid, it would turn your life
upside down.
That's always been one of thosecases that I I've told Zach
this.
It's one of those cases.
I don't know why it like is sowell, it's very fascinating to a

(42:48):
lot of people, right?
So it was always beenfascinating to me because of,
like, the stupid nursery rhymes,the songs and whatever.
But it's just one of thoseweird cases.
And I love true crime, I lovelistening to it and hearing
about it, but I don't know whatit is with her case.
That is something's just likereally not set right with me.
Like it's just something whereI'm like there's just something

(43:09):
ain't right there, like I don'tknow what it is, I don't.
I don't even know how toarticulate what I'm saying, but
I've told Zach this.
Like it just feels like it'ssomething's not right, like the
story is not being told right,like I don't know.
Again, I don't know how toarticulate it, but it's just one
of those cases that it's likeit's very strange to me and I'm
sure you can relate.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
I can relate to it and so I have looked at this
case in every possible way.
So when I first started I wasscared I would have these
recurring dreams and I didn'tknow what they were and what
they were trying to tell me.
And a lot of times spiritcommunication came through my
dreams early on as a clear point.

(43:48):
So I had this dream, arecurring dream, where I'm in
the house, the murder house.
I see Andrew Borden on thecouch, kind of lounging over.
I see what I guess would beLizzie Borden, like standing
behind him holding an axe.
And I remember seeing thewallpaper.
The wallpaper to me was supersignificant because I kept

(44:09):
focusing on the wallpaper andthen it was black and white and
there was a man behind her,almost like a puppet master,
with nefarious looking, with ahat, with like, with a, like a,
with a mustache, and there wassubtitles that that were kind of
going on while the action wasunfolding and it said diablo did
it, diablo did it and Diablodid it.

(44:31):
And I would wake up like thatand to me that was a code of
some sort.
And Was she under the influenceof a spirit or like an
attachment, and having had anattachment myself, that is

(45:01):
possible.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
And so I came in with a different perspective, if you
will.
And there's also the idea thatmaybe there was some sort of
assault that made her snap andthat would make sense like a
disassociated snap.
But I will say, havinginvestigated the case over and
over again, there's almost likea splinter personality of Lizzie

(45:26):
and I call her Crazy Lizziethat I pick up at the murder
house.
So when I'm interacting withLizzie and I'm kind of doing air
quotes, again, um, it's, it'scrazy lizzie.
It's a different, like thevoice when I hear is that she's
crazy, she's crazy, um, and Ihear, hear that in my ear while
I'm in the house and it turnsout like that actually is what?

(45:48):
Um, during um the show, one ofthe shows that Amy Allen she was
in the house and I didn't seethis until years later, but she
had a very similar impression ofthat entity that's in the house
.
That's assuming Lizzie'sidentity, but it crawls in the
vents.
It's really creepy.
But yeah, I do feel that in thedream either it was an entity

(46:20):
that took her over and she wasinvolved, or there was maybe a
John Morris who was her uncle,has been someone that's been
accused of being sort of likethe puppet master, if you will.
Yeah, and he was creepy.
I mean even pictures and justknowing his backstory.
There was something wasn'tright with him, something weird.
Yeah, he was a little off, buthe had an alibi that was creepy.
I mean like even pictures andjust knowing his backstory there
was something wasn't right withhim, something weird.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah, he was a little off.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
But he had an alibi that was solid, Like he was
walking to another familymember's home the day of the
murder, the morning of themurder, and so he had a really
firm alibi.
But his alibi was like creepily, like he knew everybody he
talked to along the way and thatwas weird.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
It was too calculated .
Yeah, creepily like he kneweverybody he talked to along the
way and that it was calculatedyeah okay on the john moore
subject, though.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
So when I was looking into it, everything said that
he was going to buy ox, but Inever heard anything about him
bringing home ox.
Or is that just like awikipedia effect?
That was completely wrong yeah,I think.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Oh, so I mean from my research, he was visiting a
fellow like a family member.
Um, okay, and he, he did, he wasa butcher and so like that's
another thing, like he was abutcher you know that's right,
and there was and that'ssomething that people don't know
like he actually was anapprentice working, like he
chopped up meat, you know, andand that I don't know.

(47:30):
Like that's that's a red flagright there.
Uh, he came the night beforethe murders, uh, and like, and
he kind of just popped up in thehouse like hey, I'm here, and
he, instead of staying in theusual room, which was on the,
the third floor, right rightnext to where bridget sullivan
stayed, uh, he stayed on thesecond floor, uh, and and the,
the, what is now called the johnmorse room, and that's where

(47:51):
abby borden was was murdered, sothat even the room that he
chose to stay in was odd, uh,for for him.
Oh, and also this is anotherweird fact the night after abby
was brutally butchered in the inthe second floor room, he
stayed in the same room thenight of the murder.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
And yeah, that the whole family staying even in the
house was I feel like strangeenough.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
But yeah, to stay in the exact room that's that's
yeah, that takes a characteryeah, yeah I would imagine,
though, that people going andvisiting the house now kind of
like what you were saying, likelike quotes, crazy lizzie, like
some things, like almost likeimitating her I would imagine
that Lizzie probably is notthere I mean maybe, but there's

(48:40):
so much energy that has gonethrough that house and it is
such a tragic site, or like home, like I can't imagine that
you're I mean everybody that'sgoing there is with the intent
of talking to something evil, orher, or you know what I mean,
like I don't know, like kind oflike a thought form, like you
were saying, or Egregore, orsomething like that.
Like I can't imagine thatLizzie's just still chilling in

(49:00):
that house, unless, for whateverreason, she's trapped.
I don't think that people arereally talking to her, do you?

Speaker 3 (49:05):
No, I mean, like that's my, that's my theory as
well.
I feel like that I did.
I had the conversation with her, so I feel like that she feels
the most comfortable atMaplecroft, which is her later
in life home, and then we alsoinvestigated that location for
her.
But I told her I'm like I willnever call you back to this
house, but can you please, youknow, for while we're filming

(49:26):
the show, make an appearance.
It was almost so.
We did the seance at the end ofthe show and she was in the
room.
So when we say Lizzieance atthe end of the show, and she was
in the room.
So when we say Lizzie's in theroom, she was.
So I think we were able to callher there for that case.
But that was to help thechildren and help Eliza Borden
and other family members and I'mgoing to get emotional because

(49:48):
she was kind of apprehensive tojoin.
Oh, I have goosebumps.
Yeah, but she participated,participated as she, she, um,
even in the afterlife she's aloving person.
I don't.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
I don't think she did it.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
And if she did it, I don't think it was no, I just
don't think she did it I mean Iwill say, like my, my
interaction with her, um, shedoesn't like being called back
to the murder house.
I told her I would never callher back again and I have it, uh
, and and so I, um, and peoplethat do, I, I I'm really um, I
try my best to like, spread theword like she does not want to

(50:22):
go back.
No, uh, like, so stop trying todo evps.
Talk to lizzie.
Another person that I feel isvictimized in the afterlife is
andrew borden, who was thefather.
Now, was he kind of aquestionable person?
Yes, I mean, he was a pennypincher, but he was a man in
1892 who, um was wealthy.
You know he probably had waysabout him that would not

(50:44):
translate well in modern times,but he was not like a demon.
You know, he like he's nowbeing portrayed in this really
dark way and I don't think thatthat's andrew borden that
they're interacting with.
It's something else.
It's like an egregore thoughtform, just like crazy Lizzie.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
I even like, when I refer to this splinter, I don't
know if it ever belonged toLizzie.
I mean, my theory is that maybe, like during the murders or
even before that, if there was asexual, sexual assault, that it
somehow psychically imprinteditself like in the property.
But I do think that, um, it'sassuming the role, and yeah, and

(51:20):
I do, and I do feel that, um,that lizzie doesn't like being
called back there and I and Iand I have I've been good on my
word, I haven't called her backI know she appreciates that, so
she needs to stop screaming atyou.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
I love it.
You almost get to be like anadvocate for people who have
been misrepresented like that.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
It's one thing to do that for the living, but it's
such a way too Like I feel likethat.
That's my role as a familymember is to advocate for the
family members who have passedand I have some questionable.
I mean, it's not just LizzieBorden, we're related to Eileen
Wuornos.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Oh, that's right.
I forgot you were, that's sowild.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
And that was found, that we did, like my mother,
like she brought me to LizzieBorden and to the Putnam family
who were major accusers in theSalem Witch Trials.
But then the producers on theshow.
They dug even deeper and it wascrazy, the people that Eileen
warned us there was also.
Marilyn Monroe is someonethat's connected to us as well
and I feel very, very connectedto her, and when I go to

(52:29):
California, I would love to youknow, like, because, like the
DNA evidence that was found wasfairly recent, so we're able to
use DNA to prove that sheactually who her father was, who
was she's a Gifford, who'sconnected to our family as well.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
It's so interesting what we're able to do with all
the DNA.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
I just did my DNA and I got shit.
I got nothing and you haveeverybody.
I'm so jealous.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
A lot of it too Like so, for example, marilyn, like
we didn't know who herbiological father was.
So what we had to do was we hadto use Ancestrycom which is
what my mom used coupled withforensic for DNA and so like so
it didn't just pop up on thewhen you do the DNA.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
You had to like.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
You had to like yeah, to dig in, and now that we know
um maryland's biological uhfather, we know that she's also
maryland's related to lizzie too, which is oh that's that's very
new.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
That's very new.
Oh wow, that's cool.
Okay, so I'm sure we're all.
How long have we been going?
I'm sure we want to wrap thisup.
Okay, I guess my final question, unless you have anything else
to tell us, is, now that we'vejust started talking about, like
, terrible people that youhappen to be related to, some,
some paranormal aspects and someyou know murderers not Lizzie,

(53:51):
but you know would you say thatyou're more afraid of people or
the paranormal.
Like who's the true monsters,would you say?

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Well, especially in the case of my family members,
if you really look and the waythat you worded it before, that
there was something not rightabout the Lizzie Borden case.
I think that the people thatcontrol the narrative on her
case, sort of like controls howwe view her in the modern day,
and those, those are the peoplethat are evil to me, the ones,

(54:19):
the ones that, um, manipulatethe truth to make it make them
look better, whether it's, uh,you know, like sort of like a
patriarchal approach to women,um, so, yeah, the ones that try
to control the narrative uh,really are evil in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, I, I, uh, there's a lot of paranormal
stuff that's very scary outthere.
But I tell zach all the timeI'm more afraid of people, yeah
I think they're the biggermonsters in this world than the
paranormal okay, I've got onefinal one for you too, sam.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Is so family or not right with being able to be an
advocate in such a different way?
Is there anybody else who youthink is misrepresented and you
might want to have a chance toclear a name?

Speaker 3 (55:00):
yeah, so I really.
The next steps for me is I wantto really look at um, like do
like a project called calledexonerated, where I can kind of
like maybe go in and look atcases that are similar to the
Borden murders in 1892.
And so, yeah, I mean the SalemWitch Trials is another case

(55:21):
that's really near and dear tomy heart my distant cousin, ann
Putnam Jr, who was one of theafflicted girls.
She was 12 years old during theSalem Witch Trials and she's
the only one of the afflictedgirls that uh apologized so and
she was shunned from thecommunity.
Now do I think that she did ahorrible, horrible thing,
absolutely uh, but I also thinkthat she was a child that was

(55:43):
being manipulated by her father,yeah, and uh, and so a lot of
what she she accused more than60 people, like 62 people, of
witchcraft and a lot of the onesthat she accused were executed.
So Ann Putnam is someone Iwould like to revisit, but she
was 12.
Even Eileen Wuornos, I mean, Iknow that she is guilty, but I

(56:05):
also feel that there was otherstuff going on there, definitely
mental illness stuff going onthere, and so I'm interested in
like looking at my familymembers but maybe taking it a
step beyond, uh, and likere-looking at cases, uh, and
hopefully like with a new lens.
Oh, another case that's reallylike on my plate of interest is

(56:28):
the pendle witches and um andlancaster, the in england, uh,
overseas, and I would love to gothere and um the pendle witches
were very similar to the salemwitch trials but it was 60 years
.
It was in the um 8, 16, 29 or16, 19 when the when the the

(56:48):
pendle witches were accused andexecuted oh wow.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
This is how you can tell he's a real researcher,
because you have all these yearsright in your brain and then
there's us who put our episodestogether.
We're like wait.
What did I say?
10 minutes ago.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Well, I mean the, the years of the pendle witches, so
it was 80 years before thesalem witch trials was 1692, so
actually it was 1612.
So I have to make sure I getthe right, the year correct.
But yeah, like, and that's howI, that's how I remember it.
What was the difference inyears?
What's interesting about SalemWest Trials was 1692.
The Borden Riders was in 1892.
And I probably wouldn'tremember that year, except where

(57:23):
it was exactly 200 years apart.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
That makes it easier.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
You're giving us all your tricks now.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Wow, well, this was so much fun.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Absolutely.
I mean starts with spectralscreaming.
We've had a coupleinterruptions along the way.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
I love it, I know.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
I've learned some more.
So, no, this has beenincredible, sam, for anybody who
needs to find more informationabout you, if they want to pick
up some of the books or checkout anything online or the
documentaries what's the bestway for people to find you?

Speaker 3 (57:52):
I highly recommend going to my website
sambaltrusiscom.
It's B-A-L-T-R-U-S-I-ScomCurrently working on books, and
you can find them all on Amazonand your local bookstores.
Highly recommend going to abookstore, if you can to get my
books.
Another thing that I'm workingon too so'm working on the

(58:13):
haunted castles of new england.
I'm doing an anthology calledcalled haunted travels anthology
that's coming out this summerand I'm bringing that to uh, an
event near you, uh, andhopefully you guys will be able
to support the paranormalwriting community, or ghost
writers as they call them yeah,no awesome ghost writers?

Speaker 1 (58:31):
fantastic yeah, and we'll make sure that the website
is linked down in the shownotes, so anybody listening,
just one click away.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
You were also just in haunted mag, right?

Speaker 3 (58:38):
yeah, so I I regularly contribute to haunted
magazine and I love, I love thatpublication because it's so
diverse.
It's actually um, it's producedin the uk, uh so, but it's cool
because a lot of the storiesare um american stories.
So we have a lot of greatwriters.
Richard Estep is a regular,amanda Woomer is a regular, so

(58:59):
Alex Matsuo.
So a lot of people that Iconsider, people that I respect
in the paranormal researchcommunity contribute to Haunted
Magazine.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Awesome.
So there's a lot of ways thatpeople can get their hands on
your stuff.
We love that.
That people can get their handson your stuff.
We love that, okay.
So one other thing that we askis we like to leave an emoji.
We have our listeners leave anemoji when we post the episode
stuff.
So what emoji would you like tobe left for your episode?

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Well, I mean, my first response thought was it
was an axe.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
But Okay, I was gonna say maybe, maybe a book,
because you have a lot of books,but I don't want to be known
for the axe.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
So yeah, I mean maybe like so ghost writers, or maybe
how about a raven?
I like a raven.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
Oh okay, there has to be a little raven or a crow
emoji.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
I'm sure Perfect, I like that.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
I love ravens, oh, and I want to crow.
So bad See I would.
I would take a puck.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Would you?
I would do it, she absolutelywould.
She tries to take everything asa pet.
Okay, all right, sam, we'll letyou get on with your night.
We'll let all the little audioshop listeners get on with the
night, so, kara well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
We appreciate you so much, Sam, for coming.
Thank you again.
Like we are so incrediblygrateful Listeners, we're so
incredibly grateful for you.
Please leave a raven, I guess araven, a book, an axe, whatever
, preferably a raven.
Leave those emojis so that weknow that you listened and you
like this episode.
We appreciate you so much, butthe most important thing that
you can do for us is to creep areally little oddballs.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Goodbye.
You got to throw us a goodbye,goodbye, perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
We probably could have warned you thank you so
much that was.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
That was a lot of that was fun.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
Thank you, I'm out.