June 5, 2025 • 58 mins
Our hosts dive deep into this 1999 cult classic, examining how it blends Catholic doctrine with elements of Greek mythology and Jewish mysticism to create a uniquely irreverent yet thoughtful commentary on faith. Is there hints of romance sprinkled into this film?
The film follows two fallen angels (Matt Damon and Ben Affleck) who discover a loophole that would allow them to return to heaven—with the unfortunate side effect of negating all existence. Standing in their way is a ragtag group including the last living descendant of Jesus (Linda Fiorentino), the 13th apostle (Chris Rock), a muse-turned-stripper (Salma Hayek), and everyone's favorite stoners, Jay and Silent Bob.
Twenty-plus years later, some aspects haven't aged well, but the film's willingness to question religious authority while respecting personal faith still resonates. Our hosts debate whether the movie holds up, with opinions ranging from "five stars, would watch again" to "not as impressive as I remembered." We also unpack the fascinating production stories, including how Kevin Smith famously joined Catholic protesters demonstrating against his own film and how the marketing team replaced Fiorentino's body with another actress's more curvaceous figure without her permission.
Whether you're revisiting this controversial classic or hearing about it for the first time, our conversation highlights why "Dogma" remains a significant cultural touchstone that's worth tracking down on DVD—at least until Smith's recently reclaimed rights finally bring it back to screens everywhere. Have you seen Dogma? Let us know what you thought about this religious satire that dared to ask the important questions, like whether God really is a skee-ball enthusiast.
Links from the News Segment and Show:
- Acrylipics is doing a special edition version of Abigail Owen’s Games Gods Play
- Frankenstein is getting the Minalima treatment (Oct 28)
- Leigh Bardugo book teased
- Unnamed Ninth House book 3 will likely publish in Fall 2026
- Amazon Link
- Prologue snippet released for SenLinYu novel - Alchemised
- Controversy over AI use by romantasy author
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Goodreads - http://www.goodreads.com/ofswordsandsoulmates
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the
participants.
The hosts make no claim to beliterary experts and their
opinions are exactly thatopinions.
All creative works discussed orreviewed are the intellectual
property of the creators of saidstories and is being used under
the Fair Use Doctrine.
Mari (00:31):
Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast
where we read, watch and discussromanticist stories.
I'm one of your hosts, mari,and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly (00:35):
Hey everyone, it's Kelly.
We also have Ashley.
Ashley (00:37):
Hey guys, it's Ashley.
We also have Jonathan.
Jonathan (00:40):
Hey, it's JP.
What's good everyone.
Ashley (00:43):
That was mellow for you, I tried.
Mari (00:46):
Are you tired?
Jonathan (00:49):
Potentially.
Mari (00:51):
Well, today we're going to be discussing the 1999 film
Dogma, but first, as always,some news.
We've got a few things today.
First off is that Aquilapix isdoing a special edition version
of Abigail Owen's Games GodsPlay, and it's really pretty.
Ashley (01:10):
It's so pretty.
Mari (01:11):
It really is.
It's got three.
It's a three-sided digitallyprinted pages.
It's got gold-foiled dustjackets.
It's all done by the Acrylipixartist Molly.
Yeah, the pictures look reallypretty.
Ashley (01:29):
I'm so happy for her.
I know she works really hard.
Jonathan (01:33):
Oh, abigail, yes, she's sparkly.
Mari (01:37):
She's sparkly and she's hard working for sure.
Jonathan (01:42):
I'm going to make her one of those bookmark.
Don't tell her, she can knowI'm going to make like one of
those bookmark don't tell her.
Oh well, she can know I'll makeher one of those bookmark um
purses, like you know kind ofthing, and I had ordered like
this, very like gold sparklystrap, shoulder strap for her oh
, that's cute she likes.
She likes sparkly things.
She always wears those likeshiny sequin tops and stuff to
(02:03):
events.
Mari (02:04):
Is she going to be at Romana Seacon this year?
I haven't looked through allthe authors?
Ashley (02:09):
I think yes, oh good.
Mari (02:12):
That'd be good to see her again.
Okay, the other news bit I haveis that Frankenstein is getting
the MinaLima treatment, and I'mso excited for this.
I've been wanting a new specialedition Frankenstein because
the one I have is, I don't know,like 15 years old and I've read
(02:34):
it a lot and it's just fallingapart.
So MinaLima is a design duo.
It's Mirafona Mina and EduardoLima.
They're a design team and theydid all the graphic stuff.
They were famous for doing allthe graphic stuff for the Harry
Potter movies, but they doreally, really good versions of
like classic books.
(02:55):
So they've done like Alice inWonderland and Wizard of Oz,
sleeping Beauty, peter Pan, andthey take them and they're like
I don't know, they're like someof the fanciest pop-up books
I've seen.
So they're like beautifullyillustrated, but then they also
have like pop-up elements andlike things where you twist or
you turn Very interactive.
(03:16):
Yeah.
So I'm really excited to seewhat they're going to do for
Frankenstein.
So it's going to come outOctober 28th of this year.
They described it as havingillustrations, seven interactive
paper engineered elements andenthralling design details on
every page.
If you pre-order it from theirwebsite, which is in the UK, so
(03:39):
you're going to pay more.
But if you pre-order it fromthere, you get a signed version
by them.
But if you pre-order it fromthere, you get a signed version
by them and they are including aprinted image.
That's only going to beavailable if you pre-order the
book.
It's like Frankenstein'sLaboratory or whatever.
Yeah, I may have pre-ordered ittoday.
May have.
Jonathan (04:05):
I did, spoiler alert I did.
What does it add to it in termsof getting it to the US?
What does it add to the price?
Just curious.
I think the whole thing whenyou convert everything over and
when you add, I think it waslike around $50.
Mari (04:19):
That's not bad, yeah, that's not bad, especially for
what you get.
Yeah, I think the price onthere is like 30 something
pounds, um, so if you're in theuk, obviously it's cheaper.
I know that mina lima also hasseveral like interactive stores
you can go in.
There's one in scotland, one inlondon, I want to say.
There's one in new york I'm not100 sure um, one somewhere else
(04:40):
, I want to say tokyo, but I maybe wrong.
But they do have, like thesestores or like museums, slash
stores, slash art gallery, andthey.
I mean, if you're going to oneof those or if you live close to
one of those, you couldprobably get it without the
shipping costs.
I don't know if they wouldinclude that image, though, the
pre-order image.
Ashley (05:01):
I didn't know they had like other stores.
Mari (05:04):
Yes, so the London one was the first one and then Scotland
came not too long after.
I want to say I heard somethingabout New York, but I may be
imagining that.
Look on their website.
I don't want to steer anybodywrong, but I thought they had
two other ones outside of, likethe UK.
But yeah, they do reallybeautiful work.
They also have like posters andprints you can buy.
(05:26):
So if anyone is decorating anursery, they do a gaggle of
geese or a herd of horses, theydo this whole series of things
that it's a group of things andthey have these really pretty
illustrations for it.
It's really cute for a kid'sroom or nursery, I think.
Ashley (05:47):
They really are so talented.
Yeah, it's really some of themost beautiful artwork that I've
ever seen.
Mari (05:52):
Yeah, yeah, if you ever get the chance like if they're
ever at any event that you go to, if you ever get the chance to
meet them.
They're also very, very niceand very sweet.
I met them.
They were at City Walk not toolong ago, weren't they?
Yeah, they ran well, notrandomly, I guess they do come
to events and if you follow themit'll say when, but it's like
it's also I don't know, it seemslike most of the time they come
(06:14):
it's not part of any big event,it's not like part.
I'm going to go to Orlando tosee them specifically, you know
if I happen to be there, yeah,yeah, but they do really pretty,
(06:34):
really, really good work.
The last two little bits I haveis I'm on Leah Bardugo's
newsletter and she released alittle book teaser thing that
the third book in the NinthHouse series which the first one
was Ninth House, the second onewas Hellbent.
So the third one in that seriesis coming out in fall of next
(06:55):
year.
It doesn't have a title yet, itdoesn't have an exact release
date yet, but it is coming out,which is it's a good series.
It's kind of a dark academia.
I would describe it as it's gota little bit of a little bit of
magic vibes, but it's mainlydark academia.
Has anybody else read thoseother than me?
I tried.
Ashley (07:16):
I think I tried the audiobook and I just couldn't.
I don't think I got very far,but I want to.
It's on my tBR it's definitely.
Mari (07:26):
I feel like it's definitely very dark academia
like I.
You know some are good day darkacademia kind of also has like
fantasy vibes or steampunk orcrossover.
This it felt very much likesquarely in the dark academia
genre and the main character isnot my favorite and I think that
can make it a little difficulttoo.
Um, but I ended up liking thestory overall, the direction she
(07:51):
took it.
Uh, so I'm curious to see wherethe third, where the third
one's going.
I have of news is from Sen LinYu's email newsletter thing.
They released a prologue teasersnippet from yes, from
Alchemize, like it just came outtoday.
(08:14):
So it's on the little snippetson Instagram as well, but the
bigger part of the prologue ison the newsletter.
So I'm going to read thesnippet that they put on
Instagram.
Helena wondered sometimes ifshe still had eyes.
The darkness surrounding hernever ended.
She thought at first, if shewaited long enough, some glimmer
of light would appear orsomeone would come.
Yet no matter how long shewaited, there was nothing.
Ashley (08:38):
Just endless dark.
I immediately teared up.
Right now I know, I knowexactly where that is.
Mari (08:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll send you the full prologue thing
she put on the newsletter.
Yeah, so that was exciting,it's getting more and more
official.
Ashley (08:56):
Yeah yeah, that's rough.
I feel rough already.
Yeah yeah, so very much lookingforward to being destroyed
again.
Mari (09:03):
I feel rough already.
Yeah, yeah, so very muchlooking forward to being
destroyed again, I guess, bythat book.
Ashley (09:12):
Isn't that such an interesting feeling.
Like you're, just you know thatthis book is going to destroy
you and you can't wait for itstill, yeah.
Mari (09:20):
Yeah, I'm just really curious how she's going to
rework it.
Like I really want to see, seehow she she changes it, you know
, how she makes it her own.
Ashley (09:29):
That's a tall order, because it is a beloved series.
Mari (09:35):
Anybody else have any news tidbits.
Jonathan (10:00):
So just the news just kind of.
Kelly (10:01):
The story, I guess, has been bubbling for a day or two,
but just now published on a newssite that the author, Lena
MacDonald, who wrote Dark HollowAcademy apparently her new book
, Dark Hollow Academy, year twothat just dropped, had a AI
prompt in it that would indicatethat she was using ai to edit
her book.
And the ai prompt says passagerewritten to align more with jay
bree style for more tension,gritty undertones and raw
emotional subtext beneath thesupernatural elements oh no.
So that's exactly the promptyou would get if you put a oh no
(10:23):
, that's exactly the prompt youwould get if you put a bunch of
text into an AI, into OpenAI,and said rewrite this to match
it to whatever author style orrewrite this to match it with
whatever.
The book has already beenupdated on Kindle since it was
published and that passageremoved.
But there's already a lot ofbacklash, as you can imagine.
Ashley (10:44):
How crazy.
Kelly (10:46):
Yeah, so McDonald who publishes under the name I guess
Sienna Patterson Interesting.
Jonathan (10:51):
It's getting like Kelly coming with the tea today,
hand in the cookie jar.
Kelly (10:55):
So this this is becoming a problem in academia, which is
where I've been kind of seeingit.
Is that, which is where I'vebeen kind of seeing it?
(11:19):
Is that some of the stuff I do?
Jonathan (11:19):
tangentially.
That's related to academia.
We've all had to signagreements saying that we will
not use AI to do any of thiswork for creating test banks.
What does it get you Like?
Are you like?
Does it get you like?
Is this people trying to getthe grades up?
Is that what's happening?
Kelly (11:28):
I mean, I don't know why people are using it in academia,
I guess to help them writepapers.
Mari (11:32):
Yeah.
Kelly (11:34):
I mean that would be the obvious thing.
I mean there's been people, youthere's been, you know, no
shortage of people willing totake money to write papers for
people since you know, sinceacademia existed.
Jonathan (11:46):
But AI now makes it so much easier, and so it's
becoming a pretty big problem inacademia I heard somewhere that
, like, teachers are just likenow, they're just like yeah, I
mean like it doesn't make senseto to fight it, so instead we'll
just use it, but in a differenthey, come write this paper and
(12:06):
now let's let's edit it togetherand make that the test, rather
than making the actual writingof the paper the test and just
be like we figure you allprobably used AI at some point,
but now let's go back andcorrect AI, because AI is not
perfect.
Kelly (12:23):
Well, the problem is is an author passing an ai piece of
work off as their own?
Jonathan (12:28):
right yeah it it.
This goes from like artistryinto it.
It twists the use of it as atool into the artistic
representation does that?
Make.
Does that make sense, like it's?
Mari (12:42):
yeah, yeah, you're putting it out there as if you're
putting the same level ofcreative spark into it as
someone yeah, creative spark andeffort.
Jonathan (12:49):
As someone who you know birthed a novel wholesale
yeah, no no, exactly, exactly,it's um, like I find it
difficult to believe that mostauthors, especially those who
are balling on a budget, likedoing e-publish stuff that
they're not using tools to edit.
Kelly (13:09):
Well, there's a difference between.
There's a difference betweenusing grammarly to edit your
grammar and spelling checks anda difference between using AI to
say, eh, I don't like this,Rewrite this and make it better.
But put it in the style of DrSeuss or I don't know where, I
don't know what to do next, whatshould these characters do next
?
Or you know whatever.
I think that's where theproblem is.
Mari (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, well, and then add to that the problem that a
lot of these AIs have beentrained by using artists' work
without their permission, right,so it's like theft upon theft.
Jonathan (13:42):
Well, that's a gray area.
I don't think you'd call it.
I think we call it theftbecause we think of it as like a
machine, but we're all inspiredby other people.
Kelly (13:49):
There's a difference between being inspired and using
a machine that compresses allof everything that everyone's
ever written and distilled itdown.
It's the copy and paste for me,yeah.
Ashley (14:00):
Like, do better at that point, just you know, spin it,
be creative.
Like, do better at that point,just you know, spin it, be
creative.
You know I get there's aburnout point in the process and
that can be stressful.
Jonathan (14:14):
But to be like word for word for something like that
is pretty wild yeah if you wantto get even with um ai, the way
to do that is to be polite toAI.
It costs them.
I forget what the cost is, butthe more people thank AI and are
just like, very polite andcordial, the more they tell you
to just be short and clippedwith AI because it costs them so
(14:36):
much money for AI to say thankyou, to reply to your kindness.
Kelly (14:41):
So if you want to get them where it hurts in the
pocketbook- there's a reasonthere's no good science fiction
book where ai is a positiveexactly I mean we've, we've all
been using ai for decades now.
Ashley (14:53):
We just didn't know it kelly coming in hot with the tea
.
Kelly (14:57):
Good job, kelly the thing I wonder about is, if this one
person is caught, how manyauthors are using it and haven't
gotten caught?
Mari (15:08):
We've talked about before, how many authors are having
mental health breakdowns andthings trying to keep up with
what they think is the industrystandard, when really it's
people not actually writingbooks, it's AI.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, you have people that canchurn out a bunch of books a
year and then you have peoplewho are like stressing
themselves out to try andcompete with unrealistic
(15:32):
industry standard and I put thatin in air quotes, you know I
think I heard somewhere thatthey have to write like in order
to be a successful andprofitable author, you have to
have like something like 40books in in print somewhere in
order to live off of that stuff.
Jonathan (15:47):
Can you like the stress of getting one out?
Right, I can't imagine writingone it's hard enough to read one
for me, right?
So it's like dang you know,like and and how do you?
I, I did hear that a lot, of alot of times, like we were at
some of those panels, I thinklast year, when authors were
(16:08):
saying things like they stopreading while they're writing so
that they're not accidentallyinfluenced, right, I can't
imagine doing that because, likethere are times where, like
I'll have an idea for somethingand I'll be like this is the
greatest thing since slicedbread, and then google it and
you're like it's yeah, that'sbeen out for I mean there's
(16:28):
always going to be.
Kelly (16:29):
There's always going to be creative yahtzee.
I mean that's just a part ofthe creative process where you
think of something that's anoriginal thought for you, but
somebody's already done it ordone something similar to it and
just because somebody's donesomething similar doesn't mean
that what you're doing isn'tworthwhile.
Mari (16:44):
Like, how many versions of Pride and Prejudice and
retellings of Pride andPrejudice exist in the world
right now?
Like, I don't know, I probablyhave 20 in our house.
You know, like there's justsome things, are some ideas, and
some things are worth repeatingfor the learning process and
(17:05):
for putting your own spin on it,and I think that's something
that carries over from differentkinds of creative pursuits,
like visual artists.
You know, back in the day,painting, you would have the
people who were learning People.
I didn't go to art school, butmy understanding is a lot of
times when you're learning inart school, you do copy the
masters.
(17:25):
You learn how to try andrecreate the different masters
in the different works and alsolike, oh, try and draw this in
Picasso style, try and draw thisin Van Gogh style to stretch
your creative muscles.
So there's something to be saidfor using what exists before
you to create something new, butI think that human element is
(17:48):
still necessary to make it good.
Jonathan (17:52):
What was that movie with Robin Williams where he was
like a robot and thenprogressively as the movie went
on?
Ashley (17:59):
Bicentennial man.
Jonathan (18:00):
Antonio Manz, that's it.
He became more and more untilhe actually was a human.
It's just.
It's interesting what a worldwe live in, that if you would
have asked me when I was a kid,like what, I would have been
like yeah, we're gonna haveflying cars, not, we're gonna
(18:21):
have.
We're gonna be talking aboutthe danger of slipping back into
the dark ages, but also havethis very powerful, everything I
own is connected to theinternet kind of situation that
we're living in.
It's just wild.
Mari (18:35):
Agreed, agreed.
Any other news?
I?
Jonathan (18:40):
walk around with a supercomputer in my pocket all
day.
Ashley (18:43):
Yeah, did you guys see that the app updated?
For what is it called guidebook?
Guidebook, yeah, for yeah formenace econ.
Mari (18:52):
Yes, so you can download.
You download the guide book appand you can download and see,
like, the schedule of things,although I I think it'll be like
last year where they're stillkind of finalizing it and we'll
be tweaking things because itwon't be till I I believe August
1st is when you can actuallysign up for things Like sign up
for panels and tickets andwhatnot.
So I believe there'll bechanges up until then.
(19:14):
But, yeah, you can look and seewho the ticketed authors are,
more or less the panels and themap of the hotel, like where
things are going to be laid out,and you can filter out the
things that are available foryou to do based off the ticket
level that you bought, and youcan like contact people and
(19:37):
friend them.
Yeah, it's a good little app.
So if anyone's thinking ofgoing, I would absolutely
download that app and getfamiliar with it before August
1st.
If you're wanting to try andget into anything, yeah for sure
(19:59):
.
I don't think as as this year,but I know last year there was
one or two panels that I hadwanted to go into that were full
on the app and yet when thepanel was like had started or
right before starting.
They last minute let people inbecause there was enough space.
So people who had maybe gottentickets for it or whatever ended
up not going.
(20:20):
So there were empty spotsavailable for it.
So just because you may not getinto a panel, this is different
from a ticketed author signingsituation.
But if there's a panel you wantto go to and you're not able to
get into it and it's one youreally, really want to go to, I
would still go and like stand inline and after they let
everybody in, if they're stillletting other people in, you
might be able to get in.
(20:40):
It's not guaranteed, you know.
Good pro tip.
Any other news tidbits?
Ashley (20:46):
nope, that's all I got all right.
Mari (20:49):
So we watched dogma as our story that we're going to be
talking about um this episode,I'm going to read the synopsis
and then we can get into ourtalk about it.
So this is from imdb.
Two fallen angels who wereejected from paradise find
themselves banned in Wisconsin.
They're now headed for NewJersey where they find a
(21:11):
loophole that can get them backinto heaven.
The only catch is that it willdestroy humanity.
A group bands together to stopthem.
That's the synopsis.
That's the imdb synopsis.
What I mean?
Technically it's true.
Ashley (21:27):
Yeah no, I just there's so much, there's so much more to
that story.
Mari (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't find any sort of like official
synopsis, official blurbs.
There's like a long plotsynopsis you could find like the
whole breakdown of the movie,but I'm no, nobody needs to be
reading all that.
Ashley (21:46):
That's so interesting yeah.
Mari (21:48):
Yeah, I don't think I had watched this movie since like
probably when it first came outor very close to when it first
came out since the nineties.
For sure it's the last time Iwatched this movie, but I
watched it again last night forthe first time in 20 something
years last night.
Jonathan (22:08):
Uh, for the first time in 20 something years we've
definitely watched it in thepast decade, but it had been
long enough that we were like we.
First thing we did was look forit to stream, and then we were
not available anywhere yeah, sothen.
But then we were like we, weknew we owned it.
So I had to like find the d DVDfolder that I had.
Like we was stuffed in a cornersomewhere.
And I was like, oh, I got it,yeah, I have it right here.
(22:29):
And then I walked out to theliving room and I was like, oh,
where am I going to put it in?
So I was like, do we have to gobuy a DVD player?
We might as well just streamthis thing anyway.
And then I lifted up with oneof the coffee tables that lifts
up, and inside there is where Ikeep the projector.
And um, and underneath that,apparently what I used
(22:50):
previously to hold the projectorat the correct height was the
DVD player.
So so I was like, let me get myprojector riser box out.
And I got that out and I waslike, oh, I got to plug this in,
plug it in.
I was like, got that out and Iwas like, oh, I gotta plug this
in, plug it in.
I was like I, I would the nextfear was do I have a remote to
operate this tvd player?
Thankfully, I did such a goodjob that everything was where it
(23:12):
was supposed to be and we wereable to watch it nice.
Mari (23:16):
Now do you guys know why it's not streaming anywhere?
Ashley (23:19):
fucking harvey weinstein , yep really.
You don't know this story.
I don't know this.
Jonathan (23:24):
No, tell me this story .
Wow, I've impressed.
Ashley (23:29):
Kelly.
Kelly (23:31):
No, no, go ahead, mari.
Mari (23:33):
Me Okay, so I didn't research it fully, for I figured
somebody else would know, buthere's what I know about it.
So Weinstein owns the rights toit.
So Weinstein owns the rights toit.
And Weinstein approached KevinSmith, the director and writer,
(23:56):
and soundbob approached him todo a sequel, and I think this is
my understanding and they werelike no, and then that's
apparently right around the timewhere everything was coming out
about Weinstein and I don'tknow if he was actually
approaching for this.
I don't know if there'ssomething beef between Smith and
Weinstein, but Kevin Smith sayssomething about like he thought
that this was about the timethat Weinstein was trying to
figure out who was ratting onhim.
Basically, weinstein pulled itfor everybody that you know
(24:17):
they're not.
You're never gonna make asequel, you're never gonna get
any money from it.
It's never, never going to bestreaming anywhere.
Yeah, weinstein basically hadthe rights to this, has had.
I don't know what the legalsituation is now, but they had
the rights to it, which is whyit's not streaming anywhere.
So if you don't have thephysical media for this, you're
not watching it.
Wow.
Jonathan (24:35):
Wow, I was surprised.
Mari (24:37):
And added layer to that, the Weinstein thing.
We're not going to get intohere, but it's horrendous sexual
assaults, abuse of powersituations, the I forget her
name the main actress who playedBethany in this movie.
Her name is.
Ashley (24:53):
Linda.
Mari (24:54):
Fiorentino.
Yeah, fiorentino, like at thetime she was basically not
blacklisted but she was liketalked about as being very
difficult to work with, listed,but she was like talked about as
being very difficult to workwith um, which is apparently a
an mo that weinstein didwhenever someone didn't go along
with what he wanted them to do.
Um, he would like um defamethem for being a difficult,
(25:16):
usually actress to be with ifthey wouldn't do whatever he
wanted them to do sexually.
And so, yeah, apparently hercareer suffered for that, to the
point where, after Kevin Smithhad his heart attack and
Fiorentino, like I don't know,she sent him flowers or
something I don't know shereached out to him.
He like did some sort of apublic apology for the way she
(25:37):
was treated during that time,because so she was treated that
way and the movie posters, theofficial movie posters for Dogma
or some of the official moviestuff that got released for
Dogma, the pictures and alldidn't use her body, it used a
bustier version, another actresswith bigger boobs, and they put
her head on it.
Yeah, and she was like that isnot cool.
(25:58):
I did not get permission forthat, right, this was the 90s,
nobody cared and she was justlabeled as this difficult
actress and it affected the restof her career for it.
Right, this was the 90s, nobodycared.
And she was just labeled asthis difficult actress and it
affected the rest of her careerfor it.
Wow yeah.
Kelly (26:10):
So the good news is that on his podcast a few months ago,
Kevin Smith said that he hasgot Dogma out from underneath
Harvey Weinstein's productioncompany.
Mari (26:20):
Good.
Kelly (26:21):
So it is out of that company now and it's in a new
company and now he's trying tofigure out, go through the legal
hoops to be able to finallyrelease it.
Ashley (26:31):
So so that must be why he's able to release it in the
theaters right for theanniversary right um, so I heard
basically the same interview,marie, that I think you probably
saw if I didn't already send itto you guys.
I had seen basically the samething that you know Kevin would
reach out to Harvey Weinstein'speople every you know five, 10
(26:53):
years and be like, hey, there'sthis anniversary, we should do
something.
And he'd never hear back.
And then, right before the bignews story dropped outing
Weinstein, he did call Kevin andlike, pretend, allegedly
pretended that he wanted to doan anniversary thing for dogma,
and the feedback that Kevin gotafter that was that Harvey was
(27:15):
like feeling him out to see ifhe was part of the like quote
leak is what I remember, um, andthat you know, weinstein was
basically like yanking his chain.
He was never gonna, you know,do anything for dogma, he was
just trying to save his own asswell, that sucks yeah, it's a
(27:35):
wild story.
Mari (27:36):
Yeah, another layer that I thought was interesting that I
learned not 100 related to that,but when I was looking the
stuff up about Linda Ferentino,apparently she wasn't the first
pick of who Kevin Smith wantedfor this.
They wanted Gillian AndersonScully from the X-Files to play
that role.
Ashley (27:54):
I can see that.
I can see that for them.
Mari (27:57):
I love her so much I literally have her tattooed on
my bicep.
Jonathan (28:03):
I was going to say I'm pretty sure I thought I was
gonna say I thought there wasmaybe some artwork there yes, I
met her.
Mari (28:10):
She's amazing.
I love her.
Ashley (28:12):
Yeah, she's also like teeny, teeny tiny sure, well,
and I can see like they'respoofing things right yes, I can
see how and why they would wanther for that role.
That fits.
Mari (28:25):
Right, especi ally, you think, the 90s, when X-Files was
still hot and that thecharacter Scully was this you
know lapsed faithful person,occasionally lapsed, occasiona
lly faithful, and yet a skepticwhen it came to the Mulder stuff
.
Like it would have been areally interesting crossover,
but apparently Jillian hated thescript so she said no.
(28:48):
Thank you, jillian.
Well, no.
All that being said, what didwe think of of the movie?
Ashley (28:56):
overall rating Do you want me to go first?
This was a five for me and Idon't have any logic behind it.
I love this movie.
I used to know it, line by line, probably.
I mean watching it.
This is the first time we'vewatched it as an adult, right,
because 10 years ago I was notan adult.
But I mean in the level.
At the level, just becausegenetically the united states
(29:19):
says I was adult does not meanmentally or emotionally I was um
, yeah, the.
The level at which I had thismovie memorized as a teenager is
probably unhealthy.
I mean, in 1999, I would havebeen 12.
So 13, 14, 15, I had this moviememorized.
My parents should have beenwatching a lot closer.
All of that to say it was justit was.
(29:42):
It was a hysterical movie to meand I think it gives you all.
I think you laugh.
I think there are probably ahandful of things that didn't
age well, but that tracks forthe 90s, right, and I was
thoroughly entertainedre-watching this movie.
I would watch it again.
Jonathan (30:03):
I love this movie.
You love this movie, wouldwatch it again.
Ashley (30:05):
I love this movie you love this movie.
Jonathan (30:07):
Yeah, I like that.
It challenges.
It challenges the, the statusquo.
What was my childhood?
So the moment I got to sit downand watch this movie, um, I was
like, yeah, I've been tellingy'all about, like, how dumb this
stuff is it validated you yeah,it validated me.
(30:28):
I thought it was great, Ithought it was like it showed,
like you know what was the card.
It was a cardinal, cardinalglick or whatever.
Uh, he was uh george yeah, itwas like.
Yeah, that was like monsignoryou know I won't drop his name,
but he was just like, yeah, likethat's the.
It's exactly the way I envisionthese people being, like maybe
(30:54):
they they worship, but they werelike let's make a buck.
So I it was validating whenthat film came out for me and I
appreciate it.
Five stars.
Mari (31:10):
What do you think, Kelly?
Kelly (31:10):
This is probably Kevin Smith's best movie.
Think, overall, this movie hadeverything going right for it.
It had good comedic timing, ithad a good script, it had a
funny concept.
Everything seemed to work forit.
So I would really have to saythat this is like a four and a
half.
It's probably one of the bestmovies to sort of poke fun at
(31:33):
Catholicism without going overthe line of being like insulting
.
I think the only movie thatmaybe does it slightly better
would be the 80s movie HeavenHelp Us, which is a little bit
more about growing up in like aCatholic school.
So it's a little bit pokes, alittle bit more fun of
Catholicism from that direction.
(31:54):
And Heaven Help Us, of course,is a classic because it had a.
It was like the film debut of alot of young actors who would
become more prominent later.
So you had, like young AndrewMcCarthy, young Kevin Dillon,
young Patrick Dempsey, you hadan appearance by Wallace Shawn,
you had Donald Sutherland as aguest appearance.
(32:15):
So it was a lot of big names, alot of actors who would go on
to become big names.
Mari (32:21):
Nice, okay For me.
I didn't think it was as goodas I remembered it being.
I don't know if I built it upin my head because I remember
liking it.
I remember thinking it had somereally interesting, cool,
thought-provoking things.
I also remember, um, it beingthis big like act of rebellion
(32:42):
to watch it, because it was I.
I was detransitioning out ofthe Catholic church stuff kind
of around that time and like itwas this whole like oh, don't
watch this, you know it's a badmovie, or whatever.
So then when I rewatched itlast night I was like for me it
wasn't as funny as I remembered,it wasn't as edgy as I
remembered.
I wasn't impressed with theacting, like even people I knew
(33:06):
are good actors, like AlanRickman, love, love, love.
And I was just like even AlanRickman's performance was not
doing it for me.
So I don't know if it's becauseI built it up in my head, I
don't know.
For me it was a three.
It was just not as good as Iremembered it being.
Ashley (33:24):
It was fine I would like to state for the record I
didn't say that this was amazing, acting right there was no
oscar performances here, no, no,no, I mean alan rickman was
doing his best he was, he reallydid.
He put us all in there and hedidn't have to, and everybody
should appreciate that all forthe more.
Mari (33:46):
Did you guys see the thing ?
That was it Jay.
The guy who plays Jay was likeput all this hardcore effort
into memorizing lines andeverything because he didn't
want to disappoint Alan Rickmanin this movie.
Kelly (33:57):
He did not, yeah he was like hardcore.
Mari (33:59):
He memorized other people's lines, everything.
He didn't want to disappointAlan Rickman Stop it.
Ashley (34:05):
That makes me love him more.
Mari (34:06):
Yeah.
Ashley (34:07):
Yeah.
Kelly (34:08):
The thing, about this movie.
I mean there's a lot of thingsabout this movie that don't
really age well, just becausethere's a lot of jokes that are
in the moment of the 90s.
Yeah, you know, there's a lotof things that wouldn't work now
.
You know, everybody has a cellphone now.
That wasn't the case when thismovie was made.
You know, things like that.
Um, there was someself-referential,
(34:30):
self-referential culture humor,like um, matt damon's, you know,
singing the martin theme song.
Yeah, like if you are notsomeone who grew up in this time
period or watched that show orknew about that show, that would
be completely lost on you.
Jonathan (34:49):
Yeah, do you remember when Dogma was released, the
story when Kevin Smith protestedagainst his own movie?
Kelly (34:59):
Yeah, that was funny.
Jonathan (35:00):
And it was cute.
Ashley (35:02):
Yeah, isn't that how Jay and silent bob came to be like
strike back?
Kelly (35:06):
yeah, that was kind of.
That was kind of the plot linefor that movie this entire plot
line for that movie when he butI didn't know it was an actual
protest right, oh he was.
Yeah, he was, I guess wasdebuting and like yeah, there
was a group of protesterscatholic protesters and so he
went and made his own sign andjoined them.
I think he even got interviewed.
(35:27):
Yeah, I think that's what Iheard.
Jonathan (35:30):
They were like we think we know this guy, let's
interview him I love this.
Ashley (35:37):
If I knew about it, I forgot it.
Jonathan (35:38):
That makes it better.
Ashley (35:40):
Because then it created Jay and Silent Bob, strike Back,
or Jay and Bob.
Yeah, that's what.
It is right, strike Back,that's the first one.
Kelly (35:46):
But there's just so many things about this movie that are
just hilarious concepts theBuddy Christ that just that very
concept itself is hilarious.
Mari (35:55):
Yeah, rebranding yeah.
Jonathan (35:59):
Yeah, the Catholicism, wow yeah.
Kelly (36:02):
I mean honestly, is a catholicism, wow?
Jonathan (36:03):
yeah, I mean honestly, I'm surprised the catholic
church hasn't tried that yeah Imean they were probably like
that bastard stole it's a good,it is a solid idea try.
Ashley (36:16):
We don't want to get sued by kevin smith.
And then they tried to off himright by giving him all the
carbs and the fatty foods, andhe's like fucking sticking
around good times.
Jonathan (36:25):
Good time.
No, I thought I thought it was.
Yeah, I did think that was agreat concept.
As I was watching I was likeyou know, makes a whole bunch of
sense, you know rebranding yeah, and they don't have a lot.
They don't have a lot of coolbrand work going for them.
They got the lowercase letter tand uh, that guy the one guy
yeah, they got that, they gotall those holidays, so that's
(36:47):
going good.
So, yeah, they could use arebrand.
Mari (36:49):
They did rebrand all those holidays from other cultures,
didn't they?
They're good at rebranding.
Jonathan (36:56):
I mean this could be a good move for Pope Bob.
He's young, fresh right out ofthe Chi-town.
Could he can make it happen forhim?
um, we got hopes for you, bobyeah, pope leo, if you're out
there listening, we're all for.
I think kelly's for the buddychrist I would probably I'm not
gonna lie, I'm not real deep ingoing to church myself.
(37:19):
But uh, pope leo, if you hearthis and you want to get me to
show up at church, I challengeyou to come up with like Buddy
Christ equivalent and re-invokethe Catholicism wild campaign
and I'll show up.
Ashley (37:34):
For funsies I'd show up For the t-shirt.
Kelly (37:37):
There are a lot of interesting things in this movie
too that are still true, I mean, essentially it's.
It's kind of hilarious in a waythat one part of the movie was
the, the company mooby that washad all the characters in the
restaurants and was essentiallya stand-in for disney right,
yeah yeah, and this movie wasowned essentially by disney yeah
(37:57):
that was.
Jonathan (37:57):
It was.
That was a pretty great flexand like uh, that's, I think
that's the hat that um silentbob is wearing movie movie the
cow.
Kelly (38:05):
Yeah, and it's.
And it's an interesting youknow point that you know Kevin
Smith made with humor, is thatyou know, idolatry through
consumerism.
Mari (38:18):
Yeah, also, the concept that you, you can.
You can like a thing and youstill can criticize it and make
fun of it, and you ought to beable to, because I believe I
thought I read that he wasChristian, at least at the time
of making this movie.
I don't know if he was Catholic, but he was Christian at least
at the time of making this movie.
So the idea that you cansubscribe to this thought
(38:40):
pattern and still be able toquestion and talk about it and
it not be this whole like youmust think exactly the way these
people say, otherwise you are,you know, bad or whatever yeah,
yeah, exactly as someone who gotin a lot of trouble in uh
catholic school, I these, theseideas and these concepts would
(39:01):
have had you sitting right nextto me oh yeah in detention so if
not expelled, yesyeah, exactly yes, yeah, yeah,
enough about that, uh, fantasyworld building you know, I like
it.
Jonathan (39:18):
The they were, I think it was.
It's so layered and intertwined, I mean all these worlds sort
of run together.
The whole premise is that theywere chasing after.
What are they trying to do?
They're trying to find uh.
They're trying to get all thegood, all the good weed in the
uh.
Or they're trying to sell weedto uh.
(39:41):
Was it the town like where theBrat Pack was from?
Right, when where all the thebrat pack movies were set I
think jay and silent bob, theirsetup, their shtick, really
carries a majority of of kevin'sfilms oh, for sure yeah, I love
the integration too.
Ashley (39:59):
You know it was fairly catholic based in the, you know,
in the discussion of religion,but how they branch off into
actual mythology, right.
So they bring up serendipity.
Who's amused?
Is that in the bible?
Mari (40:15):
I don't believe.
So I wrote down the same thingwhen I was like, yeah, they did
like christian mythology mixedwith like greek mythology right,
mixed with, I I think and ifsomeone knows better, please
correct me if I'm wrong but Ithink the Jewish mysticism,
because I think golems come fromlike Jewish mythology Ooh, good
catch and like the golemmonster thing I think it was
(40:36):
supposed to be a golem, it was amix of that.
Kelly (40:39):
So the muses Dante kind of, is the one who kind of
pulled the muses intoChristianity in a way, oh,
basically expressing that theGreek and Roman Muses, the
concept of the Muses, wereDivine inspiration, right
Allegory, you know, kind of likethey were talent given by God.
Mari (41:03):
Let's take that idea and adopt that too.
Right, we took Easterter, wetook christmas.
Let's.
Kelly (41:09):
Let's take that idea too dante did a lot of like in his
work where he had likeinvocations to the muses as
being, you know, god's divineinspiration interesting.
Ashley (41:21):
That's very interesting because I'd also never heard of
azrael being a muse.
Is that in a mythology, kelly?
Do you know?
Is that in your bank?
Kelly (41:29):
what do you mean as?
Azrael as a muse, like thedemon azrael, because he was he
he claimed to be.
Ashley (41:37):
He never appears.
That's why he didn't fight inthe war.
Right azrael was never in theChristian Bible.
Kelly (41:42):
So Asriel doesn't exist in the Christian Bible, he
exists in the Judaism where heis the angel of death in Jewish
and.
Ashley (41:55):
Islamic traditions Fascinating.
We're just learning so muchtoday, guys, yeah, I thought,
yeah.
Learning so much today, guysyeah I thought, yeah.
So from a fantasy buildingworld, as ridiculous as this
entire movie is, I really wasjust entertained all the way
through, just because you have Imean, obviously I didn't know
that azrael came from jewish.
You know lore, although I hadrecognized the name you know as
(42:19):
as pretty profound in thedemonic.
You know storytelling that I'veread.
I was fully entertained, youknow, with with this fantasy
building.
You know you have God, who'sreferenced as a man and a woman
or a male and a female in thisstory.
Everybody has their ownopinions.
You have a.
You have Chris Rock, and it'sit's hard to look at his
(42:42):
character and take him seriously.
He really, he really added somedepth was it his nipples?
Jonathan (42:47):
no, it was not.
That's why.
That's why he lost me.
Ashley (42:49):
That's why interesting, it wasn't alan rickman's kendall
body no, no, no, I like alanrickman.
Alan rickman can show up withpants off anytime but to have,
like a 13th apostle and you know, basically say that he was left
out because he was black.
You know what I mean.
Like, I just thought it coveredquite a lot in a short amount
(43:11):
of time and it wasn't the mostunrealistic bullshit that you've
ever heard in your life and thestory flowed nicely.
Yeah, god was a skeeballfanatic who knew.
You know Five, five for fantasy.
Jonathan (43:28):
I was entertained all day or for 120 minutes.
Mari (43:30):
What did you give it, jonathan?
Jonathan (43:32):
I give it a five.
I like this one, I like the, Ilike the idea of the, the
journey like even though, like Idon't think we got to see
anything truly groundbreaking interms of like special effects
or like we didn't go to like adifferent plane of existence, I
didn't doubt that that plane ofexistence existed, if that makes
(43:54):
sense.
Like it was seeing uh, theapostle fall from the sky.
You're like, oh, he came fromsomewhere.
I didn't even, I don't remember, I don't even think I
questioned like where the heckhe came from somewhere.
Ashley (44:07):
I don't even think I questioned where the heck he
came from.
Jonathan (44:08):
He came, he was ours, he was just there, yeah, so that
was neat.
I would have liked to have seenhad a little bit more time
spent with Janine Garofalo.
Mari (44:19):
Oh I love her.
Kelly (44:20):
Yeah, it was strange, she just had the one bit appearance
.
Mari (44:24):
Yeah, yeah.
What do you think about theworld building Kelly?
Kelly (44:29):
I think it was decent.
I gave it a four.
I think Kevin Smith blended alot of interesting elements
together.
Some of it didn't really makesense.
Some of it was kind of thatquirky.
Kevin Smith that's a funnylittle bit that he gives a
character like Azrael cominginto the house and cranking the
air conditioning down into thehouse and cranking the air
(44:53):
conditioning down, you know justlittle things like that that
make the characters kind of feelmore fleshed out.
I think that where there was alittle bit of stumbling was in
some of the story not makingreal good sense as far as things
put together.
You know the whole concept ofthe last Scion and that kind of
stuff I don't think it reallyworked very well.
But overall I think it was anit made for a good movie and I
(45:16):
think it was a good structuredworld and good elements that
blended together.
Just a few hiccups yeah, Ithink.
Mari (45:23):
I think that the world building was interesting.
I liked, um, all the differentlores being kind of brought in
and meshed together.
I thought that was well done.
I also really liked and thisisn't new to Dogma, but I always
like it in books that deal withthe idea of evil and good or
heaven and hell or whatever,this contest of wills between
(45:48):
the two sides and when there'sloopholes and legalese and like
I don't know if I'd call itpolitical intrigue as much as it
is just this, like I don't know, almost like a chess game
between the sides.
I like that aspect of it.
So for me it was a four for thewhole world building aspect of
this movie.
I thought that was, it was fun.
I like that aspect of it.
What do we think about theromance?
Ashley (46:13):
Oh man, that aspect of it.
What do we think about theromance?
Oh man, there was no romancethere was, there was quick
building, friendship andalliances.
You, you felt them mostly careabout each other, right, um,
especially jay and silent bob,like that's the best romance
you've ever seen in your entirelife.
Those guys love each other andI love that for them.
Um, but like traditionalromantic speaking, that's like a
(46:36):
one you didn't think it was uh.
Jonathan (46:41):
You didn't think that jay was trying to uh woo.
Throughout the whole movie.
The whole deal was like we'lltake you.
Ashley (46:47):
He didn't woo.
I just said there was noromance.
We'll take you there, but we'tsay he didn't woo.
I just said there was noromance.
Jonathan (46:51):
We'll take you there.
But we got a bang kind of thingyou know.
And then they made the dealright away to have a bangening.
Ashley (47:01):
I didn't think about bangening Good job.
Jonathan (47:05):
Yeah, except he gets to drive, and then I love that.
That's one of my favorite parts.
What gear are you in Now?
It wasn't a whole bunch of.
There's nothing romantic inless slapstick sexual advances
that didn't age.
Well, if that's your idea ofromance, then sure, but I'll
(47:28):
give it a two for that.
Mari (47:30):
Oh, wow.
Okay, Kelly, idea of uh romance, then sure, but I'll give it a
two for that oh, wow.
Kelly (47:32):
Okay, kelly, I think I agree with ashley.
The only real romance that wasgoing on is the jay and silent
bob bromance here here and Iguess maybe there was some kind
of a bromance between loki andbartleby.
But yeah, I think as far aslike romance goes, it was a one.
Ashley (47:51):
What does he call him His hetero life mate?
Jonathan (47:53):
Yeah.
Mari (47:56):
I think the romance for me .
I put question marks.
I think the only thing remotelyromance I got out of it was
Loki and Bartleby'sdysfunctional romance with God,
like the conversation they hadwith where I think it was,
bartleby and Bethany were havingthe conversation about their
exes and Barbie was talkingabout God like his ex, and I
(48:18):
guess what got me thinking aboutit.
Basically, loki and Bartlebyare are jilted exes of God and
God doesn't want him back, butthey're like still showing up
with the boom box and showing upat the door and stalking God at
work.
I'm like, does God need help?
Does God need a restrainingorder against these guys?
(48:39):
Because it's not healthy.
So yeah, I zero if zero is anoption.
Yeah.
Spice oh there was spice Sure.
Ashley (48:47):
Yeah, spice.
Oh, there was spice.
I don't think any of us willforget Alan Rickman in that
state.
I know I was changed after that.
I didn't even know who AlanRickman was at the time I was
young, forgive me.
There was a lot of spicy things.
(49:08):
Was it appropriate spice?
Is it all jokes that held uptoday?
Probably not.
It was entertaining.
Spice Like a two and a half.
Jonathan (49:21):
Hmm, I agree, there was spice.
We can all talk about Alan'sstrategically placed nub.
I'll talk about Alan'sstrategically placed nub.
As well as the muse's dance offthere, a little spicy dance
going on there, oh yeah.
Selma Hayek at the clinic to tohook up, because the he thought
(49:51):
it was a a much more reasonableopportunity.
The odds were ever in his favor.
The deal to to get some actioneven when even when the world
was coming to an end he wastaking off his pants.
So, yeah, I think uh it wasvery prophetic.
Yeah, I think he was ready to,ready to rock and roll, so I'm
(50:12):
going to give it like three anda half.
Three and a half.
Kelly, did you pick up anyspice vibes?
Kelly (50:17):
No, not really.
I think the best thing.
I think Ashley was pretty muchon point.
The only real thing that wasthere is, you know, the teasing
of Alan Rickman and SalmaHayek's little striptease-ish
dance.
What was your rating there,Kelly?
So a two, Mari.
Mari (50:35):
I will go with a two because of Alan Rickman and
Salma Hayek.
Like they can both get it.
Yes, a hundred percent.
Like the acting may have notbeen there for me, but I love
them both.
So, yeah, yeah, that's all I'mgoing to say about that.
I love them both.
So, yeah, yeah, that's all I'mgoing to say about that.
I'm just like the same yearthis came out, the mummy came
out, and that had such adifferent place in my heart.
(50:57):
I'm just like I can't believethese both came out at the same
time, same year.
So such a wild time.
1999 was a wild time.
Yeah, who knew?
Who knew?
The last question, the catchyou by surprise question Ash,
every time, is this a kissingmovie?
Ashley (51:17):
Is it a kissing movie?
Listen, if Jay wasn't mildly inlove with Bethany in the only
way that Jay can be, the onlyway that Jay can be, would Jay
and Silent Bob have traveledwith her on this arguably insane
quest to stop two angels fromentering a church and ending
(51:40):
humanity?
I don't know that.
The answer to that is no, andso for that reason, I think it's
Kissing Book.
Mari (51:49):
Okay.
Jonathan (51:51):
Interesting.
Ashley (51:52):
You like how I got there .
Jonathan (51:54):
Yeah, I think so For the most part, until you say
what you said.
I was going to say.
I was going to say nah, but Iwould say thinking back further,
like if we do take, if we takeJay and Silent Bob out of the
story, Bethany's dead, so theirquest and the reason they were
(52:17):
drawn to the clinic was one oflove, or lust.
Lust of some sort ofsatisfaction of their own desire
, their own wicked intent.
So I would say this, I wouldsay the story doesn't get past
the uh what's without Jay andsilent Bob, and because of their
(52:41):
quest for uh, lust, uh, I wouldsay yeah, uh, this isn't the
kissing book.
If you would ask me that 10minutes ago, though, I probably
would have said no, thanks, ash.
Ashley (52:54):
I live to serve.
Jonathan (52:57):
Kelly, what do you think?
Ashley (52:58):
Yeah, Kelly, what do you think?
Kelly (52:59):
I mean I have to say no.
It's not a kissing book,kissing movie.
The plot didn't hinge on anyromance.
Ashley (53:07):
I think Jay loved her the only way he knew how.
Mari (53:13):
I don't think he loved her at all.
I I I'm with kelly I I it was ano for me.
Um, I mean, the movie had itsvalue.
I'm not saying it's a bad movie.
I just don't think it was had aromance based element to it.
Jonathan (53:28):
Um, is this is was there a a banging?
Mari (53:34):
I mean, I guess god banged the baby into bethany said
banged a baby into bethany.
Jonathan (53:41):
So I guess, or was that like the mediterran?
Did the mediterran bang thebaby in, or did god bang the
baby in?
I?
Mari (53:47):
I don't know.
My assumption was God did itwhen she healed the wound she
had at the end.
Jonathan (53:56):
I think that's where I kind of like I maybe got a
little lost.
I thought Alan Rickman grabbedher in the stomach and was like
now.
Ashley (54:04):
Now, this is the last time, yeah.
Jonathan (54:07):
Which is interesting, because what if she didn't want
to?
Ashley (54:10):
She did, okay, yeah that was part of her.
What if she didn't?
Jonathan (54:12):
want to, she did Okay.
Yeah, that was part of herbitterness.
Ashley (54:14):
That was part of the premise of her losing the faith
Right.
Jonathan (54:16):
Oh, okay, cool.
Ashley (54:17):
You can see where he stopped paying attention.
Jonathan (54:22):
Yeah, I like me some ones.
Yeah, I like I'm not going toget his name right.
What's the actor that I like?
Ashley (54:31):
That doesn't narrow it down.
Mari (54:34):
From this movie.
Jonathan (54:36):
Yeah, Loki.
Mari (54:37):
Matt Damon.
Jonathan (54:40):
He's so cute like a little puppy dog when he's drunk
.
Ashley (54:44):
Ben Affleck.
Jonathan (54:45):
Wait, no, Matt Damon Ben Affleck snaps at the end.
Yeah, but you don't really seeloki drunk a whole bunch no,
just at the end, when he cutslinks off, and he's human oh
then my yeah, I love that formatt damon being a little puppy
dog no, he had a fun.
Ashley (55:02):
I think he had a lot of fun making this movie maybe any
final thoughts?
Jonathan (55:08):
how do we feel?
Mari (55:09):
going back to the 90s movie.
So much smoking in this movieso yeah like smoking in the
workplace, smoking on the train.
Jonathan (55:19):
I'm just like, wow, interesting how times have
changed right, it was the timelike you could go into a
restaurant and just sit down andthere were didn't make that.
I mean I bet you go on, go oneBay and buy like the McDonald's
ashtrays.
Ashley (55:34):
Probably, Kevin.
We hope you get your movie back.
Mari (55:37):
Yeah, I would absolutely watch a sequel, for sure.
It'd be interesting to see ifhe did that.
Jonathan (55:42):
What would you do if you were steering the sequel?
Ashley (55:46):
What element.
Jonathan (55:47):
Do you think it needs?
Ashley (55:48):
It's going to be hard without Alan what element do you
think it needs?
Mari (55:53):
it's going to be hard without alan.
Yeah, I think it would beinteresting if it brought in
other other religions, notnecessarily just the
christianity based ones and Iunderstand that that's what
kevin smith is familiar withbecause that's what he grew up
in.
But it would be interesting tohave other other dogmas and
other religions kind of woven ina little bit more centrally to
the plot, you know yeah, I thinkthat would be kind of cool I
(56:16):
like that idea yeah, then hewouldn't be anchored to like the
same characters, cast yeah, Imean he could.
Jonathan (56:23):
He would have to bring like jay and silent bob in, for
sure.
Yeah, I can still bring chrisrock in.
Mari (56:28):
For sure you can still bring Chris Rock in, alright?
Anything else before we wrap itup?
No, I think that covers itAlright.
So thanks for listening to OfSwords and Soulmates.
Before we go, make sure tocheck the show notes, rate,
review and subscribe to us onyour podcast app of choice.
It helps others to find us.
(56:49):
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Check us out on our website ofswords and soulmates dot com, or
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If you'd like to offer asuggestion for a future episode,
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(57:11):
Please do so if you want toread along with us as we prep
for a new episode.
Follow us on goodreads at ofswords and soulmates, or for
chapter by chapter interactionon the fable app at the of
swords and soulmates book club,and we also have a tome account
under the of swords andsoulmates name where you can
find us as well.
And last but not least, we hopeyou'll join us in two weeks for
our next episode, where we'llbe discussing brighter than
scale, swifter than flame, aqueer novella for pride month by
(57:32):
neon yang bye.
Ashley (57:35):
Thank you.
Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the
participants.
The hosts make no claim to beliterary experts and their
opinions are exactly thatopinions.
All creative works discussed orreviewed are the intellectual
property of the creators of saidstories and is being used under
the Fair Use Doctrine.
Mari (00:31):
Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast
where we read, watch and discussromanticist stories.
I'm one of your hosts, mari,and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly (00:35):
Hey everyone, it's Kelly.
We also have Ashley.
Ashley (00:37):
Hey guys, it's Ashley.
We also have Jonathan.
Jonathan (00:40):
Hey, it's JP.
What's good everyone.
Ashley (00:43):
That was mellow for you, I tried.
Mari (00:46):
Are you tired?
Jonathan (00:49):
Potentially.
Mari (00:51):
Well, today we're going to be discussing the 1999 film
Dogma, but first, as always,some news.
We've got a few things today.
First off is that Aquilapix isdoing a special edition version
of Abigail Owen's Games GodsPlay, and it's really pretty.
Ashley (01:10):
It's so pretty.
Mari (01:11):
It really is.
It's got three.
It's a three-sided digitallyprinted pages.
It's got gold-foiled dustjackets.
It's all done by the Acrylipixartist Molly.
Yeah, the pictures look reallypretty.
Ashley (01:29):
I'm so happy for her.
I know she works really hard.
Jonathan (01:33):
Oh, abigail, yes, she's sparkly.
Mari (01:37):
She's sparkly and she's hard working for sure.
Jonathan (01:42):
I'm going to make her one of those bookmark.
Don't tell her, she can knowI'm going to make like one of
those bookmark don't tell her.
Oh well, she can know I'll makeher one of those bookmark um
purses, like you know kind ofthing, and I had ordered like
this, very like gold sparklystrap, shoulder strap for her oh
, that's cute she likes.
She likes sparkly things.
She always wears those likeshiny sequin tops and stuff to
(02:03):
events.
Mari (02:04):
Is she going to be at Romana Seacon this year?
I haven't looked through allthe authors?
Ashley (02:09):
I think yes, oh good.
Mari (02:12):
That'd be good to see her again.
Okay, the other news bit I haveis that Frankenstein is getting
the MinaLima treatment, and I'mso excited for this.
I've been wanting a new specialedition Frankenstein because
the one I have is, I don't know,like 15 years old and I've read
(02:34):
it a lot and it's just fallingapart.
So MinaLima is a design duo.
It's Mirafona Mina and EduardoLima.
They're a design team and theydid all the graphic stuff.
They were famous for doing allthe graphic stuff for the Harry
Potter movies, but they doreally, really good versions of
like classic books.
(02:55):
So they've done like Alice inWonderland and Wizard of Oz,
sleeping Beauty, peter Pan, andthey take them and they're like
I don't know, they're like someof the fanciest pop-up books
I've seen.
So they're like beautifullyillustrated, but then they also
have like pop-up elements andlike things where you twist or
you turn Very interactive.
(03:16):
Yeah.
So I'm really excited to seewhat they're going to do for
Frankenstein.
So it's going to come outOctober 28th of this year.
They described it as havingillustrations, seven interactive
paper engineered elements andenthralling design details on
every page.
If you pre-order it from theirwebsite, which is in the UK, so
(03:39):
you're going to pay more.
But if you pre-order it fromthere, you get a signed version
by them.
But if you pre-order it fromthere, you get a signed version
by them and they are including aprinted image.
That's only going to beavailable if you pre-order the
book.
It's like Frankenstein'sLaboratory or whatever.
Yeah, I may have pre-ordered ittoday.
May have.
Jonathan (04:05):
I did, spoiler alert I did.
What does it add to it in termsof getting it to the US?
What does it add to the price?
Just curious.
I think the whole thing whenyou convert everything over and
when you add, I think it waslike around $50.
Mari (04:19):
That's not bad, yeah, that's not bad, especially for
what you get.
Yeah, I think the price onthere is like 30 something
pounds, um, so if you're in theuk, obviously it's cheaper.
I know that mina lima also hasseveral like interactive stores
you can go in.
There's one in scotland, one inlondon, I want to say.
There's one in new york I'm not100 sure um, one somewhere else
(04:40):
, I want to say tokyo, but I maybe wrong.
But they do have, like thesestores or like museums, slash
stores, slash art gallery, andthey.
I mean, if you're going to oneof those or if you live close to
one of those, you couldprobably get it without the
shipping costs.
I don't know if they wouldinclude that image, though, the
pre-order image.
Ashley (05:01):
I didn't know they had like other stores.
Mari (05:04):
Yes, so the London one was the first one and then Scotland
came not too long after.
I want to say I heard somethingabout New York, but I may be
imagining that.
Look on their website.
I don't want to steer anybodywrong, but I thought they had
two other ones outside of, likethe UK.
But yeah, they do reallybeautiful work.
They also have like posters andprints you can buy.
(05:26):
So if anyone is decorating anursery, they do a gaggle of
geese or a herd of horses, theydo this whole series of things
that it's a group of things andthey have these really pretty
illustrations for it.
It's really cute for a kid'sroom or nursery, I think.
Ashley (05:47):
They really are so talented.
Yeah, it's really some of themost beautiful artwork that I've
ever seen.
Mari (05:52):
Yeah, yeah, if you ever get the chance like if they're
ever at any event that you go to, if you ever get the chance to
meet them.
They're also very, very niceand very sweet.
I met them.
They were at City Walk not toolong ago, weren't they?
Yeah, they ran well, notrandomly, I guess they do come
to events and if you follow themit'll say when, but it's like
it's also I don't know, it seemslike most of the time they come
(06:14):
it's not part of any big event,it's not like part.
I'm going to go to Orlando tosee them specifically, you know
if I happen to be there, yeah,yeah, but they do really pretty,
(06:34):
really, really good work.
The last two little bits I haveis I'm on Leah Bardugo's
newsletter and she released alittle book teaser thing that
the third book in the NinthHouse series which the first one
was Ninth House, the second onewas Hellbent.
So the third one in that seriesis coming out in fall of next
(06:55):
year.
It doesn't have a title yet, itdoesn't have an exact release
date yet, but it is coming out,which is it's a good series.
It's kind of a dark academia.
I would describe it as it's gota little bit of a little bit of
magic vibes, but it's mainlydark academia.
Has anybody else read thoseother than me?
I tried.
Ashley (07:16):
I think I tried the audiobook and I just couldn't.
I don't think I got very far,but I want to.
It's on my tBR it's definitely.
Mari (07:26):
I feel like it's definitely very dark academia
like I.
You know some are good day darkacademia kind of also has like
fantasy vibes or steampunk orcrossover.
This it felt very much likesquarely in the dark academia
genre and the main character isnot my favorite and I think that
can make it a little difficulttoo.
Um, but I ended up liking thestory overall, the direction she
(07:51):
took it.
Uh, so I'm curious to see wherethe third, where the third
one's going.
I have of news is from Sen LinYu's email newsletter thing.
They released a prologue teasersnippet from yes, from
Alchemize, like it just came outtoday.
(08:14):
So it's on the little snippetson Instagram as well, but the
bigger part of the prologue ison the newsletter.
So I'm going to read thesnippet that they put on
Instagram.
Helena wondered sometimes ifshe still had eyes.
The darkness surrounding hernever ended.
She thought at first, if shewaited long enough, some glimmer
of light would appear orsomeone would come.
Yet no matter how long shewaited, there was nothing.
Ashley (08:38):
Just endless dark.
I immediately teared up.
Right now I know, I knowexactly where that is.
Mari (08:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll send you the full prologue thing
she put on the newsletter.
Yeah, so that was exciting,it's getting more and more
official.
Ashley (08:56):
Yeah yeah, that's rough.
I feel rough already.
Yeah yeah, so very much lookingforward to being destroyed
again.
Mari (09:03):
I feel rough already.
Yeah, yeah, so very muchlooking forward to being
destroyed again, I guess, bythat book.
Ashley (09:12):
Isn't that such an interesting feeling.
Like you're, just you know thatthis book is going to destroy
you and you can't wait for itstill, yeah.
Mari (09:20):
Yeah, I'm just really curious how she's going to
rework it.
Like I really want to see, seehow she she changes it, you know
, how she makes it her own.
Ashley (09:29):
That's a tall order, because it is a beloved series.
Mari (09:35):
Anybody else have any news tidbits.
Jonathan (10:00):
So just the news just kind of.
Kelly (10:01):
The story, I guess, has been bubbling for a day or two,
but just now published on a newssite that the author, Lena
MacDonald, who wrote Dark HollowAcademy apparently her new book
, Dark Hollow Academy, year twothat just dropped, had a AI
prompt in it that would indicatethat she was using ai to edit
her book.
And the ai prompt says passagerewritten to align more with jay
bree style for more tension,gritty undertones and raw
emotional subtext beneath thesupernatural elements oh no.
So that's exactly the promptyou would get if you put a oh no
(10:23):
, that's exactly the prompt youwould get if you put a bunch of
text into an AI, into OpenAI,and said rewrite this to match
it to whatever author style orrewrite this to match it with
whatever.
The book has already beenupdated on Kindle since it was
published and that passageremoved.
But there's already a lot ofbacklash, as you can imagine.
Ashley (10:44):
How crazy.
Kelly (10:46):
Yeah, so McDonald who publishes under the name I guess
Sienna Patterson Interesting.
Jonathan (10:51):
It's getting like Kelly coming with the tea today,
hand in the cookie jar.
Kelly (10:55):
So this this is becoming a problem in academia, which is
where I've been kind of seeingit.
Is that, which is where I'vebeen kind of seeing it?
(11:19):
Is that some of the stuff I do?
Jonathan (11:19):
tangentially.
That's related to academia.
We've all had to signagreements saying that we will
not use AI to do any of thiswork for creating test banks.
What does it get you Like?
Are you like?
Does it get you like?
Is this people trying to getthe grades up?
Is that what's happening?
Kelly (11:28):
I mean, I don't know why people are using it in academia,
I guess to help them writepapers.
Mari (11:32):
Yeah.
Kelly (11:34):
I mean that would be the obvious thing.
I mean there's been people, youthere's been, you know, no
shortage of people willing totake money to write papers for
people since you know, sinceacademia existed.
Jonathan (11:46):
But AI now makes it so much easier, and so it's
becoming a pretty big problem inacademia I heard somewhere that
, like, teachers are just likenow, they're just like yeah, I
mean like it doesn't make senseto to fight it, so instead we'll
just use it, but in a differenthey, come write this paper and
(12:06):
now let's let's edit it togetherand make that the test, rather
than making the actual writingof the paper the test and just
be like we figure you allprobably used AI at some point,
but now let's go back andcorrect AI, because AI is not
perfect.
Kelly (12:23):
Well, the problem is is an author passing an ai piece of
work off as their own?
Jonathan (12:28):
right yeah it it.
This goes from like artistryinto it.
It twists the use of it as atool into the artistic
representation does that?
Make.
Does that make sense, like it's?
Mari (12:42):
yeah, yeah, you're putting it out there as if you're
putting the same level ofcreative spark into it as
someone yeah, creative spark andeffort.
Jonathan (12:49):
As someone who you know birthed a novel wholesale
yeah, no no, exactly, exactly,it's um, like I find it
difficult to believe that mostauthors, especially those who
are balling on a budget, likedoing e-publish stuff that
they're not using tools to edit.
Kelly (13:09):
Well, there's a difference between.
There's a difference betweenusing grammarly to edit your
grammar and spelling checks anda difference between using AI to
say, eh, I don't like this,Rewrite this and make it better.
But put it in the style of DrSeuss or I don't know where, I
don't know what to do next, whatshould these characters do next
?
Or you know whatever.
I think that's where theproblem is.
Mari (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, well, and then add to that the problem that a
lot of these AIs have beentrained by using artists' work
without their permission, right,so it's like theft upon theft.
Jonathan (13:42):
Well, that's a gray area.
I don't think you'd call it.
I think we call it theftbecause we think of it as like a
machine, but we're all inspiredby other people.
Kelly (13:49):
There's a difference between being inspired and using
a machine that compresses allof everything that everyone's
ever written and distilled itdown.
It's the copy and paste for me,yeah.
Ashley (14:00):
Like, do better at that point, just you know, spin it,
be creative.
Like, do better at that point,just you know, spin it, be
creative.
You know I get there's aburnout point in the process and
that can be stressful.
Jonathan (14:14):
But to be like word for word for something like that
is pretty wild yeah if you wantto get even with um ai, the way
to do that is to be polite toAI.
It costs them.
I forget what the cost is, butthe more people thank AI and are
just like, very polite andcordial, the more they tell you
to just be short and clippedwith AI because it costs them so
(14:36):
much money for AI to say thankyou, to reply to your kindness.
Kelly (14:41):
So if you want to get them where it hurts in the
pocketbook- there's a reasonthere's no good science fiction
book where ai is a positiveexactly I mean we've, we've all
been using ai for decades now.
Ashley (14:53):
We just didn't know it kelly coming in hot with the tea
.
Kelly (14:57):
Good job, kelly the thing I wonder about is, if this one
person is caught, how manyauthors are using it and haven't
gotten caught?
Mari (15:08):
We've talked about before, how many authors are having
mental health breakdowns andthings trying to keep up with
what they think is the industrystandard, when really it's
people not actually writingbooks, it's AI.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, you have people that canchurn out a bunch of books a
year and then you have peoplewho are like stressing
themselves out to try andcompete with unrealistic
(15:32):
industry standard and I put thatin in air quotes, you know I
think I heard somewhere thatthey have to write like in order
to be a successful andprofitable author, you have to
have like something like 40books in in print somewhere in
order to live off of that stuff.
Jonathan (15:47):
Can you like the stress of getting one out?
Right, I can't imagine writingone it's hard enough to read one
for me, right?
So it's like dang you know,like and and how do you?
I, I did hear that a lot, of alot of times, like we were at
some of those panels, I thinklast year, when authors were
(16:08):
saying things like they stopreading while they're writing so
that they're not accidentallyinfluenced, right, I can't
imagine doing that because, likethere are times where, like
I'll have an idea for somethingand I'll be like this is the
greatest thing since slicedbread, and then google it and
you're like it's yeah, that'sbeen out for I mean there's
(16:28):
always going to be.
Kelly (16:29):
There's always going to be creative yahtzee.
I mean that's just a part ofthe creative process where you
think of something that's anoriginal thought for you, but
somebody's already done it ordone something similar to it and
just because somebody's donesomething similar doesn't mean
that what you're doing isn'tworthwhile.
Mari (16:44):
Like, how many versions of Pride and Prejudice and
retellings of Pride andPrejudice exist in the world
right now?
Like, I don't know, I probablyhave 20 in our house.
You know, like there's justsome things, are some ideas, and
some things are worth repeatingfor the learning process and
(17:05):
for putting your own spin on it,and I think that's something
that carries over from differentkinds of creative pursuits,
like visual artists.
You know, back in the day,painting, you would have the
people who were learning People.
I didn't go to art school, butmy understanding is a lot of
times when you're learning inart school, you do copy the
masters.
(17:25):
You learn how to try andrecreate the different masters
in the different works and alsolike, oh, try and draw this in
Picasso style, try and draw thisin Van Gogh style to stretch
your creative muscles.
So there's something to be saidfor using what exists before
you to create something new, butI think that human element is
(17:48):
still necessary to make it good.
Jonathan (17:52):
What was that movie with Robin Williams where he was
like a robot and thenprogressively as the movie went
on?
Ashley (17:59):
Bicentennial man.
Jonathan (18:00):
Antonio Manz, that's it.
He became more and more untilhe actually was a human.
It's just.
It's interesting what a worldwe live in, that if you would
have asked me when I was a kid,like what, I would have been
like yeah, we're gonna haveflying cars, not, we're gonna
(18:21):
have.
We're gonna be talking aboutthe danger of slipping back into
the dark ages, but also havethis very powerful, everything I
own is connected to theinternet kind of situation that
we're living in.
It's just wild.
Mari (18:35):
Agreed, agreed.
Any other news?
I?
Jonathan (18:40):
walk around with a supercomputer in my pocket all
day.
Ashley (18:43):
Yeah, did you guys see that the app updated?
For what is it called guidebook?
Guidebook, yeah, for yeah formenace econ.
Mari (18:52):
Yes, so you can download.
You download the guide book appand you can download and see,
like, the schedule of things,although I I think it'll be like
last year where they're stillkind of finalizing it and we'll
be tweaking things because itwon't be till I I believe August
1st is when you can actuallysign up for things Like sign up
for panels and tickets andwhatnot.
So I believe there'll bechanges up until then.
(19:14):
But, yeah, you can look and seewho the ticketed authors are,
more or less the panels and themap of the hotel, like where
things are going to be laid out,and you can filter out the
things that are available foryou to do based off the ticket
level that you bought, and youcan like contact people and
(19:37):
friend them.
Yeah, it's a good little app.
So if anyone's thinking ofgoing, I would absolutely
download that app and getfamiliar with it before August
1st.
If you're wanting to try andget into anything, yeah for sure
(19:59):
.
I don't think as as this year,but I know last year there was
one or two panels that I hadwanted to go into that were full
on the app and yet when thepanel was like had started or
right before starting.
They last minute let people inbecause there was enough space.
So people who had maybe gottentickets for it or whatever ended
up not going.
(20:20):
So there were empty spotsavailable for it.
So just because you may not getinto a panel, this is different
from a ticketed author signingsituation.
But if there's a panel you wantto go to and you're not able to
get into it and it's one youreally, really want to go to, I
would still go and like stand inline and after they let
everybody in, if they're stillletting other people in, you
might be able to get in.
(20:40):
It's not guaranteed, you know.
Good pro tip.
Any other news tidbits?
Ashley (20:46):
nope, that's all I got all right.
Mari (20:49):
So we watched dogma as our story that we're going to be
talking about um this episode,I'm going to read the synopsis
and then we can get into ourtalk about it.
So this is from imdb.
Two fallen angels who wereejected from paradise find
themselves banned in Wisconsin.
They're now headed for NewJersey where they find a
(21:11):
loophole that can get them backinto heaven.
The only catch is that it willdestroy humanity.
A group bands together to stopthem.
That's the synopsis.
That's the imdb synopsis.
What I mean?
Technically it's true.
Ashley (21:27):
Yeah no, I just there's so much, there's so much more to
that story.
Mari (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't find any sort of like official
synopsis, official blurbs.
There's like a long plotsynopsis you could find like the
whole breakdown of the movie,but I'm no, nobody needs to be
reading all that.
Ashley (21:46):
That's so interesting yeah.
Mari (21:48):
Yeah, I don't think I had watched this movie since like
probably when it first came outor very close to when it first
came out since the nineties.
For sure it's the last time Iwatched this movie, but I
watched it again last night forthe first time in 20 something
years last night.
Jonathan (22:08):
Uh, for the first time in 20 something years we've
definitely watched it in thepast decade, but it had been
long enough that we were like we.
First thing we did was look forit to stream, and then we were
not available anywhere yeah, sothen.
But then we were like we, weknew we owned it.
So I had to like find the d DVDfolder that I had.
Like we was stuffed in a cornersomewhere.
And I was like, oh, I got it,yeah, I have it right here.
(22:29):
And then I walked out to theliving room and I was like, oh,
where am I going to put it in?
So I was like, do we have to gobuy a DVD player?
We might as well just streamthis thing anyway.
And then I lifted up with oneof the coffee tables that lifts
up, and inside there is where Ikeep the projector.
And um, and underneath that,apparently what I used
(22:50):
previously to hold the projectorat the correct height was the
DVD player.
So so I was like, let me get myprojector riser box out.
And I got that out and I waslike, oh, I got to plug this in,
plug it in.
I was like, got that out and Iwas like, oh, I gotta plug this
in, plug it in.
I was like I, I would the nextfear was do I have a remote to
operate this tvd player?
Thankfully, I did such a goodjob that everything was where it
(23:12):
was supposed to be and we wereable to watch it nice.
Mari (23:16):
Now do you guys know why it's not streaming anywhere?
Ashley (23:19):
fucking harvey weinstein , yep really.
You don't know this story.
I don't know this.
Jonathan (23:24):
No, tell me this story .
Wow, I've impressed.
Ashley (23:29):
Kelly.
Kelly (23:31):
No, no, go ahead, mari.
Mari (23:33):
Me Okay, so I didn't research it fully, for I figured
somebody else would know, buthere's what I know about it.
So Weinstein owns the rights toit.
So Weinstein owns the rights toit.
And Weinstein approached KevinSmith, the director and writer,
(23:56):
and soundbob approached him todo a sequel, and I think this is
my understanding and they werelike no, and then that's
apparently right around the timewhere everything was coming out
about Weinstein and I don'tknow if he was actually
approaching for this.
I don't know if there'ssomething beef between Smith and
Weinstein, but Kevin Smith sayssomething about like he thought
that this was about the timethat Weinstein was trying to
figure out who was ratting onhim.
Basically, weinstein pulled itfor everybody that you know
(24:17):
they're not.
You're never gonna make asequel, you're never gonna get
any money from it.
It's never, never going to bestreaming anywhere.
Yeah, weinstein basically hadthe rights to this, has had.
I don't know what the legalsituation is now, but they had
the rights to it, which is whyit's not streaming anywhere.
So if you don't have thephysical media for this, you're
not watching it.
Wow.
Jonathan (24:35):
Wow, I was surprised.
Mari (24:37):
And added layer to that, the Weinstein thing.
We're not going to get intohere, but it's horrendous sexual
assaults, abuse of powersituations, the I forget her
name the main actress who playedBethany in this movie.
Her name is.
Ashley (24:53):
Linda.
Mari (24:54):
Fiorentino.
Yeah, fiorentino, like at thetime she was basically not
blacklisted but she was liketalked about as being very
difficult to work with, listed,but she was like talked about as
being very difficult to workwith um, which is apparently a
an mo that weinstein didwhenever someone didn't go along
with what he wanted them to do.
Um, he would like um defamethem for being a difficult,
(25:16):
usually actress to be with ifthey wouldn't do whatever he
wanted them to do sexually.
And so, yeah, apparently hercareer suffered for that, to the
point where, after Kevin Smithhad his heart attack and
Fiorentino, like I don't know,she sent him flowers or
something I don't know shereached out to him.
He like did some sort of apublic apology for the way she
(25:37):
was treated during that time,because so she was treated that
way and the movie posters, theofficial movie posters for Dogma
or some of the official moviestuff that got released for
Dogma, the pictures and alldidn't use her body, it used a
bustier version, another actresswith bigger boobs, and they put
her head on it.
Yeah, and she was like that isnot cool.
(25:58):
I did not get permission forthat, right, this was the 90s,
nobody cared and she was justlabeled as this difficult
actress and it affected the restof her career for it.
Right, this was the 90s, nobodycared.
And she was just labeled asthis difficult actress and it
affected the rest of her careerfor it.
Wow yeah.
Kelly (26:10):
So the good news is that on his podcast a few months ago,
Kevin Smith said that he hasgot Dogma out from underneath
Harvey Weinstein's productioncompany.
Mari (26:20):
Good.
Kelly (26:21):
So it is out of that company now and it's in a new
company and now he's trying tofigure out, go through the legal
hoops to be able to finallyrelease it.
Ashley (26:31):
So so that must be why he's able to release it in the
theaters right for theanniversary right um, so I heard
basically the same interview,marie, that I think you probably
saw if I didn't already send itto you guys.
I had seen basically the samething that you know Kevin would
reach out to Harvey Weinstein'speople every you know five, 10
(26:53):
years and be like, hey, there'sthis anniversary, we should do
something.
And he'd never hear back.
And then, right before the bignews story dropped outing
Weinstein, he did call Kevin andlike, pretend, allegedly
pretended that he wanted to doan anniversary thing for dogma,
and the feedback that Kevin gotafter that was that Harvey was
(27:15):
like feeling him out to see ifhe was part of the like quote
leak is what I remember, um, andthat you know, weinstein was
basically like yanking his chain.
He was never gonna, you know,do anything for dogma, he was
just trying to save his own asswell, that sucks yeah, it's a
(27:35):
wild story.
Mari (27:36):
Yeah, another layer that I thought was interesting that I
learned not 100 related to that,but when I was looking the
stuff up about Linda Ferentino,apparently she wasn't the first
pick of who Kevin Smith wantedfor this.
They wanted Gillian AndersonScully from the X-Files to play
that role.
Ashley (27:54):
I can see that.
I can see that for them.
Mari (27:57):
I love her so much I literally have her tattooed on
my bicep.
Jonathan (28:03):
I was going to say I'm pretty sure I thought I was
gonna say I thought there wasmaybe some artwork there yes, I
met her.
Mari (28:10):
She's amazing.
I love her.
Ashley (28:12):
Yeah, she's also like teeny, teeny tiny sure, well,
and I can see like they'respoofing things right yes, I can
see how and why they would wanther for that role.
That fits.
Mari (28:25):
Right, especi ally, you think, the 90s, when X-Files was
still hot and that thecharacter Scully was this you
know lapsed faithful person,occasionally lapsed, occasiona
lly faithful, and yet a skepticwhen it came to the Mulder stuff
.
Like it would have been areally interesting crossover,
but apparently Jillian hated thescript so she said no.
(28:48):
Thank you, jillian.
Well, no.
All that being said, what didwe think of of the movie?
Ashley (28:56):
overall rating Do you want me to go first?
This was a five for me and Idon't have any logic behind it.
I love this movie.
I used to know it, line by line, probably.
I mean watching it.
This is the first time we'vewatched it as an adult, right,
because 10 years ago I was notan adult.
But I mean in the level.
At the level, just becausegenetically the united states
(29:19):
says I was adult does not meanmentally or emotionally I was um
, yeah, the.
The level at which I had thismovie memorized as a teenager is
probably unhealthy.
I mean, in 1999, I would havebeen 12.
So 13, 14, 15, I had this moviememorized.
My parents should have beenwatching a lot closer.
All of that to say it was justit was.
(29:42):
It was a hysterical movie to meand I think it gives you all.
I think you laugh.
I think there are probably ahandful of things that didn't
age well, but that tracks forthe 90s, right, and I was
thoroughly entertainedre-watching this movie.
I would watch it again.
Jonathan (30:03):
I love this movie.
You love this movie, wouldwatch it again.
Ashley (30:05):
I love this movie you love this movie.
Jonathan (30:07):
Yeah, I like that.
It challenges.
It challenges the, the statusquo.
What was my childhood?
So the moment I got to sit downand watch this movie, um, I was
like, yeah, I've been tellingy'all about, like, how dumb this
stuff is it validated you yeah,it validated me.
(30:28):
I thought it was great, Ithought it was like it showed,
like you know what was the card.
It was a cardinal, cardinalglick or whatever.
Uh, he was uh george yeah, itwas like.
Yeah, that was like monsignoryou know I won't drop his name,
but he was just like, yeah, likethat's the.
It's exactly the way I envisionthese people being, like maybe
(30:54):
they they worship, but they werelike let's make a buck.
So I it was validating whenthat film came out for me and I
appreciate it.
Five stars.
Mari (31:10):
What do you think, Kelly?
Kelly (31:10):
This is probably Kevin Smith's best movie.
Think, overall, this movie hadeverything going right for it.
It had good comedic timing, ithad a good script, it had a
funny concept.
Everything seemed to work forit.
So I would really have to saythat this is like a four and a
half.
It's probably one of the bestmovies to sort of poke fun at
(31:33):
Catholicism without going overthe line of being like insulting
.
I think the only movie thatmaybe does it slightly better
would be the 80s movie HeavenHelp Us, which is a little bit
more about growing up in like aCatholic school.
So it's a little bit pokes, alittle bit more fun of
Catholicism from that direction.
(31:54):
And Heaven Help Us, of course,is a classic because it had a.
It was like the film debut of alot of young actors who would
become more prominent later.
So you had, like young AndrewMcCarthy, young Kevin Dillon,
young Patrick Dempsey, you hadan appearance by Wallace Shawn,
you had Donald Sutherland as aguest appearance.
(32:15):
So it was a lot of big names, alot of actors who would go on
to become big names.
Mari (32:21):
Nice, okay For me.
I didn't think it was as goodas I remembered it being.
I don't know if I built it upin my head because I remember
liking it.
I remember thinking it had somereally interesting, cool,
thought-provoking things.
I also remember, um, it beingthis big like act of rebellion
(32:42):
to watch it, because it was I.
I was detransitioning out ofthe Catholic church stuff kind
of around that time and like itwas this whole like oh, don't
watch this, you know it's a badmovie, or whatever.
So then when I rewatched itlast night I was like for me it
wasn't as funny as I remembered,it wasn't as edgy as I
remembered.
I wasn't impressed with theacting, like even people I knew
(33:06):
are good actors, like AlanRickman, love, love, love.
And I was just like even AlanRickman's performance was not
doing it for me.
So I don't know if it's becauseI built it up in my head, I
don't know.
For me it was a three.
It was just not as good as Iremembered it being.
Ashley (33:24):
It was fine I would like to state for the record I
didn't say that this was amazing, acting right there was no
oscar performances here, no, no,no, I mean alan rickman was
doing his best he was, he reallydid.
He put us all in there and hedidn't have to, and everybody
should appreciate that all forthe more.
Mari (33:46):
Did you guys see the thing ?
That was it Jay.
The guy who plays Jay was likeput all this hardcore effort
into memorizing lines andeverything because he didn't
want to disappoint Alan Rickmanin this movie.
Kelly (33:57):
He did not, yeah he was like hardcore.
Mari (33:59):
He memorized other people's lines, everything.
He didn't want to disappointAlan Rickman Stop it.
Ashley (34:05):
That makes me love him more.
Mari (34:06):
Yeah.
Ashley (34:07):
Yeah.
Kelly (34:08):
The thing, about this movie.
I mean there's a lot of thingsabout this movie that don't
really age well, just becausethere's a lot of jokes that are
in the moment of the 90s.
Yeah, you know, there's a lotof things that wouldn't work now
.
You know, everybody has a cellphone now.
That wasn't the case when thismovie was made.
You know, things like that.
Um, there was someself-referential,
(34:30):
self-referential culture humor,like um, matt damon's, you know,
singing the martin theme song.
Yeah, like if you are notsomeone who grew up in this time
period or watched that show orknew about that show, that would
be completely lost on you.
Jonathan (34:49):
Yeah, do you remember when Dogma was released, the
story when Kevin Smith protestedagainst his own movie?
Kelly (34:59):
Yeah, that was funny.
Jonathan (35:00):
And it was cute.
Ashley (35:02):
Yeah, isn't that how Jay and silent bob came to be like
strike back?
Kelly (35:06):
yeah, that was kind of.
That was kind of the plot linefor that movie this entire plot
line for that movie when he butI didn't know it was an actual
protest right, oh he was.
Yeah, he was, I guess wasdebuting and like yeah, there
was a group of protesterscatholic protesters and so he
went and made his own sign andjoined them.
I think he even got interviewed.
(35:27):
Yeah, I think that's what Iheard.
Jonathan (35:30):
They were like we think we know this guy, let's
interview him I love this.
Ashley (35:37):
If I knew about it, I forgot it.
Jonathan (35:38):
That makes it better.
Ashley (35:40):
Because then it created Jay and Silent Bob, strike Back,
or Jay and Bob.
Yeah, that's what.
It is right, strike Back,that's the first one.
Kelly (35:46):
But there's just so many things about this movie that are
just hilarious concepts theBuddy Christ that just that very
concept itself is hilarious.
Mari (35:55):
Yeah, rebranding yeah.
Jonathan (35:59):
Yeah, the Catholicism, wow yeah.
Kelly (36:02):
I mean honestly, is a catholicism, wow?
Jonathan (36:03):
yeah, I mean honestly, I'm surprised the catholic
church hasn't tried that yeah Imean they were probably like
that bastard stole it's a good,it is a solid idea try.
Ashley (36:16):
We don't want to get sued by kevin smith.
And then they tried to off himright by giving him all the
carbs and the fatty foods, andhe's like fucking sticking
around good times.
Jonathan (36:25):
Good time.
No, I thought I thought it was.
Yeah, I did think that was agreat concept.
As I was watching I was likeyou know, makes a whole bunch of
sense, you know rebranding yeah, and they don't have a lot.
They don't have a lot of coolbrand work going for them.
They got the lowercase letter tand uh, that guy the one guy
yeah, they got that, they gotall those holidays, so that's
(36:47):
going good.
So, yeah, they could use arebrand.
Mari (36:49):
They did rebrand all those holidays from other cultures,
didn't they?
They're good at rebranding.
Jonathan (36:56):
I mean this could be a good move for Pope Bob.
He's young, fresh right out ofthe Chi-town.
Could he can make it happen forhim?
um, we got hopes for you, bobyeah, pope leo, if you're out
there listening, we're all for.
I think kelly's for the buddychrist I would probably I'm not
gonna lie, I'm not real deep ingoing to church myself.
(37:19):
But uh, pope leo, if you hearthis and you want to get me to
show up at church, I challengeyou to come up with like Buddy
Christ equivalent and re-invokethe Catholicism wild campaign
and I'll show up.
Ashley (37:34):
For funsies I'd show up For the t-shirt.
Kelly (37:37):
There are a lot of interesting things in this movie
too that are still true, I mean, essentially it's.
It's kind of hilarious in a waythat one part of the movie was
the, the company mooby that washad all the characters in the
restaurants and was essentiallya stand-in for disney right,
yeah yeah, and this movie wasowned essentially by disney yeah
(37:57):
that was.
Jonathan (37:57):
It was.
That was a pretty great flexand like uh, that's, I think
that's the hat that um silentbob is wearing movie movie the
cow.
Kelly (38:05):
Yeah, and it's.
And it's an interesting youknow point that you know Kevin
Smith made with humor, is thatyou know, idolatry through
consumerism.
Mari (38:18):
Yeah, also, the concept that you, you can.
You can like a thing and youstill can criticize it and make
fun of it, and you ought to beable to, because I believe I
thought I read that he wasChristian, at least at the time
of making this movie.
I don't know if he was Catholic, but he was Christian at least
at the time of making this movie.
So the idea that you cansubscribe to this thought
(38:40):
pattern and still be able toquestion and talk about it and
it not be this whole like youmust think exactly the way these
people say, otherwise you are,you know, bad or whatever yeah,
yeah, exactly as someone who gotin a lot of trouble in uh
catholic school, I these, theseideas and these concepts would
(39:01):
have had you sitting right nextto me oh yeah in detention so if
not expelled, yesyeah, exactly yes, yeah, yeah,
enough about that, uh, fantasyworld building you know, I like
it.
Jonathan (39:18):
The they were, I think it was.
It's so layered and intertwined, I mean all these worlds sort
of run together.
The whole premise is that theywere chasing after.
What are they trying to do?
They're trying to find uh.
They're trying to get all thegood, all the good weed in the
uh.
Or they're trying to sell weedto uh.
(39:41):
Was it the town like where theBrat Pack was from?
Right, when where all the thebrat pack movies were set I
think jay and silent bob, theirsetup, their shtick, really
carries a majority of of kevin'sfilms oh, for sure yeah, I love
the integration too.
Ashley (39:59):
You know it was fairly catholic based in the, you know,
in the discussion of religion,but how they branch off into
actual mythology, right.
So they bring up serendipity.
Who's amused?
Is that in the bible?
Mari (40:15):
I don't believe.
So I wrote down the same thingwhen I was like, yeah, they did
like christian mythology mixedwith like greek mythology right,
mixed with, I I think and ifsomeone knows better, please
correct me if I'm wrong but Ithink the Jewish mysticism,
because I think golems come fromlike Jewish mythology Ooh, good
catch and like the golemmonster thing I think it was
(40:36):
supposed to be a golem, it was amix of that.
Kelly (40:39):
So the muses Dante kind of, is the one who kind of
pulled the muses intoChristianity in a way, oh,
basically expressing that theGreek and Roman Muses, the
concept of the Muses, wereDivine inspiration, right
Allegory, you know, kind of likethey were talent given by God.
Mari (41:03):
Let's take that idea and adopt that too.
Right, we took Easterter, wetook christmas.
Let's.
Kelly (41:09):
Let's take that idea too dante did a lot of like in his
work where he had likeinvocations to the muses as
being, you know, god's divineinspiration interesting.
Ashley (41:21):
That's very interesting because I'd also never heard of
azrael being a muse.
Is that in a mythology, kelly?
Do you know?
Is that in your bank?
Kelly (41:29):
what do you mean as?
Azrael as a muse, like thedemon azrael, because he was he
he claimed to be.
Ashley (41:37):
He never appears.
That's why he didn't fight inthe war.
Right azrael was never in theChristian Bible.
Kelly (41:42):
So Asriel doesn't exist in the Christian Bible, he
exists in the Judaism where heis the angel of death in Jewish
and.
Ashley (41:55):
Islamic traditions Fascinating.
We're just learning so muchtoday, guys, yeah, I thought,
yeah.
Learning so much today, guysyeah I thought, yeah.
So from a fantasy buildingworld, as ridiculous as this
entire movie is, I really wasjust entertained all the way
through, just because you have Imean, obviously I didn't know
that azrael came from jewish.
You know lore, although I hadrecognized the name you know as
(42:19):
as pretty profound in thedemonic.
You know storytelling that I'veread.
I was fully entertained, youknow, with with this fantasy
building.
You know you have God, who'sreferenced as a man and a woman
or a male and a female in thisstory.
Everybody has their ownopinions.
You have a.
You have Chris Rock, and it'sit's hard to look at his
(42:42):
character and take him seriously.
He really, he really added somedepth was it his nipples?
Jonathan (42:47):
no, it was not.
That's why.
That's why he lost me.
Ashley (42:49):
That's why interesting, it wasn't alan rickman's kendall
body no, no, no, I like alanrickman.
Alan rickman can show up withpants off anytime but to have,
like a 13th apostle and you know, basically say that he was left
out because he was black.
You know what I mean.
Like, I just thought it coveredquite a lot in a short amount
(43:11):
of time and it wasn't the mostunrealistic bullshit that you've
ever heard in your life and thestory flowed nicely.
Yeah, god was a skeeballfanatic who knew.
You know Five, five for fantasy.
Jonathan (43:28):
I was entertained all day or for 120 minutes.
Mari (43:30):
What did you give it, jonathan?
Jonathan (43:32):
I give it a five.
I like this one, I like the, Ilike the idea of the, the
journey like even though, like Idon't think we got to see
anything truly groundbreaking interms of like special effects
or like we didn't go to like adifferent plane of existence, I
didn't doubt that that plane ofexistence existed, if that makes
(43:54):
sense.
Like it was seeing uh, theapostle fall from the sky.
You're like, oh, he came fromsomewhere.
I didn't even, I don't remember, I don't even think I
questioned like where the heckhe came from somewhere.
Ashley (44:07):
I don't even think I questioned where the heck he
came from.
Jonathan (44:08):
He came, he was ours, he was just there, yeah, so that
was neat.
I would have liked to have seenhad a little bit more time
spent with Janine Garofalo.
Mari (44:19):
Oh I love her.
Kelly (44:20):
Yeah, it was strange, she just had the one bit appearance
.
Mari (44:24):
Yeah, yeah.
What do you think about theworld building Kelly?
Kelly (44:29):
I think it was decent.
I gave it a four.
I think Kevin Smith blended alot of interesting elements
together.
Some of it didn't really makesense.
Some of it was kind of thatquirky.
Kevin Smith that's a funnylittle bit that he gives a
character like Azrael cominginto the house and cranking the
air conditioning down into thehouse and cranking the air
(44:53):
conditioning down, you know justlittle things like that that
make the characters kind of feelmore fleshed out.
I think that where there was alittle bit of stumbling was in
some of the story not makingreal good sense as far as things
put together.
You know the whole concept ofthe last Scion and that kind of
stuff I don't think it reallyworked very well.
But overall I think it was anit made for a good movie and I
(45:16):
think it was a good structuredworld and good elements that
blended together.
Just a few hiccups yeah, Ithink.
Mari (45:23):
I think that the world building was interesting.
I liked, um, all the differentlores being kind of brought in
and meshed together.
I thought that was well done.
I also really liked and thisisn't new to Dogma, but I always
like it in books that deal withthe idea of evil and good or
heaven and hell or whatever,this contest of wills between
(45:48):
the two sides and when there'sloopholes and legalese and like
I don't know if I'd call itpolitical intrigue as much as it
is just this, like I don't know, almost like a chess game
between the sides.
I like that aspect of it.
So for me it was a four for thewhole world building aspect of
this movie.
I thought that was, it was fun.
I like that aspect of it.
What do we think about theromance?
Ashley (46:13):
Oh man, that aspect of it.
What do we think about theromance?
Oh man, there was no romancethere was, there was quick
building, friendship andalliances.
You, you felt them mostly careabout each other, right, um,
especially jay and silent bob,like that's the best romance
you've ever seen in your entirelife.
Those guys love each other andI love that for them.
Um, but like traditionalromantic speaking, that's like a
(46:36):
one you didn't think it was uh.
Jonathan (46:41):
You didn't think that jay was trying to uh woo.
Throughout the whole movie.
The whole deal was like we'lltake you.
Ashley (46:47):
He didn't woo.
I just said there was noromance.
We'll take you there, but we'tsay he didn't woo.
I just said there was noromance.
Jonathan (46:51):
We'll take you there.
But we got a bang kind of thingyou know.
And then they made the dealright away to have a bangening.
Ashley (47:01):
I didn't think about bangening Good job.
Jonathan (47:05):
Yeah, except he gets to drive, and then I love that.
That's one of my favorite parts.
What gear are you in Now?
It wasn't a whole bunch of.
There's nothing romantic inless slapstick sexual advances
that didn't age.
Well, if that's your idea ofromance, then sure, but I'll
(47:28):
give it a two for that.
Mari (47:30):
Oh, wow.
Okay, Kelly, idea of uh romance, then sure, but I'll give it a
two for that oh, wow.
Kelly (47:32):
Okay, kelly, I think I agree with ashley.
The only real romance that wasgoing on is the jay and silent
bob bromance here here and Iguess maybe there was some kind
of a bromance between loki andbartleby.
But yeah, I think as far aslike romance goes, it was a one.
Ashley (47:51):
What does he call him His hetero life mate?
Jonathan (47:53):
Yeah.
Mari (47:56):
I think the romance for me .
I put question marks.
I think the only thing remotelyromance I got out of it was
Loki and Bartleby'sdysfunctional romance with God,
like the conversation they hadwith where I think it was,
bartleby and Bethany were havingthe conversation about their
exes and Barbie was talkingabout God like his ex, and I
(48:18):
guess what got me thinking aboutit.
Basically, loki and Bartlebyare are jilted exes of God and
God doesn't want him back, butthey're like still showing up
with the boom box and showing upat the door and stalking God at
work.
I'm like, does God need help?
Does God need a restrainingorder against these guys?
(48:39):
Because it's not healthy.
So yeah, I zero if zero is anoption.
Yeah.
Spice oh there was spice Sure.
Ashley (48:47):
Yeah, spice.
Oh, there was spice.
I don't think any of us willforget Alan Rickman in that
state.
I know I was changed after that.
I didn't even know who AlanRickman was at the time I was
young, forgive me.
There was a lot of spicy things.
(49:08):
Was it appropriate spice?
Is it all jokes that held uptoday?
Probably not.
It was entertaining.
Spice Like a two and a half.
Jonathan (49:21):
Hmm, I agree, there was spice.
We can all talk about Alan'sstrategically placed nub.
I'll talk about Alan'sstrategically placed nub.
As well as the muse's dance offthere, a little spicy dance
going on there, oh yeah.
Selma Hayek at the clinic to tohook up, because the he thought
(49:51):
it was a a much more reasonableopportunity.
The odds were ever in his favor.
The deal to to get some actioneven when even when the world
was coming to an end he wastaking off his pants.
So, yeah, I think uh it wasvery prophetic.
Yeah, I think he was ready to,ready to rock and roll, so I'm
(50:12):
going to give it like three anda half.
Three and a half.
Kelly, did you pick up anyspice vibes?
Kelly (50:17):
No, not really.
I think the best thing.
I think Ashley was pretty muchon point.
The only real thing that wasthere is, you know, the teasing
of Alan Rickman and SalmaHayek's little striptease-ish
dance.
What was your rating there,Kelly?
So a two, Mari.
Mari (50:35):
I will go with a two because of Alan Rickman and
Salma Hayek.
Like they can both get it.
Yes, a hundred percent.
Like the acting may have notbeen there for me, but I love
them both.
So, yeah, yeah, that's all I'mgoing to say about that.
I love them both.
So, yeah, yeah, that's all I'mgoing to say about that.
I'm just like the same yearthis came out, the mummy came
out, and that had such adifferent place in my heart.
(50:57):
I'm just like I can't believethese both came out at the same
time, same year.
So such a wild time.
1999 was a wild time.
Yeah, who knew?
Who knew?
The last question, the catchyou by surprise question Ash,
every time, is this a kissingmovie?
Ashley (51:17):
Is it a kissing movie?
Listen, if Jay wasn't mildly inlove with Bethany in the only
way that Jay can be, the onlyway that Jay can be, would Jay
and Silent Bob have traveledwith her on this arguably insane
quest to stop two angels fromentering a church and ending
(51:40):
humanity?
I don't know that.
The answer to that is no, andso for that reason, I think it's
Kissing Book.
Mari (51:49):
Okay.
Jonathan (51:51):
Interesting.
Ashley (51:52):
You like how I got there .
Jonathan (51:54):
Yeah, I think so For the most part, until you say
what you said.
I was going to say.
I was going to say nah, but Iwould say thinking back further,
like if we do take, if we takeJay and Silent Bob out of the
story, Bethany's dead, so theirquest and the reason they were
(52:17):
drawn to the clinic was one oflove, or lust.
Lust of some sort ofsatisfaction of their own desire
, their own wicked intent.
So I would say this, I wouldsay the story doesn't get past
the uh what's without Jay andsilent Bob, and because of their
(52:41):
quest for uh, lust, uh, I wouldsay yeah, uh, this isn't the
kissing book.
If you would ask me that 10minutes ago, though, I probably
would have said no, thanks, ash.
Ashley (52:54):
I live to serve.
Jonathan (52:57):
Kelly, what do you think?
Ashley (52:58):
Yeah, Kelly, what do you think?
Kelly (52:59):
I mean I have to say no.
It's not a kissing book,kissing movie.
The plot didn't hinge on anyromance.
Ashley (53:07):
I think Jay loved her the only way he knew how.
Mari (53:13):
I don't think he loved her at all.
I I I'm with kelly I I it was ano for me.
Um, I mean, the movie had itsvalue.
I'm not saying it's a bad movie.
I just don't think it was had aromance based element to it.
Jonathan (53:28):
Um, is this is was there a a banging?
Mari (53:34):
I mean, I guess god banged the baby into bethany said
banged a baby into bethany.
Jonathan (53:41):
So I guess, or was that like the mediterran?
Did the mediterran bang thebaby in, or did god bang the
baby in?
I?
Mari (53:47):
I don't know.
My assumption was God did itwhen she healed the wound she
had at the end.
Jonathan (53:56):
I think that's where I kind of like I maybe got a
little lost.
I thought Alan Rickman grabbedher in the stomach and was like
now.
Ashley (54:04):
Now, this is the last time, yeah.
Jonathan (54:07):
Which is interesting, because what if she didn't want
to?
Ashley (54:10):
She did, okay, yeah that was part of her.
What if she didn't?
Jonathan (54:12):
want to, she did Okay.
Yeah, that was part of herbitterness.
Ashley (54:14):
That was part of the premise of her losing the faith
Right.
Jonathan (54:16):
Oh, okay, cool.
Ashley (54:17):
You can see where he stopped paying attention.
Jonathan (54:22):
Yeah, I like me some ones.
Yeah, I like I'm not going toget his name right.
What's the actor that I like?
Ashley (54:31):
That doesn't narrow it down.
Mari (54:34):
From this movie.
Jonathan (54:36):
Yeah, Loki.
Mari (54:37):
Matt Damon.
Jonathan (54:40):
He's so cute like a little puppy dog when he's drunk
.
Ashley (54:44):
Ben Affleck.
Jonathan (54:45):
Wait, no, Matt Damon Ben Affleck snaps at the end.
Yeah, but you don't really seeloki drunk a whole bunch no,
just at the end, when he cutslinks off, and he's human oh
then my yeah, I love that formatt damon being a little puppy
dog no, he had a fun.
Ashley (55:02):
I think he had a lot of fun making this movie maybe any
final thoughts?
Jonathan (55:08):
how do we feel?
Mari (55:09):
going back to the 90s movie.
So much smoking in this movieso yeah like smoking in the
workplace, smoking on the train.
Jonathan (55:19):
I'm just like, wow, interesting how times have
changed right, it was the timelike you could go into a
restaurant and just sit down andthere were didn't make that.
I mean I bet you go on, go oneBay and buy like the McDonald's
ashtrays.
Ashley (55:34):
Probably, Kevin.
We hope you get your movie back.
Mari (55:37):
Yeah, I would absolutely watch a sequel, for sure.
It'd be interesting to see ifhe did that.
Jonathan (55:42):
What would you do if you were steering the sequel?
Ashley (55:46):
What element.
Jonathan (55:47):
Do you think it needs?
Ashley (55:48):
It's going to be hard without Alan what element do you
think it needs?
Mari (55:53):
it's going to be hard without alan.
Yeah, I think it would beinteresting if it brought in
other other religions, notnecessarily just the
christianity based ones and Iunderstand that that's what
kevin smith is familiar withbecause that's what he grew up
in.
But it would be interesting tohave other other dogmas and
other religions kind of woven ina little bit more centrally to
the plot, you know yeah, I thinkthat would be kind of cool I
(56:16):
like that idea yeah, then hewouldn't be anchored to like the
same characters, cast yeah, Imean he could.
Jonathan (56:23):
He would have to bring like jay and silent bob in, for
sure.
Yeah, I can still bring chrisrock in.
Mari (56:28):
For sure you can still bring Chris Rock in, alright?
Anything else before we wrap itup?
No, I think that covers itAlright.
So thanks for listening to OfSwords and Soulmates.
Before we go, make sure tocheck the show notes, rate,
review and subscribe to us onyour podcast app of choice.
It helps others to find us.
(56:49):
Follow us on Instagram at OfSwords and Soulmates, or join
our Facebook page at of swordsand soulmates.
Check us out on our website ofswords and soulmates dot com, or
on YouTube, tiktok andPinterest with the same username
.
If you'd like to offer asuggestion for a future episode,
reach out to us, give us youropinion, etc.
Please do so, etc.
(57:11):
Please do so if you want toread along with us as we prep
for a new episode.
Follow us on goodreads at ofswords and soulmates, or for
chapter by chapter interactionon the fable app at the of
swords and soulmates book club,and we also have a tome account
under the of swords andsoulmates name where you can
find us as well.
And last but not least, we hopeyou'll join us in two weeks for
our next episode, where we'llbe discussing brighter than
scale, swifter than flame, aqueer novella for pride month by
(57:32):
neon yang bye.
Ashley (57:35):
Thank you.
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