"Fourth Wing" - Power and Passion Tropes - Of Swords and Soulmates

Episode Transcript
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Ashley (00:00):
Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the
participants.
The hosts make no claim to beliterary experts and their
opinions are exactly thatopinions.
All creative works discussed orreviewed are the intellectual
property of the creators of saidstories and is being used under
the Fair Use Doctrine.

Mari (00:33):
Hello and welcome to Of Swords and Soulmates, a podcast
where we read, watch and discussromanticist stories.
I'm one of your hosts, mari,and with me I have Kelly.

Kelly (00:39):
Hey everyone, it's Kelly and we have Ashley.

Ashley (00:42):
Hey guys, it's Ashley.
We also have Jonathan.
What's good, it's JP.
I'm feeling a's Ashley.

Jonathan (00:44):
We also have Jonathan.
What's good, it's JP.
I'm feeling a little better.
I'm not over the top, but likekind of in the middle.
All good, how's everybody doing?

Mari (00:51):
Good, good, good good.

Jonathan (00:54):
Is this our first time back since the new year?

Mari (00:58):
Well, we've got the review episode we did that came out on
the second, but this is ourfirst recording in the new year.

Jonathan (01:04):
Yeah, Right, happy New Year, yeah.

Mari (01:06):
Happy New Year.
And just to put this in context, today we're going to be
discussing Fourth Wing.
It is before Onyx Storm comesout.
We are going to be going overFourth Wing and focusing on
Fourth Wing, but there will bespoilers for Iron Flame as well.
Yeah, you can't trust us.
Yeah.

Ashley (01:25):
Going over Fourth Wing and focusing on Fourth.

Mari (01:26):
Wing, but there will be spoilers for Iron Flame as well.
Yeah, you can't trust us.
Yeah, we can't trust us.
So we're going to be discussingFourth Wing by Rebecca Yarrows,
but, as always, we're going togo to the news first.
First thing on the news is thatwell, I think we've talked
about it no-transcript.

(02:12):
You can put, like, have herrequest a message in there or
have it, you know, sent signedto you specifically.
So that was pretty coolabsolutely, absolutely.

Jonathan (02:21):
She also has on um on her instagram feed through the
end of the month, and so I knowthis one her instagram feed,
through the end of the month,and so I know this one will pop
out towards the end of the month.
But, uh, on in in this if youlike, if you get it in under the
wire, there is a giveaway she'sdoing for the games gods play
audio book, like something maybeit's a special audio.

(02:43):
It's the audio book play fromaudiobookscom.
So yeah, so it's on herinstagram page and that contest
draw goes through the 31st.
I just stumbled on it today.
It's like five, five winners.
I don't know how, how many fansshe has.
It's like it'd be interestingbecause it's like the odds maybe

(03:05):
align.

Mari (03:06):
Yeah, play the odds.
It was a good series.
I think most of us for the mostpart enjoyed it.

Jonathan (03:12):
I did.

Mari (03:13):
Yeah, me too.
The other thing I had, which issomething you guys are going to
be going to, is the authorsigning event at the Barnes
Noble Colonial Plaza in Orlandoon the 21st right.

Ashley (03:28):
Yeah.

Mari (03:28):
We'll be there.
Yeah, so it's going to be MikeCortland, who wrote Four Ruined
Realms, hannah Nicole Meyer, whowrote Apprentice to the Villain
, and Abigail Owens, who wroteGames God's Play.
So we're looking forward tohearing what you guys think
about that event afterwards.

Ashley (03:42):
What is that face you're making?

Jonathan (03:43):
It says 7 pm.

Ashley (03:45):
What's at 7 pm.

Jonathan (03:46):
That event.

Ashley (03:47):
What event.

Jonathan (03:49):
That author signing event.

Ashley (03:51):
No, it's not.

Jonathan (03:52):
That's what it says on the seer sheet.

Mari (03:54):
That's what the Instagram post said.

Jonathan (03:58):
That presents a conflict, dear.

Ashley (04:00):
I didn't know.
It was that evening.
We took the day off.

Jonathan (04:02):
We definitely took the day off, but we also, in
slightly bookish news.
We also purchased tickets tosee Josh Gad talk about his new
book in Orlando at 7 pm.
Oh, in Gad we Trust, oh.

Mari (04:25):
Looks like we have to to make some choices yeah, for sure
oh, that didn't register at all.
The other thing I had is thatRuby Dixon is releasing a sequel
to A Bull Moon Rising and it'scalled by the Horns.
It's coming out September 2ndof this year and it's Minotaur
and a Reluctant Necromancer,which sounded interesting.

(04:45):
I donaur and a ReluctantNecromancer, which sounded
interesting, I don't know, maybeReluctant Necromancer, maybe
Necromancer in Denial I don'tknow how to describe it, but it
seemed like an interestingconcept.
So the first one was a fun read.
I think it's a fun world she'screated, so I'm glad there's a
sequel in it.
So I have no idea if any of thecharacters from the first one

(05:06):
are going to weave into it, butit's the same institution that
the first one is set in.
Interesting, yeah I'm gonna haveto read that first one soon the
last bit of news I have is thatt kingfisher, who we've talked
about a lot I know I like her,um, she wrote nettle and bone
and the sorceress comes to calland the Saints of Steel series.
She's releasing a new.

(05:26):
She's releasing two books thisyear.
One is a horror book but theother one is a fairy tale
retelling of Snow White.
It's called Hemlock and Silverand it's coming out August 19th
of this year.
It's described as a darkreimagining of Snow White.

Jonathan (05:43):
Oh, mm-hmm, snow White's dark to begin with,
isn't it?

Mari (05:47):
I think so.

Jonathan (05:49):
Darker, yeah, interesting.

Mari (05:52):
All right, so we're doing something a little different.
Well, actually, let mebacktrack.
Does anybody else have any newsthey want to add?

Jonathan (05:57):
I don't have any additional news.
What's that?
Look on your face.

Ashley (06:00):
Ash, because everything they sent me and everything I
sent you does say 7pm.

Jonathan (06:05):
I don't know why it didn't register in all fairness,
it does say 10am to pick upyour wristbands maybe that's why
7pm never.

Ashley (06:17):
I'm sorry I can't.

Mari (06:18):
I'm trying to let this go we are changing up the format a
little bit.
Instead of having like anon-spoiler section and then
breaking it up and then goinginto spoiler section, we're just
going to go straight intospoilery section.
Diverted yeah.
So, kelly, if you would do thespiel please.

Kelly (06:36):
So from this point forward, dear listeners, we will
be discussing spoilers.
There will be no spoiler-freediscussion of this book at any
point.

Mari (06:46):
And additionally there will be some spoilers for Iron
Flame as well.

Kelly (06:51):
Right, we'll do our best not to spoil something for Iron
Flame, but since we've all readthe second book, it's going to
affect what we talk about.

Mari (06:57):
It all bleeds together.
It really does yeah.

Ashley (07:01):
Sorry guys.

Mari (07:02):
No, I agree.

Ashley (07:03):
I agree.
Oh no, I was apologizing to ouraudience.
In theory, we should beadulting.

Jonathan (07:10):
Yeah, no.

Ashley (07:13):
So listen, I know that.
Mari gets it and I know Jonathangets it, and if Kelly hasn't
been sucked into this world yet,then so sorry to you too.
But arguably I think this umseries has kind of had us in a
small chokehold for the oh youknow what, going on two years
now.

(07:33):
This year will be two yearssince the original release.
So we have been, we have beenmicro analyzing to a point to
where I don't generally likethat part.
You know I'm not trying to findthe Easter eggs, I wouldn't be
surprised.
But I think we've all becomeprivate investigators to a

(07:53):
certain degree and we are tryingto figure this shit out.
I don't know who's close to it.

Mari (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's we're all misfiring on it.

Jonathan (08:05):
Whatever we think we know I'm sure we don't.

Mari (08:07):
Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting.
It'll be interesting seeingwhat potential theories are
right or wrong.
Yeah, I first read it.
I read it the first time backin July of 2023.
Okay, so, yeah, we're readingit because the third book comes
out this month.
So Empyrean Series Fever exists, it's a thing.

(08:27):
Let me read the synopsis.
It was published on May 2023.
Let me read the synopsis andthen we'll get into a discussion
.
Sound good.

Jonathan (08:34):
Mm-hmm.

Mari (08:36):
So 20-year-old Violet Sorengel was supposed to enter
the Scribe Quadrant, living aquiet life among books and
history.
Now the commanding general,also known as her toughest
talons mother, has orderedViolet to join the hundreds of
candidates striving to becomethe elite of Navarre dragon
riders.
But when you're smaller thaneveryone else and your body is
brittle, death is only aheartbeat away.

(08:57):
Because dragons don't bond tofragile humans, they incinerate
them.
With fewer dragons willing tobond than cadets, most would
kill Violet to better their ownchances of success.

(09:18):
They incinerate them can giveher just to see the next sunrise
.
Yet with every day that passes,the war outside grows more
deadly.
The kingdom's protective wardsare failing and the death toll
continues to rise.
Even worse.
Violet begins to suspectleadership is hiding a terrible
secret.
Friends, enemies, loverseveryone at Basquiat War College

(09:39):
has an agenda, because once youenter there are only two ways
out Graduate or die.
I love it oh so such a goodstory overall, like overall
rating.
What you thought as far asoverall rating?
How many stars you?

Jonathan (09:56):
get, we're gonna go first, or you have a batting
order in mind I can go first.

Mari (10:02):
Yeah, so for me, honestly, the first time I read this, it
was a three-star read for me.
When I read it, I had heardamazing things about it.
This is the best thing outthere.
This is better than ACOTAR.
This is whatever.
I heard, like it was that.
Or I heard this is total trash,this is the worst thing out

(10:24):
there.
And so it was like, well,obviously it cannot be both of
these things.
So I was intrigued and when Iread itading, the first book,
like I did recently, I think thesequel adds things, adds a

(10:52):
layer of depth and enjoyment tothe first book, so I bumped it
up to four stars for me.

Jonathan (10:58):
Nice Ash.

Ashley (11:00):
This book is a five for me and I think I learned what a
five is from Mari.
This book is a five for me andI think I learned what a five is
from Mari, and I think I was.
I'm very easy to give a fourstar read to, and I think Mari's
you know like prime reasoningfor a five is something that a
book that you will reread, andso I think that alone is what

(11:21):
makes it a five.
I've I don't think I've readthis book a thousand times, but
it's probably a third or fourthreread of some kind, because I
listened to the audiobook, Itried the dramatization.
I don't know that I've made itthrough either of them, but I'm
very content to have read thismore than once.
This isn't the most originalwriting, this isn't, um, the

(11:45):
most astounding writing, and Idon't think it surpasses the
akatar series right, not akataritself, as we've we have
established that, but I amentertained by rebecca yaros and
fourth wing.
Even before iron flame, I washooked and I think I was

(12:05):
probably the primary reason thatyou even considered reading it
yourself marie yeah so, um,again, it's maybe not the most
original writing.
It's probably you knowstorylines in certain veins that
we've heard somewhere elsebefore.
There's a lot of you of chatterout there that her ideas aren't

(12:26):
original at all, but man, am Ientertained and I love this book
.
It's not complicated, it's notchallenging, but it is
interesting and I think it pullsyou back in when you start to
realize those Easter eggs thatcome to fruition in book two and
it makes you want to finish itand for me that's a five-star

(12:48):
read.

Jonathan (12:48):
I like it, I like him.
Yeah, I'm going to say it was a.
For me it was a five-star readas well.
So I think with the audioversion and originally I, I kind
of went through it and thenwent through iron flame as well,
but then, wanting to reread it,it triggered the immersive read

(13:09):
which then really lit, lit thatfire for me.
So I think previously I mayhave thought of it more of a, of
like a four, but with the, withthe immersive reading process,
like this is a, this is, this isa five for me.
It just makes me want to keephunting in this book for

(13:30):
different clues.

Kelly (13:32):
Yeah.

Jonathan (13:33):
And that's intriguing to me and I don't have a book or
a series that makes me feelthat way.
I think the closest to it forme is, uh, games gods play,
trying to unravel it or figureit out.
But it, the games gods play,kind of feels light
comparatively and uh, I'm notsure I'm going to give that

(13:56):
guitar a chance.
I just think that a series istrash based on the first book.
I don't want to.

Ashley (14:14):
I don't think you can judge a series based on the
first book.
Sure can, I just did.
And I don't think Rebecca hasthat same weight to it in that
sense.
I think she's cracking jokesand I think there are very much
lighthearted things.
I think she gets serious andshe gets deep and then comes

(14:34):
back full circle and I don'tnecessarily know that we really
get all of that with Sarah JMaas, so I can see where he's
coming from.

Jonathan (14:40):
It's the only book that I've had an emotional
reaction to so far.
That's fair, yeah, where he'scoming from.

Ashley (14:43):
It's the only book that I've had an emotional reaction
to so far.
Yeah, that's fair yeah, so butyou also haven't read book two
or three of akatar exactly tochange your perspective.
But you know, to each their ownlet's see what kelly has to say
about it?

Kelly (14:56):
sorry, I gave this book three stars.
I think that it did a couple ofinteresting things, but in the
end this book relied heavily oncommon romance tropes, common
fantasy tropes, and it justserved up those tropes and
delivered them, and there was alot of opportunities, I think,
that were wasted.

Jonathan (15:17):
That's more generous than I thought you were going to
say.
Kelly, I'm like super dupercandid.
I thought you were going to gowith a two.
I was prepared for a two.

Kelly (15:27):
I think the biggest problem that when you start
doing a book that involvesdragon writing is you run into
comparing it to other bookswhere this happened, whether
it's the perennial dragonwriters of Pern, or if it's
lesser known books that involvedragon writing.
So there's always going to bean element where it feels like
the author borrowed some of thatfrom those other authors and

(15:49):
that's fine.
I mean these things, you know,writing dragons isn't like it's
necessarily copyrighted to oneauthor or anything but you have.
You'd end up drawing thecomparison of well, did the
other author, like AnneMcCaffrey, did she do it better?
And in this case I would sayyes, anne McCaffrey built a
better world with her dragonriders of Pern.
The characters were more solid,more well-developed.

(16:12):
The biggest issue I had withthis book, I think, is that it
just relies so heavily on thetypical tropes.
Immediately, right off the bat,we have the magical girl who's
being forced into doingsomething and oh wow, it turns
out she's actually really goodat it, even though she didn't
train at all.
And these other people thatwere at the dragon riding school

(16:34):
were training their whole lives.
And you add on to the fact thatshe had essentially what is you
know Ehlers-Danlos syndrome,more or less.
Yeah, there were magicalhealers and stuff, but she
wasn't like taking advantage ofthe magical healers while she
was at the school.

Mari (16:51):
Too much character in addition to her just being very
like, stubborn about stickingwith things and about pointing
out that, like as a as a personwho lives with a chronic disease
, she knows how to endure andhow to like function an

(17:14):
invisible, one which?
I mean, there's that's not.
Yeah, that's not something toscoff at, like there is
something to be said for whenyou have that level of um
resilience that you've just hadto have to develop.
But more so than that to me,was her, was her brain, like a
lot of what she got through wasbecause she outsmarted people,

(17:35):
not because she was.

Kelly (17:36):
I mean I appreciated she was poisoning some of the people
in order to have the edge andthe hand to hand combat stuff.
And that was a clever thing andthat was a cool thing that the
author did with the character Ithink she's definitely very
average, but I think I thinkyou're right.

Ashley (17:50):
I think her smarts and her ability to you know get out
of some things or work her waythrough some things is
definitely what saved her assmore than half of the time.
Her, her pain tolerance is whatgot her across parapet right
her her selflessness, I think,is what got her across parapet
say more well, she gives herboot to re what does that have

(18:13):
to do with her getting acrossparapet?

Jonathan (18:15):
well, I just think that she, I don't think that uh,
god's granted her favor, likemaybe we haven't gotten the book
six years no proof to that oneum, like zayden could have
yeeted her off right away itdoesn't have anything to do with
what she did no, exactly, she'sselfless.
She gave it to re that's.

Mari (18:34):
That's not what got her wasn't her books well, no, she
didn't have any yeah I mean,maybe it partially could have
been her books, it was her, herway of just.
I mean, even though initiallywhen I first read the book I was
like this is a really clunkyway of doing exposition, but the
character itself, like herwhole, like studying and

(18:55):
repeating stuff to herself tolike calm herself down, I mean,
that was partially I'm sorry, Imeant like the physical books,
because she left them behind.

Jonathan (19:04):
No, it's just that I hear what you're saying.
I really do.
I forgot about that.
But yeah, she does.
When she gets stressed out andto calm herself she centers
herself by repeating she, shestims I mean that was a stim.

Ashley (19:16):
Yeah, for sure I.
I get where kelly's coming from, where she's the least likely
to succeed, and here she is.
But I think she, they, they payattention to that and she
acknowledges that very muchalong the way.
Um, and I think that's whatmakes it endearing.
I mean, obviously there's nostory then if she doesn't
survive.
So there, she has to survive.

(19:37):
But right.

Kelly (19:38):
I mean I think she's not gonna die in the gauntlet
because she's the main character.
I mean she has main characterprotection.
That's the thing.
You don't feel scared for heror anything like that during
that yeah, I think it's like.
The majority of stories, though,are main character protection
you can create a sense ofconcern in a series even if the

(19:58):
main character is never indanger, and so like.
The perfect example of that isthe show andor you.
You know he is going to survive.
He's not going to die in any ofthose episodes because you know
he makes it to Rogue One, sothere's no, ever any fear that
he's going to die.
So instead, all of the fear isplaced on the secondary
characters around him.

Ashley (20:19):
So does that ruin the story for you, though, in that
instance?

Kelly (20:22):
That doesn't ruin the story for me, but you don't have
any fear that she's going tofail the gauntlet or that she's
going to fall to her death oranything like that, because you
know she's the main character.

Mari (20:34):
To be honest, when I read it I didn't necessarily have
fear that.
I didn't think she was going todie, because I didn't think
that they would do that in thisbook, but I wasn't sure she was
going to make it.
I was like, well, maybe shefails out and does go to the
scribe corner or something.
Maybe that's what the rest ofthe story is.

Kelly (20:51):
Right, and that's what made Game of Thrones, the Game
of Thrones books, so crazy isbecause you were scared for any
character, because George RRMartin didn't write in a
first-person point of view andsince you jumped from character
to character, a character coulddie immediately, so that

(21:12):
generated a lot of concern youhad as a reader that this
character that you got attachedto reading from their point of
view could die, just like NedStark died so quickly.

Ashley (21:20):
That was dramatic.
Yeah, I was a Ned Stark fangirl from the get-go when that
happened.

Mari (21:25):
I almost quit.
That was traumatic.
Yeah, I was a Ned Stark fangirl from the get-go and I
watched the first.
Yeah, yeah, I watched the TVshow first before I read the
books and I was like what,that's traumatic.
What do you mean?
He's dead.
I will say what Spoilers forlike Game of Thrones, however
old that book is.

Ashley (21:49):
Well, I will say as the resident podcaster that has read
more rebecca yaros than anyoneelse.
She is not, yes, afraid to killoff a primary character.
So we are not safe just becauseviolet has survived book one
and two, and not for nothing.
Veronica roth I don't know,marie, if you've ever read her
the divergence series spoilerthat doesn't end well for the
primary first person characterso I, I, because this is a

(22:11):
series, I think it's a.

Jonathan (22:14):
It's important to note that, um, she has, like it's
essentially kind of they kind ofhave to make it so far in into
the series.
But I would say this kelly, thevery first sentence of the book
puts her life at risk.
The following text has beenfaithfully transcribed from

(22:34):
navarria to the modern languageby jessenia neilworth this
entire series is a trans, is atranscription, uh, from a third
party.
So, even though this is a, it'smaybe reads in the perspective
of violet, it's a transcriptionno, no, finish.

Ashley (22:53):
What is it?

Jonathan (22:54):
tell us what it says, because not everybody caught
that in the first read allevents are true and the names
have been preserved to honor thecourage of those fallen.
May their their souls becommended to Malik.
So I think we put her life atrisk in the very first sentences
of this book, before we evenreached the words chapter and
one.

Ashley (23:12):
Do we have more ratings?
Are we going full rating system?

Mari (23:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What do we think of the fantasyworld building of it?
Who went first last time?

Ashley (23:22):
Murray did Murray?
Oh, I did.
We're going to get it togethereventually.

Mari (23:28):
Fantasy world building.
I'm going to say three and ahalf for this particular book,
for Fourth Wing.
I feel like the world is goingto expand out dramatically in
the following books.
I think it's going to be like athrone of glass situation,
where the world starts verysmall and then she learns

(23:50):
everything.
I think you know Violet wasvery smart and very good at the
knowledge that she had access toand then she's going to be
learning, as it goes on and on,and us with her, what the world
was really like in history thatactually happened and etc.
Like all that kind of stuff.
The world building is not unique, it's not groundbreaking, but

(24:12):
that's not something Inecessarily ding for.
I don't mind like a retelling.
I don't mind using tropes.
I think they're good shorthands.
You can move on to other things.
I like that the dragons havepersonalities and are fully
fledged characters and thatthere's the mind speak thing.

(24:32):
I think that the main problem Ihad with the world building in
fourth wing is it's a problemthat a lot of people had where
it's like there's supposedlythis war going on, you
supposedly need all these peopleand yet you let like I don't
know 60% of the people who aretrying to be in this corridor

(24:53):
and die.
Surely they could do something.
Surely they could, like, cookthe food for the army or, like
you know, somebody's got to washdishes and do laundry, like.
Surely there's a better use forall these people that you let
die in the writer's quadrantthan just are you?
talking about the people wholike attempt to get into the
writer's quadrant and just um,yeah, and they'll make it yeah,

(25:16):
starting from the get-go, I meanstarting from, like the parapet
, like put a net under thatthing, have those people do
anything else.
There have got to be things inthis world that need to be done,
that not everyone has to be asuperstar, scribe or quadrant or
healer, for you know, writer orhealer, for Surely there's
other jobs in this world and inthis war.

Jonathan (25:36):
Dylan was just trying to make a better life for
himself and his fiance and Ihope she moved.

Mari (25:41):
Dylan was just trying to make a better life for himself
and his fiance and I hope shemoved.
Oh my God.
As soon as that happened, I'mlike is this a George RR Martin
situation?
What am I?

Jonathan (25:49):
getting into.
I think that speaks toRebecca's writing style where,
like you know, you got thismoment, this endearing moment of
him saying goodbye to hisfiance and everything was going
to be great, and he introduceshimself to the main character
and then, like within thatchapter, he bye dylan.

Mari (26:06):
Yeah, bye dylan, but like jack barlow, who fucking
psychopath eating tried to, orsociopath, I've tried to kill
like people on the parapet.
Yeah, we're gonna welcome youin.
We're gonna potentially giveyou the most powerful weapon we
have a dragon.

Jonathan (26:20):
Come on in.
Part of that is yeah, that'swho Jack fucking Barlow is.
He's going to eat some peopleoff, but also they're not giving
him anything.
He has to earn it.

Mari (26:31):
They're giving him the opportunity to earn it.

Jonathan (26:33):
You don't need to cross that parapet to be
respected by to become a writer.

Ashley (26:44):
That is not for this book, sir.

Jonathan (26:45):
What?
At no point in this book doesit say that you have to cross
the parapet to become a writer?

Ashley (26:51):
this is so.
This ties into some iron flametheories and I wonder if we
should just have a section ofthis recording for theories.
But there there is argumentthat in iron flame alludes to
the concept of becoming a riderwithout going through bezgayev

(27:13):
oh yeah, well, because the thedragon's original breeding
ground was, like zayden's, uh,right home.

Jonathan (27:21):
So if that was the original breeding ground, they
could I mean, they could be wilddragons so when I say that it's
, it's meant in that contextthat there's a lot that's not
said, and so it's we haven'texpanded our and there's not a
definitive, like you have to dox, y and z.
It's a yes.

(27:41):
The crossing the parapet provesloyalty and strength and honor
amongst them.
Surviving the gauntlet provesworthiness to the dragons, uh,
the presentation, etc.
And then threshing is who'swilling to to bond with you I
don't know that the god, but youdon't, and no point is it a

(28:05):
requirement?
And this is, and here's therequirement of the.
It's not up to, yeah, it's notup to the college yeah to decide
if somebody can bond.
We find that out pretty quicklyno, but it's the opportunity no
, how are you?

Ashley (28:19):
going to get to threshing without going through
the college?
Yeah, if you're not there tomeet the dragon.

Mari (28:22):
You're not going to bond with the dragon.

Jonathan (28:25):
If you can get into the Vale and find a dragon
that's willing to bond you.

Ashley (28:30):
I think logistically you can't get to the Vale without
going through the grounds ofBeskide.

Jonathan (28:35):
They don't say where it is.
It's just there.

Mari (28:38):
It's protecting my wards yeah, so that that's a lot of
hype so my rating is a three onfantasy world building because a
world that did not make senseto me and I don't tend to be one
that picks apart, like thedetails of that very much and
I'm just like how are you at so,so desperate for people and for
writers and for people to fightin this war and yet you let so

(29:02):
many just die?
I can understand there being astrict process, like if you
don't meet these criteria you'renot the lead of the elite, of
the elite, but that doesn't meanyou you have to die, like this
is game of thrones you win oryou die I don't know that the
war that they are teaching thesekids is what they ultimately

(29:22):
say that it is.

Ashley (29:23):
Yeah, so I agree the loss of life is worth it to them
because it limits what theyhave to share, if that makes
sense, or what they have toexpose Right.

Mari (29:34):
Right, like I fully think that there are, because of how I
feel with the reread.
I fully think that as more andmore books come out, my opinion
of the first book will changeand the earlier books will
change.
I think that it's going tobuild on it and change Easter
eggs.
I fully agree with that.

Ashley (29:51):
But as of right now, I'm going to say three and a half,
having been super exposed toother you know, major dragon
lore, like I've not read george.
I love george in theory, but Ican't read the book.
The books were just, it was toomuch.
I didn't get past, like thefirst two chapters, um, but I

(30:13):
had, you know, an affinity forgame of thrones, the television
series, and I've not read thedragons of perern at all.
I read Aragon and I wasobsessed with that, but again,
that was such a massive, it wasso heavy.
Yeah, I keep, you know,reverting to that word, um, and
I I think what again is so greatabout fourth wing was that it,

(30:37):
it wasn't homework, right, likeit wasn't, it wasn't a chore to
read it was just enjoyable andit was light enough to draw you
in.
It was interesting enough tokeep you there, and I do think
she's expanding and I thinkthat's just part of storytelling
, right.
You start small and things getbigger and bigger and bigger.
The killing obviously was notmy favorite.
She killed a lot of people inbook one and you know, to

(31:00):
Kelly's point, I was neverafraid for Violet's life, but
there are other side charactersthat you get really attached to.
So I would say a three and ahalf for the world building in
fourth wing.
It wasn't bad enough to determe from wanting more.
Could it have been better?
Man, maybe I just don't knowthat the world building is

(31:23):
necessarily her focus.
I think the people are herfocus, right.

Jonathan (31:29):
I think she did a fantastic job of world building,
quickly Giving me a data dumpof information to put together
how these things work, the densof dragons you get, how you get,
how you gain magic, thedifferent, uh, the different
quadrants that you could end upin within that, how, like the

(31:51):
hierarchy and explanation of thecodex and like what you kind of
like the foundational rules.
I think that she, when she didit very quickly, she did it
through.
A lot of that was done throughdeath and understanding their
customs.
A lot of customs are built onjust in our normal society are
built on death and what we do inthat moment.

(32:14):
So I think that she did a greatjob of building that world for
me and for that I'd say I'd giveit a five.
Kelly, what did you think ofthe world building?

Kelly (32:27):
Overall, I would say the world building was a two.
There were just so manyproblems with the way things
were established, in addition toit just falling into a lot of
the same fantasy tropes and someof which we've already talked
about.
But the biggest issue I hadwith a lot of the same fantasy
tropes and some of which we'vealready talked about, but the
biggest issue I had with a lotof it is and Mari's already
talked about how expendable theymade these riders, which, okay,

(32:49):
I can get past the the initialcrossing the parapet, let him
die, and then everything upuntil they're bonded, maybe with
the dragons.
But once they're bonded withthe dragons, why the fuck would
you put them in any situationwhere they have a reasonable
chance of dying during training?
At that point they become waymore valuable because of the
bond to the dragon.
But it's okay, we have severalof them die.

(33:09):
You know it seems like everyday.
No big deal, but it is a bigdeal.
That's a huge deal.
And, yeah, there's this whole.
Oh well, maybe the dragon willbond with one of the unbonded
people who's still here at theschool or whatever.
Okay, that's one way of gettingaround that problem, but I can't
help but thinking this is likepilots In the military.

(33:30):
When you train pilots up untilthe point where they get past
the initial pilot trainingschool, the military doesn't
really go out of the way to doanything special to make sure
they don't get hurt, other thanthe standard stuff they would do
anybody.
But once pilots get to thepoint that they're ready to
start training and type ofaircraft and stuff like that,

(33:50):
they are incredibly valuable,way more valuable than the
machine they're flying.
And so this book is treatingthe riders as if they are
completely expendable.
They make a big deal about howthey get this signet and they
can become powerful and this andthat.
But the author's point of viewis that these writers are
completely and 100% expendable.
And maybe that's what they'regoing for, because we're going

(34:12):
for something that's like adystopian setting.
I mean, this is like basicallya dystopian fantasy novel
because it has all the hallmarksof the dystopian book.
But I just don't see how youwould make these writers so
expendable while they're atschool.
I just that is so crazy of athing.
That is just way, does not makeany sense whatsoever that you

(34:35):
make them so expendable afterthey have bonded with dragons,
in particular once they get pastthe first year and they're
still dying left and right intheir second and third years.
That's just ridiculous.
That's not how you win a war.

Ashley (34:49):
I don't know that they're trying to win a war.

Jonathan (34:52):
Well, I would say, I think, if I can shift your
perspective slightly, don't lookat it as the cadets flying a
plane.
Switch those roles.
The dragons are the importantpiece of this puzzle and they're
.
The cadets are what they areriders.

(35:12):
They are not pilots.
They do not steer, they are notin control, they are not the
powerful beings.
The dragons are selecting atool to help the dragons survive
and advance.

Ashley (35:24):
Oh, look at you.

Jonathan (35:24):
That's deep, that's all that matters.
Well, it's the Empyrean series,it's the dragon series.
It has nothing to do with theriders, so it's not about the
dragons.
Don't care.
Dragons are the most powerfulmagical creatures in this world,
and so they're just.
If they drop their knife ortheir knife breaks.
Just gonna you just pick upanother one, but they don't,
that's all the riders are.

Kelly (35:45):
They don't, because plenty it says in there that
plenty of dragons won't survivethe death of their bonded rider
either right, because wasn'tthere this thing where, like,
the more times they bond, likethe deeper the bond is?

Mari (35:57):
so eventually it gets to where such a such a deep bond
that the dragon dies too and Ihave not gotten back into iron
flame in a little while.

Ashley (36:06):
I don't necessarily think that a majority of dragons
are passing from the loss oftheir riders, and we see that in
iron flame with tarn, arguablyas old as he is, which is not
necessarily as old as a majorityof the rest of the dragons, but
as old as he is and as manytimes as he's bonded.
When his last rider died hedidn't show his face for five

(36:28):
years.
He literally only showed up.
We find out in fourth wingbecause of the golden one right,
it was not his intention, hewas living his single dad days
over there.

Kelly (36:41):
Karn also says in Iron Flame and I don't think this is
too much of a spoiler he tellsViolet that if she dies, he will
die.
Yes, but that's rare.
That's rare, I don't know thatthat's so rare because it sounds
like from what I've read thatthat is a possibility that
happened because they make a bigdeal of telling riders, telling

(37:01):
the dragons choose to live.

Ashley (37:03):
Yeah, I think I don't know about rarity.
I will, but I don't think it'scommon either, especially in
those early days of the bond.
Those first few months, I think.

Kelly (37:15):
Even if it's not common, why would you risk it?

Ashley (37:19):
Why would you risk it Because they're expendable.

Kelly (37:20):
Especially in the second and third years, once the bond
is stronger, why would you riskit?
Why would you risk it,especially, especially in the
second and third years?
Once the bond is stronger, whywould you risk it?

Ashley (37:26):
so which risk is it, though, that?

Jonathan (37:28):
hold on.
I just want to tag in here it'snot, it's you.
You can't just bond and thenwhen somebody dies, the dragon
dies.
That's not how that works.
It's a deep, deep.
So you touched on it earlier.
The more times you bond, themore the deeper it goes.
So when Taryn, what Taryn saysto her is you're, you're, you're
, you are my, you're not my nextrider, you are my last rider.

(37:52):
And Taryn is one of the oldestdragons in existence at the time
.
Taryn is over 100.
He's second in age behind Kota.
Terran has bonded I don't knowhow many riders, and that's why,
and this bond is going to behis last bond.
But for dragons that havelesser bonds, who are younger,

(38:17):
they can, and those bonds aren'tdeep.
They lose a rider, rider.

Ashley (38:21):
They don't care, it's just, it is what it is I mean, I
don't know that we know enoughto make all of these statements,
but again I it's not the sameway for the dragon as it is for
the rider, and I thinkjonathan's point of the human
being, the tool creating a human, while it takes time 20 years
to a dragon, is nothing Right.

(38:43):
There are more humans thanthere are dragons, I think, and
they're looking for the epitome.

Kelly (38:50):
Let's look at it this way While there is some and I agree
with Jonathan the dragons arealso more of the weapon.
But let's look at it this waySome of these riders, what the
power they have differs and it'snot always the same, even if
it's the same dragon.
Like you know, you bond withthis dragon and then you know

(39:12):
the next person who bonds withthem doesn't have the same power
.

Ashley (39:16):
Okay, Cause it all depends on the rider.

Kelly (39:18):
So you get somebody like Dane, who we may hate for a lot
of reasons, but he has anincredibly important power right
?
Why would you risk him gettingkilled?
Why would you put him in theschool?
Why would you have the schoolset up so there's a chance he
dies, when that gift isincredibly important?

Jonathan (39:36):
I would argue that they don't, though Zayden's
power is incredibly important.
Who's it important to?

Kelly (39:41):
To the people in the war.

Jonathan (39:43):
Correct, correct, correct.
Now, kelly's right.
It's important to the people inthe war.
The dragons are the hierarchy.
Dragons are at the top.
Human beings are a tool for thedragons to use.
Dane's power doesn't matter tothem, they're using the humans
for survival purposes well, Ithink you're diving into
politics then too, becausewhat's?

Ashley (40:05):
important to the well.
What's important to the humansisn't necessarily what's
important to the dragons.
What does dane's dragon careabout?

Jonathan (40:12):
dane signet correct it has nothing to do.
That's what I'm saying the onlything dane's dragon did was
offer open the channel for magicto flow through once.
Once he was like, hey, alright,this guy's not a piece of shit,
I'm going to let some magicflow through.
And whatever Dane is at hiscore, whatever he's seeking at
his core, that's how the magiccomes out, and it manifests, as

(40:36):
Dane could most benefit from atthat point, what he could use it
for.

Kelly (40:41):
It doesn't't but from the human perspective, that power
is incredibly important andincredibly useful.
So why would the humans runningthe school put those kind of
powers at risk?
And, as far as the dragons, notcaring about the powers, and I
would say once, violet's powercame into being and important.
How important violet's power is, why would you put her at risk?

Ashley (41:04):
I think they're trying to break her.
I think we're.
You know, they feel threatenedby her.

Kelly (41:08):
No, no, I think the humans are trying to break her.
But if the dragons are the onesin control, why the fuck would
they let her go back to thatschool?
Why would Tarn let her go backto that school?
Because her power is incrediblyimportant and incredibly useful
in the overall effort of thedragons and the humans why would
you put her in human keeper?

Jonathan (41:25):
anyway it doesn't.

Kelly (41:25):
They made it a point several times saying dragons
don't answer to humans.
So if the dragons are the onesthat are in control and they
don't care about the powers forthe most part but violet's power
is obviously very important tothe dragons again, why would you
put them at risk?
That's why the thing, the wholething, doesn't make any sense.
From that point of view, thewhole, the whole thing about how
easily and quickly they killpeople at that school makes no

(41:48):
sense other than for it to be aplot device for the dystopian
nature of the book, to make sureit's like a battle royale, you
know game of the fear tacticright, it's a battle, it's the
battle royale hunger thing, andthat's what the author is using
Because it makes no sense forthe story or the world.

Ashley (42:06):
We have more ratings.

Jonathan (42:09):
I was just like what does the cover look like?

Ashley (42:12):
This is a 30, 40 minute conversation of world building
tangents.
So I'm just I feel bad forKelly's editing.

Kelly (42:21):
No, I mean it's pretty straightforward.
Jonathan said the worldbuilding was the best ever.
Ashley and Mari were like meh,it was okay and I was like it
sucked.

Mari (42:31):
Way to summarize Absolutely Okay.
So onto romance.
For me, if I had to do it justbased off of Zayden and Violet's
romance, it'd probably be likea 3.
Her father, but also with thesiblings is very sweet.
It's also very much a necessitywhen you have that kind of a

(43:15):
mother.
So between that and betweenViolet's relationship with the
people who become her friends, Iwould bump.

Ashley (43:25):
it's such a juvenile relationship in the sense that
neither of them have hadexposure to what a healthy

(43:48):
relationship actually looks like, and I think it's very high
school-y right to begin with.
I think they have these veryintense, very powerful feelings
for one another, which isamplified by the mated bond
between Sagail and Taryn, but Istill think it's interdependent

(44:10):
for themselves as well.
There's so much growing thathas to happen for them both as
individuals to be a respectablerelationship.
But it doesn't mean that Idislike their relationship.
I just think it's a lot ofwhining, honestly.
But all of that said, I thinkthe relationships and the

(44:31):
romance of those relationshipsthat exist in this book are very
well done.
I think Rebecca does a decentjob of normalizing relationships
, which I thought was impressive.
And, like you said, while Ithink Violet has a devotion to

(44:54):
her blood family, I think thefamily that she's making could
be more important than that andI think we see that
exponentially more in Iron Flame.
I think it's a four consideringall of those factors.
If we had to dumb it down tojust Violet and Zayden, because
of the juvenile high school backand forth, that's probably more

(45:15):
like a three.
I just think it's a veryintense bond between them.
I do think it's real, for youknow the purpose of of this
series and I think, when all issaid and done, we'll see
something that's very, verylovable about it, and we're just
not there yet.
But it's not because the writingsucked or the romance writing

(45:38):
sucked, or because it'sunbelievable or unoriginal or
anything of that nature.
I just think it's what it'smeant to be for this book.
So I would say a three just forViolet and Zayden, but a four
for all relationships involved,especially the mother-daughter
relationship at the end of IronFlame.

Jonathan (45:59):
I think there's just so much.

Ashley (46:00):
we don't know yeah.

Jonathan (46:01):
Interesting, I'm going to give it a three overall.
I think what happened happenedlate in the story and that's why
I gave the world building suchhigh marks is because it was the
majority of the story and thenthe sexy time came later.
But this curveball, this wholewrench in the machine here is we
talk about assault.

(46:22):
I think that burden lies withZayden.
Assault.
I think this, that burden lieswith zayden and his.
I think it starts with.
I think I think the, the takingadvantage of another person on
the sexual front, is that thatlies with zayden, that's his to
bear, he.
He had an advantage, as as wefind out later in Iron Flame,

(46:45):
coupled with the emotional tiesto the dragons and their bonds,
their mating bond, and he usedthat to his advantage and he
allowed actions to take placeand foster a plan for those
things and also not to takeplace.

(47:06):
In his defense, he it's stillstop something he does, stop
some things, but he tookadvantage in that situation and
that I would classify as assault.
I don't think that our leatherclad shadow daddy is clean.
Uh, it should be clear of allcharges, it doesn't, no?

(47:26):
Plus, there's a family historyin there that involves um sexual
servitude allegedly no, notallegedly.
It's in the books servitude thecontract, it's a contract that
feels intense it isn't the whole.
Yeah, contract, fucking contractis intense servitude is intense

(47:49):
yeah contract is business so,rather than that allowing, so
that, uh, I would say, woulddictate my, that drags the marks
down.
What brings the marks up isthat rihanna, the body count is
high and it's, and she does notgive a shit if you're a boy,
girl, no fucks given.
I think it's just Riddick.
Yeah, I don't care.

(48:10):
Yeah, I think that's.

Ashley (48:12):
That's what I'm saying.
I thought there was somerepresentation.
Yeah, it not thrown inanybody's face Like it was
polite, it was cool.

Jonathan (48:24):
Wasn't she with R?
She was with Sawyer.
She was with Sawyer.
She was with Tara.
Did Tara lose her life?
I think so.
I think she's dead, but yeah,so I think I'd like to.
If we're following somebody'slove story or passion story
around, for me it's Rihanna.
I want Rihanna's story, andthen later on, I think there's a

(48:46):
cutesy kind of comfy with is itRiddick and Yesenia?

Ashley (48:50):
Is it Riddick or Sawyer?

Jonathan (48:52):
It might be who loses.
It was Sawyer I don't know.
Sawyer it was Sawyer, sawyerand Yesenia.
It's fresh, as firmly I think,that vibe, that pass of the vibe
check.
Overall the story has hints andtreasures of spider web of love
the spider web of love but italso has the these dangerous

(49:16):
elements of that that are trapsand I think that we shouldn't
lose sight of no one said thatall love was healthy, sir.
Yeah, and that's yeah, I agree,I love you.

Ashley (49:31):
Sorry.

Kelly (49:32):
Kelly what'd you think?
I think that Zayden andViolet's relationship is a
dumpster fire and it's anabusive relationship.
It's a completely unhealthy.
It's a codependent relationshipand it's terrible.
And it's the same trope wealways see the girls falls for
the hot broody, you know, badboy.

(49:55):
It's just the trope of thisgenre, apparently, is that every
romantic male character isgoing to be the brooding bad boy
, the shadow daddy.
But their relationship is veryunhealthy, very codependent and
it's terrible.

Ashley (50:12):
Mari, I vote that one of our future reads is a book
where the female is the morallygray shadow daddy and that the
male main character is just theaverage human.
It exists.

Kelly (50:25):
Write it down.
It does exist.
It does exist, it exists.
Write it down, it does exist,it does exist.
It was the book by SebastianNothwell.

Mari (50:36):
So that was terrible.

Kelly (50:37):
That is a terrible relationship.
That is not romance, this onenot Sebastian's, one Sebastian's
was great.

Ashley (50:44):
Sebastian does know wrong.

Jonathan (50:45):
Okay, cool, cool, cool cool.
I want to make sure of that,because those statements were
close, yeah.

Kelly (50:49):
While Rhiannon is an interesting character, she fills
mostly the typical trope of abisexual, sex-crazed
nymphomaniac.

Jonathan (51:00):
I just thought you got to get it in because you're a
writer, you could die, so you'retrying to have some fun.
Well, yeah, sure you're awriter, you could die.

Kelly (51:06):
So you're trying to have some fun.
Yeah sure, I mean, I guessthere's that, but it's also the
fact that she's just you knowit's like, it's plain, like
that's a common trope in fantasyliterature.
That is someone's bisexual,then they're banging everything
left and right or they're evil,or they're both, or they're evil
right, or they're evil or both.
So so we fall into that.
We fall into that trope andstereotype.

Jonathan (51:27):
I chalked it up to her being in the writer's quadrant
and anticipating death wouldfind her sooner rather than
later.
So she's going to have a goodtime.

Kelly (51:37):
But not every person was doing that.
She was doing that and itbecomes a question of was she
doing that because she'sbisexual, and that was the
justification for it?
Was she doing that becauseshe's bisexual, and that was the
justification for it?
So it's just not a good thingto write characters like that,
because that is a very commontrope in fantasy.
That gets a lot of criticism,and for good reason.

Mari (51:58):
I would say it's a trope in fiction because I mean it's
in sci-fi too a lot, All right,so Spice too a lot, All right,
so spice.
For me I would say the spice isa four for all the things that
a lot of things you guys alreadymentioned in romance topic,
which is that representation wasvery well done.
It was done very likeorganically, I thought, in terms

(52:21):
of like there were multiplegenders, more than just binary,
and there was very likenormative attitudes towards,
like you, grown consentingpeople are going to do what
grown consenting people do andit doesn't matter as long as
everyone's grown and consenting.
And also I thought in generalthe tone of the book was pretty

(52:45):
sex positive, Like I didn't feellike there was any like sex
wasn't a shameful thing or a badthing.
So in that context I thoughtthe spice was pretty good.
As far as the first book theydidn't involve it it was fine.
I'm not the number one fan ofthem together, so the spice
wasn't like mind blowing to me.
There was a scene in the secondbook that I thought was

(53:08):
infinitely better.

Kelly (53:09):
But we're not talking about that book right now so

Ashley (53:12):
four for spice.
I agree on the four for spice.
Give it the same.
I thought I thought it wasn'tevery chapter Right.
I thought the tension wasreasonable.
I thought you know theexpectation.
I thought the little crush onDane, you know, for the first
half or the first third of thebook was reasonable.

(53:33):
I thought it was all just verytasteful.
You know, like you were saying,mari, with the, the exposure
and the, the normalcy ofrelationships and sex drives and
, I think, my thoughts on thebisexuality of some of the

(53:54):
characters.
I've never read the 100.
Have you guys watched or readthe 100?
So I watched the.
TV series and it's verydystopian, but it's futuristic
dystopian.
And so the I was, I was readingan article about it at one
point, um, and I loved theseries, but it did, uh, divert

(54:17):
from the books, is myunderstanding.
However, the thought processwas, you know, sexuality should
be fluid, in that they had ahealthy respect for both genders
and so the attraction was forboth genders.
It wasn't male for female,female for male.
They normalized it and Ithought that that was such a

(54:39):
poignant point for that storyand I see it here as well.
If life is going to be short,you have a short life expectancy
.
You could die at any moment.
You could just look at a dragon, you know the wrong dragon, the
wrong way, and you're going tobe incinerated at any point at
your time in Basquiat.
So all of those things, Ithought, made the spice that

(55:03):
existed and presented veryappealing.
It wasn't thrown in your face,it wasn't tasteless, it wasn't
raunchy, and when taryn saidshould I get the wing leader
when they were trying to developviolet signet, I rolled out of
my chair like that's hilarious.
It was good writing, uh.
So four for me.

(55:23):
I was happy with it interestingI'm.

Jonathan (55:26):
I'm gonna give it a three for spice.
It I didn't you know whathappened was few and far between
, but I almost want to know moreabout.
I think there might have beenmore spice between sagail and
taryn.
You know what I mean, likethose emotions I I think that's
dare I say.

Ashley (55:47):
Curious.

Jonathan (55:48):
No, but if this is a faded mate story, I think the
faded the mates are Taryn andSeagal.

Kelly (55:55):
Hit me, kelly.
I don't know the spice, I guesswas above average.
It seemed like there was morethan some of the books we've
read in the past.
It was definitely moredescriptive and in depth.
The it was definitely moredescriptive and in-depth.
The biggest problem I had withit it's not like it really did
anything for the plot.
It didn't really advance theirrelationship or anything.
It was just sex for the sake ofsex, which is fine, and I agree

(56:17):
that it was nice that there wasno real stigma attached to
having sex like there is in someother books.
It wasn't made like it was abig deal, so that was nice.
But other than that, I just Idon't know that there's anything
extraordinary about it thatmakes it that much better than
anything else we've read per se.

Mari (56:37):
Any other fan theories that we would like to talk about
before we ask the finalquestion?

Jonathan (56:42):
Fan theories.
Or theories, or whatever youhave If you're going to do it.

Mari (56:47):
Jonathan yeah, I mean it is a fan theory.

Jonathan (56:50):
If you're going to do it.

Ashley (56:50):
Jonathan, you got to limit your time.

Jonathan (56:54):
I think the fan theory would be best saved for the
Iron Flame.
I think that's.
I'll hold back, but that's adate that's.

Ashley (57:03):
Pandora's box.

Jonathan (57:05):
For me.
I have like 50 fan theories.

Mari (57:09):
I had one question for everybody before we do the
kissing question At the end ofFourth Wing.
Were you guys surprised by theend?

Ashley (57:18):
Listen, if there's a human that didn't gasp in that
last chapter, that last page, Iwant to meet them.
Kelly, did you see that coming?

Kelly (57:30):
Which thing are we talking about?

Mari (57:32):
Her brother being alive.

Kelly (57:34):
I mean, I didn't see it coming, but it didn't really
shock me or anything.
Ugh, because there was noreason to care about whether he
was alive or dead.
There was no reason for you, asthe reader, to care about
whether he was alive or dead.

Jonathan (57:47):
there was no reason for you as the reader, to care
about whether he was alive ordead correct.

Kelly (57:49):
I agree with kelly it's not like it was a character that
you knew, that you've had timewith or anything like that, that
died and it turns out to bealive, but there was.

Ashley (57:57):
As the reader, you have no vested interest in whether
he's alive or dead I mean, but Ithink it really contributes to
her character development, herown trauma, her own family
disconnects, as well as the thecodependency of you know her,
her relationship with her sister, even oh yeah, I mean sure do

(58:22):
we think it's a kissing book?

Mari (58:23):
I can go first, since I've been going first.
In my opinion, actually, no,not this first book.
I think things probably wouldhave happened as they did even
if Zayden and Violet hadn't beenin a relationship, in an
amorous relationship.

(58:44):
I yeah, that's that's my.

Ashley (58:48):
So I would argue that it's a kissing book,
specifically if, if for nothingelse than for taryn and segale
if we take violet and zayden,they don't have to be together
right this relationship couldend up not working out and one
of them could die, especiallybased off of what we know with
other riders who have turnedVenon and their dragon and what

(59:10):
happens with their dragons afterthe fact and try not to spoil
too much I think something isdefinitely going to happen
fatally to Violet or Zayden, andI don't know that either of
them will come back from it.
But I will say that somethinghappening to either Taryn or
Sigail as a mated pair would bedevastating in book one or two,

(59:36):
and so I think for that reasonit's a kissing book.

Jonathan (59:39):
I do not think this is a kissing book, but I do think
it is a very fun and interestingfantasy book.
So I don't even know that Iwould at this point label it
romanticy Kelly what'd you think?

Kelly (59:53):
It's not a kissing book, and while I think Ashley has a
valid point, I would say that wedon't see enough of Tarn and
Seagal's relationship for me tothink that that is important.
Enough of a part of the bookfor it to make it a romantic
book.
Very interesting.

Ashley (01:00:11):
I'm the outlier guys.

Mari (01:00:13):
Anything else before we wrap it up?

Ashley (01:00:15):
For the sake of everyone , I think we need to say no,
because we can find somethingyeah.

Mari (01:00:21):
Please All right.
Thanks for listening to Swordsand Soulmates.
Before we go, make sure tocheck out our show notes, rate
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(01:00:43):
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Swords and Soulmates book club.

(01:01:04):
We hope you'll join us in twoweeks for our next episode when
we read Iron Flames by RebeccaYaros.
You

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"Fourth Wing" - Power and Passion Tropes

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"Fourth Wing" - Power and Passion Tropes