#124 From Tools to Transformation: Breaking Limiting Beliefs & Building a Better Life

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome back to yet another episode of the Off the Tools
podcast. And I'm delighted to tell you
that we have Andrew Drones back.We had so much to talk about on
the last one. It was a 2 hour long episode and
we ran out of time. So I thought it was very
important to get him back to hear a little bit more around

(00:24):
not what he's done, but some of the things that have opened up
for him through personal development mindset and
generally sort of like looking after himself.
So welcome back, Andy. Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me back. Thank you for having me back in
the studio. You're welcome, you're welcome.
So we're we are recording this live from the Off the Tools HQ

(00:45):
in the podcast studio. So hopefully the sound quality
is on point. We're putting a lot of effort
into professionalising and making your experience as a
listener a lot better. Just before we kick start this
episode, I just wanted to let you know that this is an open
forum. So if you have questions, if you

(01:06):
have subjects that you are interested in, just drop me a
message, drop me a message on Facebook, drop, drop me a
message on Instagram and suggestor ask a question.
And in future episodes, we mightwell be able to cover those,
whether it's myself, whether it's with Andy, whether it's
with other guests. So please don't just sit there
silently listening. Try and engage.

(01:29):
Anyway, back to the guest. So Andy, this is your date.
You're on Day 2 of coming down to see me again.
We did go out for dinner last night.
We didn't drink too much, did we?
We didn't, no. We were sensible.
A brainstorm in the evening so notepads were out and a couple
of small drinks were had. Yeah, I think we did get a few

(01:49):
funny looks sitting in a pub at 10:00 with our notepads out, but
hey ho. Because yeah, just to let
everyone know, this is a free flowing unscripted episode as
well. So we're just it's going to be a
general conversation with value rather than it being following a
specific programme. Like some other podcasts that

(02:09):
like to just sell you stuff today is all about hearing
experiencing things that in the real world we have experienced
that we have either gone throughor that we are going through.
And yeah, it it might last 20 minutes, very unlikely if you
know Andy, and it might last twohours.
Let's, let's just see where it goes.
So let's not cover any of your back story.

(02:32):
That was the previous episode. So if you haven't listened to
that, make sure you go back one episode and you will be able to
hear the full journey of Andy. But we did end the podcast
talking about mindset and personal development.
And we kept stopping ourselves because we we felt it deserved a
full conversation. So what what?

(02:52):
What does personal development and mindset mean to you?
For starters, because some people won't know those words.
They'll be like, well, what doesthat mean?
So I'll, I'll slightly skim overa little bit of the back story
that we went through last time just to give the right context
before we go forward with mindset.
So, OK, again, as everyone know from the last episode, 12 years

(03:14):
in the industry before I startedto think actually I want to look
a bit more from life than just working six days a week making a
normal wage. So at that point, then this this
personal development journey started and it actually started
with some property education. But what it gave me was the
business, the start of the business education journey about

(03:34):
how you can essentially the Sky's the limit if you have your
own business and you have the right mindset.
So personal, personal development within the business
world for me is about shaking asat its core, shaking those
limiting beliefs and becoming your own as cheeses it sounds,

(03:57):
becoming your own cheerleader. And what we kind of finished on
on the last episode was the limiting beliefs of people is
particularly prevalent with trades because you generally
most guys are in the trades and most guys end up working for
themselves, probably even more so because of something that has

(04:20):
gone on in the past. So whether that's a bad
experience in a job or they didn't do quite well enough in
school, which is probably the most common denominator.
And again, we touched on last time that probably the bulk of
trades in the UK are probably neurodiverse to a degree.

(04:42):
We've all got, most of us have probably got those ADHD traits
undiagnosed or diagnosed and it makes it difficult to let's say
hold down a job, let alone hold down something in an office
space setting, which is probablymost of our idea.
Most for most of us is an idea of hell.

(05:03):
And I did try that for a six month period and it was a pure
clock watching exercise. I, I think, well, I certainly
can resonate with that. Definitely.
I'm sure everyone else can. This the being out, being out
and being busy on the tools is stimulating and it's it's allows
you to focus and there's always something to do and it's kind of

(05:25):
compounded when you work for yourself as well.
That was always there is always something to do, but to sort of
get back on track for the the limiting beliefs that that most
people fall into not necessarilyfall into a trade, but often
then fall into working for themselves.
And at that, it's at that point then where the you become the

(05:47):
architect of your own destiny and can construct your own
pricing structure. But again, that's when most
guys, because they've probably not had that personal
development journey, they start to look at, Oh well, what's the
guy down the road charging? What are most people in the area
charging? And then maybe they'll Add all
them up and divide by the the number of people they've worked

(06:09):
out to be. There might be a guy charging
£70, there might be a guy charging 85.
And then they'll fall on an amount that they deem to be the
right amount for them to charge as they're getting going rather
than thinking, well, actually, what value am I bringing,
especially in the realms of whatvalue am I bringing that's
different or better than the other people in the area.

(06:30):
You can't look at the one man band guy down the road who
probably doesn't have job management software or, or
anything like that. He's doing his paper quotes,
paper invoicing. You cannot compare yourself to
him if you're operating in a different, a different type of

(06:51):
business. And that's generally the failing
of a mindset thing because they say, well, actually I can't
charge what a solicitor charges because I haven't been to uni
without looking at it from a very business sort of supply and
demand perspective. And accepting that there's,
there's far less gas engineers around now and it's going on a

(07:16):
trend of that way continuing than there were 5-10 years ago.
And as a result, there's more people, there's more houses and
there's less engineers. So that supply and demand curve
has changed. So a combination of the value
you're bringing and the supply and demand curve, you should be
able to, there should be, there is enough work out there for

(07:36):
everyone. So like what you touched on on
the last episode, there's there's people who want the
premium software and the premiumservice and there's people who
don't. So it's about positioning
yourself with your charges that is right for the value you're
bringing and what you and how you, you know, like I say,

(07:56):
become your own cheerleader and not looking at everyone else
because everyone's different. And the thing that prevents most
guys from doing that is limitingbeliefs.
So it's like, well, I can't charge that much.
I've it been to uni, I can't charge as much as the solicitor.
I can't charge. I can't earn what a doctor
earns. Well, you can because there

(08:16):
isn't a really a direct metric because you're not on a salary,
you're not on a standardised UK wage for a doctor.
Just again, to use it as an example, it's trying to think
about, well, actually I'm operating a business here.
I can charge within reason what I want to charge because there

(08:38):
is never a direct comparison like I, I struggled with this.
So to, to explain that a little bit about that journey, because
I left the industry for a coupleof years, it allowed me to come
back with this fresh perspectiveof I am, I'm not even going to
look at what everyone else is charging.
I'm going to look at the, the, the path that I want to take the
business, what I think is the right amount of money to charge

(09:01):
based on the value that they're bringing.
It's like I've always said, the job that you carry out on site
is probably only 50% of the product and 50% of the value
that you're bringing. So for the guy that just turns
up and does the job and that's the end of it.
Well, he's got his price for thecompany that has an in house
office team booking software reminders, follow-ups, you know,

(09:25):
someone ringing up saying checking the job's gone.
OK, all these little things thatadds to the value as well.
So it's no longer that direct comparison, but it's ultimately
about believing in, believing inyourself and believing in the
product that you're bringing. Yeah.
I, I, I can't disagree with anything you said there.
And and you used pricing as a sort of first point of call

(09:48):
there. And it's probably one of the
biggest limit in beliefs in, in the plumbing heat in, in, in the
construction industry. And I'd probably say in, in most
business, most small businesses,because they, they people put
too much weight on what the end customer will think of that
price. Whereas if you shift that

(10:09):
mindset and be how can I create the best value for that person,
the price becomes part of it, but not the major part of it.
And I understand why people do what you just said at the
beginning about finding the local guys, seeing what they're
charging and sort of going for either a happy medium or going

(10:30):
in slightly less than what some of the people are doing.
The problem is, is as as you clearly said, is that every
business is different. Every person is different.
I get messages daily, weekly at least asking me what, what would
you charge for that? What, what should I charge for
this? And I'm like, well, it depends
on everything you've just said, Andy, depends on what you, what

(10:53):
value do you bring? Do you do you just write it down
on a scrap bit of paper, turn upwhen you want and and get in and
out in nice and quick? Or do you have a full customer
journey that the customer has anexperience rather than just a
simple job done? So yeah.
And and it all that all comes from preconceived perceptions of

(11:17):
what is acceptable, doesn't it? Yeah, like such a guy common
denominator on the forums as well of what would you charge
for this just started on my own.What would you charge for that?
And it's it's all it's differentfor everyone.
Like if you, like I said before,if you're running loads and
loads of software and you have aa monthly burn rate of 10 grand,
you know, versus the guy down the road that isn't using

(11:39):
software and he's not doing this, he's not got the in house
office or whatever. And his burn rate is £500 a
month. He's no longer a comparable like
so it's like you cannot just one-size-fits-all to everyone.
But again, that's, that's that limiting belief.
A lot of people don't think, well, actually, I'm bringing so
much more value combined with there's an abundance of work out

(12:01):
there. I should be charging this and
like even you don't even have todelve into your numbers
completely just to know that youbring in more value.
So you need to be more than the guy that's not bringing as much
value. You know, we, we actively target
customers who want a different level of service to what they've

(12:24):
either had previously or what ismaybe considered the norm.
And then there's a price for that.
But like you said it, you have to believe in yourself or in
your business that you're bringing that extra value.
And that's why I hate that what you're saying.
How much would you charge for this?
It doesn't matter. It doesn't.

(12:46):
It has to be what you need to charge.
I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, when I would have
started, I would have been that guy.
I would have rang around the local companies, found out what
the local charge was and wonder why I wasn't making any any, any
money and why the business wasn't progressing.

(13:06):
So to, to sort of segue a littlebit off of just pricing, because
the, the pricing is a huge issueand probably another complete
podcast just to talk on pricing.But fundamentally the reason I
did that was because that was all I knew.
That was all I knew. The guy I worked with and worked

(13:26):
for charged this, that the, the the local competitors are
charging that. OK, well, that's, that's what I
charge. I won't.
Win any work if I'm more so I can't can't do that.
So in your journey, what, what, what and how changed that
perception for you? I'm guessing you must have gone

(13:48):
through some sort of mindset shifts that from some personal
development or through some books like like tell us about
why you understood it or how youbecome come to the point where
you did understand that concept.A massive contributor was that

(14:08):
time out of the industry that I said before.
The time out of the industry gives a fresh perspective.
And like you said, then you, a lot of guys they've, they've
come up through the industry. They maybe they've done it
since, you know, 16/17/18, whatever it is.
So they've worked with the olderguy who got trained by the older
guy and so on and so forth. And it's, the world's changed a

(14:32):
lot. So it's, it's, it's sometimes
you have to wipe the slate clean, so to speak, and get that
fresh perspective. So whether it's on pricing or
how you conduct the business or just whether you're how you view
things in general, sometimes youneed to take a little bit of a
step back. And it's so hard to do when

(14:55):
you're in the trenches all the time.
And that's for me was probably the pivotal thing.
It wasn't so much that the journey that I was on with the,
the development for personal development and, and business
training and things like that. It was just time out of the
industry. I spent time operating in a
different industry, which was, as I said on the last podcast,

(15:18):
it was property related And there's a it's a very stark
contrast in that kind of industry because it's whatever
you're thinking, think bigger. That's that.
So you know what I mean? Like you, you're talking to
people who've just done like they may be brokered a property
deal and their fee was half £1,000,000.

(15:41):
It's like, well, that metric hasnot come from anywhere.
It's, that's, that's purely bornfrom the value that they're
bringing that, you know, they'vesourced the, the £10 million
house to someone who's happy to pay £50 million for it because
it's ticks every single box. And the money's no objective for
that person to put the broker inthe middle is just the guy who's

(16:03):
made two people come together for a perch for an investment
purchase or a personal purchase,whatever it is.
But because he believes there's enough value been brought to the
table, that's what his fears. And OK, that's a bit of a
grandeur scale, but there's plenty of those kind of things
happening where, well, I've found that an investor is too
busy to find it himself. So therefore the value that I've

(16:28):
brought to him is a massive timesaving.
So I'm going to charge 10 grand for it.
And there's just that was just the common denominator of like,
well, it's all about the value you bring.
Like I don't know about, I don'tcare what anyone else is
charging. Like it's I'm, I'm brokering
this deal or it's my business orI'm doing this and that.
Like it didn't take very long tobe surrounded by those sort of

(16:49):
people to start to like the cogsthat turn.
Actually, what about if you bring that same attitude to a
business that fundamentally an industry?
Sorry, that fundamentally lacks that mindset because again, it's
just it's the people you surround yourself with on the

(17:11):
most part, isn't it? It's you sometimes you have
like, you know, it's such a small amount of people who in,
in this industry who think big enough to think I can achieve,
you know, XY and Z like without dwelling too much on price
again. But that's again the thing that

(17:33):
limits the growth in the business because you hit
capacity too soon. And then you think, well, how
can I possibly grow a business and take on staff when I'm only
making this much myself and I'm working all day every day?
Like, I don't understand what I can I can do differently.
I can't increase my prices because people won't pay it.
Whereas instead it's like, well,actually like people will pay

(17:56):
it. It's just probably not the
people who I've got now. And obviously one of the most
fundamental things you said to me when we started working
together was that your customersof the past and the present are
probably not going to be the customers of the future.
As your business grows, evolves,changes and and you start to
alter the way that you carry outyour business.

(18:17):
And that scares most guys. Yeah, definitely.
Before you go on, I want to backtrack to something that you
said about the people you surround yourself with.
And it's such such, such an important aspect.
And I've, I've got a little story that I want to share that
a few weeks ago I posted in two plumbing and heating groups,

(18:39):
right. One is filled with your, your,
your, your normal plumbing and heating engineer.
It's called Plumb Chat and it's a place to talk about plumbing
and heating. And then there's the other group
which is called Off the Tools community, which is filled with
business focused people. And I put the same post in both

(19:01):
groups and the post in essence, it was quite a long post.
But basically I said, if you don't know the numbers in your
business, if you don't understand the running costs and
and have a real good grasp on the numbers in your business,
you shouldn't be in business. And it went absolutely berserk
in both groups, but for both thecontrasting different reasons.

(19:25):
So in the Plum chat group, it went berserk of people basically
calling me out, saying I didn't know what I was on about, I've
never known my numbers and I'm fine, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. And it was all very negative.
And and then there was a handfulof people that sort of agreed
and and put their own viewpoint in, etcetera.
But the big contrast was that inthe off the tools group, it was

(19:46):
the complete opposite. Everybody was like completely
every, every mistake comes back to not knowing the numbers.
If I'd only known 10 years ago, I could have been in a different
place. And, and now I just, it's non
negotiable. You have to understand the
numbers. And that for me, just, it just
prompted me to think about that moment because.

(20:07):
There will be somebody that onlygoes on plum chat or gas chat or
whatever, right? And yes, it's not in a physical
form, but they're surrounding themselves with people of that
mindset. And then there's some people
that will only be in off the tools or alternative Facebook
groups that are focused around business and though they are
surrounding themselves with thatenergy and that mindset.

(20:30):
And obviously that transpires into the physical world as well.
So if you're going out for days out with people that are
negative and, and moany and miserable and and unhappy, guess
what that's going to rub off on you.
There's a there's an old quote that you become the sum of the
five people you, you, you spend the most time with.

(20:52):
So I really just wanted to emphasise for people listening,
have a look at who you're spending time with, have a look
at what you're listening to, what you're consuming because
we're saying spend time with, but if you're listening to the
news all day, every day, it's going to rub off on you.

(21:12):
All of that negative energy. So a little challenge for all of
you is to work out who are the five people in your life that
you spend the most time with andcould be friends, could be
family, you know, it could be work colleagues.
Have a look at who you think thetop five are and really dial in

(21:32):
at what is, who is that person? What, what are their intentions,
What are their aspirations, Whatare what are their goals?
And see if any of that lines up with where you are wanting to
go. Because if it doesn't, it's
going to act as an anchor. And sometimes you need an
anchor. Do you know, like I'm not saying
don't speak to your mum if she, you know, just because she's got

(21:54):
a negative mindset or whatever it might be.
But if you can change some of that consumption, whether it be
in physical form of who you spend time with, whether it be
in the digital form of where yousocialise online, honestly it
will transform your mindset. Wouldn't.

(22:15):
I I think families are, like yousay, families a little bit
different. It's a tough one, yeah.
Yeah, I think a good sort of wayof looking at it is if you like,
if you zoom out and look at it objectively, you get yourself
and you get the, you know, the other five people that you spend
the most time with and you form a like a like you say the

(22:37):
middle, the middle ground between all of those people.
Is that the person you want to be moving forward in the future.
If you're if those are the five mates are fighting to get to the
pub at 2:00 on a, on a Friday afternoon every single week.
And that's the weekend. You you might I'm sure it's very
enjoyable. You just want to, you know,

(22:58):
spend some time in the pub with the mates.
But is that, does that need to be your driving force for your
week? Is that what you want to push
to? If you, if you look at that from
a zoomed out perspective over the next year, three years, five
years, is that all you want to do?
You want to live for the Friday afternoon, Saturday day,
whatever it is, drinking sessions in the pub just because

(23:21):
that's what they do. Or as I say, do you want to
start looking, you know, to better yourself and, and you
know, go to the pub, that's fine.
But those kind of people who that's all they want to do are
generally not people who have large aspirations and goals in
life. And there is nothing wrong with
that if that's what you want, ifthat's what you want, or if

(23:44):
that's what fulfils your desire.What I'm not saying that is
wrong or we're both I would say is saying is you need to align
with what you want and. Make sure that is what you want.
If you're listening to this podcast or watching a clip of
this this show, somewhere in thethe EFA, you have obviously

(24:09):
wanted more than what you've gotbecause that is why you're
you're sat here listening, isn'tit, you know?
Like the Plum chat post, there was lots of guys who got very
defensive with it and they they read your post as some kind of
arrogant comment slash attack onthem as a person.

(24:30):
Instead of the words that you say on the Plum chat, on the off
the tools group where it's the people in there who were looking
to get a little bit more out of life and business.
They were like, well, yeah, thatyou should know.
You should know, you know, you shouldn't.
Like you should have. If you're not, if you don't know
your numbers, then you shouldn'treally have a job.
You shouldn't really have a business.
You probably should have a job because it's fundamental and

(24:52):
it's all right. All the guys in the plum chat
one saying, well, why do I need to know my numbers?
I'm all right, That's all right.While things are all right, But
what about when they're not? What about if you you know what
dries up? You injure yourself, family
member becomes I'll if you don'tknow what your standard
operating costs are, how can youlike there might come a point in

(25:12):
time where you need to do the Burr minimum because of family
commitments, but you don't know what they are.
And it was an amazing, I won't say an amazing.
It was an interesting post to read and to go back to what
you're saying about surrounding yourself with and the energy
that you take from other people.I would bet that 10% of the
people in there who commented inthe same defensive way as a lot

(25:36):
of the others would doing that fuelled by those other people
commented. Whereas they'd have been, they'd
have been SAT, you know, let's say they'd have been someone who
would normally have made that kind of comment of what's it got
to do with you? Why do we need to know my
numbers? Had they been sat in a room with
some of the tools members and they may have, that thought

(25:57):
might have come into the head. But then there's five lads sat
around them saying, yeah, we need to know your numbers.
Really. Don't you like let's just let's
just scribble it down quick, fast on a piece of paper.
You've got your van, you've got your tools, you got your
insurance. You know, that's as long as
you've covered that, you're good.
That's that's at least a start into it and go, well, yeah, you
probably should know the basics,shouldn't you?

(26:18):
And then the mindset starts to move with it rather than but
again, that the defensiveness isin itself the sorry the the the
retaliation against your post isa defensiveness because they
don't know the numbers and internally they probably know
they should know them. But the two like.

(26:39):
So when you're overweight, isn'tit, you know, you're doing
something wrong, you know, but you're like, I don't get it, why
don't keep putting on weight? Yeah, probably a bit of a
triggering thing, but 90%, at least 90 to 95% of people are
overweight is through a product of their own doing.
Like I'm not saying you want to be walking around with six pack,

(26:59):
We've all got busy lives, a bit older, we've got kids, whatever
it is. But if you are really, really
overweight, can you like and youdon't have an underlying health
condition, it's because you're eating too much food for what
you're burning. Like it's not like no one's
being nasty by saying it. Like it's just the reality of
calories in calories. And we all do.

(27:19):
We have a lot of shit day and we're going to have that bar of
chocolate. But you have to accept that
that's your choice and you've done that if you like.
If you don't know your numbers and someone says you should know
your numbers, really that's justa fact.
Like because that was. My, my viewpoint was, I knew it
was, I knew it would be inflammatory, right?

(27:39):
Why I posted it. But for me, it's as fundamental
as drinking water every day, like if you're in business.
And I just wanted to see that that view, but I just wanted to
sort of test out that that that the the difference in the
mindsets of different groups of people and get a gauge to

(27:59):
whether my gut feeling of what how it would go would actually
transpire in it. And I was proved right, sadly,
you know that that was the way it went.
Yeah. So that anyway, I thought that
was an interesting example to toshare with the listeners because
everyone. Was in a nutshell really, isn't
it? Yeah, because like, like you've
said, the people in the after tools group who are like, say,

(28:22):
probably the same kind of peoplewho are listening to this
podcast and the people that wantto move forward and and grow.
I'm not that's you don't need tohave a A10 man team doing
3,000,004 million, 5 million a year of of turnover.
It just might they just might. Well actually I'd like to have,
you know, maybe couple ads working for me.
I don't maybe have to work quiteas much.

(28:43):
Maybe I can get someone answering the phone and that
that would be great for me. But to get to that stage, you
can't just do it through workinghard and being busy.
Like you've got to know, well actually, at what point can I
start to, to look, to take someone on?
And yeah, it's a, it's a very different kind of people.
And, and like you rightly said, that's generally that comes

(29:07):
from, it's probably not so much an internal thing.
It's probably just the people you, you surround yourself with
people saying like, like, say, use the pub analogy.
But those kind of guys probably don't know the numbers.
They probably just know that as long as I've got £100 in my
pocket come Friday afternoon, I'm good to go.
You know, mortgage is paid or whatever it might be, but the

(29:31):
yeah, the, the energy that's absorbed from the people in
those circles is, is everything really, isn't it?
Like because it's too hard to do, to go, to get to exactly
where you want to on your own? And we've spoke about that a lot
over the last sort of 24 hours of it's very hard on your own

(29:51):
and you need to lean on talk to absorb the energy from those
people around you. Last night's a prime example,
right? So in the day we were doing
business, right? So we were client and and client
and business relationship. Come the evening, it was just
two mates going out. We could have easily, easily

(30:12):
chosen to get drunk, you know, drink a load of drink, chat a
load of shit, you know, and, andhaven't had that sort of night.
But the energy from the day, theenergy that of our
personalities, our mindset, we knew, we knew this is a prime
time to sit down and talk about what we, what we want to

(30:34):
achieve, how we want to go forward in in the future.
And again, it comes down to the top, the person that was there,
doesn't it? You know, if that was an old
schoolmate of mine or whatever that I took out for dinner, it
could have gone a completely different route and probably
ended up ruining the the next day, you know?

(30:54):
Yeah, the the the people and theinformation you consume
basically makes you you become that.
So take a look at it and and to.Backtrack a little bit that that
can start like we were saying about the the school thing, they
didn't quite do very well in school.
So they stumble into a trade andinto apprenticeship and that's

(31:14):
the start of that journey of that learning team beliefs.
And you know, it's been quite a while since we was in school,
but I'm I'm sure it's probably maybe a little bit softer
nowadays because we live in a softer world.
But it's probably delivered in away where like, yeah, you're
probably not going to be suitable for uni.
I probably might be best if you get a trade.
That's that's a soft way of putting it, isn't it?

(31:37):
Whereas you go back a little bitfurther.
It's probably like, you know, yeah, you going to have to get a
trade, mate, because what? Else are you going to do?
Shit, in school, I deal with it like you're not going to be
suitable, you're never going to get into college or whatever it
is. And that, that we especially at
that age leaves a bit of a scare.
And again, I, I, I wonder, I'd have to assume rather that the

(32:01):
fact that I entered the industryat a later age allowed me to, to
not, not be sort of mad with that same brush kind of thing.
I, I didn't start doing it till I was 22/22/23.
So I was a little bit more sure of what I wanted, whereas if I'd

(32:22):
have done it since I was 16, then I know I would have been
hit with that same kind of thing.
I'm, you know, I'm not done wellin school.
I've been, I was told I'm not done well in school.
I'm not going to then be able togo to uni because I've not got
enough points nowadays. Is it like at the time it was I
wouldn't what I've not got enough qualifications, you know,

(32:42):
X number of GCS ES. So then you're thinking, well,
this is me then this is what I'mdestined to do now I'll just go
and fit boilers and and it is what it is I can do all right, I
can get some cash in hand and I'll do you know better than
having a job. I can earn way more money
working for myself as a gas engineer than going, you know,

(33:02):
trying to get through college and understanding up with a low
level kind of job anyway. But then that that's it.
The, the growth is, is stunted because of 1 little thing you
might have got told like I, I, you know, I've, I've not got
any. I'm no good with numbers.
I did crappy maths or I'm no good at business planning or
whatever it might be. And it, it starts from that

(33:22):
point. And most guys find it impossible
to pull themselves out of that. They just get that's it.
They're stuck in it like and as you said, they become accidental
business owners because it's so easy to become self-employed in
the trades. It's so easy like you said.
Before, yeah, like business, youknow?

(33:43):
Especially, you know, supposed gas is a little bit different
because of the coals, but in terms of plumbing, plumbing,
handyman stuff, fitting out, youknow, fitting outside taps or
whatever it is even which was talking about this morning, fit
in bathrooms, you don't actuallyneed a qualification.
You just need a need to put yourname out there and.
Just need some tools to do the job, you know what I mean?

(34:07):
It's very easy to dive into thatsort of stuff.
But then as I say that that's it.
Then you just you just get stuckin it.
And again, one thing you trying to tell your mentees about is
you need to take the time out tonot be busy just for busy sake.
Because without having that headspace, you will be stuck in

(34:27):
that same mindset constantly. I've just got to keep working.
Just got to get my head down andmaybe in the future I'll set
myself free and you know, maybe I can buy enough, enough to buy
a property or I just need to paythe mortgage down and then I
won't have to work as much because it's never you're never
primed for that thought process of actually, let's look into it.

(34:50):
Like say I, I was fortunate thatI had the time out of the
industry to be able to sit down and let's be honest, geek out a
little bit on the numbers. Like I think it's something
like, I haven't checked it as oflate, but I think last time I
checked it, 67% of gas engineersare over 55.
That's. Phenomenal.

(35:12):
That was a couple of years ago last to check that data, but
that like if you and then you can delve into that more and
something like every year, everythere's 4000 for every 4000 gas
engineers that leave the industry and retire or move
abroad or whatever it is, only 1000 come back in.
So that deficit's just growing. Year on year, isn't it?

(35:33):
And that's that doesn't, I didn't even get as far as having
the metrics of well, a lot of the guys that then come in go
down the renewables route. Gas buyers are going to be here
for the next, I would say at least 30 years because, you
know, renewables are not always suitable.
So then I'm thinking, well, there's only 1000 coming in for

(35:56):
every 4000 go in. So that's, that's, you know,
only 25% coming back. Then there's, you know, maybe
30% of them are going to renewables and they can actually
there's a lot of opportunity coming here.
Like what, what can you do with that?
But again, that, that takes thatdifferent perspective or mindset
to be able to look at that and think, well, actually there's an

(36:17):
opportunity here other than thinking, Oh yeah, I'll probably
just get busier. And you know what I mean?
It's you have to look at the actually how can I capitalise on
this opportunity now as there's going to be more and more work
required. But again, it's it's being able
to not think too small with it and you've got to.

(36:38):
So let's go into coaching mode here for a little while.
Let's let's just explore. So if you're sat there
listening, right and you don't know your numbers really, you,
you, you, you, you're slugging it out a little bit, you're
working hard, but doesn't that don't really feel like you're
progressing? You're sort of just treading

(36:58):
water. Where, what, what is your take
on where to sort of what to do next?
How do you, how do you get out of that funk and and move start
moving forward? What's your what's your advice?
So the first thing you need to do is to try and get yourself

(37:20):
out of the trenches for a periodof time.
I'm not saying a long period of time for like, you know, in an
ideal world, you say you want tostart taking half a day a week.
Let's say let's take your Mondaymorning or your Friday afternoon
to then sit down and make a listof things that like make a start

(37:43):
on your numbers for as you've said before, make a start on
your numbers. Look at where you want to get to
with the business, whether that's big team, couple of extra
guys, you just want to work less, you're happy with it just
being you. You want to try and take some
time to work, be able to work onthe business rather than

(38:04):
constantly working in the business.
The reality is there's always some time somewhere.
So whether it's a Friday afternoon where you'd normally
go for your drinks, it might be a night time thing, might be
where you'd normally slump in front of the telly to watch your
box set, There's always going tobe time you like.

(38:26):
Something Alex Hormozi always goes on and on about is that
people, even people with 9 to 5 jobs you spend still spend more
time out of work. OK, you need to sleep, you get
that, but you still more spend more time out of work than you
do in work. You've got your evenings, you've
got your weekends. There's always time to sit down,

(38:47):
grab a bit of paper, I'll grab your phone and just even just
starting by writing down where you want to be in a year's time,
five years time, 10 years time. It doesn't have to be a massive,
massive goals. Like I said before, you might,
you might actually think, yeah, I do want 10 lads working for
me. But then you might think

(39:07):
actually it'd be nice to just work, you know, let's say, you
know, be able to do the school run and the school pick up.
You might want to do that. So actually what's currently,
I'm out at 8:00 in the morning, I'm only home at 8:00 at night.
What do you need to change in your business in your life to be
able to do the school run starting with once a week, twice

(39:29):
a week? Again, that's a lot of that's
probably going to come through pricing or better time
management, maybe say no to customers, which is very, very
hard to do. And I'm going to stay in that
coaching mode. Something I've said to guys
who've come to me for advice is that you need to stop saying yes

(39:51):
to everything. My in my heating business is a
very simplified business model. And that has a knock on effect
in making things easier because it it does create more headspace
if you're doing everything like and there is going to be guys
out there who are doing. Outside taps, they're doing

(40:11):
bathrooms, they're doing full heatings.
First fixes, second fixes for builders, they're just saying
yes to absolutely everything. Again, write that down.
Is that what you want to do? Is that going to be sustainable
moving forward? Because it's very hard to scale
a business where you're saying yes to everything because
everything's different. Sorry, when it's just you and
you know where you're at, but how are you going to get a team

(40:34):
in place? How is the person in the office
going to be able to deal with the the vast difference between
some ringing up for a bathroom quote and some ringing up to ask
for have the boiler serviced? There's a there's a stark
contrast between the two and you've got to think again.
Like I said, we're looking at the numbers of engineers out

(40:56):
there. You don't really need to say yes
to everything anymore. Niching down is better for your
own headspace, but it's better as a business model anyway, in
my opinion. And that can create headspace if
you have a very simplified model, let's say just for an
example, because I'll use it as an example because it's what we
do. If your business is mostly

(41:17):
focused on boiler servicing, that's a standardised price, the
work is mostly the same. When someone's dealing with the
inbound calls and they're quoting out for them jobs, it's
pretty much a cookie cutter approach.
It's, it takes 60 to 90 minutes for a full strip down with
burner gasket changing and all that sort of stuff.

(41:40):
And it's this price. So we know how many can be done
in a day. We know how much we're going to
charge. It's really easy to do that.
So you're not filling all of your free time thinking, oh,
tomorrow I've got this and then I've got to do that.
I've got to pick this up. Standardised approach will start
to create that headspace. That's probably one of the core

(42:03):
things we both try and tell people to do.
If you want to, if you're tryingto do everything, you'll only
be, you'll never be excelling atit from a business perspective.
And you're just going to be yourheadspace is just going to be
gone. And we all we all struggle with
headspace in this game because it's just busy, busy, busy.
Especially in the the busier months.
It's just crazy, crazy times. You need to force on yourself

(42:26):
time to to work on the business instead of in it because in the
long term you'll be better off for it financially but
definitely with the the mental side.
Of I would add working on yourself as well.
And that concept to a lot of people sadly isn't understood.
And, and for me, it what the working on myself was what

(42:51):
unlocked the businesses. Does that make sense?
So I, I still remember it. My brother gave me it rich dad,
poor dad. It was the first self help, you
know, you personal development book that I, I've never even
heard of personal development. You know, it was like what,
what, what is this? But once I'd read that book and
then I listened to it as well, Iwas a different person.

(43:13):
It literally opened up a completely different pathway
that I didn't even know existed because yeah, it's, it's not the
most informative book, but for me it literally opened, opened
up that other door that then I walked through.
And since then, obviously I've, I've gone on and read and

(43:37):
listened and trained and, and been coached and coached other
people and, you know, and had gone down a completely different
path simply because fundamentally I worked on
myself. I was willing to put aside some
hours, read a book that I'd, I'dnever read a book, you know, as
a kid. I wasn't a reader.
I, I, you know it. Generally only takes the one as

(43:59):
well, doesn't it? It's like Pandora's box then.
Because once it's open, once yousee, oh, there's the path I was
on, but there is now this other doorway that I can open.
And once that's open and you look through and you're like, I
can't go back there. This is too light.
This is too there's too much, too much opportunity.

(44:20):
If I, if I. There's an abundance of
opportunity. Yeah.
I think it's like, I don't want to delve too deep into, you
know, bashing the government or the world or whatever you want
to say. But like, even if you just take
the UK government, they don't want everyone to be
entrepreneurs. They don't want, they don't want

(44:41):
everyone to have access to uncapped earning potential.
They would, they needs to be a workforce.
And that's fine for people who want that, but it's it's not
fine for people, everyone to think in the way we're that
that's the only choice. Yeah.
And again, the, the working for yourself thing, people often
think, well, this is my only choice because I, I'm not

(45:04):
suitable for a job, whether it'swhether you are neuro diverse or
whether you just somebody just can't deal with being tied down
into that job setting. But you need to delve into like
some too many people are thinking it's like who her that
personal development. That's a bit sounds a bit Hoo
ha, But it only has to start with just the one.

(45:25):
Book do you remember like the light bulb moment for you like.
Is there a? Specific or was it more of a
cumulative process for you? It was probably have to say
YouTube videos. I think for me rather than a

(45:46):
book. My mind came the other way
around. I've read plenty of development
type books but it did start withand it's we spoke about this
before. It's common for lads in the
trades, especially the ones who are doing a bit of everything,
to think property is the solution to my pension or my

(46:08):
retirement. So then.
Sort of connected to like the. Tool work, yeah, it's that.
Well, actually, if I can, if I can somehow buy a house because
of my skill set, I can do the house up at cost and I don't
have to. Like if I work, whereas I've
worked in an office and I didn'thave any tool skills, I'd have

(46:28):
to pay for it all myself and that wouldn't then be a viable
investment. Whereas if I can do it all
myself, then happy days. I can just chip away at it, do a
full eating on a day where you know, on a Saturday when I
whatever it is, and then get this house, stick a tenant in it
and then that'll build towards my retirement.
So that and that was the start of things to me.
That was where I thought my pathway would have to be.

(46:51):
I do predominantly emergency call out work.
There's days where because the, the, the hourly rate that you
got paid for that work was quitehigh because you have to be
ready to take the call and get there within 90 minutes.
So my logic at that point was actually, well, if I buy a
house, I'm doing a house up. You know what I mean?
I could be, you know, first fixing the heating system or

(47:12):
first fixing the back street bathroom.
The phone rings. I'm already in my work stuff.
I'm already in the van, put my tools back in the van.
I go do the job, I come back andI carry on with it.
That seems a logical thing, but the, it started with then start
looking online. What's, what's the best strategy
to, to, to deal with this? And then you still like the BRR
strategy, which is the buy, refurbish refinance strategy,

(47:36):
which is quite, this is the common one with tradesmen.
You can buy a house, you save upsome money, buy a house, let's
say a cheap house, 80 grand because it needs a load of work.
You renovate it, you then make it worth let's say 120 grand.
You then put a mortgage on it. The idea is that you pull most
of your money back out and you try to repeat the process

(47:57):
because you've pulled so much ofyour money out.
And that was where the the journey started.
I was convinced that would be mysolution to my problems.
But through constant more looking at stuff online, YouTube
videos and Googling stuff, I went a little bit more down the
route of, of, well, actually there's so many options when it

(48:18):
comes to things like you don't need to do the old school way.
And that was the start of the snowball effect then.
And then we'll actually, actually what, what's this about
like investment? What's this about debt and how
you can leverage that? And it just, it just went from
the basically, but like you say,it only needs to be 1 pivotal
moment. And that could just be, again,

(48:39):
to reference the, the interesting post on plum chart.
It could just be a different conversation with a different
person than what you're normallyaround.
Like that's, that's all it needsto start, whether it's just
going, you know, jumping on a, awebinar or watching a YouTube
video, or, you know, everybody should want to try and make the

(49:02):
most of of what they've got in their life, even if it's for the
benefit of of kids or, you know,you know, your partner, your
parents, whatever it might be, you might not have massive
aspirational gold, but everyone could do with more money.
Like if you, if I said to, you know, the guys in that group are

(49:23):
always, I don't need to know my numbers.
Why are you asking that? It's none of your business.
If you were to say to them, well, would you not like to set
your kids up later in life? Would you not like to retire
your mum because she's still working?
Would you like this lump sum of money to be able to do that or
would you like me to increase your earnings so that you can do

(49:44):
that? 99.9% of them would say yeah.
So if you've got it in your power to achieve that, why
wouldn't you strive to do that? That's that's the thing that
just them, one of them guys justhaving a conversation with
someone else would start them onthat journey to be, to think.
And actually, I only have to do a little bit of this or a bit, a

(50:07):
little bit of that and my life or my family's life will be
better as a, as a result of it. Like you say, it only needs to
be. There's such a small thing for
you as reading the Rich Dad Podad book.
For me, it was starting to Google about investment.
It's, it's only has to be a verysmall thing and there's so much

(50:28):
access nowadays that, you know, it's, we live in a different
world. You know, you, you carry a
computer in your pocket. You can pull it out and go
actually, how can I, how can I make myself a Better Business
owner in my plumbing and heatingbusiness?
What options have I got out there?
How can I make this better or how can I work less for it?

(50:49):
This this. I think patient is, is something
that as a, as a species, we're losing and I think a lot of
people tries to change but don'thave the patience to to let it
compound. Like if I look back at my my own
journey, nothing happened fast, nothing, you know, and the stuff

(51:14):
that did happen fast didn't last, you know, And it's such an
underrated skill, you know, and I, and for those that know Andy,
patience probably isn't one of his virtues.
You know, he wants to move quickly.
But in the last two to three years, being patient and

(51:41):
accepting that it ain't going tohappen tomorrow has put you
where you are, hasn't it? Did you know?
Like you couldn't have got whereyou are without that patience?
Even though you fight, you fought it, the patience of it.
But that ultimately has got you where you are, hasn't it?
Yeah, it's, it's not a fast moving industry anyway.

(52:04):
And yeah, you say ironically my business model is intrinsically
tied to a slower start with momentum building because we've
actively targeted a compound growth strategy, We've tagged
actively targeted recurring work.

(52:24):
So you know, safety certs, servicing things like that.
So you have to have the patienceto and that's again guys.
And again, most of us again, to use the heating industry is
generally chasing the the higherticket items such as boiler

(52:46):
installs, but there isn't generally a longer term benefit
from doing that unless you're going to then, you know, ensure
you stay on top of them service in that boiler, etcetera.
They're always looking at the now, like you say, it's that
lack of patience and the lack ofvision to say, well, actually in
if I, if I do this kind of strategy and I don't chase these

(53:09):
high ticket item items to get higher amounts of money right
now, we can grow something that's better longer term and
maybe less tied to yourself. But it's it's just like you say,
it's a lack of willingness to stick with a plan and have
confidence in the plan that withtime it's going to produce

(53:30):
something better a little bit later.
Yeah, No, I don't. Yeah, definitely agree.
Let's let's shift the conversation a little bit and
how important is looking after yourself in all of this?
Like you, you obviously you're, you're in good shape.
Have you always been in good shape?

(53:50):
So is it something that that you've just always had?
So from someone that has been very overweight, you know, I
wasn't blessed with that naturalability of like looking after
myself. I've had to really, really work
on becoming a healthier person, becoming a more vibrant person.

(54:12):
So for me it's that is the core changed, you know, if, if you've
got to change yourself physically and mentally for that
then to transpire into your business, into your personal
life, into your family, what what's your sort of experience
with that? Yeah, I am one of those guys who

(54:33):
thinks it all starts with with personal health.
For me, I've always been of thatmindset because my dad's always
been of that mindset. My dad played rugby for 30 odd
years and as even now at 70 years, 70 years old is in the
gym five days a week, it's it was just ingrained into me and

(54:56):
it was ingrained to my sister. My sister's a health fitness nut
as well. Me and my sister have done
hyroxes together, we've done other events together in mixed
doubles events because it's justalways been intrinsic to us.
Yeah, but the naturally there has been times where it's my
training has slipped when personal things have got in the

(55:20):
way. And like you've said it, it's
all intrinsic. So if you're training, let's say
you're training five days a week, you're up early and you're
training five days a week, the likelihood of you eating shit
for the rest of the day is massively reduced because you're
like, well, I'm, I'm training. What?
What what's the point? And conversely, if you're not

(55:41):
being able to not go in the gym at all, you're thinking I'm just
going what I want, what's the point?
Like they go hand in hand. Just as then the knock on effect
of all that, the feeling better within your body because you're
eating better, feeling better about how you look because
you're training and eating better, then build your

(56:01):
confidence. Your confidence then fuels into
how you, you know, like the, thesaying is of how you do anything
is how you do everything and that it, it starts the, the get
the, the momentum starts to build from that.
You can go as far into it or as little into it as you want.

(56:22):
Some people only need to just get out and do a, a walk and
that's enough to clear their mind and and that they can
attack the day. Some people need a bit more one
of those weirdos who gets in theice buff in the morning nowadays
because I've got, you know, a busy, busy home life and a busy
business and it needs a little bit more for me to get dialled

(56:45):
in and building a routine to segue a little bit into that.
I think the route. I do think a routine sets you
free before. We go on to routine because this
is, this is going to be like a very important part of today's
discussion. But I, so it was before your

(57:06):
time. So 20/17/2018, you probably
didn't know who I was back then.That was when I sort of started
to change my physical life. So I was 115 kilogrammes.
I think I'm only 5 foot 8. So I was a fat little fucker is
probably what most people calledme.
And I knew I was depressed. I was fucking just in a bad

(57:31):
place, you know, and obviously the combination of reading the
books and learning I I open thatthat pathway and I did I did a
series on online that I would post me working out at jobs,
right, and the amount of stick Igot for it.
It was unbelievable. People took the piss out of me
for still people still take the piss out of here.

(57:51):
I would do things like we'd be on a job and I'd get the stack
like boxes out and do like step UPS onto it and be like, look,
you can, I know we're all busy. I know life's busy.
At that point, I was working like 7:00 AM till 6:00 PM every
day, four kids, you know, I had no time and I wanted to sort of

(58:12):
showcase that you can do something even if it's little.
So I posted videos of me. He'd like doing step UPS on
doing star jumps next to the vanand like doing all, all, all
crazy stuff. But I the reason I mention that
is because I was severely overweight and prospects looked

(58:38):
absolutely shit and I had to make that change in some way.
So if you're sitting in the van listening to this and you're
like, I just haven't got the time.
I just can't. I just can't do it.
There is a pathway. You've just got to have
patience. You've got to find right.
Can I get up 20 minutes earlier and go for a walk?

(59:00):
Can I, while I'm at a job waiting for it to, to settle
and, and fill up, can I go to the back of the van and just get
a toolbox off and do 100 step UPS, you know, and then next
time do it carrying the toolbox in your hand and step.
Do you know what I mean? I know it sounds weird, right?
And he's like, well, fucking hell.

(59:20):
What, what, what what is that going to help?
If you did that every day and you managed to get 100 up and
down on onto a toolbox carrying a what, a 20 kilogramme tool
bag, you're going to see improvements.
You're going to see better energy and then that will lead
into them once you start. It's like a drug.
It is a drug. Our body releases dopamine and

(59:41):
and serotonin and and all of these different chemicals.
So it is self fulfilling, isn't it?
You've just got to get bloody started.
And that leads us onto routine. OK everyone, I think very rare.
Would you find someone that saysI can't improve my routine?
So what? What does that mean to you?

(01:00:04):
And what is it that that you have like implemented in your
life to sort of get some more structure in and get that
routine and and that that fulfils everything else?
So I think if you threw another post onto probably any forum
actually, or in any realm of life aside from money, if you

(01:00:27):
asked anyone what would they like more of, they probably say
time almost and everyone would say time no.
It's my one. My tagline is more time, freedom
and profit, you know? So to get more time, you have to
then start taking action and andcreating a structure to your

(01:00:48):
life because so many people and we all do it, waste their time
doing shit, whether it's yeah, binge watching a boxer and
obviously you all you always need your downtime.
But do you need to watch 4 episodes?
You know, can you watch? You do.
If it's like Peaky Blinders or Yellowstone, you have to, you
have to suck them in. But anyway.

(01:01:09):
But you could watch 3 tonight. We've we've all done it.
I'm I'm murdered for it myself. Like, but there's always a point
where you can watch one less episode and go for a walk
because then, like you say, the momentum builds.
And we've just spoke before about, you know, sitting down
and taking the time out to thinkabout if you're happy with

(01:01:32):
whether it's your life or your business or, you know, this kind
of work that you're doing. If you go for a walk, you can do
that at the same time. If you go for a jog, you can
think of this, you can think, well, actually, you know, I've
got them jobs this week. I don't really want to be doing
them jobs. I'm I've got too long in the
tooth for fitting radiators justfor for example, because I hate.

(01:01:52):
It he mentions it all the time. I think he really hates
radiators. Like I don't, I don't want to do
that anymore. How can I stop doing that?
Like do I, you know, I OK, well I need to get a guy who's shit
out of hitting radiators on the team and then that's, that can
be his jam. Or we don't do them for the next
6 months while we focus in on something else.

(01:02:13):
And by then I will be ready to take on an installer or whatever
it might be. It all just everything just
builds. So, but the thing with time,
everyone's going to say I don't have enough time to do that, to
build a routine, but a routine will inevitably give you the
time. It's like chicken and egg, isn't

(01:02:33):
it? It's like what?
What comes first? For me at the minute, I'm trying
to build a new routine. My business is ever changing.
I've got new members of staff starting over the next month or
so, both in the office and on the tools, so things are taking
more of a shift. But for me at the minute it's

(01:02:54):
getting trying to get up before the kids.
One of my my twins has additional needs.
So his sleep pattern is very inconsistent.
So it's not always super easy. Sometimes you need to flex a
little bit, but it's generally trying to get up before the kids
and get the ice bath in and get a, a decent breakfast in.

(01:03:15):
So for me, that's some scrambledeggs or some poached eggs,
something like that. But the, for me personally, and
it isn't for everyone, but the ice buff really clears my, my
brain. Plus it's the challenge of doing
it. It's, it's not nice when you get
in, but it's nice after this. I like to talk about the
dopamine thing. There's something like a 250%

(01:03:38):
increase. So cocaine uptake gives you the
same dopamine response as doing 3 1/2 minutes in the in an ice
bath? Yep.
So you've got 2 choices guys. You either go and sniff a load
of cocaine or you get in an ice bath for 5 minutes.
Like come. On Don't be the former Yeah, I.
Definitely don't do that one, but that's the level of chemical

(01:04:01):
reaction though. That a simple thing of the
route. Sorry, I jumped.
In there, sorry, go and carry onwith what you do, but it's right
because that's that's puts you in the in the right frame of
mind. And you can find the extra time
to do that if you're struggling to get up in the morning.
And I'm one of those I'm, I'm a night owl as my standardised

(01:04:23):
thing. But since having the boys, it's
hard to shift to go into bed earlier because I can't like my
brain is the most switched on. We spoke about this yesterday
and it was evident when we went out for dinner.
My brain is the most switched onin the evening.
I'm always groggy in the morningso.
Testament to that because at 10:00 Andy was sitting down

(01:04:44):
ready for another 2 hour chat about plans.
Well, you're. Not I'm just going to go in
opening a new page on me. So if you're like that, then you
need to try and hack it. So that might be like I said
before watching one last episodeon the box set, going to bed a
little bit earlier. So then you can get up a little
bit earlier and then you're a bit more ready to attack the

(01:05:07):
day. If you're waking up groggy every
day and slogging through the daybecause you've only been to bed
late, then you are always going to be stuck in the trenches and
you're never going to be able topull yourself out and do
something. Start the journey that Hussein
before of you know, finding thatpivotal moment, whether it be

(01:05:27):
reading something like rich Dad,poor dad or, you know, stumbling
stuff online or changing what you're doing out there or
changing your pricing structure.So you can shave 1.
Even if you just opt your pricing by £5 per service, for
example, and that's you lose what equates to one job a week,

(01:05:48):
but you'll take home is probablya little bit more.
But even if it was the same and you're shaving that one job of
of a week, that's the school run.
Yeah. You just a walk or an ice bath
or whatever, whatever you want to do.
But if you're shaving that time,it could be done enough.
A bit more time, just like say spend with the kids.
It could be anything. And it's all comes back to

(01:06:13):
starting with that mindset. If you, if you've got that clear
mind, healthy body, it's all intrinsic.
If you're not charging enough, rushing around during the day
eating a pie while you're first fixing your pipework, like
you're never going to be primed to get the best from yourself in
your life. And you know to be plenty of

(01:06:35):
guys thinking, fuck that, I'm fine, I'm doing all right.
But it's when you're not when something bites you in the ass,
whether it's your health bites you in the ass because a. 1000
problems until we have one health problem.
Yeah, you know, chomping that pie or whatever it is while
you're doing, while you're working, doing that, rushing

(01:06:57):
around just to get it done. It's all right when you're in
your 20s, but then it starts to catch up with you.
Like I say, I'm not trying to belike some sort of health
advocate thing. It's more the routine thing that
I'm trying to trying to push. And if you're just constantly
rushing around like mad because that's all you think you have to
do, then surely you must have to.

(01:07:19):
You can, you can know it. You know within yourself that
that's not sustainable and you should be able to achieve more
from life. If you're a shit up installer or
a shit up service and repair engineer, there must be a part
of you inside that thinks I can do more with, with what I've
got. Like, you know what I mean?

(01:07:40):
I if you're running around doing£40 gas, search for a letting
agency of all those jobs that you do, there's going to be some
of them that the, let's say again, use the letting agency.
There'll be some of those landlords, and all landlords are
a tricky conversation, but bear with me.
There'll be someone in that mix who wants a better level of

(01:08:00):
service than what you're what you get in.
And that's, yeah, you've just got to think and not think.
You've got to believe that you can do more than what you've
perhaps always known, or probably more relevant, what
you've always been perhaps told because of the people you're
surrounding yourself with. When I think of routine, I know

(01:08:23):
when I I again it comes back to patience because I see so many
people that I work with or have worked with try to change
everything at once and that comes down to patience.
The the best bit of advice I cangive about changing your
routines and doing things is do it one thing at a time.

(01:08:45):
So don't set up yourself to fail.
So don't go, all right, tomorrow, I'm going to get up an
hour earlier. I'm going to read half an hour
of a book. I'm going to go for 1/2 an hour
run, and then I'm going to get in the ice bath and then I'm
going to cook myself a normal, ahealthy breakfast.
If you try to do all of that change, if you've done nothing

(01:09:07):
up till today and you decide right, that's tomorrow is going
to be my morning routine. I can almost guarantee that
within four to five days you're not going to stick it.
Whereas if you have the patienceto go right, do you know what
I'm going to do for the next week?
I'm going to wake up 20 minutes earlier.
And in that 20 minutes I'm goingto take the time to prep a

(01:09:30):
healthy breakfast to start my day.
So that's just one change. And then you do that for a week
or two and then you go, right now what I'm going to do is I'm
going to go 20 minutes earlier than that.
And in that extra 20 minutes that I've now gained, I'm going
to get straight up. I'm going to go for a walk as
the new edition. And then I'll do what has now

(01:09:53):
become the normal of prepping your breakfast and eating your
breakfast. And if you do that slowly and
wait another couple of weeks, before you know it, you've now
got two key elements of your morning routine tied up.
And then you layer in another bit.
If you want to do, you know, youmight find that that's enough
for you. You know that that that little
change might be the pivot momentthat swing swings the pendulum

(01:10:15):
to get you focused in and, and doing more.
But it comes down to that patience of of changing small
things. You are where you are, not
because of who you are, because of what you've done.
So all of your habits up to today, you standing there in
front of me now you're the sum result of your habits over the

(01:10:38):
last 20 years? Yeah, 10 years, whatever time
frame, right. So you're not going to wake up
tomorrow and change everything overnight.
It's not. Possible to build a habit?
Would they? Yeah, they reckon 20.
Is it 28 to 60 days depending onthe type of personality you've
got or something? So if you are listening to this,

(01:10:59):
when you are listening, because I'm not talking to myself,
someone's listening somewhere, Ihope what start today.
What can you do between now? So whatever time of day it is
that you're, if you, even if you, it's 10:00 at night and
you're listening to this, what can you do today that you
haven't done before or what you,you maybe haven't done for a

(01:11:20):
long time? Do something different and build
on that momentum, please. Because it really sounds simple
and sounds easy, but it's, it isin a way, but it isn't in the
other way because we as a culture have self-discipline

(01:11:41):
problems, you know, and, and please, I, I, I, honestly, I, it
won't change your life tomorrow,but it will slowly, slowly
change what is going on internally, externally.
And then that plays into how youshow up into your family, that
shows up in how you provide for your business and, and, and what

(01:12:04):
you do and what, what do you have on the horizon for your
routine? Like it sounds like you've got
your morning one sort of nailed in and are you are you layering
in more onto that or are you quite content where you are and
you're going to look at other areas to sort of implement some
routine? Yes, well, training is the next
thing for me at the minute. While I do manage to find,

(01:12:26):
always find the time to do it, it's not as structured as I
would like it because we are in this strong growth phase of the
business. So I am a believer of like, if
you can train again, this is something my dad's always pushed
like train in the morning beforeyou do anything else.
Because then there's always challenges that arise in the

(01:12:50):
day, especially in the industry that we're in.
There's always going to be challenges that arise that are
going to either make you discouraged to do it or they're
just going to get in the way. Especially obviously then when
when we get to silly season, things tend to build through the
day and the jobs tend to stack. So the next thing for me, and

(01:13:11):
this is when I've got the next member of staff who's who's
going to join the inside the, the, the office, the next office
team member that's starting, it's going to remove my need to
be into the office early in the morning.
And yeah, the next thing for that is going to be a a, to be

(01:13:33):
consistently training in the morning, whatever that happens
to be. I do a bit of everything to be
honest with you. So whatever that happens to be,
whether it's going for a run or or whatever.
But then again, that it just builds from that with that
clear, you're ready to attack the day.
It doesn't. As I said before, it doesn't
have to be going doing a high rock session.

(01:13:56):
It doesn't have to be doing a Sprint.
It just what works for you. If you can just get up and do a
walk, that's that's better than not doing 1, isn't it?
Ultimately. And then in the realms of
business, you want to try and dothe same thing.
Really don't you want to try andstart to build that routine that
isn't just going out working? If it's if it's like you say,

(01:14:19):
chopping off a episode at night,going to bed half an hour
earlier. If you value that downtime at
night, transfer it into the morning.
If you want to go to, if you cango to bed 30 minutes earlier,
get up 30 minutes earlier, whether that's getting up before
the kids or if you've not got kids, it's just getting up 30
minutes earlier anyway. And then use that time

(01:14:42):
constructively, but in a different way.
So then, you know, have your breakfast, have your coffee or
whatever it is. And then instead of using that
time in, in the evening prior toto binge watch, get a notepad
out and do what we said before. Just if you could change, if you
could make one thing better in the next 30 days, 60 days in the

(01:15:04):
business, what would it be? And it might be, like we said
before, if we can get rid of radfitting or it could just be
making a little bit more money because, you know, I'd like to
go on holiday in 6-12 months time.
I want to do the school run. Like we said before, write it
down, write down what you want to do and write down what needs
to be done to be able to achieveit.

(01:15:25):
So whether that's making a little bit more money this month
or, you know, whatever it might be, just make that as a little
start. What, what would, what small
thing would I like to change? And how can I, how can I do it?
And that that can be enough kindof that can be the catalyst.
Again, it sounds simple, but whydo not?
Why does no one do it? Or or not?

(01:15:47):
No one but you know what I mean.Why would it so many not choose
not to do it in? This game, it's generally just
being busy because you're busy, isn't it?
Like because you don't, you don't want to, you don't want to
walk away from the money. And like, most guys feel like by
not being out working all of thetime, they're leaving money on
the table, even though taking a step.

(01:16:11):
Like sometimes I love that analogy of sometimes you've got
a slow down to speed up. And it's so true in this
industry, you know, this time ofyear.
So we've just rolled into June. Now June and July are
statistically the quietest months of the year for heating
for the heating industry. Now is the time to get going if

(01:16:32):
you're going to build a routine.I'll try something new or start
thinking a little bit more on a different scale or even a
different angle. Now is the time to do it.
Come October, November, December, you know, life
becomes. Very, very wild.
And you know, you naturally things will drop off because

(01:16:52):
again, you have got to ride the wave sometimes.
But if you've built that stronger routine through the
summer, OK, you might not be able to then train five days a
week when it's December, But even if you're doing two or
three, it's still way better than.
Zero that used to be. But and again, that or even you

(01:17:13):
might that write down one of those things on that piece of
paper, maybe spend an hour less in the pub with that, with that
particular group. Or, you know, maybe spend that
hour with the kids instead of going straight to the pub from
that last job on a Friday, you know, go and do, we'll see the

(01:17:34):
kids for an hour, or I'll do theschool run and then I'll, I'll
go out, whatever it might be. Or it could then evolve from
that of actually maybe like you said before about the circle of
people you surround yourself with.
Maybe I want to start exposing myself to people, not in that
kind of way, like giving myself a bit more exposure to people

(01:17:55):
who have a better quality of mindset.
So again, to use them to groups that used before, you might be
someone who's in a group such asPlum chat who can see those kind
of posts that's very much just focused on being on the job.
And when someone like yourself prompts that, you know, you need
to know your numbers essentially.

(01:18:16):
And everyone's saying, well, whydo we need to know numbers?
No, I don't, I'm fine. Just migrate yourself over to
the off the tools group and readthat.
Even if you just read the same post, read the same post, look
at the kind of comments and if you can hand on heart after
reading both of them objectively, both of the read

(01:18:37):
all the comments on the posting plum chart.
Read all the comments on the posting of the tools and tell me
if you can hand on her and say the attitude of the people in
plum chart is better for in lifeand in business and as a person
is better in that than that, then pull yourself back out the
group. But I doubt anyone can do it

(01:18:57):
when there's people in there say, well, yeah, you should know
your numbers if you want to, If you want to make your kids lives
better, your own life better, your partner's life better,
whatever it might be, just create a Better Business and or
work a bit less, make a bit moremoney people.
When the people are saying things like that, you know,
that's better. That's just better.
And if that's the kind of peopleyou want to surround yourself

(01:19:19):
with, spend more time in there and look and read some of the
stuff because there's most of the people in those kind of
groups, those more development focused groups are going to give
you stuff that's going to betterthemselves.
And the shit reality of it is ifsomeone's like, what is it?
A drowning person will always try and drag you down with them

(01:19:41):
kind of thing. And I think there's a lot,
unfortunately, there's a lot of people out there like that.
There's people who because they don't know their numbers and I
say that we keep going on about this post, but it's so relevant
because they don't know their numbers.
They then choose to be defensive, like I said before,
and then attack you back saying,well, why do I need to know my

(01:20:03):
numbers? And why is it any of your
business instead of the the flips out of it and saying, you
know what, even the for the people who were in off the off
the tools group who genuinely didn't know the numbers well,
like. Oh yeah, I don't know them.
I know I should. I had hundreds of people

(01:20:23):
download the spreadsheet that I put together that went with that
post. So it just goes to show, you
know, that there was a lot of people that actually were like,
yeah, shit. You know, I, I, I should
actually probably know some basic things here and, and that
we're using that as just a very good example, but that can be

(01:20:45):
applied across all aspects of your business and life can't.
It, yeah. And that can be that little
starting moment, just just changing.
It does, like you said before, it doesn't have to be the people
you physically you surround yourself with, because that
doesn't have to start on such a big scale.

(01:21:05):
If you like, if you still like going that the pub on a Friday
with that gang with that group of people and you know, doing 10
pints and then going home and you love doing that and you
don't want to change it. You don't have to.
You can still do that if you want, just you can be on an
online space. If you then once you've done
that, then you go and sit at home and scroll social media.
Just dip your toe in the water of of other groups.

(01:21:29):
That brings me on to an amazing story.
Right? So I used to listen to Radio 1
every morning. What was his name?
Joe. No chunky guy.
Joe Moy Moy no, no Chris Moyles,yes Chris Moyles.
So my routine was go and get coffee, chocolate muffin every

(01:21:53):
morning, listen to Chris Moyles as I'm driving around.
And then I think it was Scott, someone that come on after him.
And back in like 2016 time, I started switching out, listening
to the radio to listening to audio books and podcasts around
business and personal development.
And that was just a simple change from listening to music

(01:22:19):
to listening to some educationalmotivational information.
And the reason I bring it up is because not only I did it help
me massively, The Apprentice at the time was a young lad,
absolute top, top guy, kickboxer, you know, big strong
lad. Now.
He messaged me recently and he was like, Wayne, I just want to

(01:22:41):
say thank you. And I was like, what?
What For me, he was like all of those audio books and podcasts
that we listen to drive him round.
He said he's only like 2223. Whatever he was, he started with
me when he was 15. The industry worked for him.
He went off on a different path,but it even affected him.
He took the time to message me and thank me for basically

(01:23:04):
making him listen to this stuff because he said, he said it
changed his life. It changed his whole perception
on what is possible and what is achievable and he now owns his
own. I think he's got a couple of
rental properties. He's absolutely machine like
chiselled, you know, he's lookedafter himself.

(01:23:24):
He's, you know, he's absolutely smashing it.
And yes, he might have done that.
Of course he might have gone down that route.
He might have had the success that he's having, but he felt
that it played a big part. And I know personally it played
a huge part because those hours driving around were the people I

(01:23:45):
was surrounding myself with. I could have listened to Talk
Sport or Chris Moyer was in the morning.
They would have been the people I was surrounding myself with.
But instead I chose Audible books, I chose podcasts around
all different, like some fun podcasts.
So they're not even business related, but they're talking
about things that I'm interestedin and somewhere obviously

(01:24:05):
educational around marketing andsales and and systems and
automations. And, and yes, it doesn't have to
be in person. It doesn't have to be on social
media. It can just be what is it?
What is going into your ear? That's a good point now because
you know, there's so much time spent driving around in the van

(01:24:26):
or I was going. Through, I was going through, I
would say four to six hours of content a day when I was out in
the van, listening in the van. Then I'd have an Earpod in, you
know, and, and I, I dread to think how many hours I've

(01:24:46):
actually spent listening when you could have just listened to
music. Yeah, you could have just
listened to some politics show or, or whatever, you know, and I
understand if that's your interest and you like that there
has to be an element of that. But if you could just squeeze in
one hour a day, you know, we allhave wireless headphones, We all
have vans that can, can play through Bluetooth.

(01:25:08):
You know, there's no reason why you couldn't get an hour's worth
of different content into your brain and then you're just
seeing life in in a completely different way.
The momentum will probably buildif there's if there's a tiniest
part of you, like we said before, there's a tiniest part
of you that thinks you want a little bit more from your life.

(01:25:29):
Just start by doing something like that, like trying is trying
to look at look at your daily routine and look at like, you
know, great point there with thetime in the van or time on site
of your if you're on a job whereyou don't need to interact with
another trade or a customer, stick your Airpod in, just put
one in. And then if someone, if they

(01:25:50):
speak to you, yeah, put one in or the the van in my opinion are
always going to be the best show.
Some guys might be job hopping, but there's going to be plenty
of guys who might drive an hour to a job.
There's an hour. So that's a long time.
And like you say, you don't haveto be in person.
You can't do any physical activity like you're driving

(01:26:11):
India, you know, But you can consume better information.
Or it could be, you know, it'd be a podcast, it could be an
audio book, you know, you could put.
Mainly the Off the Tools podcast.
Obviously you know that will fill up hundreds of hours for
you. There's some, yeah, there's some
bangers to be fair. And that that can just, you need

(01:26:32):
to find the spark. So you might, you're not be able
to do audio books or podcasts, but you know, you might be
murder for scrolling social media.
If you're spending all your timeon the forums that are very much
focused on the on the tools kindof stuff.
Have a look at other forums thatare more focused about business

(01:26:55):
and being, you know, the back end stuff off the tools, whether
it's systems or whatever. Just to have another look at
that side of things, rather thanbe like, I've just got massive
amounts of respect for the lads that want to be the absolute
best engineer they can be. But the potentially unfortunate

(01:27:16):
reality of things is being a phenomenal engineer is just not
enough. Unless you can find a job role
where that company really, really values the fact that
you're a phenomenal engineer andpays you accordingly for it.
And that's great. But just being a phenomenal
engineer on your own, working for yourself is not enough that
you don't get rewarded enough without building the the bigger

(01:27:39):
picture around it. It doesn't have to be, like I
said before, it doesn't have to be having a team, you know,
building a bigger business and having a team out and on the
tools and a back end team. You just want to be the best
version of you and be paid accordingly.
Then it requires a little bit more.
So it's going to put it and that's going to require some
education. If you're if you're all of your

(01:28:00):
focus and education has been on being the best engineer and
having the best equipment, etcetera, etcetera.
You're going to have to pivot a little bit of that focus onto
some of the back end developmentor personal development side of
things outside of the realms of just getting better and better
on the tools. And that's just the world that

(01:28:22):
we live in. You know, we spoke last time
about, you know, people can buy something on Amazon and it'd be
there the same day that and that's the world that we live
in. People just being doing a really
good job is not enough because most people don't generally know
the difference between a good job and a bad job or an an
average job. A boiler service is a boiler

(01:28:43):
service. OK.
A stripped down by this is a service is a stripped down by
the service. Whether the heat exchanger
inside looks like it's been polished with Brasso or it's
just clean enough to do its job makes no odds to the customer.
Whereas all of the back end stuff is what people see
nowadays. So if you do a good job, it
doesn't have to be an absolutelyamazing job, but if you do a

(01:29:06):
good job and stack the back end stuff around it, you'll be more
successful than the guy who's absolutely amazing and he's he's
polishing his pipe works and allthat sort of stuff.
The value comes from the rest ofthe stuff.
And just to get involved in learning the rest of that.
It starts with something outsideof the realms of just being

(01:29:28):
immersed on the tool side of things.
Like, you know, we spoke about, you know, people you surround
yourself with online and offline, The things that you
absorb, the content that you absorb, the things that you
listen to are the things that you read and the conversations
that you have. So yeah, just take a step back.

(01:29:50):
I think is, is take a step back or take a step out of what
you're doing from day-to-day andjust have that little think
about, well, actually the peopleI'm surrounding myself with the
right people. And again, like you said before,
it's not about walking away fromthem people.
It's about potentially adding some people who are maybe more

(01:30:11):
those goals are more aligned with yours.
And then maybe not so much limiting the time you spend with
the people whose goals don't allow me yours, but maybe just
being less absorbing of that of that environment and trying to
just pick up on the little things that are going to propel

(01:30:32):
you forward. And as we keep saying, that's
that's just it going to, that's probably enough to just get the
snowball moving. Yeah.
And and that that's when the once that snowball moves, it
gets easier. Because that's all that happened
with me. Like I said last time, I was
just the guy doing emergency call at work.

(01:30:54):
Just do an average at best engineer.
I'll say that until I'm blue in the face.
I'm an average at best engineer.OK, at service and repair, but
it was just that little thing ofactually, you know, less,
there's less engineers in the world in the, in the country,

(01:31:15):
there's more houses, there's more people.
How can that how can that be capitalised on?
And then again that, that ball rolling.
And again, most guys are probably to to go off topic a
little bit more, most guys are probably not using software.
Just using software in itself will buy you back way more time

(01:31:41):
than it costs. So even if you're someone who
spends, let's say you might spend 3 hours a week sending
invoicing and quotes, if you invest in some software, then
the software's going to get you those to at that time back if
you want to use it doing more work on the tools.

(01:32:03):
You can use it do more work on the tools if you want to use it,
spending time with your family, use it spending time with your
family, but spending a little bit on the back end stuff will
gain you way more time in in thebusiness to to to use as you see
fit. So I can say whether it's you
want to go and earn more money or you want to spend more time

(01:32:25):
on yourself, then you have the choice.
But that's just one, one thing that one of the first things
that I realised, because I'd sayI'd, I'd old schooled it for a
long time and just been out doing the work.
It was only when I'd started on that journey I started to see,
well, actually, there's, there'sjob management software.
It isn't that expensive for whatit is.

(01:32:47):
We don't live in a world of paper certs anymore.
Let's put something in place that is going to save me having
to sit down filling out a cert or it's going to save me having
to like if you use service Mate as an example, the one of the
facilities that's built into service Mate is that you can
take a payment on site before you've even left site.

(01:33:09):
They can pay. If your engineers are using like
for example, I was using an iPhone Max on the site, then
they it has the tap to pay feature on it.
So for anyone who's having the having to spend time sending out
invoices and chasing payments, if you implemented a software

(01:33:31):
like service Mate, you can be onthe site, you can complete the
job, customer can tap to pay straight onto service Mate, pay
on the phone and it's done. And then that there's a, there's
a series of events that then happened then where it
automatically reconciles with your accounting software, saves
you some more time. You know, some guys might be
elevating themselves a little bit and I know a few lads like

(01:33:53):
this, they might a customer might ring up, they book a job
in, they will then manually sendthem a text to confirm that
they're booked in for a particular day and time.
And then manually on the day that the job is when they're
setting off to to to go to that job, they might manually send
them a text service mate does that automatically.

(01:34:15):
So again, it's more time saved, more headspace.
So this. It comes back to mindset though.
You know how many guys I speak to and you come across it too,
Andy, that see it as an expense.They're like, I'm not paying
that. I'm not paying out that much
money for it. When in reality, if you was to

(01:34:36):
spend that little bit of money, save that bit of time, guess
what you can do with that fucking time?
You can use that time to improveyourself, you know and find that
extra bit of space in your in your life that you that you need
to implement the routines that you want to do.
It all connects. Doesn't it?
And again, like you say, that's,that's a mindset thing generally

(01:34:57):
because you're, if you've come up from, like I said before,
you've been trained by the old guy.
He's like, well, I've always just used search.
What's the problem? But it's like, you know, to
really to, to super simplify thenumbers.
If you can buy a software that costs you for a figure £100 a
month, but it saves you an hour a week, like what do what do you

(01:35:19):
want to do? Like you can do go and do one
job for the one of the weeks andcover the costs.
Like like what as well, on top of all the other impressive
things that it can do that makeslife easier, like sending
service reminders and things like that.
Why would you not just at least have a conversation with someone
who's using the software? So like I say, if you like, pull

(01:35:42):
yourself out with the groups where people are saying, no, I
don't don't want to spend that. And again, there's like you
said, I see it time and time again.
And it always amazes me when people say, oh, looking at
getting, getting a software, it's £10 a month, I don't want
to be doing that. Or it's or it's £100 a year.
I don't really want to justify that or I can't justify that.
And but it's but because it's that short sighted view of I

(01:36:05):
work. Whereas if you're in, if you're
in around the right group of people, whether it be off the
tools group or another group, ifyou're around those kind of
people who've been using software for years, they're just
going to say I don't see how youcan run a business in 2025
without software. But it's amazing how all of
these conversations link back towhat you surround yourself with.

(01:36:27):
You know, if you're hearing people like us say if you do
that and you can save X amount of hours and use those hours,
whether for manage monetary value, you know, if you want
more money, use them hours savedto earn more money or.
You can go on and on. It's like the VA thing, isn't
it? You know, using a call, using

(01:36:49):
someone else to handle your calls that people say, oh, I
don't want the expense, I'll just save money and do it
myself. But again, if, if you save
again, just for a #3 hours a week by using someone else to
answer your calls for you, but it only costs you £100, then

(01:37:10):
again, like you said, what can you do?
You can go out and earn more, more money than the person that
has cost you because we can makegood money out on the tools.
And there's certain aspects of the game are much easier and
cheaper to outsource. Again, limiting beliefs and
mindset like so so. But it has to like you say, it

(01:37:32):
has to start somewhere. And the easiest thing to do or
the two easiest things to do is control what you absorbing, what
information you're absorbing. So whether that's switching off
the radio in the news and tryingto podcast or inaudible and the
content that you absorb visuallyas well.

(01:37:53):
So let's for this reference callit social media and the forums
that you're in, just just pivot it and try it.
And like I said before, just tryit, like just add yourself to a
group where it's people that aren't just hyper focused on the
tool side of the, of the industry and get involved with
some of the people that are a little bit more about the

(01:38:15):
business side of things and the growth or just making a better
version. And as I keep going on about it
doesn't have to be, you know, say I don't want the hassle of
staff. It's, it's, it's a nightmare.
Doesn't even have to be that youcan just be the best version of
a sole trader you could possiblybe.
And that like, you know, I I've said many times with you, you're

(01:38:35):
going to like just if I was to decide to be a sole trader
tomorrow and just go and work onmy own, I still would not do it
without software and someone to answer the phone.
Yeah, because it. Because of the time that it buys
you back, doesn't it? And it can just be that and if
you if that perks your interest,go and join a group where people

(01:38:56):
are talking about that kind of thing.
People say I'm happy working on my own.
I like working on the tools. I don't like answering the phone
and I don't like doing invoicing, quotes, writing stuff
down, filling out paper certs. I don't like doing any of that.
But I love being on the tools and I love being on my own.
And that's that's all I want, but I don't want to be doing the
other stuff. What are my options?

(01:39:16):
And people just come straight in, get some software, get a
call handling person. And then you can, you don't have
to be checking your phone while you're on a job.
You can be laser focused and getstuck in because I had imagined
you say to, to guys, what's the biggest bug burn?
It's like we're dealing with thephone.
Like, you know, I'm stuck in on an install.
So I'm, I'm, I'm in the zone, you know, I'm lasering up laser

(01:39:39):
level in my pipes and then my phone rings.
I've got to answer it though, because I don't want to miss a
job. So I answer the phone and then
it's, you know, Mrs. Jones from down the road and she starts
saying, oh, oh, this, I've got this, this and this.
And I'm out of the van. I'm writing stuff down, 20
minutes pass and I've got to go and start again then and I've
got to try and get back in the zone.
If you don't have to do that, you can going to be more

(01:40:01):
productive. You're probably going to finish
earlier, probably going to do a better job.
And have less pressure as well, just less stuff on your
shoulder. Most of us don't like answering
the phone, so it's but again, aswe keep saying, it's just it
starts with the people that you surround yourself with.
Yeah, definitely does. Definitely does what?

(01:40:24):
What else did you want to talk about?
I don't know, you could go on and on and on.
Can we just yeah, how options for people really.
I mean, there's probably people probably don't know where to

(01:40:47):
start. And I know we've said before you
can start with Audible podcast or whatever, but like, what
about the people who are too distracted to do things like
that, who maybe need a little bit more, a little bit more
guidance? People who are so feeling so

(01:41:08):
like lost in the realms of business, who need a little bit
more of a guiding hand. What sort of what would you
suggest for them? So I, I've briefly touched on
it, but like making small changes and some of those small
changes would be to, to, to comeand find groups like off the

(01:41:32):
tools, you know, get involved ina new community that has a
different mindset to the one that you're currently spending a
lot of time in. I, I, I, I genuinely feel like,
like, for example, the off the tools Facebook group, right?
Completely free, right? There's no charge, You know,
it's just a safe place where youcan ask questions, you can hear

(01:41:55):
other people's opinion, you can start to, to change your
perception. I, I genuinely believe that that
for a lot of people can be the key in the door, not necessarily
going to be the door open, but it's going to unlock it.
And then if you're hungry and ifyou're inquisitive, then you can
walk through that door, you know, and, and then the world

(01:42:17):
is, is your oyster from there, isn't it?
Would you? Would you agree or?
Yeah, that's it. And it's like you say, it's a
free, there's so much information is free nowadays,
why would you not want to at least just cast your eye over it
and like, you know, have a look at the people in who are in
those kind of groups and what kind of mindset they've got.

(01:42:41):
Like I say, there's probably very few lads out there still
out there, Grafton who are completely happy with their
life. Handy choking say we record live
because. I tickle, tickle my throat who
are completely happy with the life.
And like I said, they could be happy with the money but not

(01:43:03):
happy with the time that they'respending on the jobs or out on
the tools. Or it could be the vice versa.
They could be like, well, actually I only work a few days
a week, but I could do with a bit more money.
Then you need to have these conversations with people who've
probably been there before. Or going through it.
Yeah, and like you say, there's there's how many members are in

(01:43:24):
enough tools? It's 5000.
There's plenty of people in there that can give you some
advice. And yeah, like, like you said,
the likelihood is people something, there's be people in
there who are in probably almostthe exact same position as you
or they've already been through it.
And that's where then the real advice comes from.

(01:43:45):
You know, I've had, I have people, I've had Zoom calls with
people who've like, well, you know, I'm doing, I'm saying yes
to everything, but I'm just, I'mspread too thinly.
I'm not sure what I want to do moving forward.
And then you can start to look at, well, actually, are you
making as much money from your bathrooms as you are from your

(01:44:08):
boiler installs? Or, you know, are they taking up
too much of your time? What, what was the, the points
that aren't working for you? And you can then start to work
towards creating that kind of life that they want.
When it comes to the, the business side of things, like I
said, there's plenty of lads wholove being on the tools, but

(01:44:28):
they might not like certain aspects of it, but they don't
know where to start with gettingrid of them.
Or I've got to do the bathrooms because it keeps me through the
summer. But then it's like, well, what
do you do in the winter? We do a lot of servicing and
repairs. Well, have you then can you then
work towards, can you get a software such as me, I don't

(01:44:49):
know, maybe Sales Lion where it allows you to track when you've
done the services and you can then look to bring, you can do
like say a busy winter of servicing.
Then as you roll into the summermonths, you can create an offer
because you can see when those services is due.
You can contact them and start to pull them into the summer by

(01:45:11):
creating an offer that works. So.
That's just a simple example of how a software can aid you,
isn't it? But there's that, that's just
one little example of of how youcan work towards not having to
do some of the crap you don't like.
Obviously we joked about fittingthe radiators.
Well, that's just a weird thing with me.
Bathroom seems to be a big sticking point in this game.

(01:45:33):
People like to do them because it can block up.
Two weeks of a diary keeps the diary and it's not seasonal, but
you're just doing it for the sake of doing it.
Like just as if you pricing structures wrong, you just out
working for the sake of working.Like the the letting agency
stuff we talked about before. If you're running around doing
10 certs at £40 because you say,yeah, he gets me £400 a day.

(01:45:57):
But then do you want to be running around doing 10 certs
for one in a day? Do you want to be putting your
name to that half assed job which it has to be to do 10 a
day and then ultimately the penultimate 1 of it?
What happens if the letting agents find someone else who'll
do it for £35 and they pull thatrug from under you and then

(01:46:18):
you're. Yeah, because though the problem
with the low value, high volume jobs is they have to be
constantly be run at that level.If somebody pulls the plug on
them, you're in a pickle versus let's say you're doing, let's
say, look at the other end of the scale.
Let's say you have a couple of we'll stick with the, the rental

(01:46:39):
property scenario. Let's say you've got 2 property
investor, 2 property investors who've maybe just got like 3 or
4 properties each, but they likeit's a higher end client.
They want really good, they wanta really good job, everything.
Instead of having a FGA and runaway CP12 done, they want a
full safety cert on the propertyand a full strip down boiler

(01:47:01):
service done every year and you charge £250 for that.
You only need to do a couple of them a day to generate more
money than the 10 jobs you were.Doing, yeah.
I know it's a different, different kind of world, but
that's just an example of like you need to start to take a step
back and look at what you're doing in your business and see

(01:47:24):
actually, is this sustainable? Do I want to be carrying on
doing this? If something went wrong in this
particular realm, how would my life look Like you say if you're
doing 50% of your work for a builder, what happens if the
builder goes bust? Or what happens if the builder
emigrates to Australia? Can I still pay my bills?

(01:47:44):
You know what I mean? That's why we've always
targeted. Yeah, we're the same.
And like, I'm not, I'm not saying having contracts with
builders and letting agents is bad.
It's not. But you have to use it and bend
it to suit your businesses needs.
Because you have to remember, I see like doing the work for the

(01:48:06):
builders is it's just cash flow because you're not growing your
own customer portfolio, same as doing the letting agents because
you're just doing work for them.It's, it's essentially like a
subcontracting kind of role because you're not growing your
business, you're just fuelling apersonal life.
The business costs, whatever it might be.

(01:48:28):
If that works for you, that's fine.
But if, but that is not a business because you're not
growing anything. You're just doing.
You're just. You're just.
Paying. Yeah, you're getting paid for
it. It's a job that's been branded
in a different way. I can say if that works for you
and that's what you want to do, that's fine.
But if you're just doing that because that's all you can do,

(01:48:49):
again, you have that's, that's the when it comes time to get
that piece of paper and write itdown, OK, 50% of my work is from
that. How can I get that to 25% and
again and it's. Hard to do all of what you've
just spoke about though, withoutthat bit of extra time and that
bit of clarity and ultimately that support as well, because

(01:49:09):
it's a very lonely world out there if you're trying to do all
of this on your own, isn't? It and that can be a that can be
the question in itself. I'm currently doing all of my
work currently comes from subcontracting work.
I'm concerned that if one of thethe contracts drops that I'm not
going to be able to pay my mortgage.
What advice would you give? And that's then, you know, it

(01:49:31):
could be anything like, oh, you're OK, try and try and start
to build your own domestic homeowner portfolio and and
spread the risk a little bit rather than having just four big
contracts. Yeah.
But that's again, that's something that we could rather
than us sitting down going through all these different
scenarios, you better just to like, say, go into a group like

(01:49:54):
off the tools and just ask a question.
Like don't be shy. Like nobody really gives a shit.
For those that haven't ever beenin or haven't been in off the
tools group for a while, it isn't like other groups, It's
not like it's not full of peoplethat are just going to demonise
you and judge you. It really isn't.
And if there are people that creep in like that, they soon

(01:50:15):
get booted out the door, you know, It's a vibrant community
designed to support people. You know, that is fundamentally
what it was. It was everything I wish I had
had 15 years ago when I started my journey, you know, and it's
there. It's there for people to get
involved with. Head on over.
Yeah, right. Should we?

(01:50:36):
It's been nearly two hours, so should we give the listeners a
rest and save some more stuff for a Part 3 to do soon?
Yeah, I think, I think a Part 3 is due and we can, I think not
off the back of that. It was, it was quite a long one.
I didn't think it was going to be that long.
It was just a general chit chat.But it doesn't always happen to

(01:50:58):
me and you I think. Yeah, like people, they've got
people who've got questions. If people don't want to post in
the group, if people are a bit like concerned about being
judged or whatever it might be, just send a direct message to me
or you if you've got questions about, you know, I mean, I'm
stuck. I'm not sure what to do.
I'm concerned about, you know, pay my bills or whatever it

(01:51:19):
might be. Just just reach out and ask the
question. And for people who aren't too
shy jumping off the tools and ask the question in there, yeah,
I want to. I want to. 2025 needs to be a
stronger year than 2024. What can I do to to achieve
that? How can I do things a little bit
better? How can I, like we said, we've

(01:51:40):
been speaking about for the lasttwo hours, how can I get more
time or more money or more structure to my life?
What are my options? And like we said before,
there'll be someone in the groupwho's already been in your
position and has come out of it or is currently in a similar
position. They might the only have to be a
little bit ahead. Like we said before, it might
just be I'm taking way too long writing up invoices and filling

(01:52:04):
out certificates. I can.
It's killing my time. My missus is on my back.
Have you finished that work yet?Like, you know, it's Friday
night. What can I do to fix that?
Can we get some software? And then you can look at what
software is going to work for you.
So there's a multitude of solutions to a multitude of
problems, isn't there? But it starts with a question.
It's it certainly, certainly does, right.

(01:52:26):
I think we're we're going to start to to call that a day.
But just to sort of summarise everything we've just spoke
about. So I'll bear in mind it's been
over 2 hours, so we might forgetsome bits and bobs here.
But I, I, I think for me being in the conversation, obviously
I, I, I think the key things forme are the message that I want

(01:52:49):
to sort of get out there is nothing changes unless something
changes. And start small, start with some
small changes that aren't too challenging to start with and
get that momentum building. What about yourself?
What would you say some sort of closing words would be?

(01:53:10):
Same. Yeah, don't, don't be too shy to
ask a question. Never be.
There's never a bad question. Sounds very cliche to say it,
but there's never a bad question.
No one's going to judge you. And again, sometimes you might
have to swallow a little bit. We, you know, we're all most of
us are in the groups, are in this industry, men.

(01:53:31):
And we do find it hard to swallow that pride sometimes.
But again, you've got to try andlook past that.
And you know, as I keep harping on about what's going to make
your life better, it could be your kids, your wife, your
husband, or whoever it is, or your parents, siblings, or
whatever you think you can. Whoever you think is life, you

(01:53:56):
can improve by making more time,more freedom, more money,
whatever it happens to be. Then just ask the question.
You've got to look past that stubbornness.
Or just, yeah, ask the question.And like, say, if you don't, if
you don't want to ask it in public, ask it in private for
me. How are you?
Where's there to help him? We.
It's yeah. And like, once you get a little

(01:54:18):
bit further down the the route in business and like I said
before, I've got some new staff starting that's going to give a
bit more free time. You trying to play a bit
attacked when I say this. You get you, you kind of move a
little bit past a certain point or issues that men suffer with

(01:54:39):
of not being not wanting to be too like open and and trusted
and helpful to people because you want to, you're often
protecting yourself. But as you get a little bit
further down that route and you've learned some things, then
you reach a point where you wantto pass that help on to other

(01:54:59):
people. It's because you get like we've
spoke about this at length that you get a certain like warmth
from it helping other people. And then you see seeing other
people succeed is success to youas well when you've helped them.
Like, and it can be such the smallest thing, like we said
before, you know, you know, don't, don't charge that price

(01:55:23):
for that job because it's a bit out your area.
Oh, but I need the job. Spend the time instead of going
out your area, stay in your area, do some fires.
It could be anything like that. That's took 10 seconds to give
that, you know what I mean? And people say, Oh yeah, never
thought about that because it's fucking shit on your own.
And it's very hard to see the woods from the the trees.
And it just takes that small conversation of a different, you

(01:55:45):
know, someone like say, oh, thought about check, train,
check a trade. But you know, I don't think it
works. Well, then you can say, well,
actually what, what model have you got, what area you're in?
And then what's? The strategy?
How are you going to communicate?
You'll find someone who's who's tried it and it's worked, or
it's tried it and not worked andthen it's answered your question

(01:56:06):
and then OK, well let's try something else.
So it just all needs to be done via a question and or and or a
conversation. Yeah, definitely.
I think that's a perfect way to end, so thank you very much
Andy. Part 3 coming soon because we're
going to need another two hour slot to get that done.
But I hope you've enjoyed it guys and girls.

(01:56:27):
Please share it with anyone you think it might might benefit and
then I'll look forward to speaking to you all again soon.
Have a good day everyone. Bye, guys.

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