Medical School Chronicles: From Studying to Practicing ft. Dr. Trishna Kumar

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello everybody and welcome to the Off Wyco podcast.
I'm your host, jordan Amney,and today I've got a good friend
of mine coming to join us.
She went to SU with me.
Her name is Trisha Kumar.
She's about to start herresidency, so let's get in it.
Trish glad to have you.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm glad to be here.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah Well, for anybody that doesn't know, this
is my good friend Trish.
She has been with meessentially the whole time,
through medical school so, andshe just matched into new
residency.
So why don't you tell everybody, I guess, where and what
specialty you're?

Speaker 2 (00:46):
matching yeah, so I matched in psychiatry in New
York City, in the Bronx, and I'mgoing to be seeing a lot of fun
stuff.
A lot of learning.
It's a learning experience.
That's the genus way peoplehave been saying it.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
So are you ready for your first day?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, a little bit.
I'm kind of like in the midstof orientation right now.
We did all that genericonboarding stuff the first week
and now we're doing moredepartment specific stuff, and
the first day of real doctorwork is next Monday.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
So I know you're going to do good.
I don't even have to cross myfingers for it.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
But likewise, likewise.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's going to be.
It's just going to be fun.
The orientation process is Godawful.
I'm doing the exact same thing.
I almost fell asleep, likethree times in the meeting.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Is yours like in an auditorium where you have like
the worst lighting ever and theworst possible setup for your
neck and you're just sittingthere for like 10 hours.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yep, and but luckily they gave us coffee and stuff.
So I was like on my second cupof coffee which I should never
be allowed to have two cups ofcoffee ever and so I was just
bouncing around like laughing ateverything.
But yeah, it was good the guyhe liked to.
He threw in some Marvelreferences.
He was like you're going tostart off his.
He kept calling the Falcon theblack Falcon or whatever, so

(02:04):
that that might be a littleMississippi thing.
But no, he kept saying likeyeah, you're going to start off
as just Sam and then you'regoing to work your way up to
Captain America.
I was like whoever's never seenany of the Marvel movies and be
so lost.
But he had all these photos andit was.
He was.
Yeah, it was kind of hilarious.

(02:24):
The guy was super nice.
But it also was funny that theywere just incorporating all the
Disney movies into ourorientation.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
They have a lot of good lessons in life.
It's inspirational fororientation.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was motivated, that's good.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
And you're also going to be in emergency medicine,
which is pretty much akin tobeing a superhero.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
So I would like to think so, but no, I'm just
kidding.
No, no, no, I was definitelyseeing a lot of people that
think they are superheroes.
That's for sure.
You probably will too.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah.
So for New York, did you haveto?
Did you have to move to like adifferent apartment?
Or are you because I know youwere doing rotations up there,
but have you like, officiallyhad to move to where you're
going to be this whole time?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, actually.
Well, I guess a little bitabout my journey.
As a medical student.
I did all of my clinicalrotations in Elmhurst, at
Elmhurst Hospital and QueensHospital, which is in the
borough of Queens.
So I did have to move becauseif anybody knows New York, even
if it says five miles, itdoesn't mean anything.
It could be five hours oftraffic.
So I moved to closer to theBronx on the Westchester County

(03:34):
side.
So I'm officially in thatapartment now getting ready to
start.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
I love the beautiful artwork in the background.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh yeah, this is actually in terms of, like, self
care and mental health, which Ishould be practicing since I'm
preaching it.
This is my favorite thing, likeit's those paint and sip
classes where you can just likedo whatever, or any of an
instructor telling you what todo, and it's like a fun evening.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
I'm trying to build a collection now, oh wow, so what
you painted those.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I want the paint and sip.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
It's like a cute little date night thing, also
for anybody who is looking fordate night ideas.
I like absolutely love thisconcept.
And it's like it's fun becauseit's a person who's instructing
you, but like you're notthinking about it, like you're
just like painting, and it'svery relaxing.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Man, I need to do one of those.
I've done a paint and sip once,but it was not by the end of it
.
It was not worthy enough tohang up.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
I doubt, I doubt you're, I'm sure you're better.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
They wouldn't even put it on the fridge.
They were like Jesus, you gotto do better, that's the really
good, very artistic.
But yeah, since you havementioned your medical journey,
I knew you at in St George's inGrenada, so we first met in in
Grenada.
But give us a rundown of kindof what led you to Grenada to

(04:53):
begin with and what led you tobecome a fancy pants doctor.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Well, okay, so like you said, we met in term one but
before I started medical school, I'm a Jersey girl, born and
bred.
I went to Rutgers andeverything and I didn't get into
medical school the first time Iapplied.
So I did my masters, tried tolike, amp up and beef up my CV
and resume by doing a mastersand like biomedical stuff that

(05:19):
was more concentrated inpharmacology.
And then I took the plunge forSt George's because I didn't get
off the wait list.
I mean full candor here.
Like for a lot of us, it's our,our helping hand to success.
It doesn't necessarily mean itwas our primary choice, but it's
what gave us our dreams.
So I took the plunge, took theplane to Grenada and had a

(05:40):
little bit of a lengthy stay inmy medical school career because
, you know, covid threw usaround a little bit and then we
had a few board exams to take.
And then here we are.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, the I mean is obviously a lot of people that
are coming from the IMG route.
It might not have been likemaybe your first bet, but
honestly, the people that I metdown at St George's I wouldn't
change it for the world becauseit definitely switched my whole

(06:09):
mindset and everything and mademe way more prepared for what I
am doing now.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Absolutely.
I do notice that too and Idon't know if you share this
experience.
After going to our school andlike doing rotations and stuff,
like they really do, they reallydid prepare us, like I know
they were telling us that thewhole time, but then I got to
the hospital and I was like, ohokay, I know things.
This is kind of cool and itreally helped to be honest, so
it worked.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, the communication could have been a
little better between thestudents and the, the heads up
of the program or the FSU, butbesides that, no, I have another
plane, so I love the island andso that whole experience was
amazing.
And I actually I realized andnow that I've gone through this

(06:57):
whole application process withmedical school or like the
residency application processthat I was just a really bad at
doing my like applications.
I was god awful at like goingfrom college and even, like, I
think, from high school tocollege.
That application I must havejust been like take me if you
want me, who cares?

(07:17):
And I literally wrote thescores down, didn't put anything
else.
And then even when I went tomedical school like I don't
think I put anything now, like Idon't think I fluffed it up
near as much as like when I wasdoing for this residency
application I was putting allkinds of stuff I mean I started
a podcast just to sound- alittle bit more official in the

(07:40):
interview.
Yeah, I was doing all kinds ofthings signing up for these
organizations so I could putthem on the list, and I just
realized I was like, oh my god.
Like when I looked at the twodifferent applications I was
like I could have done, I guess,like no wonder.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
But it all worked out right Like.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
I think it worked out for the best that I was that
bad.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
It is a daunting application that like there's so
many sections and there's somany little things about it that
, like you have to find out onyour own.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
And you have to like write every little bit, like
there's those little paragraphseach time.
It's like tell us whatcommunity health means to you
and tell us what all this stuffmeans.
I was like I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
I like this issue where it really stressed me out,
where, when you were doing likethe CV section or the resume,
any of the sections really,where the characters were like
250 characters or less, I'm likethat's two sentences, what do
you want me to say is going tomake me sound really good in two
sentences, like that's sodifficult.
I don't know.
That was my biggest problem, Ifelt.

(08:49):
Or maybe just a little bit much, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
No, I either could not figure out like I couldn't
even figure out the first way tobegin a sentence, or I was
going well over it.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
And I wasn't getting anybody to read over it, I was
just like, okay, like it'sperfectly fine, and then I
realized I have terrible grammar, like I knew that to begin with
, but so no one told us that waspart of the deal of becoming a
doctor, so yeah.
So I will say that if anybody'strying to get into medical
school, like sometimes or anddon't get yourself discouraged,

(09:25):
because I look back and justrealized that I wasn't doing
specifically what they wanted tosee, like then, after I was in
it and I saw how medicalstudents like how the thought
process goes, I was able tocraft a better resume.
But before you just have noidea, you're like okay, like I'm
a college student.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Literally, you're just like oh okay, like this is
what I'm doing now.
Like I didn't, like you said, Ididn't like put as much thought
process until a lot of what Iwas doing when I was like an
undergraduate student oranything, and then it was like,
oh okay, like I guess this isthe purpose of everything behind
.
Like this is why they made usdo these essays, this is why we
had to take all these classes.
Like then it's sense, I guessthat's a total head again.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
That's a whole nother rant.
So I mean, we met.
We were just talking about it aminute ago.
We met so early that I don'teven think I remember.
It was like we were beenfriends ever since day one.
I've always been able to callon you.
So when you first got to theisland though because I know it
was a little bit of anadjustment for me I got there,

(10:30):
had no idea where I was goingand there's no Wi-Fi at where.
When I first got there, therewas no anything.
So was it easy adopting to thenew island life and the whole
new medical school?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I mean it's really easy like now, like four years
later, you know, like theSpongeBob meme to say like yeah,
it was like so, it was so easylike 2020 hindsight, whatever
you know but it was hard, like Ifeel like maybe we didn't none
of us talked about that enough,like because we were just like
go, go, go all the time.
There was always an exam, therewas always a small group that
we had to attend at like theripe hour of like 7am or

(11:07):
something.
There was always somethinggoing on.
That like I feel like none ofus really sat down and talked
about how much we were doing andlike how we got thrown into it
so quickly.
So for me, in that beginningperiod of time, I would say it
was a little bit difficult.
I think I relied on like talkingto my family a lot and the
people I was meeting, likepeople like yourself and other

(11:27):
other friends that we had atschool, because we were each
other support system, Like weliterally lived on an island and
it was just us.
So I'm going through what wewere going through, so we had to
rely on each other.
There was a learning curveinvolved, for sure, in terms of
the schedule, the weather, theeverything the adjustment of
even like grocery shopping atIGA, like everything sort of had

(11:49):
to coalesce but there was aperiod of time where none of it
made sense and I would say thathaving each other throughout all
of that and then just liketrusting the process helped and
having a support system.
So I feel like a lot of that Icouldn't have done by myself.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, the support system.
Like I found that, letting itcome as it goes, like you're
just rolling with the punchesand finding yourself a good
support system for all of that,which meant, like me, it meant
just going out and making newfriends and stuff like that,
Because all of us werevulnerable.
But I know a lot of people likeI know there was a learning

(12:26):
curve to figuring out how tostudy, but I felt like most of
the issue was sometimes likefinding a group to study with,
finding people to the rightpeople to be around and to get
your mind right for whenever thehard parts came Because I feel
like that old analogy about likehow med school is like a whole

(12:47):
like fire hose sort of level ofexperience.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
But I think I mean now looking back on it like if
I'm being retrospective at all,like it's exactly what you're
saying, like if I was given allthe material that I had to study
in medical school at adifferent pace and that was like
the only thing I had to beconcerned about.
I feel like it could besomething that was a lot more
manageable than it was.
But here you are, especiallyfor us being thrown into a
completely brand new countryForget about like brand new town

(13:13):
or something like that.
For all of us US citizens thatwere there and people from
different countries too we had alot of international friends
also it's like you're learningto adjust to live to a new place
.
You're learning to adjust tolike even sleeping in a new
place, like you've never sleptbefore and you know, getting rid
of some of that social anxietyand being like hey, can I study
with you?
And not feeling awkward, likethere's so much that goes into

(13:34):
it that allows you to be thatsteady pace like medical student
that we forgot.
Like we forgot that we wentthrough all of that.
Yeah just make it happen alittle bit, but it was hard in
the beginning, like it wasn'teasy, and I feel like those are
the things that like helped usbe able to handle a lot of other
things that might have comelater, like clinical rotations,
again moving to a new city,learning a new role, while you

(13:55):
have to study and do like thingsin the hospital, take shelf
exams, like all these thingslike I think that our experience
in Grenada, with all the otherthings that were thrown on top
of the educational part of it,really prepared me for that too.
I mean.
Granted, like you said, there'ssome communicative issues that
I could think.
I think could be fixed a littlebit with our SG administration,
but everything else, I feellike it really helped me stay

(14:21):
calm in crisis.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
That's the best way to explain it, because I mean,
like you said at the verybeginning, it's just chaos
everywhere.
I remember I got to my it wasthe brand new dorms.
They were like eww, harry, garythe best dorm.
And then I got there, there wasno water at all the whole dorm,
Except for one hallway which,luckily, I had met the people on

(14:45):
the plane.
They had some water and Iremember I went to sleep and
they had these little blinds.
I don't even know if they hadblinds at first, but I've never
seen a room more bright at 6amin the morning than that first
night.
I was like, oh my goodness so.
But you know, you get someblackout curtains, you make the
most of it?

(15:06):
Yeah, because my room likelooked to where the sun was like
when it rose in the morning itwent straight into my window so.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I had the.
I had the view of like campusor whatever.
And then halfway into term oneI don't know if you remember,
but that's when they decided tomake like Olympic style
volleyball courts, which Iappreciated.
I did like to play volleyballbut they had like stadium
lighting for why?
So, like you couldn't sleepuntil like a certain hour
because it was like super brightfluorescent lights on that side

(15:39):
of Eric Gary.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, yeah it was, it was ridiculous too.
Like all the time, yeah, I doremember that I was like, thank
God I'm not on that end.
And then morning would come andI would be like, oh, my God,
Always greener.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
right Grass is always green.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah.
And so I will say like, yeah,it was a little chaotic, but it
really did prepare.
You know, that whole IMGlifestyle and I know a lot of
other people go to differentislands and different and
probably different schools andeven the states or whatever.
But the fact that we had toadapt in that way it really made

(16:16):
it made you just have a higherthreshold for what you what
freaks you out.
And then you said you move onto rotations and everything, and
I remember some people wouldfreak out about you know just,
they had a bad Airbnb and theycouldn't get it all figured out

(16:36):
and the guy wouldn't let them,you know, eat in the Airbnb and
they were losing their mind.
I was like, oh, dude, likethat's gonna be all right, yeah,
it's gonna be okay, dude.
Just yeah, you're just gonnahave to go.
You're gonna have to get thehospital every day, don't worry
about it.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Clearly Like if you can eat it some way.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
I literally told him.
So that was so funny that yousaid that, because I said I was
like oh, sounds like you'regonna be in subway every day,
buddy.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
You could do that there, like you got this.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
You got this.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
But yeah, now we actually had a very interesting
experience together where wefound out we were getting kicked
off the island at the same time, Like I was in.
I was like we're eating pizza,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Literally in my apartment, like me and our other
friend of all, like we had goneto get pizza.
That new place.
There was like some new placeto have like better pizza or
whatever.
We tried it.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
We never get to try it again.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
It was the first day that I ran into pizza, which is
so funny.
And do you remember we got likethree different emails.
First it was like oh, like,class is no longer mandatory and
everybody was like overjoyed.
Yeah, it was that one.
You don't like hear it anywhereon campus, like the 80% rule,
it's gone.
That's crazy.
Then it was like JK, you guysneed to leave and you need to
leave, like tomorrow, oh my God.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
And then there, was widespread panic, you could tell
.
And yeah, I remember becauseI'm always terrible at checking
my emails and everything and Iremember I'm glad I was at.
I always say that I'm just likeglad I have good friends or
whatever, because I was aty'all's place and then I think
it was Naval or maybe it was you, I don't remember, but somebody
gets it.
And then they they're likefreaking out, they're like oh no

(18:13):
, you know, because I was rightafter Trump had given that
speech or whatever about howhe's closing the borders.
And then they like there wasjust a mass amount of emails by
the time I checked it.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, there were like 10 or something.
We also didn't think it waslike real life, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
I was like please, no way.
I was like it looks like we'regoing out tonight.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I can't believe we like packed up our whole lives
in like 48 hours, so like that'ssort of insane.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I left.
Like so many things, I stillRIP to my Nutribullet.
I was really upset about that.
Had to leave.
It Couldn't fit in the suitcase.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
I was like oh well, at any given moment we were only
allowed like two suitcases toour name to even get to Grenada.
So it's like what were you?
And by the time we got senthome we were like fairly into
our medical school career.
So I had like accumulated a lotof stuff by the time we were
sent home.
Or, yeah, told to like pack upand everything, and I was.

(19:10):
I ended up leaving a lot ofstuff behind.
I didn't know how to donate it.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
I've left it.
I remember I had dried out allthese seashells that I was going
to send back, like these bigconch shells that we had found
around the house.
What an idiot that those areall still probably sitting
wherever I left them.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
They're probably like in the house in the decoration
that's like yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
I mean, yeah, they're probably are.
I was like, oh yeah, eacheverybody will love these.
They never made it off theisland.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
That would have been like a suitcase by itself, and
then none of your stuff wouldhave come home.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
So yeah, I was like not going to happen.
But yeah, so we made it.
We made it off, we had to dothe whole online medical school
thing.
And then how do you think?
I am curious to know, becauseit was a little weird for me
doing the online stuff.
It wasn't bad, but I felt likeit.
Actually I felt like I studiedbetter and would have been

(20:09):
better prepared for step one ifI hadn't had to go through all
the moving, all that.
And then now there's a weirdschedule imbalance and then all
of a sudden, now you have totake step one.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, no, I agree with that.
Honestly, I feel like you know,we were just saying, like you
got through like this difficulttransition period of like being
on the island when we were interm one, but we were so used to
our schedules Like humans arecreatures of habit we are like
and at this point we were interm five or two right like we
were about to be done with thebasic sciences curriculum, and
then it's like everythingchanges.

(20:45):
They change the interface, theychange the style of teaching,
like it was like, oh my god, Idon't know I'm going to do this
and, like you said, it's likegearing up for step one.
So it's like all thiscumulative information, like up
until like where we were, butsince, like the first day of med
school, that's like a lot ofmaterial as well, like a small

(21:05):
module or something.
So I found it really difficult.
It even delayed my process alittle bit, because that whole
transition period and the testanxiety behind standardized exam
, which is something that I'vealways struggled with like
pushed me to have a secondattempt in my step one process
or journey.
And, you know, looking back onit, I like, I guess because, as

(21:27):
medical students were taught tobe resilient, like as physicians
now we're taught to beresilient like we we do so much
and we don't like reflect enough.
I feel like about what we wentthrough, like especially like we
literally just talked about thefact that like the world ended
and we got sent home in 48 hoursand then we just started
studying like the day after thatyou know what I mean like we
didn't processing time and Ithink, going back, I didn't give

(21:51):
myself enough credit for goingthrough all of those things and
like processing that, processingmy test anxiety to sit for the
exam and then I was like, ohwait, like I went through all
this, like that acknowledgementalone made me feel like I was
using like years of tension offof my body and mind and
everything, so it really helped.
And then sitting down again atthis point now I'm getting used

(22:13):
to like zoom life and zoomuniversity, so I'm used to
studying at home, used to beingat my parents house, whereas I
was like at mod for most of mymedical career at this point,
and that second time around,when I took the exam and it was
successful, I like I realizedthat all the things that we went
through in the first part of2020 that influenced it and like

(22:33):
it taught me a lot about myself.
So I guess, like, yeah, it waslike a shitty transition, for
sure, but looking back on it, Ilearned so much about myself in
that time period.
Like I knew what made me likelearn things better.
I knew what things made me moreanxious about taking an exam,
you know, and it made me facethose things in ways that I

(22:54):
probably wouldn't have faced ifI wasn't given, like, a failed
attempt the first time orsomething right.
So that second attempt, like it,forces you to like learn things
about yourself and it alsoforces you to realize that you
are a human being, which issomething that we don't get
taught very often in our line ofwork.
Like you are a person, you're ahuman being.
It's okay to like make mistakessometimes, it's okay to like

(23:18):
not be 110% at any given momentand it's okay to think something
like an eight hour exam that'squote unquote determining your
future is scary.
Like it's okay to admit thatit's a scary test.
It's okay to admit that you canget through it, and it's not
the only thing that's going onyour application.
That was long when it respondsto what you were saying, but my
point of even saying that'sbecause I know there's so many

(23:38):
people who struggle with testanxiety, struggle with
standardized exams becausethey're not the same as other
tests you take in school.
They're also ridiculously long.
There's someone's entireworkday is as long as the exam.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yes, it is, and those carry on.
What were you going to say?
I so I'm.
I definitely have like testinganxiety, especially when it
comes to long tests.
Like I am one of those fewpeople not really a few, but the
proud and where I cannot sit,still I.

(24:13):
And when there is tests likethat, I could.
An eight hour standardized testis essentially set up to be the
exact opposite of the way that Iusually think or or will do
things in general, and so I getthis weird, like I know that I
won't be performing as well as Ishould be, and then I get all

(24:36):
revved up one way or another andit sometimes even then I'll
just like overthink thingsbecause I know that I'm not very
good with tests.
And so to do all of that, tohave and then to have like other
life, like other life thingsgoing on in the background,
you've got me, like you said,the world ended.

(24:58):
We've got all this COVIDhysteria essentially it was
literally hysteria people werewatching the news, scared if
everybody in their family isgoing to die, and then they were
like by the way, you've got atimeline.
You need to get to the mostintense studying you've ever
done in your life.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
At that point exactly .
I know that you can relate tothis too, because you have a
parent who's a physician as well.
you have a parent who was, likeprobably, like literally on the
front lines of a lot of what washappening at that time period,
and my dad as well, and I waslike I had adding anxiety from
that because, like this was prevaccine and everything and I'm
like I'm stressed out aboutstudying, I want to pass your
five, want to pass step one, allthis stuff and my dad's going

(25:36):
to work every day and there's novaccine, like I don't want him
to get COVID, like there's somuch going.
That's a very serious worry onits own, like what a time.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, what a time.
And then you've got, did youwent home, right, I guess?
Yeah, you're now you've beenliving by yourself where you
have this whole thing.
I promise you, maybe yourfamily's a little different.
It is 50 to 100 times easier tostudy when I'm in a different
household than the rest of myfamily, and that's like no under

(26:08):
over exaggeration, like it.
They they're first off, there'sa ton of us, so there's always
something going on, but there'sjust there's so much go, yeah,
there's so much going on andthere's little kids running
around constantly and it.
I used to like have to go tothis, like luckily, one of my
grandparents had like a cabin inthe middle of nowhere and I

(26:29):
would go by myself to this cabinfor like weeks on in.
Yeah, but that that was theonly way I got like a moment,
because I don't think I couldhave done it Without that.
And then you've, so you've got,yeah, you've got all this stuff
going on in the background oflike hysteria, and then you're

(26:50):
like finally back with yourfamily.
You're trying to like they'retrying to understand what it is
to study all the time, like mymom understands it, but nobody
else does like she's like, oh,you should be so like my mom
will just be like.
You should be studying.
You should be studying likeshe's the subtle.
Yeah, yeah, the oh.

(27:11):
You decided to go for a walktoday.
Dude, what are you thinking,man?
She's, she's better than that,but just so you have all the
stress, and stress alone makesyou, hurts your chances at
success or whatever like,especially when it comes to like
critical thinking for thosetests.
So, yeah, I mean you wentthrough a lot and we never take

(27:32):
time to acknowledge like oursuccesses until, like, I never
really acknowledged my successat step like completing all that
, until after I match, and thenI was like, oh God, it didn't
hurt, thank God.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, exactly, I don't think I had this moment
very often before.
Like you said before, matchinglike when and match Monday and
Friday happen and then, likewhen we were at graduation and
we we have to sit right next toeach other at graduation, at
like that moment, when they saidthe thing that they were saying
, that all we achieved, I waslike, oh wait a minute, we did

(28:06):
that, we literally did that, andyou don't think about it
because we're go, go, going.
You know, there's alwayssomething and that's like my
other thing about reallyprioritizing your mental health
and this whole process, which issomething that I really hope to
continue to do throughresidency, which I think you
know it might be not the easiestsometimes, but it's something
we should try.
Our level best to change thenarrative about is that, you

(28:29):
know, we we shouldn't get solocked into like this idea of
destination happiness, which Ithink is something that is
really possible in a sector likemedicine where, like you have
to go to school first, you haveto train as a doctor then, and
then after that, like there's somany levels or rungs of a
ladder that you need to getthrough to like be done, quote,
unquote, and we can get intothis dangerous thing where we're

(28:50):
like oh you know, I'll be happywhen I'm at all, be happy when
I'm done with the first year ofresidency, all be happy when,
like residency is over.
It's like we have to rememberall the things we've achieved up
until this moment and then alsoremember like to enjoy the
process of what's happening.
Like it's, if you keep thinkingthat tomorrow is going to be
the day, then like you're nevergoing to enjoy what's happening

(29:12):
and you're also going to bethinking in a thought process.
That's like not allowing you tobe physically and mentally
present Like we should.
That's like part of likeacknowledging like it's okay to
acknowledge the fact that youpassed a shelf exam, like that's
a feat in itself.
You know, like it doesn't haveto be the big grand things, it
doesn't have to be like thefinal ending of everything, to

(29:34):
be only like the final ending ofthose days and I think I made
that realization after I matched, ironically, you know.
So now I want to make sure thatother people understand that
they've achieved a lot byalready being wherever they are
in the process.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's beautiful, because that I literally had
that same experience where Ididn't, and I think maybe now
that step one is pass or fail,it's a little bit, it can be a
little smoother because it's forone thing.
It's like they used to say,like the reason my understanding
of why they made step one passor fail was because they kept
telling people to not like tostop considering step one as

(30:13):
such an important score, likethey kept telling programs and
that did absolutely nothing andit still was the number one
reason that they that programsmatched for people matched for
step one.
And so that puts a lot ofpressure on you, not only like
essentially from day one,because that's all of your first

(30:35):
medical school stuff is stepone, and then all of the
clinical rotations andeverything that's step two, and
so you're just in this whirlwindof like, oh my God, every score
counts, every, and so I thinkit gives you a little bit more
freedom to just be like okay, Ijust have to pass, you know only
once more.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think that's a little bit different what you
said, even though not only so.
Now, all the I, my fear in thatis that a lot of that I don't
know pressure is going to getshifted to step two, and I
really hope that that's not thecase.
And I think what happened withme, with my repeated experience
in everything, is just atestament of the fact that
there's so many programs outthere and there's also so many

(31:17):
attributes on your own, like CVor E-RES application, that speak
to who you are.
That has absolutely nothing todo with step one.
You know, like the sheerreality of it, based on what you
were saying, even if you tellpeople to not look at the three
digits, for they're going tolook at it, they're going to
have to get rid of it for stepone.
But there were filters createdfor those reasons, right, like
you know, even match a residenthas that tool where they're like

(31:39):
, oh, step one first time, passor preferred or whatever.
These filters exist becausethey're using numeric statistics
to rule people out, right?
So it's also even scarier tothink, oh, I'm not going to make
it pass.
That filter, which is likeanother dangerous path to put
yourself on.
There are.
There are so many programs outthere for everybody, I feel, and
I feel like all it really takesis for someone to see your

(32:01):
application and just resonatewith it, which is far more
possible than people think it is, in my personal opinion and I'm
not just saying that becauseyou know, match day was
successful for both you and Ibut I think that's how human
beings behave, right Likethere's something that catches
someone's attention in anapplication and it might not
have absolutely anything to dowith the numeric values or
numeric scores that are on thatperson's application.

(32:23):
It might be something that theywrote in the personal statement
.
It might be like an experiencethey had on their you know CV,
or like experiences section orwhatever.
It might be something that theysaid about their family or
whatever, and that's all ittakes for someone to open your
folder, quite literally in aconference room, and be like
let's talk about this person.
And we forget that, that thepeople that are looking at us

(32:45):
are also human beings.
So there are a lot of doctorsout there that might be of that
old school of thought where,like, they have to have the top
99% title, everything but forevery doctor.
That's like that I'd like tobelieve that there's another one
that's like wait, wait, hold on, let's just make sure that
they're not all numbers.
So I think that there's also ageneral shift, especially when,
you know, people from ourgeneration start to be in the

(33:07):
hospital, start to maybe be moreadministrative or leadership or
have leadership roles in thehospital too.
Some of those thought processesmight get shifted out with the
new ones and I'm holding on tothat and I hope that everybody
has more like less of apressurized experience to become
physicians because of that.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
So I think so.
I think that there's a lot of,there was a lot of like this is
just how you do things all upuntil really just recently, and
then people have started torealize that you can get more
out of like the applicantsinstead of and maybe it's
because you have these onlineones where they can talk to more

(33:47):
now or whatever but itdefinitely feels like there is
kind of a shift to where they'relooking more at the whole
person.
I'm sure they did it before,but there was a lot more Like
you weren't allowed to be.
You had to be very seriousaccording to like other older
people that have gone througheverything and your scores meant

(34:09):
a lot and everything.
Now I found that, like some ofthe smaller things that I put in
my application were like I'msure you had to bring up like
they brought up like why do youhad to do step one over again.
Like I'm sure you had toexplain yourself, but I also had
to.
If you know, when you writelike your hobbies or like your

(34:30):
interest, I put I put like somegoofy things.
So this is actually from StGeorge is like right, I never
had cooked really this before,like whenever I got there one of
my first weeks me, jesus, kunal, we made salsa and we brought
it to these, like this littleparty or whatever we made, and I

(34:50):
, for the first time in my life,I watched, you know, and we've
got a Hispanic and Indian guymaking, and so I got to see like
all the like how to do it andhow to spice it up and stuff
like that.
And so then I just made it overand over and over again until I
got really, really good atmaking it and then, like I was

(35:10):
just known that I would makesalsa for anything, and then I
just loved it because you getcheap tomatoes.
You get you get a ton oftomatoes for like you could get
a whole bag of tomatoes for 20AC, which is like the equivalent
of $7.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
That's nothing.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, nothing, it was nothing.
So I would just buy a ton oftomatoes and I don't eat
tomatoes unless it's in salsa.
So I almost always made it.
And so when I did myapplication, I put and I had
just done, I went to Columbiaright before it was like this
time last year and I had done asalsa class and you know we had

(35:47):
gone to salsa nights or whateverin Grenada, but I'm not good at
that at all.
But so I put like salsaconnoisseur, mainly the dish but
also the dance or somethinglike that.
And I was just you know, I wasspeaking to an honest, like an
honest attribute or whateverthat I'm the guy that just makes

(36:08):
salsa for everything, because Ijust love salsa.
And I had so many people bringthat up, though, like they were
like I want to know what thismeans and I hope to God you have
good salsa.
And I was like I think I canhang, you know, and so it's like
that kind of stuff I care more.

(36:31):
I see a number and I'm like,okay, the guy is smart enough to
pass, and then I care about allthe other stuff.
What is going to be interestingabout that person?

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
And how they're going to fit in the residency.
Just saying you're a teamplayer is one thing, but if
you've got all these, I don'tknow.
I think everybody just saysworking out, which I'm sure
that's essentially what I wouldhave said, but then I would
realize that everybody was goingto say that.
So you just got to pick thequirkiness.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, you have to keep yourself yourself, which is
like we have this idea that wehave to be like this, very like
prim, proper version ofourselves on ERAS.
But I like all the things thatI put in my hobby section was
probably the most thing I gotlike quoted from like in an
interview.
It wasn't even like.
It literally wasn't even like.
Oh, like, say, you had apublication, this that are the
other like it wasn't likeacademic stuff.

(37:32):
It was always stuff that Iwrote either in my personal
statement or in the hobbysection because they wanted to
get to know like what kind of aperson I was.
Because at that point I think,like in the interview stage,
like exactly going off of whatyou were saying, like they
reviewed all the academic stuffabout you at this point, like
they already know you made itthrough some of those like
technical, you know filters orwhatever it is at that moment,

(37:54):
like they're giving you thisopportunity because like it's a
two way street, they want to getto know you for this training
job and they want you to get toknow them about this training
job and see if it like lines upessentially and I, although it
was like a little bit, I don'tknow if you felt this way, like
with zoom interviews, it wasdefinitely like a little bit
more.
It's a little more difficult tosense a vibe, like vibes are

(38:15):
still, I think, for me through ascreen.
In my personal opinion, that'show I felt about my program, but
it is obviously a little biteasier in real life or in person
or whatever.
But that was like what I thinkI really liked about my program
the most was that they wanted toknow so many things about me
because I felt like they werereally trying to invest in a
person that would fit into likea close knit family.

(38:36):
So we're very small program andyou know now in real life, now
that we're at orientation andI'm meeting everybody not on
zoom, like it did make sense,like why they were asking me all
these things because theywanted to make sure that we were
going to be a happy family.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, and I mean, that's the only way to build
like a successful group, and soit's like a you can just you can
tell that they're being honestand not just throwing out, and
you know when they're asking you.
All that did you put, thatyou're a painter.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
I actually did, because this is something I
started doing, I would say likein fourth year because I had
time and I wasn't able to do itthen.
But what I did put on and I'msure you remember is that and I
know a lot of people probablywould put this but the way I put
my dance section on my USapplication, I was like, yeah,
I'm a dancer and I'll probablyteach you, even if you don't

(39:30):
want to be taught how to danceor something like that, because
you know, I used to teach Lumbaand I'm a trained dancer and
stuff.
So that was something theywould always ask me really.
So when are you going to do azoom, a class for the program?
So that was like a question Igot from a couple programs
actually.
And then the other one was whatup with the other thing?
I always like read.

(39:50):
I like to read a lot.
So they put you on the spot forthat.
So if you just like decide thatyou want to write all these
things that make you soundreally cool, they're going to
ask you what book you're reading.
You can have you talk about thebook too.
You can't like spark.
Note that.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
That's why you have to just put what's honest about
you and I think first off youwant to find a program that is
going to like if you put a bunchof stuff that's not you, then
they're going to think you'resomebody different and you make
it put in a program that there'salready a Zumba instructor and
then you're like, geez and I'mthe one, but no, were you going
to be putting a?

Speaker 2 (40:27):
program when, joey, have you watched friends, the
like show, right?
So there's an episode, and ifyou remember, where Joey like
live on his resume and then he'slike asked to do all the skills
on his resume and I like hadthat scene burning in my mind,
like when I was sitting throughthis one, like, oh my god,
they're going to ask me to dosomething and if I can't perform
it's going to be a hot mess.
So just remember that, don't beJoey.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Doesn't he say he can speak Italian, or something
like that?
Isn't that that one?
Or maybe that's a different?

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I think he's like a salsa dancer or something crazy
too, I'm pretty sure, and he hasabsolutely no idea how to do it
.
So the message is don't be Joey.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, and you, I think also, if you are going
through the same process andyou're thinking of, like what
skills do I have?
That can be applicable to that.
Like think about things toothat aren't just I mean you can
say you're a reader or thingslike that, that, especially if
that's your passion.
But also I think you did agreat one by saying I'm a dancer

(41:27):
and I'll teach you, even if youdon't like something.
That includes like the group,so that that they also.
Or like if you're saying I'm apainter and you can have the
paintings in the background likesomething that they can ask you
about.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Right yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
People say they play guitar, then they'll stick the
guitar in the background, butthey will ask you to play the
guitar.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Oh my god, did that happen?

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I know somebody that did, and I know somebody that
said they could play the guitarand they could not and they had
to say that the strings were.
They had to make up some excuse.
And then the guy was like blah,blah.
You know, like they're notgoing to put you on the spot,
but if it's a talent orsomething that you like to do,
like I put.
So I'm like a big history person, like I'll, I just like

(42:12):
learning about ancient historyand I used to tell like these
essentially, when my littlesister was time, forever her to
go to bed, she would ask me likeoh, tell me a story, because
I'm 18 years older than mylittle sister.
Oh my god.
So, yeah, big age gap.
But so she'd be like oh, tellme a story.
Well, I'm not good at coming upwith stories on the spot, like
they're just, they come outridiculous.

(42:33):
So I just would tell her likeGreek myths that I knew off the
top of my head, and then sheloved it and so then I would
like go home and like researchmore, blah, blah, blah.
So eventually I told her, likeeverything, we've gone through
almost all the Greek myths.
She, whenever they got to thatpart in school, she was like oh

(42:54):
wait, you're talking aboutJordan.
I thought you were telling mestories.
And she's like I know who Zeusis.
My brother tells me about that.
But yeah, so when I wrote in myapplication I put like Greek
mythology guru or some, I putsomething like that, like that
was one of the individual things.
And then I also, like you know,I said salsa and a couple of
things that were group oriented,so like it kind of encompassed

(43:17):
everything.
And then I got asked about thata lot too, like people and I
was not expected to ask.
Like they were like what's yourfavorite Greek god or whatever,
and I was like like I don'tknow, that?

Speaker 2 (43:29):
did you actually have an answer?
What was it?

Speaker 1 (43:31):
I well, because I don't like saying the most
obvious one.
So I think I said Hermesbecause he was quick and he ran
around everywhere.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
I like it yeah and I.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
But I didn't want to go into the fact that they have
all these statues in Greecewhere it's just like the and
that's it's crazy, where yourmind goes in the middle of an
interview, but they like at allthe crossroads.
They have just a picture ofHermes face and then a pair of
genitalia and then the rest isjust a slap and so like.
I, for some reason that was allI was thinking of.

(44:03):
I was like, yeah, like I likehim, because you know he said
every crossroads.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
I mean, honestly, I definitely felt like there were
moments in time when they wouldgive presentations and stuff and
I'm like, oh my god, I hope Idon't look, like I'm not going
to this kind of hard.
Like it's really hard to likeremain focused and like not
think about, like you lookingcrazy because your camera's on
yeah going on in that moment.

(44:28):
But what you're saying about thepaintings thing I purpose in my
old apartment in Queens, Ipurposely, I guess yeah,
purposely, it's like the rightword would sit in front of like
this little alcove I had in myold apartment that, like I could
put things on, there werelittle shelves and how I had
decorated my apartment was likeall my pictures with, like my
family and like my friends and,like you know, important trips I

(44:51):
had been on.
They just happened to be on thatwall so I made like my camera
was in front of it and I wouldlike fit so that you know if
they see it they're going towant to ask about it, so that
like eats up so muchconversation too.
Because I feel like you'resitting there in your head being
like, am I being conversational?
Am I not being awkward?
Am I being awkward?
And then it's like you kind oflike priming them with stuff to
ask you about because they'rejust their eyes are going to go

(45:12):
to whatever's behind your headtoo.
So that helped me in my firstcouple interviews because it
helped me like ease my, likemine's tension and also like got
me, I guess, more practice,like more practice and speaking
about myself, because they wereall things pertaining to me in
the background and that was cool.
They would ask me about mypictures and stuff.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
So yeah, and that's.
I think you just have to dothat.
You have to set up some kind ofvisual cue and like what you're
comfortable at talking aboutbecause you don't think about it
and it's so funny Mary Bessalways talks about it because
it's really funny is like rightaround interview time.
Anytime you ask a medicalstudent anything, they just go
into this ridiculously longdrawn out.

(45:55):
They're like why do I likepasta?
Well, pasta to me has alwaysbeen a very influential thing.
My grandmother made it.
Now I make it and you know theprocess of making and you she's
like what I was just asking,what you want you know like.
And then you realize that youhave to do that in the interview
but you're not prepped for itin your first couple no, I feel

(46:18):
like I I honestly don't need.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
I'm trying to think do you know what time period
your the program you matched inwas like?
What part of interview seasondid you have that?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
it was more in the beginning, but it was like
number eight or something.
I'm glad I got a couple undermy belt it was.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
It was not my, it was not my first where I matched,
was not my first interview.
It was early in the season,like you, but it wasn't my very
first one.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
I'm happy because I was, like, less nervous and you
know and you have all theseother questions that you figure
out that you want to ask.
I would say, if anybody has atip to like, once you've gone
through the interview, thinkabout the questions that you
missed or whatever, and writethose down or questions that

(47:04):
other people ask.
I had a running list of smartquestions that other people
asked and then I would be like,oh okay, like that was a good
thing.
Yeah, I didn't even ask about,is it, you know, on a block
schedule, like is it a blockschedule or monthly schedule?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
yeah, I had like.
Thank god I had a MacBook.
I would like have my likestickies.
I did too, yeah you know, Ireally feel like after a while
though that was like just likefor my own, like comfort,
because I don't I was toonervous really looking all
around my screen in thebeginning to that.
I probably wasn't like lookingat my notes in the background

(47:42):
anyway, but I would write inlike those meet the resident
hours, meet angry or whateverand, like any information I had
on the program, I would writedown there like pop in there and
good with zoom right, becauseI'm what do you do like.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
You can't do that in real life yeah, you can't, which
I'm sure they have one to foldup on you, so it's probably
easier in person or at least alot more forgiving, like in
person that's true now.
But yeah, they like, if you liketo write down the let the
things that I had, I will saythat doing it, I did mine in

(48:19):
person and that was actuallysuper helpful whenever it came
time to decision and I only didit in person because they had no
online.
Like I must have been like laston the people that they gave an
interview a list on, becausethere was not a single virtual
interview left and there wasonly one day that I could come

(48:39):
for applicants.
But three of the people thatwere in the the in person
interviews they got it.
So I don't know, I mean, that'sthree out of 16, so that's not
even that I have a branch likethat's not that.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
But I but you meet like all y'all match there.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yeah, like well, there was like probably eight or
10 total, and then there wastwo in that day, but three out
of that one group of eight matchbecause I recognize them yeah
that from one interview day.
That's like one fourth of yourclass almost yeah, so it was
definitely super helpful in thatregard.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
So, but I getting some under your bell and don't
schedule your last, your likemost important ones last either,
because I started airingtowards the end of the season
and for me, I don't know likeyou can speak on the emergency
medicine match versus pre-matchsituation, but psych has like a

(49:39):
decent number of programs thatare pre-match and not in the
match season or whatever.
So I had a couple interviewsthat were out of it and like
that gave me like I had so muchanxiety, like between January
and March 13th, essentiallybecause they roll out all their
offers like super early, youknow.

(50:00):
So it's like you know thatyou're gonna have to make
certain things like you have tolike get like let go of certain
things or you have to, you know,wait till the last moment to
like oh now, this is my list,because my list is like
different than these pre-matchprograms.
So that was interesting too,because I feel like if the
double-edged swords take apre-match offer, yeah, yeah,
that's actually superinteresting.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
I never because.
So I think in the end maybethere's a couple that I just
didn't know about, but theydidn't seem like a ton, and so I
really am curious about, like,how the pre-match works.
Like whenever did they give you, like the full contract and
everything and you're able todecide which one?

Speaker 2 (50:39):
my situation.
I actually didn't get an offerfrom either of my pre-match
options that I like interviewedfor.
So I was like I was told thatyou can get an offer up until
like match Monday, because youhave to like obviously withdraw
from the match if you, if youchoose to take one of your
pre-match offers or any of yourpre-match offers or whatever it
is, because it's like a breachof contract to like enter the

(51:02):
match after that.
So it has to be before matchMonday.
It probably has to be beforelike programs make their match
list, I'm assuming because wedon't know what they make their
list, but we know what ours aredue, so I'm assuming and it has
to be before them.
So that whole time I was like,okay, like always check in my
email like a crazy person, whichis basically all of the
interviews even.
But you know, I was doing thatjust like trying to figure out

(51:23):
because there are a decentnumber and it is like scary to
think about because it's likeyou know you're you're making
like this early decision,essentially like if you're
referencing it back to like thecommon app and stuff from
college like, and then you'relike, oh, but what if?
What if, what if with all theother things that are on the
actual match list, like forMarch, so it's like it's back.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
I think there's good and bad about both, but there
there's a decent number of siteprograms like that yeah, like
you get, you get the opportunityat least choose like, at least
with the match, like you don'tget.
One of the bad things about thematch is you know you get to
rank it but you don't get tochoose like they're picking for
you.
If you get eighth on your list,you get eighth on your list
it's so great, like thinking,like, isn't that so crazy?

Speaker 2 (52:06):
yeah, it comes down to like a big little match list,
like you know.
If you're comparing it to, likeyou know, greek life or
something from college, we makelit.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
It's just two different lives that I have to,
like, make happy combinations, Idon't know it's yeah, I mean
it's, it's absolutely same, likeand I know a lot of people were
like, why would you be inMississippi?
And I chose them as my numberone, mainly because it was the
size and it was essentiallyeverything that I wanted level
one trauma center.

(52:36):
A lot of crazy stuff happened,you know, being an emergency
medicine, you, you want somechaos to happen.
Unfortunately, unfortunately soI definitely knew that that's
what I wanted.
But Like a lot of people don'tget to choose, like I kept, like
I I would always think aboutthe people that if I had chose

(52:57):
like there was a couple in NewYork and like in bad spots too
up there and stuff, and I waslike I really hope I don't have
to move, but I hate to say thatyou know, like I know that you
are still a resident there, butI was like just don't want to
have to go back and live inBrookdale or whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Well, I mean speaking on that like going off of what
you're saying I I was born andraised in New Jersey, so it was
like part of Jersey that waspretty suburban but it was it's
not too many miles outside of,you know the West side of
Manhattan.
So it's like always like thecity was in my backyard and then
I rotated a Nimbura, like Irotated in Queens.

(53:39):
I lived in Queens when thathappened and then I was like you
know what, being at Lincolnit's a very busy place in the
Bronx, in the South Bronx verylarge patient population,
revolving door, literally I waslike I think I need a little bit
of peace when I'm going to beworking in a place like this.

(53:59):
So I did not move to Manhattan,I literally moved to West
Escher County because it is apart of New York that's known
for its greenery and a lot ofits views alongside the Hudson
River that are like, not in ametropolitan area.
So I picked it for that reason,like I, yes, I love this coast,
but I think the coast can be alot.
It's very density populated andI mean that's a suggestion I

(54:23):
have to anybody who like wantsto be in this area, that's so.
You know it's a crazy place.
Sometimes there are options tonot live in the chaos, at least.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, manhattan is getting known for their other
style or their other type ofgreenery, not the oh yeah, yeah,
not the one in the store, butyou know no.
Yeah Well, they're putting thegreenery in the stores too
nowadays.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
They are.
For real yeah.
So it's nice to be a little bitaway from the chaos.
Yeah, do you literally live inyour hospital, or like do you
have some space between you and?

Speaker 1 (54:58):
So we live pretty close.
It's only like six minutes awayand that's like a drive.
But there's a lot of I mean inMississippi or like, because
we're in Jackson.
So there's there's likemultiple different like small
towns within the Jackson bubbleand then then there it's.
I think it's mainly likeflatlands and farmlands.

(55:19):
I really don't know if onlythis is like week number one for
me, but I live pretty close tohospital, which is kind of one
of the things I wanted, just incase anything happened.
I've done the whole thing whereI lived in Jersey City, but I
would transit to Brooklyn everyday and so I was like, okay,
which, I don't mind, riding thetrain, because then I can do

(55:40):
like you know I would.
I'm gonna do my U-Wallquestions on the train, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Honestly.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
But yeah, just the like, the whole just transiting
and all that, we found a goodspot here.
So yeah, luckily and luckilythere's like we got a three
bedroom with a back Yard andeverything for the same price
that I paid for the New Jerseystudio apartment.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Oh my God, wow, that's amazing.
These prices are insane.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
So yeah, so I mean, I promise you it is.
New York is expensive too, likeeverything here is two, two to
three times less expensive, andwhen you go out to yeah, when
you go out in New York, anybodythat's listening.
If you are in New York now, theprice of a cocktail is double

(56:29):
anywhere else in the world.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
And it's factual yeah .

Speaker 1 (56:34):
It is like even in Italy and Greece we'd go places
and like the drinks would.
The food would be expensive,but the drinks would be cheap.
And then you got to New Yorkand it's the exact opposite.
You're like what is going on?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
That sounds right.
I don't know what that meansabout New York City.
I love that.
It's quite a lot.
The cost of living is, and youknow it is tough in a time like
residency, where, like you know,it's not, it's not, you know,
the ideal salary that you'reprobably going to get when
you're done with your trainingand stuff like that.
So they do tell you that theyaccount for the cost of living,
but the cost of living is like alittle wild.
So I'm like, really Do you do,are you?

(57:07):
But you know it's okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yeah, I think you'll make.
Well, I don't know specificallyfor your program, but for the
emergency ones that they wereonly making, they would make
more like maybe like nine grandmore, but the price of living
and the price of housing and theprice of everything else
included is, you're not, you'renot coming out on top of all

(57:29):
that.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Because you're bleeding like it's just going
straight to rent or whatever.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
You know whatever you think but I'm sure you picked a
good spot and everything.
Did you have to do any liketraining and everything before?
Or are they just throwing youin the fire?

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah, yeah, there's.
There's been some training.
I started last Monday, on June20th, for you know more of the
all residents generic stuff,like you know any of those CPR,
bls, acls, things that you knowapply to all residents, and then
just like generic housekeepingthings for all of us, like for
us to know, like the union, thatwe're a part of things about

(58:07):
insurance and payment and stuff,and then this week it has sort
of broken off into all likedepartmental specific things, so
spending more time on the sitefloors and, yeah, the next
Monday is is day one.
So I would say it's like 10days of orientation stuff and
then you start working.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Yeah Well, that's pretty good then.
Yeah Well, at least where theycan show you how to get things
like where things are, how theEMR and everything works.
I mean because I know someprograms.
They are just kind of now.
Most programs do some sort oforientation thing, but some of
them get.
They get like tossed right intoit like there's not a full and

(58:49):
I get like a month where we'relike warming up for the ER.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
That's what I mean that's really good and I'm happy
that you have that, because youare going to be in a very fast
paced residency with a lot oftrauma most likely yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
But it's like a you do a bunch of skills essentially
skills training and stuff likethat so that when day one comes
they call you the super rotatorbecause you're going to be the
one just doing all theprocedures and everything that
pop up.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
It's like oh.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
That's right.
I'm glad you have some a fewdays of it though, instead of
being thrown into the fire.
That's intense.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Yeah, you don't want to be.
You don't want your first dayto be an emergency day.
You're like what they're like,you're going to let this person
die right now.
You're like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Oh my God, can you imagine like our last
experiences sometimes be like asim lab and you're like, oh,
it's real people now.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
What rotation are you starting with?
Are you going straight to likethe psych board?

Speaker 2 (59:51):
In our program.
You know, for anybody who'slistening in as interested in
psychiatry, I'm at LincolnHospital and it has a few
various rotations that you cando.
We have a psychiatric emergencyroom, we have inpatient
psychiatry floors, we do somestuff with neurology and instead
of being on the inpatient floorfor internal medicine, which is

(01:00:11):
what a lot of psychiatryprograms do, for intern year we
are in the outpatient clinic.
So there's like some weeks ofnightflow and other things like
that.
But I'm starting an inpatientwhich you know is pretty similar
.
I got very lucky that I wasalready in a New York City
health hospital for my medicalschool rotation, so it does help
to know like the lay of theland and maybe like the way the

(01:00:32):
work day goes.
So the inpatient is inpatientpsychiatry.
Where people are, you knowthey're for a short term stay or
a long term stay and yeah, it'snot the most intense thing
because they're not coming rightout of the psychiatric
emergency room.
They've been stabilized for atleast a few days before they
come upstairs to the hospitalsetting.

(01:00:53):
So I think, in terms of beinglike a brand new doctor, I'm a
little happy that I'm notstarting in something like
emergency, because that can be alittle bit daunting.
So yeah, I think it should gowell, hopefully.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Now you're going to do.
Yeah, I have literally no doubtthat you're going to do.
Fine, I remember the my firstcouple because I did psych at
Newbridge, which is to anybodythat doesn't know or I don't
know, did you do rotations there?

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
I know you did yourself I'm crazy, so I know
where, where exactly, you'retalking about.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
It's essentially a facility that is just psych
facility and it was.
I had never I'd seen likeemergency psych facilities and
I'd seen it all separate, butI'd never seen one that was like
this huge area and I mean itcan be a lot, especially if
you've got people coming fromthe psych emergency side into

(01:01:43):
the inpatient people that havebeen there a while and so I mean
it it's definitely chaotic.
Yeah, I will say that like Ithink with you being an
inpatient, everything you'regoing to get to see like how the
attending is, like you're goingto get to see the flow really
easily.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Yeah, and that's.
I think that's really helpfulbecause I feel like it's not
something that's super light,but it's also not, like you know
, in in psychiatry of course,like when someone is in in same
with like the main emergencyroom as well, like when
someone's coming in they're notcoming in with like a very small
mundane issue, like they're.
They're probably at their worstwhen they're coming through the
emergency.
So having any sort of medicalstabilization or psychiatric

(01:02:24):
stabilization is like it'shelpful, and then you don't have
to be like the first line.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
And I mean usually okay, like the one thing I love
about the emergency departmentthat is also one of the
hindrances when you're firststarting is there is no time to
adjust or you know, like, follownecessarily, like a typical
protocol, like you're just,everything is going to be
different.

(01:02:52):
And if you're, if you start in,you know emergency psych, like
you're, you're not going to getto see how everything else
operates outside of theemergency room.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
So I'm you know.
I think that's going to be agood place to start for y'all,
and is it?
Is each four or all four ofy'all?
Are you going to be in adifferent rotation at time?

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Part.
I feel like, yeah, they werenot always like together, if
anything were with one otherperson, like a buddy sort of
thing.
But in my program we have avery small program there is 16
of us total amongst the fouryears, so there's four in each
class.
So at any given moment, like weare, you know, we could be
together, we might not betogether, we might all be on
call, we might not be.
So I'm excited to see how thatschedule plays out.

(01:03:37):
But I think in the beginningthere was a couple of us that
are together but we branch offto do different rotations after
that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
So hopefully they'll be able to like allow you to
take.
You know, I know you get yourbreaks, like your mandated
breaks and everything, buthopefully, with being so with
the four people or whatever,like hopefully they won't be
like, hey, you're, you've got tobe at the hospital all the time
.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
I think we were I think all of us that match.
We were like a little nervousabout that, but I think they've
done a great job of, like youknow, trying to spread the
schedule out as much as they can, which is which is hard when
there's like not enough people,of course but, it's.
Also it's a testament to knowthat they know what everybody's
capacity is to, which is reallynice and really great about

(01:04:23):
programs.
So that's something to payattention to, to that people are
hearing you, seeing what you'redoing.
Those are the places you wantto be in.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's something to also ask when
you're looking into yourresidency, because I remember I
really liked this program.
It was a it.
They had six residents, sixlike incoming ER residents, but
every resident kept saying like,oh, but we really need to.
And they kept.
Every resident would tell melike, oh, man, we really need to

(01:04:50):
have more residents.
And I was like, oh, what doesthat really mean?
And nobody gives you a reallystraight answer in your
interviews and the even theresident coordinator or the
director had said somethingabout oh, we're looking into
getting four other ones, butit's probably not going to be
this year and we're not sure.
And I was like I'm confused ofwhat all this means.

(01:05:12):
And then one guy was like, hey,you going to be working all the
time and I was like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Cause he was like we need eight, cause they got
another facility but they didn'tget any more residents cause
they didn't get approved.
So they had to, which I'm not Iwouldn't have been necessarily.
That wasn't a make or break.
It was certainly higher, higherup on the list, but it was
definitely something that had tobe aware of and if you're not
looking for programs withoutflexibility, that's something to

(01:05:43):
at least consider.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
And I mean, if we're going back to even like paying
attention to these sorts ofthings, like that's, I had an
interview where I never got astraight answer either.
And I mean, again, I started tolearn like what the right
questions are to ask ininterviews and stuff.
And I wanted to know about callschedule and I wanted to know
about you know whether or notthey're approachable about time.
Like you know, those sorts ofthings are important to know,
cause it is a job at the end ofthe day.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
So I think you know people started to ask those
questions and every single timesomebody asked about the call
schedule, they're like itdepends, like it's hard to tell
you, like sometimes you could beon call one time or you could
have up to like seven 24 hourshifts in a month and I'm like
that's a very large range, I'mvery long.
We're going to have to dialback, circle back to that

(01:06:28):
because we don't know that makesa difference, because I feel
like I mean, I know both of ourspecialties are very different,
of course, but to not know whereyou stand on 24-hour shifts and
not have a set number for thattype of shift specifically, is
that scary Because you need torecover from those things.
You can't just be working on24-hour shifts multiple times a

(01:06:51):
week or many times a month.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Is this program going to work with me to make sure
that I don't just burn out?

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
That's a big thing to pay attention to as well.
I know that you and I willprobably learn even more about
that as we begin our journeyinto residency and stuff, but
the way there's so much burnoutculture in circling residency
and so many things that aremessing with people's mental
health when it comes to thatthat it's not something that I
feel like maybe there was a lotof previous thought of.

(01:07:22):
It's okay, you're just going toget through it, Just go wherever
go wherever you're going to doit and yeah, a lot of that is
true, especially for a USIMG,non-USIMG.
You can't bite the hand thatfeeds you, necessarily, but it's
really important to payattention to these things
because you have to be here toget through it.
You have to be a person alongthe way, Otherwise it's going to

(01:07:42):
be a very difficult journey.
And there's nothing wrong withrequiring those things for
yourself, which I think isanother thing that medical
students or aspiring physiciansfeel like they're not allowed,
like I can't ask for too much ofthis better than the other, but
you're a human and you'reallowed to ask for time to sleep
, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Yeah, and it's literally to bring it full
circle.
It's like what we were talkingabout with the tests, like when
you're stressed out and you haveeverything else going on, your
performance is going to sufferin a way, even if you don't
realize it, but you're not goingto be at your full potential.
I mean, I was just doing myemployee benefits and if

(01:08:21):
somebody, if some COVID orwhatever, which I don't know, if
you know they're going to makeus start paying back to student
loans now, now that we'refinally getting paid, they're
going to Like the timing of thatis so.
I was like I knew it was goingto happen.
Yeah, like when, if somethingterrible happens, you get a
reprieve from almost every otherkind of thing except for your

(01:08:43):
medical school career, becausethey're going to be like hey,
buddy, I don't care who died inyour family, You're going to, if
you take time off you got to,it's going to come back to haunt
you.
So yeah, I think, trying tofind that best program and
really like what you want to doto begin with, you know you got
to have to find people that aregoing to work with you and, you

(01:09:04):
know, try to help you out in thebest way.
How did you decide onpsychiatry?
Like what drove you to that?

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
I have a long relationship with psychiatry, I
feel like because I feel like itwas a specialty that I it was
like you know how we were sayinglike oh, I don't remember when
I met you Because, like I feellike I've always known you since
day one Like I feel a verysimilar relationship to
psychiatry in the sense that itwas always like something around
my life that I was likegravitated towards, and then,

(01:09:34):
when it was time to make adecision, I was like, oh duh,
like this is what I'm gonna do.
I studied psych grad studentwhen I was at Rutgers.
I studied psychology and publichealth and then, when I did
graduate school, all my researchwas in neuroscience and
psychiatry.
And it was crazy because itwasn't like, oh, I'm going to be
a psychiatrist is why I want todo those things.
It was just like more like anorganic interest that like

(01:09:56):
always fell into my lap.
So it's like there must be areason why, like, we're coming
back to each other so often andto even go off, without tying it
into our previous conversation,to really think about what you
want to pick in terms ofspecialty.
When I was making my decision, Iwas like, what is the thing?
Like what rotation was I on?
Where, like, even if I was themost tired I've ever been, I

(01:10:17):
still wanted to get up and go tothe hospital every single day,
Like on your worst possible day.
If you still want to go to thatrotation, you'd be like I can't
wait to get there and like dothis.
Or I can't wait to like seethis resident or like see my
other colleague that's anothermed student and do this, or you
can still simply just get out ofbed and go, which is like a
very big thing in itself, Likethat's for you.

(01:10:38):
You know what I mean?
I never felt that way aboutcertain other specialties, but I
felt so passionate aboutpsychiatry Like I was like I
love going to this rotation andI also felt similarly in
pediatrics.
So I did dual apply topediatrics and psychiatry
because I felt that same feelingof wanting to be there in both
rotations throughout the entirerotation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
So oh well, hey, that makes me feel so good to hear,
for one.
Like I could tell yourexcitement in your voice when
you talk about it, and Idefinitely agree to what you're
saying.
Like, if you whatever, likereally like, picks you up, like
I remember, and I had beenaround emergency medicine but I
didn't think that I was going todo it because my mom doesn't I

(01:11:21):
was like, oh no, I'm not goingto do maybe the same thing.
It's kind of like holding itback at arm's length and it's
like an old love.
Even if you try to hold it off,it still happens.
And but I remember I would giveB and I am my, I am rotations,
which I absolutely hated.
I cannot think I thought maybecardiology, but then I did a

(01:11:43):
couple I am rotations.
I was like, can't do it becauseI would be so excited just to
go to the ER for, to go see newpatients or whatever, like I
would just be like, oh yeah,like, and it would get me for
one out of being on the floorsor whatever.
But I would be like, oh yeah,of course I'll do that, you know
, and I just walk around andjust hear, like you know, you

(01:12:06):
see one guy walking aroundwithout his pants on and I'm
like ha feels good to be back inthe ERs are all the same, you
know, and so I like I rememberstuff like that that really made
me like I loved it.
But I also I do apply like I,because I was drawn to, because

(01:12:27):
you have more than one interest,for sure, and I was drawn to
general surgery as well Like Iloved.
I know I know that those twomay not seem like they match up
very well, but I was alwaysreally drawn to surgery and I
love like the operations, Like Istill probably I would sit in
there, like you know, not not tobe crass or whatever, but like

(01:12:52):
I, literally like I was on thespectrum, like I would just sit
there and watch people dooperations for days I could just
sit in there, I would justwatch their hands and think
about myself doing it.
And then they would like, doyou want to do this?
Like, yeah, for sure I could.
I could do it essentially allday.
But I realized that like thatwas not even though I got

(01:13:14):
enjoyment from being in the likein the operating room, I didn't
enjoy any of the other stuffthat came with surgery and I
didn't.
I knew that it would take meaway from like family and
everything like that.
Like I knew it would be waymore of a time commitment.
So I'm certainly happy withwhat I did.
But I mean, yeah, like evenwhen you do apply, it feels like

(01:13:35):
a dirty, like a, like a dirty Xor something to bring up.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
That's how I thought, and I think I did one of those
Instagram takeovers for a matchor resident and I think one of
the questions I got was like isit okay to do a little pie?
And like you know why?
Like, why did you do that?
Did you do that?
What was your journey with it?
And I was like my response tothat was like, do a little pie
because you want to do a littlepie, just like anything else you

(01:14:00):
put on the application.
Do it because you want to.
And, like you said, people havevaried interests.
Some people go into med schoolknowing exactly what they want
to do and that's exactly whatthey're going to apply for.
But I think there's so muchconversation, especially when
you're talking to a US IMG or anon US IMG, that they have to
apply to everything because thatbroadens their chances.
And I understand that theory, Iunderstand that thought process

(01:14:22):
, but I also believe that don'tapply to everything just for the
sake of applying to it either.
You know, like I feel like youreally need to tell yourself
that you're going to be doingthis for the rest of your life
and if you can be okay with that, making that mental decision
before you make that decisionlike then you know that you
should do apply Like it is goingto be your job for the rest of

(01:14:42):
your life.
So you really want to not do itfor the sake of just getting
that match Monday, you know, butit's hard to think that way
when you're in the process.
I know it's very daunting, but100%.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
Yeah, and I know people that do that exact same
thing where and it kind of makesme like I want to be like stop,
please, just don't do it,because some people dual apply.
I know some people that dualapply site but they also do
internal medicine and they haveno interest in doing internal
medicine but they know thatthere's a, there's a good chance

(01:15:13):
that they, because there's justso many people that they accept
every year.
And I knew a guy that was goingto do psych, internal and ER
and I was like I get that thisbroadens your chances, but
you've got to really want to dothese and like I was left in
this weird confusion state whereI didn't necessarily know at

(01:15:34):
the time and I didn't want tomiss out on anything.
But if you're doing it justbecause, like you have a desire
to do one thing and you're likemaybe if I get in I can switch
after that, like you're betteroff not being an intern for two
years.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
You can do a plenty of other things and I really, if
I could recommend that toanybody, it would be that, yeah,
you should really just find.
If you know what your passionis and what you want to do, like
people will be impressed byyour determination and about
just doing that Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
They're like very like that's my goal, that's what
I've always wanted.
I'm going to do it For me.
I love them so much.
I also, I guess, in terms of alittle bit background too, I
worked as a teacher for while Iwas doing my masters and I work
with little kids, so I really Iliked Pete's too, and then I did
the rotation.
I was like, damn, I like thistoo.
Like I wanted to only like onething.

(01:16:29):
You know, I want to be like.
I'm going to be like my likelight bulb moment and that's it.
But I love them both so much.
And I told myself.
I was like how do I incorporateboth of those things in my life
?
Because I'm only going to matchin one of them, right?
So I told myself, and I alsotold myself that I would say
this if any interviewer asked melike, if I'm a pediatrician,
there's literally no way that,like there's no rule saying that

(01:16:52):
I can't be a mental healthadvocate.
I can very much so be apediatrician, that's, advocating
for mental health, for theyouth population.
If I'm a psychiatrist, I can dothat for sure, and I can like
learn things about the genericinternal medicine aspect of the
drugs that we use in psychiatryand I can also do child
adolescent psychiatry.
So there's there was a way forme to make both things possible

(01:17:15):
and still be happy doing themVersus.
Like you know, it's hard, likeit's hard to see, like some of
those things intersectingbecause every specialty has,
like its own uniqueness for sure.
But if you can see yourselflike fitting into them or making
your own niche, no matter whatyou match into, I think that's
like a good way to like makeyour decision about dual plying

(01:17:35):
maybe not like just because Ineed to match or something you
know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:39):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that is honestly, that's
great, that you even gave itthat thought process.
I'm laughing because I'mthinking about my like you are a
godsend, because when I did mypeed psych, I mean when I did my
psych rotation, I thought andthings were a little troubled,
like when I was growing up, likewhen I was kid, right.

(01:18:02):
So I was like, oh, peed psych,like I'm gonna go in there, I'm
gonna help these kids like Iwant to.
I want to get in there and likebe comforting and make a
difference.
And then I was like it was justso much.
I was like, oh my God, I waslike I can't do it, I needed, I
had to go.
I was like I need a beer aftermy like last I did it for a week

(01:18:26):
.
I was like I can't do this, Ican't, and I was so excited for
it.
And it's just because you haveto deal with such like hardships
.
And then there's their kids, sothey don't have the control
that an adult does.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
I agree, and I think the way things are going to like
there's, there's so much Iremember, like when we were kids
, like the only social medianetwork that my parents allowed
me to have anyways was Facebook,right, but like there are so
many things there that like andit just it just breaks my heart,
honestly.
And what is the one of mydesires to push for?

(01:19:04):
Child adolescents psychiatry?
You know, I will keep my mindopen for any of the other
specialties in psych, of course,but it's like there's so much
out there and I just want tolike hold them all because
there's like TikTok, there's,you know, all these different,
various like forums to putthemselves on and be vulnerable
in, and it just scares me thatthere's like where does it end,
you know?

(01:19:24):
And with the way suicide isgoing and the way you know it's
really affecting people who areunder 21 years old, it's like I
want there to be more of acommunity for their support,
because I feel like a lot ofthings that happen to us, that
we think about when we reflecton and we even have trauma from,
happen when we're under 21years old and it helps you form

(01:19:45):
your like defense mechanisms, itputs up your walls for when
you're an adult and a lot ofpsychiatry is breaking those
things.
So I feel, if there's enough ofus to pursue child adolescent
psychiatry like you're you'renot in this like tertiary or
like coronary method ofprevention at this point, like
you're at the primary, secondarymethods of prevention, which is

(01:20:08):
like great, you're avoidingsuicide, you're avoiding so many
other things that are so muchharder to unlearn when you're an
adult, that I just I reallyhope there's a strong enough
community of psychiatrists thatwant to do this.
It is tough.
I agree with everything you'resaying.
It is.
It's a lot.
It's a lot to be on thereceiving end of when you're
hearing about it, but it's justso neat.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
It really is yeah, oh , it's probably the most needed,
because, once you know, it'sgreat to hear your thoughts on
it, because I, I think the samething, like when they're much
older.
You know, it's very hard tobreak a habit and I even even
later in my life it took me.
You know, like you have to likebe comfortable with yourself

(01:20:52):
and you have to have theserealizations.
You have to really think backon on things.
And then you're like, okay,like I guess I am acting out
because of this reason orwhatever, but you never think
about that when it's happening,like he's like an argument with
your significant other, whatever.
At the time you're like, oh, iseverybody out to get me?
What is this?

(01:21:12):
And then you look back andyou're like, oh, I was the wrong
one the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
But it never happens during it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
It takes like five.
Yeah, you got to separateyourself and then you're like,
oh, I'm an idiot, no, but worse.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
you know it's like that sounds bad to say, but I
feel like you know it's so muchmore work to have to relive
something that happened so longago because you haven't been
able to internalize it untillater on in life, like if we
have this opportunity to helppeople as it's happening, which
is what we do with everythingelse, you know in medicine like
we're doing primary prevention,secondary prevention for

(01:21:47):
diabetes, cholesterol,cardiovascular disease, like
anything that's related toanything physiological.
And this organ that we have hereis the one that's the most
complex, is what separates usfrom everybody else on this
planet, and it has the power toend everything out ever.
It has the power to end everyother organ and it's so much
harder to unlearn those habitsabout not wanting to be on this

(01:22:09):
earth, about having, like veryconvoluted ways of thinking or
anxiety or even schizophrenia,all of these things like, if
they're addressed earlier inlife, like there's so much more
of a chance of a healthier lifelater on.
And I hope that there's enoughpeople that want to do child
adolescence psychiatry,including myself, because who
knows what residency will bring.

Speaker 1 (01:22:30):
But you know we're not saying that you have to
commit to it, but yeah, Idefinitely, I definitely agree
with what you're saying and itis a very desired role in the
community.
I won't because, yeah, thatprimary prevention is what we're
doing for literally everythingelse.

(01:22:50):
And I think, and I think thatwith social media and everything
, it's like a dual edged sword,because for one, you completely
dissociate, in a way like ifsomething bad's happened to you,
or it's like my meeting today Igot super bored.
I almost instantly clickInstagram, you know, like just

(01:23:12):
to see for one second and thenI'm like what am I doing?
You're an idiot.
But if something else isterrible is going on and you see
it a lot like people will startto live their lives online and
they'll kind of step away fromthe present and then, or what's
going on?
Like actually to them becauseyou can be somebody different

(01:23:33):
online.
But also you're notinternalizing that at all,
you're not trying to figure itout, you're not processing it,
you're just pushing it off.
But I guess for some people itallows them that space they can
like they probably need a littlespace, but I do think, like
what you're saying, like whereyou can internalize and get to
the bottom of it early, it'sprobably for the best.

(01:23:56):
So you know it's like a.
It's a double edged sword.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Social media.
It's great for things like this.
Like you have a podcast, youhave this like forum to like
share ideas about things andlike maybe get conversations
started.
It's a place for us to allshare news and like keep up with
what's happening in the world.
That's like something that wewould have never been able to do
, like to help other people inplaces that we're not like
physically in.
So it's like a really good toolfor that.
And it's also a fun tool liketo like share fun things like

(01:24:23):
with your friends and family onthe internet.
But it's like I agree it's likea double edged sword and it
like gives you this potential tohave like such a dissonance
between what's happening in thereal world and what's happening
on your phone, like, and there'speople that like it's like this
mentality.
I feel like that didn't existbefore and I mean I'm a culprit
of it, like I'm not immune tothis at all whatsoever when I'm
saying that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
Yeah, that's why I realize it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
Yeah, I'm realizing it because I like do it, like
I'm not like this, like you know, awesome person, that's like so
like pure and above it, butlike we all post what we're
doing online for stories andstuff like that, so like we've
created like this reality onlinethat might be be very similar
to the one in real life and forsome people it might not be and

(01:25:05):
it's like a statement in someways so.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
And it's really easy when you're supposed to be
studying or doing something else.
Oh, yeah, or yeah, at the very,very little and I'm gone.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
It's not going for hours, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
Not here anymore, but yeah, so is there a fellowship
that you're thinking?
I mean, I know we talked alittle bit about childhood, but
are you just kind of letting itgo, take you wherever it goes?

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
I yeah, I'm going into it like because I'm very
curious and interested in childadolescence psychiatry.
But I want to keep my mind openbecause I feel like, like you
said earlier in the conversation, lincoln is the place where I'm
going to see everything.
So it's like who knows what I'mgoing to see or be exposed to
that could maybe want me tokickstart a career out of that
too.
But we'll see.
There's like a few options inpsych now.

(01:25:50):
There's addiction, psychiatry,forensics, like for anybody
interested in psych.
There's numerous fellowshipsout there.
Child adolescent can even do,you know, just specifically
emergency medicine, psych stuff.
So there's a lot of ways to runwith your career, thankfully,
so the world is your oyster girl.
Yeah, and yours too.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
Yeah, so hopefully I'll be able to pick something
where I'll be able to builddouble every time something
happens.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
I mean listen, this Biden unfreeze situation yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
Yeah, I need another freeze.
Somebody come out with the next.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
Because, like, we're both going to be on the
frontline of that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
Okay, I backtrack, I backtrack, but yeah, so I just
have one last question, becauseI know we had talked a little
bit about using match orresident and everything.
Did you use any other liketools or anything for the match
process and like figuring outhow you were going to apply to

(01:26:54):
which programs or what you coulddo?

Speaker 2 (01:26:58):
Yeah, I use match or resident.
I used, since I dual applied.
I used it for pediatrics andpsychiatry to help me make my
list of programs, because thatis my gosh.
If I tried to apply to all ofboth of them, that would have
been a lot of programs and a lotof money actually, and it was
helpful.
Honestly, it was really helpful.
Now that I'm looking at itretrospectively, based on like

(01:27:20):
interviews I received for bothpediatrics and psychiatry, a lot
of them were on the list thatmatch or resident gave me or
produced for me, based on all ofmy information, so I'm very
thankful for that.
That was helpful.
Then, in terms of the interviewprocess, I did try to, in terms
of resources, I would go onlineand try to find some common
questions that were asked thatyear and try to flesh out some

(01:27:41):
of my own template answers ofthem before interview season
started, and I practice in reallife with a friend, because I
feel like you can type out allthese things but you're not
going to be staring at thatparagraph that you typed out
during the interview.
So it was helpful to likeactually talk to somebody and do
an interview and have them askme questions real time, and I
really recommend that.

(01:28:01):
I really recommend practicingwith, like somebody you know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
Yeah, it's super expensive to use all the
resources you can to narrow itdown, but the most helpful tool
that I have was doing I did afake interview with PJ, oh, and
we, honestly, we did one andthen we did another.
No, I don't even know if we gotto do our first one, maybe we

(01:28:25):
just did the one and weinterviewed, we like recorded it
and we made it a podcast.
But I'm so glad he asked me onequestion.
I'm so glad we did this becausehe asked me one question and
the internet stream like wentout and I came back and I was
like, oh, what is somethingabout leadership or something?
And he goes oh, you really hadto cancel the call because of

(01:28:47):
that, and I was, so for one, Iwas glad because I barely edited
that one and I had a terribleanswer for that.
I was being very honest with my,you know, with ourselves, and.
But I came to find out that,like, a lot of the questions
that I was thinking of formyself didn't pop up, but they
popped up in his, and then a lotof questions he thought of for

(01:29:10):
me popped up on for me somehow,and so I don't know if they just
watched that episode and theywere like I'm just going to hit
him with the questions.
He sucked at the first time,but by the time it came around
like because the first time aquestion is asked for you, you
you kind of can't figure out howto specifically say it and it

(01:29:32):
may lead to you going uh, uh, uhor not elaborating very well,
and it takes like the second orthird time for you to really get
like that rhythm of how I'mknowing how to answer
specifically the question and doit well.
And so the practice with afriend is, it was so helpful, it

(01:29:54):
was beyond and like they letyou come up with questions, let
them come up with questions,come up with quirky ones, come
up with serious ones, and justsee how it goes.
Because that was, yeah, I agreewith you.
If that was helpful for you, itwas certainly helpful for me.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
It was really helpful with the like.
There are some genericquestions that people are going
to ask you Like I think this isa dreaded question for everybody
.
They'll like tell me aboutyourself.
One which is like it's.
It sounds like such an easything to ask somebody, but the
refieving in is like oh my God,what do I say?
Yeah, so I actually likepracticed a couple responses of

(01:30:33):
that Like and I really based myresponse off of the vibe in the
interview and like whatever washappening in real time, but I
had like ideas of variousdifferent responses to the tell
me about yourself questionbecause it's such a broad
question.

Speaker 1 (01:30:50):
Yeah, and I mean there's so many things you can
say.
And the I will say too, becausewe were talking about PJ and
everything like he was very,like, we were very critical and
it was funny because at first wewere like, oh, good answer.
And then you know, let's say, Icritiqued one of his answers
and then the next time he waslike how about you say it with
more conviction next time, youknow?

(01:31:11):
Or well, no, I'm not justplaying, he didn't say it like
that, but he was like you knowyou got to say it, you know you
got to say the answer, but andnot actually, because sometimes
when you do feedback, you'rejust like, oh yeah, good job,
man, good job, man, good job.
But you don't ever say how theycan help out on it.

(01:31:32):
And then I remember everythingthat he told me, like whenever I
was starting to stumble orbeing very long winded sometimes
I could be long winded,searching for the right thing to
say it allowed me to tighten itup, like I knew I needed to
tighten it up, like my tell meabout yourself was super long

(01:31:53):
winded.
It was like I'm from a smalltown and then I come around and
blah, blah, blah and I starthere.
Then I do this and I make apodcast, and he was like shorten
it in any way, like make it belike oh yeah, I do this, that,
this, this, and then I do.
I just hit the main points thatyou think that they're going to
want to hear, and yeah, so oh,this, this.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
Oh, I forgot about that.
I forgot about that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
Yeah, you start telling your story and then
you're like, oh, I got plenty oftime.
And then they're like you know,you just spent the whole
interview talking.
One question.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
And it's always like the first one to.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
Yeah, yeah.
So I essentially just keptthrowing them fodder, Like, oh
okay, like, do you like this ordo you like you know college for
it to be like whatever?
If I saw some college sportsthings, I'd be like, yeah, I
played football and I, yeah, youhave like your go to, and so
that, yeah, that was superhelpful and to I don't know if

(01:32:52):
you I guess you you may not havedone it on a video, but it was
actually very helpful to me forus to video each other and then
us watch it, because you realizethat you're doing like this and
you're yeah moving your headall the time and then you start
getting better at it, justbecause you if you don't realize

(01:33:14):
it like, if you don't likeediting this podcast I recognize
how many times I said um orlike and so it really helped me
prevent myself from saying it.
Because you're like, are youreally saying the same word
every time somebody asks aquestion?

Speaker 2 (01:33:30):
And I mean, and the thing is, like you you think
that oh, I'm a conversationalistor in somebody who's like,
really I don't have a problemlike interviewing at all.
I'm sure those things are verytrue.
In a lot of ways I'm sure theyare, but, like you said, like
you need to kind of flesh thosethings out, because it's so
different when you're like onreal time and someone assessing
you and it's like a jobinterview.

(01:33:52):
You know, it's a job interviewat the end of the day, you don't
realize those things and I'msure even with
conversationalists like, it'sprobably something that comes
very naturally.
But you also just want to avoidsome of those things.

Speaker 1 (01:34:06):
Yeah and there's a lot of people that are paying
attention to those things andthey're going to get way sharper
than you by the end if they'repaying attention to it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:15):
That is very true.
It's literally they're so usedto this now they like see so
many candidates all the time, soI'm sure like they know what to
look for and what to not likeand all those things Practice
practice, practice, baby.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
Hey, that's all in medicine, right there.
Well, that's a great way to endit.
Then keep practicing, everybody.
Yeah, trish, thank you so muchfor coming.
If anybody wants to reach outto her, I'm not going to give
all of your information, but youcan find.
You can email us at off whitecoat podcast at gmailcom, or
we're on all the social media.

(01:34:49):
So off white coat podcast,reach out to us.
I can all of that them for youin case there's anything.
No, we really appreciate youcoming through and sharing your
wisdom is just going to catch upwith you again.

Speaker 2 (01:35:06):
Of course I love this .
I'm so glad that you knowthrough graduation and now we've
had a few conversations beforeresidency kicks off.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
So yeah, we'll have to not make it so so much time
in between the next.

Speaker 2 (01:35:18):
Definitely not, definitely not, but thank you
for having this, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:35:22):
Thank you everybody for listening.
We'll see you.

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