Unveiling the Complexities of Abortion Care: A Nurse's Perspective ft. Patrice D'Amato

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan Abney (00:07):
Hello everybody and welcome to the Off White
Coat podcast.
I'm your host, Jordan Abney,and today I'm joined by a very
special guest.
She's the author of The ViewFrom the Clinic: one nurse's
journey in abortion care.
She has been working for 38years as a practicing nurse in
both clinical and academicaspects of this field.

(00:27):
She's been in abortion clinicfor many years and she's here to
speak with us today.
Please help me welcome PatriceD'Amato.
Perfect, Did I get it?
That's right, You did.

Patrice D'Amato (00:38):
That was perfect.
Thank you, it's so great to behere.

Yes, yes, i'm just glad that you actually wanted
to speak with us and everything.
I read a little bit of theexcerpt of your book and we have
something in common.
Yeah, we're both Hispanic files.
Oh good, i love the Spanishculture as well.
It feels like every time I goanywhere, it's either to South

(01:03):
America or Latin America.

Yeah, yeah.

So starting to pick up Spanish just a little
bit.
It's still pretty bad, but Yeah, i'm not great either.

I'm okay, but yeah.

It's the getting around.
Yeah, i guess that's one pointthat I did want to bring up
because I've read it, as theexcerpt in your book was you had
the lady that there was justthe language barrier set up, she
was drinking the mate orwhatever.

Yeah.

And the pill the lady was taking I think correct
me if I'm wrong, but it was thebirth control pill, yep, and it
was actually falling under theleaves or whatever, of the drink
.
And that was something that Iactually experienced once before
was this lady was drinking thischocolate drink that was given

(01:51):
to her from her friend And shesaid it was to get rid of
headaches, but her blood sugarshot up into the 400s And so she
was diabetic and everything.
And she just told me the nameand luckily, i went and looked
it up and then I showed aresident and the resident was
like, oh, that's a culturalthing That's got condensed milk

(02:12):
and chocolate and everything.
And I was like, oh, this iswhat's causing her blood sugar
to shoot up.
Yeah Right, and so you do haveto pay attention to the cultural
stuff And that's.
You know, that was just aunique thing that I saw.
I read in the book.
I was like, oh, we've had asimilar situation with that one.

You'll see more .
You'll see a lot more.

Yeah, all the time .
Yeah, yeah, i really justwanted to.
Besides getting on that wholeside, i wanted to ask you about,
like, your time.
So how many years have you beena nurse And are you still a
nurse right now?

I am working like I would say I call myself
sent me retired.
So I've been a nurse now for 39years Yeah, a really long time.
So I always tell people I youknow, nursing school can be very
short.
So I was 20 when I became aregistered nurse.
So I used to joke It wasn'tactually a joke, it was funny I

(03:08):
couldn't go out after work.
I would give morphine IVmorphine all day long, and then
I couldn't go out for a drinkafter work.

I was underage.
Oh yes.

I was underage, so that's why I just say I'm
not that old, i just startedreally young, but yeah, so the
trajectory into nursing can bepretty short, unlike medical
school, which takes so long.

So yeah, i'm like at the edge of 30 and.

I know it's, you know it's just crazy to me
and it's just frustrating.
So yeah, but I did keep goingback to school.
So I always worked.
I worked as an RN.
I went back for my bachelor'sdegree, I went back for my
master's degree.
all while working, you know, Iwas ending up taking, like I had
to keep taking organic chemagain because the other one

(04:00):
didn't, you know, transfer tothe next university and all.
So I was like working as an RNon a med surge unit in the
evenings, three to 11 shift, andI was going back to school
taking chem, bio, all that stuffin the mornings.
So it's like backwards a littlebit from medical school or it
can be, Yeah, So it's.
it's kind of kind of wild.

Did you always know you wanted to go into
nursing?

I did.

I did.

So I actually have a chapter in the book all
about my mom, Doris the nurse.
So my mom was a nurse and sheactually was the person who,
well, you know I didn't go intoabortion care till later, but
she certainly got my backupabout it because she worked as a
nurse in the fifties.
I mean she was a student nurseand then she had to.

(04:47):
Once you get married, you'renot, you weren't allowed to be a
nurse anymore, like you had toleave, you had to go be a
housewife, yeah, and she wasreally bummed out because she
really loved working but she hadkids and that was what you did
in the sixties.
But she did tell us stories andI don't want to give it all
away because it's in the book,but she did tell us stories
about the time before abortionwas legal and what that looked

(05:08):
like in the hospital She went.
She went from a rural town whereshe grew up and she went to
work in the big city and, youknow, saw patients and there's
one I described prettypoignantly that she described to
me who you know was raped.
It was a woman, a married woman, who had been raped and was
forced to carry the pregnancy,and my mom was there, you know

(05:29):
not to get into it a lot, but itwas a question of you know the
paternity question was prettyclear once the baby was born
that this was the result of therape, not from her husband, and
you know there was so much drama.
The husband left her.
You know the baby was like Idon't know, they don't know,
given up for adoption orwhatever.

(05:51):
So anyway, my mom's storieswere like really powerful for me
and did help shape some of myinterests.
I didn't go into OBGYN, i didn'tgo into women's health actually
, and it's not my favorite thing, to be honest with you, and
again I outlined that in detailin the book, so I don't want to
go into all of that but, i, didspend most of my time with you

(06:14):
know, yeah, yeah, yeah, thankyou Just a plug but I already
say it.
So there's a and it's an easybook.
It's an easy kind of fun, Like,if you can believe it.
It's a lot of.
It's really funny, especiallyto medical professionals.

Yeah, The way you were like describing everybody,
I was like oh, okay, like yeahmore fun than like medical
textbooks.
It's like boom boom, boom, boomboom.

You know somebody said to me.
they were like this is like agirlfriend's guide to abortion.
I was like, yes, and that'swhat I want.
I don't want to be likelecturing people.
There is a whole chapter aboutthe history of abortion I'll
talk about, you know, medicalcare and all that kind of stuff.
but I really just want this tobe, you know, like an
informative but entertainingthing.
So, anyway, i did go intonursing.
My mom, you know, kind ofopened the door.

(06:59):
I was really sick of hospitals,like sick of hospitals.
I had worked in hospitals forlike 14 years.
And I was like I got.
I got my master's, i became anurse practitioner, so I left
and went to the abortion clinics, worked there for like eight
years.
Then I went into teaching.
I taught at the university fora while And only recently I
started working for the abortionclinics Again.

(07:21):
I always call that my women'shealth home because it really
hasn't been the major focus ofmy career, but I do love that.
I do love that care.
So right now I'm workingpart-time for them.
I'm actually doing telehealthtelemedicine So I handle the
calls from patients who areexperiencing complications or

(07:42):
have questions post-abortionboth medical and what we call
surgical or in-office abortions,that you know really want to
call it surgical, necessarily,but we still kind of just call
it that.

Yeah, how many patients do you usually see a
day?

Well, right now I'm only working remotely and
I'm on call.
So, like I'll just be on calllike 24 hours And it depends.
I mean I cover five clinics indifferent states, So Georgia has
become very quiet because ofthe loss.

Yeah, so it used to be my hop in.

It was my hop in state And you know I would
get calls from all you knowneighboring states and it was
always really a challenge,because we you know the
challenges, like you know I hadone woman.
I was, yeah, you should comeback and be seen, and it was
something like she had aretained sponge or something and
I was like, okay, we'll get youin and we'll just and she said,
no, give, i have a mirror, tellme what to do.

(08:36):
I just drove 12 hours fromTexas.

Oh, my goodness.

Yep.
So I was like can I curse?

Yeah, you can.
No, you can certainly curse,though It's fair game.

God, I was like shit, shit, You know So, and
you know a couple other right,like it was just like a thing
that.
So anyway, it's been nuts.
And then, like you know, i havepatients like who are coming
over from other states, likeI've had, and mostly in the
South, i will say, likeMississippi, alabama, and
they're like I'm not going to myhospital Are you kidding me?
Cause I'm like you got to go tothe ER.

(09:09):
Yeah, so I do manage people andI try to manage as much as I
can on the phone, but right nowI'm working in the capacity of
being an RN.
I put my nurse practitionerlicense on an active cause.
I don't really like being anurse practitioner.
It's like I could have gone tomed school.
That's really, you know.
It is The job of a mid-levelprovider, without you know, and

(09:30):
I really love the aspects ofbeing an RN.
So I'm older now and I'm prettyconfident in who I am and what
I do And I I don't need to workin that capacity.
So right now I'm really reallyloving just working as a nurse
and talking to people throughstuff.

Yeah, You can tell .
You can tell by like thepassion in your voice and like
you just seem really excitedwhen you're like, ah, so that's
awesome, It seems like you're inthe right spot.
Yeah, Cause that was somethingthat I learned recently too.
Like I've had been looking upstuff.
Is that sometimes, when peopletravel, there was like and I
think it was in like the stateof Missouri or whatever that

(10:08):
they were talking about You had72 hours.
I didn't really understand They.
There was like a gap where youhad to wait 72 hours.
They would drive 12 hours andwait 72.
And then which?
I guess that was just to givethem a chance to reach their
mind.

Yes, it's like a waiting period, you know, and
okay, i, i, okay, i guess I getit, but this one lady.

it was due for her own safety, I think she had
adenomyosis or some other kindof uterine at knee So there was
no way it was going to happen.
She had a whole emotionalincident.
It was a pretty interestingdocumentary is abortion stories
women tell and it's on HBO orwhatever.
but it it gave me at least alittle bit more insight and at

(10:56):
least to some of the lumped itjust shows that she was very
emotional.
Things that, because I don'tnecessarily keep up with all of
the laws you could probably tellme oh, i can't either.

I mean they're.
They're so nebulous, that's theproblem.
Yeah, but yeah, and then theuterine.
At me I mean like she was atrisk, but okay, so she was at
risk having the procedure, she'salso at risk carrying the
pregnancy like it's just ashitty situation.

Yeah, so what was that common to?
did you see that I'm curious toknow, like how many of the
people and this is withoutbreaking like HIPAA or whatever,
but oh, yeah like how many, howmany people came in and
actually had like one of thehard nose for pregnancy, or I
guess you could go first on likewhat would be like a hard?
no, like you wouldn't want thatperson.

He said hard nose.
I'm like what a heart Yeah.

Indication.

Thank you, Thank you, okay, so Very few.
I mean well, and the otherthing is they get pre-screened.
So you know it's a surgerycenter, it's ambulatory care.
Basically it's an ambulatorysurgery center.
So anybody who you know mighthave like Factor X, like
Christmas tree disease or likecontraindications to anesthesia

(12:06):
or, you know, like weird thingslike that, they would be
referred to the hospital.
So that stuff it gets done, it'sjust considered a high-risk
case.
So and there's there's not alot of them because these are
young, you know, women ofchildbearing age, so you don't
see a lot of really weird thingsgenerally in that population,
which was part of what drew drewme to it too, after working in

(12:27):
hospitals and seeing the sick inUniversity hospitals, like
where people are transferred infrom outside hospitals and you
just see, like the crazy, sick,weird stuff that you see.
So when you you know in a, in afreestanding clinic, you just
send you know young, healthypeople.
So there's very few, yeah, veryfew.

I didn't know if they were like how many were
elective and then how many wereLike they saw yeah, yeah.

So we did get some that were not like so we
would.
I would say like 98% wereelective.
But then we did see patientswith fetal demise And I I did
write about that too becauselike that's really hard when you
have somebody who has a fetaldemise especially You know, i'm
giving all my chapters away Butsomebody who may have gone
through a lot of infertilitytreatment and I saw it, you know

(13:14):
And then they show up andthey're like 14 weeks and it was
fetal demise and they'resitting next.
All these people Who are havingan elective abortion.
Like it sucks, it's just It's areally hard situation.
But how many?
it was rare, like well, likenot I mean rare, rare because
like it's weird.
But abortion clinic, likeabortion sort, like the

(13:34):
procedure and stuff, it's aspecialty and so you know, to
get really good, effective care,you would send these people to
like a women's center, anabortion clinic, because we know
what we're doing.
You know, and so it was, thatthat's always a challenge when
you have somebody who's thereAnd they're not super happy
about it, like always I wouldsay you know anybody who's

(13:55):
wearing maternity clothes whenthey come in They're not happy
to be there like they wantedthis baby.

Yeah, yeah, that's tough, yeah they, because I
mean for one, if there's likefetal demise or something That's
already tragic as it is, andthen to have to go somewhere
else and do all this it can be,i can imagine that the job was
emotional On a day-to-day basisand now what's happening?

This is even sicker and worse is that, like
somebody like that, if they'rein the hospital and they had
fetal demise, like The laws areso unclear that there's a lot of
places Is where the, the objyn's are and the nurses, like
the staff, are standing aroundwaiting for this woman to get
septic Because they're notallowed to.
They're not allowed, they'renot permitted To terminate the

(14:44):
pregnancy until the mother'slife is at risk.
And I'm not kidding you.

I am not goodness, So yeah that's what I was about
to say.

So they're standing there like huh, How
septic is she?
How long do we wait?
And you know, when somebody'sseptic you don't have there's no
cookie cutter answer to thatAnd they could end up just dying
because, like you know, it'ssepsis right.

Yeah.

I.
I don't know how people do it.

I don't.
Yeah, it's not really best towait till they're septic to
treat sepsis Right.

So they're like trying to figure out am I gonna
get?
am I gonna be hauled off tojail for doing this?
Like, how do we document that?

You know like it and it can be tricky, especially
when there's laws in place thataren't associated with a
hospital.
like you know, in the hospital,if the hospital was to govern
themselves, they would say, ohokay, we need to just do this,
but Right, or there would be aboard or protocols or something.

But there are no protocols, because these were
.
These don't even make sense.
These like wait till themother's life is at risk.
Even though you know you knowthere's ancephaly, the baby
doesn't even have it like brainmatter.
That's sick and cruel andthat's what's happening.

So if the state says it's completely illegal and
something like that happens, iguess that's when they have to
just wait until the mother'slife is in jeopardy.
Do you know how many statesthat is?

Well, there's, i think there's 15 states with
restrictions.
The restrictions vary and I amno expert on this stuff, like
I'm a clinician, just like you.
So I, i don't, i just I can'teven like I have enough to do.

You see the yeah, you see the people too.
Which is one of the hardestpart is when you see like the
actual person and theirindividual issue and it trumps
all the other politics.
Oh my god.

Yeah, but it all sits on it right.
So, like I was like when I wasgoing back to return to work for
the clinics and I'm talking toyou know The interviewer, and
she's like, oh, i gotta go.
They, the protesters, just cutour, cut our, our water lines
And we're in the middle ofsurgery day.
They have all these patients,you know like 30 patients in
there.
They're in the middle of doingcases and the protesters managed

(16:51):
to cut their hot and cold waterlines So they had no water.
Like so that's on top of all ofthe yeah, the everyday stuff.
So It's just, it's just wildright now.

Yeah the.
The one thing that I did getthem like the most important
thing I got from thatdocumentary was like It seemed
like the biggest problem out ofall of it, because I'm I'm
neither choosing a stance, apolitical side or whatever But
the worst people that were doingthe most harm were the
protesters outside that werelike harassing Yeah the, the

(17:24):
ladies from one, obviously, ifyou protested on like Capitol
Hill or anywhere else, but tostand outside the actual place
and like, oh yeah, because theybadgered the, not only the
people going in, but all theworkers going in, all the coming
out.

And so I was curious to I guess you've had
plenty of experience with yeah,oh, yeah, but I and I hate to
keep plugging this, but you willmy one of my other favorite
Chapters is about our friend theprotester, joe the protester.
So, yes, you get badgered in,you get badgered out, you get
spit on, you know, and you'rejust it's hard enough, the job
is hard.
Yeah, i mean you're just tryingto do ananda, oh man, you know I

(18:01):
went by the other day, i had todrop some stuff off and the,
you know, the protesters are outthere And I'm just gonna say
this, because I'm just gonna sayit, the, the, the white ladies
from the Catholic Church wereall out there with their.
You know, don't, don't, don't,abort.
Your baby will help you.
And then, outside the clinic,it was a busy day and you know,
all my african-american patientsare out there like on their

(18:22):
cell phones looking at them likelady, get a clue, get a clue.

Yeah.

So I just walk by it all, i'm just like, here I
am.

Yeah, and so you have to almost compartmentalize
and just walk in, blinded to thefact that all the chaos around
you is going.

Yes, Yes, yes, and you know, like it's just,
and everybody you know is there,like I.
This clinic is in a suburbansetting near, near my home.
So, like I know people thatgoing in and out on both sides,
like And they, you know, theysee me and I'm like hey.
Yeah hey, protester or.

Yeah, i do start to get to know the community one
way or another if you work in ahospital or clinic.

Oh yeah, if it's big enough.
You don't like I, then I, aftera while I just started working
over in the city, exclusivelybecause I was like I can't.
Um, i'm, you know, a soccer momhere.
I just, i know too many ofthese people and I am just out
of here because it was.
But in a small town, if you'redelivering care, absolutely, you
see people, you know and bothsides and these are not people

(19:27):
who want to see you.
Let me tell you, when you walkin with your white coat on to do
with their exam, they're post.
You know, i used to dofollow-ups and I walk in with my
stethoscope, my white coat, andthey're like, oh my god, i'm
like, listen, listen, we all Ihad my can to spiel about that
like, yes, it's me, yes, we knoweach other.
But and I will tell you Thatwhen I see you next week at pta,

(19:50):
i'm not saying anything and ifyou don't want to talk to me or
small talk, i totally get it.

Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah , i mean, because neither The
patient or the protester oranybody really wants to see you
in a white coat.

It really not there.

Not there, No that's what I meant, not.
Everywhere else, Yeah, that'sfine.
That's fine, I mean well itdepends.

You know there's other things that are
sensitive, but like you don'ttalk about that stuff and my
goal, honestly, is to changethat in life so that we can say
you know.
Like you can say, oh, how wasyour knee replacement?
Oh, you're doing good.
How was your abortion Are youdoing okay?
Yeah, good, like that's my goalis, and I do think young people
are getting a little bit more.
You know like, listen, don't bejudging.

(20:33):
No, you know no haters, so Ilove that.

I think the the problem is the judging, because
we all tend to choose A soap boxthat we stand on.
You know we like we'll be like,oh hi, mighty over here, but
then you know, we let it slipOver here.
Maybe we're glutton, but yeah,we believe in something else.
And so I feel like when we'rejudging other people, especially
if we don't Live in theirsituation, that's sometimes The

(20:59):
worst it breeds itself tohypocrisy, really.

On the other end, It is really endemic in
healthcare, in the healthcareprofession too.
And I will just say I wantedI'm glad you said that because I
wanted to talk about frequentflyers, because the nurses, when
I was on their podcast, theywere like, do you have frequent
flyers?
Like we have, you know, in the,in you know regular hospitals?
I'm like, of course we have, ofcourse you know, and I don't
think that people in abortioncare really want to talk about

(21:24):
that, but we see it in themedical community.
So you know, just like you havepeople who are, you know, in
chf and like why are they back?
We tuned them up, we did there,we did their license, we, we
educated and we did everything.
And like Two weeks later, therethey are with like an eight
pound weight gain and likeyou're like why?
And I think that we ashealthcare providers get super

(21:47):
judgmental and super frustrated.
I don't think we mean tonecessarily be judgmental.
Some people you know it's thehealthcare provider, some of us
do and especially students, arestill like I'm not gonna be like
that.

Yeah, every student says that, and then, for
some reason, 50% of people endup like it.

Like what I know?
I know it always it.
I guess it makes me laugh, butit makes me frustrated too.

So it does make you laugh because it's so funny.
There's so many idealisticpeople I'm like.
I feel like you're the first toturn.

You'll be the first one.
I know it's like don't do youknow, i'm never gonna be like
that preceptor that I had.
They were so mean, like why arethey so mean and hateful?
Well, you do get frustrated,but like you have to dig deeper,
like you said.
So that's why I love thatchapter about the lady.
Okay, so she was, you know, 48year old Latino female.
You know gravita, 15 Paraphora,and last week let me just add

(22:42):
to you that I had a 29 year oldI'm looking her up 15
pregnancies to children, and Isee it a lot.
Okay, i see it, i mean a lot,because 75% of my patients are,
you know, are eithersocioeconomically disadvantaged
or they're, you know, brown orblack, and you, you know, this

(23:04):
is a population of people whoare definitely being impacted
the most by these crazy lawsLike so and and.
So you have to ask yourself,like there's so many people say,
well, i mean, i believe inabortion, but like I believe in
it, but it shouldn't be used forbirth control, okay, all right.
Well, let's think about that.
Let's think about why issomebody using abortion that way

(23:28):
?
It's just like the CHF patientIt is.
It's just like that.
And we also don't do a greatjob of saying well, why, what's
the problem?
What is the problem with seven,eight or nine abortions before
your, you know, 27?
Let's talk about that.
There's, there are some, someissues with that.
But like why?
why is that a problem?

(23:49):
Is it because, like, the egg isalready fertilized?
Like, where are we with all ofthat?
And and I can tell you that mypatients don't always see it as
a problem- So why?
do.
Why do we?

Yeah, i mean I guess in the only because I I
assume that there would be morecomplications or more damage to
the body the longer you, if youkept going through this process
right, and especially if you letit go 12 weeks abort, 12 weeks
abort, 12 weeks abort,especially with the surgery, i
could see that And I could seemaybe where it would be more

(24:25):
like expensive, but I definitelythe judging is the problem that
I can't, because you're just tome, if they don't care, right,
like if they're paying for theservice or whatever, it's kind
of like, what do we?

do You know why are we judging the right?
Yeah, how do you?

judge somebody else is the biggest thing I have
a problem with.

Look at everybody's charts.
I get to look at all theirmedical and contraceptive
history And I will say to youthat these people are using they
are trying to use, birthcontrol.
Okay, like 90%, more probably95% of these charts.
When I look at somebody who is15th pregnancy, eighth
termination, i go back throughtheir chart.

(25:06):
They have tried everything.
So even then they've gotten themessage.
They've been on the pill,they've been on the patch,
they've done the shot, they'vehad the implant.
They run out of money.
They don't have the ability toget to a consistent provider,
like there's a million reasonsfor it.
So we have done a good job, ithink, of teaching people why it
probably isn't great to rely onabortion for birth control, but

(25:30):
there's so many socioeconomicand psychosocial issues around
why they do it.

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask is if is it a
lot of people just using it asbirth control, or it's more of
like lack of education orunderstanding of not just
education in a general sense,but like medical education and
understanding how all that works.
So now you keep gettingpregnant and you don't, you're
not even, you think you're nottrying, but yet you still keep

(25:58):
being pregnant, because that isdefinitely a problem.
Absolutely Yeah.

That's a huge problem, but part of the problem
, so part of the problem.
Yet I think people in thiscountry do know how you get
pregnant And most, like I said,90, 95% of the women have tried
something to prevent thesepregnancies.
It is complicated, though,because what often happens too,
is they're partners, so you'realso laying on top of this some

(26:26):
partners.
I can't tell you how many timesa woman has put me on the phone
and said please talk to myboyfriend, please talk to my
husband and tell him that why Ican't, you know why I can't keep
doing this, you know, or whyI'm not, i really can't have sex
right now, and so I would talk.
You know, i counsel a lot ofwomen because they're like when

(26:46):
can I have sex again?
I'm like well, when you feelready And more off, not more
often, no, not more often thannot.
But sometimes they'll be likecould you please tell my
boyfriend that I'm not allowedto have sex for the next six
weeks because he won't get offof me?

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm like well.

I mean I'm not gonna lie.

I need a doctor's note.
Right, exactly, yeah, so youhave all that going on as well.

I remember when I was in my OBGYN rotation is
there's some people that whilethey could go through with the
pregnancy like it might be veryunlikely to even go to full term
or whatever.
So I remember seeing this ladyand she was like 300, 350 pounds
giving birth to twins And itwas still early in the

(27:30):
development stage.
And I remember the doctor whileit was a Catholic hospital So
he couldn't actually say theycouldn't do any abortion, but he
was like honey, you reallydon't need to do this.
And he was a very old, olderman but he so he's very blunt
And he was just like you don'tneed to go through all of this
just because I don't see itactually going to term.

(27:52):
Now.
Maybe it did or whatever.
But you had written aboutsomebody else that was like 48
years old And I think they hadlike seven kids already.
They'd gotten pregnant again.
The older you get to, youincrease your risk of
complications and non-homologousrecombination.
So is there ever an age whereyou're kind of like maybe we

(28:12):
shouldn't go through everything?

Go through with having an abortion or pregnancy
.

Pregnancy.

Oh yeah, my oldest patient was going to be
50 when she delivered, like ifshe had carried to term.
So you know, i guess that'spossible, but it's also real
risk.

Yeah, yeah, like it feels like when you're
playing with the odds and you'verolled the dice.

I mean, you know, there's those women that
are like getting implanted, likeyou know, in Italy, you know,
and they're like 60 becausethey're doing you know they're a
surrogate for somebody and allthat kind of stuff, but it
wouldn't be age so much as itmight be other complications,
like other comorbidities, thatmight you know?
you know that you would consider, in terms of counseling

(28:56):
somebody, whether to carry orwhether not to carry A lot of
the counseling too.
You know people have thisperception that at abortion
clinics nobody asks.
They're like yeah, you want anabortion?
fine sign here.
It doesn't really happen likethat.
Like you, they do have to gothrough you know options
counseling because and thenright across the street there's
always options, those fakeclinics.

(29:16):
Have you seen those?
So I used to have patients showup and they're like why did
they tell me down the streetthat I'm killing my baby?
Like so these centers are setup?
Oh, they're there, trust me,they're there, they're usually
like blocks away?
Yeah, they're, so they're calledoptions pregnancy counseling.
You'll see them, they'reeverywhere Pregnancy counseling
centers.
Like options is a big one.

(29:37):
They actually even make themlook like an abortion clinic, so
that.
But they're actually operatedby pro life groups and they look
just like a medical clinic, butthey're usually staffed by
volunteers.
They might have a medicalperson at them who is very pro
life, but yeah, they give theminformation about like this you
know all the medical bad thingsthat will happen to you if you

(29:57):
have an abortion.
And then they you know thepatients walk away scared.
So, yeah, those places arepretty popular.
Yeah, they're gonna tell youthey went to a place like that
and they're gonna say yeah butthe doctor told me I'm gonna get
breast cancer because I had anabortion.
There's an old study andactually that's on a billboard
near me You get breast.
abortion causes breast cancer.
Have you seen that one?

I haven't seen the billboard or anything I haven't
.
I don't remember learning aboutthat either, but lots, because
it really isn't a thing.
Yeah, I was gonna say I waslike I don't know, I find hard
to a real accredited medicalschool, but it is So thank God,
I didn't learn about that Therewas a study back in, like the

(30:40):
60s or 70s, and they did link.

There was a correlation, but it wasn't
causation, you know and it's sothey keep touting this thing.
You're gonna get breast cancer.
So you will hear stuff likewell, you know, from patients,
well, i read on the internetthat you know I'm never gonna
have children.
You don't have children If I dothis.
and you're like what do you say?
Like, stop reading the internet.

Yeah, i mean, everything on the internet is
true, right.

Oh, and now there's TikTok.
So I just saw that one at thisgirl, like, guess what?
You can't get pregnant ifyou're not in love.
I'm like, oh my God.

Yeah, And the crazy thing is like I'm the
oldest of like seven, So all ofmy sisters are much, much
younger And so they get like youcan get so much information
from TikTok, from like them, butthen also half of it could be
just faults and people justplaying around.

Oh yeah, you have no way of knowing.
So really, you have no way ofknowing If you're not a medical
person.
It's really, it's, it's scary.
So, of course, there's tons ofmisinformation out there, more
than ever, more than when Istarted practice.
And you're, you're right,you're stepping right into it,
you know.

And you can't even Google, like I've found it even
difficult.
I'm thinking about somethingthat I've already learned, and
so I'm like, oh, what is thatmolecular mechanism of action of
something that I type intoGoogle and Google's like you may
have testicular cancer.
And I'm like, oh my God.

That's not really what I was looking for.

You're like I okay , and then you're like, oh, i
completely see how people getmixed up And it's just super
confusing.
You know, i'm like just lookingfor one thing and it's like you
may have factor five, and youknow.

I know I mean you thought that anyway go see
your doctor, yeah, i know Likewell, in medical school, you
know, or nursing school oh myGod, maybe I have that.
But, like, if you're alayperson and you're relying on
this information and then it'sreally hard as the provider
right, like people are tellingyou this and they're convinced
and you're like, you know, it'sreally not a thing where you're
saying I don't know how to helpyou here.

So one question I want I did want to ask you is
were there any difficulties inwriting your book, switching
from the clinical side?
You've been a clinicianessentially since you were 20.
And then you decided to write abook.
Was it difficult to do theswitch And what were your
intentions when you startedwriting the book?

Okay, so, yeah, so it was.
I mean, this is a big changefor me.
I wasn't an author bybackground.
I always liked writing.
You know I enjoyed writing, butI didn't.
I didn't ever plan on writing abook.
I was just going to, you know,work and teach and whatever
until I retired.
So what happened a couple yearsago was the Me Too movement.
Remember Me Too.

Yeah.

And so I'm listening And I walked away from
abortion care specifically,like in the early 2000s, because
I was like people are not.
No one can talk rationally.
We can't.
We can't talk rationally, likeyou can't have a rational
discussion.
So I was like, all right,there's other things I can do.
This is one specialty and I amdone, i just can't.

(33:44):
So I walked away from it.
But then, like 15 years intoteaching and doing some other
things, and then this Me Toothing came up and I listened one
day I'm listening to thispolitician talking about how
they want to tax women'ssanitary products, because so
you should pay tax on yourtampons and all that stuff, and
there was this big debate aboutit.
It was like right during, likeMe Too.

(34:05):
And this politician's like well, they could.
I don't understand why, why weshouldn't, why this should be
tax free.
I mean you just hold the bloodand then when you go to the
bathroom, like if you pee it out, and I was like, okay, i'm done
, like I'm done.

I'm sure it was a male.

It was a male a married man And I'm like okay,
you're a married man with, like,children.
How do you not know the basicshere And how are you making
decisions about this?
So I was like, all right, i'mwriting, that's it, i'm gonna.
I just have to.
I have to talk about this.
Nurses have to write.

(34:44):
Physicians are, i think, betterat writing.
Like I love Atul Gawande, blesshis heart, like he's amazing
And you don't hear much fromnurses in that aspect of it.
Like you said that really human, like down and dirty.
Like we're in it up to ourelbows every day, kind of thing.
And I was like this is it?
I'm done, i am writing thisbook.

(35:06):
I'm gonna write, let's see Whatwould interest people most to
get them informed, becausethey're clearly not informed.
And I was like, oh well, i didabortion for eight years.
That's a great topic.
It's about it's abortion, it'ssex, it's you know, shame.
It's like ooh, let me be on thelet me be on the wall, a fly on
the wall of the abortion clinic.

(35:26):
So I was like, all right, i canwrite about that.
And as I started writing like,my instinct was to write like a
good college you know term paperright, because that's what you
and I do.

We write like an APA format.
Instantly go into nerd mode.
Yeah, You're like okay.

Yeah, the first thing I did was a lit search,
you know.

Yeah, exactly.

Because that's what I do, and so I did do that,
and the good portion of it isthat and I have, like you know,
five pages of citations becauseI, you know, as a medical, you
know person with that background, i feel like I owe it to people
to give them valid and reliableresources to go to afterward,
or at least know that I did it,like you got to look up the

(36:06):
history of abortion.
When you get to that partyou'll be squirming, squirming.

Yeah.

You know, that whole egg and sperm thing,
that's new.
It's new.
That was never, ever whatanybody thought up until
recently.
Well, for the Catholic church,like about 125 years ago, and
for the Southern Baptist church,oh, the 80s abortion was fine.
The sperm and egg are not, werenot considered a soul.

(36:34):
It didn't have a soul or aninstallment until 40 days for
males, 40 days gestation formales, 80 days gestation for
females.
Why, We don't know.
But it came from, actually, itcame from St Augustine, like it.
It's got some really stronghistorical roots.
So I started researching it andthen I was like, oh, oh, okay,

(36:55):
well, i got to make thisentertaining as well.
So I and I started to talkabout my own stories, because
some of these stories are my own, like I talk about my own
miscarriage and I actually weavethat into the stories.
And then it was, it wasspontaneous abortion, not an
elective abortion.
Okay, But, there are alsomiscarriages and abortion.

Yeah, it's still listed as one medically.
But, it's funny how we takemoral sides.
Right To the different sides,but yeah, and the categories,
you would just list it, butnobody's judging in a medical
chart.
They just like okay, we justneed to see.

Well, they do split it out too, and you know
that's the other thing women askall the time.
One of the most commonquestions I get is do I have to
tell my doctor it was anabortion, elective abortion?
all the time Do I, when I'msent into the ER?
if I have to send them, they'relike do I have to tell them I'm
like, well, you know, youshould, you should feel
comfortable and you should feelsafe to do it.

(37:51):
You know and listen.

That's more of it.
Yeah, you should feelcomfortable because it doesn't.
It helps grow the history, butit doesn't make.
It shouldn't be a point ofcontention.

But it is.
Let me tell you, i'm like I'vehad so many patients say I, my
doctor, lectures me all the timeabout being pro-life.
My excuse, my primary caredoctor is very pro-life And she
found out I did the book.
Oh my God, we went into it.
My blood pressure was so crazyAnd I was like, okay, this is
not therapeutic for me.
I'm here as the patient, youhave to stop.
And she's like all right, allright, all right, all right.

You know She bless you out.
then checks your blood pressureand it's like why is it high?

She's like you're not increasing my blood
pressure Med.
I will check it out at homeafter this, because I'll be fine
So yeah, yeah, So it's like.
so what did you ask me?
You wanted to know.

Well, okay.
So I wanted to know what wereyou you've kind of already gone
on to it about what yourintentions were when you were
writing the book, Oh yeah, yeah,And I actually thought that you
did a really good job.
I've only read a little bit ofit, but, like you gave very like
factual information And thenwhen you were painting the
pictures of all the people, youwere definitely doing it in a

(39:02):
very literal, literary way.
That's why I was almost curiousDid you have like a what do
they call them?
Like shadow writers or somebodythat goes?

over.
Thank you, i'm so honored.
No, i did not.

I read that myself , i'm kind of needed one for
that kind of painting.

Yeah, No you're right, thank you, i'm so.
I feel so honored because, no,i wrote them.
I wrote them from my memories,and I wrote because I'm a writer
too, you know like later on inlife, you have time to discover
things in yourself that youdidn't really know you had.
I thought I was good atturnpapers but turns out I'm
actually a really good writer.
I started doing a lot ofjournaling as well, like before

(39:38):
that, to try to like put thingsin place, so no.
And when I sent them to youknow, my former colleagues at
the abortion center, like howdid you remember?
Oh, my God, you remember thatperson, you remember that person
.
And I did take the stories andI condensed them and move them
around a little to change up,because this is all real stuff,

(39:58):
like everything I'm telling you.
I may have like taken twopatient stories and like kind of
condensed or three, or they'rejust so super common, like I
would see the same things.
Like I had a reviewer say oh,this was really hard to read
because I know somebody who wentthrough.
I've known so many people havegone through these things.
So I actually took compositesand I became like a literary

(40:21):
person.
It was hard to write like aliterary person but I wanted it
to be literary, i wanted it tobe fun.
And then in the middle of thebook I just went all total fix.
Like it looks like fiction,fiction writing.
And I will say technically itis because I took composites and
I took gems from my own memory.
But no, i wrote it all.

(40:43):
Thank you Oh like non-fiction.
Yeah, like I took.
You know, i think that's whatfiction writers do anyway is
like you take nuggets of realitythat stick with you and then
you turn them into.

Oh, yeah.
So then you were more Yeah, Iactually.
No, I really like that becausefor one I could tell it kind of
made it fun, But then it also,yeah, those are the times when
you really like remembering thatperson, as they are.

And that.

I think is one of the key parts to this whole
issue is that you have to almostsee each person individually
and we're trying to make rulesfor one side or the other, but
this one's a very in it feelsvery individual in the topic,
just in general.
So you have to look at it caseby case.

Right, you see one page, so you can't really
draw your line ever No no, andthat's why I wrote those
fictionalized accounts too,cause, like you have to see the
person in their entirety, likeyou have to see that lady go
home after abortion or see herwhat's leading up to it, we
don't get to see that, you and I, we don't have time.
So if you can write a book andsort of get that, you know the

(41:48):
girl's down at the shore and youknow the one is pregnant and
swears she doesn't, she was dateraped you know, like we don't
see that, we don't have time forthat.
And yet you, you and I know, ashuman beings, like we're going
through life with people we loveor friends that we have, like
we have to, we have to be ableto get to that.
And I do think that the wholeconversation on a larger level,

(42:10):
like all of politics, medicine,that's how we're going to get
where we have to go.
We're in a quagmire right now.
We have our pros, pro-lifers,we have our pro-choicers, we
have people fighting, fighting,fighting.
And the only way we're going toget through this is one person
at a time, one heart at a time.
Yeah, I mean, that's what I youknow, opening your heart just

(42:32):
for, like, just to see what'shappening to that person.

Mm-hmm, everybody's looking to convert
the other side.

Right, right.

In the argument and nobody is actually trying to
listen.
Like I have these bigot, thebiggest breakthroughs of my life
or times where I thoughtsomething, but then I just let
the other person speak.
And then I was like sometimesyou still draw your line.
You're like you give like alittle pushback but then you
walk away and you're like youknow, i didn't ever think about
it like that.
I probably should pull out myline in the sand.

So my friend is a pediatrician and he teaches
med students and we he was overthe other day and he you just
made me so happy I'm going totell him that you said that
Because he said his biggestchallenge in teaching his
medical students and residentsis just that.
It's like pull up your stake outof the sand.
You were trained from a veryyoung age and you your whole

(43:23):
life has been spent finding theright answer.
And there isn't a right answersometimes Like.
So just open up and like tellthe universe, tell me something
new, tell me something that Ididn't memorize.
So yay, thank you.
Yeah.

And the and you're born with these by you.
Your brain is hardwired forbiases, and so if you just but I
found that if you go into likea clinical setting and you're
like so set on, like I askedthese questions, I get these
answers This is we're going to,we're going to knock this out as
quickly as possible.

Yeah.

I found that because usually it's for time
you know you get in that zoneand you're like let's go, let's
go.
But I found that if you go inthere and you're like taking
everything in especiallycritical situations, if you take
a second to pick up everythingand realize the questions that
they are answering and trying toget to you, you actually move
way quicker and you actually getto the bottom of it.

(44:18):
Yeah, i mean, it's really likeyou're like why is my brain
actually telling me the rightanswer, but it doesn't follow
any of the protocol.

I love it, i love it, oh, i love it.
I'm so happy.
So wait, what specialty do youwant to go into?

Going to be emergency medicine.

Oh good, Well then that's the perfect place
for that, because, like youdon't get a diet, They're not
coming in with the whole.
You know all their tests doneand their diagnoses and
everything.
It's so.

It's just got to be you listening And that's one
of the things that I love aboutit is you're the first person to
collect the history, so youreally have to be.
You got to take the wide-eyedapproach.
You can't just narrow in Right,right, because there's a lot of
times where the thing thatsomebody's talking about isn't
really the issue at hand.

Yeah, i know They get off track.
but then you're thinking about,like why are they going on
about this, like what's behindthat?

Exactly.
No, that's happened And I'velearned that from just Luckily,
my mom's an ER doctor, so Iactually got to see it in person
a lot way earlier where, likesomebody's saying something and
you're like, hey, maybe weshould pay attention to that,
and then she's like no, no, no,right, like There's something
else off, and You'll weed it.

You'll learn to weed out, because sometimes it
isn't like the thing you'regetting to.
But I will tell you this too,because I know I don't want to
forget to say this.
So, being on call, i'm gettingcalls from ER physicians and
providers because they don'tknow how to take care of
abortion patients.
They are calling me on thehotline.
So I just want to be reallyclear that, like about half of

(45:51):
all medical schools, they're notteaching how to take care of
these people, and one in everyfour women will have had an
abortion by age 45.

So I just What was that statistic again, sorry,
one in four women will have hadan abortion by Oh, that's better
.

15 years ago it was one in every three women.
Oh, my goodness Who had anabortion by age 45.
It is the most common surgicalprocedure for women in this
country And our ERs are freakingout.
They don't know how to takecare of these patients.
So I'm just saying learn it.
I don't mind physicians or PAsor MPs calling me at 4 am

(46:33):
because they don't know what todo when the patient presents,
because I just sent them there.
But I think being able to havethe confidence to be able to
care for these people is superimportant and we're not teaching
it.
And in some of these states Iwas just looking it up before I
got on because I wanted to beclear about it The medical
schools, their hands are tiedabout teaching the content.
Did you get any content onabortion?

I mean, that's what I was trying to think,
especially in the schooling part, that's more a.

A didactic classroom.

Yeah, technical, There might be mentions about
abortion, but because it's notdirectly in the pathway of any
kind of thing, I could see whyit would be left out of the
literature, like of theeducation part.
But then I will say if you're amedical student going through
your rotations and you'rethinking about emergency

(47:24):
medicine, pay attention to whenyou are in OBGYN.
I remember that was whensomething I told them.
I was like hey, i'm thinkingabout going in emergency
medicine.
They were like well, we'regonna teach you everything
because we keep getting calledfor this, so you're now coming
for everything.

We left because the ER.
I was just talking with an OBnurse the other day and, like
women in labor, i think theearly pregnancy stuff maybe the
ERs are doing okay, but and it'sbeen since I was like a new
nurse ERs don't wanna deliverbabies, man, they will get them
through that ER so fast.
Oh no, we're not doing that.

And I could see where you're like.
hey, I'm probably not the bestperson to be doing this, But In
the late public.

They're shocked .
They're like what do you meanreally?
I'm like oh yeah, really.

That's a high liability.

It's high liability too.

Yeah, and that's why you wanna get it out.
Definitely, though, the key isto still understand all of that
aspect, because that's a verycommon, whether it's for bodies
or birth like.
You're gonna have to deal withthat.
At least once, my mom'sdelivered babies in cars and
Yeah, oh, gosh yeah.
Everywhere, so you'd besurprised how many OB or GYN

(48:34):
problems come in, and especiallyas a male.
you gotta really Oh yeah.
You better be comfortable atleast doing some of that, not
being like ah, have your freakout moment.

Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, they're like calling meAnd the patients sometimes know
I had somebody in Mississippi acouple months ago and she's like
I'm not going there, And I waslike, well, I don't know,
There's nowhere else for you togo.
You need an ultrasound.
I don't know what to tell you,but you need an ultrasound and
you need it now.
And then they called me andthey were like really the staff

(49:04):
called and I was like, don't beafraid.
Like you know what, you know.
You do know what a uterus lookslike.
You do know when there's astripe, don't freak out.
But like the whole thing aboutabortion and You know it's
making providers crazy.

Yeah, i mean it's definitely nerve wracking,
especially if you don't see itvery often or whatever.
And it comes in and it's alittle tricky and you watch
something on the news earlierabout it.
And now you're like ah, i wascurious because we had talked
about it a little bit, about howpeople are drawing their lines
and saying, like, how do youthink we can like, depoliticize

(49:39):
abortion and come to like, or atleast just come to a
understanding that somewhere Iguess it would have to be in the
middle, because if you stick toone side or the other, it never
is the right way.

Right.
So again, i think it comes downto telling stories.
Like, even in the clinicalworld, we love stories.
Stories are a very powerful wayto teach and to open minds.
So we got to tell the storiesAnd you know that whole idea of
walking a mile in somebody'sshoes, just both sides, both

(50:14):
sides, that's the thing.
So I taught and I tried to dothat, and not just for women but
for men.
I have a few stories where theman is actually the main
character in the abortion story,because there's a lot going on
there And I think if we, youknow, get too crazy about
women's rights women's rightsand these are men that are also
suffering we're not healing Andeverybody's just kind of

(50:35):
retreating further and furtherinto their camps.
So I do, and I do spend sometime talking about my favorite
protester, pro-life protester,and where his brain is, i think,
because I think we all have toown it, and inside ourselves
There's conflict, there's pain,there's shame and secrecy, and

(50:56):
so I think that the women'sgroups are trying to do a really
good job of educating peopleand telling their stories, and
some people you have tounderstand and respect that the
stories are too painful.
They are too painful for themto hear.
I often call it like we're inthe time of the fetus, now, and
for people to think about thethought even my GP, the thought

(51:18):
of, like you know, notdestroying a potential life.
It's so painful for them Theycan't hear it.
Right now They can't, but like,where do we?
I think most people are willingto say, well, i can't bear
thinking about it and it'sreally upsetting to me.
But I also have to.
I do think I understand alittle bit about the women that

(51:38):
are undergoing abortion,choosing abortion, and how it's
not easy for them either.
It's not easy for any of us,and that's the bottom line.
None of this is easy for any ofus.
And to say that it is that'swhere we're stuck.

Yeah And that, and when somebody's yelling at you
saying that it's easy for you,you're like you and you're
having, i would imagine, like ifI was a female that is now I'm
about to do a bunch of what ifsor whatever, but if I was a
female that was pregnant anddecided that I was going to get
an abortion, there would be somuch mental weight even in just
that decision, like even if Iknew it was for the right

(52:12):
motives.
Like sometimes you do thingsfor the right reasons but you
feel terrible about it duringthe process Or after, or after
Yeah, and so it's like going todo that.
That's already probably thatperson's worst day, and the last
thing I want to be is part oftheir worst day by being the one
that yells at them.
You know, like that's the thingthat they also remember on

(52:35):
their worst day is right, thatwas already a bad day, and now
it's the worst day ever.

And there's a lot of that.
You'll be sorry later.
You'll be sorry later, okay.
So the thing with that is 80%of women who are surveyed and
this we have tons of date onthis Their number one feeling
afterward is relief.
There's also the turn away studywhich was done out of UCSF.
That is phenomenal.
Obviously they had to have,they had to be perfect.

(53:02):
It had to be a perfect study.
They followed women for fiveyears who were.
They followed women at anabortion clinic.
They went to the clinic andthey recruited patients.
Percentage of them were turnedaway for a variety of reasons
The other person and had thebaby and the others who had the
abortion.
They compared the two cohortsand the data is I won't go into
it here, but it's overwhelminglyclear that the women who were

(53:26):
able to terminate knew what theyneeded for their lives.
Their lives, their long termoutcomes are way better Lower
rates of depression, lower ratesof I mean their socioeconomic
status is are way better andthat kind of thing.
Not to say the women thatcarried the term don't love
their babies, they love theirchildren, make no mistake,
because of course you would loveyour child, right.
So it's a.

(53:46):
It's a beautifully done study.
That actually the pro lifecommunity hasn't really been
able to attack, so they justdon't talk about it.
But the data is really strongand it's all around your
perception.
If you the patients that doworse, to be honest with you are
people who come in They're verydevout pro life people who have

(54:07):
an abortion Clearly you couldsee why that person is going to
struggle later.
Right, because they they weresuper judgmental.
Now they went through it andthey go back to church every
week and they're told that it'sbaby killing.
So of course you're going tohave some psychosocial issues
afterward.
If it's culturally framed thatyou did a terrible thing, but if
it's culturally framed that itwasn't a terrible thing, it was

(54:29):
a terrible decision that you hadto make, it's going to be very
different for you.

And I can even understand that, that study,
because sometimes, leading up toa decision, we always feel that
anxiety or whatever, especiallywhen it can go both ways or
it's really your, it's alldeciding on whatever you decide
to do.
But once you make the decision,once you go left or you go
right or whatever you're likehallelujah, thank God.

Right Either way, exactly, at least I mean
either one would have worked.

But you know, and so yeah, were there any times
where there was somebody like agrandmother bringing a daughter
in or whatever, and she'swanting some like putting
pressure on the other person toget an abortion?

Absolutely, and that is one of my other
favorite chapters that you'rejust yeah, I got to read this
whole book.
I got to finish the book becauselike it's crazy.
Yes, yes, and you know.
So, yeah, i don't even want togo into because I just want you
to read it.
But yeah, there's some reallycompelling stories of that And
let me just tell you, like, ifthe patient, you know, if you're
in a state where the they'reemancipated minors So I will

(55:37):
just say that an emancipatedminor, if they want to have that
baby and their mom doesn't wantthem to have the baby too bad,
mom, you're a grandma now andyou will probably be raising
this 13 year old child And youknow the rebellious teenager and
the whole thing.
Yeah, oh yeah, it's lively,it's a lively place.

Socially.
Yeah, how did?
how did you cope with like allthat stress?
I mean not only like protestersand everything, but just the
people?
I'm sure there were tears shedon a regular basis or there was
just on people's situations LikeI find myself leaving like the
emergency room and stuff likethat, and I'm like God, my life
is not as bad as I thought.

(56:18):
You know, like you're like Iwant to complain but I can't.

You know again, like it's pretty much to me, it
was so similar to all aspectsof you know, being a nurse and
taking care of patients same asbeing a physician.
You know what are the thingsthat you do.
Like you said, you walk outyou're like, oh man, i'm going
back to my normal life.
After seeing you don't evenhave a sense of what crazy is
anymore.

No, i was gonna say yeah, which I don't know if
I had any of that to begin with.

Right.
Like what is crazy?
I'm not, like your sense ofreality just gets so changed by
all the things that you see.
So it took me a long time, iwould say.
You know, the day to day stuffis that self care stuff that we
do, and I think your generationis better than any of us so far
in doing the things that youneed to do meditating,

(57:06):
journaling, releasing.
You know those things.
Often, of course, talking toyour colleagues, like you can
talk to your family but like, ifthey're not a medical person,
you really you want to yourcolleagues get you, they get
what you just told them And youknow you can go home and I would
go home and tell my husband who, like, works in
telecommunications, and hedoesn't get it, like he's

(57:28):
sympathetic but they don't getit.

Exactly Yeah.

Yeah, i think having and with this, in this
day and age of tele, you know,being able to talk on zoom and
stuff, being able to talk topeople, your peers, and talk it
through, because you know you'regoing to have days where you
know I mean you're, you feeljust trashed, you made a mistake
, you missed something or youknow the whole medical error

(57:52):
thing And again being able toforgive yourself for the things
that you're.
You're trying your best.
You know you did great witheight patients and two one went
like south, the other one died,like it does.
It's all part of what we do Andyou have to, you know, hang on
to the fact that you took careof eight patients really well.

Wow, that's a very enlightened way to actually
view it, which is that's exactlywhat you need to have.
You need to have your brain inthe right spot so that you can
handle everything.

So it's those little things that get you
through And knowing that youwere put in that situation for a
reason And if you fucked up, itis what it is And it was
probably part of a larger planfor a patient.
I'm going to just say that Ihave seen it.
It's like all right, well, theyneed to go and you're here to
help them and you didn't want to, and it's painful for you and

(58:43):
you need to work through that,but in the end, maybe it was
part of something that you'rejust there as a presence and
they're lucky that they had.
They're lucky they had you.

I hope everybody is listening to that, because
that was actually very great,because you can only do the best
that you can do, and that's allthat is needed in the world.
Everything will change afterthat, but yeah.

And if you learn from the things and the
pain that you've been through asa provider, you're going to
just get better and better andbetter.

Yeah, yeah, man, that's awesome.
What comes next?
You wrote a book.
You're currently doingtelehealth.

I don't know, i do not know I do a lot of
things, i actually sing rightnow for hospice patients.
So I'm part of a group where wego around and we sing for the
dying, so I've been activelyinvolved in that.
I may do more work in hospice.
I love end of life stuff.
I love it.
So we'll see.

Well, i'm excited to see and I'm definitely going
to have to finish the bookEverybody go check out the view
from the clinic one nursesjourney and abortion care.
I found it on audible plus butthen I didn't have a credit, so
I was like I'll wait.
And then I got a credityesterday and I was like I don't
have enough time to make itthrough this thing.

Patrice D'Amato (01:00:00):
I narrated it.
That's the other thing.
I narrated my own book.

Jordan Abney (01:00:03):
Okay, yeah, you've got a great voice for that too,
so that's perfect.

Yes, i knew I could narrate it and they said,
with memoirs it's always betterwhen the person who wrote it
narrated it.
So it took me 11 hours.
So please go get the audibleand listen you can do while
you're jogging, you can do it.

Yeah, if you can deal.
If you've been around for thislong you can definitely deal.
Go check it out.
I guess you can definitely findit on audible.
Is it at Barnes and Nobles andall the other?

It's at Barnes and Noble.
It's at Amazon The audible book.
I have a Kindle.
I did it all Like I did it.
This is my gift to humanity.
I self published this with myown money because I so believed
that I didn't want to wait for apublisher and beg somebody.
I knew it was good and I knewit was important.
So, yes, i used my own money.

(01:00:46):
I figured my 401K is crapanyway.
So this is my gift to the worldand it's a message of comfort,
it's a message of hope and it'stough stuff too.

So thank you so much.
Yeah, of course.
Yes, thank you for coming on.
It's been great.
Everybody go check out the book, the view from the clinic, one
nurses journey in abortion care.
Yes, patrice, has beenexcellent.
You've actually given a lot ofenlightening things, so I hope
anybody's name is.
I'm sure they enjoyed itthoroughly, so I want to thank
you.

Oh, i'm so glad , and best of luck to you and to
anybody else who's listeningYou guys are our future and I'm
just so excited about it.
You're just you're awesomepeople and you're going to do
good things.
Bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unveiling the Complexities of Abortion Care: A Nurse's Perspective ft. Patrice D'Amato

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Unveiling the Complexities of Abortion Care: A Nurse's Perspective ft. Patrice D'Amato

On Purpose with Jay Shetty