Venturing into the Unknown: A Whirlwind Tour of Adventure and Exploration with Clay Abney

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello everybody and welcome to the Off White Coat
podcast.
I'm your host, jordan Amney,and I'm sorry I may be feeling a
little bit under the weathertoday, so please excuse my voice
, but we didn't want to missthis opportunity to bring you an
episode with such aninteresting person.
So my uncle, first and foremost, is an adventurer and he's
spent most of his adult lifetraveling, experiencing new

(00:29):
cultures, and he has actuallybestowed a lot of that knowledge
on me and I would be remiss ifI didn't want to share him with
you.
So, everybody, this is my uncle, clay Abney.
Hey.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Jordan and I'm glad to be here.
Super exciting to share someadditional adventures and maybe
even kind of recap a few thatwe've had together.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, yeah, so we are actually setting up at his
house.
He's been kind enough.
I was in the middle of a secondlook in Myrtle Beach and so we
decided to just do a littlepop-up shop here with Clay, and
I guess one of the first thingsI wanted to talk to you about is
how you got into what you'redoing now.

(01:11):
So I know you began first youwere like pre-med, then you
became a biology teacher.
He taught like half the peoplethat did anything important in
my hometown.
It seems like he's taught some,a lot of people.
So how many years were you ateacher?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I was only a teacher for about four years but it was
like after college, so I wouldgo back a generation because I
was actually.
I took what would be calledmaybe called gap years now, but
back then they were just calledfinding yourself.
So I spent a couple years aftercollege just roaming around the
country and mountain biking andbackpacking and those kind of
activities and you know.
Then a couple years later Iwent in and taught for a couple

(01:52):
years.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
And so you were just backpacking and doing all the
things that you love there andthen you kind of traveled around
.
I know his wife's a news anchor, so he had to do a little bit
of traveling with that and then.
So what is your current role?

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I guess so well, I grew up like our family went
camping every weekend to thelake and just pulled a camper.
And then when I was in, like inthe early 80s, I started.
I was in Boy Scouts and gotinto and I was kind of in what
was a high adventure troop andso I got involved in backpacking
and, you know, got involved inrock climbing and then
whitewater paddling and stuff.

(02:26):
So then that just all escalated.
So then as I got older and gotinto college, you know the
opportunities just got greaterand greater and I was able to
just experience more and moreand that just kind of escalated
even further.
And you know, fast forward acouple of decades and you know
I've been snowboarding all overNorth America, I've been
backpacking all over the world,I've SEACI Act and stand up pad

(02:50):
awarded from Greenland toAntarctica and everywhere in
between, and so it's just been akind of a labor of love.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
So how many continents do you think you've
ever that you've been to?

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I have not been to only two.
I've not been to Asia and I gotaverted a couple of years ago I
had ended up with a stomach bug12 hours before, 12 hours
before I was supposed to leavein Vlad A Japan, to go
snowboarding on the North Islandand I, and then Australia.
So I've been to Antarctica andI've been to the other the other

(03:27):
five but just not haven't beento those two, but yet I was
supposed to.
In 2020 I was supposed to hitthose other two, but then, you
know, covid kind of derailed,you know kind of grounded my
proverbial plane.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, and I I've heard that even now Australia is
a little bit difficult to getinto with COVID restrictions,
everything.
I think they've loosened it upa little bit.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, they've lessened up the restrictions a
little bit, but that's one ofthe reasons that COVID was so
almost absent in New Zealand andAustralia is because of the
that they basically just shut itdown.
They just shut down no incomingor outgoing traffic coming into
the country.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
And so your your trips to New Zealand and
everything that was before COVID.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
It was.
It was supposed to be in 2020,so it was supposed to be.
I was supposed to hit 21countries in 2020.
I made it to Canada in Januaryand then the whole world
basically shut down and I got todo nothing Right.
So I got to do one out of the21, so I guess I can still count
myself.
Bless I still.
At least it got one before thethe whole world adventure

(04:31):
circuit kind of collapsed.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
And one of the reasons that I wanted to bring
him on is because he was part ofa very instrumental moment in
my life where I actuallyrealized that like I knew what I
needed to do to become aphysician and the person I want
to become, and that was actuallyduring a hiking trip to Machu
Picchu.
So my uncle for when Igraduated high school, he signed

(04:57):
us up to essentially hike theIncan Trail and really explore
all of Peru.
But during that time is where Ikind of found a lot of insight.
I got to see a differentculture and I got to see, you
know, just a world outside of myown and it really like opened
up my eyes and I was justcurious to know, like what was

(05:18):
your motivation when you werechoosing like that trip?
Was it just because you wantedto go on the trip to you and you
needed a companion?

Speaker 2 (05:25):
I mean, of course, I mean if there's always something
out there I want to do and youknow, if I can find other people
to go on and do thoseadventures with, it even makes
the adventure even moremonumental.
So, yeah, so when you guys werecoming up to, towards your
graduation, and it was just anopportunity and I had not been
to Peru and I wanted you guys tobe able to be, I want to take

(05:45):
you somewhere internationally.
But I didn't want it just to bea beach in the Caribbean where
we just hung out for a week.
So instead I planned you knowwhat I was almost a month long
trip to Peru where we started inLima and then did Cusco and
then the Inca Trail to MachuPicchu and stayed with the host
family and stayed with the hostfamily on Lake Titicaca and then
we came back through throughArquipa and came back through

(06:08):
Nazca and did some sandboardingand some dune buggy riding
through the dunes and weactually got in a wreck on the
dune buggies.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
That guy just hit us out of nowhere before we started
.
Yeah, that trip was.
I mean, it was monumental forme because it kind of
established a love for traveland just I don't know.
It made me calm down as aperson and really understand
other people and which I thinkactually helped me in my medical

(06:37):
career.
Like Peru is a very interestingplace and so when we went I
really had no idea when I waswhen I went, but now that I've
been there I've seen so muchlike there's so much history and
things that came from there inthe ancient Incans and even like
we walked through Sexy Woman,which we just thought was like
the greatest name at the time,you know 18 year olds and 20

(07:00):
year olds.
But then I came to realize toothat they think and now you know
historians and everything itjust was amazing how they set up
those blocks to be perfectlyset.
It honestly seemed too good tobe true and that the history
like we don't really knoweverything about the history,

(07:21):
because they were saying theyjust dripped water on the rocks
and it made it perfect and theseare huge stones and so I don't
know, you've probably never doveinto the history of it or Machu
Picchu, but they start to thinkthat you know that there might
have been other civilizationseven before the Incans, and the
Incans were just living in thoseBuilt upon their civilization.

(07:42):
Yeah, they were even beforethen.
So it's actually really cooland every time I hear it it just
immediately sticks in my brainbecause we've been there and so
it was a really cool chance tosee the world really meet new
people and so, honestly, it wasa huge blessing.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
You know, I've had so many trips and people always
ask me what's my favorite tripI've ever been on, and you know
I always go back to that.
I'll break it down intocategories, and you know, one of
my favorite trips was with youand your brothers, because I was
able to experience all thesedecades of experience I had, but
then to be able to share themwith you guys and you know, and
be able to, you know, tobasically outfit you guys from

(08:21):
underwear to outerwear, tosleeping bags, backpacks, and be
able to share that adventurewith you guys and you know, I
know that there were many timesthat we would get to camp each
day and your twin brothers wouldgo take a nap, you know.
Then you and I would out of the16 people, I think, in our
hiking group, not counting ourporters and our guides and our
cook you and I, and maybe oneother person, would just go, go

(08:44):
kind of hiking around the area,and then you and I, pretty much
every afternoon, would go, likeyou know, go off, and we would
watch the sunset, you know, andthen be able to see the Milky
Way.
So I think my favorite part,though, was was truly just being
able to experience that wholeadventure through you guys eyes
and being able to just be ableto share that moment I mean we
had three weeks together andlikelihood of that ever

(09:07):
happening again, of all four ofus being able to do that trip,
of something like that isprobably just not realistically
going to happen because, of youknow, life gets in the way.
So it was just, it was a momentin time I think that was just
forever captured by just aperiod of time that allowed us
just to just to spend time withone another.

(09:27):
And we traveled by bus and byplane and by boat across one of
the highest navigable leaps inthe world, you know, and sand
boards and dune buggies, and Imean we, we pretty much trains
just say trains have buses.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I mean we pretty much did the everything we can and
everything throughout southernPeru and it was during the World
Cup, so that you know we got tosee like the passion that they
were having for that and it wasso fantastic and I can see what
you mean now by like getting tosee it through our eyes, because
it really was just likeeye-opening the whole time.

(10:06):
Now my brothers they werehaving to take naps.
They probably should haveprepped a little bit, done some
some hills before they startedhiking the control.
But how do you prepare and planfor like a trip like that, like
if you're going either one weekor three weeks in a different
country, like do you have adifferent way of preparing?

Speaker 2 (10:26):
yeah, depends on the trip.
Like January of 24 I'm doingKilimanjaro and so that one will
involve in here living at sealevel, then going to the highest
, the highest freestandingmountain in the world at over
19,000 feet.
So you're going from I think welive here, I think our house
it's at about 34 feet above sealevel.
So I'm gonna go to 19,300 andchange above sea level.

(10:49):
You're talking that's a.
It's a huge height difference.
So, yeah, when I get ready to goon a trip like that, I will go,
grab my pack and throw someweight in it and you know.
Then I walk around theneighborhood and sometimes I'll
go to the one of the localstadiums, one of the schools,
and I'll just walk theirbleachers.
Sometimes I'll go to acondominium or a hotel that will
let me have access, always askand then I walk the stairwells

(11:12):
and just up and down and thenI'll add more weight as I go
along.
Even though I may not becarrying that much weight, it
still it's just a goodresistance training to get ready
for and it's just preparingyour legs and your mental status
.
Sometimes it's it's as muchmental sometimes as it is
physical, because sometimes whenyou want to quit, you know.
But your body will is capableof doing a lot more than it's

(11:35):
our mind.
Sometimes that intervenes, butyou know the body's machine were
made to keep being perpetualmotion.
Sometimes it's the mind, it'sthe war between the ears.
Sometimes you have to fightthat.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
That sometimes gets the better of you, yeah that's
the hardest part is fightingthat war between your ears and
when you've got like, whenyou're just used to a certain
thing every day and then you tryto mix it up.
It's really hard for a lot ofpeople, so it's really good to,
yeah, like just envisionyourself going.
When you're going on trips withhigh elevation and everything.

(12:06):
Do you take something thatmaybe, like, increases your red
blood cell count?
Or in Peru they had the ink andtea, or not the ink and tea,
they had the coca tea, the cocatea.
Yet that on the coca leaves aswell, and I mean it cured, I
mean, besides giving you alittle bit of a head rush and I
never, I don't think I everchewed on the coca leaves, but I
did drink the coca tea everymorning.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
When they bring it around to our tents and knock on
the, the tent say you know,they're trying to get us up, to
get us started, and I drink thecoca tea every morning.
And out of the four of us, onlyone of us really ex.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Out of the, your brothers and myself, the four of
us, only one of us experiencedand it was one of your twin
brothers experienced, you know,altitude sickness and that was
before we were even going intohigh elevation, like we went
into Cusco, and that was when ithit him, as opposed to like on
the trip Right, he didn't reallyhe was okay once, I think he
got a little bit past it and youknow our highest was a little

(13:00):
over 13.8, crossed over DeadWoman's Pass and he really
didn't experience it after that.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
But once you start descending, altitude sickness a
lot of times it's like seasickness.
As soon as you get your feetback on the dock you're okay.
But in the same way withaltitude sickness you come down
and the symptoms alleviatebecause it's just based on
oxygen deprivation.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I chewed the leaves and I don't recommend it.
It tasted like chewing aregular leaf that you find on
the ground.
It's not enjoyable.
So if you're going to like,let's say, kilimanjaro or
something like that, like, doyou take anything that would
emulate, like or simulate?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
I did take with us.
I got a prescription for diamoxor acetazolamide, which is an
altitude supposed to help withaltitude sickness, and I think
your brother took it.
I didn't take it as apreventative, I don't think any
of the other of us did until hestarted showing symptoms and
then I think I made him takewhatever the prescribed dosage
was and just to kind of help himjust to get over that hurdle.

(14:02):
A lot of times it's acclimating, it's just going slow.
That's why we spent three daysin Cusco.
To roll over 10,000 feet is toacclimate to the altitude.
So if we were at 10,000 feetand then we're only going up to
just below 14,000, you know wewere hopefully acclimated.
But you know, once you're goingfrom Lima at sea level, flying
into Cusco at 10,000 feet, Imean you're jumping, almost.

(14:22):
You're jumping over two milesabove sea level.
You know pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Is there any meds that you always have to take?
Like, I didn't even think aboutthe acetazolamide, but
anti-diarrheals I do take.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, usually in my if I'm traveling internationally
and I'm traveling on a backcountry trip or something I
usually take just like a broadrange antibiotic, take something
for an anti-diarrheal and, youknow, depending on the country
I'm going to, I'll takesomething that may be like an
anti-mallarial or maybe go aheadand get the typhoid vaccination

(14:57):
or cholera, depending on youknow what the water situation is
like and or any vaccinationsalways make sure I have my
tetanus shot is always up todate.
But I don't think we, I thinkcholera.
I can't remember if we tookcholera but I know we took a
typhoid vaccination and you knowI made sure my tetanus shot was
up to date.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think I remember getting like two or three yes,
everybody that's listening.
If you're going to anothercountry, you should really check
the travel guidelines.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
You can check like I think the US State Department
actually, or the Andrew or theCDC, has like recommendations
and especially because usuallythey'll keep it up to date as to
like if there's a watersituation or something in one of
the countries you know, they'llhave it on their website and
you can ask your doctor.
You know, maybe even if youhave a good relationship with
your pharmacist your localpharmacist ask them because they
can probably check for you asto what recommended vaccines are

(15:45):
and a lot of times you can getthose you know locally or you
can go to your doctor's officeand schedule that.
But make sure you do it aheadof time, because some require
one dose and then some requirelike a second dose, you know, a
couple of months later.
So make sure that you planahead accordingly.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, I remember there was something where it was
like two doses and I had tostore one in a fridge or
something like that.
Well, we talked about what youdo to plan and prepare, but what
makes a good travel companion?

Speaker 2 (16:13):
What makes a good travel, I think having people
with the same mindset you wantto, having everybody on the same
level of expectations.
You want to have somebody thatyou know.
If one person wants to, let'sjust say, climb Kilimanjaro, if
you want, somebody wants to dothe eight day trek and then
somebody wants to do the fiveday trek.
Well, you either got to settleon somewhere in between or

(16:38):
you've got to find anothertravel partner, because that can
make a huge difference in yoursuccess rate.
Some people can do it andeasily in five days.
We're going to plan on doinglike the seven or eight day.
I mean, I would be okay doingit in a shorter period of time,
but the people I'm going withwon't to have the highest chance
of success and they don't havemountaineering experience.

(16:59):
So I'm actually just going todowngrade my expectations to
some degree and just go withboth, and of course it gives me
an opportunity to justexperience more of the mountain
and the culture and just spendmore time, you know,
experiencing all of thedifferent ecosystems and bombs
that will go through, you know,and covering over 12,000 feet of

(17:20):
elevation, going from the baseall the way to the summit.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
That's going to be such an awesome trip.
I'm very, very jealous.
First off, like you said, thesepeople, the people that you're
traveling with don't have anybackpacking experience, right?
So is there some things thatyou have to prepare for on top
of just packing the right gear?
Oh, of course, when travelingwith newbies, because we were
newbies too, right?

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Well, we're going to spend a year, and one of those
people is my wife, and one ofthem is the meteorologist at her
TV station where she is theevening anchor, and then his
wife, and so you have to becareful what he says here.
Yeah, my wife is in our over 20years together, she's never
been camping.
So these are things that we'regoing to, you know, and so

(18:03):
camping is second nature to me.
So spending time in theoutdoors is, it's like looking,
you know, it's like the palm ofmy hand.
I know exactly what it's likeand what to expect.
And you know, sometimes you haveto get comfortable being
uncomfortable.
I mean, you know you don't wantto.
You know to the point whereyour fingers are freezing off
due to frostbite, but you wantto.
Sometimes you got to deal witha little bit of level of
discomfort at times.

(18:25):
You know whether it's you knowyour legs are burning just due
to lactic acid because you'veyou know you've climbed so much.
Or maybe a little bit of aheadache could also be a sign
that maybe I just need tohydrate a little bit more and
drink more water.
And it's knowing what yourbody's doing, but it's also
having that skill set, beingable to I think sometimes I
think they do a summit bid early, like a little after midnight

(18:49):
on the final day, and so it'salso being able to be able to
get dressed and put all that onand be able to hike in the dark
with a headlamp, and you knowthose are things that you can
practice, because we can, youknow, do it around our
neighborhood or just go, youknow backpacking, and then, you
know, walk around in the woodsat dark so that you get used to,
you know, walking with aheadlamp and being able to

(19:11):
navigate roots and rocks with aheadlamp versus, you know, just
the light of day.
So it's about just having thosedifferent preps and being
prepared, knowing how to youknow zip your jacket up and you
know knowing how to layer basedon your own, how to
thermoregulate, so based on youknow if you're hot or cold

(19:31):
natured, making sure that youdon't want to be so warm that
you're comfortable at the start,but knowing 100 yards up the
trail you're going to besweltering and then having to
stop and to change clothes.
And if you remember from Peru,every morning in camp it was
like in the, you know 20s or 30sand I'm standing there in
shorts and a short sleeve shirtand, you know, some wool arm

(19:52):
warmers, and you guys werestanding there a lot of times in
your, your travel pants andyour down jackets, with your
pack zone, and I'm like you know, guys, you're going to be,
you're going to be, you know,really hot in about 100 yards.
And so you were comfortablestanding there before we got
started, but then you got alittle warm, you know, at the
get go.
So it's it's all about justlearning.
But that was your first tripand so you guys really navigated

(20:14):
that really well and you know,you know, and I know that a year
later or so you went to Ecuadorand spent like a month.
So you know it's been, you wereable to take a lot of those,
you know skills and gear thatyou had taken, you know or
learned to use the year before.
So a lot of it's just becomingcomfortable with that and making

(20:34):
it second nature where it's not.
It's not something new to you.
So for this trip, yeah, we'll,we'll.
Actually we're going to do acar camping trip and make sure
everybody's okay, you knowcamping, and then we'll move up
to an overnight backpacking tripand then we'll do a like a
three night, four daybackpacking trip.
So because if you can't handlethat, you're not definitely not
going to be able to handle acamping trip on the world's

(20:55):
highest freestanding mountain inthe third world country.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yes, yeah, and honestly, it was such a blessing
having you as an uncle.
And then I go to Ecuador and Iwas like outfitting half the
other people with whether it wasa pack or whatever they needed.
It seemed like I had at leastthat.
And yeah, he's a big proponentalso of the zip away pants, like
the ones that zip out into theshorts.

(21:18):
That way he he doesn't have tostop what he's doing.
If he gets, if he gets a littlewarm, he can just break out.
When you go to places likeKilimanjaro and Nepal or any of
those like, how much do youfocus on understanding, like the
cultures of the places aroundyou and everything, before you
actually go and like thelanguage, because I assume

(21:40):
they're not going to speakEnglish correct?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Well, the language barrier is always one that
you're never going to be able toclose the gap on all of it.
I mean, a lot of times, likefor even Kilimanjaro and Peru to
do the Inca Trail requiredhaving a guide, because they
they control the number ofpeople that are on the Inca
Trail every day and they controlthe number of people that go up
and down Kilimanjaro just forthat's for safety's sake as well

(22:04):
, as you know, making sure thatpeople are doing things you know
right, and then that way theycan control the narrative.
And it's smart on both of thosecountries.
And they do the same thing inNepal at the, with the Everspace
Camp track and stuff.
So you have a guide and a lotof those guides speak English.
English is a is aninternational language, so a lot

(22:24):
of times they're catering totourists and so they'll have
somebody that can speak English.
And or there are Tanzanianguide services, but they're also
US based ones that will thenhire Kenyan I mean Tanzanian
porters that will actually carrya lot of the gear up so that
the guest can actually focus onthe actual experience.

(22:47):
But, as you remember, I made youguys carry packs on the Inca
Trail.
Oh yeah, and there were onlyfour or five, six of us that
carried packs out of 16.
The other 10 were carrying likelittle day packs.
But you know, your firstbackpacking trip you know
anywhere in the world wasactually in the Andes.
So I wanted you guys to.
I didn't want you guys just tothink that backpacking involved

(23:07):
just carrying a day pack whichis some snacks and water and a
camera.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh yeah, and it actually prepared me very well
for Ecuador, because I had towalk around Ecuador with either
a pack or I was carrying aroundthis spectrometer 3,000.
I could walk around therewithout even budging, just
because I was so used to justall the trekking that we had
done.
Are you all going to carry allof your gear when you go to
Kilimanjaro?

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I don't think, and I think Kilimanjaro, I think that
they to ensure the highest rateof success for guests.
I think that you only carry likemaybe a small day pack and you
know, like your personal, youknow stuff, and then a porter
will carry a lot of your othergear which you'd have to put
into another bag and then itwould be waiting at your tent

(23:52):
every day.
So, because you'll start inalmost like in a tropical type
environment, it could be like 80degrees, but then when you get
to the summit it could be any,it could be as low as negative
20.
So you're going almost 100degree temperature gradient.
So you have to the close, youpack, you know like we may be
starting out in the zip offpants, the convertible pants,
and then you know at the top youmay be in a down jacket and you

(24:16):
know in gloves and mitts andyou know more polar type gear.
So you got to go from oneextreme to another and so, yeah,
I think that with that trip itwill be, we'll be carrying a
small amount, but it will mostlyjust be stuff that we want as
convenience, like snacks andwater and personal items.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, because I mean I would think that, especially
since I mean Kilimanjaro, Iguess, is technically a
dangerous climb like it's,people definitely die.
I think 30,000 people attemptto climb Kilimanjaro each year
and there's three to 10 deathsevery year.
So that's not a high statisticby any mean, but I can see where
they would want to kind of keepit, I'm sure, if they let

(24:56):
everybody carry up their ownstuff and just go up free willy
nilly and be even more Right.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
And there are some of the guides and porters on
Kilimanjaro that have been tothe summit hundreds of times.
So I mean, why not at you know,why not leverage their
experience to get you know?
And why not?
I mean, it's one of the sevenpeaks, it's one of the highest,
it is the highest peak on Africa, but it's also one of the seven
summits which is the highestpeak on every continent.

(25:21):
So it's, you know, it's, it's,it's something that is sought
after.
People love to say they'veclimbed Kilimanjaro or you know
they.
If you've climbed Kilimanjaro,then what's next?
I mean, they're always thosepeople that want to push the
envelope and you know, butKilimanjaro is one of those
seven summits.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
So with Kilimanjaro.
Would a porter be considered?
A porter is somebody thatcarries your like a bag.
Essentially, would they beconsidered Sherpas.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
No, sherpas is kind of, is an actual group of people
that actually live in the, theregion around Nepal.
So it's an actual, it's a, it'sa group of people Like I know.
I sometimes say I'm a Sherpawith you know, carrying around
all my wife stuff, but but Icould be, you know, a porter or
a Belman or whatever.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, exactly, so it just sounds.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
It just sounds more exciting to say I'm a Sherpa,
but a Sherpa is an actual groupof people in that region and the
Himalayas.
But a porter would just besomebody that actually carries
and the there's a there's limitsto what they can carry.
As far as the weight, I thinkthat there was a restriction, so
I think I forgot what it is,but it's like it's like less

(26:32):
than 50 pounds, which is it'sgood, and that means that
they're carrying everything.
I think I read one that therewas a group of X number of
guests and then there was likethree times that for the support
staff, for, you know, a trip.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
They must have been pushing it in Peru, because
those guys were carrying bagsthat were probably double their
whole entire body mass and theywere running down.
There was one time I was justtiptoeing down thing down like a
slope and somebody with a waybigger bag than I had just ran
right past me Wearing sandals.
Yeah, wearing sandals.

(27:13):
It's crazy how much.
But I mean they have all theexperience and everything when
you're, when you're doing likethese trips and everything gets
the gear over the years haschanged drastically.
How much has it changed overthe years for you?
Because you said you started, Iguess I get 16 or so when you

(27:34):
really started.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
I started backpacking when I was 12 and that was, you
know, we didn't know what.
We didn't know we were, youknow, cotton underwear, cotton
shorts, cotton t-shirts.
We wore cotton socks.
Now I might wear a buff, butyou know, we just wear a good
old cotton bandana.
But you know, as I've grown and, you know, have gotten more

(27:56):
involved in the outdoor industryand the gear realm, I've also
expanded my gear closet and youknow, as you know, when I
outfitted you guys and that wasalmost a decade ago, it's kind
of hard to believe next yearit'll be 10 years since we did
that trip.
You know, there's the like rain.
If we had a rain gear when Iwas 12 years old, it was a

(28:18):
poncho that you threw over yourbackpack and you had all your,
you know, your sleeping bag andall your clothes thrown in
either ziplock bags or a garbagebag inside of your pack and
then you had a poncho over allof that and if it started
raining, you know, you just putthe poncho on and kept on going.
And you know, now there's, youknow, high-tech jackets like
Gore-Tex and the event, you know, and it allows you to, you know

(28:42):
, they allow it to breathe andthey keep the water out, but
they also allow the sweat andthe heat to escape, you know, so
that it doesn't accumulateinside of you and you know
you're starting just to, youknow, to just to sweat, just to
accumulate, and then, becausethen it can do the reverse, you
know, if you sweat too much thenyou can get hypothermic even on
a hot day, because you know youwould start to overheat and

(29:03):
then you start to chill off andyou get the reverse effect.
So, yeah, gears, gears changedrastically and I won't say that
it's I mean because there'sstill some great products like
wool has become, like has comeback really strong in recent
years, not the, not you know,the wool that I grew it with,
but like merino wool, which isit?
Almost you can't even tellsometimes the difference between

(29:25):
wool and a synthetic, becauseit's so like the merino wool is
just so soft down, stillprevalent, you know, and I use
all of those and I use evensynthetic.
Now, fact, now I don't eventhink only only wear cotton when
it's, like you know, for casualwear, just like around town, or
even when I'm traveling, likejust going from point A to point

(29:45):
B on a plane, I still mostlywear synthetic, which is crazy
to think about because it usedto be such a prevalent, I guess,
way to make material, and sothat is, and everybody wore
cotton, and then now we'reslowly moving away.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
When you're, when you're doing so, going back to
the gear and everything, thedrastic change in it is it
mainly just clothes?
And do you think that thechanges that have been occurring
are because companies arestarting to realize that there's
a lot of money in adventure,like making the best adventure

(30:24):
products, or just technology hasimproved to the point that
they're able to make thesynthetics?
Yeah, I think that it's.
I think it's both.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
I mean, you have a lot of companies out there that
that started with the advent ofpeople wanting to get involved
in these activities.
You know whether it was whenHillary sorry, when Hillary uh
summited Everest in the early50s, you know, and then it kind
of brought that onto the worldstage.
And then you know otheradventurers have accomplished

(30:54):
reaching the North and the SouthPole, and then you know people
are just wanting to push theenvelope.
You know, I think thatcompanies realize that they're
hey, you know we need to come upwith, you know, better gear and
I even even just in recentyears, the even backpacks and
stuff are even becoming.
There's even an ultra lightmovement where, you know, they
make even gear, even super light, and people are, instead of

(31:16):
carrying a third of your bodyweight on a backpack, you know,
now they're trying to get awaywith, trying to get it down as
little as 10, 15 pounds for abackpacking trip.
You know I still like a I'm oldschool I like a few luxuries and
I don't want to skimp too much.
And, you know, just make it anecessarily a suffer fest and I

(31:36):
want to have a few of the things.
So if I want to necessarily, Ilike to like to have my rain
jacket.
So if it does become like amonsoon, you know, and it's just
a gully washer, I just I wantto be able to put on my, my nice
, expensive Gore-Tex jacket andbe able to, you know, be able to
stay comfortable, exactly, orget in my nice tent and get in,
you know, a nice sleeping bagand you know, but you're not

(31:57):
having to be wet, exactly.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
I mean, even in the time that I've been around, it
has changed drastically.
Like everything is becominglighter, which is for one thing,
but just more accessible, likeeverything has, which I'm a big
fan of.
I want my like a pack to have abunch of different pockets and
things that I can readily access, and it's not just one big
burlap sack that you could justpull off.

(32:21):
So that's one thing.
What is an essential gear thatyou'd like to carry?
So in Peru, I remember so hewas.
He was a gear editor for acouple of magazines Correct,
right, yeah and so I remember hewas testing out one piece of
gear in Peru where he was.

(32:41):
He had solar panels on the backof his pack and he would flip
it over his back and it wouldactually charge the tour guide's
phone, which he really loved.
But you look kind of like youwere trying to attract some rays
or something.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Well, I mean, yeah, we had the.
It was like a, like a foldingsolar panel, that kind of.
I just strapped to the top ofthe pack and then it just
unfolded and rolled down theback.
But I mean, why not?
We had such high elevation, we,you know, had you know no tree
cover, so we were exposed, so wehad a lot of sun.
I had a, the solar panelsplugged into an inverter and the

(33:17):
inverter stored the charge andwe're able to charge phones and
camera batteries and otherpeople's phones.
We had a satellite tracker thatallowed our family back home to
follow us, so they were able to.
We were able to keep thatcharged so we probably could
have carried battery packs thatwould have charged all that for
that entire period of time.
But if you're going for even alonger than a four day

(33:39):
backpacking trip, sometimes youhave to look at the long term
goal, like I'm going to do, likea two week trip later this
summer and it'll be a firstdescent on standup paddle boards
down a river up in northernYukon territory Just south of
the Arctic Circle, and so we'llhave to carry the battery packs
would never last that long.
So for us to keep charging youknow, our camera I mean our

(34:03):
camera batteries and and dronebatteries and stuff like that.
So we'll have to use solar tocapture the you know, the sun's
energy and to be able to storeit and be able to keep those
things charged up so that we candocument this trip.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, I mean it was super neat tool.
It looks like one of thosethings that the women used in
like 1970s or whatever to suntan, like the little aluminum
things, but in reverse and itwas on his back, but it was
super neat.
So if you had to choose onepiece of gear that you thought
was like the most essential foryour trip, what would it be

(34:37):
besides?
Like your cotton underwear orwhatever.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
You know, I think good foot I always say good
footwear because you know yourfootwear, the foundations of
your, of your, our body'smachine, you know that's the,
the foundation of our entiremachine is our as our feet.
And if you don't have goodfootwear and you don't have good
socks, and aside from that, Iwould say, a good multi-tool,
whether it's a Swiss Army knifeor just another leather man or

(35:02):
something like that, is alwaysgreat to have, because you never
know when you're going to haveto.
You know, pop something open,are you going to have to cut
something open as well?
So it's always great to havethose.
And then a headlamp I reallylike to have a headlamp, I mean,
and back in when I firststarted backpacking, you know we
carried a flashlight.
But then, you know, but thenthat required the use of your

(35:24):
hand.
So you know you only had onehand free.
So the headlamp is just a greatway.
It gives you hands free.
Whether you're I keep one in mycar, just in case I would have
to stop and change the tire onthe side of the road or whatever
I have hands free.
You know, whether I'mbackpacking or even just around
the house, the power goes out.
I can put it on and go open upthe you know the electrical

(35:47):
panel and be able to flip thecircuit back on.
So it's been able to have that.
You know that flexibility.
So those three things you know,some type of a knife or a multi
tool, a headlamp and then goodfootwear.
The rest of it you can modifyand you don't have to go out and
buy thousands of dollars worthof gear just to get involved
with it.
I did it for over a decade onutilizing cotton apparel and,

(36:13):
you know, external frame, boyScout pack.
I still built the skill set youknow, and now I just appreciate
those days more because now Ihave, you know, I have, you know
, the top of the line gear and Istill test top of the line gear
for other outlets and forcompanies and so.
But now I'm not having tonecessarily pay for it, you know

(36:34):
, out of pocket, but I'mactually still, you know,
getting that gear and testing itand you know being able to
review it and then you know,giving my feedback.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Oh yeah, I mean it's super nice to have nice gear.
It's better to have free nicegear, that's true.
But I remember like just beingrelated to you and you bestowing
some headlamps on me and then Ithink I've kept like everyone.
So I remember, even in likecollege and growing up, like
people were like why do?
You have so many headlamps.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Like what?

Speaker 1 (37:03):
like some of them didn't even work, but I still
have them, like I'm gonna putthe batteries in them soon, you
know.
And but they came in clutchwhenever something you know
power went out and all of asudden I was walking around with
a headlamp and they thought Iwas ridiculous in college but
showed them wrong, but yeah.
So like, have you ever had todeliver any care or anything to

(37:24):
anybody Because you werementioning footwear and I know
that you have injured yourselfon your trips have you ever had
to help anybody else that wasinjured on a?

Speaker 2 (37:34):
trip, nothing drastic or anything.
I mean people have been.
You know most of it's justblister care or you know people
getting, you know altitude,sickness and you know just, you
know making sure that they haveenough hydration and maybe
enough you know electrolytes andstuff like that.
But yeah, I've not actually hadto.
But, with that being said, I dokeep up with like wilderness

(37:57):
medicine and keep up with likewilderness first aid, and you
know I'm certified in a lot ofdifferent things because you
just never know.
You know what you're going toexperience.
If someone got struck bylightning, it's good to know.
You know how to respond in thatsituation.
Or if somebody did break up aleg or something like that, been
able to respond.

(38:17):
And I do carry a sat phone.
On these extreme back countryadventures like the one I'm
going on later this year, I willhave a sat phone and that will
be one of the reasons we'll havethe solar as well as to keep
that charged, because it willactually allow us to stay in
communication so that we couldactually call for assistance if
we needed it.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Okay, yeah, because that's the reason I asked is
because he has.
He has all of the wildernessmedicine books and he stays up
to date with all that.
So well, it's good to be atleast prepared.
Now you you've injured I don'tknow, you've broken your leg
once when you were out in themiddle of, in the back country
or wherever.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Where were you at?
I was in.
I was actually in Colorado,outside Estes Park, and I was
doing a summit on one ofColorado's 14ers Longs Peak and
we left early that morning andwe got to the summit.
Everything's going well.
And you leave early because youwant to get off the mountain
before afternoon, because that'susually when the storms roll in
.
So you always try to do asummit bit early and then so you

(39:17):
can get back off the mountainbefore the thunderstorms or the
lightning strikes and stuff,because usually a lot of those
higher peaks you're exposedbecause there's no, you know,
there's usually a lot, not a lot, of trees, because you're
alpine, so that means you'reabove the tree level.
And so, yeah, I was coming backdown there's only a couple of
hundred feet below the summitand stepped between two rocks,
and then the rock that wassupporting those two rocks

(39:38):
shifted and I heard a loud popin my leg and first I thought it
was just a sprain, but then Igot that overwhelming sense of
nausea and then, after thenausea went away, then I kind of
realized it was just felt alittle tender.
And then I stopped and took offmy boot and looked at it and I
could tell.
It was like getting a littlebit bruised and a little bit of
swelling and I thought, still, Istill thought it was a an ankle

(40:00):
sprain, because sometimes thosecan feel pretty painful as well
If you've ever rolled atplaying basketball or football,
you know and sometimes those canactually take a long time to
recover.
And so, yeah, but I got it, gotit wrapped up, put my boot back
on, laced it up and walkedabout seven and a half miles out
of Rocky Mountain National Parkback to the trailhead and still

(40:23):
thought it was a sprain.
And it wasn't until the nextday that I went to the emergency
room, or actually I got to gosee an orthopedic doctor there
and took some x-rays and showedme it was a like a two and a
half inch fracture running up myfibula, which was non-weight
bearing, and that's why I wasable to continue walking on it
and it was just, it was justuncomfortable and it really

(40:45):
wasn't super painful, it wasjust kind of like.
It was just like anuncomfortable feeling and so,
yeah, how?

Speaker 1 (40:51):
far did you walk once you realized you had hurt your
ankle to the point where youwere back at About seven and a
half miles?

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Oh nice, oh yeah, I walked because I literally no,
and I had a guide that day and Iwas supposed to travel with him
the next day to do a viaferrata, which is like a means,
the iron road in Italian and sowe went and we were supposed to
do that on a, so I broke it on aWednesday.
I was supposed to do that withhim on Thursday and I was

(41:20):
supposed to fly home on Fridayafter two weeks in Colorado.
And so I went and got it and Iwell, I called him that morning
after I went to the doctor andsaid, hey, I'm not going to be
able to do the via ferrata.
I did break my ankle.
So you know he was completelyunderstanding.
And you know, after I walkedseven and a half miles out of
Rocky Mountain National Park, hedidn't assume the same thing.

(41:40):
He didn't assume that it wasbroken either just because I was
able to walk on it, but becauseit was a non-weight bearing
fracture.
Then he didn't I mean, that'swhy I was able to walk that
period.
But then I came back to mycabin and took a nap and then I
iced it and took a shower andput back on my Choco sandals and
walked around downtown that'sjust part and had dinner and
well, let me say, I walkedaround, I hobbled around but

(42:03):
still walking around on it.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Being able to see all the bruised ankle with the
Choco Exactly with Choco, withmy sport sandals on Nice, is
there any place that you've beenor that you want to go that you
think is like kind of risky?
Like, is there any places thatyou think have been that are
almost like too risky to go to,or maybe besides the Ukraine?

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I don't know if there's any place that I
wouldn't go.
I mean, you know, if there were, if there were, like you know,
civil unrest or something, Imight would avoid it at the time
, you know.
But a lot of times those arejust, they happen in waves and
you know, and it may be inpassing.
So if there were, like a, anoutbreak of some type of
infectious disease, and I mightwould.

(42:52):
But one of the things I alwaysdo is I always get travel
insurance and not the travelinsurance that you buy from the
airline that just reimburses youif your airline gets postponed
or whatever else.
I get one with, like worldnomads or something similar,
which allows, let's just say,when I was on a cruise ship, an
expedition cruise ship,antarctica, let's just say that

(43:13):
I'd had something, as you know,just I don't say minor, but as
like a appendicitis or somethinglike that.
Well, that travel insurancewould have actually paid to have
me extracted from Antarctica,flown back to South America, or
fly usually will fly you back tothe closest place for medical
care, and in that case it wouldhave been flying back to Chile

(43:34):
or Argentina, and then they willactually get you back to your
home country.
So I always, you know, buy that, that travel insurance plan,
because, for example, like youknow, we'll be in a backcountry
trip in northern Yukon laterthis year.
Let's just say I did fall inbroken arm.
Well, it's hard to paddle ifyou've got a broken arm, well,

(43:56):
same thing.
I could call from the sat phoneand then they would.
That company will then makearrangements to get you flown
out, because this will be afloat plane in will paddle for
like 10 to 12, 14 days and thena float plane will pick us up on
the other end.
So it will be that remote.
So that's why a sat phone isnecessary and you would want to
have, like a, a backup plan,because you never know what can

(44:17):
go wrong.
I mean, it could beappendicitis, it could be, you
know, broken arm or leg, itcould be, you know, a concussion
.
You can't be paranoid thatsomething's going to happen,
because otherwise you're goingto miss out.
Yeah, you can't worry aboutdoing something or not doing
something because of fear, thatyou just have to kind of, you
know, be prepared, have theskill set, have the you know,

(44:40):
and have that you know, themental and physical preparedness
and you're have your skill set,you know, know your gear, know
you know.
Don't just show up and run byRAI the week before your trip
and buy a bunch of stuff thatyou haven't become familiar with
.
You know.
Make sure that you know yourgear inside now, have spent time
with it.
You know you know.
Make sure that you're sleepingbag.
If you're, you know six feet,you know six two.

(45:03):
Or make sure that the sleepingbag that you bought is not like
a short, make sure you got thelong one so that your shoulders
aren't sticking out of it on acold night.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
So you know you want to make sure that you're always
prepared and have the right, theright gear that's something
that you also taught me is toalways test out your gear before
you set sail, and that wasactually really beneficial like
even like getting in thesleeping bag and making sure you
know how to roll it up anddoing all this stuff.
That travel insurance has itbeen around, yeah, for a long

(45:34):
time?

Speaker 2 (45:35):
yeah, there's multiple companies out there
that.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
I think there's one thing to have.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, there's there's world nomads and there's like a
thing.
Another one at one time wascalled ripcord.
I think it was founded by someformer navy seals and I mean.
So there's several.
I mean I just I've done someeditorial work with world nomads
so I just tend to go back withthem each time and just because
they're just they're familiarthere is, there's something I'm
comfortable with.
I know that if I need them,I've I've not had a need yet,

(46:03):
but I just like it's like.
It's like any type of otherinsurance that you hope that you
don't need it, but it's thereif you do, yeah, and do you pay
for the amount of time that you?
yes, yeah and a lot of it'sbased on like I have to type in
my age, I have to type in whichcountry I'm going country or
countries I'm going to and thenhave to type in how long I'm
going to be there and then whatactivities.
So you can get like a basic planor I think the other one's an

(46:24):
explorer plan, so you can get itbased on like the explorer plan
would be like for certainactivities and a lot of times I
get the explorer plan becauseI'm usually participating in
those activities you know thatcould be there.
There can be inherent risk, Imean, but there's inherent risk,
you know, anything we do.
I mean there's inherent risk indriving to the airport for me
to fly out, you know as, but youknow.

(46:46):
But then there are risks, youknow, if I do fly into the
backcountry, you know, and do a12 day or longer trip, there are
inherent risks, but I meanthose are risks that that are
calculated because I'm I'mprepared for them yeah, I mean
it seems like that would be avery essential tool to have, but
like at least a good safety net.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Is there any places that make you a little nervous
that you would to travel alone,to like you've got a group going
with you to Kilimanjaro?
I'm sure you'd be fine doingthat alone, but is there certain
activities or a place that youwould be a little nervous
traveling to alone?

Speaker 2 (47:23):
most of the trips I travel on as a travel writer,
I've traveled to solo.
I mean, a lot of times I've metup with people on the other end
, but a lot of times though,I've still I've still traveled
from point A to point B solo.
Then sometimes people are thereand sometimes but I've had to
navigate.
You know, I'm sure that thereare places in the the world that

(47:44):
I would be a little bit morehesitant about, but I can't
really think of any.
I mean, again, you would checkto make sure there's no civil
unrest or there's no infectiousdisease outbreaks, but then
again, it's just takingprecautions, like you know, only
using purified water, whetheryou're purifying it yourself or
you're, you know, buying itpurified, making sure that you
know you're not consuming.

(48:04):
You know getting caught up in acholera outbreak, and sometimes
those things can happen whileyou're abroad, not necessarily
before you go.
It may be good, but you know ifyou're going long enough it can
happen.
You know, while you're there,and it's a lot of times you know
brushing your teeth and notlike you would at home and go in
you know sticking out of out ofhabit, just putting it back

(48:24):
under and rinsing it off in yoursink, making sure that you're
rinsing it off with the bottledwater or the purified water, not
rinsing it off in that sink andthen possibly contaminating
your toothbrush and then nexttime you go to brush your teeth
you're contaminating.
You know transferring thosecontaminants to your mouth.
You know, and then you knowgetting.
You know ingesting the.
You know the bacteria, theprotozoans or something like

(48:46):
that that could actually causethat.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
You know GI issues yeah, that was one of the
essential parts of Ecuador washaving to use your water bottle
on your toothbrush and stufflike that.
And then we went to a resort,me and my Marybeth, my family
and everybody.
We went to a resort in Mexicoand I saw them sticking their
toothbrushes under the sink andI was like, what are you doing?
And then nobody got sick.

(49:10):
I was the I was, but obviouslythey had like a filter system
and everything at the resort,but my instincts were I was
still putting, taking the waterbottle and using it and I just
walked away from the bathroomwhen I'm brushing my teeth and
that way I don't get caught upand I don't, you know,
accidentally, out of habit,stick it under the under the
faucet and rinse it outafterwards.
That's how you then you justhave toothpaste dripping all

(49:32):
over the room.
So when you go to thesecountries, like, what is your?
What excites you the most abouttraveling to a different
country?
Like I know, for me it is forone I love to see how other
people live, like seeing howthey experience the world and
what they're given in theirenvironment, and then also I

(49:53):
love to try the food that isassociated with those cultures.
So, like, what is your?

Speaker 2 (49:59):
yeah, it's, it's similar.
It's a lot of times it's justgetting off the the beaten track
and being able to experience.
You know it's one thing to goto an all-inclusive resort but
yet you're kind of alsoprotected from seeing what the
real life is outside of thatcompound.
And I, you know what.
I have been to an all-inclusiveresort I was trying to think if

(50:19):
I had but.
But I like to get out intoexperience the, the true culture
and the, the actual real lifeof a, of a country and the
culture, so that I'm actuallyseeing what it's really like
there, not what I'm allowed tosee because of you know.
You know a lot of times peoplefly into the all-inclusive

(50:40):
resorts and don't get me wrong,I mean I'm, they're great and
you know it's great for peoplejust to get to those countries
and to see it, but a lot oftimes you're only getting to.
You know they have like wallsaround it and you know you're
not really getting to see thetrue culture and to getting out
and tasting some of the realfood.
You know it'd be like going andgoing to your local Chinese
restaurant and eating you know,quote unquote Chinese food, or

(51:04):
going to actual China andactually eating food in China,
which would be Chinese food, butI they're home cooking, though.
That's right.
That's right.
It would be, you know,indigenous to the, to the
country, not like what you know.
It's become commonplace, youknow.
And even food in Mexico isdifferent thing going to Mexican
restaurants, you know, it'sjust.
I mean, there are similarities,but then there's also

(51:27):
differences, so it's all.
I like the culture, I love tosee off the beaten areas, I like
to get off the beaten path andnot just see the, the touristy
sites.
Those are what excite me.
Even though we did the IncaTrail, if, if you guys have been
a little bit more backpacksavvy, we might have done like
one of the other more remotetrails instead of one of more of

(51:50):
like the most prevalent one isthe Inca Trail, but there are
some other ones that you canactually take and arrive at
Machu Picchu, and but then again, I wanted you guys to
experience it and then, you know, if we ever get the opportunity
, maybe we do it again, we go doanother and come into it from a
different angle.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
That would be awesome is so, with all these other
countries, that you've gone toand experience.
What is the best food thatyou've ever had and what is the
most exotic food?
What is the best?

Speaker 2 (52:20):
food, best food I don't I've eaten.
I went on, actually I did afood tour through Norway for
Eating Well magazine and wrote,just like, on the Norwegian diet
, and so I spent 10 days justtraveling throughout Norway
eating.
You know which?
The Arctic current and the GulfStream current meet and they
form like this cornucopia orthis bread basket of the seafood

(52:41):
realm, because it's the perfecttemp of the cold water meets
the warm water current of theGulf Stream and it creates this
perfect conditions for seafood.
And then they go down and handpick the scallops off the bottom
, and so I tried.
You know everything fromoysters to to shrimp and and
scallops and then a whole bunchof different things and I've,

(53:01):
you know, reindeer meat and howis reindeer meat reindeer meats.
You really can't tell the a bigdifference in it and probably
like venison.
But you know, but it wasbecause I had it with.
They ate a lot of.
I was there in October so I hada lot of like root vegetables
and stuff like that.
I've never really been a beetperson but really started eating

(53:22):
beets after that trip becausethey, they I guess maybe it was
just I was used to them here andlike they're coming out of a
you know, a can you know, butthey're they were canning them,
but they were canning them injars after the last harvest so
that they were prepared.
So a lot of that type of stuffand so the best food it would
just be.
You know, trying.

(53:43):
I mean, every place has alwaysgot something different.
Their, their culinary habitsare just much different from
from.
Greenly was a very it's a veryprotein based diet because
there's not a lot of there areactual not many trees in
Greenland.
It's a very low shrubs andground cover.
That is the vegetation, but soit's a very protein based diet.

(54:08):
And you know, you, of course,they, they fly stuff in now so
you can get potatoes andvegetables and stuff like that.
But yeah, I didn't really have.
I've eaten muskox.
I've eaten what is a muskox?
A muskox is like a.
It's like a large woolly cow,but it's a wild animal they have
like the.
They'll form like a circle whenthere's a predator approaching

(54:31):
and they'll put all the youngones inside the circle and then
all the adults face outward withtheir horns.
So I've eaten that and maybeit's more like buffalo, but it
was a little bit fattier becausethey grow, they live in a very
cold environment and Probablythe worst thing of every.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
I can see it now.
It looks kind of like a buffalo, big, wooly yeah, but a lot of
hair, a lot of fur, a lot ofhair.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yeah, and Probably the worst thing of every and was
in Greenland.
It was Seal, and they look at,seal is just being.
There's millions of them aroundGreenland, which is the world's
largest island, and it kind ofto me, if I had to explain it,
it had the texture of steak butit tasted like fish.
Yeah, it just wasn't.
I don't know, I don't, I Didn'treally have, I don't really

(55:17):
have a Another way of describingit.
It just wasn't, just wasn'tvery palatable.
But yet they, they eat it,because there's so many of them
around the Greenland that they,you know, they, they use their
hides and then they, you know,and part of it, they call them
out too just to keep them fromoverpopulating.
And the same thing isGreenland's one of the few

(55:37):
countries that hunt whale.
There each family is restrictedto a certain portion each year
and they use it for delicacies.
They use it for specialoccasions, holidays and like
special family meetings andgatherings.
So they, they eat that so theylike divvy it out between each
family.
Each family gets X number ofkilograms or whatever their,

(55:59):
their quantity is, but yet therethat's.
So it's very, it's very, it'smonitored very closely so that
it's they're not just Killingthem, you know, just for the
sake of killing them, so thatthey're like they die from,
whether it is like way like theyare going out there to hunt
them.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
I guess, yeah, they are actively hunting them.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Okay, there's only 50,000 plus people on the entire
island, so, but not everybodymay eat Well, so not every
family may even want theirallotment.
So I don't know, I don't knowhow many whales Greenland
harvest each year, but yeah,it's a it's a very restricted
Market.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Did you have whale in yourEngland?

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, I did, I had it and I didn't.
I didn't know it untilAfterwards and I'd been, I'd
seen it in Norway before and Ijust kind of bypassed it because
I have kind of like a moralDilemma there.
You know, being a large marine,he's a lover of animals.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Well, I've seen him catch spiders and release them
outside and I was like I want tokill that thing yeah, so yeah,
I didn't, and so I.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
but I want to offend the family that I was having
dinner with in.
Greenland.
So it was just a.
If I'd not known any different,I would just thought it was
just like maybe reindeer orcaribou or or Something similar,
but it you know.
But afterwards it wasn't likeyou know, I felt like that I was
, I was in their home, I was, Iwould never offend anybody, and
that's another thing abouttraveling, as I never would like

(57:27):
.
If you ask about Researchingbefore I go on a place, I always
just try to find out like howto.
It's not about learning thelanguage.
A lot of times it's justlearning how to not Culturally
offend somebody.
You know what we're used to inthe US may be different than
what somebody's you know used toin Greenland or in Japan or in
Africa you know, in a country inAfrica.
So you always I think it'simportant to learn that maybe a

(57:51):
few key words and phrases, butfor the most part just making
sure you don't do anythingthat's going to, you know, maybe
offend somebody in a differentculture.
That you know you're in againthere and you're in there.
You know you're in theirbackyard, not in your own.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Exactly, and you would think that if they're
making something very preciousto them for you, you would need
to.
Yeah, you wouldn't want tooffend anybody like how do you
find out what is the Socialsituations and how?

Speaker 2 (58:21):
I mean I, I mean fortunately, when I first
started traveling, we know wehad to, like resort to travel
guides and books.
Now, I mean pretty much, youcan find everything that you
want on your phone or on your,your computer and you can just
look it up.
You know what are the, you knowcultural faux pas that we want
to avoid.
You know, while in traveling acertain country, you know like

(58:43):
in Japan.
You know using chopsticks, youknow you're not supposed to.
You know Leave them in acertain position on the table
and you know you want to, youknow.
So it's just different thingsthat I think that it's sometimes
it's just it's just sometimesit's just being smart, like
watching other people aroundthere.
You know it's not the differencebetween traveling between you

(59:03):
know Georgia and Montana.
We're still the United States,but you know, if you're going
from you know the state ofGeorgia to the Republic of
Georgia over in Europe, then youwant to make sure that you're
actually you know.
You know the culturaldifferences.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Hey, there's even some odd cultural differences
between like states in theUnited.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
States, exactly.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
You had mentioned that you kind of felt morally
Conflicted when you were withlike whale.
Is there anything that youabsolutely refused to eat when
I'm in the States?

Speaker 2 (59:33):
yes, there's a lot of things I refuse to eat.
Yeah, it's just a lot ofChick-fil-A, that's right when.
I travel abroad, I tend to.
I tend to be a little bit moreexperimental.
I'm always grew up a pickyeater.
But yeah, when I was in I wasworking on a primate research
project in Argentina back in thelate 90s.
One thing that they ate wasblood sausage.
And I'm not saying I wouldn'ttry it now, that was 30

(59:56):
something.
I say yeah, yeah, over 20something years ago.
I'm not saying I wouldn't tryit, I wouldn't try it now, but
in 97 there was no way I wasgonna eat, like a you know, a
bunch of cow blood that had been, you know, coagulated inside of
a like a little tubular sackand like a hot dog and it was
just basically just you know,coagulated blood, mm-hmm.

(01:00:17):
Yeah, I wasn't gonna eat thatthen.
And and I'm not saying IWouldn't eat it now, but it
doesn't sound very Pallatableeven 20 something years later.
But again, I'm also much olderand wiser, so I might, at least
would, try to down it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Mm-hmm, I'm pretty sure I've had blood sausage.
I don't think it was Tooterrible about it.
I didn't leave a lastingimpression on it, so.
But I don't even remember whatwas the situation.
I was just like, oh, I thoughtit was just salt, like just
sausage.
I didn't think it was like theblood and the coagulated.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Well, when we were in Peru, I mean, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Your brother's house, huh.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Yeah, you're, and we never got to try the kooie,
which is the the guinea pig,while we were there, because it
we never found it in a.
We found some of the live onesin a market but we never found
the cooked versions.
But you know, I think you andyou and I would have tried them.
I think your, your brothers,were looking for chicken fingers
and and fries.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Yeah, they in Peru it's like a delicacy where they
essentially they like spit theGuinea pig, essentially it's a
guinea pig, and they love topresent it almost like it's
running, like it is like fullyin display and you have to it,
pick off the pieces, and so it'sa very interesting to see them

(01:01:38):
even carrying around like theirsaute.
Like I remember a lady that hadlike a tub of Dead guinea pigs,
all like that she had they hadall the fur off of them and she
was just carrying them around.
I was like, oh, that was gonnabe somebody's lunch.
But yeah, every culture is very, very different.
So, yeah, I don't know what,where I would draw the line Is

(01:02:02):
there.
So you said you would try that.
Now, is there anything now thatyou?

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
know, I mean I still, I mean I'm still big believer
in, you know, protecting thelarge sea mammals like the
whales and stuff like that.
So I'm not going to activelyseek out, like I said, I'd seen
it in Norway before I ever wentto Greenland and Norway still
does hunt and I could, you know,could get whale sausage and
stuff like that.
But I didn't try it therebecause it was actively.

(01:02:26):
I would have had to go up andbought it from a little vendor
and stuff like that at a marketand I think we were in Bergen
and I just couldn't.
I couldn't pull myself to it.
But when I was in anotherfamily's home and they were
cooking dinner for us, you knowI ate it then.
So I mean, yeah, usually when Itravel abroad I'm really not a
big fan of oysters, but when Iwas traveling in Norway I did

(01:02:49):
own that food tour.
I mean you can't be a foodwriter if you're not trying the
food.
So I had to try a lot of thingsthat you know, whereas I'm
pretty set in my ways on a dailybasis because I tend to eat you
know, the I pray have aregimented diet.
But you know, when I travelabroad I tend to be open up, my
become a little bit moreexperimental.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Mm-hmm.
Have you ever seen thedocumentary Blackfish?
I have.
Yeah, that's a crazydocumentary where it just it
just shows how intelligent someof those larger marine life
creatures are and it makes youvery, very sad that, because I
used to love SeaWorld and, youknow, go into a big aquariums
and seeing, just getting to seethem period was really cool.

(01:03:35):
But now I go there and I'm like, oh no, you're in jail, you
know so yeah, exactly, I'drather see them in their natural
environment.
Exactly One.
And if you see a whale, ifyou're swimming in a whale's
ribosogy, you should be a littleconcerned.
But thinking about that, isthere any like I know you've
swam with, like manta rays orstingrays?

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
And I've swam with penguins and Antarctica and Okay
, Was that the most exoticanimal you've?

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
I mean penguins, pretty exotic.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, when I say swim, I was inthe water for, maybe you know,
three to five minutes becausethe water temp was like 32
degrees and the outside tempthere at half moon island was
about 30, the outside tent wasabout 32 and the water tent was
about 32.
So we're equal, but the sun waspretty intense.
So when you're standing thereon the beach I just walked in
with just a swimsuit on and it'slike every nerve ending just

(01:04:28):
kind of goes numb and then allof a sudden they all come
rushing back really quickly andit just feels like thousands of
needles stabbing you.
But it's no different than apolar plunge.
You do it and you get in andget out, but then you could feel
the the little chin strappenguins just kind of coming
through.
You didn't actually feel them,they didn't touch you, but you
could feel the water column movepast you.

(01:04:49):
Where they went.
They kind of just swam by youso quickly like little torpedoes
.
You could feel the water columnpush by you.
Yeah, that's super interesting.
So I think that that was.
That was pretty cool.
And of course I've been seakayaking and you know, had seals
pop up and sea turtles and youknow I've had sharks and stuff
like different you know well, ofcourse, dolphins, you know I've

(01:05:09):
had different animals you knowpop up while I've been stand up
paddle boarding or in seakayaking, different places.
But yeah, I mean, you know,sometimes when you get off the
beaten path is when you, youtend to see cause.
Animals tend to act in a normal, you know, in a their normal
behavior, as opposed to anadaptive behavior that they
become accustomed to from likejust having to evolve and having

(01:05:32):
to kind of acclimate to theirsurroundings, like the deer in
the wild act differently thanthe deer you know in your
neighborhood because they'vebecome acclimated to people.
They've become acclimated tocars going by.
I mean they, you know theyhaven't adapted enough to avoid
them all the time but they have,but they have adapted to seeing

(01:05:53):
that you know coming up andeating your plants.
You know your flowers and stuffout of your, your pots and your
flower beds, so they've learnedto come in there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
but the deer in the wild act totally different than
they would and you know same waywith you know bear and you know
big cats and yeah, it's reallyinteresting, especially deer,
because if you're in a protectedarea where there's no deer
hunting allowed deer are they'lljust hang out in the open, no
trees, and then if you're in atotally different area, they

(01:06:24):
usually hang by the trees in agood way that and they'll escape
in a second.
Exactly, and if it's in a veryprotected area, they're not
worried about the predatorsuntil the other side, one day
where they decided to have thehunting party in the protected
area and then Right, well, I wasstanding up paddle boarding in
the Yukon and it was late atnight and we heard something

(01:06:45):
rustling in the bushes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
And we had a like a campfire.
And we were paddling down theYukon River and we heard
something rustling in the bushesand we just all just kind of
turn around and look, and Ithink there were five of us in
our, in our group, and we justkind of turned around and out
popped this little porcupine andyou know, he probably maybe had

(01:07:06):
experienced people in the past,but probably not likely and he
just kind of rummaged along thethe shoreline of the river and
then just kind of went back upinto the woods and just kind of
went on about his merry way.
Had no, you know, didn't comebegging for food or you know,
didn't.
You know he did, but he wasn't,he wasn't really afraid of us

(01:07:28):
because I mean, he's got hislittle armor, his little, his
quills and and so he just itjust kind of went off on its own
and just didn't scurry off butacted in a very normal behavior.
And usually, you know, bearsare the same way.
If they've been habituated,they will, sometimes they will
become used to, like you know,raiding garbage cans and stuff

(01:07:49):
like that, but bears in thetheir natural environment that
haven't become habituated oracclimated to human existence.
You know they're just as afraidof you as you are of them, and
that's the way you want it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Yeah, that's super interesting to think about, like
an animal that's never evenseen a human, while you know we
might read about them andthere's plenty of animals that
I've never seen, like not incaptivity, you know, like we get
zoos so we're like, oh, we'veseen almost every animal, but
you don't really know how alion's going to act in the wild

(01:08:23):
as opposed to in its captivity.
What is the most interestingplace that you've ever been and
what did you do?

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
there Most interesting place I've ever been
, you know it's I would sayGreenland would rank way up
there.
Only because I saw less peoplein Greenland than I saw in
Antarctica, because I was on anexpedition cruise ship and I had
about 300 people on board thatcruise ship, you know, at the

(01:08:52):
bottom of the, you know theworld, whereas there are 50,000
people in Greenland.
That was for the most part ofmy trip.
I saw the two photographersthat roamed that trip, myself
and then our guide.
So there were four of us, youknow, camping on a remote fjord
for multiple days and that was.
I saw less people on theworld's largest island than I

(01:09:14):
saw on the seventh continent,because we were on a large
cruise ship.
But yeah, it was a.
It was just funny to and to beable to see a land that Vikings
founded a thousand years agoWell, I'll say founded, though
it wasn't lost because the therewere indigenous people living
there, but the Vikings colonizedit and their westward expansion

(01:09:37):
from Scandinavia and then fromIceland.
They came over and we actuallystayed near, we actually passed
by a settlement that Eric theRed, who was Leif Ericsson's
father, set up and then Leif was, I think was maybe born, but he
grew up in Greenland and thenfrom there he came over.
You know, history is kind ofshowing us that maybe he even

(01:09:59):
made it to North America.
That's what.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
I've heard is that they that he made it all the way
to North America, which that'ssuch a interesting thing to even
begin with, is that the Vikingsactually called Greenland.
Even though Greenland wascovered in ice and Iceland was
covered in green or grass, theyswitched the name so that people
would want to go to Greenland.
It was more of a marketing ploy, but but and now we're so.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
stick to the name, yeah a thousand years ago,
though, greenland was a littlebit warmer Okay, it is now so
but it still was stillpredominantly covered in a large
ice sheet, like it is now.
But the, the habitable areaswere just around the coastline,
like they still are now.
But there's a little bit, alittle bit, probably a little
bit more of it back then,because they brought sheep over
and then they were farmers, andthen they were.

(01:10:43):
You know, they were ranchers,for lack of a better term, but
they were, they were farmers.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Yeah, did you know that the Bluetooth?
He's a big fan of Viking stuff,so did you know that the
Bluetooth emblem is actuallyViking ruins?
He was a Viking king.
Yeah, harold Bluetooth, haroldBluetooth yeah, obviously, man
knows his facts.
But yeah, the Bluetooth emblemis like Harold and Bluetooth and

(01:11:11):
it's the Viking emblems for orrunes would be what they called,
and they're like stuck together.
Yep, it's a.
It's quite interesting, which Iknow the Vikings didn't have
any wireless capabilities, butit's which makes it weird, like
that they would even call itthat, but it is very interesting
that they did that to beginwith, which I also love.

(01:11:32):
You know, evidently he had a,very had a, had a blue tooth,
that's right, very odd colortooth is what it was said.
So, yeah, and I guess one ofthe only other questions I had
to ask you is that is there anyother place that you want to go?
I know that you said that therewere some other countries that
you hadn't been to in continents.
Where is, like, on the top ofyour list, where you want?

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
to go Top of my list.
I have so many.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Yeah, he's got a list .
That's why I had to switch upthe question.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
I'd love to knock off those last two continents.
And then, you know, africa isso large I would love to explore
more of it.
I mean even going to Tanzaniaand climbing Kilimanjaro next
year.
That's really only one of of alot of countries in Africa.
You know, when people alwaysrefer to Africa, they always
call it Africa.
They don't really.
Africa is a continent, you know, and it's made up of a bunch of

(01:12:21):
countries.
You know, north America is madeup of a whole lot of countries,
but we have we refer to them asthe United States and Canada
and Mexico, and so, yeah, someof my top countries that would
be on my top of my list beingNepal, tibet, bhutan, some of
the Southeast Asian countries.
Of course, there's not really,you know, given the opportunity,

(01:12:42):
there's not a country or aplace that I wouldn't go to.
You know, again, making surethat there's no civil unrest or,
you know, mass outbreaks orsomething.
But all that aside, yeah,there's really no place that I
wouldn't go and love to explore.
And then, you know, love to beable to, to write about and just
to, you know, just be able toexperience, because, you know,

(01:13:03):
just life, we only get one spinaround in this life.
You know you want to make sureI get to do and to see as much
at the you know.
So, when I'm sitting backreflecting years from now, and
be able to well, not just that,just to be able to share it with
other people, like you know youand your brothers, or share it
with you know my wife, or youknow those different adventures,
being able to, being able tohave those adventures and share

(01:13:25):
them with somebody you know elseis it's always great.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
Yeah, that's one of the best things that you taught
me as well, and and it wasn't, Iguess, necessarily even
teaching me but when we went toPeru we had to write articles
for whether it was he told us towrite about for one of our
experiences, and also about,like, the different gears that

(01:13:50):
we were using and how all thatinterlaid.
And now every time I gosomewhere I keep like a log and
I was searching through my notestoday and I found like a bunch
of other, like when I was inColumbia, and I would just write
down like, oh, I did this and Isaw this today, and today I
went to, you know, even when Iwent to California, and taking

(01:14:10):
that time for introspectionactually allows me to remember
everything a lot better formyself.
But then later on, other peoplecan, you know, see what I've
done and I'll be able to relayit better.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Well, you're definitely going to forget if
you don't write it down.
And you know we have.
You know our phones in our areusually in our possession, so
it's always a great you don'thave to have a notebook.
I mean, you've got that littlenote thing.
You know you can take notes oryou can send yourself emails or
you know that are just littlesnippets of information that you
might forget otherwise or mightjust you know.

(01:14:46):
It's not that you will forgetthem, but you might forget the
order of events.
You know when did this occur,when did this happen?
But if you, if you take andwrite the date on it and then
write down your notes, thenthey'll always be there, so
you'll always have thatinformation.
So it's it's good because it'sa glimpse into your trip, and so
you know, 10 years from now youmight still remember the facts,

(01:15:07):
but you might not remember theorder of the facts.
So if you have those notes andyou keep them in a you know
ultimately put them in a photoalbum or a you know a photo book
, like a Shutterfly photo bookor something like that, then you
always have, you know, a recordso that you can go back and
reflect on.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
Yeah, I keep.
I even found my journal, whichis a written journal of my time,
for one in Peru and one inEcuador, and I was just like
smirking at all the stuff thatwe did.
So, clay, taught me a lot ofthings growing up, whether it be
for adventure or whatever, andI didn't know if you had any

(01:15:44):
ridiculous stories of me as achild that you would like to
share.
Since you are my uncle, I'llgive you this one free shot.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
I'm sure I do.
Well, I always enjoyed becausewhen you know you and your, your
brothers, were just a couple ofyears apart in age, so it was
usually I always had the threeof you.
Whenever you guys would youknow, come you know during the
summer and visit or for othervisits.
But I always tried to give youguys opportunities to us to
explore together and to trydifferent things.
You know, I think you guys werehad you guys see kayaking, you

(01:16:15):
know, when you were like four orfive years old.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
I remember I almost fell out of it first and you
were like get in the kayak.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
Yeah, and your brothers were just picking up
seaweed as we were passing itand they were just putting it in
the boat with them.
You know, and I talked, allthree of you guys how to ride
your bikes without the trainingwheels, and and then you know, I
remember one time I was, thatwas the story you were going to
tell.
Yeah, then here it comes, and sothere was like this large mound

(01:16:44):
of pompous grass and you know,jordan was coming around and
he's riding and long, and all ofa sudden he just kind of loses
like control of the bike andit's like it almost like it was
like a Venus fly trap, almostlike he.
He just kind of went flyinginto this big mound of pompous
grass and it's like it justswallowed him whole because he
just disappeared into it andlike the pompous grass just kind

(01:17:06):
of like came around and likecovered him up and then yeah,
and I nailed the center of the Iguess it's like the stalk or
whatever it is and I went flyingforward on the bike and racked
myself in the center of the bikeand it was.
It was not a great experience,but it definitely well, I mean,

(01:17:27):
was a fun one, well, and thatyou were learning to ride your
bike and you know, we lived atthe beach then like we do now,
but in a different place.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
Which leads me to my.
I figured that was the Joe orthat was going to be the one you
told what is the differencebetween a pompous grass and a
pompous ass?
I don't know the bike inbetween them.
That's right, exactly, yeah, sothat that was a great.
Honestly, though, taught me howto ride a bike, so can't even

(01:17:55):
can't even complain about that.
Yeah, I, I forgot.
I didn't know really how tobrake yet, so we were going down
somewhere and I was like uh-oh,lost control, and then I did
what every kid does and justpicks their feet up off the
pedals, went straight into atree, exactly.
Well, we've reached about anhour at this point, maybe a
little bit longer.

(01:18:15):
So, you know, you're gettingold.
At this point, your tinge spanis probably fading, so we're
going to wrap this one up, butis there any advice that you
could get that you want to giveto younger people growing up
that want to either get intoadventure or, you know,
traveling, or just advice toanybody, that's, you know,

(01:18:37):
growing up in these times?

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Yeah, I mean sure there's.
You know always take a.
You know dare to do greatly.
I mean, you know there's always.
You know a ship is safe in theharbor.
But that's not what ships aremade for.
They're made to go out andexplore.
They're made to go out, youknow, and beyond the reach of
the beach and beyond the reachof the harbor.
And so I remember my mom gaveme a plaque Maybe it was after

(01:19:06):
college or during college and itread something along the lines
of you can't reach second baseif you're afraid to take your
foot off first.
So you know, and it's kind oflike that whole thing of you
know, shoot for the stars orshoot for the shoot for the
stars and hopefully you'll landamong the trees.
You know, it's kind of thatsame thing.
You know, to get somewhere, yousometimes you've got to be

(01:19:28):
willing to.
You know, think about the earlyexplorers, you know the, the
Columbus's and the Magellans andstuff like that, when they were
talked about, like hey, theworld's flat and you're going to
float off the end of it andthere are sea monsters and stuff
like that.
You know, if, if everybody hadthat mindset, we wouldn't have
that ability now to tounderstand things.

(01:19:48):
I mean we, like we've been, youknow humans have been to space.
So I think sometimes you have toget outside your comfort zone
and you know there's there'snothing.
There's so much that we have inreach, in our hands.
You know well like we canresearch now.
I mean before those were, thosewere pre-computers and you know
, even I didn't have computers,you know, growing up, not the

(01:20:09):
access that we have now.
So a lot of mine was going andlooking in books and trying to
find maps and stuff of places Iwanted to to go, backpacking and
stuff.
So you know, now you haveaccess to it.
So watch, you know, if, ifyou're uncomfortable with you
know a particular skill set,like starting a camp stove or
something like that there areYouTube videos and or there are

(01:20:31):
probably clinics at some of yourcamping stores, or join, find a
group online that you know thatyou can tag along with and you
can, you can get those.
You know.
Build up your skill set, youknow, before you go out and
maybe do a three hike on theAppalachian Trail or the Pacific
Coast, pacific Crest Trail, youknow, build up a little bit of

(01:20:51):
skill set before you.
You know, head off on a sixmonth backpacking backpacking
trip, you know.
But build those skills up, youknow.
You know it's the, just put onefoot in front of the other and
just, you know, head out thedoor and you know the skills
will come.
And you don't have to have, youknow, like I said, thousands
earlier.
I said you don't have to havethousands of dollars worth of
gear because you can still getby, especially in the spring,

(01:21:14):
summer and fall.
Winter requires a wholedifferent, you know, level of
skills and gear just because ofthe temps.
But you know the rest of thetime, you know, start out in the
summer where it's, you know,even if you fail, what's the
worst that's going to happen.
A lot of times you're going toget wet, they might be a
miserable night's sleep, butit's not going to probably, you
know you're probably not goingto, like you know, get injured

(01:21:37):
or get hurt greatly, but youwill.
You know, you'll learn from itand the next time you go out
you'll take that experience andthen you'll build upon that
experience.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
Yeah, they say that the differences in skill levels
between two people, two sets ofpeople, are usually just based
off the amount of practice andthe different scenarios you put
that practice into, and betweenthat there's nothing really
different between two sets ofpeople.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
I'd say watch how fast you can change a car tire
and then watch the guys on aNASCAR pit crew, you know, watch
how fast they can change a tire.
And it's all about because it'srepetition and it's practice.
It's just over and over.
I mean, do you want to?
And we'll kind of circle backand go full circle here.
You know, do you want a doctorthat's performed one procedure?

(01:22:24):
Do you want a doctor that'sperformed 200 procedures Exactly
Of the same procedure?
You want somebody with that,that repetition, because they
get better with it, witheverything you know.
And it's the same way witheverything you know.
Running's the same way you.
Running's just about repetition.
You know, you get better withthe more times you do it.
You, you know, every day it'sall about just perpetuation.

(01:22:48):
You know, if I run three milestoday and then I run three and a
half the next day, I'm going toget better with each, with each
day If I keep doing it and Iput forth the effort.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
Yeah, that's one of the key things is just to go out
and put one foot in front ofthe other, like you said, and
just wing it.
Practice and you'll get better.
And I think that's a greatplace to end the show.
Clay, you've been such amonumental influence to me and
also just a wealth of knowledge,and so I hope everybody has

(01:23:24):
enjoyed this as much as I have.
So thank you so much forentertaining me.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
Well, this life's not over yet.
We still got some otheradventures to have, so hang on
tight.

Speaker 1 (01:23:33):
Yeah, baby.
So we'll be back with y'allwith the next adventure.

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