September 18, 2024 • 39 mins
What if you could step into the mind of David Chase and uncover the origins of The Sopranos? Join us on the Oh Brother Podcast as we dissect the new documentary "Wise Guy: David Chase and the Sopranos," directed by Alex Gibney and now streaming on Max. We explore how this two-part series, originally envisioned as a feature film, captures Chase's journey and the show's creation. You'll discover how the documentary's unique set design mirrors Dr. Melfi's office and how "The Sopranos" found renewed life during the COVID-19 quarantine, largely thanks to the "Talking Sopranos" podcast by Michael Imperioli and Steve Schirripa.
We then shift gears to discuss James Gandolfini's legacy, particularly through the lens of the Coen Brothers' film "The Man Who Wasn't There." Mistakes and corrections aside, we dive into Gandolfini's illustrious career and the fascinating casting choices that could have altered "The Sopranos" as we know it. Hear about Steve Van Zandt's near-casting as Tony Soprano, Lorraine Bracco's pivotal decision to play Dr. Melfi, and the technological hurdles faced after Nancy Marchand's untimely passing. The discussion also highlights the immense pressure Chase faced to maintain the show's success, fostering a tight-knit, trusting environment with his creative team.
Finally, we delve into the complexity of Carmela Soprano and examine the tragic death of James Gandolfini. We reflect on the emotional weight of Gandolfini's role, his personal struggles, and the impact of his untimely passing on both the cast and the show. The documentary's innovative style is also a topic of interest, mirroring Tony Soprano's iconic drive while offering insights into David Chase's influences from classic filmmakers. We ponder the controversial ending of "The Sopranos" and speculate on what might have been if Gandolfini were still with us. Tune in for a richer, deeper appreciation of one of television's most groundbreaking series.
Actress Karissa Lee Staples
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the O'Brother Podcast with hosts Dan
and Mike Smith, brothers fromthe same mother with different
opinions on movies, tv, videogames and more plus celebrity
interviews.
Get ready, get set it's timefor the O'Brother Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the O'Brother Podcast.
I'm your host, dan Smith.
Alongside me is always mybrother from the same mother,
mike Smith.
How you doing tonight, dan?
Why do you always say that it?
Sounds so forced and fake howare you doing?
Tonight.
It's just it's.
I'm like seriously, how's itgoing tonight?
It just seems so, not you badabing all over your nice ivy lake
(00:42):
suit.
That's the Godfather, not theSopranos.
All right, so we're talkingabout this documentary that just
came out September 7th 2024,called Wise Guy, david Chase and
the Sopranos.
It's currently streaming on Max.
It's a two-part documentary andeach part is a little over.
It's about an hour and 15minutes, I'd say each part
(01:04):
roughly.
Yeah, it's an easy watch backto back.
Yeah, it's directed by AlexGibney.
Like you said, it's broken upinto two parts the first part
pretty much.
Just, really, you know a littlebit of background on David Chase
, yeah, and how you know how hecame to write the pilot of the
show, which was originally goingto be a feature film, right?
(01:25):
Um, and I wasn't sure, like yousaid in the very beginning,
this kind of weird they werelike cutting the interview in
with all of these clips andsound bites from his past and
gibney had him talking overhimself, almost as if he knew I
want to get through this quick,exactly, and about eight minutes
(01:48):
in, chase just wants to get upand leave, right, he's like I
hate doing this.
This is awful.
He has nothing good to say.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Well, he didn't say it was awful.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
He just doesn't clearly want to sit there be
talking about himself becausethe set is ironically very much
the same set as lorraine broccoand you know tony soprano, right
, dr melfi and dr melfi and tony, right.
So, yeah, it's about eightminutes into the documentary
(02:22):
part one, and chase wants to getup and leave because he's not
real keen on talking abouthimself and he doesn't.
What he says to the director isI didn't know it was going to
be so much about me, right, andI think that's a weakness.
I liked it, but I think therewas too much.
I didn't need to know that muchabout Chase.
(02:42):
I loved learning all the otherfacets, but that's what it's
about, right.
So I think that's what you haveto keep in mind.
Look at the title.
It's David Chase and the.
Sopranos.
Do you think it would have beenbetter if it was Wise Guys?
Or Look at the Sopranos.
No, no.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
With.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
David Chase?
No, no, because I think it wasabout David Chase again, which
is why it made him uncomfortable.
Now it didn't stay on that asintensely as it is in the very
beginning.
I mean, once you're 15, 20minutes in, he's basically
talking about the Sopranos atthat point.
But we got to figure out how weget there through his
(03:24):
background.
As a writer, I gotta show thisjesus.
I mean every.
No, this, this one episode.
It's got to be a thing ofphysical media.
Let me turn it over, folks.
I'll be back in a minute.
No, this is like 30 pounds.
No, kidding, right, you openthe bar, can you describe it for
those listening?
It's, it's, it's the soprano'soriginal box set.
(03:46):
When you open it, there's abook.
We're not, you're not going tounbox this.
No, I'm just showing you, justshow it how big it is, how it's
like 30 pounds, right, it's oneof those things it's not easy to
grab and and flip on.
I tend to just go to HBO, likeI said, but there's some
(04:07):
commentaries that are not on HBO, that are here.
Okay, so we're not talkingabout the documentary, so let's
get back to talking about thedocumentary.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But would you recommend this for somebody
who's never seen the Sopranos?
Yes, yes, but I wouldn'trecommend it for somebody like
me who knows everything aboutthe Sopranos and has watched the
Sopranos a thousand times overRight, I think you know like
I've watched.
When they aired, I had all thephysical discs.
(04:37):
I've since rewatched themnumerous times, a lot of that in
covid, like so many peopleduring the quarantine found the
Sopranos for the first time,really, cause this went off the
air in 2007.
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah,long gone.
And also, another thing relatedto the quarantine is Michael
(05:00):
and Perioli and Steve Schereppa.
They did a podcast calledTalking Sopranos Right, which
you can get.
Yeah, it's out there and it'son Max actually now too, exactly
the video version of it, andit's fantastic because they have
on a lot of the cast from overthe years.
They go through every singleepisode.
(05:21):
It's like 90 or 91 episodes,the podcast, and it's it's
really really good.
I would recommend it forsomebody that isn't familiar
with the Sopranos.
Really, I, I, I mean the sensethat, like I, I wouldn't want to
give spoiler alert.
I mean, you know, but not as,like hardcore fans.
There's nothing to, in myopinion, to learn from this that
(05:44):
you don't?
I thought I learned a lot.
Well, like what well, I didn'tknow how tough james gandolfini
was to work with, and I thinkthis is an unblinking.
I don't think that's a fairstatement well, they talk about,
you know, setting up anintervention for him this is way
(06:04):
they weren't really specificyeah, right, but this is way
late this is like season six,right and it wasn't like.
Yeah, it wasn't like it was inseason two, he's creating all
this drama.
I mean, I don't knowspecifically, obviously it
wasn't there, but I think theydon't cast this.
(06:24):
You know, paint this picturethat he was difficult to work
with from the jump.
I don't think that's fair.
I didn't get that.
Well, I mean, your buddy,little steven, says it was like
he, he wanted to quit every day.
That was like season two andthree.
Well, right, but that's justbecause of the pressure that he
was feeling as someone carryingthis series, because this thing
(06:48):
was a hit from the get-go, right, although it took a while and
this is something else I didn'tremember it took eight months
from pilot to show.
I think it was 18 months, wasit 18?
So I think it was 18 months.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's a long time yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Because I didn't realize it aired January 99.
It felt like earlier than that.
Yeah, me too, but they wereshooting, of course, before that
.
But yeah, I thought I was inlaw school when this aired and
it was post-law school, so thatwas kind of the measuring stick
for me.
(07:26):
I was, uh, I was just obsessedwith this when it was, when it
was out, you know.
I was from the from the get, gofrom the jump.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, yeah, and I and I and I've remained.
It's, it's my favorite show ofthis genre of all time, easily,
um, show of this genre of alltime easily, um, but yeah, I
mean what I?
I mean talking about gandalfini, so so you bring that up.
I mean I, I didn't reallyremember the degree to which he
(07:57):
was struggling, you know uh,obviously you saw him putting on
weight and you know some talkof some substance issues and so
forth, but I didn't realize tothe degree and, and you can see,
if you go online on youtube youcan see a lot of different
video clips of him getting intoit with different paparazzi and
(08:19):
people like, just like tonysoprano would.
They showed a little.
Yeah, and I think what'simportant to point out as they
do in the documentary, he wasnot Tony Soprano, he was not
like this at all.
Now, he grew up around and knewpeople like this from growing
up in New Jersey.
But when you heard him speak ininterviews which he didn't do,
(08:41):
a lot of them, in fact good luckfinding his full, one of his
only full length interviews with60 minutes.
I couldn't even find it onlineand I scoured YouTube for it.
But, um, he's very, umwell-spoken and very kind of you
know, uh how about the?
(09:02):
James Liptonpton interview.
Did you see that?
I didn't see it in full, but Ithink I'd seen it originally.
Yeah, there's, there's morefootage of that that you can
find.
Yeah, um, but you know he, hedidn't want to do like the late
night circuit, although he didappear like on saturday night
live once or twice.
He was in the at the news desk,I know.
(09:23):
Now, do you remember him priorto the sopranos?
I well, I don't know if I knewthat.
I knew him before, but did youknow?
Did you know that JamesGandolfini lived across the
street from one of our siblings?
At one point I had no idea.
(09:43):
Did you know that?
Hey, he didn't.
But this was kind of a wildnugget that I didn't know when I
was kind of looking up someinformation on his life.
He was good friends with JohnTravolta because their fathers
were friends when they wereyounger and travolta and
(10:04):
gandolfini did like five filmstogether, including get shorty,
and they also did a civil actionthat's right which was set in
our hometown correct, andgandolfini's character is a
character that lived across thestreet from the woman who was
the main character, who wasgoing after her attorney.
(10:25):
Travolta was going after thecity of wubern but because of
the water and the chemicals thatthe right tanneries were
dumping into the water there,which was giving people leukemia
and and so I forgot that he waseven in that film.
But the true romance isprobably the standout yeah
Performance for me of his at butbefore the Sopranos I bring up
(10:49):
the last castle with RobertRedford big role in that, and
the other one is the Coenbrothers movie.
Do you know which Coen Brothersmovie he was in?
No, I'll give you a hint DoubleIndemnity.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
He wasn't in it, it's a film noir, classic film noir.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Oh, the man who knew too much.
Yes, really he was his wife wasFrances McDormand Really, so he
got into it.
With what year would that havebeen I?
I was prior to, I think it was,it was maybe after miller's
(11:28):
crossing no, I remember thatperformance.
He gets oh yeah no, I'm sorry,the man who wasn't there.
I said the man who knew toomuch.
Isn't that hitchcock?
That's hitchcock.
The man who wasn't there 2001yeah, he played big dave
brewster.
Yeah, I don't.
I haven't seen that film inyears.
So, oh, it's a great that wasjust before the last castle
(11:48):
which so I I'm not sure, likeyou, if I knew him right at that
time or if I saw those moviesretroactively and then was like,
oh yeah, james, I forgot he wasin this.
Yeah, so this is a circle backto the documentary, so I don't
make it all about Gandolfini,but that first part is really
(12:09):
all about the casting Again, howit went from an original idea
for a feature film to a pilot ofa series.
Right, you know, that's a bigpart of that part one.
And then the casting you talkabout, like the seeing, the, the
auditions, right, the.
The biggest one was seeingsteve van zandt as tony.
(12:31):
Chase wanted him as tony, hedid and and he was.
It's hard to not see him assilvio now, but right, but I
could see where it would haveworked.
He just he had that kind ofcharisma and everything.
But HBO is like we're not goingto roll the dice on a guy.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
that's never acted before.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Never acted before.
Are you out of your mind?
He inducted the rascals intothe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
and you could tell he had actingchops.
He was putting on a performancewhen he inducted them.
And he did the same for davidchase.
Well, he was a performer onstage as a rock musician, which
(13:07):
that's entertainment.
That's correct.
You know, that's a differentkind of but it's a lot different
from playing a guitar andsinging to acting right, but he
was very much a ham and they'rein videos.
They're acting in videos in the80s and things you know.
So the other thing about thecast is this cast all knew each
(13:28):
other.
They were all you know in a lotof the same.
If you remember the film treeslounge, steve buscemi, look at
all the characters from thatthat are in the sopranos.
But I found it fascinating thefootage.
The footage was there wasn'tenough of that.
I would have, I agree, more ofthat.
(13:49):
And then you saw, you know,would be actors that were
auditioning for a part that theydidn't get, but then they ended
up in it as something else, asmaller role, somewhere Like
Drea de Mateo, I think.
Right, wasn't she originallycoming in for something else?
Well, she originally was justgoing to be the cocktail
waitress.
Then it became Christopher'slove interest, true, yeah, so
(14:14):
she was there, but not as apermanent fixture.
She was fantastic, yeah.
So I think that kind of sums upthe first part.
You get some background ondavid chase, right, how we get
into the, the business and allof that and how was the casting?
and and how.
It was just really all abouthis mother yeah his mother casts
a huge shadow over the Sopranos.
(14:38):
That I didn't really know.
That, oh really.
Yeah, I just heard that overthe years I've known that, yeah,
nancy Marchand is just wasbrilliant, then it is.
Sadly only gave us about a yearor so of a performance because
she died.
I was going to ask you.
I know she died between seasonsand there was unresolved issues
(15:00):
with her character and they didprobably the worst artificial
intelligence of all time.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
The technology wasn't great.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, at the time, yeah , they tried to superimpose her
face on another actress.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, it wasn't great .
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And it just didn't look right.
But what was interesting andyou, you, you hear it in the
documentary is that you know shewas dying and she basically
told david chase keep me working.
I don't correct I don't want tojust lay around on a hospital
bed and die, you know and Ithink she was just going to be
have a short part and be done,but then, like you said, at her
(15:41):
request and he says, I'm notgoing to say no to her yeah, so
you could see.
You know that she was ailing,she lost a lot of weight and but
she was still deliveringfantastic performances in it.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Then part two.
How would you describe part twoof the documentary?
I thought part two a lot covereda lot of james gandolfini yeah
it also focused a lot onlorraine bracco and her
character and how you know they.
She was going to be carmella,tony's wife, but she wanted to
be dr melfi.
As soon as she read the scriptshe's like this is what I want.
(16:22):
And it focused on certainepisodes.
It was a lot more episodecoverage in part two.
I thought, yeah, I wrote downwhat I thought was interesting
is, you know, the the.
The series is a hit out of thegate and so now it's all about
david.
Chase has to continue todeliver.
He doesn't expect this thing toto blow up like it does.
(16:44):
So now what is this show goingto become?
And he's, you know, he'sbasically locking himself away
with this small group of writers.
They had this very it wasinteresting this very trusting
relationship, to the point whereat one point in the documentary
, chase says we were going tobring an assistant into the room
with us, but we we realized wecouldn't do that because they
(17:06):
were talking about some veryright feeling things of their
own taboo things.
Yes, right, terence winter, oneof those writers who, if you
know, boardwalk empire, that'shim and he he's like he's doing
something that you're watchingright now phenomenal writer yeah
(17:26):
, he's a phenomenal.
Right, when you see his name onthe writing list you know you're
going to get a good.
But this cast, dan, is likefantastic, oh, it's great, and
you can't again.
You can't go back and pictureanybody else in those roles.
But what was interesting aboutit was, you know, the show
became this balance of whatChase talks about as, or
(17:50):
somebody's quoted in it assaying this you know, people
that were tuning in for a serialdrama versus people that were
tuning in for the kind of mobmafia side of it.
Right, less yakking, morewhacking.
They called it right and um andlike terrence winter says we and
I think it's true there mighthave been a few spots where they
(18:12):
went a little extreme, but Idon't.
I would say it's fair that theviolence wasn't gratuitous.
There was a reason for it and,as they point out, here's a
series that was revolutionary atthe time, especially for HBO.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
The networks all passed, correct Everybody passed
on it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
He brought it to every network that is being led
by an antihero, and so, as Ithink Terrence winter points out
at one at one, you know,segment um they.
Every now and then they wouldhave to just surprise and shock
the hell out of you, to reel youback into to, to, to get you to
realize okay, these are the,these are the characters that
(18:53):
you're rooting for.
Yes, but they right.
Yes, but they right, but theseare stone cold murderers, right?
You know, it's all fun andgames until you owe them money
or something right and all betsare off, so it's like watching
the godfather or goodfellas, forsome reason, yeah I'm gonna
make an offer again we'rerooting for the bad guys.
I want michael to become don.
(19:16):
I want michael to.
But one of the fascinatingthings is and steve shrippa says
this on the podcast at onepoint, one of the episodes is
one of the most fascinatingcharacters is carmella she has.
She is so complicit in thislife.
(19:37):
As long as she gets, she getsher piece, that's it.
And you know we see early on, Ithink, in the pilot episode,
her going to the priest andshe's trying to kind of deal
with this guilt that she'sfeeling.
But in the end she sticks itout and she stays.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
She knows what's going on.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right, but she wants the house, she wants the money,
she wants all the jewelry Right,she wants the first, she wants
the cars.
And there's a really I don'tknow that off the top of my head
, the actor that plays the olderpsychiatrist that she goes to
at one point oh, it's PeterBogdanovich.
No, no, no, that's dr mel,that's melphy's doctor right
(20:19):
right this guy's in one episode,one scene with oh, I know who
you're talking about I don'tknow him either, no, and.
But he's the only one in theentire series that ever says to
her you, you got to get out ofthis.
Yeah, you're never going to beable to live with yourself.
What you're doing is wrong.
You know it's wrong?
Yep, and what he says verystrikingly.
(20:40):
One of the last things he saysis at least you can't say you
weren't told, that's right, Imean it's great that's a great
sequence, one I forgot, to behonest with you.
So seeing, you know, seeingthese sequences, because I
haven't watched this in a whileI'm talking pre-pandemic, so for
(21:01):
me, anytime I saw somethingfrom the show, I lit up, I was
like all in and you know what Ilike, that they did, that the
director gibney did was.
You know, once the uh intro, the, the intro, the, the title
sequence for the documentarykicks in, it's the.
You hear alabama three woke upthis morning theme song and
(21:23):
you're watching what you thinkis the opening of the sopranos,
right, but he kind of cuts itwith shots of david chase almost
mimicking that drive that tonytakes across the bridge back to
new jersey from new york.
And what I loved is at onepoint you see chase in the
passenger seat of this cardriving along and he looks out
(21:45):
at like satriales and there's,like you know, the, the big
pussy there, and and you know,silvio and the character, the
character.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
But yeah, I was gonna say the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
He made it seem like they were in the car together
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Having this conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
That was pretty well done.
It was also striking to me whenhe talked about getting the
call that James Gandolfini haddied and his response was I
wasn't surprised at all, no, hedidn't even hesitate to say no.
But I think again, you see thecondition that he was in now,
ironically, he dies in italy,which I thought that was kind of
(22:25):
ironic.
Um, and he was only 51, 51 yearsold now I don't know if you saw
his last two movies no, thedrop with tom hardy, right, and
enough said with julialouis-dreyfus, both good
performances, yeah, yeah, andnot great movies, but good
performances, no, you know youknow, not, I wouldn't, you know,
(22:49):
reject the movies, but it wasinteresting because a year
before he died he died in juneof 2013.
I think it was a year before.
This is another thing I foundinteresting was david chase
would have his first featuredirectorial debut with not fade
away with gandolfini, that'sright so it was nice that they
(23:12):
got a chance yeah, I got made.
Yeah see, I don't.
I've never seen that yeah, Iwasn't sure, when I saw starring
James Gandolfini I didn't knowif that had made it to you know
production.
Now, it's interesting because hewould be.
It's funny as, of thisrecording, we're coming up on
the um, what would have been his63rd birthday, which is, uh,
(23:39):
pretty amazing.
But it was a lot aboutgandalfini in the part two and
it was a lot about the demonsthat he was dealing, right, not
only it's again with thesubstance abuse and you talked
about the failed interventionthat they tried to set up, um
but also the again, the, the,the pressure, yeah, that was on
(23:59):
his shoulders to carry thisseries.
And what was interesting?
They point out at one pointthat they go into season six
which, as you know, most peopleknow it was 6A and 6B, as you
learn in the documentary.
Sniff them, because if they hadcalled it season seven, seven,
(24:19):
they would have had to give thecast a raise, right, because of
that fact, gandolfini, from hisown pocket, gave every cast
member thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Well, apparently not carmella.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, eating falco did she?
She's like he did what he gaveme.
I didn't get thirty thousand.
She's quick to say that soundslike him.
Yeah, but I'm sure it was likethe cast that were not like
prominent players, you know whatI mean.
No, they loved him.
But, it's an unblinking eye.
They don't put rose-coloredglasses on when they describe
him.
Even Chase, who did his eulogyhe starts the eulogy and this is
(24:57):
not normal by sayingno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
No, I didn't say that but I don't think that's
exactly what you said.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Eulogy no, I don't think you wanted to do that.
Nobody wants to know that.
It was very emotional.
He breaks down, I agree, Iagree, but again, even in that
he doesn't paint him like asaint no, because he wasn't
right, and nor are any of usright, right.
(25:52):
So I mean, but that was kind ofrefreshing to get the truth,
yeah, but I I just don't want toleave.
Our assessment of thisdocumentary is like james
ganolfini was some sort ofanimal or monster or something
no he was in many respects a avery gentle guy, but yeah, he
had his demons, like everybodyelse absolutely and the way he
(26:12):
prepared to play tony.
That was the steering wheeltill I didn't knuckles bled.
Yeah, I didn't quite know hewent to those lengths, right,
some of that stuff, but um, whatI didn't the thing I had the
most issue with.
Okay, now we we're not going toget into a whole conversation
about the ending of the seriesitself, which was very
controversial still is, to thisday, a lot of people still
(26:35):
pissed off about the ending, butright, it's a much more
satisfying description of it inthis documentary from Chase than
you might have ever heardbefore.
But I didn't like how hislongtime collaborator, the DP
Alex I can't think of his lastname, but they worked together
from the very beginning yeah, Iknow who you're talking about
(26:57):
and it was a huge help to chase,because chase didn't really
know what the hell he was doingas a director of the pilot
episode.
Right, he had never really, buthis.
The dp talks about this openending, this open end, and it's,
it's a resolution ofirresolution or something he was
(27:19):
trying to, I felt like, overlyjustify the fact that it just
abruptly ended and right it cutto black and nobody really liked
it right, but the truth is,like a lot of films or tv shows,
you have to decide.
It's up to you to decide whathappens next.
I was just in your hands.
(27:40):
Yeah, I was just as pissed aseverybody else, though I wanted
something other than that, but Ican appreciate that.
I can, and it was funny to hearthem say they were calling like
did did my tv go out to mike?
Because, I felt the same waywhen I watched it originally,
and it just goes to black.
I'm like, oh, man what?
A time to lose hbo right.
(28:01):
The cast was equally.
A lot of them were like what,the what?
is right, you know, and it wasfunny it's been, it's been
spoofed everywhere, like there'sa lot of uh, good family guy
references where you knowstewie's in the middle of
talking to brian and then itjust cuts to black, like when
they're talking about the, theseries.
But yeah, that's verycontroversial.
But I felt a little bit moresatisfied from chase's
(28:27):
discussion of it than I did fromwhat his dp was talking about,
as if you know, oh, it's just,oh, it's an open end and I think
, it's more like what you'resaying.
You fill in the blanks, butsomething about the way he was
describing it just bothered me.
Now we know they made a movie,the.
What was it?
(28:47):
The new saints?
Of many saints of newark, whichwe did an episode on.
But but chase is quick to pointout that really isn't a
soprano's no even though it wasthe candelfini's son playing him
as a younger version.
Right, but david chase didn'teven know they were going to put
that a soprano story tagline inthe title.
So let me ask you this if hehadn't died, would we have seen
(29:15):
a soprano's movie that heoriginally wanted to make?
I think we might have um, and Ifeel like steve sharippa talks
about this on the podcast.
At one point he played pauliewalnuts.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
No, no, no, he played bobby bacala, oh okay yeah, he
was heavy and he lost a lot ofweight throughout the series
yeah, he did.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
No, tony's uh, cerrico played yeah, tony,
cerrico.
Paulie walnuts yeah, who elsecould have played that role?
Yeah, the pine barons probablythe best episode of all of them.
I don't know if you can saythat, but it's one of the
greatest.
It's one of the most rememberedepisodes as well, but you know
(29:55):
I don't think they talked about.
You know, chase said how theywanted to shoot New Jersey and
it was unlike anything else withthe trees.
Hello, miller's Crossing Right,I felt like they didn't give a
shout out to Miller's Crossing.
That was due because I feltlike this I felt like this.
(30:16):
This series felt a lot likeMiller's Crossing.
You could plug in charactersObviously Buscemi's already in
there, Set in a totallydifferent time.
Yeah, but it's.
I don't see any comparisonthere whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Well, they're wise guys, Right?
That's all.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
But you have to.
I don't see the same.
You don't have a mob bossthat's struggling with
depression because of therelationship with his mother,
right, I'm just talking aboutthe look.
Think about the look, like youknow how they showed the sky and
through the trees, and then itwould come down to the leaves.
Miller's Crossing did that.
(30:55):
You know, I know, but Chase'sinfluences are taken from uh
filmmakers way before the coenbrothers.
He talks about uh godard and uhfelini, right, and uh, uh,
obviously kubrick with 2000,coppola, yeah, polanski with
chinatown.
That was interesting to hear.
(31:16):
Kubrick stuff was veryinteresting.
It was interesting very.
It's just wholerick stuff wasvery interesting.
It was interesting Very.
You know, that's one of thethings I would say is is is
worth watching.
There's this whole thing aboutthis, this um, they compare it
to this sequence in an episodethat Tony's going through where
he's he's like in a dream stateas another guy, right, and they
(31:39):
did that more than once he theydid that more than once in the
series where Tony would bewatching himself.
It's almost like an out of bodyexperience, yeah, where they
walk into their own POV Exactly,and it really experience.
Yeah, where they walk intotheir own pov exactly, and it
really.
I would have never picked up onthat, having watched the series
as many times as I have that,that technique that they were
(32:00):
using.
But, as you said, he wasconnecting it back to the
influence from 2001, which wasfascinating it was.
And then you know to see ajuxtaposition, you know
juxtaposition between the twoyeah, that was, that was really.
But he also talked about Coppolaand Scorsese and how they were
influenced as well.
Absolutely, but I this, justlike the ending of the series
(32:24):
itself.
This just wasn't satisfyingenough.
I it same thing.
It left me wanting more.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Well, I felt it was too short.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I watched it back and I could have watched another
two hours easily.
Yeah, me too.
But we're like hyper fans.
You know we're big fans of thisseries.
If, if you're not a fan of thesopranos, I would not recommend
this.
No, I, I, I guess, and, like Isaid, I mean if you're a casual
fan, I would would, but ifyou've never seen the Sopranos,
(32:55):
yeah, that wouldn't make anysense, right.
Plus, it's going to spoil allkinds of stuff for you.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I agree with that.
But you know what's interestingtoo, Through the casting
process, some of these peoplethat they found.
One that stood out to me wasthe woman who played Ginny Sack,
Ginny Sacramone, who had neveracted before.
She just dropped her headshot ina box and they called her and
boom, and she was fantastic andso natural on camera.
(33:23):
Right, this cast, from top tothe smallest role to the biggest
.
You can't give me one thatisn't fantastic.
Every single actor in theseries is phenomenal.
Totally agree with that.
Yeah, yeah, so I don't know.
I mean, like you said, maybethere's a disclaimer there to if
you're a sopranos fan, it'skind of a no-brainer.
(33:45):
Although I don't think you'regoing to walk away learning too
much more although you did, Idid you know, because I haven't
watched it in a while yeah, Itook away a few.
A few things too, and the stuffabout Gandolfini.
There's a heavy emphasis onthat in part two and it is
fascinating.
It's a bit sad at the same time.
That he was going through thestruggles that he was, and that
(34:08):
we lost him at such a young ageis just man he had a lot more
work in him.
He did, he did.
But at least you know he leavesbehind not just a legacy on
screen with this, but you knowagain how revolutionary this was
and just how much he owned thecharacter.
(34:29):
He was Tony Soprano and it wasinteresting because the way
chase approached it was seasonto season.
He would come into the writer'sroom with an arc yeah tony
episode 1, tony episode 13.
And it was up to the writers tofigure out how to go from there
to there.
(34:49):
Right, and that was prettyfascinating yeah, there's a
little.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
He was like well it's gonna end.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
When hbo tells me it's gonna end, yeah well, you
get canceled and that's the endof it right, which I'm glad that
is expecting it to keep going.
I wish we had more I I couldhave kept I could have watched
another hour easy, yeah, forsure, but uh, so I don't.
I don't know, uh, what you takeaway from this conversation
about it, if that's gonnaconvince you to watch it, or,
(35:15):
but if you have seen it, if youhave watched it, drop some
comments on the on the videohere and let us know what you
think of it.
And would you recommend it tosomebody who hasn't seen the
sopranos?
I tend to agree with you.
I think there's just too manyspoilers in it yeah so I think,
for that reason alone, dip, dipyour toe into the Sopranos pool
first, then watch Exactly.
If you haven't seen theSopranos man, there's a treat.
(35:37):
And if you like, at all mobmovies, absolutely Like
Goodfellas Godfather, you wantto watch this show, and then you
can take in the TalkingSopranos podcast as a companion
piece, which I still haven'tdone.
That, yeah, I'll continue.
I continue to watch theSopranos.
(35:58):
I'm constantly.
If I'm looking, if I'mstruggling to find something to
settle on, that's going tofulfill that.
You know, scratch that itch, Igo right to the Sopranos.
It would be it me right now,because I haven't seen it now,
seeing the documentary, knowingsome of the things I didn't know
well, this will give you anidea of my love of the show.
The documentary came outyesterday and I watched the
(36:22):
entire first season of sopranosyesterday before yeah, before
the documentary even aired, yeah, wow so.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
So it was like really fresh.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It's just easy to binge and you just now is the
pilot on hbo still, oh yeah yeahokay, and the pilot is like
again, right from the beginning,you're just, you're on board
with this thing and they had noidea they had.
You know, michael imperiolisays this is lightning in a
bottle and they no one reallyknew it until it happened, right
(36:56):
, right, and it was a bizarrekind of story that you know why
would anybody watch this.
This is something that had to beon HBO.
They couldn't have shot this ona network.
Well, this, but but see I?
This made hbo what it is.
Hbo as, as michael imperiolialso points out, it was kind of
(37:20):
bargain basement to be doingright at the time, although they
had the huge hit with larrysanders, which I found
interesting, they referenced itright they did kind of opened a
door to this sort of uh,filmmaking on television.
Yeah, that's a good point?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I think so, and there's another great series
right quality show, that yeahcould be on network.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Hey now, hey now.
Well, there you go, folks.
I don't know, watch it, don'twatch it.
If you watch it, let us knowwhat you think.
But anything, sopranos, I'mdown, although the many states
of newark.
I wouldn't recommend that film.
Yeah, you watch it.
Let us know what you think.
But anything Sopranos I'm down,Although the Many Saints of
Newark.
I wouldn't recommend that film.
Yeah, me either.
I don't own it.
Shockingly, and it's aboutDickie Moltisanti, so it isn't
even Right.
Played by another actor whodied young.
(38:07):
He was in Goodfellas Goodfellasoh my God Ray.
He was in goodfellas goodfellas, oh my god ray.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
No, no ray leota, ray leota he didn't play that
character.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
He was in the film.
He was, yes.
Well, there you go.
There's our commentary on thewise guy david chase and the
sopranos documentary.
It's currently streaming on max.
If you check it out, like Isaid, come back to the video and
drop some comments and let usknow what you think it's going
to do it for another episode ofthe Yo Brother podcast.
I'm your host, dan Smith.
Alongside me is always mypaisan, mike Smith, and we'll
(38:39):
see you next time.
Bye, everyone.
Welcome to the O'Brother Podcast with hosts Dan
and Mike Smith, brothers fromthe same mother with different
opinions on movies, tv, videogames and more plus celebrity
interviews.
Get ready, get set it's timefor the O'Brother Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the O'Brother Podcast.
I'm your host, dan Smith.
Alongside me is always mybrother from the same mother,
mike Smith.
How you doing tonight, dan?
Why do you always say that it?
Sounds so forced and fake howare you doing?
Tonight.
It's just it's.
I'm like seriously, how's itgoing tonight?
It just seems so, not you badabing all over your nice ivy lake
(00:42):
suit.
That's the Godfather, not theSopranos.
All right, so we're talkingabout this documentary that just
came out September 7th 2024,called Wise Guy, david Chase and
the Sopranos.
It's currently streaming on Max.
It's a two-part documentary andeach part is a little over.
It's about an hour and 15minutes, I'd say each part
(01:04):
roughly.
Yeah, it's an easy watch backto back.
Yeah, it's directed by AlexGibney.
Like you said, it's broken upinto two parts the first part
pretty much.
Just, really, you know a littlebit of background on David Chase
, yeah, and how you know how hecame to write the pilot of the
show, which was originally goingto be a feature film, right?
(01:25):
Um, and I wasn't sure, like yousaid in the very beginning,
this kind of weird they werelike cutting the interview in
with all of these clips andsound bites from his past and
gibney had him talking overhimself, almost as if he knew I
want to get through this quick,exactly, and about eight minutes
(01:48):
in, chase just wants to get upand leave, right, he's like I
hate doing this.
This is awful.
He has nothing good to say.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Well, he didn't say it was awful.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
He just doesn't clearly want to sit there be
talking about himself becausethe set is ironically very much
the same set as lorraine broccoand you know tony soprano, right
, dr melfi and dr melfi and tony, right.
So, yeah, it's about eightminutes into the documentary
(02:22):
part one, and chase wants to getup and leave because he's not
real keen on talking abouthimself and he doesn't.
What he says to the director isI didn't know it was going to
be so much about me, right, andI think that's a weakness.
I liked it, but I think therewas too much.
I didn't need to know that muchabout Chase.
(02:42):
I loved learning all the otherfacets, but that's what it's
about, right.
So I think that's what you haveto keep in mind.
Look at the title.
It's David Chase and the.
Sopranos.
Do you think it would have beenbetter if it was Wise Guys?
Or Look at the Sopranos.
No, no.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
With.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
David Chase?
No, no, because I think it wasabout David Chase again, which
is why it made him uncomfortable.
Now it didn't stay on that asintensely as it is in the very
beginning.
I mean, once you're 15, 20minutes in, he's basically
talking about the Sopranos atthat point.
But we got to figure out how weget there through his
(03:24):
background.
As a writer, I gotta show thisjesus.
I mean every.
No, this, this one episode.
It's got to be a thing ofphysical media.
Let me turn it over, folks.
I'll be back in a minute.
No, this is like 30 pounds.
No, kidding, right, you openthe bar, can you describe it for
those listening?
It's, it's, it's the soprano'soriginal box set.
(03:46):
When you open it, there's abook.
We're not, you're not going tounbox this.
No, I'm just showing you, justshow it how big it is, how it's
like 30 pounds, right, it's oneof those things it's not easy to
grab and and flip on.
I tend to just go to HBO, likeI said, but there's some
(04:07):
commentaries that are not on HBO, that are here.
Okay, so we're not talkingabout the documentary, so let's
get back to talking about thedocumentary.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But would you recommend this for somebody
who's never seen the Sopranos?
Yes, yes, but I wouldn'trecommend it for somebody like
me who knows everything aboutthe Sopranos and has watched the
Sopranos a thousand times overRight, I think you know like
I've watched.
When they aired, I had all thephysical discs.
(04:37):
I've since rewatched themnumerous times, a lot of that in
covid, like so many peopleduring the quarantine found the
Sopranos for the first time,really, cause this went off the
air in 2007.
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah,long gone.
And also, another thing relatedto the quarantine is Michael
(05:00):
and Perioli and Steve Schereppa.
They did a podcast calledTalking Sopranos Right, which
you can get.
Yeah, it's out there and it'son Max actually now too, exactly
the video version of it, andit's fantastic because they have
on a lot of the cast from overthe years.
They go through every singleepisode.
(05:21):
It's like 90 or 91 episodes,the podcast, and it's it's
really really good.
I would recommend it forsomebody that isn't familiar
with the Sopranos.
Really, I, I, I mean the sensethat, like I, I wouldn't want to
give spoiler alert.
I mean, you know, but not as,like hardcore fans.
There's nothing to, in myopinion, to learn from this that
(05:44):
you don't?
I thought I learned a lot.
Well, like what well, I didn'tknow how tough james gandolfini
was to work with, and I thinkthis is an unblinking.
I don't think that's a fairstatement well, they talk about,
you know, setting up anintervention for him this is way
(06:04):
they weren't really specificyeah, right, but this is way
late this is like season six,right and it wasn't like.
Yeah, it wasn't like it was inseason two, he's creating all
this drama.
I mean, I don't knowspecifically, obviously it
wasn't there, but I think theydon't cast this.
(06:24):
You know, paint this picturethat he was difficult to work
with from the jump.
I don't think that's fair.
I didn't get that.
Well, I mean, your buddy,little steven, says it was like
he, he wanted to quit every day.
That was like season two andthree.
Well, right, but that's justbecause of the pressure that he
was feeling as someone carryingthis series, because this thing
(06:48):
was a hit from the get-go, right, although it took a while and
this is something else I didn'tremember it took eight months
from pilot to show.
I think it was 18 months, wasit 18?
So I think it was 18 months.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's a long time yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Because I didn't realize it aired January 99.
It felt like earlier than that.
Yeah, me too, but they wereshooting, of course, before that
.
But yeah, I thought I was inlaw school when this aired and
it was post-law school, so thatwas kind of the measuring stick
for me.
(07:26):
I was, uh, I was just obsessedwith this when it was, when it
was out, you know.
I was from the from the get, gofrom the jump.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, yeah, and I and I and I've remained.
It's, it's my favorite show ofthis genre of all time, easily,
um, show of this genre of alltime easily, um, but yeah, I
mean what I?
I mean talking about gandalfini, so so you bring that up.
I mean I, I didn't reallyremember the degree to which he
(07:57):
was struggling, you know uh,obviously you saw him putting on
weight and you know some talkof some substance issues and so
forth, but I didn't realize tothe degree and, and you can see,
if you go online on youtube youcan see a lot of different
video clips of him getting intoit with different paparazzi and
(08:19):
people like, just like tonysoprano would.
They showed a little.
Yeah, and I think what'simportant to point out as they
do in the documentary, he wasnot Tony Soprano, he was not
like this at all.
Now, he grew up around and knewpeople like this from growing
up in New Jersey.
But when you heard him speak ininterviews which he didn't do,
(08:41):
a lot of them, in fact good luckfinding his full, one of his
only full length interviews with60 minutes.
I couldn't even find it onlineand I scoured YouTube for it.
But, um, he's very, umwell-spoken and very kind of you
know, uh how about the?
(09:02):
James Liptonpton interview.
Did you see that?
I didn't see it in full, but Ithink I'd seen it originally.
Yeah, there's, there's morefootage of that that you can
find.
Yeah, um, but you know he, hedidn't want to do like the late
night circuit, although he didappear like on saturday night
live once or twice.
He was in the at the news desk,I know.
(09:23):
Now, do you remember him priorto the sopranos?
I well, I don't know if I knewthat.
I knew him before, but did youknow?
Did you know that JamesGandolfini lived across the
street from one of our siblings?
At one point I had no idea.
(09:43):
Did you know that?
Hey, he didn't.
But this was kind of a wildnugget that I didn't know when I
was kind of looking up someinformation on his life.
He was good friends with JohnTravolta because their fathers
were friends when they wereyounger and travolta and
(10:04):
gandolfini did like five filmstogether, including get shorty,
and they also did a civil actionthat's right which was set in
our hometown correct, andgandolfini's character is a
character that lived across thestreet from the woman who was
the main character, who wasgoing after her attorney.
(10:25):
Travolta was going after thecity of wubern but because of
the water and the chemicals thatthe right tanneries were
dumping into the water there,which was giving people leukemia
and and so I forgot that he waseven in that film.
But the true romance isprobably the standout yeah
Performance for me of his at butbefore the Sopranos I bring up
(10:49):
the last castle with RobertRedford big role in that, and
the other one is the Coenbrothers movie.
Do you know which Coen Brothersmovie he was in?
No, I'll give you a hint DoubleIndemnity.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
He wasn't in it, it's a film noir, classic film noir.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Oh, the man who knew too much.
Yes, really he was his wife wasFrances McDormand Really, so he
got into it.
With what year would that havebeen I?
I was prior to, I think it was,it was maybe after miller's
(11:28):
crossing no, I remember thatperformance.
He gets oh yeah no, I'm sorry,the man who wasn't there.
I said the man who knew toomuch.
Isn't that hitchcock?
That's hitchcock.
The man who wasn't there 2001yeah, he played big dave
brewster.
Yeah, I don't.
I haven't seen that film inyears.
So, oh, it's a great that wasjust before the last castle
(11:48):
which so I I'm not sure, likeyou, if I knew him right at that
time or if I saw those moviesretroactively and then was like,
oh yeah, james, I forgot he wasin this.
Yeah, so this is a circle backto the documentary, so I don't
make it all about Gandolfini,but that first part is really
(12:09):
all about the casting Again, howit went from an original idea
for a feature film to a pilot ofa series.
Right, you know, that's a bigpart of that part one.
And then the casting you talkabout, like the seeing, the, the
auditions, right, the.
The biggest one was seeingsteve van zandt as tony.
(12:31):
Chase wanted him as tony, hedid and and he was.
It's hard to not see him assilvio now, but right, but I
could see where it would haveworked.
He just he had that kind ofcharisma and everything.
But HBO is like we're not goingto roll the dice on a guy.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
that's never acted before.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Never acted before.
Are you out of your mind?
He inducted the rascals intothe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
and you could tell he had actingchops.
He was putting on a performancewhen he inducted them.
And he did the same for davidchase.
Well, he was a performer onstage as a rock musician, which
(13:07):
that's entertainment.
That's correct.
You know, that's a differentkind of but it's a lot different
from playing a guitar andsinging to acting right, but he
was very much a ham and they'rein videos.
They're acting in videos in the80s and things you know.
So the other thing about thecast is this cast all knew each
(13:28):
other.
They were all you know in a lotof the same.
If you remember the film treeslounge, steve buscemi, look at
all the characters from thatthat are in the sopranos.
But I found it fascinating thefootage.
The footage was there wasn'tenough of that.
I would have, I agree, more ofthat.
(13:49):
And then you saw, you know,would be actors that were
auditioning for a part that theydidn't get, but then they ended
up in it as something else, asmaller role, somewhere Like
Drea de Mateo, I think.
Right, wasn't she originallycoming in for something else?
Well, she originally was justgoing to be the cocktail
waitress.
Then it became Christopher'slove interest, true, yeah, so
(14:14):
she was there, but not as apermanent fixture.
She was fantastic, yeah.
So I think that kind of sums upthe first part.
You get some background ondavid chase, right, how we get
into the, the business and allof that and how was the casting?
and and how.
It was just really all abouthis mother yeah his mother casts
a huge shadow over the Sopranos.
(14:38):
That I didn't really know.
That, oh really.
Yeah, I just heard that overthe years I've known that, yeah,
nancy Marchand is just wasbrilliant, then it is.
Sadly only gave us about a yearor so of a performance because
she died.
I was going to ask you.
I know she died between seasonsand there was unresolved issues
(15:00):
with her character and they didprobably the worst artificial
intelligence of all time.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
The technology wasn't great.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, at the time, yeah , they tried to superimpose her
face on another actress.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, it wasn't great .
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And it just didn't look right.
But what was interesting andyou, you, you hear it in the
documentary is that you know shewas dying and she basically
told david chase keep me working.
I don't correct I don't want tojust lay around on a hospital
bed and die, you know and Ithink she was just going to be
have a short part and be done,but then, like you said, at her
(15:41):
request and he says, I'm notgoing to say no to her yeah, so
you could see.
You know that she was ailing,she lost a lot of weight and but
she was still deliveringfantastic performances in it.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Then part two.
How would you describe part twoof the documentary?
I thought part two a lot covereda lot of james gandolfini yeah
it also focused a lot onlorraine bracco and her
character and how you know they.
She was going to be carmella,tony's wife, but she wanted to
be dr melfi.
As soon as she read the scriptshe's like this is what I want.
(16:22):
And it focused on certainepisodes.
It was a lot more episodecoverage in part two.
I thought, yeah, I wrote downwhat I thought was interesting
is, you know, the the.
The series is a hit out of thegate and so now it's all about
david.
Chase has to continue todeliver.
He doesn't expect this thing toto blow up like it does.
(16:44):
So now what is this show goingto become?
And he's, you know, he'sbasically locking himself away
with this small group of writers.
They had this very it wasinteresting this very trusting
relationship, to the point whereat one point in the documentary
, chase says we were going tobring an assistant into the room
with us, but we we realized wecouldn't do that because they
(17:06):
were talking about some veryright feeling things of their
own taboo things.
Yes, right, terence winter, oneof those writers who, if you
know, boardwalk empire, that'shim and he he's like he's doing
something that you're watchingright now phenomenal writer yeah
(17:26):
, he's a phenomenal.
Right, when you see his name onthe writing list you know you're
going to get a good.
But this cast, dan, is likefantastic, oh, it's great, and
you can't again.
You can't go back and pictureanybody else in those roles.
But what was interesting aboutit was, you know, the show
became this balance of whatChase talks about as, or
(17:50):
somebody's quoted in it assaying this you know, people
that were tuning in for a serialdrama versus people that were
tuning in for the kind of mobmafia side of it.
Right, less yakking, morewhacking.
They called it right and um andlike terrence winter says we and
I think it's true there mighthave been a few spots where they
(18:12):
went a little extreme, but Idon't.
I would say it's fair that theviolence wasn't gratuitous.
There was a reason for it and,as they point out, here's a
series that was revolutionary atthe time, especially for HBO.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
The networks all passed, correct Everybody passed
on it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
He brought it to every network that is being led
by an antihero, and so, as Ithink Terrence winter points out
at one at one, you know,segment um they.
Every now and then they wouldhave to just surprise and shock
the hell out of you, to reel youback into to, to, to get you to
realize okay, these are the,these are the characters that
(18:53):
you're rooting for.
Yes, but they right.
Yes, but they right, but theseare stone cold murderers, right?
You know, it's all fun andgames until you owe them money
or something right and all betsare off, so it's like watching
the godfather or goodfellas, forsome reason, yeah I'm gonna
make an offer again we'rerooting for the bad guys.
I want michael to become don.
(19:16):
I want michael to.
But one of the fascinatingthings is and steve shrippa says
this on the podcast at onepoint, one of the episodes is
one of the most fascinatingcharacters is carmella she has.
She is so complicit in thislife.
(19:37):
As long as she gets, she getsher piece, that's it.
And you know we see early on, Ithink, in the pilot episode,
her going to the priest andshe's trying to kind of deal
with this guilt that she'sfeeling.
But in the end she sticks itout and she stays.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
She knows what's going on.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Right, but she wants the house, she wants the money,
she wants all the jewelry Right,she wants the first, she wants
the cars.
And there's a really I don'tknow that off the top of my head
, the actor that plays the olderpsychiatrist that she goes to
at one point oh, it's PeterBogdanovich.
No, no, no, that's dr mel,that's melphy's doctor right
(20:19):
right this guy's in one episode,one scene with oh, I know who
you're talking about I don'tknow him either, no, and.
But he's the only one in theentire series that ever says to
her you, you got to get out ofthis.
Yeah, you're never going to beable to live with yourself.
What you're doing is wrong.
You know it's wrong?
Yep, and what he says verystrikingly.
(20:40):
One of the last things he saysis at least you can't say you
weren't told, that's right, Imean it's great that's a great
sequence, one I forgot, to behonest with you.
So seeing, you know, seeingthese sequences, because I
haven't watched this in a whileI'm talking pre-pandemic, so for
(21:01):
me, anytime I saw somethingfrom the show, I lit up, I was
like all in and you know what Ilike, that they did, that the
director gibney did was.
You know, once the uh intro, the, the intro, the, the title
sequence for the documentarykicks in, it's the.
You hear alabama three woke upthis morning theme song and
(21:23):
you're watching what you thinkis the opening of the sopranos,
right, but he kind of cuts itwith shots of david chase almost
mimicking that drive that tonytakes across the bridge back to
new jersey from new york.
And what I loved is at onepoint you see chase in the
passenger seat of this cardriving along and he looks out
(21:45):
at like satriales and there's,like you know, the, the big
pussy there, and and you know,silvio and the character, the
character.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
But yeah, I was gonna say the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
He made it seem like they were in the car together
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Having this conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
That was pretty well done.
It was also striking to me whenhe talked about getting the
call that James Gandolfini haddied and his response was I
wasn't surprised at all, no, hedidn't even hesitate to say no.
But I think again, you see thecondition that he was in now,
ironically, he dies in italy,which I thought that was kind of
(22:25):
ironic.
Um, and he was only 51, 51 yearsold now I don't know if you saw
his last two movies no, thedrop with tom hardy, right, and
enough said with julialouis-dreyfus, both good
performances, yeah, yeah, andnot great movies, but good
performances, no, you know youknow, not, I wouldn't, you know,
(22:49):
reject the movies, but it wasinteresting because a year
before he died he died in juneof 2013.
I think it was a year before.
This is another thing I foundinteresting was david chase
would have his first featuredirectorial debut with not fade
away with gandolfini, that'sright so it was nice that they
(23:12):
got a chance yeah, I got made.
Yeah see, I don't.
I've never seen that yeah, Iwasn't sure, when I saw starring
James Gandolfini I didn't knowif that had made it to you know
production.
Now, it's interesting because hewould be.
It's funny as, of thisrecording, we're coming up on
the um, what would have been his63rd birthday, which is, uh,
(23:39):
pretty amazing.
But it was a lot aboutgandalfini in the part two and
it was a lot about the demonsthat he was dealing, right, not
only it's again with thesubstance abuse and you talked
about the failed interventionthat they tried to set up, um
but also the again, the, the,the pressure, yeah, that was on
(23:59):
his shoulders to carry thisseries.
And what was interesting?
They point out at one pointthat they go into season six
which, as you know, most peopleknow it was 6A and 6B, as you
learn in the documentary.
Sniff them, because if they hadcalled it season seven, seven,
(24:19):
they would have had to give thecast a raise, right, because of
that fact, gandolfini, from hisown pocket, gave every cast
member thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Well, apparently not carmella.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, eating falco did she?
She's like he did what he gaveme.
I didn't get thirty thousand.
She's quick to say that soundslike him.
Yeah, but I'm sure it was likethe cast that were not like
prominent players, you know whatI mean.
No, they loved him.
But, it's an unblinking eye.
They don't put rose-coloredglasses on when they describe
him.
Even Chase, who did his eulogyhe starts the eulogy and this is
(24:57):
not normal by sayingno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
No, I didn't say that but I don't think that's
exactly what you said.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Eulogy no, I don't think you wanted to do that.
Nobody wants to know that.
It was very emotional.
He breaks down, I agree, Iagree, but again, even in that
he doesn't paint him like asaint no, because he wasn't
right, and nor are any of usright, right.
(25:52):
So I mean, but that was kind ofrefreshing to get the truth,
yeah, but I I just don't want toleave.
Our assessment of thisdocumentary is like james
ganolfini was some sort ofanimal or monster or something
no he was in many respects a avery gentle guy, but yeah, he
had his demons, like everybodyelse absolutely and the way he
(26:12):
prepared to play tony.
That was the steering wheeltill I didn't knuckles bled.
Yeah, I didn't quite know hewent to those lengths, right,
some of that stuff, but um, whatI didn't the thing I had the
most issue with.
Okay, now we we're not going toget into a whole conversation
about the ending of the seriesitself, which was very
controversial still is, to thisday, a lot of people still
(26:35):
pissed off about the ending, butright, it's a much more
satisfying description of it inthis documentary from Chase than
you might have ever heardbefore.
But I didn't like how hislongtime collaborator, the DP
Alex I can't think of his lastname, but they worked together
from the very beginning yeah, Iknow who you're talking about
(26:57):
and it was a huge help to chase,because chase didn't really
know what the hell he was doingas a director of the pilot
episode.
Right, he had never really, buthis.
The dp talks about this openending, this open end, and it's,
it's a resolution ofirresolution or something he was
(27:19):
trying to, I felt like, overlyjustify the fact that it just
abruptly ended and right it cutto black and nobody really liked
it right, but the truth is,like a lot of films or tv shows,
you have to decide.
It's up to you to decide whathappens next.
I was just in your hands.
(27:40):
Yeah, I was just as pissed aseverybody else, though I wanted
something other than that, but Ican appreciate that.
I can, and it was funny to hearthem say they were calling like
did did my tv go out to mike?
Because, I felt the same waywhen I watched it originally,
and it just goes to black.
I'm like, oh, man what?
A time to lose hbo right.
(28:01):
The cast was equally.
A lot of them were like what,the what?
is right, you know, and it wasfunny it's been, it's been
spoofed everywhere, like there'sa lot of uh, good family guy
references where you knowstewie's in the middle of
talking to brian and then itjust cuts to black, like when
they're talking about the, theseries.
But yeah, that's verycontroversial.
But I felt a little bit moresatisfied from chase's
(28:27):
discussion of it than I did fromwhat his dp was talking about,
as if you know, oh, it's just,oh, it's an open end and I think
, it's more like what you'resaying.
You fill in the blanks, butsomething about the way he was
describing it just bothered me.
Now we know they made a movie,the.
What was it?
(28:47):
The new saints?
Of many saints of newark, whichwe did an episode on.
But but chase is quick to pointout that really isn't a
soprano's no even though it wasthe candelfini's son playing him
as a younger version.
Right, but david chase didn'teven know they were going to put
that a soprano story tagline inthe title.
So let me ask you this if hehadn't died, would we have seen
(29:15):
a soprano's movie that heoriginally wanted to make?
I think we might have um, and Ifeel like steve sharippa talks
about this on the podcast.
At one point he played pauliewalnuts.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
No, no, no, he played bobby bacala, oh okay yeah, he
was heavy and he lost a lot ofweight throughout the series
yeah, he did.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
No, tony's uh, cerrico played yeah, tony,
cerrico.
Paulie walnuts yeah, who elsecould have played that role?
Yeah, the pine barons probablythe best episode of all of them.
I don't know if you can saythat, but it's one of the
greatest.
It's one of the most rememberedepisodes as well, but you know
(29:55):
I don't think they talked about.
You know, chase said how theywanted to shoot New Jersey and
it was unlike anything else withthe trees.
Hello, miller's Crossing Right,I felt like they didn't give a
shout out to Miller's Crossing.
That was due because I feltlike this I felt like this.
(30:16):
This series felt a lot likeMiller's Crossing.
You could plug in charactersObviously Buscemi's already in
there, Set in a totallydifferent time.
Yeah, but it's.
I don't see any comparisonthere whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Well, they're wise guys, Right?
That's all.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
But you have to.
I don't see the same.
You don't have a mob bossthat's struggling with
depression because of therelationship with his mother,
right, I'm just talking aboutthe look.
Think about the look, like youknow how they showed the sky and
through the trees, and then itwould come down to the leaves.
Miller's Crossing did that.
(30:55):
You know, I know, but Chase'sinfluences are taken from uh
filmmakers way before the coenbrothers.
He talks about uh godard and uhfelini, right, and uh, uh,
obviously kubrick with 2000,coppola, yeah, polanski with
chinatown.
That was interesting to hear.
(31:16):
Kubrick stuff was veryinteresting.
It was interesting very.
It's just wholerick stuff wasvery interesting.
It was interesting Very.
You know, that's one of thethings I would say is is is
worth watching.
There's this whole thing aboutthis, this um, they compare it
to this sequence in an episodethat Tony's going through where
he's he's like in a dream stateas another guy, right, and they
(31:39):
did that more than once he theydid that more than once in the
series where Tony would bewatching himself.
It's almost like an out of bodyexperience, yeah, where they
walk into their own POV Exactly,and it really experience.
Yeah, where they walk intotheir own pov exactly, and it
really.
I would have never picked up onthat, having watched the series
as many times as I have that,that technique that they were
(32:00):
using.
But, as you said, he wasconnecting it back to the
influence from 2001, which wasfascinating it was.
And then you know to see ajuxtaposition, you know
juxtaposition between the twoyeah, that was, that was really.
But he also talked about Coppolaand Scorsese and how they were
influenced as well.
Absolutely, but I this, justlike the ending of the series
(32:24):
itself.
This just wasn't satisfyingenough.
I it same thing.
It left me wanting more.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Well, I felt it was too short.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I watched it back and I could have watched another
two hours easily.
Yeah, me too.
But we're like hyper fans.
You know we're big fans of thisseries.
If, if you're not a fan of thesopranos, I would not recommend
this.
No, I, I, I guess, and, like Isaid, I mean if you're a casual
fan, I would would, but ifyou've never seen the Sopranos,
(32:55):
yeah, that wouldn't make anysense, right.
Plus, it's going to spoil allkinds of stuff for you.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I agree with that.
But you know what's interestingtoo, Through the casting
process, some of these peoplethat they found.
One that stood out to me wasthe woman who played Ginny Sack,
Ginny Sacramone, who had neveracted before.
She just dropped her headshot ina box and they called her and
boom, and she was fantastic andso natural on camera.
(33:23):
Right, this cast, from top tothe smallest role to the biggest
.
You can't give me one thatisn't fantastic.
Every single actor in theseries is phenomenal.
Totally agree with that.
Yeah, yeah, so I don't know.
I mean, like you said, maybethere's a disclaimer there to if
you're a sopranos fan, it'skind of a no-brainer.
(33:45):
Although I don't think you'regoing to walk away learning too
much more although you did, Idid you know, because I haven't
watched it in a while yeah, Itook away a few.
A few things too, and the stuffabout Gandolfini.
There's a heavy emphasis onthat in part two and it is
fascinating.
It's a bit sad at the same time.
That he was going through thestruggles that he was, and that
(34:08):
we lost him at such a young ageis just man he had a lot more
work in him.
He did, he did.
But at least you know he leavesbehind not just a legacy on
screen with this, but you knowagain how revolutionary this was
and just how much he owned thecharacter.
(34:29):
He was Tony Soprano and it wasinteresting because the way
chase approached it was seasonto season.
He would come into the writer'sroom with an arc yeah tony
episode 1, tony episode 13.
And it was up to the writers tofigure out how to go from there
to there.
(34:49):
Right, and that was prettyfascinating yeah, there's a
little.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
He was like well it's gonna end.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
When hbo tells me it's gonna end, yeah well, you
get canceled and that's the endof it right, which I'm glad that
is expecting it to keep going.
I wish we had more I I couldhave kept I could have watched
another hour easy, yeah, forsure, but uh, so I don't.
I don't know, uh, what you takeaway from this conversation
about it, if that's gonnaconvince you to watch it, or,
(35:15):
but if you have seen it, if youhave watched it, drop some
comments on the on the videohere and let us know what you
think of it.
And would you recommend it tosomebody who hasn't seen the
sopranos?
I tend to agree with you.
I think there's just too manyspoilers in it yeah so I think,
for that reason alone, dip, dipyour toe into the Sopranos pool
first, then watch Exactly.
If you haven't seen theSopranos man, there's a treat.
(35:37):
And if you like, at all mobmovies, absolutely Like
Goodfellas Godfather, you wantto watch this show, and then you
can take in the TalkingSopranos podcast as a companion
piece, which I still haven'tdone.
That, yeah, I'll continue.
I continue to watch theSopranos.
(35:58):
I'm constantly.
If I'm looking, if I'mstruggling to find something to
settle on, that's going tofulfill that.
You know, scratch that itch, Igo right to the Sopranos.
It would be it me right now,because I haven't seen it now,
seeing the documentary, knowingsome of the things I didn't know
well, this will give you anidea of my love of the show.
The documentary came outyesterday and I watched the
(36:22):
entire first season of sopranosyesterday before yeah, before
the documentary even aired, yeah, wow so.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
So it was like really fresh.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It's just easy to binge and you just now is the
pilot on hbo still, oh yeah yeahokay, and the pilot is like
again, right from the beginning,you're just, you're on board
with this thing and they had noidea they had.
You know, michael imperiolisays this is lightning in a
bottle and they no one reallyknew it until it happened, right
(36:56):
, right, and it was a bizarrekind of story that you know why
would anybody watch this.
This is something that had to beon HBO.
They couldn't have shot this ona network.
Well, this, but but see I?
This made hbo what it is.
Hbo as, as michael imperiolialso points out, it was kind of
(37:20):
bargain basement to be doingright at the time, although they
had the huge hit with larrysanders, which I found
interesting, they referenced itright they did kind of opened a
door to this sort of uh,filmmaking on television.
Yeah, that's a good point?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I think so, and there's another great series
right quality show, that yeahcould be on network.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Hey now, hey now.
Well, there you go, folks.
I don't know, watch it, don'twatch it.
If you watch it, let us knowwhat you think.
But anything, sopranos, I'mdown, although the many states
of newark.
I wouldn't recommend that film.
Yeah, you watch it.
Let us know what you think.
But anything Sopranos I'm down,Although the Many Saints of
Newark.
I wouldn't recommend that film.
Yeah, me either.
I don't own it.
Shockingly, and it's aboutDickie Moltisanti, so it isn't
even Right.
Played by another actor whodied young.
(38:07):
He was in Goodfellas Goodfellasoh my God Ray.
He was in goodfellas goodfellas, oh my god ray.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
No, no ray leota, ray leota he didn't play that
character.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
He was in the film.
He was, yes.
Well, there you go.
There's our commentary on thewise guy david chase and the
sopranos documentary.
It's currently streaming on max.
If you check it out, like Isaid, come back to the video and
drop some comments and let usknow what you think it's going
to do it for another episode ofthe Yo Brother podcast.
I'm your host, dan Smith.
Alongside me is always mypaisan, mike Smith, and we'll
(38:39):
see you next time.
Bye, everyone.
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