Conversation 36 - Who Are We As Counselors & How Do We Prove It - Ohio Counseling Conversations

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations.
Today we're honored to be joinedby Carmela Hill, a licensed
professional clinical counselorwith supervising credentials and
the current president of theOhio Counseling Association.
Carmela serves as the directorof counseling services at a
private university in NortheastOhio and brings over 20 years of
experience in the mental healthfield, working with individuals

(01:04):
across the lifespan in a widerange of settings, from
community mental health agenciesto private practice.
In addition to her leadershiproles, Carmela is a passionate
educator and advocate throughher counseling and training
business, empowered to helpservices.
She provides workshops andseminars on cultural diversity,
leadership, and professionaldevelopment, helping teams and

(01:24):
organizations create moreinclusive and effective
environments.
She also teaches as an adjunctfaculty member at two
universities in Northeast Ohio,guiding the next generation of
counselors in both practice andidentity.
In this episode, we'll talk withCarmela about cultural
diversity, supervision, andleadership, and dive into the
importance of professional andcounselor identity, what it

(01:46):
means, why it matters, and howwe as counselors can better
articulate who we are and whatwe do.
So sit back, relax, and getready for an insightful
conversation with one of Ohio'sleading voices in counseling,
Carmela Hill.
We are so excited today towelcome Carmela Hill, current
president of the Ohio CounselingAssociation.
Carmela, you have such a wealthof knowledge and a clear passion

(02:07):
for counseling.
What inspired you to pursueleadership in OCA and how does
stepping into the role ofpresident align with your
personal and professionaljourney?

SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
Well, first, thank you for providing this
opportunity to share.
I really appreciate that.
And, you know, I've beenconnected with OCA since
approximately 2005, roughly.
I've had the opportunity tobegin my leadership in
counseling as the OCA secretary,actually.
And it was under Dr.
Cynthia Osborne, who appointedme to that position under her

(02:38):
presidency in 2005.
And it was, you know, then Ibegan to develop my love for
leadership and service withinthe counseling profession.
And as they say, the rest ishistory in a lot of ways.
But, you know, further on withmy leadership within OCA, some
of the other things that I hadthe opportunity to do was be
involved in OA Cervic.

(02:59):
I was also involved in OAMCD aswell as EOCA.
And so all of these things Ibelieve really prepare me to be
president because many of thosepositions in those organ those
divisions, I was actually apresident in those divisions, in
addition to other positions aswell.
So I believe these really helpshape and form and kind of um

(03:21):
bring me to the point where I amin OCA.
But then also leadershipopportunities and things of that
nature outside of the counselorprofession as well, together has
brought me to this point ofbeing able to be the president
of the OCA.

SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
It's wonderful.
It sounds like this has been along journey and one that we're
so excited to join you on.
Yes.
You've identified cultureengagement, competence,
wellness, and empowerment as keyfocus areas for your presidency.
What do these priorities mean toyou personally?
And why do you believe they'retimely for Ohio counselors?

SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, culture engagementis so important.
You know, we're all unique inour diverse backgrounds and our
experiences.
We're unique in how we provideand carry out various services
and you know, the differentexperiences we have, it really
empowers us.
When we're able to connect withone another, we're able to learn

(04:18):
about those diverse experiencesand it empowers us and enlighten
us, and it really helps tounderstand who people are and it
brings us together despite ourdifferences.
And so for me, connecting acrossOhio is important, particularly
because during this time insociety we know things are going
on, but that continuedengagement, it helps to build

(04:38):
togetherness.
It's really paramount, it'svital that we maintain that
unity, that connection amongsteach other.
Uh, so that's one piece that'svery important.
The I the thought and focusareas of competence, wellness,
and empowerment.
These are key principlesactually of OCA's overall
mission and vision.
And so if I could state some ofthe key OCA statement, basically

(05:00):
is that OCA is motivated by ourdedication to wellness and
education.
We seek to promote, to connect,and encourage all of our members
through leadership, networking,mentoring, advocacy, and
professional development.
So OCA, we are committed tobuilding better lives in our

(05:20):
workplaces and communitiestogether across Ohio.
So these focus areas ofengagement, or in essence,
connection, competence,wellness, and empowerment are
just really being highlightedduring my presidency to remind
us of our focus, to remind us ofour vision.
So these are very vital that Ibelieve are important for us to

(05:40):
pay attention to.

SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Yeah, I love that.
I think culture diversity andengagement is something that we
think about a lot on the podcastand also just kind of in my own
personal practice.
And so it's been nice that we'vebeen able to kind of bring those
to the forefront a little morebecause they are so timely in
the state.

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
They are, they really are.

SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
How do you see OCA's role in strengthening cultural
engagement and collaborationacross Ohio's communities?
Because we are a very diversestate.

SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
Right.
We are, and that's the wonderfulthing about us because we're so
diverse across the state,different cities, you know,
different counties, things ofthat nature, and different
populations and cultures withinthose cities and those counties.
And so I enjoy, in general,learning about cultures and
learning about groups,regardless of the setting.
And so I I try my best to teachand to train that extensively on

(06:34):
the topic of cultural diversity.
So in our current challenges,external to the counseling
profession, is important for usmore than ever, I would say,
more than ever, to promoteunity, to continue to engage
culturally, support those thatare impacted by the various
changes that we're experiencingto our profession.
And so the clients we serve,they're affected by these

(06:56):
changes.
And as counselors, we canadvocate for them in ways that
they may not be able to.
And so understanding theircultural challenges will help us
to, if you will, foster thathope.
I love the word hope.
It really foster that hope inthem and help us to continue to
strengthen that counselor-clientrelationship.
So it's just very importantthere.

(07:17):
And I believe within OCA, youknow, we think about connecting
and collaborating, like amongstour chapters and our divisions
that we have within OCA, thatreally just strengthens, if you
will, the culture engagementacross Ohio.
So we're able to provideprograms and all of those things
to meet the diversity of ourcounselors as well as the
clients that we serve.

(07:37):
So to me, it just brings it alltogether and strengthens it even
more.

SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
Yeah, I think diversity is so beautiful in
that it encompasses so much morethan what maybe immediately
comes to mind.

SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
You know, there even outside of gender, race,
socioeconomic status, thingslike that, it's also like, do
you live in a more rural area ofthe state?
Do you live in a city?
Um, how does that change yourpractice?
Um, with those in those thingsin mind, what are some practical
ways any counselors orcounselors in training listening
today can integrate culturalresponsiveness into their daily

(08:12):
practice?

SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Oh, that's a great question.
And when I think about beingintentional in our daily
practice, so for me, beingaware, I mean, it starts with
truly awareness and beingpresent with our clients.
And so in the here and now, sobeing aware of how we're
feeling, how things we'reexperiencing in our own lives,
but also being aware of thevarious things that our clients

(08:34):
are experiencing, you know,because they're coming with us,
coming to us with heavy things.
You know, they're coming to uswith, you know, matters and
issues that are important tothem and viral to them.
And so we're helping tounderstand what those things
are.
And so if we can hear them,maybe hear what they're not
telling us, what they're notsaying, you know, beyond maybe

(08:55):
the the words, but maybe theirfacial expression or their body
language, things like that.
So what are they communicatingto us that perhaps they're not
verbally saying?
And so for me, being culturallyresponsive is can I pay
attention to that?
You know, can I tap into whatI'm seeing that they're not
saying?
And so if I can reflect on maybethe cultural challenges they may

(09:17):
be experiencing, and this may beaccomplished by sometimes really
just checking in with them onmatters that may be uh impacting
them externally.
So for instance, if there'sthings in media or there are
things in the news, check inwith them and say, Well, you
know, I know this is somethingthat you may experience or deal
with.
How are you doing today withthat?
How was you know, those kinds ofthings, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
Yeah, that's such an interesting idea of like what
they aren't saying.
Yes.
I see a lot of kids in mypractice, and a lot of times it
is what they're not saying.
It's usually, I have a kid whousually comes in and they want
to tell me everything thathappened at school, like to the
minute.
Like I'm learning the mathproblems, and I'm like the war

(10:00):
of 1812.
I had a great lesson on a coupleweeks ago.
And they they came in the lasttime I saw them, and they didn't
have anything to say aboutschool.
And and it was very strange, andthey they they're a little bit
of a quiet kid, too.
And so with with them, they havetrouble kind of like translating
brain to mouth sometimes, and sowe do a lot of nonverbal stuff,

(10:22):
and their family is actuallyvery quiet as well, and so
that's it's just like theculture in their family is like
they're very quiet, likecourteous people to each other.
They they do a lot of likeintrospective activities and
things at home as opposed tolike housing and play, and so we
do a lot of like collages andsand tray and checkers and and

(10:42):
things like that.
And so I think that culturalresponsiveness can be so
transformative for clients insessions when they have troubles
like that.

SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
Absolutely.
It sounds just like the thingsthat I was thinking about with
um another culturally responsivekind of daily practice is our
our interventions.
So clearly, right there, theintervention you're using is
really gonna engage with thatclient much better, you know,
and really gonna get tounderstand them.
So for me, utilizing those, youknow, interventions that are
gonna be helpful for engagingwith our clients, you know, and

(11:14):
really getting them, gettingthem to speak to us and talk to
us and give us information, thatkind of thing that again, they
may not otherwise share if wedidn't utilize that intervention
or strategy, you know?
And I think about also askingour clients, how can we help
them?
You know, like have we have toactually stop and said, you
know, how can we be a help toyou as a profession, you know?

(11:37):
And this may or may not includeus individually doing something,
but collectively as aprofession, how can we come
together as a group of peoplewho are wanting to have our
clients have a better life, youknow?
So what can we do as aprofession to help support them?
So, yeah, very key things.

SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yeah, I think that makes me think of another
question that we had kind ofprepared for today, which is
like we were talking a lot.
I know with the conference itwas one of the key themes, and
also just something you'reemphasizing, like equipping
counselors and enhancing ourskills and competence.
Is there an area or something onthe horizon that Ohio counselors

(12:19):
need in order to grow right now?

SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
I would say, you know, of course, being that
always being mindful of culturalcompetence and the importance
of, you know, learning people,understanding people beyond some
of the things we see mostimmediately, like you stated,
such as, you know, gender, youknow, race, ethnicity, things
like that, but other culturaldimensions and things that are

(12:42):
really challenging people orthey're experiencing challenges
in those various areas.
So I think continuing to havethat conversation, engagement,
and competence around that isimportant because you're gonna
deal with clients all the timefrom a diverse background
backgrounds, diverseexperiences, things of that
nature.
And overall, competence ingeneral is so important for our

(13:03):
profession because we're beingchallenged externally about what
we do.
You know, who are counselors?
Oh, you're just sittinglistening to people, things like
that, or you know, we're notsimply just listeners, you know?
Like we are practitioners whoare using evidence-based
practices, we are individualsand groups that are using
theories and practices andinterventions to help guide the

(13:26):
work that we do, you know.
So being able to continue tobuild that competence, learning
what's the advanced knowledge,you know, what's what are some
of the advanced practices thatare out there?
You know, how do we look at AI?
Things like that.
And you know, no one wants toreally touch the AI topic, but
really we can use it to ourbenefit, you know, in session or

(13:46):
things like that.
So I think about things that maybe nervous for us or maybe we're
concerned about, let's use it toour advantage.
Let's learn about it, you know.
If it's something that's newthat seems to be trending, let's
see what we can do with it.
You never know.
So I think advancing ourknowledge base, continue to
expand our knowledge base isimportant.

(14:07):
In essence, we are faced withquestions about the benefits of
counseling and the results andthe outcomes.
And so continue to find waysthat we can show forth outcomes
is gonna be helpful to us,whether that's measures,
assessments, tools, things likethat, that's gonna show things

(14:28):
are changing with ourindividuals, you know?
And so being able to see thatchange across time is gonna be
helpful.

SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
I think that was such a good point about the
external challenges and why ourcompetency is so important in
times like these.
We recently did an episode withChase, who's of course is the
president-elect of OCA about thechild details in our Supreme
Court case and the argument thatcounseling or mental health care
in general is is free speech andjust talking.

(14:56):
And I think that obviouslythere's more information.
We don't have to go too in depthon this today, but I just that's
what I was thinking about whileyou were talking about those
external challenges and why it'sso important for us to have our
competencies and our counseloridentities and being able to say
who we are, what we do, the thethought process and the ethics
behind what we do, and that is Ithink so important right now.

(15:20):
Absolutely.
Not just in Ohio, butnationally.

SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Naturally, absolutely, and it's impacting
all of us everywhere.
And, you know, to the point ofthe external challenges,
sometimes we do have toreiterate to people who we are.
You know, like we know who weare and what we do, but being
able to express that to otherpeople so that they're aware of
that is gonna be crucial for us.
And so I always oftentimesindicate to people, you know,

(15:44):
we're different from, say,someone's best friend being told
the same information, or, youknow, maybe their barber or
their local, you know,bartender.
I don't know.
But we're different from thoseindividuals in that we have
these prescriptive ways and youknow, interventions and skills
and things like that that a layperson may not necessarily have.

SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Yeah, and I think even differentiating counseling
from the other mental healthhelping professions as well.

SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yes, very important.
So good, so important.

SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
I hate to go off script a little bit, but what do
you think identifies us ascounselors, or what do you think
are some of the cornerstonesthat help with that
differentiation?

SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
I think for sure the skills and the theoretical
perspectives that we use,because we're using those as a
frame of reference.
Like they're our guide, they areour marker, if you will.
And it may not necessarily bethat our clients fit in these
nice boxes or you know, thosekinds of things, but overall,
we're able to help them with theskills that we're using.

(16:46):
And so, you know, the questionsthat we're asking, you know,
we're being intentional aboutthose questions.
We're probing, we're, you know,intentional about our follow-up
questions, things like that thatpeople may not think about.
You know, sometimes when I'mworking with people in session
and I may ask a question, it'slike, you know, I never thought
about that.
Or no one's ever asked me thatquestion, or hmm, that's

(17:07):
something interesting, you know.
I mean, it really helps them tolook at themselves and say, wow,
let me take a look.
Hmm, I never thought about that,but here's my first reaction to
that, you know, and so I thinkit helps to dig a little bit
deeper with our clients, butwe're able to utilize that with
our theories and our practicesand things like that, our
knowledge base that we have.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one of my favoritethings that clients can say to
me is, I don't know.
Yes, I've never thought aboutthat.

SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, because then that givesthem work in today.
Right, and it gives them anopportunity to explore, you
know, maybe an area that theydid not know or maybe make
connections.
I think about that too, where insession we're making here and
now present, you know,connections.
You know, when clients havethose aha moments, I love those,

(17:55):
you know, of like, wow, youknow, and they're just sitting
there, you know.
So I think it's just a greatopportunity.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think one of theother strengths of our
profession, at least in myexperience and and in my
practice, is mentorship and howconnected Ohio counselors are,
whether it's through OCA oreducational institutions or our
community mental health centersor our practices.

(18:26):
And I know this is one of yourbig passions.
What role do does mentoring oreven networking and professional
organizations like OCA play inshaping counselor identity?

SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Well, I think these things play a significant role
in shaping our counseloridentity.
You know, these are the thingsthat when I think about
networking and mentoring andprofessional organizations in
general, I think aboutsupervision.
I think about collaborationwithin and even withouts or
outside of our counselingprofession as well, because

(18:57):
we're having to connect withothers who are not necessarily
counselors or within thecounseling profession, but we
need them to be able to assistthe work that we do with
clients.
And so I also think about beingconnected to others that are in
a professional organization.
So it creates this, if you will,a sense of culture, a sense of
unity, a sense of support one toanother across our settings,

(19:19):
across our specialties, thingslike that.
So for me, you know, thementoring, networking, and being
connected to an organization isvital to your survival, I think,
as a counselor, because we'renot meant to be islands on our
own naturally.
And likewise, even within anorganization or profession,
we're not to meant to be, we'renot meant to be, if you will,

(19:40):
islands by ourselves doing thiswork.
So we're working together,strengthening one another,
encouraging one another, butalso helping one another.
So that consultation, you know,being able to say, hey, I don't
know or I don't have theinformation, but let me ask a
colleague, let me ask a peer,you know, let me ask a previous
supervisor or previous, youknow, person I work with or

(20:01):
something like that.
So I think it really builds aconnection amongst our
profession if we're using thatopportunity to mentor one
another, to be able to assistone another, to grow, to
develop, you know, and tofurther advance together, you
know.
So those things are importantwhen we're making sure that we
stay uh strengthened andencouraged amongst our

(20:22):
profession.
And so networking is huge.
You never know, and this isnetworking within the profession
as well as outside theprofession.
Again, we don't know who, wedon't know everything, but we
connect with others so that wecan gain that information.

SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you have any formativememories of mentoring or
networking that stand out to youthrough your journey?

SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
Yes, I absolutely have several, you know,
opportunities where I hadmentors or previous supervisor,
I've had great supervisors, andyou know, Dr.
Cynthia Osborne was a greatmentor when I was going through
my doctoral studies and thingsof that nature, and I really
appreciate her willingness toshare what she knew, but also
her intentionality withdeveloping leaders behind her.

(21:06):
And so being able to bring usalongside of her, get us
involved in presentations, getus involved in maybe co-teaching
a class or something like that,getting involved in the service
and the profession itself.
And so that just continued tospark that.
Well, it started that love foryou know service and leadership,
but it continued to spark thatand continue to grow grow that
within me.

(21:27):
I also think about previoussupervisors like I had.
Um, his name is Paul Bellino,and I appreciate him even to
this day when we get anopportunity to connect with one
another.
He was a great supervisor, hewas one that would listen and
was intentional about growingyou and helping you and you
know, even giving correction ifthat was needed.
But he has such a willing heartand spirit to connect with with

(21:49):
counselors and really help andgrow counselors.
And so just has a kind heartoverall, but knows his
information.
And if he doesn't knowsomething, he'll tell you that,
hey, I don't know, but I'm gonnagive you to someone who does, or
let's let's search this, let'sresearch it, that kind of thing.
So, you know, excellentsupervisors like that.
And I have others as well, butthose just two that stand out to
me in my supervision, in myprogress, if you will.

(22:11):
And I kind of model mysupervision after them.

SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
Yeah, I think a word that kept coming to my mind, not
just with that answer, but justkind of throughout the course of
us chatting today was likehumility and the idea of like
being humble with ourselves,with our clients, with our
people that we're mentoring orour people who are mentoring us,
and like being able to have thatsecurity in ourselves to say, I
don't know, let me let me findout, let me use my resources.

(22:37):
That's right.
How do you feel your previousmentorships or networks have
influenced your ability to helpguide the next generation?
I know you have a supervisiondesignation, and also just with
being president, that I thinkthat lends itself well to those
kinds of opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
I I think being able to be a model in some ways, and
and it could be a different alot of different ways in which
it could be a model, but being amodel and maybe a guide for
people who are coming along,they're newer in the profession,
helping to maybe shape them andhelp to develop and grow them.
So I think those opportunitiesto give back, you know, through

(23:17):
mentorship or give back throughservice, things like that,
really helps to continue theprofession, continues to grow
us, and it continues to unite usamongst our various years of
experiences and variousexperiences we've had in the
profession with clients.
So being able to connect andshare with one another in those
various capacities is veryimportant.

(23:38):
And it really lends itself to uhnormalizing the fact that we're
not doing this by ourselves.
It just really puts it out therethat we're connected, we're here
to grow and develop develop evenfrom graduate school all the way
up into your career and you'remaybe retiring or something like
that.
So I think those opportunitiesare there, and and I love being

(24:00):
able to model that and provideopportunities for people to
grow.
Again, bring them alongside,just like someone did me and did
with me.
So I want to do those samethings with others and new
professionals in the um and evenseasoned professionals, so not
just new professionals, but alsothose that may have been in the
field for a number of years.

SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
Yeah, I remember one of I think counselor identity
gets talked a lot about, youknow, obviously in grad school.
And I think one of the thingsthat was really kind of a small
but big moment for me was when aa professor had us write down a
couple of like meaningfulphrases or words that come to
mind with our counseloridentity.
And one of mine was lifelonglearner, and I think that's so

(24:42):
important in our field,obviously to stay up to date,
but also just to I think it fitsin with that humility idea again
of like I don't know everything,I never will know everything.

SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
And that's like okay.
And I think the humanness of ourwork is so important and
powerful, and that can sometimesbe seen as like something that's
less than ideal of like bringingan idea.
I I don't think within our Ithink within our profession we
all know that we're we're humanand that's strength.
But I think talking to otherpeople outside of our
profession, I've had questionsof like, well, if you're if you

(25:12):
have anxiety, how are you gonnahelp someone else with anxiety?
And I think that is such a likea fundamental misunderstanding
of of where we come from.
Absolutely.
Like on that side of thecounseling realm.

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Absolutely, because we all are human.
Absolutely.
We all have our humanisticexperiences and the various
things that make us who we areto this point in time and who
we've become and who we'llcontinue to become, actually.
And so for people to think thatwe won't experience life like
they are is very interesting,you know?
And so I think that also canspeak to how we're maybe able to

(25:45):
assist people because maybewe've experienced similar things
like them that we can share,maybe our experiences as we
self-disclose, or being able touse some of our experience and
background as a way to say, hey,some people experience things
like this, and these are thethings that some of those
individuals may have done, youknow, may have did or whatever
in response to a particularcircumstance or situation.

(26:07):
So I think it'd be very powerfuland helpful in connecting with
our clients in that way.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
Yeah, I think those are some of the most powerful
moments I've had with clientswhere they I think a lot of
times my my clients, my olderclients, my teens and my
emerging adults can can getvery, I call them like shake and
soda bottles, like they have somuch potential energy and they
they're like, I need to put thissomewhere.
And it's I've I think the thingI've seen that calms them the

(26:34):
most outside of like a longbreathing exercise or something
a little more like traditionallyclinical.
It's just me being like, Iremember when this happened to
me, and I here I am in front ofyou, and I'm a whole person and
I'm okay, and my life is intact,and my friends and family are
still here, and like I did thisfive years ago, or I did this

(26:55):
last week, and I think that isso revolutionary for them
because on one hand, we areexperts and we they're coming to
us for help, but that that humanquality to it and the humility I
think is so healing and andspecial for clients, and then
also, you know, for forcounselors, I think it's a good
reminder for us to remember wearen't perfect, we don't have to

(27:16):
have all the answers, and andthat's helpful for clients too.

SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
It is, it is helpful for them, and it goes back to
modeling that for them.
So being able to say, I don'tknow, being able to say, I'm
unsure, being able to say, Yes,I was nervous and fearful too of
starting something new or doingsomething different or making
changes or experiencing, youknow, trauma or whatever it
might be.
You may not go into the detailsof that trauma, but being able
to say, I know what it feelslike to be able to experience

(27:43):
something that's traumatic thatyou didn't experience, you know,
or you were not aware of.
You know, so being able to tapinto those experiences and share
them to a degree with ourclients can be empowering, you
know, and it makes the realhuman experience and it
normalizes human experiences.

SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
I yeah, and I think that, youknow, we talked about
transference,counter-transference, and we
have to be aware of that.
But sometimes also clientexperiences are healing for us.

SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
Yes, it is, and vice versa, absolutely it is.
And so sometimes, you know, youI reflect on maybe different
experiences in a session of somesort, and you know, I sit and
think, like, wow, I can rememberbeing in that spot, thinking the
same thing, those kinds ofthings.
And so, you know, those areopportunities of like aha for
me, but also as an opportunityfor me to to reach out to maybe

(28:35):
my supports and say, you know,hey, this is what I've
experienced, etc.
And, you know, it kind of cameup for me during my session with
a client that I didn't sharewith them, but something I was
thinking about once the sessionwas over, once, you know, the
things have processed.
So yeah, those opportunities arevery rewarding for me because it
does keep you grounded.
It really does.
And keeps you with your feet tothe ground to what's happening

(28:58):
and what's being experienced byour clients, that we don't lose
sight of that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
Oh, absolutely.
And I think that is somewhat ofa protective factor for us when
we think about our longevity inthe field, right?
Is that our at times our work ishard and it's draining and it's
it's challenging, but there'salso an inherent like reward in
seeing clients do well or seeingthose aha moments.
Um, you know, we talk a lotabout counselor wellness, and I

(29:26):
know that's that's a focusyou're you're bringing to the
organization right now, and andwe talk about it a lot, but it
can be really hard to practice.
I I have trouble practicing it.
I know my friends who arecounselors have trouble
practicing it, and my friendswho aren't counselors have
trouble practicing it.
What are some strategies you useto encourage your own wellness
and self-care if you if you feelopen to sharing?

unknown (29:48):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
So it it can be challenging.
I will agree with you 100% onthat.
That is very challengingsometimes to consider self-care
and being intentional about it,you know.
But I I I remind myself that ifI'm not intentional by my own
self-care, then how can I be mybest if I, if you will, to help
my clients and the people thatI'm serving, whether it's

(30:12):
supervisees, you know,colleagues, whoever it may be.
And so I have to think aboutthat from the standpoint of can
I be my best, you know, if I'mnot caring for myself.
And it's challenging.
It is challenging becausesometimes we lose sight of in
the means of helping others thatwe don't help ourselves in the
process.
So it can be challenging.
But for me, I have a communityof support who helps to balance

(30:36):
kind of that work and play andyou know, those kinds of things
like we can work and work andwork.
But I try my best to play andplay and play too, you know, and
so having opportunities where Ican refresh that I can regain
that energy and that strength tokeep going and doing the daily
things that I do.
And so for me, I engage injournaling and I used to write a

(30:57):
lot physically in a journal, buta lot of times now I'm more so
typing it out, maybe somethingnotes in my phone or something
like that.
So do maybe audio journaling aswell.
And so sometimes I'm on a go andI'm just gonna I'm gonna click
the you know the recording andjust kind of spill some things
out.
So I have a variation of ways inwhich I journal now than
initially when I first startedcollege, way back when that I

(31:20):
would usually write somethingout.
And I still have those journalstoday, and I love to look back
on them and see where I was andwhat my mindset was and what was
I experiencing at that time.
So it's very refreshing andrewarding for me to do the
journaling and be able to lookback.
Some additional things I love todo is to read, and so these are
you know, some people likefiction and novels and things
like that.

(31:40):
I don't necessarily like thosekinds of things, but you know,
reading self-empowerment kindsof books or things on
leadership, things that maybeare developmental, if you will,
and things like that.
So I love reading stuff likethat.
I also love listening to musicand just kind of relaxing along
those lines.
And for me, a core is my faith,you know, and my support from my

(32:01):
faith community.
So for me, that keeps me going,it keeps me grounded, it keeps
me refreshed in in differentways in which I carry out the
various services that I do.
And so I try my best to makesure that faith is at a core,
whether that's connecting withother faith believers, being
involved, things of that nature.
So those are really things thathelp my self-care.

(32:21):
And I'm just intentional abouttaking time for myself.
And sometimes it's really downto one minute of mindfulness
breathing.
Honestly, one minute.
And so I even show some of mystudents that there is a
website, it's called De StressMonday.
De Stress Monday.
And you go on there and theyhave so many different breathing

(32:41):
apparatuses, and all it is isjust one minute to do it.
Barely.
You can do it over and over ifyou want to, but really it's
just breathing with maybe aheart or breathing with some
object that's swelling and the,you know, things like that.
So just taking one minute to dothat out my day, it just
refreshes you, it just revivesyou.
And so it doesn't take a wholelot of time, it doesn't cost

(33:03):
money.
I don't need to go on vacationfor it.
Although I do take that time aswell, but just one minute to
engage in mindfulness breathinghas been extremely helpful
throughout the day, particularlyafter I've had a challenging
session, you know, that wasrough for the client.
It was challenging, it was, youknow, really digging deep a
little bit for our clients.

(33:24):
And so taking that moment afterthat session, before I go into
my next one, I will take thatmindful moment.
I've I've learned that.
Because otherwise, then I'mlike, oh, you know, in a tizzy
and, you know, very anxiousgoing into the next session.
And that's not fair to my nextclient.
So I take that moment, gather mymind, gather my heart, all those

(33:44):
kinds of things, and then beable to go fresh, if you will,
into that next session with thatclient because I want to give
them my all just like I gave theprevious client.
Um, so those are just some ofthe things I've learned.
Trust me, it has taken a minuteto get to that point, you know,
at this point in the fieldwhere, you know, I'm 26 years in
with the profession at thispoint.
And so I've learned that overtime when initially I did not

(34:06):
know that.
I wasn't as aware of it.
And so the potential for burnoutwas there, you know.
And so I I made sure that Istarted to do it for myself.
And then I'm also intentionalabout my supervisees and those I
work with, you know, to helpthem to be intentional too.

SPEAKER_01 (34:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that burnout is kind ofa scary word sometimes for our
profession because there's, youknow, this is our job, but it's
also a human connection, likewe've talked about.
We are doing a service topeople, we are advocates for
people.
And so that it's so common withthe demand.
Like I think the system we workin isn't the most well oriented

(34:48):
towards the work we do and thelike requirements of of showing
up for everyone in our in oursystems.
What kind of systemic ororganizational supports do you
hope OCAA can provide to helpcounselors sustain themselves
because our field is sodemanding and burnout can be so
prevalent for us.

SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
Right, that's that's excellent.
And when I immediately thinkabout systemic kind of
organizational supports, I thinkabout ways in which OCA is
intentional, about opportunitiessuch as conferences and
workshops, you know, gatheringtogether in some form or
fashion.
So I think about these areopportunities to network as we

(35:29):
talked about already andconnecting.
And so it also can increase thateducation and you know the
knowledge base that we get aswell, but really it helps to
connect one another of acrossOhio.
So, you know, those in Northeastcan talk to someone in the
Southeast area and be able tosay, hey, I've been dealing with
this in my area, you know, helpme to explore options or ways to

(35:50):
address this.
You know, what are you doing inyour area that maybe I can bring
to my area, things of thatnature.
So I really think it's importantthat we are as a group, as an
organization, being mindful ofhow do we provide opportunities
for our clinicians, for ourpractitioners, for our students,
everyone in their varioussettings, opportunities to

(36:12):
refresh, to renew their energyand their strength, their
strength, and be able tocontinue on in this work.
It's not easy work.
It is hard sometimes, it'schallenging sometimes.
Um, it can be very emotionallyand mentally taxing sometimes,
but it's also rewarding at thesame time.
It's energizing at the sametime, it's encouraging at the

(36:36):
same time.
And so being able to balancethat out of when I feel a little
down or feel like my energy isdepleting.
I can think about a colleague, Ican call a colleague, I can
reach out to a colleague, thingslike that, and say, oh, I can
look forward to I'm gonnaconnect with some colleagues at
the conference or connect withsome colleagues at this workshop

(36:57):
that we're going to, things likethat.
So I think those are greatopportunities that as a group,
as an organization, we've beenintentional about within OCA.
And I hope to continue that.

SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Yeah.
I think one of the things thatI've been thinking about as
we've been talking is I thinkfor me and I hope for others who
are involved, like being in OCAcan be really empowering.
It makes me feel reallyconnected, it's a good
opportunity for learning.
What excites you about buildingthings like coaching and
supervision into OCA?

(37:30):
Because those are alsoinherently powerful as well.

SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
Yes, oh, they're they're definitely empowering
and helpful.
And it really strengthens ourprofession.
So, you know, for me, beingconnected with like-minded
individuals.
Like who wants to be a part ofanything that you don't see a
connection, even if you feelthere are differences, you know,
but can you still connect withpeople who are like-minded and
at least going in a similardirection that you're going?

(37:54):
So to me, that's exciting.
To me, that's refreshing.
To me, that gives an opportunityfor me to, you know, continue
that passion that I have and thezeal I have for the profession.
But it also can ignite thatfire, you know, just in case
maybe the fire is fizzling out alittle bit, you know?
So being connected with oneanother.
It's like rubbing stickstogether, you know, as they say,

(38:14):
like the natural campfire, justrubbing those sticks together
and everybody's coming together,all of a sudden now you have a
united, you know, of theigniting of the flames again.
And so it's really thatopportunity for us to connect to
be able to continue that passionand be able to continue that
growth.
And so having coaching andsupervision opportunities where
you can talk with people abouthard topics, talk with

(38:36):
colleagues about, you know,things that are maybe
challenging.
Maybe you have a directsupervisor that you can connect
with and have your ongoingsupervision, but also times
where maybe you don't have adirect supervisor because you
are the supervisor.
Then you connect with someoneand it can provide coaching to
you or mentorship, things likethat, consultation.
Those are not the areas that wecan expand and be able to

(38:58):
connect with one another and beable to have that coaching and
supervision opportunities.
You know, I tell people acrossthe profession, you never
outgrow the opportunity toconnect with another
professional on the work that inthe work that we're doing.
You don't outgrow that.
You're always going to findopportunities where there's
going to be more to know, morethings to try to experience,

(39:21):
more information to gain.
And so, no matter how longyou've been in a profession, as
much of the experiences we havethroughout our number of years,
there are opportunities to growand to do better.
And it's go it goes back to thepoint you made earlier about
lifelong learner.
We absolutely have to be that.
We're expecting our clients tobe a lifelong learner.

(39:43):
We're expecting them to stretchand to reach and to grow.
Why not us as well asprofessionals?
So supervision may be needed, ofcourse, in your early stages of
your licensure, but also onceyou become more seasoned, if you
will, maybe coaching might bemore appropriate or
consultations might be moreappropriate than, if you will,
direct one-on-one supervision.

(40:04):
So again, those opportunities togrow and connect, and it helps
to decrease the burnout rate,according to research.

SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we've talked a lot aboutyou have a really strong vision
for OCA and what you want to dowith your time.
Are there any ways that membersor listeners can get involved in
furthering that vision or in theorganization in general?

SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
Oh, that's awesome.
We create opportunities,opportunities everywhere.
And so, you know, OCA has manydivisions that of interest, you
know, that I think many othercounselors can find somewhere,
you know, to be able to planttheir feet, if you will, as
being a member of OCA.
And so that's that'sopportunities, those are
opportunities right there withdifferent divisions.

(40:51):
And I tell people if there's adivision that's not there or an
interest area that's not listed,let's get it started.
Let's try to figure it out.
Let's try to get, you know,something on the books, if you
will.
So opportunities to serve, toopportunities for leadership,
things like that are everywherewithin OCA, within our
divisions, within a chapter thatyou may pick.

(41:11):
There are plenty ofopportunities.
There's some impromptu thingsthat maybe come up where it's
only maybe short time that youcould be a part of committee and
do something, and then that'sit, you know.
So it could be as long as youneed it to be or as short as you
need it to be.
So there's a variety ofopportunities where it doesn't,
you know, cost a whole lot.
It may cost your time, and maybenot a lot of time.

(41:33):
So it's not like you're giving40 hours or something like that.
It could be something that's onehour a month, potentially, maybe
something once a week that's anhour.
So there's so many opportunitiesto get involved, to get
connected.
We have different, again,different divisions, different
chapters, different subgroupswithin those.
We have different committeeswithin OCA as well that are not

(41:53):
necessarily connected to adivision or chapter.
So those things are veryimportant as well.
It keeps us afloat, it keeps usfunctional, it keeps us
operating well.
And so, again, opportunities togrow are all within OCA.
And if there's something thatperhaps is needed, an area for
growth, tell us about it.
Let's bring it, let's figure itout, let's try to create that

(42:17):
opportunity for that person.
So lots of opportunities.
Get connected, get involved.
There is something for you to doand to be able to grow and
develop within OCA.

SPEAKER_01 (42:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it it can beoverwhelming when you first
join, whether you're in gradschool and they like make you
join for your class.
Or once you graduate, it there'sso much to kind of wade through.
But I think it's so wonderful tolike find where you fit and find
the thing that you really liketo contribute and like um put

(42:51):
some fuel in your fire and helpsyou sustain something that is
such a wonderful part of thething.
If you could leave counselors inOhio with a message of
encouragement right now, I knowwe talked a little bit vaguely
about some challenges outsidethe profession.
What what would your message befor anyone who's maybe having a

(43:14):
bit of a hard time right now orjust, you know, could use some
fuel for their fire?

SPEAKER_00 (43:18):
You know, one thing I I thought about and I made
sure to write it down so Iwouldn't forget, and I've been
constantly actually saying it,so I really shouldn't forget it,
but I want to continue to say itstate it is that together we
stand and together we advance.
Together we stand and togetherwe advance.
And so I'm reminded of the factthat we are unified together,

(43:41):
and I want to continue toencourage people that we are
here together, despite ourdifferences, despite maybe not
agreeing on everything, we'restill here together as a group,
and we can also as a groupadvance together, push the
profession forward, be able togive voice to the clients that
we serve, being able to givevoice to the professions, you

(44:04):
know, to professionals withinthe profession.
And so together we can voicewhere there may be challenges
that we need to address, maybebeing able to connect on issues
and matters that we can advancethe profession and things like
that.
So we stand together and weadvance together.
So I encourage people, you arenot by yourself, you are not
alone, someone is here to beable to support you.

(44:27):
Just reach out, reach out.
We tell our clients all thetime, reach out and you know,
you know, get some help orwhatever it might be when you're
struggling.
The same thing within theprofession.
If there are challenges you'rebeing that you're experiencing,
if there are struggles orwhatever it may be, reach out,
connect with someone.
Someone is able to help you.
And more than likely, one orseveral individuals have been in

(44:51):
the same spot you were in atsome point.
So being able to connect withone another is huge.
If I would leave thatencouraging word there.
Again, together we stand andtogether we advance.
So let's advance together.

SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, lastly, we ask thisquestion on every episode.
The name of our podcast is OhioCounseling Conversations.
What important conversations doyou think counseling professors
should be having with each otherand or their clients in our
state?

SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Um, well, several conversations for sure that I
think can need to continue andfurther have opportunities for
these conversations to be at ourforefront, if you will.
So we should have conversationsabout how to further advance the
work that we do.
And so whether that this is moreresearch or more assessments,

(45:43):
more tools, things like that, inwhich we can advance the work
that we do.
Again, showing the quality workand the results and the
outcomes.
You know, when you're able toshow change in very tangible
ways, it really supports andvalidates the work that you're
doing.
So I think conversations abouthow can we again show forth the
great work that we're doing andshow the outcomes that we need.

(46:07):
I think another conversationthat we need to have is how we
can support, continue to supportour clients and give them a
voice to their concerns.
You know, many of our clientsfeel so downtrodden sometimes,
they feel worn out by issues oflife.
And so for them, they don't haveanything else to give.
They don't know what else theymay be able to share.

(46:27):
And so in their mind, cansomeone else speak up for me?
Can someone else advocate forme?
So for me, having conversationsabout how do we further support
our clients and give voice totheir concerns.
Also, concerns or excuse me,conversations about
reimbursement.
Another conversation that weneed to constantly have.

(46:48):
We don't want to always talkabout money, we don't always
want to talk about insurances.
Those are tough things to dealwith because they're external to
us in some ways.
But they really want to helpsupport the work that we're
doing, they help validate thework that we're doing, but it
also substantiates the work thatwe're doing.
So we need to talk about thefinancial part of it.
No one wants to do this work andnot get paid.

(47:10):
Yeah, there are opportunitieswe're providing pro bono, if you
will, where we're giving it togiving back to the community or
giving back to profession andwe're offering this for free or
something like that.
But they're most of the timeswe're looking for some
reimbursement to be able tosupport ourselves.
These are our livelihoods, justlike any other profession.
And so we need to make sure thatwe're having conversations about

(47:33):
reimbursement rates that aregoing to be equitable across
different professions anddifferent disciplines, you know.
So our other similar disciplinesare we being paid and reimbursed
similarly?
If it's less than, we need tohave a conversation about that.
Looking at our insurances andsaying, you know, are our
services being reverre-reimbursed at the rate that
they need to be reimbursed at?

(47:54):
Are we able to have the sessionsthat we need to work with the
individuals that we're workingwith?
So if you're only limited tofive, let's advocate how do we
get 10?
How do we get 15?
Things like that.
Granted, we really don't have asmany of those challenges like we
did once before in the field,but sometimes we do meet, you
know, external challenges wherethey want to limit what we're

(48:15):
able to do.
And so conversations about howdo we ensure we stay viable, how
do we ensure that we arereimbursements are comparable to
our similar disciplines andthings of that nature, and other
things to help support ouroverall profession would be
matters of any externalchallenges that may come up.
It may be something we neverthought of.
Okay, let's have a conversationabout that.

(48:36):
This is being brought down withlegislation or with you know
rules and laws.
Let's talk about it.
We didn't anticipate that.
Let's talk about it, let's bringit to the table.
Because for me, let's not shyaway from those challenging or
maybe uncomfortableconversations, but they're
conversations that need to behad, you know.
So being forefront and being inas a forerunner, if you will, to

(49:02):
having those challengingconversations, we should be able
to do that.
We push our clients all the timeto have challenging
conversations with us.
Why can't we have that as aprofession where we need to
maybe able to grow those kindsof things within our profession?
So being able to have thosechallenging conversations, I
would say overall, would behelpful to us.

SPEAKER_01 (49:21):
Yeah, I love that.
I think there's a pressuresometimes to present like
everything's great and we loveour jobs, which we do, but there
are ways where we could bebetter taken care of or we could
advocate for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 (49:35):
That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 (49:38):
Well, thank you so much for joining us today,
Carmela.
I really appreciate you takingthe time and we look forward to
seeing the rest of yourpresidential residency and all
the great things you're gonnabring to the organization.

SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 (49:52):
From integrating cultural responsiveness into our
everyday work to prioritizingwellness and self-care, Carmela
highlighted how intentionalgrowth and connection shape who
we are as counselors.
Her emphasis on mentorship,networking, and professional
identity calls us to stay rootedin our purpose while continuing
to evolve in competence andcompassion.
As we look ahead, it's clearthat OCA is committed to

(50:14):
empowering counselors throughcoaching, supervision, and
systemic support, helping ussustain the important work we do
for others and for ourselves.
Carmella leaves us with apowerful message that each of us
has the ability to lead change,not just within our counseling
rooms, but within ourcommunities and our state.
Together, through sharedconversations and collaboration,

(50:34):
we can advance a stronger, moreinclusive counseling profession
in Ohio.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of Ohio Counseling
Conversations.
Be sure to subscribe, share, andcontinue the dialogue because
the most important conversationsare the ones that move us
forward.

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Conversation 36 - Who Are We As Counselors & How Do We Prove It

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Conversation 36 - Who Are We As Counselors & How Do We Prove It