Conversation 37 - Sustaining Counselors Through Shortages and Strain - Ohio Counseling Conversations

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Welcome back to Ohio Counseling Conversations, the
official podcast of the OhioCounseling Association, where we
hold space for the people behindthe profession.
We're here to highlight thevoices, stories, and work of
counselors, educators, andadvocates across Ohio.
Whether you're in the field orjust curious about the power of
counseling, this is whereconnection meets conversation.

(01:45):
Let's dig in.
I'm your host, Dr.
Marissa Cargill, and today we'rediving into a topic that feels
especially urgent in this momentin our profession.
How counselors can sustainthemselves, their calling, and
their hope in the midst ofworkforce shortages, vicarious
trauma, burnout, and thesystemic barriers that seem to
multiply by the day.
But today's conversation isn'tabout despair.

(02:08):
It's about vitality, meaningmaking, vicarious
transformation, and the reminderthat even in chaotic and
challenging times, we arecapable of profound resilience.
I'm honored to be joined by Dr.
Alicia Hall, a counselor,supervisor, and advocate who
brings a powerful message ofencouragement that counselors
can reconnect to what gives themlife, reclaim their sense of

(02:29):
purpose, and remain rooted inthe work we are called to do.
So if you're feeling tired,stretched thin, or wondering how
to keep showing up, this episodeis our love letter to you.
Take a breath, settle in, andlet's walk toward hope together.
And we are so happy to be joinedby Dr.
Alicia Hall.
Alicia, thank you so much forjoining us today.
We're so happy to have you onOhio Counseling Conversations.

(02:53):
Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me.
I'm really excited to be able totalk today and kind of share
some things that I'm excitedabout.
And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Could you tell us a little bitabout yourself and your
experiences?
Like what led you to theprofession?

SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Yeah.
You know, I I've always, Ithink, had big interest, even
when I was a kid, with likewanting to understand how people
work, how they think, how theyget through things.
And, you know, throughout, youknow, college, I guess, getting
into that, really went thiscounseling path.
So I've been practicing, oh mygoodness, I'm looking now at the
date in like a little over 15years, I've been doing this

(03:30):
work.
So I guess that probably makesme a lifer at this point.
Um, and throughout that, youknow, I do I specialize in in
doing trauma work.
I work with kids and families alot, and I really am passionate
about helping people heal fromtrauma and also variability
focused.
So I work a lot with people withyou know neurodivergence and
helping them kind of cope withyou know things that they're

(03:51):
dealing with as well.

SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
So yeah.
Yeah, that's awesome.
And I think, yeah, you are alifer.
I think that we can, you know,we could at least say we we
think that that's a goodestimate of time.
I don't know if there's a adefinition, but like let's
define it.
Yes, you're a lifer.
You mentioned when we werepreparing for the interview some

(04:14):
of your passions and thatcounselor career sustainability
is a really big passion pointfor you.
What do you think likesustainability really looks like
for us right now, given providershortages and some relentless
systemic pressures we're facing?

SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Yeah, I mean, I I think we all know, obviously,
you know, we talk about thingslike provider shortages and we
talk about just the difficultyof the work that we do.
And it is the reality that, youknow, I think every one of us
who come into this profession,we come in with a passion and a
desire to help people and to bethere.
And like we come in with, youknow, we we choose this
profession from passion and wefeel like it's a calling.

(04:53):
And often when we hit thereality of the work itself, you
know, working with clients,right?
That's very taxing.
It's very, it can be veryemotionally draining.
Alongside that, right, workingwithin a system that is very
broken, whether it's, you know,within a practice or an agency
that isn't healthy, whether it'sinsurance-driven care, whether
it's, you know, we're sharingthese collective, you know,

(05:16):
collective traumas, you know,throughout, you know, yeah, the
the US and the world.
And so there's a lot that we'recontending with.
And so I think that the whenthat reality hits very often as
counselors, whether we're new orwe're seasoned, there's so much
potential to be like, I can't dothis anymore.
This isn't, this isn't healthyfor me, or I'm not, I'm burnt
out, I'm not able to continue.

(05:37):
And so, you know, for me, I Ilook at that and I go, well, our
passion, you know, my passion isclient welfare, client care.
Well, how can we do that if wedon't have, you know, counselors
who are able to be sustainable?
And so that's a lot of whereI've been shifting over the last
few years.
And how can I help counselorswith like, let's keep going,
let's keep doing the work, let'skeep figuring out how to keep

(05:58):
our passion and to work throughthese really difficult
challenges that we face.

SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Preach, yes, okay.
Yeah, I think like so manythings like resonate for me with
with what you just shared interms of like what we
experience, like as counselors,whether no matter how far along
we are in the profession, thatthere's just a lot of heaviness
in in the air right now.
And a lot of counselors arecarrying some heavy stuff,

(06:29):
personal or vicarious trauma.
Like, can you speak to like whensomeone might be m moving more
towards what's consideredvicarious transformation rather
than like vicarious exhaustion?

SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Yeah.
So I think, you know, one, itit's we have to really be able
to identify like, are weexperiencing some of these like
deleterious effects of thecounseling work, like vicarious
trauma?
And you know, I think there's agap in that, right?
There's a gap in how we talkabout that.
There's a gap within maybeemployers, there's a gap sort of
as a whole that we're justsupposed to keep pushing, keep

(07:05):
pushing, keep pushing, and notrecognizing that, hey, I might
be having this experience ofvicarious trauma, or I might be
experiencing burnout, or I mightbe questioning if this is my
calling.
You know, and and to kind of putit in context, I mean, we even
statistically wise, right?
Like during, especially duringCOVID and after COVID, like
there's some research that's outthere that talks about like 80%

(07:28):
of like mental health providers,including counselors,
experienced like or noted I hadthis has had a negative impact
on my work life and my personallife.
And that's a huge amount.
I mean, that's the majority ofus, right?
Yeah.
Um, there's stats that say thatalmost 50% of counselors
experience experience vicarioustrauma.
And even after after thepandemic as well, like 52% of

(07:49):
just healthcare workers as awhole, including counselors,
talk about just leaving thefield altogether.
Yeah.
And so these are very realthings that I don't think we
talk about and we don'trecognize.
We we kind of encourage peopleto just keep keep pushing, keep
pushing, keep pushing.
And if you can't keep pushing,there's something wrong with
you.
You're not committed enough,you're not, you know, excited
enough.
And so I look at, you know, atthis point, I just really

(08:11):
believe that we're all going toexperience some level of
vicarious trauma or some levelof burnout in our career,
whether it's early on, whetherit's later on, like there's that
that is just going to happenbecause of the world that we
live in and the types of thingsour clients are dealing with.
And so if we know that, right,we can prepare.
And we can also talk about,like, okay, yes, these are
negative things that can happenthat we can be affected by, but

(08:33):
also there's this reallyincredible piece of what we do
that can promote this idea ofvicarious transformation.
You know, sure we've experiencedsome negative things as a result
of what we do, but then how canwe move towards feeling, you
know, tapping into ourmeaning-making, tapping into the
things that give us purpose,tapping into being able to see
how we've been transformed inpositive ways by the work that

(08:54):
we do and being able to leaninto math.

SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh man.
Yeah, it's it's as a counselor,like I'm just thinking even of
my own personal experiences andhow like sometimes it's
isolating, right?
Like the work that we do can belike, okay, well, this actually
does exist in a vacuum becausethere's only like so many people
I can talk to about this.

(09:18):
And so some of those likestrategies you mentioned require
community, right?
Yeah.
We talk about burnout a lot inthe vicarious trauma, but we
don't talk about themeaning-making that you
mentioned.
How do you feel like counselorscan reconnect and and to their
own purpose to others when likethis work feels so

(09:42):
extraordinarily like consuming,overwhelming, etc.?
Especially when like maybe thesystemat systemic challenges are
like kind of at play too.

SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think some meaning making I I
really believe does play a hugerole in kind of the the the
how-to, right?
Like, how do we, as counselors,heal?
How do we continue to havingthat momentum and that
excitement for what we do?
Where I've really been leaninginto, and this is partially from
just the work I did in mydissertation, and also in in the

(10:14):
research that's kind of outthere right now.
There's not a lot of it, butI've really been digging into
this idea of vitality moreoften.
And vitality really, I mean,it's sort of this idea of like
the energy, the way we sustainenergy, the way that we kind of
like experience aliveness orexperience that like sort of

(10:35):
ability to kind of like feel intune and feel, you know, that
excitement, that passion.
And so I really am looking atvitality now as almost like this
sort of foundational constructthat really kind of is
foundational for the idea ofresiliency, mean-making, even
like vicarious post-traumaticgrowth.
And when I say it's sort of thisfoundational construct, I look

(10:56):
at it as sort of like vitalityis kind of like a way of being.
You know, it's that the thewhatever's inside of us that
just gives us that energy, thatgives us that life force.
And then the way we connect to avitality, it's like that's the
what we do, right?
Vitality connection is likeaction.
How do we put our vitality intoaction?
How do we connect with that?
And I really believe that whenwe are able to connect with

(11:16):
vitality within ourselves, thenwe are kind of creating this
sort of vibrant, energizingsanctuary within ourselves that
we're able to pull from when westart to experience the hard
parts of what we do, or weexperience these system
systematic issues that arehindering our work and hindering
our clients' progress.
Um, and I really feel like it'sthis, it's it's what helps us

(11:38):
feel refreshed and it helps ussustain that like that passion
and that motivation and thatbelief.
And so I I've really been kindof leaning into how do we
promote that connection tovitality within ourselves so
that we can keep doing the workso we can be sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Do you have any like practical suggestions
suggestions of like howcounselors can really cultivate
that?
Like, how do we put that intomotion or practice?

SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Yeah.
So I have a lot of ideas.
It's hard to narrow that down.
But I think it starts with, aswith everything in what we do,
it starts with just awarenesswithin ourselves.
Hey, you know, what is vitalityto me?
What does that feel like?
What does that look like?
How can I sit within that andkind of know what that what that
feels like, right?
Um, and gaining some awarenessabout what are the things that

(12:25):
help me feel connected tovitality?
What are things that maybedisconnect me from vitality?
Some things that I have foundwithin either my research or
within the research in generalis that some big barriers for
disconnection from vitality arethings like vicarious trauma,
burnout, not feeling supported,like not having a support system
around you, or that sense ofcommunity, having systemic

(12:48):
issues like insurance-drivencare, or maybe employers who
aren't supportive or who havereally high expectations for
productivity.
I know we don't use that wordanymore, but productivity is
what it is, or you know, justfeeling like you were saying
before, feeling isolated.
Another piece of it too is thisidea of sort of that
co-transference, right?
You know, people sometimes thinkabout counter-transference, but

(13:09):
I look at it as back and forth,right?
Yeah.
But what often, like when wesit, you know, and for myself
personally, I can I can pick outsituations where I've sat with a
client where maybe they'vethey've shared their trauma
narrative with me.
And in that moment, as they'resharing, I'm having my own sort
of reaction, right?
That sometimes can cause adisconnect from that vitality.
And I have to sort of like bewith my client, that's the most

(13:31):
important thing, right?
But also deal with this reactionand then deal with the residual
as it happens later.
And so there's this aspect ofyou know, being able to identify
what are things that createbarriers for me to connect with
vitality.
And then the flip side, right?
Looking at things that actuallyfacilitate that connection to
vitality.

SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because the system is going toset up barriers or challenges,
sort of, you know, even whenthey evolve and change, we know
like there will maybe be a aroad bump or or what have you,
whether it's funding, staffing,just misalignment with maybe
what our client needs.

(14:11):
What would you say are ways likecounselors can connect or
reconnect or experience likeagency, creativity, yeah, all
these things that that connectwith vitality?

SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Yeah.
I mean, I think a lot of it, youknow, is is not only the
reflection piece, right?
Like, where am I at with this,but also going, well, what does
build up the my sense ofconnection?
What does build up my sense oflike, I want to keep doing this?
Sometimes I think it's justrevisiting why did I begin this
work?
Like, why did I, why did I comeinto this profession, especially

(14:43):
for seasoned season counselors,you know?
I've been now doing this for alittle over 15 years.
Well, why did I start doingthis?
Like, why did I decide this isthe path I was gonna go, you
know, and remembering that path.
Um, I think sometimes too, it's,you know, I experience a lot of
vicarious resilience from myclients.
And so I think, okay, I had thisclient the other day, and like

(15:04):
they did this, this, and this,and then they talked about this.
And then I felt like, oh mygosh, well, if they can overcome
this thing that they've gonethrough and they can experience
healing, surely like this is onewhy I'm doing this work.
Because I want to help be a partof their healing.
And then two, like, I canprobably overcome whatever I'm
dealing with, you know, and sothat tapping into those
reminders of the things thatlike give us purpose, the things

(15:27):
that get us excited to keepdoing the work.
Because there's always going tobe something, right?
That's going to be a barrier.
And then being able to step backand go, you know, this is still
why I'm doing it.
This is still something thatlike excites me and makes me
want to kind of like, you know,keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Yeah, it kind of it helps us continue.
It's that that motivation.
Are there protective factorsthat you would say like are are
helpful in counselors kind ofstaying grounded in this
calling, even when it's reallyhard and and we're called to be
resilient?

SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think a big part, a big pieceis like alignment with our core
values.
You know, I think when we arefeeling like we're aligned with
our core values, that so muchpromotes that sense of vitality
and that sense of being able tobe, you know, whether it's
resilient or making meaning.
And you know, when we feel likea disconnect with our core
values, sometimes that does thenlike, well, what am I doing?

(16:25):
Am I, you know, whether it'smaybe some posture syndrome or
like, oh my goodness, you know,I'm totally messing this up.
What am I doing?
I'm gonna, you know, why did Isay that in session?
You know, whether it's I'mworking for a system that's very
broken.
And so I'm I'm here with myclient, but then I'm watching my
client be re-traumatized by asystem, you know, it's
recognizing those points ofdisconnect, you know, where you
feel like you're not inalignment with your core values

(16:47):
and then recentering, how do Iget back in alignment with those
core values?
How do I, you know, sit withthat like I can keep doing this,
or you know, coping withwhatever it might be that's
coming up that's that's gettingin the way.
And I think too, it's even justkind of paybacking on that, it's
like how we're viewing our role,right, and the process, you

(17:10):
know, and and remindingourselves that like, what is
what is my purpose within thisrole?
What is my purpose within thisprocess?
And you know, on those daysmaybe we don't feel like we've
done enough, or those days thatwe're feeling overloaded or
we're frustrated because maybeour client is is just not moving
along the way we're hoping,right?
That there's this reminder oflike, but wait, what's my role?
What's my purpose in this?

(17:30):
And being able to stay in thatspace and being okay with that.
Yeah, those are a couple ofthings.

SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
I'm like just sitting here kindof reflecting on some of my own
experiences where I'm like,yeah, I've definitely felt that
before, where I'm like, am Imaking a difference?
Right.
Like I think and whether that'simposter syndrome or sometimes
struggling with our own, like II consistently, you know, remind
myself that it's not my pacing,right?

(17:59):
Like, but that can still, youknow, I'm human.
And so like sometimes it's stilllike, oh, I I can see this for
them, and I know they've seen itfor themselves a little bit, but
like there's this likeregression or just a slower pace
than maybe you thought it wouldbe.
And it's not like the biggestdisappointment, but it still

(18:20):
feels like, wait, I thought we Ithought we had made progress,
and that can feel a littledefeating as a counselor.
And it's like, no, it's not,you're still here for a reason,
and they still show up for areason, too.
So it's like that balance oflike, you know, acknowledging
your own humanity uh with thoseother professional

(18:41):
responsibilities, and I thinkthat's so important.
So I'm just like taking alltaking it all in what you're
saying, and like I appreciateyou commenting about like the
value alignment because that issomething that I think you know,
I'm always a fan of nonfiction,so I'm like, I'm not necessarily

(19:04):
reading academic journals atnight, like let's be clear.
But I like reading some researchat times and like being able to
share that with clients.
And I talk about how valuealignment is so connected to
satisfaction in our jobs, in ourrelationships, and our lives,
and uh you know, gotta practicewhat you preach, right?

(19:27):
Right.
And so like that that washitting home for me too, that
it's like, yeah, the valuealignment is is pretty critical
to like our well-being.

SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
What I know for myself, and uh something I also
I'll I'll when I'm teaching,I'll say this, or when I'm even
supervising, I'll say this tosupervisees, but for myself,
even I often, especially onthose like those days, it just
feels so soul crushing.
I don't know if you've everexperienced those days, but
there's just some days whereit's maybe you can spend in a
row where it's just they'rereally struggling and you're
like, man, this is really tough.
And you know, I'm feeling reallydiscouraged and going, you know,

(19:59):
what have I done here?
Like, am I doing enough?
If is, you know, is you know, amI doing good work?
You know, those things maybewill run through my mind.
And a lot of times I'll stepback and go, Hold on, Alicia,
like, did you provide a safespace?
Did you provide that sort of youknow, person-centered,
unconditional positive regard,that empathy?
Were you congruent?
Like, did you do those reallycore foundational things?

(20:21):
And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I havedone those things.
And I'm like, that is enough.
That's exactly what you'resupposed to do.
Anything extra you did was justbonus.
And so sometimes you feel likethat just brings me back down,
like and helps ground me inlike, hey, I'm in in alignment
with myself.
I've done enough.

SPEAKER_02 (20:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
And that's okay, you know, and that sometimes helps
bring up some of that thatdiscouragement and that, you
know, the heaviness.

SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
I'm grateful you said it.
I'm like, that's grounding mefrom like a session I had
yesterday.
I so thank you.
Thank you.
Like, I think those areimportant reminders for us,
especially in Ohio.
Ohio has been ripe with a lot ofchallenges in the last couple
years, and counselors as aresult are facing a lot of

(21:10):
pressure and shortages and maybehigher acuity because of some of
the political turmoil,legislative barriers.
We know that exists and and Ithink we've had a lot of
episodes talking about that.
Can you maybe speak to some ofthe bright spots you feel like
are emerging in our field or ourcommunities?

SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
Yeah, I mean, I well, there's definitely a lot
of heaviness when it comesstatewide, systemically,
legislatively.
I know that there is this whatbright spot for me is is
watching one, my clients, butalso our profession really rally
and sort of stand up and say,hey, like we're not okay with

(21:55):
some of this, and we're gonna,we're gonna push back.
Like we're gonna do what we needto do to like to push back on
the system.
And I know a lot of my, even alot of my clients who are who
are maybe within, who are beingmore affected by these things,
you know, watching be able tonavigate this really tough time
and seeing them, you know, yes,they're struggling, but also
they're kind of like, we'regonna like one, get through this

(22:18):
and two, we're gonna try to makechange happen, you know, whether
it's through advocacy, whetherit's through I'm gonna live my
life, you know.
I think those things to mebecome really inspirational
that, you know, the the systemdoesn't isn't necessarily like
while it's maybe trying to likecreate an even more barriers for
people, or it's trying to, youknow, oppress people that you

(22:42):
know either my clients or us asprofessionals are like actually
rising up more to that, you knowwhat I mean?

SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
Yeah, like meeting the moment in in ways that you
know we feel really passionateabout.
I I was gonna say in in meetingways that we feel like we must,
and maybe that feels too strong,but maybe it doesn't feel strong
enough in some ways too, right?
But that like meeting thosemoments and not quitting, like

(23:12):
right, having the theresilience, but like the just
the directed direction, I shouldsay, like the the it like we're
not gonna go back, like right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
Yeah, we're intending to you're intending to
disempower us or the people thatyou know we're also you know
allies with.
We instead are going to be evenmore empowered.
We're going to be even more likeyou know, ourselves and and
authentic, and we're gonna pushback and say this is this is not
okay, and we're gonna fightagainst that if we have to.

SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah.
It's it's been a reallyreflective time.
I guess like I can say formyself personally, but I think
I'm not alone in that.
And with that, it's also broughtlike some, you know, new things,
right?
Like I think Before this pastyear, I have written my

(24:09):
representatives, like it wasn'tnew to me, but it was something
that became a lot more like partof my like consistent practice,
right?
Compared to maybe where I didn'tfeel like I had to advocate as
frequently.
But it's made me feel like,okay, I have a voice, I'm gonna
use it.

(24:29):
And I've been using it morefrequently in some of those ways
within OCA and also like outsideof it.
And I think like having theseconversations is important so
that you know it plants seedsfor those who listen, and maybe
it plants enough of a seed thatthey share it with someone, and
then that that has the potentialto like you know, foster some

(24:53):
growth and create new advocates,right?
Like have other people feelempowered to lift their voice.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
Well, and I'm taking that, you know, even you know,
ways that we make meaning,right?
And we know that the ways wemake meaning help promote our
connection to vitality.
And so a lot of times too, it'syou know, there that is a way of
making meaning is hey, I canadvocate, I can stand up for
social justice, whether it's youknow, one-on-one with a client,
whether it's within yourcommunity, with whether it's
higher than that, you know,within the state or national,

(25:25):
whatever, you know, that thatthat's a way of connecting with
vitality.
And so when we're able to evenfind ways that we can express
it, right?
And we can put put out thatadvocacy of social justice, you
know, it does then give us agreater connection to vitality,
which then helps us keep doingwhat we're doing and you know.

SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
Yeah, I like I'm I can't help but think of I know
you were at the All OhioCounselors Conference, and our
our current OCA presidentCarmilla had talked in her intro
to the keynote about like kindof keeping our fires burning and
staying lit.
And I think like that speaks tothat of like that we maybe share

(26:03):
that spark with other people andthat that's meaning making.
And like I this isn't like mypersonal counseling session, but
I just appreciate like whatyou're saying because I think
about you know, even within OCA,I I felt like I had, I don't
think trouble is the right word,but I was like, I'm not sure.
Like I want to be involved, butI don't know where I want to be
involved.
And and so, like, I you know,I'm members of other divisions

(26:28):
and chapters and things, and Iwas just like, this isn't it,
this isn't it.
And when they put the call outfor the podcast, I was like, I
love media, yeah, let's let'sgo.
And that that was meaning makingfor me.
But it's like something that,like, yeah, I it's a lot of work
at times, and that can bestressful, but that like the
thing that keeps me going isthat it's meaningful, right?

(26:49):
Like that that's something I ampassionate about and feel like,
oh yeah, like this is somethingI can do.
This is a way I can contribute.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Well, I mean, we feel like, and again, I I'll
speak for myself because I knowI feel this way at times.
I mean, there are times not onlyis you know, maybe do I have a
soul crushing day with clientswhere I'm just feeling really
heavy and weighed down by justthe stuff they've gone through,
but sometimes it can feel verysoul crushing to like look at
our world, look at our countryand see that things are
happening.
And like, how can we, you know,in my mind, how can I possibly

(27:18):
like live in in a world that'slike this?
You know, how can I keep goingwhen things are so tough, let
alone my clients that I'm tryingto walk with through their
healing journey, you know?
And I think too, that piece forme is like the, you know, what
can I do?
And sure, I could sort of curlup in a ball and just sort of
like, well, that's it, you know,I can't do anything else.
But often for me, what helpswith making some of that meaning

(27:40):
and then connecting to vitalityis what can I do?
You know, and so just likeyou're talking about, you know,
your service to OCA, you know,I've been, you know, I guess a
big part of the Ohio Associationfor Resiliency and Trauma
Counseling and starting that.
And so, you know, for me, likehere's in action, right?
Here's me doing something inaction to try to be there for

(28:02):
our counselors and to advocateand to to help with you know, us
being able to sustain our ownwell-being along with our
careers, you know, and beconfident and capable to help
our clients.
And so being able to do that forme, right, creates a ton of
meaning and it that sense ofpurpose that like, okay, I can't
I can't maybe change the wholeworld, right?

(28:22):
Obviously, I'm one person, but Ican do this work here in this
way in this place, and that ishelping, and that's creating
this this ripple effect, right?
That other people can take andthen they can can feel like they
can keep going and they can keepyou know doing what they want to
do.

SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
Yeah, it's it's important and we need that.
We definitely need that.
When you think about newerpeople to the profession,
whether they're, you know, newlylicensed trainees, still in
their grad programs, justgetting into the profession
profession at this kind of wildtime.

(29:02):
What kind of words ofreassurance or guidance do you
think they need most?

SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Yeah, oh my goodness.
I have so much to say aboutthat.
So I think that I mean careersustainability starts as
students, honestly, and startsas new professionals because
often, and there's not greatstats on this, but often, I
mean, counselors are leaving theprofession within the first
couple of years, or mentalhealth professionals are leaving
the profession, like leaving,leaving within the first couple
of years of starting, or there'ssuch high turnover rates.

(29:28):
I think on average, new mentalhealth professionals stay within
a specific company ororganization for maybe max three
years.
And so, you know, there's a hugevulnerability, I think, for
students and for new counselorsin that, like I said before, I
mean, they're coming in andhere's the expectation, you
know, it's gonna be this reallygreat, wonderful thing.
I'm gonna help people every dayand I'm gonna be a part of their

(29:51):
healing, and it's gonna beamazing.
And oh my gosh, this is gonna bethe best, right?
And then they get in the realityof it and the work is heavy at
times.
And there are rewards, butthere's not to say there's not
rewards, but it's heavy.
They're dealing with, you know,the pressure of now I have to
maintain a caseload.
I have to do paperwork, whichis, you know, documentation
burden is a real thing.
You know, I've got to be incompliance with with my company

(30:12):
policies, with insurancecompany.
There's so many things thatthey're juggling.
Plus, they're new and they'resupposed to have supervision,
right?
Like once a week after they'veseen like 35 clients or 30
clients.
Like that, there's a lot goingon, right?
And so I think one,understanding, hey, like you are
in a like a vulnerable phasedevelopmentally, and that's
okay.
Like you're gonna struggle withsome of these things, and that's

(30:33):
okay.
Like that's very normal.
And like let's help you withlike finding ways to get through
that, whether it's ininternally, you know, you're
working just through your ownstuff, but also like let's build
a sense of community wherehopefully your you know clinical
supervisor is going to be verylike trauma-informed and
resiliency-focused and very muchlike there and partnering with

(30:53):
you to help you like learn andgrow.
And then even with colleagues,right?
Building a system of colleaguesof like these people I can go to
for support and hopefully havingan employer who is also
supportive, right?
Because employers are a big partof career sustainability, right?
We've all worked at places thathave not been great, let's be
honest, you know, and havecaused in even more difficulty

(31:13):
for us to do the work we need todo.
And so, you know, being in a ina work environment that is in
alignment with, you know, ourcore values and that provide the
support that we need.
I think those are huge, youknow, being able to have have
those pieces and and not havethe expectation, especially for
new counselors.
Well, you've graduated, so nowI'm gonna expect you to operate
as if you are a seasonedcounselor, right?

(31:36):
Yeah.
I think we have to adjust ourexpectations as employers or
clinical supervisors to go,okay, they're still really new
at this, and we've got to bereally mindful of how are we
surrounding them with that sortof support and community so that
they can continue to bepassionate about what they do
and not hopefully experiencethat vicarious trauma.

(31:57):
I can remember, I want to say,probably three months, months
into my practicum experience,having my first experience with
vicarious trauma, where a clienttold me a story and my brain did
the thing that it does, which isthat it pictured the entire
thing, like vividly pictured it.
And like to this day, I still,if that comes up for me, I
notice like a physical somaticreaction.

(32:18):
And I had no idea that's whatthat was back then, right?
And so I think that's a bigpiece of it, is that we have a
responsibility as seasonedcounselors or supervisors to
really surround our our studentsand our our new counselors with
that support.

SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Yeah, yeah.
I appreciate you saying that.
I think it's so interesting thatwhen we assess formally or
informally with clients abouttrauma, we talk about witnessing
things, right?
Like where you all you may nothave been a perpetrator, you may

(32:54):
have not been a victim, but youmight have been a witness to it
and acknowledge that that'sreally, you know, like part of
the equation.
But then like we're bearingwitness to a lot every day,
right?
Like, and so we don'tnecessarily always give
ourselves the formal or informalassessment of like, hey, what

(33:15):
are you witnessing?
And that we need community to tosupport ourselves.
Sometimes that comes in theshape of consultation and
supervision and things likethat, and sometimes it comes in
the shape of our own therapy,which like admittedly, like I
do, and we just posted anepisode about like counselor
seeking counseling.

(33:35):
And that it that it's somethingthat like, yeah, depending on
what where we're at.
I remember my internship, Iworked in with an IOP like
substance group, and it was anamazing experience in so many
ways and in transformational inso many ways.

(33:56):
But I mean, there are stories tothis day, and that was over 10
years ago for me, like that I'mlike, I'll never forget them
sharing that and like to yourpoint of imagining it.
And um, I remember in ourinternship class, like when we
were back on campus, kind ofwith my other classmates who
were in internship.
I had confessed that I had had adream about a client who left

(34:20):
the group who like intentionallybut like prematurely.
Yeah, and generally speaking,that meant you know, they
probably had gone back out.
And that that was something thatlike I was really struggling
with because that client hadbeen doing so well.
And so, like, even some of thesituations the client had shared

(34:42):
were problematic, but also likelosing that client, like not
knowing what had happened tothem, right?
Like, was also as a babycounselor, really a challenge
for me.
And so, like, you know, now Ihave maybe tools and have
connected those dots differentlythan I did then.

(35:05):
And obviously, we processed itin internship class.
I don't want to say it was likeminimized, but I think like
having had further distance fromit, it was like, no, it was just
like grieving in a way, and andthat showed up in my unconscious
movie, even so.

SPEAKER_00 (35:24):
Well, and these are things too that like we don't
always identify or pinpoint,right?
Is part of the process.
Again, it's like I'm gonna goout, I'm gonna help people, and
I'm gonna, you know, walk withthem in their healing, I'm gonna
be a good counselor, but wedon't always recognize or
identify that like they're thehuman part, you know, that we've
you were talking about before,like we're human and like we are
gonna experience things too, andit's you know, grief and loss,
but we're gonna experiencesometimes those trauma

(35:45):
reactions.
And even for myself, I mean, Iand this is not to be braggy,
but I, you know, I considermyself to be like a trauma
expert, right?
I've been doing this for a long,long, long, long time.
And I didn't even recognize thatI had experienced vicarious
trauma until I started the workon my dissertation, you know,
and I started going through, andyou know, I knew that there were
some things I was experiencing.

(36:05):
I'm like, okay, this is probablya little bit like adjacent, but
like I could identify identifyit with other people and be
like, oh yeah, they must behaving vicarious trauma, right?
And then I started going throughit and digging into it and
really understanding like whatdoes this mean and how does it
look?
And I was like, oh, when I walkinto a restaurant and I pick
this seat that I can see thewhole room, you know, my back is
not to anybody, that's vicarioustrauma, right?

(36:26):
If I'm, you know, I don't know,driving over a bridge, and like
for some reason my brain justgoes, like, what if my car
drives off the bridge and itgoes in the water and whatever,
you know, and I have nointention of that happening,
right?
But like my brain takes thiswhole vivid loop.
That's vicarious trauma, right?
And that's not necessarilyconnected to like I had a client
that had this happen, right?
But we become sometimes reallyhyper-vigilant and don't realize

(36:48):
it.
And so then it's like thisrecognition of here are these
pieces that have affected me.
Oh, this is where this comesfrom.
And that's that's okay, right?
It's okay because this is thework we do, it's gonna happen.
And then the what do we do aboutit, right?
How do we support each other?
How do we support again,students and and new counselors
who don't have that experience?
So they don't know, they don'thave the context to understand

(37:10):
it in, right?
Whereas we may be being in thisfor a longer time, we have more
context.
We can go, oh yeah, that doeshappen, you know.
But when you're new, you'relike, I don't understand this,
right?
Or yeah.
I was like, I had a dream abouta client.
Yeah, no, like this can be like,oh my gosh, what's wrong with
you?
Maybe you're not equipped forthis, maybe you're not confident
to do this profession.
You probably should get out,right?
Like there's a lot of pressureand fear.

(37:31):
And I I just want to normalizethat, right?
That like we're gonna experiencethose things and to have a
support system in place, whetherit's within the professional
side or even personally, youknow, to be able to cope with
that.
Yeah.
And then to go, okay, but thisisn't it, right?
Like there's more.
And so you asked before aboutvicarious trauma and that idea
of vicarious transformation.

(37:53):
And what's really cool aboutthis is sure, we're gonna
experience things like vicarioustrauma, where, you know, my
belief about the world being asafe place.
Yeah, I don't believe thatanymore, right?
Yeah, like that's vicarioustrauma.
I don't believe that.
But what has happened is thatI've I've expanded my
perception.
And so I can say, yeah, I don'tthink that the world is a safe

(38:14):
place, but I do know that I canmake this part of my world safe,
right?
Yeah, or I can create safety inthis way so that I feel safe in
this world.
And I wouldn't have been able todo that, right?
Had I not been in this work, hadI not been a counselor.
I mean, maybe I could havegotten there, but I think doing
this work has helped me reallyshift and expand my beliefs and

(38:35):
expand my perception, or, youknow, the world is all good or
all bad, right?
We always want to be in thesedichotomies.
Well, for me now, like the worldis good and bad.
And ultimately, I just want tobe a part of helping things be
good in this world, you know?
And so I think that's a piece ofit, right?
Is that, you know, yes, we mighthave these really challenging
negative aspects that that we'redealing with.

(38:58):
And, you know, because of whatthe those this work that I've
done, you know, I'm able to haveso much more compassion and
empathy for people.
I'm able to understand howsomething gets from point A to
point B to point C much in muchmore context than I could ever,
and and understand it in anon-judgmental way, right?
Like it has enhanced my abilitynot only to be a good counselor,

(39:19):
but to be like a good human, youknow?
And even valuing like, you know,the the positive things that are
in my life, right?
Or knowing that if I'm goingthrough a tough time in my
personal life, that like I canget through it.
Like there are so many aspectsof that for me that you know,
yeah when I look at my growth asa as a counselor and personally,

(39:40):
like I've had so much growthbecause of the work we've done,
and that has shifted totransformation for me.
And not that it owns trouble,right?
But that my perspective of thatis so much bigger, right?
It's it's so much more holisticnow.
And that really benefits me.

SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah.
You got my wheels spinning,Alicia.
I keep thinking of all theselike things where I'm like, yep,
and we get to like speaking oflike witnessing and things like
that, we get to bear witness tolike growth of others and like
like celebration things.
Like I think of times that I'vecried with clients because I am

(40:21):
maybe more of a sentimentalperson and I'm not like weeping,
but like I get tyrided a lot,like especially when I like
something positive has happenedfor clients and like news that
they share with me, and I andlike maybe I'm not expecting it
and being like, oh my gosh, andlike good thing I have my
tissues here at my desk becauseI'm like having to blot my my

(40:45):
eyes, like someone cuttingonions in here, because we we
get to witness those things aswell, and that that can be
really transformative,especially knowing the that good
and bad that that maybe exist inmutuality.

SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I for me it is such anhonor and such a privilege to do
this work, even with all thedifficult stuff, the heavy
stuff, like to be able to sitwith my client and and watch
them go from this point where Idon't know that I can ever get
through this.
I don't think I can ever heal.
And to watch them go from thereto like they've written their
college application.
And now they want to be acounselor, you know.

(41:23):
Like, talk about tearing up in asession, right?
Like you're just like, or forme, I'm just like, oh my
goodness, like what an honor tobe able to walk with somebody
through the most painful thingsthey've ever been through that
have created so much maybedarkness for their their
themselves within themselves,right?
In their lives.
And to see them go from thatpoint to going to like, hey,
yes, this thing has affected me.

(41:44):
And obviously it has, you know,shifted and changed the the
direction of my life, but also Iknow who I am now and I know
what I can do, and I know that Ican keep healing and I can keep
moving forward.
And, you know, for me, a lot oftimes when I come back to how do
I connect with vitality, it'sremembering how privileged and
how honored I feel that peopletrust me with that, you know,

(42:05):
and allow me to come on thatjourney with them.

SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As like more seasonedprofessionals and supervisors,
leaders in the field, like howdo you think we can create more
of that culture ofsustainability versus like a
culture where there's a lot ofself-sacrifice and a lack of

(42:29):
self-care?

SPEAKER_00 (42:30):
Yeah, you know, I it always starts with in inside,
right?
Inside of us.
It always starts there with one,I mean, again, recognizing and
being aware of, you know, wheream I at, and then being aware of
like how can I then put that outthere, right?
You know, so for myself, right?
Like now I'm on this thing wherelike if I'm presenting at a

(42:51):
conference or if I'm teaching ina class or if I'm supervising or
if I'm talking to a friend, youknow, even a friend, like there
are many times that I'm justtalking about this stuff of
like, hey, you know, either I,you know, I'm looking for that,
that, that sort of listeningear, or I'm even just sharing.
Like, here's where I'mexperiencing, you know, my
ability to keep going, myability to be excited and

(43:12):
passionate.
And I, you know, I think there'san element of that too, of we we
are creating communities andspaces for that.
You know, I think we talk a lotabout, and the research talks a
lot about vicarious trauma andburnout and all the bad things,
right?
Oh, here's, you know, you'regonna feel if you hear someone's
trauma story, you're gonna feelthis way.
Or if you're dealing with aclient in this, you're gonna

(43:33):
feel anger and depression andsadness and hopelessness and
blah blah, you know, all thethings, right?
And yes, yes, that's true.
But we don't always talk about,and there's very little research
about things like vicariouspost-traumatic growth and
meaning making and the positiveaspects of doing the work that
we do.
And I think that we createcommunities and spaces where we
really talk about that.
Hey, we're gonna talk aboutboth.

(43:55):
And we're gonna talk about likewhat do you need in this moment
or what do we need in thismoment collectively to get
through and to be, you know,looking at both sides of it.

SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (44:07):
I love that.
Yeah.
And the meaning making is sopersonal, but it's important as
a person.
What are maybe some of thepractices, whether they're
clinical, spiritual, relational,reflective, help you stay
connected to your own meaning asa counselor?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
Wow, that's a that's a big question.
You know, I think about like asa whole, you know, like we
talked a lot about things like,you know, aligning with core
values, having a support systempersonally and professionally,
you know, being aware of what'shappening, you know, internally,
you know, being aware of thatkind of stuff.
Also using coping skills, right?

(44:49):
I think coping skills help aswell.
You know, these are all kinds ofthings that like the that will
help us with meaning making.
But I also think too, it's it'sbeing intentional, right?
Like, what gives me meaning?
Does that thing that gave memeaning five years ago still
give me meaning?
Is it still helping or has itshifted, right?
Has it evolved into somethingelse?

(45:10):
And I think sometimes, maybe forme, you know, my meaning making
is sometimes connected to mywell-being, right?
Like, yeah, not just wellness,because we, you know, wellness
becomes this has become thisword, right?
That is very like, oh wellness,I'll take like a bubble bath
with rose petals and you know,whatever and it's gonna be so
great.
Like I did wellness today.
And so, and and that actuallysounds amazing, I'll be honest.

(45:31):
I would love if that was what Icould do every day to feel good.
I mean, two thumbs up.
So I'm not, you know, sayingthat's bad.
We're not trashing it, we'rejust saying it extends beyond
that.
Like, you know, I think when wethink about well-being, our own
well-being, right?
Like if I'm in a space where I'mable, you know, to feel okay,

(45:53):
right?
Or cope through things that aredifficult.
And, you know, whether it'sdoing things that I enjoy,
whether it's spending time withmy family or my friends, whether
it's doing my the work that I'mdoing, you know, I think there
are aspects of meaning-makingthat if if my well-being is is
I'm sustaining that, then that'shelping me continue to make
meaning of what I'm doing.
When I'm not doing so great withmy well-being, right, that

(46:15):
obviously goes down some, itbecomes a barrier.
And so, you know, I do thinkthat when people are able to
kind of think about it in thatway, and then what can I do to
promote my well-being, then thatsort of folds into then being
able to make meaning a littleeasier.

SPEAKER_01 (46:33):
I like that.
Yeah.
Making it like personal, notjust about the meaning, but
personal about like how are wetending to ourselves?
Yeah.
For counselors who might sort offeel like, you know, I'm about
ready to check out, like interms of this profession, I'm at
the end of my rope.
Like, what's maybe one reframethat that you would offer them

(46:56):
so that they could know moreabout like their resilience,
their impact, their worth?

SPEAKER_00 (47:01):
Yeah.
Wow.
I feel like that would be like awhole, that would be a whole lot
of stuff.
I mean, I think the first thingI would be want to say would be
like, don't do it.
Wait, hold on.
Just not push yourself more, butlike, let's pause.
Let's do it, let's have a pauseand let's really reflect on, you
know, what are the things thatare causing you to feel that
way?
Like what are these barriersthat are being presented to you
right now?

(47:22):
And I'm I'm very much a problemsolver.
And so when I think about careersustainability, I think about,
okay, there's so many levels.
There's the individual, there'sthe you know, smaller circle,
there's a bigger circle as asystem, you know.
And so I think about, okay, manythings for me, I feel like we
can figure out a workaround,right?
Well, if one of the barriers,and you're saying I want to be

(47:42):
out of this, I'm done, and youidentify, well, a barrier that I
have is that I'm in a workenvironment that has really high
productivity and anddocumentation expectations, and
that's killing me right now,like, you know, figuratively.
Well, let's talk about that.
So, do we need to maybe shiftthe environment?
Do we need to shift the the thewhere you're at, you know?
And then does doing that, doesthat help you with feeling like

(48:05):
I can get back to why I'm doingthis work?
I can get back to that passionand that connection to vitality.
Or maybe it's like, you know,they're feeling burnt out and
it's, you know, well, hey, we'vejust discovered you're seeing 30
clients a week.
That's a lot of clients a week,right?
That's probably more than fulltime if we're really being
honest in terms of I don't see30 clients a week either.

(48:25):
I think that has helped me besustainable because that's a lot
of people.
But again, you know, there arepeople that do that, and some
people can handle that, but it,you know, there's no right or
wrong necessarily.
But if they're saying I'm seeing30 clients a week and I'm
feeling really burnt out, I'mreally like stressed, I'm really
tired, I'm gonna go, hey, so dowe need to see 30 clients a
week, or is it possible to shifta little bit?
Like, would lessening thatcaseload help you feel like you

(48:49):
can keep doing the work?
Because I always feel likethere's there's something that's
happening right within there,within that work, that if we can
identify and address thespecifics of what is causing you
to feel this way, and then wecan maybe address those and and
fix those, that maybe helps.
And then comment to that, Ithink preventative stuff too.
Like before we get to a pointwhere we're feeling so much

(49:10):
vicarious trauma that we can'tfunction, or so much burnout
that we can't function, thatwe're identifying it early and
implementing supports early, youknow.

SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm like in my head, I'mthinking of my own personal
experiences too, of like justlike the evolution we have.
Like, I also remember, and formany reasons now, I'm not like
this, but as a newer counselor,feeling like the need to
document more.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:38):
Oh my gosh, I wrote books.
Why was I doing that?

SPEAKER_01 (49:41):
And that but that like right, that contributes to
some of that too, because if I'mseeing 30 people a week and
having feeling the need todocument so much that like that
we're maybe, you know, we'rewe're thinking like, okay, if
that's a common theme amongstNew York counselors, what can we
do to maybe whether it's in gradprograms or just in like

(50:06):
workshops and things like helpyou manage that differently,
right?
Like give you the tools to know,like, this is what I need to
document, like to be compliant,right?
Okay, we could do that withouthaving to like maybe burn out in
the same ways.

SPEAKER_00 (50:22):
So and interestingly, I mean, one of
when you look at the research,and even like when I did my own
research, like the majority ofthe people that felt that
burnout didn't necessarily feela burnout from the direct work
with clients.
The majority of them feltburnout because of the
administrative tasks, because ofthe employer expectations,
because of the insurance-drivencare.

(50:44):
I mean, there it was it for themost part, the the majority of
people feel in the burnout wasbecause of those things.
And so I think systemically, ifwe can address that, you know,
and yeah, we get into it becausewe like working with people.

SPEAKER_01 (50:56):
It's the other stuff that maybe is like challenging,
not impossible, but like can wereduce those barriers or create
better systems for them?

SPEAKER_00 (51:05):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So it's kind of top-down too.
Like, sure, individually thereare things that we should be
doing and can be doing, and thateven, you know, or we're just
supporting students and newcounselors, but I think
systemically we've got tocontinue to shift and change and
make things more conducive tocontinue to keep people in our
profession.
Because again, we have a hugeshortage, you know, like there
are not enough of us in general,and that's not okay, especially

(51:26):
in this day and age.

SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
Yeah, we need more.
If you're thinking aboutcounselors in Ohio specifically,
who maybe are really feelingoverwhelmed, stretched thin
because of these shortages, andreally questioning their
capacity at this moment.
What kind of final message ofhope do you want them to carry

(51:50):
into the rest of this year andthe new year?

SPEAKER_00 (51:53):
Yeah, I mean, I I think there's always hope.
And maybe that's partly whathelps me keep doing the work
too, is I just really believethat there is always hope.
And so that's just first of all,is that there's always hope.
There's always something.
And, you know, if what'shappening right now for somebody
isn't working, that's okay,right?
That makes sense based on thethings that we've talked about

(52:15):
today, right?
It makes complete sense whenthings aren't working.
And, you know, I would encouragepeople to, you know, not only
try to figure out are thereworkarounds, right?
Is there a way for me tocontinue to do what I'm
passionate about, you know, butin maybe a different way or to
be be creative in that?
But I would also just encouragethat that stepping back and

(52:37):
looking at, you know, again,vitality.
How can I connect with vitality?
Are there things that arebecoming barriers for me to
connecting?
Because I think if if we're ableto connect with the vitality and
we're able to really lean intothat, then the challenges that
we experience become moremanageable.
They become things we feel likewe can figure out a way through.

SPEAKER_01 (52:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I appreciate that.
There's always hope.
So for those of you wholistened, you knew this question
was coming.
If this is your first timelistening, we ask this question
to every guest.
The name of the podcast iscalled Ohio Counseling
Conversations.
And so, whether it's related towhat you've shared today or

(53:20):
maybe something different, whatimportant conversations do you
think counseling professionalsshould be having with each other
andor their clients in ourstate?

SPEAKER_00 (53:30):
Yeah.
So I I mean, again, I I think itjust continues to go back to the
how do we create community, youknow, whether it's with you
know, amongst ourselves, how dowe create community around the
things that are challenging, butalso in the ways that sort of
lift each other up and buildeach other up.
And ultimately that thattrickles down to our clients as
well, right?

(53:50):
You know, that if we areconnected to vitality, if we're
able to maintain our well-being,maintain our career
sustainability, ultimately thatthat goes and benefits our
clients.
It benefits the profession as awhole.
And so I think it's that youknow, building that sense of
community and really being ableto support each other, you know,

(54:12):
through that work is that we cankeep down what we're passionate
about.

SPEAKER_01 (54:16):
There's a ripple effect, but like it starts with
community.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (54:23):
Can I ask one last question, kind of to to
piggyback off of this?
Is like what communities do haveyou found personally like
helpful?

SPEAKER_00 (54:31):
Yeah.
That's a great question.
I definitely I have I have a setof colleagues who are also, I
mean, they've become very goodfriends.
And so they're people that I candefinitely go to when I'm like,
I'm having a heavy day, or evento celebrate things, right?
There's times that I'll be like,oh my goodness, like this really
cool thing happened today.
And you know, they just havingthem celebrate me with this with
me is really like fulfilling.

(54:54):
And, you know, I mentionedbefore about with the Ohio
Association for Resiliency andTrauma Counseling.
I think that has been a bigaspect for me of being able to
not only put what I'm passionateabout into action, but we've
been building this sort of senseof community and helping, you
know, counselors be able to feelequipped and competent to do

(55:14):
this heavy work, but also, youknow, focusing on some of that
well-being and resiliency, youknow, and that has been kind of
a cool thing to see grow and tosee how people have been
connecting with each otherwithin that that division too.
And obviously OCA, a little plugfor OCA as well.
I feel like it's definitely beenin my community for a long time.
So probably actually since I wasa master's student.

SPEAKER_01 (55:37):
So same, yeah.
And I like I I know that maybenot everyone listening is a
member of OCA, and certainlysoft plug, like there is value
in that because of these othercommunities.
And I've I've found thatincredibly helpful when I need a
consultation or when I need tofeel less isolated.

(56:01):
That that's been reallypowerful.
I always feel like the All OhioCounselors Conference, I like
liken it to summer camp.
Yes, because I'm like, oh, I getto see my community like once a
year and like get to you knowlearn, but also like have this
connection in the community thatI might have a lot virtually
throughout the year, but thatthat we get to spend some of

(56:23):
that time together.
So I also find it valuable.
But I appreciate you sharingyour own personal experiences
and giving this message of hopebecause I think right now it is
so needed.
So, Alicia, thank you so muchfor joining us today and being
here.
And thank you for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks for tuning in to OhioCounseling Conversations, the

(56:44):
official podcast of the OhioCounsel Association.
If you enjoyed this episode,we'd love for you to subscribe,
leave a review, and share itwith a colleague.
To learn more about the OhioCounsel Association and how to
get involved, visitOhioCounseling.org or find us on
our socials linked in the shownotes.
Until next time, take care andkeep showing up for the work and

(57:08):
conversations that matter.

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Conversation 37 - Sustaining Counselors Through Shortages and Strain

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Conversation 37 - Sustaining Counselors Through Shortages and Strain