June 17, 2025 • 20 mins
Counselors Victoria Frazier and Marisa Cargilll tackle "the tissue issue," unpacking the subtle yet significant implications of how counselors handle tissues when clients cry. They explore opposing perspectives about whether handing tissues to crying clients is supportive or potentially disruptive to emotional processing as well as how:
- More traditional counseling approaches advise against handing tissues to avoid implying clients should stop crying
- Offering tissues can sometimes be a show of support and acknowledgment of difficult emotions
- Different approaches may be needed based on the individual client and therapeutic relationship
- In telehealth settings, counselors can adapt by suggesting clients keep tissues nearby
- Using tissues as grounding tools or placing them within client's reach offers a middle-ground approach
- Many clients apologize for crying, revealing societal messages that tears are unwelcome
- Counselors can normalize emotional expression by explicitly stating therapy is a safe space for tears
- Sometimes gentle humor helps clients feel comfortable with their emotional expression
- Quality tissues matter – "one-ply tissue is just not going to cut it"
- The "tissue issue" reflects deeper values about how therapists create warmth and authenticity in sessions
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Kailey Bradley, Marisa Cargill, Victoria Frazier, Linda Marcel-Rene & Kendra Thornton
·Editing by Leah Wood & Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to let's Unpack that a short-form segment
from Ohio CounselingConversations, where we dig into
the topics, tools and truthsthat shape our work as
counselors.
Whether it's a trending issue,a clinical insight or something
we've all been thinking about,we're here to process it
together.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the first episode of let's Unpack that.
My name is Victoria Frazier andI'm Marissa Gargiel, and today
we're unpacking the tissue issue.
One of my favorite things toexplain to people who aren't as
familiar with the counselingspace is how long we can talk
about tissues where the tissuebox is.
If we should be allowed totouch the tissue box, I feel
(00:47):
like it can go on for hours,like I could talk about it
forever.
It's it seems so like simpleand it seems like day one kind
of stuff.
But I think when you'repracticing intentionally, like
it matters so much how you'reshowing up to the space, yeah,
and like how we interact withour clients is so important, and
(01:07):
it's like I feel like the basisof everything that we do, like
right.
If that is off, they're notgoing to get what they need out
of our sessions and so, like Idon't know, I think baby
counselors get in their headabout it, and then I think older
counselors have such strongopinions about what they should
and shouldn't do.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh, yeah, I've seen it even on TikTok, like people
saying, well, I learned this ingrad school, but like, is that
like?
And some people think it's thegreatest thing I ever learned,
but uh, they're, it's highlydebated right.
Yeah, and I feel like it'shighly debated right.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, and I feel like it's hard to understand if
you're not someone who isproviding, like doing this kind
of work, like why it matters somuch.
So like I feel like the generalconsensus we all are presented
when we're in grad school islike do not touch the tissue box
.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Don't hand the tissue , no Right.
But the implication from thatmessage is because it's like
you're saying, stop crying.
Like you're okay, like sort ofthe way, like parents, like
traditionally not all parentsright, but like where we feel
(02:20):
like you're fine, you're okay,like dust it off, like it's fine
.
Or like don're fine, you'reokay, like dust it off, like
it's fine.
Or like don't cause a scene.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, Like it's too much and like we always
want clients to feel comfortable, right, Because it's like this
is the place for big feelings.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And so Does the tissue say they're not welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yes, or that they have like a time limit on them,
like they need to only last forso long, like you cried enough
now.
Yeah, everyone's favorite thingto hear, that's enough.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, yeah, and that like it can derail people from
sort of sitting with thatfeeling or exploring that
feeling a bit more by likeoffering it.
That's kind of the don't handthe tissue conversation, the
hands off side of the equation.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
And I think it was one of my first moments where I
was like I don't know that Ifully can get on board with this
in grad school.
Like I think sometimes clientsneed us to show up in different
ways, like depending on who theyare and how their journey has
(03:39):
been, like I don't know.
I think sometimes, like handingthe tissue can be showing up in
more of a physical way and itcan kind of say like hey, I see
what's going on and I recognizethat this is hard for you, and
it can be kind of like a show ofsupport.
I don't know that I've evergiven someone a tissue and
they've like shut down entirely.
(04:01):
Yeah, I also think I'm prettycareful with who I'm doing that
with.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, so knowing like your client is an important
part of the equation too of isthis disruptive or supportive
kind of um, yeah, like that?
There can be some positivereasons to do that.
(04:25):
It's been a minute for me.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I work solely in telehealth, so I don't have the
opportunity to hand the tissuein this space, but I think when
in those spaces that sometimesit's also like acknowledging
(04:49):
their feelings by doing it andoffering it.
Yeah, I mean like would youever say, like do you need a
tissue?
Or like do you?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
ever offer permission to like go grab one.
Oh yeah, all the time.
I think, depending on, maybe,what the modality I might be
using is in like with aparticular client, I might even
sort of encourage that theyassure they have some nearby uh,
(05:14):
like when working with likeEMDR, because it can get heavy
at times.
I say, like you know, havinggrounding um objects nearby is
helpful, but also might behelpful to have tissues nearby,
depending on what comes up forus, right?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
That's interesting.
I never thought about it beingdependent on modality.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You know, I don't think it needs to be.
I think, especially becausethere's maybe some expectation
that can get you know, um heavyin a multitude of ways, it's
just an even more important like, I guess, preparation tool, and
(05:57):
I don't think that that, thoughexclusively exists.
With just that modality, Ithink we can say, especially in
an informed consent type way oflike, hey, telehealth is here
and I want you to feel reallycomfortable, and so that for
some people might look likehaving tissues nearby.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, oh, that's such a good point as like a
grounding tool too.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, yeah, I also like, I feel like I was probably
Switzerland when I was workingin person with students and
clients too, because I wouldmake sure that they were always
within arm's reach of my clientso that they were accessible.
I could honor their autonomy ifthey wanted a tissue, but I
(06:44):
didn't have to be the one thathanded it to them, but they knew
they were there.
Like that, they were alwaysaccessible.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I feel like that's a good like middle ground is
having them within arm's reachand letting them know that
they're there, maybe during likeone of their first appointments
, and then it's.
It's a little subtler to belike you can just point it.
Sometimes I just point yeah,and like a gentle point, not an
(07:10):
aggressive point.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, I think I have plenty of people in telehealth
who are like I need to grabsomething and I'm like go for it
, right.
You know, like um I I don't tryto interrupt what their needs
are.
If they feel like that'ssomething that they need to and
it's not nearby Like yeah, dowhat feels um authentic in that
(07:32):
moment for you.
But I get like why handing itmight also be like useful and
like I see you right.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, I think it's hard, like when you first meet a
client, to know how they'regoing to react.
I would say that maybe for SESH, we're not like throwing
tissues at people, but if, likein the past, they've said like I
feel really alone when I cry orlike I don't like to cry in
front of people, it can be likea supportive measure, like
(08:05):
you're kind of lifting them upand being like hey, I get you.
I also think and this mightalso be kind of controversial
Like sometimes clients make mecry a little bit.
Like I'm never incapable ofengaging with them, but
sometimes, like I leak a littlebit and I think it can be a good
opportunity to like modelself-care by you getting your
own tissue.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And, yeah, I sort of honor that with myself by having
tissues nearby so that, if thathappens, I am able to utilize
that.
Sometimes it's helpful to bringthat into the conversation to
show that we're feeling with,and sometimes it may not feel
(08:46):
appropriate, right, and a lot ofthat is dependent on that
relationship that you have withthe client, things that they've
shared with you.
I find myself maybe like thisexpands beyond just the tissue
issue, of just normalizing thatthis is a safe place for tears,
Because, whether it's societally, generationally, familial,
(09:10):
there's often the message thattears are not welcome and I try
to clarify, like it's not mygoal to make you cry, right, but
like, if you do happen to cryor tears happen to come up in
session, that maybe thoseemotions and those feelings are
asking to be felt and normalized, that like that's okay and that
(09:34):
, like this is this, is a safeplace to do that.
And you know it's never likesomething you need to feel
apologetic for, because I get alot of people who apologize for
crying right, like as if they'vedone something wrong, and so I
just sort of say, like this isone place that, like you should
(09:54):
never have to feel like it's a,you know an apology for crying
Like this is full on permitted.
You have permission to do thathere, no matter the explanation.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, I have lots of clients who apologize when they
start crying and obviously, likethat is a good, like go-to
response like this is where wecome to feel, um, very Nicole
Kidman, like heartbreak feelsgood in a place like this at the
AMC theaters.
Um, I I also think sometimeslike, if clients are like so
(10:28):
uncomfortable, it can be like aopportunity for humor in the
session, like I always, likesometimes, I'll say like I love
when people cry, like you're notgoing to bother me.
I say like I don't like show upto work ready, like excited for
it, but I think it shows a lotof trust in session.
I think it shows that, likeyou're showing up authentically
as yourself, you're lettingyourself like take up a lot of
(10:49):
space, because I feel like a lot, of, a lot of my clients I work
with a lot of kids and teens.
Um, especially like my anxiousteen girls try to make
themselves so small and theynever want to bother people, and
so it's like I I always pointout I'm like, hey, this is the
biggest you've ever been in hereand I can't wait until you like
take up the whole room.
Like this is not something tobe embarrassed about.
(11:12):
I'm not saying you can't feelembarrassed because like they
should feel how they feel Right.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Validating that, yeah , yeah.
When you have those kinds ofsituations, tori, like what um,
or how do you handle the tissueissue there?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
issue there Some.
That's such a good question.
So like I think that I wouldprobably do a point with that,
like when we're feeling nuts notto get too specific, but like I
feel like I'd be like, and justso you know they're still over
there Um, or sometimes I'll,I'll say like I just put a fresh
box out so like don't be afraidto get in there, there's plenty
left.
I think, especially when we'refeeling like small and we should
(11:58):
be hiding about it, it's niceto bring like some lightness to
it If that's something theclient enjoys.
I know that most of my clientswe love to laugh and like gossip
and so usually that's kind ofI'm not the most like serious,
like lab Cody clipboard, kind ofgirl in session, um, if you
(12:19):
can't tell me everything aboutme, and so, um, I usually kind
of like fall back on my likelaugh, laugh, moments of
laughter.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, like bringing levity to the session.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, because sometimes they are like really
big feelings that need to befelt deeply, and sometimes it's
just like this is a byproduct ofthe situation that we're in and
it's not the worst thing, Ithink.
Ultimately it really like it'sno one's favorite answer, like I
feel like whenever you ask aquestion in grad school and you
get this answer, you're kind oflike OK, but like it really
(12:53):
depends.
It depends on the client, itdepends on the therapeutic
relationship.
I also think sometimes you canhand the tissue with the
intention of it being a messageof like hey, it's like if we're
getting close to the end of asession, sometimes I'll use the
tissue as like a way to be likehere's this.
(13:14):
I don't want you to feel rushed, but also like yeah, we are, we
do have a schedule to keep Timehere.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I had a professor in my dog program who
would not let us use it dependsas an answer.
That because essentially we knowthat it depends Right, that
because essentially we know thatit depends right.
Like that that's the obvious andeasy choice.
But like taking a side or or astance, um, was kind of the
purpose of like well, what doyou feel more of about this?
(13:45):
Or like more so like trying tohelp us with understanding maybe
our own orientation to some ofthese topics.
It was a theories course, solike, especially like the
theoretical orientations andpersonalizing that some of the
way.
But in reality and in practicewe know that like having it
(14:08):
depends as an answer is sort ofmore aligned with like how we
navigate clinical decisionmaking, because it does depend
on the client, the relationship,maybe even not just like the
client, like therapeuticmodalities or interventions, but
like the modality of like howwe meet, how you know in person,
(14:31):
is it like within, even like acouple's or family dynamic, like
who's in the room, that there'sall of these other like
elements that are going to helpus sort of land on the best
decision for the person who mayor may not need the tissue.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's so funny, like, like I said at the
beginning, like it seems like avery simple issue, but then,
when you really take some timeto think about it, there's so
many mitigating factors and wehave to make so many little
decisions throughout a sessionthat, like all of them can kind
of come together into, like,does this person need a tissue
right now?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(15:12):
Well, um, I also think like toyour point about like, how we're
practicing.
So much of counseling is soevidence-based and we're really
focused on, like, what the datasays, but also there's like a
personal touch and an art formto it as well, of like, maybe
you're very anti-tissue andthat's how you present to your
clients and um, so, yeah, asmuch as it depends.
(15:33):
It's kind of a cop-out answeryeah, yeah it does.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It's like the blend of maybe the evidence as well as
like how we feel as humans andhow we want to show up
authentically as counselors,like Like um, I I oftentimes
will try to like elaborate onthings, so I I love giving an
example, um to help make it makesense for people, right, like
(15:59):
metaphors or any kind of example, um, sometimes even like
riddled with someself-disclosure, so they
understand.
It's like this happens toeveryone.
It's like I'm a counselor and Iknow a lot of things about how,
like air quotes, we're supposedto maybe navigate things in
like mature and healthy ways andlike I still fall short, right,
(16:20):
like I still mess up.
I'm not perfect, um, but one ofthe things I think I often will
talk about, especially in likeenvironment and creating spaces,
I talk about like how I wantpeople to feel when they see my
picture on the screen that Idon't like have like a green
screen background because thatfeels impersonal to me and I I
(16:44):
try to make it look warm hereand so that like they feel
comfortable in the ways that Ihave control over the same way I
would if they were sitting inmy office physically, but that
we can create that and if I wantto provide warmth to my clients
.
Sometimes the tissue is a goodmove.
(17:06):
Right Like that shows who I amand we can also say how we want
them to interpret that gesture.
Right Like I'm not telling youto stop, I just want you to have
this in case you need it.
Right Like we don't always haveto say like just the action is
(17:29):
interpreted without any context.
Right Like I think of informedconsent as like, yes, it's a
formal part of like what we do,but we can inform people like
I'm narrating as I'm doing this.
Right Like this is theintention and that's modeling in
some ways too of like justhealthy communication oh yeah,
(17:50):
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And I I love what you said about creating warmth and
like comfort, because and thisis my final point but if you're
handing me a one ply tissue,it's just not going to cut it.
It's just not going to cut it.
I need, I need, I need a puffsplus lotion something not not
sponsored, but like I need aquality tissue, not an ad don't
(18:13):
get it twisted but I need asubstantial tissue in my
counseling space as a client andas a counselor that I can rely
on.
That, I know, is my, my, my oldfaithful.
One day I'm going to get one ofthose like grandmother tissue
caddies, you know, like whenthey put the little thing over
the box.
I feel like that's going to bemy brand when I grow up.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
There are so many cool ones.
Got a hot one down they mightshow up on your algorithm now,
but there are many cool umexamples.
I've seen plenty.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I could get so into like a tissue algorithm, a
tissue box.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I hope that we're not creating that space for
everyone, but if we are, you'llhave to send us some of your
favorites.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, please.
Well, as much as I genuinelycould keep talking about this
for probably a couple hours,that, I think, is going to wrap
up our inaugural episode oflet's Unpack that.
Make sure you're subscribed soyou never miss an update.
If you have questions, feedbackor a topic you'd like us to
(19:18):
unpack, be sure to drop us aline.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
You can send us a text or connect with our socials
in the show notes.
Thanks for joining us for let'sUnpack that brought to you by
Ohio Counseling Conversationsand the Ohio Counseling
Association.
If it sparks something for you,share it with a colleague or
drop us a line.
We'd love to keep theconversation going.
Thanks for listening and untilnext time we encourage you to
keep unpacking the big stuff,one conversation at a time.
(19:41):
You
Welcome to let's Unpack that a short-form segment
from Ohio CounselingConversations, where we dig into
the topics, tools and truthsthat shape our work as
counselors.
Whether it's a trending issue,a clinical insight or something
we've all been thinking about,we're here to process it
together.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the first episode of let's Unpack that.
My name is Victoria Frazier andI'm Marissa Gargiel, and today
we're unpacking the tissue issue.
One of my favorite things toexplain to people who aren't as
familiar with the counselingspace is how long we can talk
about tissues where the tissuebox is.
If we should be allowed totouch the tissue box, I feel
(00:47):
like it can go on for hours,like I could talk about it
forever.
It's it seems so like simpleand it seems like day one kind
of stuff.
But I think when you'repracticing intentionally, like
it matters so much how you'reshowing up to the space, yeah,
and like how we interact withour clients is so important, and
(01:07):
it's like I feel like the basisof everything that we do, like
right.
If that is off, they're notgoing to get what they need out
of our sessions and so, like Idon't know, I think baby
counselors get in their headabout it, and then I think older
counselors have such strongopinions about what they should
and shouldn't do.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh, yeah, I've seen it even on TikTok, like people
saying, well, I learned this ingrad school, but like, is that
like?
And some people think it's thegreatest thing I ever learned,
but uh, they're, it's highlydebated right.
Yeah, and I feel like it'shighly debated right.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, and I feel like it's hard to understand if
you're not someone who isproviding, like doing this kind
of work, like why it matters somuch.
So like I feel like the generalconsensus we all are presented
when we're in grad school islike do not touch the tissue box
.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Don't hand the tissue , no Right.
But the implication from thatmessage is because it's like
you're saying, stop crying.
Like you're okay, like sort ofthe way, like parents, like
traditionally not all parentsright, but like where we feel
(02:20):
like you're fine, you're okay,like dust it off, like it's fine
.
Or like don're fine, you'reokay, like dust it off, like
it's fine.
Or like don't cause a scene.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, Like it's too much and like we always
want clients to feel comfortable, right, Because it's like this
is the place for big feelings.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And so Does the tissue say they're not welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yes, or that they have like a time limit on them,
like they need to only last forso long, like you cried enough
now.
Yeah, everyone's favorite thingto hear, that's enough.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, yeah, and that like it can derail people from
sort of sitting with thatfeeling or exploring that
feeling a bit more by likeoffering it.
That's kind of the don't handthe tissue conversation, the
hands off side of the equation.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
And I think it was one of my first moments where I
was like I don't know that Ifully can get on board with this
in grad school.
Like I think sometimes clientsneed us to show up in different
ways, like depending on who theyare and how their journey has
(03:39):
been, like I don't know.
I think sometimes, like handingthe tissue can be showing up in
more of a physical way and itcan kind of say like hey, I see
what's going on and I recognizethat this is hard for you, and
it can be kind of like a show ofsupport.
I don't know that I've evergiven someone a tissue and
they've like shut down entirely.
(04:01):
Yeah, I also think I'm prettycareful with who I'm doing that
with.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, so knowing like your client is an important
part of the equation too of isthis disruptive or supportive
kind of um, yeah, like that?
There can be some positivereasons to do that.
(04:25):
It's been a minute for me.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I work solely in telehealth, so I don't have the
opportunity to hand the tissuein this space, but I think when
in those spaces that sometimesit's also like acknowledging
(04:49):
their feelings by doing it andoffering it.
Yeah, I mean like would youever say, like do you need a
tissue?
Or like do you?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
ever offer permission to like go grab one.
Oh yeah, all the time.
I think, depending on, maybe,what the modality I might be
using is in like with aparticular client, I might even
sort of encourage that theyassure they have some nearby uh,
(05:14):
like when working with likeEMDR, because it can get heavy
at times.
I say, like you know, havinggrounding um objects nearby is
helpful, but also might behelpful to have tissues nearby,
depending on what comes up forus, right?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
That's interesting.
I never thought about it beingdependent on modality.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You know, I don't think it needs to be.
I think, especially becausethere's maybe some expectation
that can get you know, um heavyin a multitude of ways, it's
just an even more important like, I guess, preparation tool, and
(05:57):
I don't think that that, thoughexclusively exists.
With just that modality, Ithink we can say, especially in
an informed consent type way oflike, hey, telehealth is here
and I want you to feel reallycomfortable, and so that for
some people might look likehaving tissues nearby.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, oh, that's such a good point as like a
grounding tool too.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, yeah, I also like, I feel like I was probably
Switzerland when I was workingin person with students and
clients too, because I wouldmake sure that they were always
within arm's reach of my clientso that they were accessible.
I could honor their autonomy ifthey wanted a tissue, but I
(06:44):
didn't have to be the one thathanded it to them, but they knew
they were there.
Like that, they were alwaysaccessible.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I feel like that's a good like middle ground is
having them within arm's reachand letting them know that
they're there, maybe during likeone of their first appointments
, and then it's.
It's a little subtler to belike you can just point it.
Sometimes I just point yeah,and like a gentle point, not an
(07:10):
aggressive point.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, I think I have plenty of people in telehealth
who are like I need to grabsomething and I'm like go for it
, right.
You know, like um I I don't tryto interrupt what their needs
are.
If they feel like that'ssomething that they need to and
it's not nearby Like yeah, dowhat feels um authentic in that
(07:32):
moment for you.
But I get like why handing itmight also be like useful and
like I see you right.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, I think it's hard, like when you first meet a
client, to know how they'regoing to react.
I would say that maybe for SESH, we're not like throwing
tissues at people, but if, likein the past, they've said like I
feel really alone when I cry orlike I don't like to cry in
front of people, it can be likea supportive measure, like
(08:05):
you're kind of lifting them upand being like hey, I get you.
I also think and this mightalso be kind of controversial
Like sometimes clients make mecry a little bit.
Like I'm never incapable ofengaging with them, but
sometimes, like I leak a littlebit and I think it can be a good
opportunity to like modelself-care by you getting your
own tissue.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And, yeah, I sort of honor that with myself by having
tissues nearby so that, if thathappens, I am able to utilize
that.
Sometimes it's helpful to bringthat into the conversation to
show that we're feeling with,and sometimes it may not feel
(08:46):
appropriate, right, and a lot ofthat is dependent on that
relationship that you have withthe client, things that they've
shared with you.
I find myself maybe like thisexpands beyond just the tissue
issue, of just normalizing thatthis is a safe place for tears,
Because, whether it's societally, generationally, familial,
(09:10):
there's often the message thattears are not welcome and I try
to clarify, like it's not mygoal to make you cry, right, but
like, if you do happen to cryor tears happen to come up in
session, that maybe thoseemotions and those feelings are
asking to be felt and normalized, that like that's okay and that
(09:34):
, like this is this, is a safeplace to do that.
And you know it's never likesomething you need to feel
apologetic for, because I get alot of people who apologize for
crying right, like as if they'vedone something wrong, and so I
just sort of say, like this isone place that, like you should
(09:54):
never have to feel like it's a,you know an apology for crying
Like this is full on permitted.
You have permission to do thathere, no matter the explanation.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, I have lots of clients who apologize when they
start crying and obviously, likethat is a good, like go-to
response like this is where wecome to feel, um, very Nicole
Kidman, like heartbreak feelsgood in a place like this at the
AMC theaters.
Um, I I also think sometimeslike, if clients are like so
(10:28):
uncomfortable, it can be like aopportunity for humor in the
session, like I always, likesometimes, I'll say like I love
when people cry, like you're notgoing to bother me.
I say like I don't like show upto work ready, like excited for
it, but I think it shows a lotof trust in session.
I think it shows that, likeyou're showing up authentically
as yourself, you're lettingyourself like take up a lot of
(10:49):
space, because I feel like a lot, of, a lot of my clients I work
with a lot of kids and teens.
Um, especially like my anxiousteen girls try to make
themselves so small and theynever want to bother people, and
so it's like I I always pointout I'm like, hey, this is the
biggest you've ever been in hereand I can't wait until you like
take up the whole room.
Like this is not something tobe embarrassed about.
(11:12):
I'm not saying you can't feelembarrassed because like they
should feel how they feel Right.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Validating that, yeah , yeah.
When you have those kinds ofsituations, tori, like what um,
or how do you handle the tissueissue there?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
issue there Some.
That's such a good question.
So like I think that I wouldprobably do a point with that,
like when we're feeling nuts notto get too specific, but like I
feel like I'd be like, and justso you know they're still over
there Um, or sometimes I'll,I'll say like I just put a fresh
box out so like don't be afraidto get in there, there's plenty
left.
I think, especially when we'refeeling like small and we should
(11:58):
be hiding about it, it's niceto bring like some lightness to
it If that's something theclient enjoys.
I know that most of my clientswe love to laugh and like gossip
and so usually that's kind ofI'm not the most like serious,
like lab Cody clipboard, kind ofgirl in session, um, if you
(12:19):
can't tell me everything aboutme, and so, um, I usually kind
of like fall back on my likelaugh, laugh, moments of
laughter.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, like bringing levity to the session.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, because sometimes they are like really
big feelings that need to befelt deeply, and sometimes it's
just like this is a byproduct ofthe situation that we're in and
it's not the worst thing, Ithink.
Ultimately it really like it'sno one's favorite answer, like I
feel like whenever you ask aquestion in grad school and you
get this answer, you're kind oflike OK, but like it really
(12:53):
depends.
It depends on the client, itdepends on the therapeutic
relationship.
I also think sometimes you canhand the tissue with the
intention of it being a messageof like hey, it's like if we're
getting close to the end of asession, sometimes I'll use the
tissue as like a way to be likehere's this.
(13:14):
I don't want you to feel rushed, but also like yeah, we are, we
do have a schedule to keep Timehere.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I had a professor in my dog program who
would not let us use it dependsas an answer.
That because essentially we knowthat it depends Right, that
because essentially we know thatit depends right.
Like that that's the obvious andeasy choice.
But like taking a side or or astance, um, was kind of the
purpose of like well, what doyou feel more of about this?
(13:45):
Or like more so like trying tohelp us with understanding maybe
our own orientation to some ofthese topics.
It was a theories course, solike, especially like the
theoretical orientations andpersonalizing that some of the
way.
But in reality and in practicewe know that like having it
(14:08):
depends as an answer is sort ofmore aligned with like how we
navigate clinical decisionmaking, because it does depend
on the client, the relationship,maybe even not just like the
client, like therapeuticmodalities or interventions, but
like the modality of like howwe meet, how you know in person,
(14:31):
is it like within, even like acouple's or family dynamic, like
who's in the room, that there'sall of these other like
elements that are going to helpus sort of land on the best
decision for the person who mayor may not need the tissue.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's so funny, like, like I said at the
beginning, like it seems like avery simple issue, but then,
when you really take some timeto think about it, there's so
many mitigating factors and wehave to make so many little
decisions throughout a sessionthat, like all of them can kind
of come together into, like,does this person need a tissue
right now?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(15:12):
Well, um, I also think like toyour point about like, how we're
practicing.
So much of counseling is soevidence-based and we're really
focused on, like, what the datasays, but also there's like a
personal touch and an art formto it as well, of like, maybe
you're very anti-tissue andthat's how you present to your
clients and um, so, yeah, asmuch as it depends.
(15:33):
It's kind of a cop-out answeryeah, yeah it does.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It's like the blend of maybe the evidence as well as
like how we feel as humans andhow we want to show up
authentically as counselors,like Like um, I I oftentimes
will try to like elaborate onthings, so I I love giving an
example, um to help make it makesense for people, right, like
(15:59):
metaphors or any kind of example, um, sometimes even like
riddled with someself-disclosure, so they
understand.
It's like this happens toeveryone.
It's like I'm a counselor and Iknow a lot of things about how,
like air quotes, we're supposedto maybe navigate things in
like mature and healthy ways andlike I still fall short, right,
(16:20):
like I still mess up.
I'm not perfect, um, but one ofthe things I think I often will
talk about, especially in likeenvironment and creating spaces,
I talk about like how I wantpeople to feel when they see my
picture on the screen that Idon't like have like a green
screen background because thatfeels impersonal to me and I I
(16:44):
try to make it look warm hereand so that like they feel
comfortable in the ways that Ihave control over the same way I
would if they were sitting inmy office physically, but that
we can create that and if I wantto provide warmth to my clients
.
Sometimes the tissue is a goodmove.
(17:06):
Right Like that shows who I amand we can also say how we want
them to interpret that gesture.
Right Like I'm not telling youto stop, I just want you to have
this in case you need it.
Right Like we don't always haveto say like just the action is
(17:29):
interpreted without any context.
Right Like I think of informedconsent as like, yes, it's a
formal part of like what we do,but we can inform people like
I'm narrating as I'm doing this.
Right Like this is theintention and that's modeling in
some ways too of like justhealthy communication oh yeah,
(17:50):
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And I I love what you said about creating warmth and
like comfort, because and thisis my final point but if you're
handing me a one ply tissue,it's just not going to cut it.
It's just not going to cut it.
I need, I need, I need a puffsplus lotion something not not
sponsored, but like I need aquality tissue, not an ad don't
(18:13):
get it twisted but I need asubstantial tissue in my
counseling space as a client andas a counselor that I can rely
on.
That, I know, is my, my, my oldfaithful.
One day I'm going to get one ofthose like grandmother tissue
caddies, you know, like whenthey put the little thing over
the box.
I feel like that's going to bemy brand when I grow up.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
There are so many cool ones.
Got a hot one down they mightshow up on your algorithm now,
but there are many cool umexamples.
I've seen plenty.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I could get so into like a tissue algorithm, a
tissue box.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I hope that we're not creating that space for
everyone, but if we are, you'llhave to send us some of your
favorites.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, please.
Well, as much as I genuinelycould keep talking about this
for probably a couple hours,that, I think, is going to wrap
up our inaugural episode oflet's Unpack that.
Make sure you're subscribed soyou never miss an update.
If you have questions, feedbackor a topic you'd like us to
(19:18):
unpack, be sure to drop us aline.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
You can send us a text or connect with our socials
in the show notes.
Thanks for joining us for let'sUnpack that brought to you by
Ohio Counseling Conversationsand the Ohio Counseling
Association.
If it sparks something for you,share it with a colleague or
drop us a line.
We'd love to keep theconversation going.
Thanks for listening and untilnext time we encourage you to
keep unpacking the big stuff,one conversation at a time.
(19:41):
You
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