September 23, 2025 • 43 mins
Ever wondered how Elsa might benefit from therapy? Or what psychological diagnosis would fit Simba after witnessing his father's death? Our latest episode dives into "The Disney Diagnostic Manual," where we playfully explore beloved animated characters through a therapeutic lens.
Animation provides the perfect canvas for examining complex emotions. Characters display exaggerated expressions that make feelings visible and identifiable—helping viewers of all ages recognize similar experiences within themselves. From Inside Out's personified emotions to Encanto's family dynamics, Disney and Pixar have created powerful metaphors for understanding mental health challenges that feel remarkably human.
We unpack how Disney storytelling has evolved from simple fairy tales to emotionally nuanced narratives that tackle grief, anxiety, trauma, and identity formation. Characters like Elsa demonstrate emotional suppression, Joy reveals the limitations of toxic positivity, and Tiana illustrates work-life imbalance. These fictional journeys provide valuable frameworks for processing our own emotional experiences in safe, accessible ways.
The episode features a playful game where we imagine therapy sessions with characters like The Tramp (attachment issues), Bruno (avoidant tendencies), and Nani (parentification). We explore how cinema therapy uses film as a therapeutic tool, helping clients gain insight and feel less alone. We even debate which Disney tropes deserve to be "unpacked" versus "put back"—from therapy animals to villain redemption arcs.
Whether you're a counselor seeking new metaphors for client work or simply a Disney fan curious about the psychology behind your favorite characters, this episode offers fresh perspective on stories that have shaped generations. Subscribe now and join our conversation about unpacking the big stuff, one Disney character at a time.
What do you think? Send us your questions or topics you'd like us to unpack!
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If you’re a counselor in Ohio and would like to get involved as part of production or as a guest, or know someone who might be interested, please email us at ohiocounselingconversations@gmail.com!
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill and Victoria Frazier
·Editing by Leah Wood & Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to let's Unpack that, a short-form
segment from Ohio CounselingConversations where we dig into
the topics, tools and truthsthat shape our work as
counselors.
Whether it's a trending issue,a clinical insight or something
we've all been thinking about,we're here to process it
together.
Welcome back to let's Unpackthat.
(00:27):
I am Marissa Cargill and I'mVictoria Frazier, and on today's
episode we are going to bedigging into the Disney
Diagnostic Manual really kind ofunpacking.
What if your favorite Disneycharacters booked therapy
appointments?
And just as an aside, we wantpeople to know these are playful
(00:53):
diagnoses and are really forentertainment purposes only.
We're not reflective ofnecessarily actual mental health
diagnoses.
Let's unpack that we believemental health exists on a
spectrum and that everyoneexperiences emotional challenges
and growth at varying degrees,and that everyone experiences
emotional challenges and growthat varying degrees.
Our goal is just to normalizeconversations about mental
health while keeping space forhumor, empathy and understanding
(01:16):
.
And when we talk aboutcharacters today, we might be
talking about how we might wantto work with them, without
necessarily putting the label onthem, but helping work with,
maybe, their experiences.
So we're going to be talkingthrough a lot of different parts
of how animation and thingshelp, but we'll also be talking
about characters.
Tori, tell me, are you a Disneygirly?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I feel like I got grandfathered into being a
Disney girly because my mom is aDisney girly, Like we were
living at the Disney world.
But I, I work so much with kidsand so I feel like it's a work
obligation to be up to date onthe Disney movies and so I do
(01:56):
like them.
But I guess I'm not like, I'mnot an organic Disney girl.
I feel like I'm.
I'm like situationally Disney.
Are you like a Disney girl?
Oh, my goodness, I think so.
Yeah, I feel like I'm.
I'm like situationally.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Disney, are you like a Disney girl?
Oh my goodness, I think so.
Yeah, I feel like and I don'tknow if this is a, I think it's
a pretty I hate the word normal,but common experience for young
children to have a movie thatthey watch like almost daily,
and for me that was the LittleMermaid, because I mean I saw it
(02:27):
in the movie theater.
I was, you know, late 80s,early 90s.
That was an era for Disney, andso there were so many good
things happening.
I can remember seeing many aDisney movie in the theater and
I mean I still do like I'm not amoviegoer.
I know you're an avid moviegoerand I make time for the
(02:50):
Disney's right.
Like I think when I saw thefirst inside out, I hadn't been
to a theater in like years, andthen a couple of summers ago I
don't know, was that last summerthe second one I I went to see.
I'm like mom, gotta go, gottago, must go, and it had been
(03:10):
maybe like two years since I hadbeen to the theater when I saw
that one.
It's yeah, I need to work onthat, especially for someone who
has a degree in media.
I feel like I'm just a badmovie goer, but Disney, I will
make space for that's.
That's something that, yes, Iam a Disney girl.
To answer your question.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I feel like if I'm not in the theater, like every
other week, I'm itching, like Ifeel like I've got to get there.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I I could do some work there.
I think I would enjoy it.
It's just something I haven'tmaybe intentionally spent some
some time with.
But when we think about disneyI guess I'm wondering how do you
feel about the characters andand plot connections to mental
health and in wellness?
How do you feel like this fits?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
yeah, I think that it's really interesting kind of
how disney changed after pixar.
So, like before they likemerged or they acquired Pixar
I'm not sure what the preferredlanguage is, but they were doing
so many like fairy tales andthen, after Pixar came on the
scene with, like Toy Story, allof the movies started getting so
(04:21):
much more like emotionally deepand exploring like different
themes, and so I mean I do thinkthere's still like value in the
fairy tales, especially because, like originally, fairy tales
were created to teach childrenlessons, right.
But I do think it's interestingto kind of see how it's changed
since Pixar started bringing anew kind of agenda to the studio
(04:42):
yeah, and I think I what Ireally like, especially about
studio, yeah, and I think I whatI really like, especially about
the evolution.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
but in general, I think and maybe this helps set
the stage for what we'll bediscussing is that characters in
film and TV and literature areoften like relatable.
Right, we want the charactersto be relatable because that
helps people connect to likemaybe their own challenges or
(05:09):
struggles in life, and so we seethese.
I think, especially in animatedfilm, like with Disney and
Pixar, that there's maybe someof that on like, yes, relatable
level, but like on a moreexaggerated way would you say.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Oh yeah, I think, especially with animation,
there's so much opportunity tocreate situations or even just
like down to the characterexpressions or how they're
moving.
There's so much moreexaggerated than real life.
And I mean I know that CGI nowcan kind of bridge that gap, but
like I don't know, I thinkabout like like Inside Out is a
(05:51):
good example of like buildingthose sets would be insane.
And so it's like animationgives you opportunities to lots
of creative and exaggeratedthings.
And I also think, since it'soriented for children, I mean
people of all ages can enjoythem, but it lets you be a
little more heavy handed withthings and like really dig into
(06:13):
themes and maybe be a littlemore overt than like something
more oriented for adults wouldbe.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, I think I I don't know if I've confessed
this on past episodes of any ofour you know formats on Ohio
Council and Conversations, but Iwas in show choir in high
school and I think of almostjust like how we had to be big
as a performer, right Like youknow very grand gestures, and
(06:42):
like even like your facials hadto be more expressive because
you're on stage and far awayfrom people.
And I feel like that's similarmaybe in some of these films
where it's like very exaggeratedand very big so that it's
visible, it's noticeable, likeit's hard to miss it.
Right Like you can see thatexpression or that, that emotion
(07:06):
very easily because it's overthe top a little and that
exaggeration does help move theplot, like it helps us sell the
story and and maybe send themessages you know, like the you
know that can also it can feelreal for people, even if it's
not as exaggerated, right Likethat real life is that way too
(07:28):
sometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, and I think the like the reality piece of it
even if it's not like I don'tknow there's not little guys
running around in my head as faras I know and like the greater
evidence-based practice knows,but it's's, it relates so
heavily to mental health themesand like real things that people
are going through, like ifwe're gonna stay on the inside
(07:51):
out train, like like fear andanxiety from the second one is
such that I saw that and I don'tknow if I've disclosed this,
but I have an anxiety diagnosisand so so when I was watching
that, like yes, I'm a personwith a full range of emotions,
but I was like, oh, that's me,like, oh, they got me, I mean, I
(08:12):
saw that movie and Irecommended it to clients who
were, you know, in the midst oftheir own struggle to really
understand, like how their ownanxiety functioned right, like
this is really helpful displayof what your brain has going on
and what that anxiety is tryingto do for you.
(08:34):
I used the second one to talk toa lot of my littles about the
difference between what is fearand what is anxiety and how to
tell the difference, which is ahard skill even for like big,
grown up brains that have afused prefrontal cortex.
One of the things I love mostabout the way that I interface
with my clients is getting totalk about media.
(08:54):
It's like a really strange dayfor me if I don't talk about
movies or music or some kind ofmedia with my clients and, even
if it's not to like, teach themsomething like I feel like
Inside.
Out is a very good teachingpiece of media where it's
helping build insight or givingyou metaphors to use for
complicated things that aregoing on in the brain.
(09:16):
I feel like it can even just bea nice way to connect about
things clients are going through, even if you're not getting
into the plot and what thecharacters are going through.
I, if you're not getting intothe plot and what the characters
are going through I have aclient who will come in and I
can kind of see they have a veryphysical presentation of their
depression and they'll come inkind of schlumped and sad and
I'll be like, oh, an Eeyore dayand they'll be like, yeah, I
(09:38):
feel like an Eeyore today, andso even having that touchstone
is really nice.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, definitely, it's part of like, what makes it
relatable it.
Even though these examplesmight be super exaggerated, it's
really mirroring things that weexperience in everyday ways and
it normalizes it like right andI think you know you're
especially like right is one ofthose things that I've seen it
(10:06):
online but that like, even withthat, like his friends still
included him.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
He doesn't have to be by himself surface and help
people understand it by havingthe externalized, like
contextualization, personifyingdifferent emotions, and like
these Disney Pixar films, reallycreate some opportunities for
conversations that maybe wouldfeel too heavy or stigmatized or
(10:43):
intimidating for some people.
It's like an access point thatmaybe we wouldn't have otherwise
.
And I think to your point oflike working with littles for
adults too right, like I onlywork with adults and I was
saying, yeah, you got to seeinside out too to understand
anxiety better.
Like it's just going to giveyou that much more perspective,
and so I think that that's sucha an important piece for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Oh yeah, I think it can also be a nice entry point
if, like, sometimes when myclients come in and they don't
have anything to talk about, Idon't want to just like go in
with something, I've been kindof been excited to start kind of
unpacking with them and so alot my clients mostly all know
that I love movies and a lot oftimes if we're just kind of chit
(11:30):
chatting they'll be like whatare you watching lately?
And like the, I have a clientwho has some really deep grief
work that we've been trying toget into and it's actually one
of my grownup clients and I said, well, I was, it's funny enough
.
I was thinking about you theother day because I was watching
Up and I just the way that Carlis like that's the, that for
(11:51):
those uneducated, that is theold man from not to be ageist,
but he is elderly, but he in thebeginning of the movie he you
see kind of vignettes of him andhis life with his, his wife,
and then she passed away kind ofvignettes of him and his life
with his, his wife, and then shepassed away and we were talking
spoiler sorry for the first 10minutes of uh uh spoilers,
(12:11):
retroactively, a spoiler alertbut we we were talking about how
he feels isolated sometimes andthings like that, and I was
like I was thinking about youwhile I was watching up and that
opened up a door for him and hewas like I can't watch that
movie anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I just love that movie.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And that was a really nice entry point, as opposed to
me being like let's talk aboutthe loss you're experiencing in
your life.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
That's just too much.
Yeah, it's.
It's certainly like such agreat way to connect with people
, and I think it's relationshipbuilding when we talk about the
things that we're doing in ourlife.
Like, certainly there arepeople who don't spend a lot of
time consuming media.
However, it seems like themajority of, like the people in
(12:52):
the US are consuming some typeof media, and these characters
are part of that equation.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I also think if they're not like I have a client
who sometimes I can get alittle lost because they don't
really engage in any media.
They watch sports and so, buteven then they watched movies
when they were little Right, andso the to bring it back to
Disney, like that's a touchstonethat's pretty unanimous for
(13:21):
people.
Unanimous for people, and so itcan also be interesting to
think about how growing up withthose stories was impactful, as
opposed to maybe hearing themfor the first time as an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
There's actually research that shows media
psychology research that sayspeople often relate more deeply
to fictional characters thanpublic figures, and so it makes
these characters powerfulteaching tools for discussing
emotional, mental health andthat can be in our, you know,
(13:54):
one-on-one client spaces, thatcan be in groups, that can be in
classrooms.
That becomes a really big toolto help bridge that gap that
you're talking about.
And one thing that I think a lotof counselors have probably
heard of before is bibliotherapy, right, like where maybe books
(14:14):
or literature, whether they'refiction, nonfiction are assigned
to clients to sort of help themunderstand and bridge gaps in a
way that feels, you know,meaningful.
But cinema therapy is alsosomething that has been
identified as another tool.
So it's really an offshoot ofthat in following in those
(14:35):
footsteps where it's not justnecessarily about watching the
movie but having someconversations around those
movies with your therapist orsometimes like with a group but
with with a counselor, andreally understanding how they
experienced that film, but alsomaybe asking questions about
(14:58):
specific parts of that, how theyrelated to the character, if it
was able to give them somethingthat they felt connected to,
they felt less alone because,like, oh, that's how that has
happened for someone else andwhat that can bring these cinema
therapy experiences is insightcatharsis, that feeling of maybe
(15:23):
it is more of a universal thing, or even if it's not universal,
I'm not the only one.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Oh, absolutely.
I think the catharsis is suchan important part because
sometimes mental we lovecatharsis Mental health can be
like when we're havingdifficulties it can be so
isolating.
And maybe we're from a family ora culture where that's not
something that we talk aboutwith each other, right, and so
(15:49):
having a representation ofsomething you're going through
on screen, especially as, like,nobody's perfect but like
they've moved towards morediversity in their storytelling,
I think that is so importantbeing able to see them have a
(16:12):
confrontational conversationwith a family member or try
something and fail and get backup again.
I think one of the characters Italk a lot about which feels
kind of niche because, again,spoiler alert for Big Hero 6,
which is the one with the bigfluffy robot I talk about the
older brother a lot, tadashi.
He is a very parental figure forhis younger brother, as older
(16:35):
siblings often are in to seePixar movies and he actually
dies in an explosion, beingheroic and we see the little
brother feel obligated to kindof fill those shoes and he makes
connections with the brother'sfriends and they like become a
team of superheroes.
It's a very cute movie but hefeels a lot of pressure before
(17:00):
him because he is such a smartkid and we see how like that can
be a strength and also kind ofharmful.
And the older brother built ina program in the robot he made
that the little brother keeps.
The robot's name is Baymax, andBaymax is meant to be cuddly
and warm and supportive, buthe's also a medical robot, so
(17:22):
he's there to assess for injury,and so you see how we talk
about it a lot of different waysLike it's important to be soft
and gentle, but also like it'simportant to use your resources
and use the things that peoplehave left for you, and so, yeah,
not to get too into.
Tadashi's journey from Big Hero6, but that one all the kids
(17:43):
have seen it, but it's not onethat comes to mind immediately
when we think about, like, oh,what are therapy movies?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Right, right, well, and that's where it's like,
sometimes taking a peek at acharacter just helps us say what
does that look like for you?
I've asked clients to thinkabout movies where they identify
with a character, notspecifically Disney, but that,
hey, what is it about thatcharacter that you relate to?
Maybe we can unpack that.
(18:11):
I'm not like super heavy, onlyIFS type things, but I think
sometimes when we think aboutthe parts that we relate to with
that, I've done some of my ownexercises and trainings with
that and felt like I unpackedsome things by myself.
How do I connect to that person?
And in both positive andnegative or more neutral ways,
(18:35):
and it's like surprising, it'seye-opening where you're like oh
, that might be something thatI'm I don't know hard on myself
about, for example.
But yeah, looking at charactersis important.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, do you have a character that comes to mind
that if they came into youroffice, you would have something
you'd really want to help themexplore or work on?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Okay, I wanted to ask you that question, but I wanted
to like give you charactersthat maybe like would be a
surprise and you tell me howyou'd work with them.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Is this a fair game to play?
I think it's a fair.
I play'd work with them Is that.
Is this a fair game to play?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I think it's a fair.
I play this game with myself.
Yeah, let's set the stage.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So like maybe we use some that we both can like
identify some like I don't knowif issues is the language I want
to use, but some likechallenges or experiences that
they're having.
So, like Elsa from Frozen she'sshe's struggling because
there's a lot of suppressionbecause of of when she does
(19:41):
experience emotions, it feelsvery big, so the conceal don't
feel is really important, butthat's that's harming her as
well.
And so I think, like trying tosupport her in finding healthy
ways for expression as well aslike safety with people in
(20:01):
expressing, like you know,safety in the counseling space.
But like identifying peoplethat she feels safe expressing
to oh yeah, might be a usefulfeel safe.
Expressing to you, oh yeah,might be a useful approach.
But what are some that you feel?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I think just to keep it on also for a second, I also
think that, like some, socialskills training would probably
be important.
Sure, she's being expected torun a country, but she's been in
a room her whole life with noone else, Isolated for so long.
Well, the castle like like Iguess maybe I exaggerated.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
She's seen other people, but limited yeah,
limited, but but, yeah, verylimited.
I to come back to inside out, II think Joy's evolution from the
first to the second wasincredible and so maybe I don't
need to see her now as much.
But I think the first movie, ina way that was intentional I
(21:02):
think I mean I didn't talk tothe filmmakers was really like
toxic positivity, like goodvibes, only no space for
anything else.
And I think with her evolutionwe saw how that gets to be
pretty heavy and how that'sreally hard to try and stay that
way and that she was able tomake space for how difficult it
(21:25):
is to stay positive and bejoyful all the time.
I thought that that was I mean,I'm getting goosebumps talking
about it, like I'm just like asentimental but I thought that
that was one of the mostbeautiful parts of that movie
for me and maybe because that'ssomething I identify with, I may
need to unpack thatindividually, but I just thought
(21:46):
it was incredible.
And so I think continuing thatpath with her of like emotional
integration and I know likethese emotions were only one,
one part of Riley, but I thinkwhen we look at them as one
character like that, we're stilltrying to help them understand
like that being exclusively onething is maybe not healthy yeah,
(22:07):
right, not.
Maybe is is not healthyobjectively, yeah, yeah, so what
else.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Okay, this is kind of a niche bit, but I would love
to get a group session goingwith all of the people who were
on the spaceship in WALL-E, whowere in their little chairs and
like floating around.
I feel like that, that movie, Ilove that movie and I feel like
I got that movie.
I love that movie and I feellike I got to watch it so much
in high school because scienceteachers would show it on like
(22:37):
like before Christmas break.
So I just I have like a verysoft spot in my heart for WALL-E
.
But they're like there's thisbeautiful moment where, like the
screens flicker and you see twoof the people who are on that
spaceship like look at a humanbeing not through a screen for
the first time, and it's sobeautiful and like they, they
(22:58):
work together and they like saveall these babies that are on
the spaceship.
I think it's been a minute.
I've not been in high school fora while but I think having a
like a group therapy for all thepeople who are on that ship,
because they're going to likerepopulate the earth at the end
Spoiler alert for the ending ofWALL-E and like that's a whole
new like living environment forthem, and also they haven't been
interacting with each other orlike eating solid food.
(23:19):
They've only been having thoselittle like milkshake things.
I would love to get themtogether and be like let's learn
how to interact with each other, and also, like I'm sure their
motivation is quite low and youknow, there's like a lot of
different skills, and so Ialways think about them and how,
like.
I don't think Wally, too, is inthe works, but I would be very
interested in like trying tofigure out how that's going to
(23:41):
work.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, okay, I think that there are so many good
characters that arerepresentative of of very human
experiences, and so we couldprobably spend time going
through a million more and wewill cover a couple more, but
maybe we missed one of yourfavorite characters.
So, you know, certainly feelfree to like, share that with us
(24:04):
.
We can always come back to.
You know, part two of theDisney Di manual.
I know one that for me, maybeas an elder millennial, that was
very foundational, I guessmight be the right word.
I don't know, maybefoundational is not the right
word, but pretty epic, in notthe best way, is Simba,
(24:28):
especially the part where Mufasadies spoiler alert and that,
like what happens after with thegrief and like some of the the
layered family, like dynamicswith Scar especially.
You know how Simba, as such ayoung character, learns how to
(24:49):
cope is by avoiding, by runningaway, and that he feels a lot of
guilt and shame around it, andso those are things that, like I
, you know, I would say it'sprobably my favorite animal
Disney movie I classify themdifferently, right, and that's
one of my favorite animal movies, but that there is like sort of
that resilience building toafter he's grown a little and
(25:13):
you know spent his time away andthen you know talk to Rafiki
and really kind of changed hisperspective on things, right,
and so I think it's it's sort ofcontinuing that like in helping
him believe in himself andmaybe process the guilt and the
shame and the grief that.
That in helping him believe inhimself and maybe process the
guilt and the shame and thegrief that that he experienced.
(25:35):
But that clip right Like justpulls a lot of emotion for me as
an elder millennial.
But I have a few people I wantto throw at you like quick fire,
just some things that maybe youfeel like what would you do?
And this one I'm as I'm likethinking about it as an elder
(25:57):
millennial, I'm like I hopeshe's seen this one.
So if not, I will, like youknow, phone a friend and all
I'll give some insights.
But I number one, the trampfrom lady and the tramp okay,
incredible pull.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Of course I'm familiar.
Oh my gosh, what would I dowith tramp?
I feel like he has some reallyunhelpful core beliefs about,
like his function in the worldand like what he brings to
relationships, yeah, and so Ifeel like we could do a lot of
work with like okay, where arethese beliefs coming from?
Are they coming fromexperiences?
Are they coming from, like, howthe world interacts with dogs
(26:36):
that don't have like a moredefined breed, like is there
some stigma that's happening?
So I feel like I feel liketramp could use some like
feminist interventions and maybesome cbt, maybe some
exploration of like attachmentissues.
Oh yeah, yeah, he has layers, hehas layers.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I like that's such a throwback, but I was really like
, hmm, I would like to, and Iwould like to sit with him and
learn more, you know, okay, whatabout in this?
I almost just set it up to likesaying what about Bruno from
Encanto?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Oh my gosh, that whole family needs some help and
someone to sit with them.
Bruno, oh my gosh, I feel likehe has a lot of avoidant
tendencies, obviously Like helocked himself away.
He was made the scapegoat right, like there's lots of family
(27:36):
dynamics, like the black sheepof the family.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
we don't talk about Bruno and I thought I wonder,
like, how Bruno has internalizedthat.
I feel like, yeah, while we getto learn about him in the film,
like like I still want to knowmore and I want to help him feel
like empowered to like embracehimself more and, you know, if
(28:02):
possible, find healthy ways tosort of embrace the family, if
desired.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think it'd also be tough because with a lot of my
clients I talk aboutcatastrophizing and fortune
telling and he has a very uniquething where it's not guaranteed
the things he sees are going tohappen.
So maybe that's where it's likethe power of perhaps kind of
thing.
But I think that's a specialchallenge for him.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Okay, last one, tiana , from the Princess and the Frog
.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
That's my best friend , miss Tiana herself.
I feel like I we need to expandher identity outside of work
and like it's been that way forso long, and also like she loves
the restaurant.
I'm not saying she can't have,she needs to have the restaurant
.
She should have a passion, havea passion right, but like that
was her dad's you know what Imean.
(28:55):
Like that's a dream she pickedup from her dad and so maybe she
has like like foreclosed alittle bit on her identity
exploration.
I think we see her grow throughthe course of the movie and
like realize there's thingsoutside of like working and
getting this restaurant, butalso just like I feel like she
needs more cliff boundaries, Ifeel like she needs more, a
little more honest communicationwith her friends or like being
(29:17):
more open to her friends.
Because, like, at first glancelottie is like selfish and you
know like not as interested inother people.
But when you watch that movie,lottie is a really good friend
and it's like ready to show upfor her.
But Tiana doesn't give her alot of opportunities for that
and so I feel like, yeah, that's, I love her.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I find that incredibly relatable to a lot of
clients' experiences, becauseso many people struggle asking
for help, right, even thoughthey might show up to sessions
and stuff like that, and they,they, they are seeking support
in ways that they feel like safedoing.
So they don't feel ascomfortable asking people who
(29:59):
would be willing to support themto support them, and so it's an
interesting but reallyrelatable part of of things.
In interest of time, do you,you know you want to throw any
my way, or do we want to move tosome of?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I think I have one that we haven't talked about,
that I just feel verypassionately about, and it's
nani from lilo and stitch okay,I haven't seen that no what okay
, I think I was afraid it lookedtoo emotional and I was like I
can, I can't, I just can't.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
It is, it is emotional.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
She's parentified long and short of it.
I mean by the circumstancestheir parents pass away.
She's raising Lilo but likeshe's also still pretty young
and there's a lot of like thesocial workers involved and like
they're navigating that processtogether as a family.
And I've heard there's changesto the live action.
(31:01):
I haven't seen it.
Maybe I should get on that.
But in the animated version yousee how the social worker whose
name is Cobra Bubbles he's anicon and a diva is like he wants
to work with Nani and make sureshe has adequate support from
their family and like friends onthe island and the and Jamba
and Pleakley.
You've got to get into Lilo andStitch.
But anyways she's parentified,but I feel like that's the like
Disney elder sibling, becausenone of them have parents,
(31:23):
especially the old ones.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yes, that's part of the evolution.
I'm going to share a couple ofquick fun facts just so that
people kind of have a betterunderstanding of maybe some of
the research that like isconnected to this.
In 2021, there's an APA articlethat talked about how animated
films can help children talkabout their complex emotions in
safe, accessible ways.
So sort of speaks to thatearlier research that we
(31:48):
discussed about like bondingmore with fictional characters
over like public figures orcelebrities, which makes Disney,
pixar, as well as other films,really great opportunities for
mental health education.
So much so Pixar's Inside Outis actually cited in actual
social emotional learning liketools now and programs is a
(32:12):
classroom tool.
And lastly, like I think thisspeaks more to some of that
evolution that we were justtouching on beyond like parents,
is that Disney princess rolesspecifically, have shifted from
like more passive, being rescuedby the prince roles, to more
complex characters with familydynamics, identity struggle
(32:36):
issues, grief, anxiety, etc.
And so I think that that justis really part of how, like what
you mentioned at the start ofthe episode, things are becoming
more emotionally intelligentand you know, I think it's
really cool that we did do someI guess game is the best way to
put it, but we did someengagement with you as the
(32:58):
listeners, on our social mediaaccount at Ohio Counseling on
Instagram.
Ohio Counseling Association onFacebook and LinkedIn, and just
wanted to share some of theseplayful diagnoses that our
listeners had engaged with usand shared.
So Sleeping Beauty has chronicfatigue syndrome.
We, you know, accurate rightbell with the bookworm brain rot
(33:23):
as a diagnosis.
You know I, I like it.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think she, she finds joy in that brain rotting
through her books, right throughher reading I will say it's
probably doing better things forher attention span than our
version of brain rot.
Sure is yes.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
This one I had a giggle with King Triton meets
criteria for GDD grumpy daddisorder with a Z code for TMTD.
This part made me laugh.
Too many teen daughters.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I have some parents who are meeting criteria for
that as well.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Someone also said Jasmine meets the criteria for
MCD magic carpet disorder and Iwas like, is this magical
thinking?
Like I was like we could go somany different directions.
And then, an honorable mention,it wasn't Disney, it was Donkey
from Shrek, with maybe somehistrionic stuff going on as
well.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I think I could do a five-hour lecture on the
characters from Shrek and theirvarious happenings.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Maybe we need another episode.
I don't know Shrek-centric,just Shrek Sure.
I love that.
I don't know Shrek-centric,just Shrek Sure.
I love that.
I'm very open to that.
So we have one final gamebefore we sort of wrap it up,
and we want you to be thinkingabout these things too.
As we're thinking, we hope thatyou're in your car, in your
home, having similar reflections, unpacking this with us.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Okay.
So we're going to play weplayed it last time, which we
really loved which is unpack itor put it back and we're just
going to go through a couple ofthings that are common in Disney
movies and we're going to sayif we want to keep them or if
maybe it's time to rethink them,Unpack or put it back.
So the first one is therapyanimals in films.
And we're talking like PascalEntangled, the Little Chameleon.
(35:19):
How do we feel?
Pip and Enchanted.
Yes, Pip is such an icon.
I love Pip.
I feel like I'm unpacking allday long.
I need those little guys.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Unpack yes, well, I need them in real life and in
Disney.
So, yes, unpack all day, everyday.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Agreed A hundred percent.
The next one is songs asemotional processing which I
feel like Elsa has been kind ofour spotlight icon of the
episode but like let it go.
Or I think about Moana.
How reflection how far I'll go,moana, we're going places all
day, every day, also in reallife.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I I think music as catharsis is incredible, so I
like it for emotional processing, for our characters and for us
as counselors and our clients amillion percent agree, all right
.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
The next one is villain redemption arcs.
What do we feel?
Unpack, okay, you know I havestrong feelings.
I think sometimes unpack,sometimes put it back, sometimes
people are doing unforgivablethings, sure yeah, and they need
(36:35):
to fall into lava.
Like sorry, the charactersFrollo from the hunchback of
nerdom, get him in the lava, I'mdone, I'm over it and he does
go in the lava.
I will say I'll say the newercharacters have greater
emotional depth and I'm okaywith them being redeemed.
(36:57):
But I think sometimes hardtimes are important.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
We would understand their behaviors or patterns
better if we had more context,right, and so I love to see
redemption and like it.
It's conflicting, right, but Ithink that that's like very
human too, where we can seepeople who have done harm but
(37:25):
maybe have compassion for themin some ways.
Does that mean we don't haveboundaries and that we accept
all bad behaviors?
Absolutely not, right, this isnuanced, but I think it's
helpful to to see that in infilm, to maybe have, and for
those people who feel likethey're the villain, that they
(37:47):
get to see a redemption arc thatthey like they are worthy of
redemption.
Yeah, that I, I like it forthat reason.
That does not mean we acceptbad behavior or, you know,
harmful like stuff from themalways, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
People can change.
I think that's the whole youknow, that's our whole thing.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, of course we believe that Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
We have a couple more Comic relief sidekicks as
coping mechanisms.
Uh, I mean sure humor's good Unyeah, I think there is a limit
to it, as with all things butyeah right right yeah, sometimes
.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Sometimes it's an avoidance thing too, where, like
the humor might be like, okay,well, that's unhelpful.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
But yes, on the whole , more unpack than put it back I
don't think it's going to be asurprise the last one for either
of us, because I think it's thepoint of our whole episode but
magical realism as a metaphorfor trauma.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I mean, yeah, mostly we unpack because that's part of
like why this is relatable.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
No, yes, a million percent unpack, I think you know
, as long as we can bring itback to ourselves and like
reality, yes, a million percentunpack all day long.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I love a metaphor I speak exclusively in metaphors,
exaggerated examples sometimesmight might feel like, oh, this
isn't like reflective of myexperience or it's you know,
it's too simplified in some waystoo, because we don't always we
(39:26):
know that, like Cinderella'smother died when she was young,
but we don't really know thedetails behind it and how she's
experienced that, aside from howshe experienced her stepmother
and step sisters right, like wedon't really know the grief
parts, or like if it wassomething you know, I think
losing a parent at a young ageis arguably traumatic, but like
(39:49):
we don't know the details and soit can be relatable, but like
maybe passive and so maybe it'snot always there, but maybe that
gives us more ideas for film, Iguess yeah, the box is open,
but we haven't taken everythingout of it exactly that.
I think it's important.
(40:09):
You know, again, this is meantfor entertainment and to be
playful and to sort of just getour brains thinking about things
that are fun and maybe alignedwith our roles as counselors,
but also to remind ourselves wecan learn a lot about ourselves
and our clients through thecharacters that we love and that
(40:30):
even sometimes fairy tales needa little unpacking right.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
And I think that wraps up this episode of let's
Unpack that.
Make sure you're subscribed soyou never miss an update, and if
you have questions, feedback ora topic you'd like us to unpack
, be sure to drop us a line.
You can send us a text from thelink in our show notes or
connect with our socials.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Thanks for joining us for let's Unpack that brought
to you by Ohio CounselingConversations and the Ohio
Counseling Association.
If it sparked something for you, share it with a colleague or
drop us a line.
We'd love to keep theconversation going.
Thanks for listening and untilnext time we encourage you to
keep unpacking the big stuff,one conversation at a time.
(41:14):
Thank you, Thank you.
Welcome to let's Unpack that, a short-form
segment from Ohio CounselingConversations where we dig into
the topics, tools and truthsthat shape our work as
counselors.
Whether it's a trending issue,a clinical insight or something
we've all been thinking about,we're here to process it
together.
Welcome back to let's Unpackthat.
(00:27):
I am Marissa Cargill and I'mVictoria Frazier, and on today's
episode we are going to bedigging into the Disney
Diagnostic Manual really kind ofunpacking.
What if your favorite Disneycharacters booked therapy
appointments?
And just as an aside, we wantpeople to know these are playful
(00:53):
diagnoses and are really forentertainment purposes only.
We're not reflective ofnecessarily actual mental health
diagnoses.
Let's unpack that we believemental health exists on a
spectrum and that everyoneexperiences emotional challenges
and growth at varying degrees,and that everyone experiences
emotional challenges and growthat varying degrees.
Our goal is just to normalizeconversations about mental
health while keeping space forhumor, empathy and understanding
(01:16):
.
And when we talk aboutcharacters today, we might be
talking about how we might wantto work with them, without
necessarily putting the label onthem, but helping work with,
maybe, their experiences.
So we're going to be talkingthrough a lot of different parts
of how animation and thingshelp, but we'll also be talking
about characters.
Tori, tell me, are you a Disneygirly?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I feel like I got grandfathered into being a
Disney girly because my mom is aDisney girly, Like we were
living at the Disney world.
But I, I work so much with kidsand so I feel like it's a work
obligation to be up to date onthe Disney movies and so I do
(01:56):
like them.
But I guess I'm not like, I'mnot an organic Disney girl.
I feel like I'm.
I'm like situationally Disney.
Are you like a Disney girl?
Oh, my goodness, I think so.
Yeah, I feel like I'm.
I'm like situationally.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Disney, are you like a Disney girl?
Oh my goodness, I think so.
Yeah, I feel like and I don'tknow if this is a, I think it's
a pretty I hate the word normal,but common experience for young
children to have a movie thatthey watch like almost daily,
and for me that was the LittleMermaid, because I mean I saw it
(02:27):
in the movie theater.
I was, you know, late 80s,early 90s.
That was an era for Disney, andso there were so many good
things happening.
I can remember seeing many aDisney movie in the theater and
I mean I still do like I'm not amoviegoer.
I know you're an avid moviegoerand I make time for the
(02:50):
Disney's right.
Like I think when I saw thefirst inside out, I hadn't been
to a theater in like years, andthen a couple of summers ago I
don't know, was that last summerthe second one I I went to see.
I'm like mom, gotta go, gottago, must go, and it had been
(03:10):
maybe like two years since I hadbeen to the theater when I saw
that one.
It's yeah, I need to work onthat, especially for someone who
has a degree in media.
I feel like I'm just a badmovie goer, but Disney, I will
make space for that's.
That's something that, yes, Iam a Disney girl.
To answer your question.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I feel like if I'm not in the theater, like every
other week, I'm itching, like Ifeel like I've got to get there.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I I could do some work there.
I think I would enjoy it.
It's just something I haven'tmaybe intentionally spent some
some time with.
But when we think about disneyI guess I'm wondering how do you
feel about the characters andand plot connections to mental
health and in wellness?
How do you feel like this fits?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
yeah, I think that it's really interesting kind of
how disney changed after pixar.
So, like before they likemerged or they acquired Pixar
I'm not sure what the preferredlanguage is, but they were doing
so many like fairy tales andthen, after Pixar came on the
scene with, like Toy Story, allof the movies started getting so
(04:21):
much more like emotionally deepand exploring like different
themes, and so I mean I do thinkthere's still like value in the
fairy tales, especially because, like originally, fairy tales
were created to teach childrenlessons, right.
But I do think it's interestingto kind of see how it's changed
since Pixar started bringing anew kind of agenda to the studio
(04:42):
yeah, and I think I what Ireally like, especially about
studio, yeah, and I think I whatI really like, especially about
the evolution.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
but in general, I think and maybe this helps set
the stage for what we'll bediscussing is that characters in
film and TV and literature areoften like relatable.
Right, we want the charactersto be relatable because that
helps people connect to likemaybe their own challenges or
(05:09):
struggles in life, and so we seethese.
I think, especially in animatedfilm, like with Disney and
Pixar, that there's maybe someof that on like, yes, relatable
level, but like on a moreexaggerated way would you say.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Oh yeah, I think, especially with animation,
there's so much opportunity tocreate situations or even just
like down to the characterexpressions or how they're
moving.
There's so much moreexaggerated than real life.
And I mean I know that CGI nowcan kind of bridge that gap, but
like I don't know, I thinkabout like like Inside Out is a
(05:51):
good example of like buildingthose sets would be insane.
And so it's like animationgives you opportunities to lots
of creative and exaggeratedthings.
And I also think, since it'soriented for children, I mean
people of all ages can enjoythem, but it lets you be a
little more heavy handed withthings and like really dig into
(06:13):
themes and maybe be a littlemore overt than like something
more oriented for adults wouldbe.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, I think I I don't know if I've confessed
this on past episodes of any ofour you know formats on Ohio
Council and Conversations, but Iwas in show choir in high
school and I think of almostjust like how we had to be big
as a performer, right Like youknow very grand gestures, and
(06:42):
like even like your facials hadto be more expressive because
you're on stage and far awayfrom people.
And I feel like that's similarmaybe in some of these films
where it's like very exaggeratedand very big so that it's
visible, it's noticeable, likeit's hard to miss it.
Right Like you can see thatexpression or that, that emotion
(07:06):
very easily because it's overthe top a little and that
exaggeration does help move theplot, like it helps us sell the
story and and maybe send themessages you know, like the you
know that can also it can feelreal for people, even if it's
not as exaggerated, right Likethat real life is that way too
(07:28):
sometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, and I think the like the reality piece of it
even if it's not like I don'tknow there's not little guys
running around in my head as faras I know and like the greater
evidence-based practice knows,but it's's, it relates so
heavily to mental health themesand like real things that people
are going through, like ifwe're gonna stay on the inside
(07:51):
out train, like like fear andanxiety from the second one is
such that I saw that and I don'tknow if I've disclosed this,
but I have an anxiety diagnosisand so so when I was watching
that, like yes, I'm a personwith a full range of emotions,
but I was like, oh, that's me,like, oh, they got me, I mean, I
(08:12):
saw that movie and Irecommended it to clients who
were, you know, in the midst oftheir own struggle to really
understand, like how their ownanxiety functioned right, like
this is really helpful displayof what your brain has going on
and what that anxiety is tryingto do for you.
(08:34):
I used the second one to talk toa lot of my littles about the
difference between what is fearand what is anxiety and how to
tell the difference, which is ahard skill even for like big,
grown up brains that have afused prefrontal cortex.
One of the things I love mostabout the way that I interface
with my clients is getting totalk about media.
(08:54):
It's like a really strange dayfor me if I don't talk about
movies or music or some kind ofmedia with my clients and, even
if it's not to like, teach themsomething like I feel like
Inside.
Out is a very good teachingpiece of media where it's
helping build insight or givingyou metaphors to use for
complicated things that aregoing on in the brain.
(09:16):
I feel like it can even just bea nice way to connect about
things clients are going through, even if you're not getting
into the plot and what thecharacters are going through.
I, if you're not getting intothe plot and what the characters
are going through I have aclient who will come in and I
can kind of see they have a veryphysical presentation of their
depression and they'll come inkind of schlumped and sad and
I'll be like, oh, an Eeyore dayand they'll be like, yeah, I
(09:38):
feel like an Eeyore today, andso even having that touchstone
is really nice.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, definitely, it's part of like, what makes it
relatable it.
Even though these examplesmight be super exaggerated, it's
really mirroring things that weexperience in everyday ways and
it normalizes it like right andI think you know you're
especially like right is one ofthose things that I've seen it
(10:06):
online but that like, even withthat, like his friends still
included him.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
He doesn't have to be by himself surface and help
people understand it by havingthe externalized, like
contextualization, personifyingdifferent emotions, and like
these Disney Pixar films, reallycreate some opportunities for
conversations that maybe wouldfeel too heavy or stigmatized or
(10:43):
intimidating for some people.
It's like an access point thatmaybe we wouldn't have otherwise
.
And I think to your point oflike working with littles for
adults too right, like I onlywork with adults and I was
saying, yeah, you got to seeinside out too to understand
anxiety better.
Like it's just going to giveyou that much more perspective,
and so I think that that's sucha an important piece for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Oh yeah, I think it can also be a nice entry point
if, like, sometimes when myclients come in and they don't
have anything to talk about, Idon't want to just like go in
with something, I've been kindof been excited to start kind of
unpacking with them and so alot my clients mostly all know
that I love movies and a lot oftimes if we're just kind of chit
(11:30):
chatting they'll be like whatare you watching lately?
And like the, I have a clientwho has some really deep grief
work that we've been trying toget into and it's actually one
of my grownup clients and I said, well, I was, it's funny enough
.
I was thinking about you theother day because I was watching
Up and I just the way that Carlis like that's the, that for
(11:51):
those uneducated, that is theold man from not to be ageist,
but he is elderly, but he in thebeginning of the movie he you
see kind of vignettes of him andhis life with his, his wife,
and then she passed away kind ofvignettes of him and his life
with his, his wife, and then shepassed away and we were talking
spoiler sorry for the first 10minutes of uh uh spoilers,
(12:11):
retroactively, a spoiler alertbut we we were talking about how
he feels isolated sometimes andthings like that, and I was
like I was thinking about youwhile I was watching up and that
opened up a door for him and hewas like I can't watch that
movie anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I just love that movie.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And that was a really nice entry point, as opposed to
me being like let's talk aboutthe loss you're experiencing in
your life.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
That's just too much.
Yeah, it's.
It's certainly like such agreat way to connect with people
, and I think it's relationshipbuilding when we talk about the
things that we're doing in ourlife.
Like, certainly there arepeople who don't spend a lot of
time consuming media.
However, it seems like themajority of, like the people in
(12:52):
the US are consuming some typeof media, and these characters
are part of that equation.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I also think if they're not like I have a client
who sometimes I can get alittle lost because they don't
really engage in any media.
They watch sports and so, buteven then they watched movies
when they were little Right, andso the to bring it back to
Disney, like that's a touchstonethat's pretty unanimous for
(13:21):
people.
Unanimous for people, and so itcan also be interesting to
think about how growing up withthose stories was impactful, as
opposed to maybe hearing themfor the first time as an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
There's actually research that shows media
psychology research that sayspeople often relate more deeply
to fictional characters thanpublic figures, and so it makes
these characters powerfulteaching tools for discussing
emotional, mental health andthat can be in our, you know,
(13:54):
one-on-one client spaces, thatcan be in groups, that can be in
classrooms.
That becomes a really big toolto help bridge that gap that
you're talking about.
And one thing that I think a lotof counselors have probably
heard of before is bibliotherapy, right, like where maybe books
(14:14):
or literature, whether they'refiction, nonfiction are assigned
to clients to sort of help themunderstand and bridge gaps in a
way that feels, you know,meaningful.
But cinema therapy is alsosomething that has been
identified as another tool.
So it's really an offshoot ofthat in following in those
(14:35):
footsteps where it's not justnecessarily about watching the
movie but having someconversations around those
movies with your therapist orsometimes like with a group but
with with a counselor, andreally understanding how they
experienced that film, but alsomaybe asking questions about
(14:58):
specific parts of that, how theyrelated to the character, if it
was able to give them somethingthat they felt connected to,
they felt less alone because,like, oh, that's how that has
happened for someone else andwhat that can bring these cinema
therapy experiences is insightcatharsis, that feeling of maybe
(15:23):
it is more of a universal thing, or even if it's not universal,
I'm not the only one.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Oh, absolutely.
I think the catharsis is suchan important part because
sometimes mental we lovecatharsis Mental health can be
like when we're havingdifficulties it can be so
isolating.
And maybe we're from a family ora culture where that's not
something that we talk aboutwith each other, right, and so
(15:49):
having a representation ofsomething you're going through
on screen, especially as, like,nobody's perfect but like
they've moved towards morediversity in their storytelling,
I think that is so importantbeing able to see them have a
(16:12):
confrontational conversationwith a family member or try
something and fail and get backup again.
I think one of the characters Italk a lot about which feels
kind of niche because, again,spoiler alert for Big Hero 6,
which is the one with the bigfluffy robot I talk about the
older brother a lot, tadashi.
He is a very parental figure forhis younger brother, as older
(16:35):
siblings often are in to seePixar movies and he actually
dies in an explosion, beingheroic and we see the little
brother feel obligated to kindof fill those shoes and he makes
connections with the brother'sfriends and they like become a
team of superheroes.
It's a very cute movie but hefeels a lot of pressure before
(17:00):
him because he is such a smartkid and we see how like that can
be a strength and also kind ofharmful.
And the older brother built ina program in the robot he made
that the little brother keeps.
The robot's name is Baymax, andBaymax is meant to be cuddly
and warm and supportive, buthe's also a medical robot, so
(17:22):
he's there to assess for injury,and so you see how we talk
about it a lot of different waysLike it's important to be soft
and gentle, but also like it'simportant to use your resources
and use the things that peoplehave left for you, and so, yeah,
not to get too into.
Tadashi's journey from Big Hero6, but that one all the kids
(17:43):
have seen it, but it's not onethat comes to mind immediately
when we think about, like, oh,what are therapy movies?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Right, right, well, and that's where it's like,
sometimes taking a peek at acharacter just helps us say what
does that look like for you?
I've asked clients to thinkabout movies where they identify
with a character, notspecifically Disney, but that,
hey, what is it about thatcharacter that you relate to?
Maybe we can unpack that.
(18:11):
I'm not like super heavy, onlyIFS type things, but I think
sometimes when we think aboutthe parts that we relate to with
that, I've done some of my ownexercises and trainings with
that and felt like I unpackedsome things by myself.
How do I connect to that person?
And in both positive andnegative or more neutral ways,
(18:35):
and it's like surprising, it'seye-opening where you're like oh
, that might be something thatI'm I don't know hard on myself
about, for example.
But yeah, looking at charactersis important.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, do you have a character that comes to mind
that if they came into youroffice, you would have something
you'd really want to help themexplore or work on?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Okay, I wanted to ask you that question, but I wanted
to like give you charactersthat maybe like would be a
surprise and you tell me howyou'd work with them.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Is this a fair game to play?
I think it's a fair.
I play'd work with them Is that.
Is this a fair game to play?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I think it's a fair.
I play this game with myself.
Yeah, let's set the stage.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So like maybe we use some that we both can like
identify some like I don't knowif issues is the language I want
to use, but some likechallenges or experiences that
they're having.
So, like Elsa from Frozen she'sshe's struggling because
there's a lot of suppressionbecause of of when she does
(19:41):
experience emotions, it feelsvery big, so the conceal don't
feel is really important, butthat's that's harming her as
well.
And so I think, like trying tosupport her in finding healthy
ways for expression as well aslike safety with people in
(20:01):
expressing, like you know,safety in the counseling space.
But like identifying peoplethat she feels safe expressing
to oh yeah, might be a usefulfeel safe.
Expressing to you, oh yeah,might be a useful approach.
But what are some that you feel?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I think just to keep it on also for a second, I also
think that, like some, socialskills training would probably
be important.
Sure, she's being expected torun a country, but she's been in
a room her whole life with noone else, Isolated for so long.
Well, the castle like like Iguess maybe I exaggerated.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
She's seen other people, but limited yeah,
limited, but but, yeah, verylimited.
I to come back to inside out, II think Joy's evolution from the
first to the second wasincredible and so maybe I don't
need to see her now as much.
But I think the first movie, ina way that was intentional I
(21:02):
think I mean I didn't talk tothe filmmakers was really like
toxic positivity, like goodvibes, only no space for
anything else.
And I think with her evolutionwe saw how that gets to be
pretty heavy and how that'sreally hard to try and stay that
way and that she was able tomake space for how difficult it
(21:25):
is to stay positive and bejoyful all the time.
I thought that that was I mean,I'm getting goosebumps talking
about it, like I'm just like asentimental but I thought that
that was one of the mostbeautiful parts of that movie
for me and maybe because that'ssomething I identify with, I may
need to unpack thatindividually, but I just thought
(21:46):
it was incredible.
And so I think continuing thatpath with her of like emotional
integration and I know likethese emotions were only one,
one part of Riley, but I thinkwhen we look at them as one
character like that, we're stilltrying to help them understand
like that being exclusively onething is maybe not healthy yeah,
(22:07):
right, not.
Maybe is is not healthyobjectively, yeah, yeah, so what
else.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Okay, this is kind of a niche bit, but I would love
to get a group session goingwith all of the people who were
on the spaceship in WALL-E, whowere in their little chairs and
like floating around.
I feel like that, that movie, Ilove that movie and I feel like
I got that movie.
I love that movie and I feellike I got to watch it so much
in high school because scienceteachers would show it on like
(22:37):
like before Christmas break.
So I just I have like a verysoft spot in my heart for WALL-E
.
But they're like there's thisbeautiful moment where, like the
screens flicker and you see twoof the people who are on that
spaceship like look at a humanbeing not through a screen for
the first time, and it's sobeautiful and like they, they
(22:58):
work together and they like saveall these babies that are on
the spaceship.
I think it's been a minute.
I've not been in high school fora while but I think having a
like a group therapy for all thepeople who are on that ship,
because they're going to likerepopulate the earth at the end
Spoiler alert for the ending ofWALL-E and like that's a whole
new like living environment forthem, and also they haven't been
interacting with each other orlike eating solid food.
(23:19):
They've only been having thoselittle like milkshake things.
I would love to get themtogether and be like let's learn
how to interact with each other, and also, like I'm sure their
motivation is quite low and youknow, there's like a lot of
different skills, and so Ialways think about them and how,
like.
I don't think Wally, too, is inthe works, but I would be very
interested in like trying tofigure out how that's going to
(23:41):
work.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, okay, I think that there are so many good
characters that arerepresentative of of very human
experiences, and so we couldprobably spend time going
through a million more and wewill cover a couple more, but
maybe we missed one of yourfavorite characters.
So, you know, certainly feelfree to like, share that with us
(24:04):
.
We can always come back to.
You know, part two of theDisney Di manual.
I know one that for me, maybeas an elder millennial, that was
very foundational, I guessmight be the right word.
I don't know, maybefoundational is not the right
word, but pretty epic, in notthe best way, is Simba,
(24:28):
especially the part where Mufasadies spoiler alert and that,
like what happens after with thegrief and like some of the the
layered family, like dynamicswith Scar especially.
You know how Simba, as such ayoung character, learns how to
(24:49):
cope is by avoiding, by runningaway, and that he feels a lot of
guilt and shame around it, andso those are things that, like I
, you know, I would say it'sprobably my favorite animal
Disney movie I classify themdifferently, right, and that's
one of my favorite animal movies, but that there is like sort of
that resilience building toafter he's grown a little and
(25:13):
you know spent his time away andthen you know talk to Rafiki
and really kind of changed hisperspective on things, right,
and so I think it's it's sort ofcontinuing that like in helping
him believe in himself andmaybe process the guilt and the
shame and the grief that.
That in helping him believe inhimself and maybe process the
guilt and the shame and thegrief that that he experienced.
(25:35):
But that clip right Like justpulls a lot of emotion for me as
an elder millennial.
But I have a few people I wantto throw at you like quick fire,
just some things that maybe youfeel like what would you do?
And this one I'm as I'm likethinking about it as an elder
(25:57):
millennial, I'm like I hopeshe's seen this one.
So if not, I will, like youknow, phone a friend and all
I'll give some insights.
But I number one, the trampfrom lady and the tramp okay,
incredible pull.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Of course I'm familiar.
Oh my gosh, what would I dowith tramp?
I feel like he has some reallyunhelpful core beliefs about,
like his function in the worldand like what he brings to
relationships, yeah, and so Ifeel like we could do a lot of
work with like okay, where arethese beliefs coming from?
Are they coming fromexperiences?
Are they coming from, like, howthe world interacts with dogs
(26:36):
that don't have like a moredefined breed, like is there
some stigma that's happening?
So I feel like I feel liketramp could use some like
feminist interventions and maybesome cbt, maybe some
exploration of like attachmentissues.
Oh yeah, yeah, he has layers, hehas layers.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I like that's such a throwback, but I was really like
, hmm, I would like to, and Iwould like to sit with him and
learn more, you know, okay, whatabout in this?
I almost just set it up to likesaying what about Bruno from
Encanto?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Oh my gosh, that whole family needs some help and
someone to sit with them.
Bruno, oh my gosh, I feel likehe has a lot of avoidant
tendencies, obviously Like helocked himself away.
He was made the scapegoat right, like there's lots of family
(27:36):
dynamics, like the black sheepof the family.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
we don't talk about Bruno and I thought I wonder,
like, how Bruno has internalizedthat.
I feel like, yeah, while we getto learn about him in the film,
like like I still want to knowmore and I want to help him feel
like empowered to like embracehimself more and, you know, if
(28:02):
possible, find healthy ways tosort of embrace the family, if
desired.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think it'd also be tough because with a lot of my
clients I talk aboutcatastrophizing and fortune
telling and he has a very uniquething where it's not guaranteed
the things he sees are going tohappen.
So maybe that's where it's likethe power of perhaps kind of
thing.
But I think that's a specialchallenge for him.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Okay, last one, tiana , from the Princess and the Frog
.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
That's my best friend , miss Tiana herself.
I feel like I we need to expandher identity outside of work
and like it's been that way forso long, and also like she loves
the restaurant.
I'm not saying she can't have,she needs to have the restaurant
.
She should have a passion, havea passion right, but like that
was her dad's you know what Imean.
(28:55):
Like that's a dream she pickedup from her dad and so maybe she
has like like foreclosed alittle bit on her identity
exploration.
I think we see her grow throughthe course of the movie and
like realize there's thingsoutside of like working and
getting this restaurant, butalso just like I feel like she
needs more cliff boundaries, Ifeel like she needs more, a
little more honest communicationwith her friends or like being
(29:17):
more open to her friends.
Because, like, at first glancelottie is like selfish and you
know like not as interested inother people.
But when you watch that movie,lottie is a really good friend
and it's like ready to show upfor her.
But Tiana doesn't give her alot of opportunities for that
and so I feel like, yeah, that's, I love her.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I find that incredibly relatable to a lot of
clients' experiences, becauseso many people struggle asking
for help, right, even thoughthey might show up to sessions
and stuff like that, and they,they, they are seeking support
in ways that they feel like safedoing.
So they don't feel ascomfortable asking people who
(29:59):
would be willing to support themto support them, and so it's an
interesting but reallyrelatable part of of things.
In interest of time, do you,you know you want to throw any
my way, or do we want to move tosome of?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I think I have one that we haven't talked about,
that I just feel verypassionately about, and it's
nani from lilo and stitch okay,I haven't seen that no what okay
, I think I was afraid it lookedtoo emotional and I was like I
can, I can't, I just can't.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
It is, it is emotional.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
She's parentified long and short of it.
I mean by the circumstancestheir parents pass away.
She's raising Lilo but likeshe's also still pretty young
and there's a lot of like thesocial workers involved and like
they're navigating that processtogether as a family.
And I've heard there's changesto the live action.
(31:01):
I haven't seen it.
Maybe I should get on that.
But in the animated version yousee how the social worker whose
name is Cobra Bubbles he's anicon and a diva is like he wants
to work with Nani and make sureshe has adequate support from
their family and like friends onthe island and the and Jamba
and Pleakley.
You've got to get into Lilo andStitch.
But anyways she's parentified,but I feel like that's the like
Disney elder sibling, becausenone of them have parents,
(31:23):
especially the old ones.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yes, that's part of the evolution.
I'm going to share a couple ofquick fun facts just so that
people kind of have a betterunderstanding of maybe some of
the research that like isconnected to this.
In 2021, there's an APA articlethat talked about how animated
films can help children talkabout their complex emotions in
safe, accessible ways.
So sort of speaks to thatearlier research that we
(31:48):
discussed about like bondingmore with fictional characters
over like public figures orcelebrities, which makes Disney,
pixar, as well as other films,really great opportunities for
mental health education.
So much so Pixar's Inside Outis actually cited in actual
social emotional learning liketools now and programs is a
(32:12):
classroom tool.
And lastly, like I think thisspeaks more to some of that
evolution that we were justtouching on beyond like parents,
is that Disney princess rolesspecifically, have shifted from
like more passive, being rescuedby the prince roles, to more
complex characters with familydynamics, identity struggle
(32:36):
issues, grief, anxiety, etc.
And so I think that that justis really part of how, like what
you mentioned at the start ofthe episode, things are becoming
more emotionally intelligentand you know, I think it's
really cool that we did do someI guess game is the best way to
put it, but we did someengagement with you as the
(32:58):
listeners, on our social mediaaccount at Ohio Counseling on
Instagram.
Ohio Counseling Association onFacebook and LinkedIn, and just
wanted to share some of theseplayful diagnoses that our
listeners had engaged with usand shared.
So Sleeping Beauty has chronicfatigue syndrome.
We, you know, accurate rightbell with the bookworm brain rot
(33:23):
as a diagnosis.
You know I, I like it.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think she, she finds joy in that brain rotting
through her books, right throughher reading I will say it's
probably doing better things forher attention span than our
version of brain rot.
Sure is yes.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
This one I had a giggle with King Triton meets
criteria for GDD grumpy daddisorder with a Z code for TMTD.
This part made me laugh.
Too many teen daughters.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I have some parents who are meeting criteria for
that as well.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Someone also said Jasmine meets the criteria for
MCD magic carpet disorder and Iwas like, is this magical
thinking?
Like I was like we could go somany different directions.
And then, an honorable mention,it wasn't Disney, it was Donkey
from Shrek, with maybe somehistrionic stuff going on as
well.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I think I could do a five-hour lecture on the
characters from Shrek and theirvarious happenings.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Maybe we need another episode.
I don't know Shrek-centric,just Shrek Sure.
I love that.
I don't know Shrek-centric,just Shrek Sure.
I love that.
I'm very open to that.
So we have one final gamebefore we sort of wrap it up,
and we want you to be thinkingabout these things too.
As we're thinking, we hope thatyou're in your car, in your
home, having similar reflections, unpacking this with us.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Okay.
So we're going to play weplayed it last time, which we
really loved which is unpack itor put it back and we're just
going to go through a couple ofthings that are common in Disney
movies and we're going to sayif we want to keep them or if
maybe it's time to rethink them,Unpack or put it back.
So the first one is therapyanimals in films.
And we're talking like PascalEntangled, the Little Chameleon.
(35:19):
How do we feel?
Pip and Enchanted.
Yes, Pip is such an icon.
I love Pip.
I feel like I'm unpacking allday long.
I need those little guys.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Unpack yes, well, I need them in real life and in
Disney.
So, yes, unpack all day, everyday.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Agreed A hundred percent.
The next one is songs asemotional processing which I
feel like Elsa has been kind ofour spotlight icon of the
episode but like let it go.
Or I think about Moana.
How reflection how far I'll go,moana, we're going places all
day, every day, also in reallife.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I I think music as catharsis is incredible, so I
like it for emotional processing, for our characters and for us
as counselors and our clients amillion percent agree, all right
.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
The next one is villain redemption arcs.
What do we feel?
Unpack, okay, you know I havestrong feelings.
I think sometimes unpack,sometimes put it back, sometimes
people are doing unforgivablethings, sure yeah, and they need
(36:35):
to fall into lava.
Like sorry, the charactersFrollo from the hunchback of
nerdom, get him in the lava, I'mdone, I'm over it and he does
go in the lava.
I will say I'll say the newercharacters have greater
emotional depth and I'm okaywith them being redeemed.
(36:57):
But I think sometimes hardtimes are important.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
We would understand their behaviors or patterns
better if we had more context,right, and so I love to see
redemption and like it.
It's conflicting, right, but Ithink that that's like very
human too, where we can seepeople who have done harm but
(37:25):
maybe have compassion for themin some ways.
Does that mean we don't haveboundaries and that we accept
all bad behaviors?
Absolutely not, right, this isnuanced, but I think it's
helpful to to see that in infilm, to maybe have, and for
those people who feel likethey're the villain, that they
(37:47):
get to see a redemption arc thatthey like they are worthy of
redemption.
Yeah, that I, I like it forthat reason.
That does not mean we acceptbad behavior or, you know,
harmful like stuff from themalways, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
People can change.
I think that's the whole youknow, that's our whole thing.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, of course we believe that Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
We have a couple more Comic relief sidekicks as
coping mechanisms.
Uh, I mean sure humor's good Unyeah, I think there is a limit
to it, as with all things butyeah right right yeah, sometimes
.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Sometimes it's an avoidance thing too, where, like
the humor might be like, okay,well, that's unhelpful.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
But yes, on the whole , more unpack than put it back I
don't think it's going to be asurprise the last one for either
of us, because I think it's thepoint of our whole episode but
magical realism as a metaphorfor trauma.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I mean, yeah, mostly we unpack because that's part of
like why this is relatable.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
No, yes, a million percent unpack, I think you know
, as long as we can bring itback to ourselves and like
reality, yes, a million percentunpack all day long.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I love a metaphor I speak exclusively in metaphors,
exaggerated examples sometimesmight might feel like, oh, this
isn't like reflective of myexperience or it's you know,
it's too simplified in some waystoo, because we don't always we
(39:26):
know that, like Cinderella'smother died when she was young,
but we don't really know thedetails behind it and how she's
experienced that, aside from howshe experienced her stepmother
and step sisters right, like wedon't really know the grief
parts, or like if it wassomething you know, I think
losing a parent at a young ageis arguably traumatic, but like
(39:49):
we don't know the details and soit can be relatable, but like
maybe passive and so maybe it'snot always there, but maybe that
gives us more ideas for film, Iguess yeah, the box is open,
but we haven't taken everythingout of it exactly that.
I think it's important.
(40:09):
You know, again, this is meantfor entertainment and to be
playful and to sort of just getour brains thinking about things
that are fun and maybe alignedwith our roles as counselors,
but also to remind ourselves wecan learn a lot about ourselves
and our clients through thecharacters that we love and that
(40:30):
even sometimes fairy tales needa little unpacking right.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
And I think that wraps up this episode of let's
Unpack that.
Make sure you're subscribed soyou never miss an update, and if
you have questions, feedback ora topic you'd like us to unpack
, be sure to drop us a line.
You can send us a text from thelink in our show notes or
connect with our socials.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Thanks for joining us for let's Unpack that brought
to you by Ohio CounselingConversations and the Ohio
Counseling Association.
If it sparked something for you, share it with a colleague or
drop us a line.
We'd love to keep theconversation going.
Thanks for listening and untilnext time we encourage you to
keep unpacking the big stuff,one conversation at a time.
(41:14):
Thank you, Thank you.
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