December 17, 2025 • 41 mins
We play Unpack or Put It Back to test “therapy rules” against context, ethics and real human needs. From snacks and coffee tables to hugs, swearing and self disclosure, we explain how intention and relationship guide what helps and what harms.
• modeling self care with snacks and breaks
• room design signals safety and collaboration
• measured praise that scaffolds internal validation
• nuanced boundaries around hugs and comfort
• swearing as authentic language, not aggression
• thoughtful self disclosure to reduce shame
• accepting nominal gifts without role confusion
• authentic presence over blank slate posturing
• purposeful note taking and client preferences
• relatable dress to soften power dynamics
• movement sessions with informed consent
• clear CTA to keep the conversation going
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If it sparks something for you, share it with a colleague or drop us a line. We’d love to keep the conversation going.
What do you think? Send us your questions or topics you'd like us to unpack!
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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee
·Hosted by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier
·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill and Victoria Frazier
·Editing by Leah Wood & Marisa Cargill
·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Welcome to Let's Unpack That, a short form
segment from Ohio CounselingConversations, where we dig into
the topics, tools, and truthsthat shape our work as
counselors.
Whether it's a trending issue, aclinical insight, or something
we've all been thinking about,we're here to process it
together.
(01:05):
Welcome back to Ohio CounselingConversations.
Let's unpack that.
Today we are going to do a wholeepisode of a game you've heard
us play, unpack or put it back.
And this episode is reallyinspired by TikTok trends that
we've noticed where counselorsare debating what really belongs
in counseling sessions withrules that they break or rules
(01:27):
that they follow as a counselor.
And we're just gonna throw out atopic and each of us will decide
do we unpack it or lovingly putit back on the shelf?
I'm your host, Marissa Cargill.
And I'm Victoria Fraser.
Let's jump in.
Okay, so Tori, first on thelist, eating and session, unpack
(01:51):
or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
I feel like this is gonna be our catchphrase, but it
depends.
I think if you're having like afull fork and knife meal, that's
really different to like havingpretzels.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Correct.
Yeah, like it depends on so yes,to like unpack if it's a snack
or something, put it back ifit's like dining.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Yeah, I mean, especially because a lot of my
clients come straight fromschool or work, and so they're
hungry when they get here.
And sometimes they feel reallyawkward.
And so if they're eating, and ifeating is something that's
challenging for them, or justlike if they have anxiety and
they don't want to bedisruptive, or if we're working
(02:39):
on like people-pleasingbehaviors, I sometimes will eat
with them, and I keep likegoldfish or pretzels, and those
are I keep those for my clientstoo in my office, but I think it
helps kind of destigmatizeeating if that is something that
they have like some struggleswith, and I think also it just
(03:00):
like helps us feel morecomfortable, like that's
something we do to connect withother people.
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I say unpack too.
I think part of me it's aboutlike modeling if I'm saying like
we need to tend to ourselves ifsome like a goal that we're
working on is that like we needto do what's in our own best
self-interest at times.
(03:28):
It's like, well, then likesometimes you need a snack, and
like there are times where maybeI've just had a lot of
back-to-back appointments orsomething, and I'm like starving
to the point where I know I'mgonna like feel or hear my
stomach growl, whether or not myclients can, you know.
Thankfully, I'm in telhealth, sosometimes that's not as
noticeable through a computerscreen, but I usually will just
(03:50):
like acknowledge, like or askand and consider like what it is
that I'm eating.
Like I'm not sitting down andlike having like you know, a sub
sandwich here, but I might bringsome pretzels or you know, even
just like a cookie or something,like where I can pick it apart
(04:11):
piece by piece, like it's justsomething that I can make sure
that I'm nourishing my bodysomehow.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Yeah, definitely.
I am kind of imagining youeating a full like sub-way swap,
like sub.
I just feel like is this okay?
Like you're in a cartoon orsomething, like and you know
what?
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
Like, I feel like I could make the case where like
that's appropriate if like youwere working on like you said,
like if if people have likestruggle eating, and sometimes
like eating a meal, therecouldn't be a case where that's
appropriate, but just ingeneral, I think it's like okay,
I'm just acknowledging like I'ma human who has needs and like
it's important to show those,and like that it also maybe just
(04:57):
helps me stay focused.
Like, if I'm not if I'm starvingand my stomach's growling, then
I'm I might struggle being morepresent.
And so like I think Iacknowledge like hey, like
that's gonna help me do this,this work.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Not to like skip ahead, but Ithink that about like bathroom
breaks too, like either likesaying, like, hey, I'm so sorry,
I have to run to the restroom,or starting a couple minutes
late because I have to use therestroom.
I just know like if I'muncomfortable physically, I
won't be able to be there withthem as fully as I would like to
(05:38):
or need to sometimes.
And so I will I will pause ortake that couple minutes.
And I also think it's importantthat like clients know that
that's their time, and if theyneed to go to the bathroom, like
yeah, don't just like get up andrun out of the room or
something.
Like, I'll think something'swrong.
(05:59):
But if you need a break or ifyou need a second, like of
course, like let's take care ofourselves.
I don't, yeah.
I I like of course punctualityand professionalism is so
important, but I just yeah, Ithink it's we need to take care
of ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Yeah, everyone.
It's something like obviouslyyou want to be really
intentional with it, but thatlike it can actually be really
meaningful if it's disruptingsomething or like it's
uncomfortable, like because I Igenerally do try to ask, like I
want to make sure, like, hey,you know, I haven't had a chance
(06:38):
to have a break yet, and so likeis it okay if I eat this snack
while while we're workingtogether today?
But that like, you know, that itthat someone feels comfortable
with that.
Most of the time, you know,that's not something I'm gonna
be doing like in an intake.
Sure.
But with someone who I have arelationship with, I think it's
definitely unpacked.
So it's never simple, yes or no,but maybe uh about the why
(07:01):
behind it, it sounds like yeah.
Now, this next one to me is sointeresting and fascinating as a
counselor educator.
I feel like when I see some ofthese TikTok trends, I'm like,
have I taught that to people?
Have I said that?
And I feel like in some of themI haven't said that exact thing,
but I've said something likesimilar.
And so what I found reallyinteresting is that I saw
(07:24):
someone specifically that theywere talking about coffee tables
in therapy rooms, and so likefascinating again, as many many
of our listeners know, like I dofull-time telehealth now, so I'm
not doing any in-personservices, but I know like when I
would teach like counselingtechniques and things like that,
I would be really intentionalabout asking students not to put
(07:46):
like a table or a desk inbetween them and their client,
like if we were doing someexercises in the classrooms,
that I wanted them to be facingeach other without any like
physical barriers.
So I think coffee tables kind ofblur that line a little bit.
But like, what's your take?
(08:08):
Unpack, put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
I honestly, when I thought about that, like that
from from my master's programlike came into my head like
don't have anything in betweenbecause it can signal like
you're closed off or it can makeconnection hard.
But I started thinking aboutjust like the practicality of
having a coffee table in my roomwould be so nice.
Yeah, like I have a table to theside of the couch, but most of
(08:32):
my people sit in the middle ofthe couch, and so that coffee
table's or the the side table'sfar away.
And with my kids, like it wouldbe so nice to have a surface to
play Uno on, or color, or justfor my for my people who bring a
snack or a drink, like to havesomewhere to set their stuff
that's convenient, or like thenumber of times my people have
(08:53):
lost their phone in the couch isnot nothing, yeah.
And so I think like practically,as aside from like the ethical
implications of a coffee table,I just I was like, Oh, do I get
a coffee table?
I don't know that my office isbig enough for a coffee table,
like as it's arranged now, but Iwas kind of like into the idea
(09:15):
of having a coffee table.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Yeah, I lean more into the unpack over putting it
back because I think it's one ofthe things that I think when I
think about like physicalbarriers is like as a desk, it's
like cutting me off midway, likewhere it it does like to me
represent a little bit moreclear being closed off where a
(09:39):
coffee table is a lowerboundary.
So, like to me, also even aslike a physical barrier, it
doesn't feel so much as abarrier, like it's present, but
it's not like disruptive, right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
I think one of the other things I think about with
desk is that it makes it feellike a meeting, like they're in
trouble or they're like talkingto their boss, and I think the
coffee table is a a verydifferent vibe to that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah.
I I think like to your point,it's it's helpful and could be
like even offering thoseopportunities to connect
differently.
Because I also think of justlike take coffee table out of
the context of a therapy space,like just you know, like growing
up, like sitting around a coffeetable, like as a kid playing at
(10:27):
the coffee table, or you know,like the tables feel more like
gathering where like a deskisn't so much that.
And so I don't know, like maybethat's just my own perception,
but I'm I'm more open to thatone than like a desk, like in
between you and a client.
(10:48):
So definitely feel like thatcould be really helpful and
powerful in the physical spaces,which kind of makes me sad.
I'm not in physical spaces withclients anymore, but that's
okay.
You know, it affects ourfeelings, even if it's an in an
inanimate object, it can affectcomfort and maybe even like
create like a coziness thatwould feel like a little more
(11:11):
vagin otherwise.
What about this is one of myfavorites because I feel like my
stance on this has evolved, butsaying to a client I'm proud of
you or giving them some kind ofpraise.
Unpacked.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
I want to hear about this evolution.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
What what changed?
I think you know, like as a babycounselor, you're following
rules that that like maybe youhaven't unpacked, you know, pun
intended enough for yourself,where um I think it was always
something where like I've beencautious of saying
(11:57):
congratulations as an educator,I would always caution clients
or clients, students, from likecongratulating clients on
certain things.
Because while it might besomething that socially we
congratulate people for, like isit something like if that's what
they're there for, is itsomething that maybe they want
(12:17):
congratulations for?
Maybe they're feeling likeawful.
Like, you know, a lot of themock sessions and techniques
class, it would just be like thestress of grad school.
And so someone would say theywere in grad school, and then
their counselor wouldcongratulate them.
But if grad school is astressor, it's like, yes,
congratulations.
And maybe it was like thinkingtoo much about it, but I think
(12:37):
it's like sometimes we have topause and and wait to learn more
before we kind of give thatfeedback.
But the I'm proud of you, Ithink it was just more like
where the where it comes from isI think like there was this idea
that we want them to feelempowered so we shouldn't praise
(12:59):
them.
Like we should want them to likebe proud of themselves.
And I think like when theintention, it means well, right?
But my evolution is that like weespecially in like a relational
mindset, heal in relationships,and it's okay to tell someone
(13:20):
that you're proud of them, andit might be really powerful for
them to hear it and empower themto consider that like they are
proud of themselves.
So I will say that when I say itto clients, I also will usually
encourage that like I hope youlike see that too.
Like, I want you to be like feellike proud of that as well.
(13:43):
But like I think it's it'simportant for us to maybe hold
up that mirror, and it's okaybecause maybe that in
relationship with any humanbeing is really meaningful for
them.
Yeah.
But I think I was afraid ofsaying it before, like it was
wrong.
Like it was like, no, they needto, like, they need to say it,
or like the I'm not supposed tosay it because I should just say
(14:07):
I want you to be proud ofyourself, kind of thing.
Like, not you don't need me tosay it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Sometimes I'll even I'm also sometimes I will tell
clients I'm proud of them ifit's something they've been
working really hard on, or likethis has been a long time
coming, or I know they'refeeling positively about it.
And I and and I'll acknowledgeto clients sometimes, like, hey,
you know, technically we're kindof taught not to do this, but I
(14:34):
think it's really important foryou to hear this from someone
outside of yourself.
And I disclaimer don't know thatthis is true, but
hypothetically, when you build ahouse, you put external support
on it first before you build theinternal structure of the house.
Like, that's why they have thoselike diagonal planks of wood
outside of walls when you'rebuilding houses.
(14:55):
And I think that sometimes it'sour job to like be the external
support while they're buildingtheir internal support.
And so obviously, we have tomake sure that like we're being
mindful of how often we're doingthat and we're not centering how
we feel about it for them, but Ithink it's really important they
get like that external, like,good job.
(15:17):
Because we we I love sociallearning theory, and I think you
only know you're funny if peoplelaugh at your jokes.
And so, how are you meant toknow you're doing a good job or
like you're working towards whatcan sometimes be a really
abstract goal in counseling,unless the person you trust and
your expert on the subject tellsyou, like, yeah, this is going
well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
Yeah, I agree.
I think it's like one of thosesituations where we want to make
sure we're still likedecentering our opinion about
it, but at the same time, like Ithink there's part of us that
like we don't want to deny thehumanity of like, hey, it's okay
to appreciate or enjoy externalvalidation.
(15:58):
We don't want to live andbreathe by it, right?
Like, we can't only like livefor the applause.
But that's it's okay to enjoyit.
Like, that's okay to appreciateand enjoy like external
validation.
We want to build like thesupports so there's internal
validation too.
(16:18):
But yeah, I I wholeheartedly amwith you on that.
I think what's helpful is likesometimes we need to learn like
the stricter rules so that wecan experiment with like okay,
now it's okay for me to tellsomeone this, and it's important
that I have a relationship withthem, and it's important that I
know that this isn't going thatthey're going to be seeking my
(16:40):
approval and stuff like that.
That we have to have some somefoundation before maybe we can
do that, but it's important.
So, you know, maybe it's alsolike you worked really hard for
that, and I want to likeacknowledge that.
Like, I want to acknowledge yourprogress.
Another one, and I feel likeTori, you might have a a good
(17:01):
take on this, especially becauseyou work primarily with like
with younger people, and so Ithink it's a little different.
And honestly, I don't have muchof an opinion because of the
telehealth stuff.
But what about hugs in therapy?
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah, this is uh yeah, I am not I'm a very huggy
person, like at like as a humanbeing, but when I'm in my office
and like when I'm working, I'mnot a super big like hug for
clients kind of person, justbecause especially with the
littles, like I think thoseboundaries are really important,
(17:36):
and like as much as I enjoy myclients, I'm not their friend,
and I think that that issomething that's really hard
because with the kids you dowant to make such a strong bond
and you want to have things incommon and and make sure that
they know like you're on theirlevel and you're trying to be as
egalitarian as possible, but atthe same time, like that can get
(17:59):
muddled.
There, I can count, I think, onmy hand of the number of times
I've hugged a client and I'venever initiated a hug either.
It's usually been someone underseven who's having a really big
like emotional moment andthey're feeling really scared,
and they just kind of go for it.
And I think it would at thatpoint it would be so damaging
(18:22):
for me not to respond to thembecause they are being so
vulnerable.
And I think that that is soinnate.
I think when you're older, wecan talk about ways to do some
of that self-soothing, but Ithink that's really high level
for a little brain, and that'shard.
I do keep I keep a really bigsquish mallow in my office that
(18:45):
looks like a dumpling.
And his name is Timothy, andTimothy is kind of my hug proxy.
Like I'll have them hug Timothy.
The only other time I've huggeda client is sometimes at
termination sessions.
Clients will ask for a hug, andI think that like that to me is
okay.
(19:06):
That's my other kind ofexception.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Yeah.
With telehealth, I obviouslycan't hug anyone, so that makes
the decision for me pretty easy.
But like, yeah, in former rolesand things like that,
termination I think was probablythe most common reason I might
like give someone a hug.
But generally speaking, it wasmore like they wanted, you know,
can I give you a hug?
And it's like, yeah, like butwasn't maybe like a regular
(19:32):
occurrence within the thecounseling relationship.
And I breaking one of the otherrules.
I think like when I worked in acollege setting was hard as like
the the physical space was thatoftentimes there was a desk.
And so there was like a physicalbarrier sometimes within that.
That was like literally not thephysical space to have a
(19:56):
separate um situation where Icould go move to a chair or put
them on a couch where we weremore in like a very sterile type
setting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I tried to make it as cozy as Icould within those parameters
for what it's worth.
And but you know, that that kindof I think prevented even like
(20:16):
some of the other situationswhere a hug might come up.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah.
I think it it was really hardfor me at first to say no.
And then I talked with like mysupervisor and a couple of my
friends in my program, and wetalked about how it's good to
model those boundaries if youare saying no and saying and and
explaining it to them like thisis why it's not you know
(20:40):
boundaries.
Practice really to do hugs andproviding them alternatives, but
I think it's so important toknow what you're comfortable
with as a clinician.
And like maybe there areclinicians who feel really
comfortable with that, and thatthat's something that they they
they really think is helpful.
And I I don't think it's like ahard no, especially with like if
(21:00):
we think about intersectingidentities and cultural norms
and things like that.
Like some cultures just are morelike touch focused, and that's
more casual.
And so I think there's alwayslike space for that, yeah, too.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
So we put some calls out on social media, and some
other folks like maybe sharedsome comments of some of the
other maybe hot takes or rulesthat might be more commonly
broken or like adjusted,depending on like the the
context.
So a couple more, and we cankind of go rapid rapid fire with
(21:37):
like unpack or put it back and aquick explanation, but swearing
in sessions, unpack or put itback.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Unpack a million percent.
I think it makes it likehumanizes you so much, it makes
clients feel comfortableexpressing themselves however
they want.
I think there's a differencebetween them swearing to you
versus at you.
Like I don't want anyone to callme a swear word, but if you need
to swear to express yourself, Ithink that's fine.
(22:06):
I think it's fine.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
And I like I waffle, I think on my stance with this,
but like yes, typically unpack.
I used to think like, oh I'llwait until they swear, and then
I will like let them know, like,oh, I swear too, and like that's
fine, and like now we can sweartogether.
But I think sometimes, andobviously I'm not trying to
(22:28):
swear at my clients either, likein in the opposite direction,
but that like if they'veexpressed something and it kind
of is almost like, I feel like,you know, I can sense that like
this is something that feels,you know, like I want to let it
out.
I might be like, you know, let'sdrop a WTH or or whatever to let
(22:51):
them know like it's okay here.
It's and like if that's helpful,because a lot of people will
apologize when they swear.
And and I mean, I think that'sto the degree you feel
comfortable as a counselor too,but like to me it's it's their
safe space, and so like theyshould feel comfortable doing
that.
I don't want to offend anyone.
So try to be really conscious ofof when and where and how it
comes up, but like if I'mgetting the sense that it it's
(23:15):
fine, I might model like, hey,yeah, you can be as comfortable
as you want.
Like, we don't have to put onthat, like that mask of like,
you know, not using languagethat we would typically use
outside of session.
So generally speaking, unpack,I'm sure there are some some
exceptions.
How about like beyond hugs, likecomforting clients?
(23:37):
And I know that we talked a lotabout this in like the first
episode of Let's Unpack Thatwith the Tissue Issue, but just
like comforting clients ingeneral, whether that be like
with a word, a tissue, a hug, Idon't know.
Are there some strong feelings?
Unpack.
Yeah, same.
Yeah.
I think like when we thinkconsider like that we are
(23:58):
modeling relationships forpeople, that it's helpful to
offer them like the humanity wewould want them to feel to maybe
get more comfortable acceptingor to show them that like the
people can offer that, even ifthat's not something that
they're familiar with, that thatthat's helpful.
This one feels very, I don'tknow, like pop culture-y, which
(24:23):
I appreciate as someone who justloves media, but saying like
same to clients, like if if yourelate and you're like, yeah, I
get that, you know, instead ofhow do you feel?
Like as a means of likeself-disclosure.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yeah, I think I think just I'm I use so much
like feminist theory in how Iapproach counselors, and I think
self-disclosure can be such avaluable tool as long as we're,
you know, centering the clientand considering why that
self-disclosure would be usefulin the moment.
I think it's so helpful.
(25:00):
Like, especially when I have Ihave like a case subsection on
my caseload of adults with OCD,especially ones who it was
undiagnosed for quite a longtime, and self-disclosure with
them are like, yeah, I've had anintrusive thought that sounds
like that, can be sorevolutionary because it it's
such a like the call is comingfrom inside the house.
(25:22):
Yeah.
And so I think it can it itmakes it less scary.
I think it humanizes it.
I think it can provideopportunities for laughter and
yeah, big big fan within reason.
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's one of those Isaw some someone on TikTok and I
wish I could remember.
I think her name was Lauren.
If I can tag her, I'll tag herin our show notes.
But she was saying, like talkingabout how she was grateful that
(25:54):
she learned the strict rulesahead of time, right?
Like, hey, we're not supposed toself-disclose unless it's really
to the client's benefit.
But that like now is morecomfortable with self-disclosure
because like yes, I can disclosemore and it can still only to be
to the benefit of the client.
Like it was a skill that's like,hey, use sparingly, use
(26:15):
sparingly, because babycounselors maybe need like some
strict rules so that they know,like, and then they can reflect
and be really intentional andthoughtful when they begin to
use them.
And when she was speaking aboutit, she was talking about like
comparing it to like learningmath or something, and it was a
really good comparison that shemade.
I'm not gonna but m math is nono, thank you.
(26:38):
I was thinking about like andthis is maybe really a bad
comparison, but like when you'relearning how to drive, right?
And you learn all the rules andit's 10 and 2, and you like
really try to like do all ofthese things, and like I'm not
gonna say I don't hold my handsat 10 and 2 ever, but like I'm a
little bit more relaxed at thewheel now.
(26:59):
And I felt like that was like areally good way to think about
how self-disclosure, and maybesome of these other roles even
have evolved over time, like inmy own professional like
journey.
That like, okay, I'm still doingit for the same reason and I'm
still kind of staying within theright parameters, but I'm able
to use this skill morefrequently, but like to humanize
(27:21):
myself, like and make that likea more equitable relationship,
like that the power differentialis less.
I I really like that one.
I know I said let's be briefwith these, and then I go into a
whole dissertation on that one.
But all right, next oneaccepting gifts from clients,
unpack or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
I think cautiously unpack.
I think obviously let's not betaking Lamborghinis, but if it's
a cookie or a beverage orsomething, like I think that's
really different.
And like with my kids, sometimesthey'll bring me like a flower
they picked or like a drawingthey made me, or like I have I
(28:05):
have a I have a kid, she's sosweet, she for her birthday she
wants to give other peoplepresents, and so like for her
birthday every year she has awhite elephant gift exchange
with her friends, and so likethat's something that's really
important to her.
And I I always think about likeis this gonna hurt their
feelings?
Is this gonna damage theirrelationship?
(28:26):
And also, like, I think I thisis just natural to me would
always go, Oh, you didn't haveto do that, are you sure?
And like giving, I don't thinkthey're ever, I don't I don't
know, I've never had anyone belike, oh, actually never mind,
but I think giving them thatconsideration and that
opportunity to reflect is and Ialso think like I break the
opposite rule a little bit.
(28:47):
If I like I give my kidsstickers at the end of their
session just because it's theyhad to focus for a long time, or
they like to take them home andshow their their parents or
their siblings, or some of themhave little like sticker
passports that we use to writedown something, like we learned
something new that day, they'llpick a sticker that goes with
(29:08):
the the skill.
And so I kind of break theopposite.
I mean, I'm not giving away likeyeah, you know, I'm not bribing
people with anything, but justlike to help them remember or
commemorate, I I think that'slovely, or I'll bring like
someone a sucker on theirbirthday or something like that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:23):
Yeah.
I I think same, like, yeah, wewant to like stay within our
ethical confines and andwhatnot.
But like part of that is wouldit do damage to the relationship
if I decline, like, right?
And so given if it's nominal,like we probably benefit from
like accepting that because itwas done with like good
(29:45):
intention and like meaningbehind it.
And so a lot of times, you know,it would jeopardize the
stability of the relationship ifwe weren't willing, because that
could be really hurtful.
You know, obviously if it'ssomething that's a little bit
beyond nominal, then we have to,you know, maybe have a
conversation with them about whyit's not appropriate to accept.
(30:08):
But I think in most cases, youknow, they're people kind of
gather like that they're notgonna be bringing us, you know,
sports cars or, you know,high-end anything.
It's more from the heart, andthat's the the important part
when we consider whether weaccept it.
And I think to your point,giving gifts at times is is
(30:31):
meaningful and it still has tostay within those confines of
like being nominal, but thatthat that's sort of it kind of
harkens to the I'm proud of youthing that we want people to be
self be celebrated, feelcelebrated.
Blank slate therapists unpack orput it back?
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Put put it unpack the farthest.
Like I think for me, if when I'ma client, if I say something
that was really hurtful orsomething really scary that
happened to me, and I getnothing in return, I feel like
(31:13):
I'm being dramatic.
Yeah.
And I also think like some of myclients have have people who
don't understand in their life,and they get that blank slight
response at home.
And I think it's soinvalidating, and I think like
obviously I'm very humanistic,and like I don't think I can
(31:36):
show up as anyone but who I am,and I have a face journey when
someone tells me they dropped apiece of pizza on the ground.
I look like I've discovered ahorrific accident, and so I
think when I started, I tried tobe very blank sleep, and it felt
so inauthentic to me.
And I was thinking so much aboutwhat my face was doing and not
(31:56):
what was happening, and I'venever had a client say anything
to me about my face other thanthank you, thank you, because
that's how I felt.
SPEAKER_00 (32:06):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, I'm gonna hit you withthe favorite answers, but it
depends because I think certainpeople respond well to like
certain things, and so I thinkfor me, I I am an expressive
person, but sometimes I might bea slower responder when I'm with
clients because I am likewaiting to hear all of it before
(32:27):
I can figure out what myreaction is, right?
Yeah, because I don't want to beso expressive where they like
they it shuts them down, and soI think sometimes I like do hold
back a little bit, not because Idon't want to give an authentic
response, like I my eye, youknow, like I'm I might like keep
part of my face a little bitmore blank, and but my eyes
(32:50):
might be like wide, you know,like okay, I'm still listening,
like keep going, but I don'twant to have like the rest of my
reaction until I have heard whatelse they have to say.
So I wouldn't say blank, but I II try to at least kind of be
conscious of it when I can,which again in telehealth maybe
(33:10):
is a weirder thing to be kind ofattuned to because I see my
face, you know.
Yeah, I still try to make it thesmaller square, right?
But like I can still tell, like,what kind of face am I giving
this person in response to whatthey're saying?
So I'm I guess I'm likemonitoring myself a little bit
more, but not because I don'twant an authentic reaction, but
(33:32):
because I think like sometimes Ijust don't want to disrupt the
flow in the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
No, that's a good point.
I think my reactions are sosilent and I'm nodding like
while I'm doing them, and sothere's always this signal of
like keep talking.
Yes.
Like, you know, I think if itwas if if it became intrusive
where like a client would stoptheir story or you know, like
like if it became disruptive,obviously that's different, but
(34:01):
yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_00 (34:03):
Yeah, and you know, like I think like sometimes
there could be cause forinterrupting it to be like,
wait, hold on a second, you'retelling me this happened?
Like, I I get it, and I thinklike everything is nuanced, but
I would say like not blank, butnot maybe like the fullest
expression, depending on thecircumstance.
(34:27):
Okay, two more.
Um, actually, no, a few more.
I can't count.
This one, I felt like I had astrong stance as a counselor
educator, but taking notes insession, unpack or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (34:41):
I halfway.
I take notes with my grown-upsbecause I'm a computer and
session person, which I wasnever when I was in my master's
program in like my first year ofpractice.
But just concurrent note-takingreally saves lives.
And so, like, for me, just Ihave when I go home, I try to be
(35:04):
really strict with myself aboutnot taking work out and thinking
about clients, and so but withmy kids, like if we're in the
sand tray or we're playingBarbie or you know, we're like
that, obviously I can't takenotes.
I'll like scratch notes after,but I really think it depends.
Or if I I've had people beforewho who who worry a lot about
(35:25):
what I'm writing, and so forthose clients I don't take
notes, so I think it reallydepends, but most of the time if
I can get away with it, and Iwill say I put it's it's I I put
my computer to the side and it'son a pillow, so it feels very
cash when I do it.
But yeah, that's where I'm at.
What about you?
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
I have to.
So I would say unpack.
I think it's important to likeassess their comfort to your
point of like some clients mightnot be comfortable with it.
It's so meaningful.
Like, I I do try to make sureI'm not like that's not my
focus, but especially like I ifI wanna they just said something
really meaningful and I don'twant to forget that they said
(36:09):
that, like I need to jot thatdown.
Or if they're in the middle ofsomething and I have a thought
about like, well, is this apattern based off of stuff we've
talked about in other sessions?
I might write down like whatthat thought was so I don't lose
it if I need to come back to it,but like I don't try to be like
writing throughout, but likealso, you know, with like if I'm
(36:30):
going into like EMDR sessionswith the client, like it's
critical that I am taking notes,like because I'm kind of
watching like how they'readapting, and so it can be
really meaningful andpurposeful, and so like I would
say like for me it's a must,although it can be in different
like intensity depending on theclient.
(36:52):
Dress code, like do you feellike they're I guess this is
broad, so unpack or put it back.
I mean, like I think as I wascoming up into the profession,
it was more at least like abusiness casual or something to
that effect where I think thatis not my stance anymore.
(37:12):
But what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (37:17):
I am a casual girl.
I I'll wear like a sweater andjeans.
I mean, I'm not showing up incookie monster pajama pants or
like ripped jeans or something,but I think again it goes back
to that like I am a human beingand this is how I'm most
comfortable.
And also it can be intimidatingfor people to come to to therapy
(37:42):
and to to to meet with acounselor, and so I think if I
can remove that barrier to entryby looking like a normal lady,
then I'm very happy to do thatbecause it's also more
comfortable for me.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah, that was part of my evolution into the
profession, like just dresscode, but also like some of
these things where we talk aboutthe power differential and like
normalizing things.
I remember thinking like, oh,I'm never gonna take soda into a
(38:17):
session because like I know Ishouldn't be addicted to Diet
Coke, so like I'm not gonna takethe Diet Coke in because like
that's not modeling goodbehavior.
You could argue, yeah, likemaybe you wanna like take that
stance, sure, but I also like wecan humanize that.
Like, I I'm not a going exampleof a perfect human.
(38:37):
I am just a human.
There is no such thing as aperfect human.
And so I think like I havedifferent views on it now than I
I did, and that comes to likebeverages and session, dress
code as well.
So yeah, like I think it's alsoreally important that clients
feel like we're like them, andin order to do that, me wearing
(39:02):
like a power suit maybe isn'tthe vibe, especially in
telehealth.
Um my gosh, yeah.
What about walking with clients,like doing moving sessions?
That's the last one I have foryou.
Unpack or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
I don't really go for walks, but I will play
volleyball and soccer, and Ilove to go outside with my
clients with the knowledge thatlike we can't ensure the most
privacy.
Yeah.
Or, you know, but I love it.
I think it helps clients get outof their heads.
I think it helps me regulatewhen it lines up with that.
(39:42):
Like, yeah, I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:44):
Yeah, I agree.
I think like if it's somethingthat it's intentional and often,
like, yeah, you can build thatinto informed consent and like
some of your paperwork and whathave you, that like obviously if
we're gonna meet at a park andgo for a walk, like that, we
can't like ensure all of this,but that that can be really
helpful.
I you know, I want clients tofeel empowered to do what they
(40:06):
need to do in a session.
And if that means that you aremaking a crock pot meal while
we're in session, because that'shelpful to you, like I'm not
this is your session, like yeah,I want you to be able to focus.
No, you shouldn't be drivingwhile we're meeting, but like if
it's also something that, like,hey, this takes a load off for
(40:26):
you, like, cool.
And if and I think beingoutdoors and moving is something
that we know is really good forour own health, mental health,
and well being, then whywouldn't we?
Do that with clients and modelthat or engage in that.
So any that you feel like weneed to unpack or put back that
(40:50):
we haven't.
I think so.
I think that was such a goodlist.
Yeah.
And we want you to think ofothers.
Certainly we can play this game,you know, again and want to hear
from you.
So feel free to drop us a linein the show notes or reach out
to us on social media.
This was another edition ofLet's Unpack That, where we
remember that in counselingcontext is everything.
(41:12):
Let us know what you want tounpack next.
Thanks for joining us for Let'sUnpack That, brought to you by
Ohio Counseling Conversationsand the Ohio Counseling
Association.
If it sparks something for you,share it with a colleague or
drop us a line.
We'd love to keep theconversation going.
Thanks for listening.
And until next time, weencourage you to keep unpacking
(41:35):
the big stuff one conversationat a time.
Welcome to Let's Unpack That, a short form
segment from Ohio CounselingConversations, where we dig into
the topics, tools, and truthsthat shape our work as
counselors.
Whether it's a trending issue, aclinical insight, or something
we've all been thinking about,we're here to process it
together.
(01:05):
Welcome back to Ohio CounselingConversations.
Let's unpack that.
Today we are going to do a wholeepisode of a game you've heard
us play, unpack or put it back.
And this episode is reallyinspired by TikTok trends that
we've noticed where counselorsare debating what really belongs
in counseling sessions withrules that they break or rules
(01:27):
that they follow as a counselor.
And we're just gonna throw out atopic and each of us will decide
do we unpack it or lovingly putit back on the shelf?
I'm your host, Marissa Cargill.
And I'm Victoria Fraser.
Let's jump in.
Okay, so Tori, first on thelist, eating and session, unpack
(01:51):
or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
I feel like this is gonna be our catchphrase, but it
depends.
I think if you're having like afull fork and knife meal, that's
really different to like havingpretzels.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Correct.
Yeah, like it depends on so yes,to like unpack if it's a snack
or something, put it back ifit's like dining.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Yeah, I mean, especially because a lot of my
clients come straight fromschool or work, and so they're
hungry when they get here.
And sometimes they feel reallyawkward.
And so if they're eating, and ifeating is something that's
challenging for them, or justlike if they have anxiety and
they don't want to bedisruptive, or if we're working
(02:39):
on like people-pleasingbehaviors, I sometimes will eat
with them, and I keep likegoldfish or pretzels, and those
are I keep those for my clientstoo in my office, but I think it
helps kind of destigmatizeeating if that is something that
they have like some struggleswith, and I think also it just
(03:00):
like helps us feel morecomfortable, like that's
something we do to connect withother people.
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I say unpack too.
I think part of me it's aboutlike modeling if I'm saying like
we need to tend to ourselves ifsome like a goal that we're
working on is that like we needto do what's in our own best
self-interest at times.
(03:28):
It's like, well, then likesometimes you need a snack, and
like there are times where maybeI've just had a lot of
back-to-back appointments orsomething, and I'm like starving
to the point where I know I'mgonna like feel or hear my
stomach growl, whether or not myclients can, you know.
Thankfully, I'm in telhealth, sosometimes that's not as
noticeable through a computerscreen, but I usually will just
(03:50):
like acknowledge, like or askand and consider like what it is
that I'm eating.
Like I'm not sitting down andlike having like you know, a sub
sandwich here, but I might bringsome pretzels or you know, even
just like a cookie or something,like where I can pick it apart
(04:11):
piece by piece, like it's justsomething that I can make sure
that I'm nourishing my bodysomehow.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Yeah, definitely.
I am kind of imagining youeating a full like sub-way swap,
like sub.
I just feel like is this okay?
Like you're in a cartoon orsomething, like and you know
what?
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
Like, I feel like I could make the case where like
that's appropriate if like youwere working on like you said,
like if if people have likestruggle eating, and sometimes
like eating a meal, therecouldn't be a case where that's
appropriate, but just ingeneral, I think it's like okay,
I'm just acknowledging like I'ma human who has needs and like
it's important to show those,and like that it also maybe just
(04:57):
helps me stay focused.
Like, if I'm not if I'm starvingand my stomach's growling, then
I'm I might struggle being morepresent.
And so like I think Iacknowledge like hey, like
that's gonna help me do this,this work.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Not to like skip ahead, but Ithink that about like bathroom
breaks too, like either likesaying, like, hey, I'm so sorry,
I have to run to the restroom,or starting a couple minutes
late because I have to use therestroom.
I just know like if I'muncomfortable physically, I
won't be able to be there withthem as fully as I would like to
(05:38):
or need to sometimes.
And so I will I will pause ortake that couple minutes.
And I also think it's importantthat like clients know that
that's their time, and if theyneed to go to the bathroom, like
yeah, don't just like get up andrun out of the room or
something.
Like, I'll think something'swrong.
(05:59):
But if you need a break or ifyou need a second, like of
course, like let's take care ofourselves.
I don't, yeah.
I I like of course punctualityand professionalism is so
important, but I just yeah, Ithink it's we need to take care
of ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Yeah, everyone.
It's something like obviouslyyou want to be really
intentional with it, but thatlike it can actually be really
meaningful if it's disruptingsomething or like it's
uncomfortable, like because I Igenerally do try to ask, like I
want to make sure, like, hey,you know, I haven't had a chance
(06:38):
to have a break yet, and so likeis it okay if I eat this snack
while while we're workingtogether today?
But that like, you know, that itthat someone feels comfortable
with that.
Most of the time, you know,that's not something I'm gonna
be doing like in an intake.
Sure.
But with someone who I have arelationship with, I think it's
definitely unpacked.
So it's never simple, yes or no,but maybe uh about the why
(07:01):
behind it, it sounds like yeah.
Now, this next one to me is sointeresting and fascinating as a
counselor educator.
I feel like when I see some ofthese TikTok trends, I'm like,
have I taught that to people?
Have I said that?
And I feel like in some of themI haven't said that exact thing,
but I've said something likesimilar.
And so what I found reallyinteresting is that I saw
(07:24):
someone specifically that theywere talking about coffee tables
in therapy rooms, and so likefascinating again, as many many
of our listeners know, like I dofull-time telehealth now, so I'm
not doing any in-personservices, but I know like when I
would teach like counselingtechniques and things like that,
I would be really intentionalabout asking students not to put
(07:46):
like a table or a desk inbetween them and their client,
like if we were doing someexercises in the classrooms,
that I wanted them to be facingeach other without any like
physical barriers.
So I think coffee tables kind ofblur that line a little bit.
But like, what's your take?
(08:08):
Unpack, put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
I honestly, when I thought about that, like that
from from my master's programlike came into my head like
don't have anything in betweenbecause it can signal like
you're closed off or it can makeconnection hard.
But I started thinking aboutjust like the practicality of
having a coffee table in my roomwould be so nice.
Yeah, like I have a table to theside of the couch, but most of
(08:32):
my people sit in the middle ofthe couch, and so that coffee
table's or the the side table'sfar away.
And with my kids, like it wouldbe so nice to have a surface to
play Uno on, or color, or justfor my for my people who bring a
snack or a drink, like to havesomewhere to set their stuff
that's convenient, or like thenumber of times my people have
(08:53):
lost their phone in the couch isnot nothing, yeah.
And so I think like practically,as aside from like the ethical
implications of a coffee table,I just I was like, Oh, do I get
a coffee table?
I don't know that my office isbig enough for a coffee table,
like as it's arranged now, but Iwas kind of like into the idea
(09:15):
of having a coffee table.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Yeah, I lean more into the unpack over putting it
back because I think it's one ofthe things that I think when I
think about like physicalbarriers is like as a desk, it's
like cutting me off midway, likewhere it it does like to me
represent a little bit moreclear being closed off where a
(09:39):
coffee table is a lowerboundary.
So, like to me, also even aslike a physical barrier, it
doesn't feel so much as abarrier, like it's present, but
it's not like disruptive, right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
I think one of the other things I think about with
desk is that it makes it feellike a meeting, like they're in
trouble or they're like talkingto their boss, and I think the
coffee table is a a verydifferent vibe to that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah.
I I think like to your point,it's it's helpful and could be
like even offering thoseopportunities to connect
differently.
Because I also think of justlike take coffee table out of
the context of a therapy space,like just you know, like growing
up, like sitting around a coffeetable, like as a kid playing at
(10:27):
the coffee table, or you know,like the tables feel more like
gathering where like a deskisn't so much that.
And so I don't know, like maybethat's just my own perception,
but I'm I'm more open to thatone than like a desk, like in
between you and a client.
(10:48):
So definitely feel like thatcould be really helpful and
powerful in the physical spaces,which kind of makes me sad.
I'm not in physical spaces withclients anymore, but that's
okay.
You know, it affects ourfeelings, even if it's an in an
inanimate object, it can affectcomfort and maybe even like
create like a coziness thatwould feel like a little more
(11:11):
vagin otherwise.
What about this is one of myfavorites because I feel like my
stance on this has evolved, butsaying to a client I'm proud of
you or giving them some kind ofpraise.
Unpacked.
SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
I want to hear about this evolution.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
What what changed?
I think you know, like as a babycounselor, you're following
rules that that like maybe youhaven't unpacked, you know, pun
intended enough for yourself,where um I think it was always
something where like I've beencautious of saying
(11:57):
congratulations as an educator,I would always caution clients
or clients, students, from likecongratulating clients on
certain things.
Because while it might besomething that socially we
congratulate people for, like isit something like if that's what
they're there for, is itsomething that maybe they want
(12:17):
congratulations for?
Maybe they're feeling likeawful.
Like, you know, a lot of themock sessions and techniques
class, it would just be like thestress of grad school.
And so someone would say theywere in grad school, and then
their counselor wouldcongratulate them.
But if grad school is astressor, it's like, yes,
congratulations.
And maybe it was like thinkingtoo much about it, but I think
(12:37):
it's like sometimes we have topause and and wait to learn more
before we kind of give thatfeedback.
But the I'm proud of you, Ithink it was just more like
where the where it comes from isI think like there was this idea
that we want them to feelempowered so we shouldn't praise
(12:59):
them.
Like we should want them to likebe proud of themselves.
And I think like when theintention, it means well, right?
But my evolution is that like weespecially in like a relational
mindset, heal in relationships,and it's okay to tell someone
(13:20):
that you're proud of them, andit might be really powerful for
them to hear it and empower themto consider that like they are
proud of themselves.
So I will say that when I say itto clients, I also will usually
encourage that like I hope youlike see that too.
Like, I want you to be like feellike proud of that as well.
(13:43):
But like I think it's it'simportant for us to maybe hold
up that mirror, and it's okaybecause maybe that in
relationship with any humanbeing is really meaningful for
them.
Yeah.
But I think I was afraid ofsaying it before, like it was
wrong.
Like it was like, no, they needto, like, they need to say it,
or like the I'm not supposed tosay it because I should just say
(14:07):
I want you to be proud ofyourself, kind of thing.
Like, not you don't need me tosay it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Sometimes I'll even I'm also sometimes I will tell
clients I'm proud of them ifit's something they've been
working really hard on, or likethis has been a long time
coming, or I know they'refeeling positively about it.
And I and and I'll acknowledgeto clients sometimes, like, hey,
you know, technically we're kindof taught not to do this, but I
(14:34):
think it's really important foryou to hear this from someone
outside of yourself.
And I disclaimer don't know thatthis is true, but
hypothetically, when you build ahouse, you put external support
on it first before you build theinternal structure of the house.
Like, that's why they have thoselike diagonal planks of wood
outside of walls when you'rebuilding houses.
(14:55):
And I think that sometimes it'sour job to like be the external
support while they're buildingtheir internal support.
And so obviously, we have tomake sure that like we're being
mindful of how often we're doingthat and we're not centering how
we feel about it for them, but Ithink it's really important they
get like that external, like,good job.
(15:17):
Because we we I love sociallearning theory, and I think you
only know you're funny if peoplelaugh at your jokes.
And so, how are you meant toknow you're doing a good job or
like you're working towards whatcan sometimes be a really
abstract goal in counseling,unless the person you trust and
your expert on the subject tellsyou, like, yeah, this is going
well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
Yeah, I agree.
I think it's like one of thosesituations where we want to make
sure we're still likedecentering our opinion about
it, but at the same time, like Ithink there's part of us that
like we don't want to deny thehumanity of like, hey, it's okay
to appreciate or enjoy externalvalidation.
(15:58):
We don't want to live andbreathe by it, right?
Like, we can't only like livefor the applause.
But that's it's okay to enjoyit.
Like, that's okay to appreciateand enjoy like external
validation.
We want to build like thesupports so there's internal
validation too.
(16:18):
But yeah, I I wholeheartedly amwith you on that.
I think what's helpful is likesometimes we need to learn like
the stricter rules so that wecan experiment with like okay,
now it's okay for me to tellsomeone this, and it's important
that I have a relationship withthem, and it's important that I
know that this isn't going thatthey're going to be seeking my
(16:40):
approval and stuff like that.
That we have to have some somefoundation before maybe we can
do that, but it's important.
So, you know, maybe it's alsolike you worked really hard for
that, and I want to likeacknowledge that.
Like, I want to acknowledge yourprogress.
Another one, and I feel likeTori, you might have a a good
(17:01):
take on this, especially becauseyou work primarily with like
with younger people, and so Ithink it's a little different.
And honestly, I don't have muchof an opinion because of the
telehealth stuff.
But what about hugs in therapy?
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah, this is uh yeah, I am not I'm a very huggy
person, like at like as a humanbeing, but when I'm in my office
and like when I'm working, I'mnot a super big like hug for
clients kind of person, justbecause especially with the
littles, like I think thoseboundaries are really important,
(17:36):
and like as much as I enjoy myclients, I'm not their friend,
and I think that that issomething that's really hard
because with the kids you dowant to make such a strong bond
and you want to have things incommon and and make sure that
they know like you're on theirlevel and you're trying to be as
egalitarian as possible, but atthe same time, like that can get
(17:59):
muddled.
There, I can count, I think, onmy hand of the number of times
I've hugged a client and I'venever initiated a hug either.
It's usually been someone underseven who's having a really big
like emotional moment andthey're feeling really scared,
and they just kind of go for it.
And I think it would at thatpoint it would be so damaging
(18:22):
for me not to respond to thembecause they are being so
vulnerable.
And I think that that is soinnate.
I think when you're older, wecan talk about ways to do some
of that self-soothing, but Ithink that's really high level
for a little brain, and that'shard.
I do keep I keep a really bigsquish mallow in my office that
(18:45):
looks like a dumpling.
And his name is Timothy, andTimothy is kind of my hug proxy.
Like I'll have them hug Timothy.
The only other time I've huggeda client is sometimes at
termination sessions.
Clients will ask for a hug, andI think that like that to me is
okay.
(19:06):
That's my other kind ofexception.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Yeah.
With telehealth, I obviouslycan't hug anyone, so that makes
the decision for me pretty easy.
But like, yeah, in former rolesand things like that,
termination I think was probablythe most common reason I might
like give someone a hug.
But generally speaking, it wasmore like they wanted, you know,
can I give you a hug?
And it's like, yeah, like butwasn't maybe like a regular
(19:32):
occurrence within the thecounseling relationship.
And I breaking one of the otherrules.
I think like when I worked in acollege setting was hard as like
the the physical space was thatoftentimes there was a desk.
And so there was like a physicalbarrier sometimes within that.
That was like literally not thephysical space to have a
(19:56):
separate um situation where Icould go move to a chair or put
them on a couch where we weremore in like a very sterile type
setting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I tried to make it as cozy as Icould within those parameters
for what it's worth.
And but you know, that that kindof I think prevented even like
(20:16):
some of the other situationswhere a hug might come up.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah.
I think it it was really hardfor me at first to say no.
And then I talked with like mysupervisor and a couple of my
friends in my program, and wetalked about how it's good to
model those boundaries if youare saying no and saying and and
explaining it to them like thisis why it's not you know
(20:40):
boundaries.
Practice really to do hugs andproviding them alternatives, but
I think it's so important toknow what you're comfortable
with as a clinician.
And like maybe there areclinicians who feel really
comfortable with that, and thatthat's something that they they
they really think is helpful.
And I I don't think it's like ahard no, especially with like if
(21:00):
we think about intersectingidentities and cultural norms
and things like that.
Like some cultures just are morelike touch focused, and that's
more casual.
And so I think there's alwayslike space for that, yeah, too.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
So we put some calls out on social media, and some
other folks like maybe sharedsome comments of some of the
other maybe hot takes or rulesthat might be more commonly
broken or like adjusted,depending on like the the
context.
So a couple more, and we cankind of go rapid rapid fire with
(21:37):
like unpack or put it back and aquick explanation, but swearing
in sessions, unpack or put itback.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Unpack a million percent.
I think it makes it likehumanizes you so much, it makes
clients feel comfortableexpressing themselves however
they want.
I think there's a differencebetween them swearing to you
versus at you.
Like I don't want anyone to callme a swear word, but if you need
to swear to express yourself, Ithink that's fine.
(22:06):
I think it's fine.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
And I like I waffle, I think on my stance with this,
but like yes, typically unpack.
I used to think like, oh I'llwait until they swear, and then
I will like let them know, like,oh, I swear too, and like that's
fine, and like now we can sweartogether.
But I think sometimes, andobviously I'm not trying to
(22:28):
swear at my clients either, likein in the opposite direction,
but that like if they'veexpressed something and it kind
of is almost like, I feel like,you know, I can sense that like
this is something that feels,you know, like I want to let it
out.
I might be like, you know, let'sdrop a WTH or or whatever to let
(22:51):
them know like it's okay here.
It's and like if that's helpful,because a lot of people will
apologize when they swear.
And and I mean, I think that'sto the degree you feel
comfortable as a counselor too,but like to me it's it's their
safe space, and so like theyshould feel comfortable doing
that.
I don't want to offend anyone.
So try to be really conscious ofof when and where and how it
comes up, but like if I'mgetting the sense that it it's
(23:15):
fine, I might model like, hey,yeah, you can be as comfortable
as you want.
Like, we don't have to put onthat, like that mask of like,
you know, not using languagethat we would typically use
outside of session.
So generally speaking, unpack,I'm sure there are some some
exceptions.
How about like beyond hugs, likecomforting clients?
(23:37):
And I know that we talked a lotabout this in like the first
episode of Let's Unpack Thatwith the Tissue Issue, but just
like comforting clients ingeneral, whether that be like
with a word, a tissue, a hug, Idon't know.
Are there some strong feelings?
Unpack.
Yeah, same.
Yeah.
I think like when we thinkconsider like that we are
(23:58):
modeling relationships forpeople, that it's helpful to
offer them like the humanity wewould want them to feel to maybe
get more comfortable acceptingor to show them that like the
people can offer that, even ifthat's not something that
they're familiar with, that thatthat's helpful.
This one feels very, I don'tknow, like pop culture-y, which
(24:23):
I appreciate as someone who justloves media, but saying like
same to clients, like if if yourelate and you're like, yeah, I
get that, you know, instead ofhow do you feel?
Like as a means of likeself-disclosure.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yeah, I think I think just I'm I use so much
like feminist theory in how Iapproach counselors, and I think
self-disclosure can be such avaluable tool as long as we're,
you know, centering the clientand considering why that
self-disclosure would be usefulin the moment.
I think it's so helpful.
(25:00):
Like, especially when I have Ihave like a case subsection on
my caseload of adults with OCD,especially ones who it was
undiagnosed for quite a longtime, and self-disclosure with
them are like, yeah, I've had anintrusive thought that sounds
like that, can be sorevolutionary because it it's
such a like the call is comingfrom inside the house.
(25:22):
Yeah.
And so I think it can it itmakes it less scary.
I think it humanizes it.
I think it can provideopportunities for laughter and
yeah, big big fan within reason.
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's one of those Isaw some someone on TikTok and I
wish I could remember.
I think her name was Lauren.
If I can tag her, I'll tag herin our show notes.
But she was saying, like talkingabout how she was grateful that
(25:54):
she learned the strict rulesahead of time, right?
Like, hey, we're not supposed toself-disclose unless it's really
to the client's benefit.
But that like now is morecomfortable with self-disclosure
because like yes, I can disclosemore and it can still only to be
to the benefit of the client.
Like it was a skill that's like,hey, use sparingly, use
(26:15):
sparingly, because babycounselors maybe need like some
strict rules so that they know,like, and then they can reflect
and be really intentional andthoughtful when they begin to
use them.
And when she was speaking aboutit, she was talking about like
comparing it to like learningmath or something, and it was a
really good comparison that shemade.
I'm not gonna but m math is nono, thank you.
(26:38):
I was thinking about like andthis is maybe really a bad
comparison, but like when you'relearning how to drive, right?
And you learn all the rules andit's 10 and 2, and you like
really try to like do all ofthese things, and like I'm not
gonna say I don't hold my handsat 10 and 2 ever, but like I'm a
little bit more relaxed at thewheel now.
(26:59):
And I felt like that was like areally good way to think about
how self-disclosure, and maybesome of these other roles even
have evolved over time, like inmy own professional like
journey.
That like, okay, I'm still doingit for the same reason and I'm
still kind of staying within theright parameters, but I'm able
to use this skill morefrequently, but like to humanize
(27:21):
myself, like and make that likea more equitable relationship,
like that the power differentialis less.
I I really like that one.
I know I said let's be briefwith these, and then I go into a
whole dissertation on that one.
But all right, next oneaccepting gifts from clients,
unpack or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
I think cautiously unpack.
I think obviously let's not betaking Lamborghinis, but if it's
a cookie or a beverage orsomething, like I think that's
really different.
And like with my kids, sometimesthey'll bring me like a flower
they picked or like a drawingthey made me, or like I have I
(28:05):
have a I have a kid, she's sosweet, she for her birthday she
wants to give other peoplepresents, and so like for her
birthday every year she has awhite elephant gift exchange
with her friends, and so likethat's something that's really
important to her.
And I I always think about likeis this gonna hurt their
feelings?
Is this gonna damage theirrelationship?
(28:26):
And also, like, I think I thisis just natural to me would
always go, Oh, you didn't haveto do that, are you sure?
And like giving, I don't thinkthey're ever, I don't I don't
know, I've never had anyone belike, oh, actually never mind,
but I think giving them thatconsideration and that
opportunity to reflect is and Ialso think like I break the
opposite rule a little bit.
(28:47):
If I like I give my kidsstickers at the end of their
session just because it's theyhad to focus for a long time, or
they like to take them home andshow their their parents or
their siblings, or some of themhave little like sticker
passports that we use to writedown something, like we learned
something new that day, they'llpick a sticker that goes with
(29:08):
the the skill.
And so I kind of break theopposite.
I mean, I'm not giving away likeyeah, you know, I'm not bribing
people with anything, but justlike to help them remember or
commemorate, I I think that'slovely, or I'll bring like
someone a sucker on theirbirthday or something like that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:23):
Yeah.
I I think same, like, yeah, wewant to like stay within our
ethical confines and andwhatnot.
But like part of that is wouldit do damage to the relationship
if I decline, like, right?
And so given if it's nominal,like we probably benefit from
like accepting that because itwas done with like good
(29:45):
intention and like meaningbehind it.
And so a lot of times, you know,it would jeopardize the
stability of the relationship ifwe weren't willing, because that
could be really hurtful.
You know, obviously if it'ssomething that's a little bit
beyond nominal, then we have to,you know, maybe have a
conversation with them about whyit's not appropriate to accept.
(30:08):
But I think in most cases, youknow, they're people kind of
gather like that they're notgonna be bringing us, you know,
sports cars or, you know,high-end anything.
It's more from the heart, andthat's the the important part
when we consider whether weaccept it.
And I think to your point,giving gifts at times is is
(30:31):
meaningful and it still has tostay within those confines of
like being nominal, but thatthat that's sort of it kind of
harkens to the I'm proud of youthing that we want people to be
self be celebrated, feelcelebrated.
Blank slate therapists unpack orput it back?
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Put put it unpack the farthest.
Like I think for me, if when I'ma client, if I say something
that was really hurtful orsomething really scary that
happened to me, and I getnothing in return, I feel like
(31:13):
I'm being dramatic.
Yeah.
And I also think like some of myclients have have people who
don't understand in their life,and they get that blank slight
response at home.
And I think it's soinvalidating, and I think like
obviously I'm very humanistic,and like I don't think I can
(31:36):
show up as anyone but who I am,and I have a face journey when
someone tells me they dropped apiece of pizza on the ground.
I look like I've discovered ahorrific accident, and so I
think when I started, I tried tobe very blank sleep, and it felt
so inauthentic to me.
And I was thinking so much aboutwhat my face was doing and not
(31:56):
what was happening, and I'venever had a client say anything
to me about my face other thanthank you, thank you, because
that's how I felt.
SPEAKER_00 (32:06):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, I'm gonna hit you withthe favorite answers, but it
depends because I think certainpeople respond well to like
certain things, and so I thinkfor me, I I am an expressive
person, but sometimes I might bea slower responder when I'm with
clients because I am likewaiting to hear all of it before
(32:27):
I can figure out what myreaction is, right?
Yeah, because I don't want to beso expressive where they like
they it shuts them down, and soI think sometimes I like do hold
back a little bit, not because Idon't want to give an authentic
response, like I my eye, youknow, like I'm I might like keep
part of my face a little bitmore blank, and but my eyes
(32:50):
might be like wide, you know,like okay, I'm still listening,
like keep going, but I don'twant to have like the rest of my
reaction until I have heard whatelse they have to say.
So I wouldn't say blank, but I II try to at least kind of be
conscious of it when I can,which again in telehealth maybe
(33:10):
is a weirder thing to be kind ofattuned to because I see my
face, you know.
Yeah, I still try to make it thesmaller square, right?
But like I can still tell, like,what kind of face am I giving
this person in response to whatthey're saying?
So I'm I guess I'm likemonitoring myself a little bit
more, but not because I don'twant an authentic reaction, but
(33:32):
because I think like sometimes Ijust don't want to disrupt the
flow in the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
No, that's a good point.
I think my reactions are sosilent and I'm nodding like
while I'm doing them, and sothere's always this signal of
like keep talking.
Yes.
Like, you know, I think if itwas if if it became intrusive
where like a client would stoptheir story or you know, like
like if it became disruptive,obviously that's different, but
(34:01):
yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_00 (34:03):
Yeah, and you know, like I think like sometimes
there could be cause forinterrupting it to be like,
wait, hold on a second, you'retelling me this happened?
Like, I I get it, and I thinklike everything is nuanced, but
I would say like not blank, butnot maybe like the fullest
expression, depending on thecircumstance.
(34:27):
Okay, two more.
Um, actually, no, a few more.
I can't count.
This one, I felt like I had astrong stance as a counselor
educator, but taking notes insession, unpack or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (34:41):
I halfway.
I take notes with my grown-upsbecause I'm a computer and
session person, which I wasnever when I was in my master's
program in like my first year ofpractice.
But just concurrent note-takingreally saves lives.
And so, like, for me, just Ihave when I go home, I try to be
(35:04):
really strict with myself aboutnot taking work out and thinking
about clients, and so but withmy kids, like if we're in the
sand tray or we're playingBarbie or you know, we're like
that, obviously I can't takenotes.
I'll like scratch notes after,but I really think it depends.
Or if I I've had people beforewho who who worry a lot about
(35:25):
what I'm writing, and so forthose clients I don't take
notes, so I think it reallydepends, but most of the time if
I can get away with it, and Iwill say I put it's it's I I put
my computer to the side and it'son a pillow, so it feels very
cash when I do it.
But yeah, that's where I'm at.
What about you?
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
I have to.
So I would say unpack.
I think it's important to likeassess their comfort to your
point of like some clients mightnot be comfortable with it.
It's so meaningful.
Like, I I do try to make sureI'm not like that's not my
focus, but especially like I ifI wanna they just said something
really meaningful and I don'twant to forget that they said
(36:09):
that, like I need to jot thatdown.
Or if they're in the middle ofsomething and I have a thought
about like, well, is this apattern based off of stuff we've
talked about in other sessions?
I might write down like whatthat thought was so I don't lose
it if I need to come back to it,but like I don't try to be like
writing throughout, but likealso, you know, with like if I'm
(36:30):
going into like EMDR sessionswith the client, like it's
critical that I am taking notes,like because I'm kind of
watching like how they'readapting, and so it can be
really meaningful andpurposeful, and so like I would
say like for me it's a must,although it can be in different
like intensity depending on theclient.
(36:52):
Dress code, like do you feellike they're I guess this is
broad, so unpack or put it back.
I mean, like I think as I wascoming up into the profession,
it was more at least like abusiness casual or something to
that effect where I think thatis not my stance anymore.
(37:12):
But what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (37:17):
I am a casual girl.
I I'll wear like a sweater andjeans.
I mean, I'm not showing up incookie monster pajama pants or
like ripped jeans or something,but I think again it goes back
to that like I am a human beingand this is how I'm most
comfortable.
And also it can be intimidatingfor people to come to to therapy
(37:42):
and to to to meet with acounselor, and so I think if I
can remove that barrier to entryby looking like a normal lady,
then I'm very happy to do thatbecause it's also more
comfortable for me.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah, that was part of my evolution into the
profession, like just dresscode, but also like some of
these things where we talk aboutthe power differential and like
normalizing things.
I remember thinking like, oh,I'm never gonna take soda into a
(38:17):
session because like I know Ishouldn't be addicted to Diet
Coke, so like I'm not gonna takethe Diet Coke in because like
that's not modeling goodbehavior.
You could argue, yeah, likemaybe you wanna like take that
stance, sure, but I also like wecan humanize that.
Like, I I'm not a going exampleof a perfect human.
(38:37):
I am just a human.
There is no such thing as aperfect human.
And so I think like I havedifferent views on it now than I
I did, and that comes to likebeverages and session, dress
code as well.
So yeah, like I think it's alsoreally important that clients
feel like we're like them, andin order to do that, me wearing
(39:02):
like a power suit maybe isn'tthe vibe, especially in
telehealth.
Um my gosh, yeah.
What about walking with clients,like doing moving sessions?
That's the last one I have foryou.
Unpack or put it back.
SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
I don't really go for walks, but I will play
volleyball and soccer, and Ilove to go outside with my
clients with the knowledge thatlike we can't ensure the most
privacy.
Yeah.
Or, you know, but I love it.
I think it helps clients get outof their heads.
I think it helps me regulatewhen it lines up with that.
(39:42):
Like, yeah, I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:44):
Yeah, I agree.
I think like if it's somethingthat it's intentional and often,
like, yeah, you can build thatinto informed consent and like
some of your paperwork and whathave you, that like obviously if
we're gonna meet at a park andgo for a walk, like that, we
can't like ensure all of this,but that that can be really
helpful.
I you know, I want clients tofeel empowered to do what they
(40:06):
need to do in a session.
And if that means that you aremaking a crock pot meal while
we're in session, because that'shelpful to you, like I'm not
this is your session, like yeah,I want you to be able to focus.
No, you shouldn't be drivingwhile we're meeting, but like if
it's also something that, like,hey, this takes a load off for
(40:26):
you, like, cool.
And if and I think beingoutdoors and moving is something
that we know is really good forour own health, mental health,
and well being, then whywouldn't we?
Do that with clients and modelthat or engage in that.
So any that you feel like weneed to unpack or put back that
(40:50):
we haven't.
I think so.
I think that was such a goodlist.
Yeah.
And we want you to think ofothers.
Certainly we can play this game,you know, again and want to hear
from you.
So feel free to drop us a linein the show notes or reach out
to us on social media.
This was another edition ofLet's Unpack That, where we
remember that in counselingcontext is everything.
(41:12):
Let us know what you want tounpack next.
Thanks for joining us for Let'sUnpack That, brought to you by
Ohio Counseling Conversationsand the Ohio Counseling
Association.
If it sparks something for you,share it with a colleague or
drop us a line.
We'd love to keep theconversation going.
Thanks for listening.
And until next time, weencourage you to keep unpacking
(41:35):
the big stuff one conversationat a time.
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