February 19, 2024 • 26 mins
How can incarcerated parents maintain healthy relationships with their children? In this episode of the OK State of Mind podcast, Lucie Doll, Program Director of FCS's Parenting in Jail Program, answers this very question. Lucie shares with us how her program helps incarcerated parents obtain essential parenting skills and provides comprehensive support for parents, children, and families through evidence-based parenting classes, in-jail contact visits with minor children and caregiver support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:00):
Hello and welcome to OK State of Mind, a podcast by
(00:02):
Family Children's Services,based in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
This podcast seeks to satisfyinquisitive minds eager to delve
into the realm of mental healthand overall well being.
Join us on a journey to gaininsights into the intricacies of
the human psyche Drawinginspiration from stories of
resilience and hope.
Rachel (00:23):
Together we'll unravel the fascinating science, the
invisibilia that underpins ourbehaviors, shedding light on the
whys behind our behavior andoverall mental health.
Our goal is to empower, educate,and inspire you with actionable
insights that you canimmediately use in pursuing your
own mental wellbeing.
Chris (00:41):
In our last episode, we spoke with Family Children's
Services' new CEO, AdamAndreassen.
During this episode, Andreassendiscussed his journey within
behavioral health care andshared insights into the
personal motivations that fuelhis dedication to transforming
the lives of those in need.
He also discussed how FCS, aCertified Community Behavioral
(01:05):
Health Center, goes beyondmental health care, integrating
physical health coordination androbust social services.
This episode, as well as allother episodes of OK State of
Mind, are available atokstateofmind.com, as well as
other major podcast platforms.
Today we're speaking with LucieDoll, Director of the Parenting
(01:26):
in Jail Program at FCS.
Lucie supports a team ofeducators who serve families
impacted by the criminal legalsystem through evidence-based
parenting classes, in jailcontact visits with minor
children and their loved ones,and- caregiver support.
Lucie serves on the board ofdirectors for the Oklahoma
Partnership for School ReadinessFoundation and she holds a
(01:46):
bachelor of science in businessadministration and a minor in
public policy from theUniversity of North Carolina
Chapel Hill.
We're happy to have you with ushere today, Lucie.
Today we're interested in a highlevel overview of your program.
Can you take a minute todescribe Parenting in Jail for
anybody who might not befamiliar with it?
Lucie (02:07):
Absolutely.
I'm excited to be here.
The Parenting in Jail program isa program of Family Children's
Services.
We're a psychoeducationalprogram and we're currently
operating in six county jails inTulsa and surrounding counties.
We go into those jails and weteach parenting education 2 to 3
times a week.
We often have the opportunity tofacilitate in person contact
(02:30):
visits.
with kiddos and theirincarcerated loved ones and then
we support the caregivers thatare actively caring for children
in the community make sure theyhave the support and the
resources that they need as theygo through this this time in
their lives
Rachel (02:43):
How do you determine who will be a part of the Parenting
in Jail services in the program?
Lucie (02:49):
So our program is 100 percent voluntary.
We put up sign up sheets in thepod or we have opportunities if
you are jails for them to signup on a kiosk, but regardless,
either way, it's something thatwe want folks to want to be
there.
And so it's something they optinto.
We may get a referral from jailstaff or from child welfare
workers, but it's something thatthey opt into and want to
(03:11):
participate in.
We will take any Individual inour jails that has a
relationship with with minorchildren.
So we really prioritize ourparents, but we also see a lot
of benefit to grandma, grandpaand uncle, older sister,
brother, maybe even a parentalfigure that isn't the biological
(03:32):
parent.
It's our belief and our approachthat the child, the children are
community will be stronger ifevery adult in their life has
the skills that they could betaught through this program and
also that every family lookspretty different.
And so we don't put reallyrestrictive criteria there on
that relationship, and then wedo have a few charges that would
make someone ineligible.
And those are your more violentcharges or egregious charges
(03:55):
towards a child.
And so there's a few that wewould staff or or rule out.
But other than that, it's justmaking sure that jail staff
approves.
They have discretion, of course,because it takes place in their
facility, and it's considered aprivilege at our jails.
So, we work closely with jailstaff to make sure that they're
on good behavior to participate.
Chris (04:10):
Hmm.
Is it open to women and men, oris it women only?
Lucie (04:13):
It is.
It was started out as womenonly.
We've been doing this work since2015, and it started just
serving women in the TulsaCounty Jail.
David L.
Moss.
And we had the opportunity toexpand as a result of getting
funding through the state ofOklahoma through the Department
of Human Services.
We got two TANF contracts andthat allowed us to expand
geographically and then also ledto us serving men in partnership
(04:35):
with philanthropic partners.
So we now serve men.
We've been doing that about thelast year and a half and we've
seen a lot of success.
We had, we actually had a lot ofrequests from our law
enforcement partners and tollset what, you know, can we do
this for the men and the dads?
And so when we got theopportunity through increased
funding streams Then we werereally excited to do it and it's
been pretty wonderful to watchit unfold.
Rachel (04:57):
That's great Can you kind of walk us through what the
program looks like forparticipants?
Is it the same for everyone ordo you tailor it to certain
needs?
Lucie (05:06):
Probably the best answer to that is both.
Everyone's getting the samecurriculum.
We use an evidence basedcurriculum.
It's called Parenting InsideOut.
And that curriculum is thehighest rated evidence based
curriculum that's specificallygeared towards individuals with
criminal legal systeminvolvement.
So there's actually specificallya jail based version of the
curriculum.
And that is taught with theunderstanding that you're not
(05:30):
going home to practice theseskills tonight in your living
room with your kiddos, but let'stalk about how you can put them
into action during your nextvideo visit or during your next
in person visit or maybe justyour next phone call with your
kids.
It also focuses a lot on the,the caregiver relationship and
understanding how important andcrucial that is to effective
parenting given the situationthe family's currently in.
(05:50):
So everyone is receiving thatcurriculum.
It's 12 lessons in the jail andthat is happening in a group
setting.
So there's peer learning,there's role play with one
another, there's that peeradvice and, and really working
through problem solvingsituations together.
But before anyone's enrolled inthe class, we do a one on one
screening with our educator andindividual, and that's when
(06:11):
we're getting a betterunderstanding of their unique
situation.
So, where are your kids rightnow?
Do you have contact with them?
What does that look like?
What's your relationship withyour caregiver?
Is your caregiver your Motherand their grandmother.
Is it your ex partner reallyunderstanding what are those
dynamics and then understandingwhat led them to their time in
jail currently?
Whether they're engaged with anyprograms, what are their what
(06:33):
they think will happen to themnext?
And then really getting abaseline of their parenting
skills using a pre survey.
So we really can tailor ourapproach to outreaching their
family and their children basedon all that information.
So they're learning the sameskills because we want to stay
in the evidence basedcurriculum.
But how our educators work withtheir family is very much
(06:55):
tailored to each situation, andit looks so different for every
family.
Success looks different forevery family.
Unfortunately, every parentcan't have contact with their
children.
But many can, and maybe thereare barriers that we could help
to remove.
And so that's when we reallywork to, to tailor based on
their goals and their currentsituation.
In addition to those classes,it's 12 lessons.
(07:15):
That curriculum is reallyengaging, really tailored to
their unique situation.
So, when they're talking aboutthings like effective speaking
or effective listening, they'reactually going through role
plays.
And we've actually hadparticipants come back and say,
this works.
My phone call lasted more than30 seconds.
Instead of saying, put my kidson the phone.
I asked my mom how she wasdoing.
(07:36):
I thanked her for what she'sdoing.
And then I listened to herresponse before I answered.
And we see these incrementalwins.
There's obviously a lot that canhappen in folks' families before
we, before we see them.
There's no silver bullet, but wesee it.
Often very quick wins in mendingthose relationships just by some
really foundational skills, likehow do you effectively listen,
(07:59):
effectively, speak in arespectful way that can really
help acknowledge the work thatyour family member is doing for
you, but also to get your needsacross.
If, if you wanna know how yourkiddo's doing, or if you wanna
have input on that child's life,like if that's your goal, here's
some of the steps that, that youneed to take.
So on that note, in addition tothe classes.
(08:19):
Three of our jails, we haveweekly enhanced contact
visitation, so every week.
Anyone is eligible if they'vetaken at least half of the
curriculum, so six lessons.
We'll outreach caregivers anddetermine if it's in the best
interest of the children to seetheir parent.
And we'll work with caregiversand of course DHS Child Welfare
(08:39):
if they're a party to the familysituation.
And if it is in the bestinterest, then we can facilitate
contact visits.
And those are so different thanwhat is typically available to a
child with an incarceratedparent in our jails.
In most cases, there's noopportunity for them to really
see their parent without ourprogram.
In some, they might be able tosit in a visitation room that
(09:00):
you might envision with theglass or plexiglass divider.
But how hard is that for atoddler to not understand why
they can't touch their mom thatused to care for them?
It's hard for an adult to seetheir loved one behind glass.
But those non contact visits arereally challenging for our
littles.
So our visits look totallydifferent.
We roll out bright colorfulrugs.
We bring in toys and books andgames and parents really get to
(09:23):
practice the skills they learnin class and kids get to really
interact as naturally aspossible given the setting with
their parents.
We have a few jails that we cando it on a case by case basis.
And then if we can't do inperson visits, either because of
the jails restrictions orbecause the family can't make it
there, then we can alsofacilitate free video visits,
(09:44):
which are a really wonderfulaspect because there's no charge
to either party.
We can do those on a recurringbasis.
And we have techniques even tomake video visits more
meaningful, even for yourlittles.
We have tips on, like,caregivers that are can be the
hands of the the participant.
So maybe mom's going to ticklethe one year old through the
screen and caregiver is going toactually tickle the kiddo.
(10:05):
And we have these techniquesthat, that actually can make a
difference.
Or maybe we send a book to theirhouse, that's the same that mom
is reading.
And so they're reading that booktogether.
So there are ways that we can,can try to really optimize those
experiences for, for kiddos.
And then the third piece is thecaregiver support.
So I just want to touch on thatbecause it's so important.
About half our caregivers arethe other parent, and then about
(10:28):
a quarter are grandparents, andthen that remaining quarter
looks like all sorts ofdifferent relationships.
And so we reach out tocaregivers too, and we just ask
what they need.
They're often informal kinship,so they've just taken the kiddos
at the time of arrest maybe, ormaybe they've had the kiddos off
and on for a long time.
And so they may not be receivingany formal support.
Or it's the other parent andthey've lost a primary caregiver
(10:51):
and financial provider and theirlife has changed very
dramatically.
And so we just look to link themto resources and services.
So we refer them to the variousfamily and children's programs.
We can do school supplies andholiday gifts and things of that
nature.
Chris (11:06):
That's awesome.
So, it's really more than just aparent and a child.
It's a parent, child, and theirentire, caring community.
How long has Parenting in Jailbeen in place now?
Lucie (11:19):
Began in 2015.
And that was again when we werein on that smaller scale.
So working with women and justthe Tulsa County Jail, David L.
Moss.
Chris (11:27):
Okay.
Lucie (11:28):
The broader expansions been since essentially early
2022.
Chris (11:32):
Any other changes or evolutions in the program that
you've observed or that you'reaware of since 2016?
Lucie (11:40):
The biggest ones are that we've expanded to serve men.
We've expanded into some of oursurrounding counties.
The resources there lookdifferent.
We get to know those communitiesso that we can really plug folks
into what is available nearthem.
So that's been a huge change.
And then we've reallystrengthened the caregiver
support arm more over the years.
And that was really credit to mycolleague Alicia, who really saw
(12:01):
that need, that they were notreceiving support.
And she realized that when shewas calling them to set up
visits.
And she'd hear that they, theydidn't know if they were going
to be able to put food on thetable.
Or they were just reallyoverwhelmed with, The impact of
incarceration.
They didn't know how to talk totheir little in a way that was,
they wanted to protect them, butthey wanted to, they couldn't
even figure out how to broachthe topic.
(12:23):
Mm-Hmm.
And so that's where this, thisarm of caregiver support has
really strengthened over theyears, and we continue to work
to build that out.
Rachel (12:30):
What can a person expect when starting the parenting in
jail program?
Lucie (12:36):
We have a whole community agreement.
And that is a lot of mutualrespect.
We don't force anyone to share,but I think what we see is a lot
of introspection andvulnerability once they get in.
But really, it's just anopenness and we ask that they
come really ready to engage.
We find that they open up reallyquickly and really enjoy that
but really making sure that ifthey sign up, that they continue
(12:59):
to show up and they show up andready to, to really take part in
the curriculum and support theirpeers through this process.
But then more logisticallythey're, they're signing up for
classes two to three times aweek over the course of four to
six weeks and then they'repotentially, they're signing up
for a family liaison that'sgoing to help them to pursue
whatever goals they have as itpertains to contacting their
(13:21):
children.
Chris (13:23):
Any participants ever expressed fear or uneasiness
about starting the program?
Lucie (13:29):
Yes, I think it takes a while to build trust, right?
I mean, we're asking how youparent your child, and that can
feel awfully vulnerable,especially knowing where we're
meeting them when we have theseconversations.
And so I think there's certainlyfear around how that
vulnerability might be usedagainst them or their family,
knowing that they've come intocontact with a lot of systems by
(13:49):
the time we meet with them.
So I certainly think there's alittle bit of that.
I think when I see the most fearis when our, it's not around us,
but it's when our participantshaven't seen their kiddos in a
long time.
We have had visits where theyhaven't seen each other in
months.
We've had visits where theyhaven't seen each other in over
a year.
We've had dads that have mettheir babies for the first time
(14:11):
in our visits.
So I think the most emotion isanticipation.
I've had grown men shaking readyto hold that infant.
See a lot of fear aroundchanging that first diaper and,
you know, there's often a lot ofshame that comes with that.
And so I think for us, it'shelping them to.
process that and of course, takeaccountability, but move past it
(14:32):
so that they can look forward toall the parenting opportunities
that they and their childrenhave in the future.
And so it's really helping themto feel empowered and have some
hope.
But I think to me, yeah, themost fear is sometimes those
visits where you haven't huggedyour child in two years and, and
And we had one like that, and,and she was the primary
caregiver before that happened.
(14:53):
So you think about just thetremendous negative impact on,
on everyone involved.
Rachel (15:01):
Can you share a success story from the Parenting in Jail
program?
I'm sure you have many.
Lucie (15:05):
We do, and we have hard ones too.
I mean, just to be frank we haveso many different levels of
success.
So we have a beautiful successstory is that we had,
unfortunately, a mother who wentthrough the, the process of
giving birth while incarceratedin jail and then having that
baby taken, of course, becausehe couldn't return to the jail.
(15:26):
Awfully traumatic for allinvolved and came with a lot of
hopelessness, I think, and a lotof resentment and anger that
that was the situation, but thatquickly turned to, What do I
need to do to get on track here?
And so our program was there soshe could enroll in the program
and she could take parentingclasses and she could progress
on her individualized serviceplan that DHS child welfare had
(15:49):
assigned to her in order to worktowards that reunification,
which isn't always the case of aparent's incarcerated.
You know, we hear from workersthat it's often don't have much
to update on because mom's injail or dad's in jail.
So with our program, she wasable to complete a full box on
her list for her individualizedservice plan.
She completed evidence basedparenting and then she was able
(16:11):
to visit with her baby girlweekly and child welfare came to
observe how positively they'reengaging that they were building
that bond.
And so when she was released, wehave colleagues from our reentry
team that helped to identifytransitional housing upon her
release and she already had sucha strong foundation and she was
so hopeful.
Yeah.
By the time she stepped footoutside of that jail and she was
(16:31):
able to enter trialreunification a matter of weeks
after release, which is just notyour norm when you're leaving
incarceration.
And so I think that is a reallybeautiful success story.
That's like maximizingeverything our program could do.
That's not what happens toeveryone by any means.
We have folks that might not bereleased to the community in the
(16:52):
short term.
A really beautiful success I'veseen recently is we have a dad
who has a teenager who's reallystruggling with His
incarceration.
She and so sometimes she doesn'tfeel like getting on the phone
She is just really struggling towork through that as you can
imagine and he was asking aboutways that he could help her
process And how could theyfigure this out?
(17:12):
And so we ordered books forthem.
They're published by kids whoseparents are incarcerated.
It's a compilation of prose andpoems about the experience.
So they're doing, they are nowusing their weekly visits for a
book club and they're talkingabout the poems that they're
reading and she's talking abouthow it relates to her
experience.
And dad is reading these poemsand it's beautiful.
(17:34):
I mean, he's doing anything hecan to meet her where she is.
And again, moving past that.
That shame.
You can actively parent here andhere.
Here's some tools and how can wesupport you?
So success can look reallydifferent.
But I think they're, it's allincredibly meaningful.
Children love their parents andthe parents love their children
and just helping them to connectin a meaningful and effective
(17:55):
way.
It's of course safe and healthyfor all.
Chris (17:58):
Yeah.
What sort of feedback are yougetting on this?
I can imagine you're gettingvery positive feedback from
participants but how are peopleresponding to this outside of
the program?
Lucie (18:10):
Well, I think about participant feedback this week.
I heard that we had a graduationand we had a participant say,
this is the first thing I'veever completed.
I was holding a certificate andI did it for my kids.
So I think that is prettyrewarding feedback for our team
and we hope the first of manythings they complete.
But then from our jail partners,we couldn't do this work without
(18:33):
the jail staff letting us in thedoor.
And we see really positivefeedback from them.
In addition to the outcomes andthe goals that our program
prioritizes.
We see a lot of tangentialbenefits to just general
increase in pro social behavior.
Those communication skills theyuse with caregiver.
They also work with thedetention officers and they work
(18:54):
with your pot, the folks on yourpod.
And those that emotionregulation that you can use when
your kiddos throwing a fit.
You can also use when there's afight taking place and you're
not going to partake becauseyou've got, now you have
something to really lose.
You have something hopeful whileyou're incarcerated and
something to work toward.
So we see positive feedback onthat.
Just giving folks opportunity toprogress in an environment that
(19:16):
doesn't always have a lot ofopportunity for hope or
opportunity to learn reallyengage in a positive way.
So we get positive feedback fromthat.
And then, you know, thecommunity, I think opportunities
like this are so important to beable to talk about what we do
because I think it's quitefrequently, unless you've been
directly impacted by thissystem, you're not thinking
(19:38):
about what's going on insideyour local jail.
And you're not thinking aboutthe devastation that that one
person's incarceration has lefton an entire family.
But when we have the opportunityto tell folks about the positive
things going on about howresilient people are and how,
how much they strive to improvetheir lives for their family
(20:00):
break those cycles, we've seenpositive reactions.
We had an incredible turnoutfrom the community.
We had over 40 donors thatadopted 70 kiddos for the
holidays.
And that tells me that there'snot stigma around all this
family.
You know, deserves the situationthey're in that shows me that
maybe there's some compassionand we're, we're moving the
(20:20):
needle, but there's certainly alot of work to be done.
But I don't know that everyoneeven knows or thinks about or
understands the devastation thatcan take place in our
communities when we incarceratea single person.
Chris (20:31):
How would families keep in touch today without your
program?
Lucie (20:36):
Many jails have the opportunity, or every jail has
the opportunity for phone callsand video calls.
There's usually a prettysignificant cost to those, so
folks are paying for that.
There's money on their books thecaregiver may be providing that
money or there's a cost andknowing that many of the
families that we work with arealready impoverished It's an
(20:58):
added cost that many can'tafford.
So there's actually a study TheElla Baker Center for Human
Rights did a study on the costof families trying to keep in
touch with their incarceratedloved ones it's been a few years
now, but it found that one inthree families go into debt
trying to afford the phone callsand visits with their
incarcerated loved ones.
So when we come in, in some ofour jails, we can provide free
(21:20):
video visits that were there.
We're monitoring where we'rethere while they're on the iPad
and we're making sure that it'sa healthy visit and it's at no
cost to them.
And then for the in personpiece, there's not usually that
opportunity for contactvisitation.
There may be the opportunitybehind glass.
And so really facilitating,without our program, there's not
that facilitated contact.
But even with the ability, folksare often incarcerated.
(21:43):
far away from where their kiddoslive.
And that can happen for a numberof reasons, right?
You might be held in a differentcounty jail from where you were
arrested.
You might be arrested somewheredifferent from where you live.
Maybe your kids had to go livewith a family member two hours
away when you were incarcerated.
And so even driving to the jailcan be a huge barrier.
So we also give gas cards to ourcaregivers every week when they
(22:03):
bring the kiddos to visits.
So we're really working on, notjust that relational piece and
rebuilding relationships withcaregivers, but also reducing
the financial costs for thesefamilies so that it's something
that they don't have to worryabout when it comes to the cost
burden.
And I think one thing to reallykeep in mind is, of course,
we're making sure it's in thebest interest of kiddos before
we're facilitating any contact.
(22:25):
But research does show that ifthe parent had a primary role
with that in that child's lifeprior to incarceration, that
there are negative impacts tothat kiddo that are more likely
to occur.
And that could be worse mentalhealth outcomes, hampered
educational outcomes.
They may be at a higher risk ofincarceration themselves.
But there are positivemitigating factors, and, and
(22:46):
those are that the child canmaintain contact with their
parent through the incarcerationperiod, and that there is a
support system for that family.
So, we think that is really thewhy it's really helping to
reduce the trauma that thesekiddos are going through but it
also helps the participant, ofcourse, too.
And that hope can also reducerecidivism, keep them with ties
to their family and theircommunity and give them
(23:08):
something to look forward to.
So we really see this impactingthe entire family and, and
really hoping to reduce a lot ofthe impacts that come from that
trauma that the child hasexperienced as a result of the
parent's incarceration
Rachel (23:21):
So at FCS we like to say hope starts here.
In light of your role inParenting in Jail, can you tell
us what gives you hope?
Lucie (23:28):
I actually find a lot of hope.
in the jails.
And some days I am overwhelmedby the news, a crazy work day
and I go to work a visit in ourjails and I, that is where I get
my hope for the next day.
I see a lot of humanity andresilience and healing taking
place within the classrooms whenwe have our visits.
(23:51):
And so I see hope in our 6'4"dad that is delicately braiding
his four year old's hair.
I see hope in the dad that'sdoing book club with his
teenager.
I see hope with our mom wholearned about how to bond with
their kids through plain readingand somehow has all four kids
spread on the rug listening toher read the same book about
how, regardless of theirseparation, there's always an
(24:13):
invisible string that willconnect them.
I have hope when all theparticipants write down recipes
to mail their kiddos overThanksgiving because they won't
be together.
And I see hope in the supportthat one mom gives another when
her kiddos couldn't make it thatweek.
It's, it's a really tough thingto process.
So I actually see hope in ourjails.
(24:33):
I see it every day just throughthese interactions and the, the
beauty of folks really workinghard to break cycles for their
families and, and make suretheir kiddos know that they're
loved.
Chris (24:46):
That's awesome.
This has been great, Lucie.
You know, when I think ofparenting in jail, I think of it
somewhat academically, andyou've really brought some
humanity to this, and it's beenvery insightful and so happy
that you were able to join ustoday, and we hope that you'll
be able to again.
Lucie (25:03):
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
Rachel (25:08):
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(25:51):
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Until next time.
Hello and welcome to OK State of Mind, a podcast by
(00:02):
Family Children's Services,based in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
This podcast seeks to satisfyinquisitive minds eager to delve
into the realm of mental healthand overall well being.
Join us on a journey to gaininsights into the intricacies of
the human psyche Drawinginspiration from stories of
resilience and hope.
Rachel (00:23):
Together we'll unravel the fascinating science, the
invisibilia that underpins ourbehaviors, shedding light on the
whys behind our behavior andoverall mental health.
Our goal is to empower, educate,and inspire you with actionable
insights that you canimmediately use in pursuing your
own mental wellbeing.
Chris (00:41):
In our last episode, we spoke with Family Children's
Services' new CEO, AdamAndreassen.
During this episode, Andreassendiscussed his journey within
behavioral health care andshared insights into the
personal motivations that fuelhis dedication to transforming
the lives of those in need.
He also discussed how FCS, aCertified Community Behavioral
(01:05):
Health Center, goes beyondmental health care, integrating
physical health coordination androbust social services.
This episode, as well as allother episodes of OK State of
Mind, are available atokstateofmind.com, as well as
other major podcast platforms.
Today we're speaking with LucieDoll, Director of the Parenting
(01:26):
in Jail Program at FCS.
Lucie supports a team ofeducators who serve families
impacted by the criminal legalsystem through evidence-based
parenting classes, in jailcontact visits with minor
children and their loved ones,and- caregiver support.
Lucie serves on the board ofdirectors for the Oklahoma
Partnership for School ReadinessFoundation and she holds a
(01:46):
bachelor of science in businessadministration and a minor in
public policy from theUniversity of North Carolina
Chapel Hill.
We're happy to have you with ushere today, Lucie.
Today we're interested in a highlevel overview of your program.
Can you take a minute todescribe Parenting in Jail for
anybody who might not befamiliar with it?
Lucie (02:07):
Absolutely.
I'm excited to be here.
The Parenting in Jail program isa program of Family Children's
Services.
We're a psychoeducationalprogram and we're currently
operating in six county jails inTulsa and surrounding counties.
We go into those jails and weteach parenting education 2 to 3
times a week.
We often have the opportunity tofacilitate in person contact
(02:30):
visits.
with kiddos and theirincarcerated loved ones and then
we support the caregivers thatare actively caring for children
in the community make sure theyhave the support and the
resources that they need as theygo through this this time in
their lives
Rachel (02:43):
How do you determine who will be a part of the Parenting
in Jail services in the program?
Lucie (02:49):
So our program is 100 percent voluntary.
We put up sign up sheets in thepod or we have opportunities if
you are jails for them to signup on a kiosk, but regardless,
either way, it's something thatwe want folks to want to be
there.
And so it's something they optinto.
We may get a referral from jailstaff or from child welfare
workers, but it's something thatthey opt into and want to
(03:11):
participate in.
We will take any Individual inour jails that has a
relationship with with minorchildren.
So we really prioritize ourparents, but we also see a lot
of benefit to grandma, grandpaand uncle, older sister,
brother, maybe even a parentalfigure that isn't the biological
(03:32):
parent.
It's our belief and our approachthat the child, the children are
community will be stronger ifevery adult in their life has
the skills that they could betaught through this program and
also that every family lookspretty different.
And so we don't put reallyrestrictive criteria there on
that relationship, and then wedo have a few charges that would
make someone ineligible.
And those are your more violentcharges or egregious charges
(03:55):
towards a child.
And so there's a few that wewould staff or or rule out.
But other than that, it's justmaking sure that jail staff
approves.
They have discretion, of course,because it takes place in their
facility, and it's considered aprivilege at our jails.
So, we work closely with jailstaff to make sure that they're
on good behavior to participate.
Chris (04:10):
Hmm.
Is it open to women and men, oris it women only?
Lucie (04:13):
It is.
It was started out as womenonly.
We've been doing this work since2015, and it started just
serving women in the TulsaCounty Jail.
David L.
Moss.
And we had the opportunity toexpand as a result of getting
funding through the state ofOklahoma through the Department
of Human Services.
We got two TANF contracts andthat allowed us to expand
geographically and then also ledto us serving men in partnership
(04:35):
with philanthropic partners.
So we now serve men.
We've been doing that about thelast year and a half and we've
seen a lot of success.
We had, we actually had a lot ofrequests from our law
enforcement partners and tollset what, you know, can we do
this for the men and the dads?
And so when we got theopportunity through increased
funding streams Then we werereally excited to do it and it's
been pretty wonderful to watchit unfold.
Rachel (04:57):
That's great Can you kind of walk us through what the
program looks like forparticipants?
Is it the same for everyone ordo you tailor it to certain
needs?
Lucie (05:06):
Probably the best answer to that is both.
Everyone's getting the samecurriculum.
We use an evidence basedcurriculum.
It's called Parenting InsideOut.
And that curriculum is thehighest rated evidence based
curriculum that's specificallygeared towards individuals with
criminal legal systeminvolvement.
So there's actually specificallya jail based version of the
curriculum.
And that is taught with theunderstanding that you're not
(05:30):
going home to practice theseskills tonight in your living
room with your kiddos, but let'stalk about how you can put them
into action during your nextvideo visit or during your next
in person visit or maybe justyour next phone call with your
kids.
It also focuses a lot on the,the caregiver relationship and
understanding how important andcrucial that is to effective
parenting given the situationthe family's currently in.
(05:50):
So everyone is receiving thatcurriculum.
It's 12 lessons in the jail andthat is happening in a group
setting.
So there's peer learning,there's role play with one
another, there's that peeradvice and, and really working
through problem solvingsituations together.
But before anyone's enrolled inthe class, we do a one on one
screening with our educator andindividual, and that's when
(06:11):
we're getting a betterunderstanding of their unique
situation.
So, where are your kids rightnow?
Do you have contact with them?
What does that look like?
What's your relationship withyour caregiver?
Is your caregiver your Motherand their grandmother.
Is it your ex partner reallyunderstanding what are those
dynamics and then understandingwhat led them to their time in
jail currently?
Whether they're engaged with anyprograms, what are their what
(06:33):
they think will happen to themnext?
And then really getting abaseline of their parenting
skills using a pre survey.
So we really can tailor ourapproach to outreaching their
family and their children basedon all that information.
So they're learning the sameskills because we want to stay
in the evidence basedcurriculum.
But how our educators work withtheir family is very much
(06:55):
tailored to each situation, andit looks so different for every
family.
Success looks different forevery family.
Unfortunately, every parentcan't have contact with their
children.
But many can, and maybe thereare barriers that we could help
to remove.
And so that's when we reallywork to, to tailor based on
their goals and their currentsituation.
In addition to those classes,it's 12 lessons.
(07:15):
That curriculum is reallyengaging, really tailored to
their unique situation.
So, when they're talking aboutthings like effective speaking
or effective listening, they'reactually going through role
plays.
And we've actually hadparticipants come back and say,
this works.
My phone call lasted more than30 seconds.
Instead of saying, put my kidson the phone.
I asked my mom how she wasdoing.
(07:36):
I thanked her for what she'sdoing.
And then I listened to herresponse before I answered.
And we see these incrementalwins.
There's obviously a lot that canhappen in folks' families before
we, before we see them.
There's no silver bullet, but wesee it.
Often very quick wins in mendingthose relationships just by some
really foundational skills, likehow do you effectively listen,
(07:59):
effectively, speak in arespectful way that can really
help acknowledge the work thatyour family member is doing for
you, but also to get your needsacross.
If, if you wanna know how yourkiddo's doing, or if you wanna
have input on that child's life,like if that's your goal, here's
some of the steps that, that youneed to take.
So on that note, in addition tothe classes.
(08:19):
Three of our jails, we haveweekly enhanced contact
visitation, so every week.
Anyone is eligible if they'vetaken at least half of the
curriculum, so six lessons.
We'll outreach caregivers anddetermine if it's in the best
interest of the children to seetheir parent.
And we'll work with caregiversand of course DHS Child Welfare
(08:39):
if they're a party to the familysituation.
And if it is in the bestinterest, then we can facilitate
contact visits.
And those are so different thanwhat is typically available to a
child with an incarceratedparent in our jails.
In most cases, there's noopportunity for them to really
see their parent without ourprogram.
In some, they might be able tosit in a visitation room that
(09:00):
you might envision with theglass or plexiglass divider.
But how hard is that for atoddler to not understand why
they can't touch their mom thatused to care for them?
It's hard for an adult to seetheir loved one behind glass.
But those non contact visits arereally challenging for our
littles.
So our visits look totallydifferent.
We roll out bright colorfulrugs.
We bring in toys and books andgames and parents really get to
(09:23):
practice the skills they learnin class and kids get to really
interact as naturally aspossible given the setting with
their parents.
We have a few jails that we cando it on a case by case basis.
And then if we can't do inperson visits, either because of
the jails restrictions orbecause the family can't make it
there, then we can alsofacilitate free video visits,
(09:44):
which are a really wonderfulaspect because there's no charge
to either party.
We can do those on a recurringbasis.
And we have techniques even tomake video visits more
meaningful, even for yourlittles.
We have tips on, like,caregivers that are can be the
hands of the the participant.
So maybe mom's going to ticklethe one year old through the
screen and caregiver is going toactually tickle the kiddo.
(10:05):
And we have these techniquesthat, that actually can make a
difference.
Or maybe we send a book to theirhouse, that's the same that mom
is reading.
And so they're reading that booktogether.
So there are ways that we can,can try to really optimize those
experiences for, for kiddos.
And then the third piece is thecaregiver support.
So I just want to touch on thatbecause it's so important.
About half our caregivers arethe other parent, and then about
(10:28):
a quarter are grandparents, andthen that remaining quarter
looks like all sorts ofdifferent relationships.
And so we reach out tocaregivers too, and we just ask
what they need.
They're often informal kinship,so they've just taken the kiddos
at the time of arrest maybe, ormaybe they've had the kiddos off
and on for a long time.
And so they may not be receivingany formal support.
Or it's the other parent andthey've lost a primary caregiver
(10:51):
and financial provider and theirlife has changed very
dramatically.
And so we just look to link themto resources and services.
So we refer them to the variousfamily and children's programs.
We can do school supplies andholiday gifts and things of that
nature.
Chris (11:06):
That's awesome.
So, it's really more than just aparent and a child.
It's a parent, child, and theirentire, caring community.
How long has Parenting in Jailbeen in place now?
Lucie (11:19):
Began in 2015.
And that was again when we werein on that smaller scale.
So working with women and justthe Tulsa County Jail, David L.
Moss.
Chris (11:27):
Okay.
Lucie (11:28):
The broader expansions been since essentially early
2022.
Chris (11:32):
Any other changes or evolutions in the program that
you've observed or that you'reaware of since 2016?
Lucie (11:40):
The biggest ones are that we've expanded to serve men.
We've expanded into some of oursurrounding counties.
The resources there lookdifferent.
We get to know those communitiesso that we can really plug folks
into what is available nearthem.
So that's been a huge change.
And then we've reallystrengthened the caregiver
support arm more over the years.
And that was really credit to mycolleague Alicia, who really saw
(12:01):
that need, that they were notreceiving support.
And she realized that when shewas calling them to set up
visits.
And she'd hear that they, theydidn't know if they were going
to be able to put food on thetable.
Or they were just reallyoverwhelmed with, The impact of
incarceration.
They didn't know how to talk totheir little in a way that was,
they wanted to protect them, butthey wanted to, they couldn't
even figure out how to broachthe topic.
(12:23):
Mm-Hmm.
And so that's where this, thisarm of caregiver support has
really strengthened over theyears, and we continue to work
to build that out.
Rachel (12:30):
What can a person expect when starting the parenting in
jail program?
Lucie (12:36):
We have a whole community agreement.
And that is a lot of mutualrespect.
We don't force anyone to share,but I think what we see is a lot
of introspection andvulnerability once they get in.
But really, it's just anopenness and we ask that they
come really ready to engage.
We find that they open up reallyquickly and really enjoy that
but really making sure that ifthey sign up, that they continue
(12:59):
to show up and they show up andready to, to really take part in
the curriculum and support theirpeers through this process.
But then more logisticallythey're, they're signing up for
classes two to three times aweek over the course of four to
six weeks and then they'repotentially, they're signing up
for a family liaison that'sgoing to help them to pursue
whatever goals they have as itpertains to contacting their
(13:21):
children.
Chris (13:23):
Any participants ever expressed fear or uneasiness
about starting the program?
Lucie (13:29):
Yes, I think it takes a while to build trust, right?
I mean, we're asking how youparent your child, and that can
feel awfully vulnerable,especially knowing where we're
meeting them when we have theseconversations.
And so I think there's certainlyfear around how that
vulnerability might be usedagainst them or their family,
knowing that they've come intocontact with a lot of systems by
(13:49):
the time we meet with them.
So I certainly think there's alittle bit of that.
I think when I see the most fearis when our, it's not around us,
but it's when our participantshaven't seen their kiddos in a
long time.
We have had visits where theyhaven't seen each other in
months.
We've had visits where theyhaven't seen each other in over
a year.
We've had dads that have mettheir babies for the first time
(14:11):
in our visits.
So I think the most emotion isanticipation.
I've had grown men shaking readyto hold that infant.
See a lot of fear aroundchanging that first diaper and,
you know, there's often a lot ofshame that comes with that.
And so I think for us, it'shelping them to.
process that and of course, takeaccountability, but move past it
(14:32):
so that they can look forward toall the parenting opportunities
that they and their childrenhave in the future.
And so it's really helping themto feel empowered and have some
hope.
But I think to me, yeah, themost fear is sometimes those
visits where you haven't huggedyour child in two years and, and
And we had one like that, and,and she was the primary
caregiver before that happened.
(14:53):
So you think about just thetremendous negative impact on,
on everyone involved.
Rachel (15:01):
Can you share a success story from the Parenting in Jail
program?
I'm sure you have many.
Lucie (15:05):
We do, and we have hard ones too.
I mean, just to be frank we haveso many different levels of
success.
So we have a beautiful successstory is that we had,
unfortunately, a mother who wentthrough the, the process of
giving birth while incarceratedin jail and then having that
baby taken, of course, becausehe couldn't return to the jail.
(15:26):
Awfully traumatic for allinvolved and came with a lot of
hopelessness, I think, and a lotof resentment and anger that
that was the situation, but thatquickly turned to, What do I
need to do to get on track here?
And so our program was there soshe could enroll in the program
and she could take parentingclasses and she could progress
on her individualized serviceplan that DHS child welfare had
(15:49):
assigned to her in order to worktowards that reunification,
which isn't always the case of aparent's incarcerated.
You know, we hear from workersthat it's often don't have much
to update on because mom's injail or dad's in jail.
So with our program, she wasable to complete a full box on
her list for her individualizedservice plan.
She completed evidence basedparenting and then she was able
(16:11):
to visit with her baby girlweekly and child welfare came to
observe how positively they'reengaging that they were building
that bond.
And so when she was released, wehave colleagues from our reentry
team that helped to identifytransitional housing upon her
release and she already had sucha strong foundation and she was
so hopeful.
Yeah.
By the time she stepped footoutside of that jail and she was
(16:31):
able to enter trialreunification a matter of weeks
after release, which is just notyour norm when you're leaving
incarceration.
And so I think that is a reallybeautiful success story.
That's like maximizingeverything our program could do.
That's not what happens toeveryone by any means.
We have folks that might not bereleased to the community in the
(16:52):
short term.
A really beautiful success I'veseen recently is we have a dad
who has a teenager who's reallystruggling with His
incarceration.
She and so sometimes she doesn'tfeel like getting on the phone
She is just really struggling towork through that as you can
imagine and he was asking aboutways that he could help her
process And how could theyfigure this out?
(17:12):
And so we ordered books forthem.
They're published by kids whoseparents are incarcerated.
It's a compilation of prose andpoems about the experience.
So they're doing, they are nowusing their weekly visits for a
book club and they're talkingabout the poems that they're
reading and she's talking abouthow it relates to her
experience.
And dad is reading these poemsand it's beautiful.
(17:34):
I mean, he's doing anything hecan to meet her where she is.
And again, moving past that.
That shame.
You can actively parent here andhere.
Here's some tools and how can wesupport you?
So success can look reallydifferent.
But I think they're, it's allincredibly meaningful.
Children love their parents andthe parents love their children
and just helping them to connectin a meaningful and effective
(17:55):
way.
It's of course safe and healthyfor all.
Chris (17:58):
Yeah.
What sort of feedback are yougetting on this?
I can imagine you're gettingvery positive feedback from
participants but how are peopleresponding to this outside of
the program?
Lucie (18:10):
Well, I think about participant feedback this week.
I heard that we had a graduationand we had a participant say,
this is the first thing I'veever completed.
I was holding a certificate andI did it for my kids.
So I think that is prettyrewarding feedback for our team
and we hope the first of manythings they complete.
But then from our jail partners,we couldn't do this work without
(18:33):
the jail staff letting us in thedoor.
And we see really positivefeedback from them.
In addition to the outcomes andthe goals that our program
prioritizes.
We see a lot of tangentialbenefits to just general
increase in pro social behavior.
Those communication skills theyuse with caregiver.
They also work with thedetention officers and they work
(18:54):
with your pot, the folks on yourpod.
And those that emotionregulation that you can use when
your kiddos throwing a fit.
You can also use when there's afight taking place and you're
not going to partake becauseyou've got, now you have
something to really lose.
You have something hopeful whileyou're incarcerated and
something to work toward.
So we see positive feedback onthat.
Just giving folks opportunity toprogress in an environment that
(19:16):
doesn't always have a lot ofopportunity for hope or
opportunity to learn reallyengage in a positive way.
So we get positive feedback fromthat.
And then, you know, thecommunity, I think opportunities
like this are so important to beable to talk about what we do
because I think it's quitefrequently, unless you've been
directly impacted by thissystem, you're not thinking
(19:38):
about what's going on insideyour local jail.
And you're not thinking aboutthe devastation that that one
person's incarceration has lefton an entire family.
But when we have the opportunityto tell folks about the positive
things going on about howresilient people are and how,
how much they strive to improvetheir lives for their family
(20:00):
break those cycles, we've seenpositive reactions.
We had an incredible turnoutfrom the community.
We had over 40 donors thatadopted 70 kiddos for the
holidays.
And that tells me that there'snot stigma around all this
family.
You know, deserves the situationthey're in that shows me that
maybe there's some compassionand we're, we're moving the
(20:20):
needle, but there's certainly alot of work to be done.
But I don't know that everyoneeven knows or thinks about or
understands the devastation thatcan take place in our
communities when we incarceratea single person.
Chris (20:31):
How would families keep in touch today without your
program?
Lucie (20:36):
Many jails have the opportunity, or every jail has
the opportunity for phone callsand video calls.
There's usually a prettysignificant cost to those, so
folks are paying for that.
There's money on their books thecaregiver may be providing that
money or there's a cost andknowing that many of the
families that we work with arealready impoverished It's an
(20:58):
added cost that many can'tafford.
So there's actually a study TheElla Baker Center for Human
Rights did a study on the costof families trying to keep in
touch with their incarceratedloved ones it's been a few years
now, but it found that one inthree families go into debt
trying to afford the phone callsand visits with their
incarcerated loved ones.
So when we come in, in some ofour jails, we can provide free
(21:20):
video visits that were there.
We're monitoring where we'rethere while they're on the iPad
and we're making sure that it'sa healthy visit and it's at no
cost to them.
And then for the in personpiece, there's not usually that
opportunity for contactvisitation.
There may be the opportunitybehind glass.
And so really facilitating,without our program, there's not
that facilitated contact.
But even with the ability, folksare often incarcerated.
(21:43):
far away from where their kiddoslive.
And that can happen for a numberof reasons, right?
You might be held in a differentcounty jail from where you were
arrested.
You might be arrested somewheredifferent from where you live.
Maybe your kids had to go livewith a family member two hours
away when you were incarcerated.
And so even driving to the jailcan be a huge barrier.
So we also give gas cards to ourcaregivers every week when they
(22:03):
bring the kiddos to visits.
So we're really working on, notjust that relational piece and
rebuilding relationships withcaregivers, but also reducing
the financial costs for thesefamilies so that it's something
that they don't have to worryabout when it comes to the cost
burden.
And I think one thing to reallykeep in mind is, of course,
we're making sure it's in thebest interest of kiddos before
we're facilitating any contact.
(22:25):
But research does show that ifthe parent had a primary role
with that in that child's lifeprior to incarceration, that
there are negative impacts tothat kiddo that are more likely
to occur.
And that could be worse mentalhealth outcomes, hampered
educational outcomes.
They may be at a higher risk ofincarceration themselves.
But there are positivemitigating factors, and, and
(22:46):
those are that the child canmaintain contact with their
parent through the incarcerationperiod, and that there is a
support system for that family.
So, we think that is really thewhy it's really helping to
reduce the trauma that thesekiddos are going through but it
also helps the participant, ofcourse, too.
And that hope can also reducerecidivism, keep them with ties
to their family and theircommunity and give them
(23:08):
something to look forward to.
So we really see this impactingthe entire family and, and
really hoping to reduce a lot ofthe impacts that come from that
trauma that the child hasexperienced as a result of the
parent's incarceration
Rachel (23:21):
So at FCS we like to say hope starts here.
In light of your role inParenting in Jail, can you tell
us what gives you hope?
Lucie (23:28):
I actually find a lot of hope.
in the jails.
And some days I am overwhelmedby the news, a crazy work day
and I go to work a visit in ourjails and I, that is where I get
my hope for the next day.
I see a lot of humanity andresilience and healing taking
place within the classrooms whenwe have our visits.
(23:51):
And so I see hope in our 6'4"dad that is delicately braiding
his four year old's hair.
I see hope in the dad that'sdoing book club with his
teenager.
I see hope with our mom wholearned about how to bond with
their kids through plain readingand somehow has all four kids
spread on the rug listening toher read the same book about
how, regardless of theirseparation, there's always an
(24:13):
invisible string that willconnect them.
I have hope when all theparticipants write down recipes
to mail their kiddos overThanksgiving because they won't
be together.
And I see hope in the supportthat one mom gives another when
her kiddos couldn't make it thatweek.
It's, it's a really tough thingto process.
So I actually see hope in ourjails.
(24:33):
I see it every day just throughthese interactions and the, the
beauty of folks really workinghard to break cycles for their
families and, and make suretheir kiddos know that they're
loved.
Chris (24:46):
That's awesome.
This has been great, Lucie.
You know, when I think ofparenting in jail, I think of it
somewhat academically, andyou've really brought some
humanity to this, and it's beenvery insightful and so happy
that you were able to join ustoday, and we hope that you'll
be able to again.
Lucie (25:03):
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
Rachel (25:08):
Thanks for tuning in.
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Until next time.
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