September 17, 2024 • 43 mins
Join us for a "real" conversation with two incredible leaders shaping behavioral health in Tulsa: Adam Andreassen, CEO of Family & Children’s Services, and Jim Serratt, CEO of Parkside Psychiatric Hospital.
This episode isn’t just about data and strategies; it’s about the strength of partnerships and how communities can come together to make real, lasting change for people.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam (00:00):
One of the things I want to state about mental health
(00:01):
there is a long history, even inan amazing country like the one
we're in, of people not alwaysbeing, treated and received,
even by the mental health systemin the best possible way.
Jim (00:11):
I think I would issue a challenge.
Adam (00:13):
Jim.
What are you laying down?
Jim (00:13):
Yeah, let's come together.
Let's talk about, in real terms,in truth, let's talk about what
our real needs are here.
Not just what we think we needto do, but what do we really
need to do?
Let's forget the stereotypes ofwhat each of us does.
Let's find our lane that we'regreat at and make that a
superhighway instead of a bunchof roads that are crossing each
other.
Dee (00:34):
Welcome to today's episode of OK State of Mind, a family
and children's services podcast.
I'm your host Dee Harris, andtoday I'm talking with two
incredible behavioral healthleaders in Tulsa, Adam
Andreessen, the CEO of Familyand Children's Services, and Jim
Serratt, the CEO of Parkside, apsychiatric hospital that plays
a pivotal role in Tulsa's mentalhealth landscape.
(00:56):
Today's conversation isn't justabout data and strategies.
It's about partnerships and thepower of community coming
together to make a realdifference.
So whether you're a mentalhealth professional, a community
leader, or simply someone whojust cares deeply about the
mental well being of others,this episode is for you.
So welcome Adam and Jim.
(01:16):
I'm excited to talk about thispartnership, especially the Zero
Suicide Academy.
I mean, I know there's a lot ofsystems that have brought zero
suicide into their environmentsand really has helped with the
prevention piece of that.
So, why was it important tobring this academy to Tulsa?
Jim (01:32):
So first off, thanks for having me guys.
This is really cool for all ofus to get to sit down and talk
about some really importantstuff.
Zero suicide, was fairly new tome as an organization.
But the suicide aspect of it, ofcourse, is very personal.
Uh, very dear friend of mine,uh, lost his child while we were
both working as CEOs ofbehavioral health hospitals.
(01:53):
And so we should know thisstuff, right?
We should be able to.
figure that out way ahead oftime, but he lost his daughter
very early on and so we spent alot of time talking about it.
And so it doesn't, uh, it neverleaves any of us when that kind
of impact happens.
And so when one of our staffmembers came to me and said,
there's, there's this idea, thisis zero suicide, which sounds
(02:16):
just the words itself.
Sounds like we ought to all beheading that way, right?
Right.
Okay.
So, she brought that in and webegan to explore it and knew we
needed an outstanding partner tohelp us pull that off.
And, couldn't think of anybodyI'd rather work with.
So, that came about and wereally appreciate the
opportunity to share thisadventure here in the Tulsa
(02:37):
area.
Adam (02:37):
So, I was really excited to hear about the Academy.
Everywhere I've been, you know,Zero Suicide is thankfully a
common thing in the UnitedStates, and I, I think it's sort
of that best and worst of bothworlds because on the one hand,
it's got a lot of attention andon the other hand, suicide keeps
going up.
And so all the things that we'redoing I wouldn't say they're not
(02:59):
helping.
I think they are helping, butwhatever is happening more
broadly, it really is,continuing to leave its mark,
and of course COVID and allthese things kind of added on to
it, and so it's just this thingthat we really need to push into
more.
So while I've heard about zerosuicide, the academy and that
next level of bringing thattraining into the area.
(03:21):
That was something I was realexcited about when approached
about the podcast.
And it was of course, uh, agreat opportunity to learn a lot
of what both Parkside's up toand now what we're doing
together.
Jim (03:30):
Yeah, I think zero suicides on everybody's mind everywhere.
And they've been talking aboutit a long time.
The academy was something newfor me in that we can take a
small group of people,relatively small group of people
in the community and use that asthe catalyst to create really
strong system wide change whereit comes to the forefront rather
than the grief after the fact.
(03:52):
We're going to do somethingproactive about it.
And so to do that, you have tohave the tools to do it
correctly.
And this academy sets us up withfolks who are prepared to come
in and take a small group ofpeople, tune them up, get them
ready to go, and create the kindof change that we need in the
Tulsa area.
Because you're right, we allknow this, right?
You can't pick up a newspaper,you can't listen to any radio
(04:15):
program without hearing aboutthis severe problem that we have
in this area, and yet, it keepsgrowing.
Adam (04:21):
Yeah, so, at Parkside, I think a lot of people know what
Parkside is and does, but Idon't know that most people even
understand, you know, what is apsychiatric hospital in 2024.
How long do people stay?
What happens inside it?
Because I think that for us tohave this conversation, sort of
that continuum of, you know,everyday life, schools, other
lines of defense, and then youcome with family, children's and
(04:43):
Parkside.
How does Parkside fit into thispuzzle of what people go through
and how, how we help?
Because I think that's animportant part of the
conversation.
Jim (04:51):
Yeah, it is Adam.
Thank you.
So, I even have staff membersthat when they come to work are
not real sure exactly everythingthat we do.
They just know that we have totake care of people, primarily
keep them safe.
It's evolved over the years.
You know, we used to think aboutlong term care in psychiatric
hospitals.
And that's not really our roleanymore because all the folks
like family and children's andall the area folks have Come to
(05:13):
the table so strong, and there'sbeen so much investment in the
wraparound services and in thethings that will help people
stay strong, that now what ourjob is, I explain this to our
staff this way, our job is tocatch.
So we're that last line ofdefense that catch.
You probably don't think aboutParkside or us.
(05:34):
Except maybe on a Friday nightat 11 o'clock when something
really bad has happened orsomething has been said, uh,
whether it's among your familyor school or any other setting,
a church.
And so, we realize there's aproblem and so there is a place
that we can keep people safe.
Do comprehensive assessmentwork, help people understand
where they are, keep them safe,and get them ready to get them
(05:57):
right back out to you guys.
Adam (05:58):
And I think that's something that is a huge part of
what we do as well, and I wantto come back to that for a
second because family andchildren's, you know, anybody
that listens probably tired ofhearing the story, but we came
to exist about a hundred twoyears ago because women and
children were often the onesfalling as, you know, men at
that point in the traditionalhome were, out and about in the
oil rush, and they were beingpulled off to this, that, or the
(06:20):
other, sometimes dying,sometimes moving.
And so people were, your words,falling, and we, that's how we
came to be, kind of lifting themup.
And that sort of lifting up thefloor of people's experience,
that prevention and response tocrisis is still so core to
everything we do.
And you hope that thatprevention comes into it.
Now what does Parkside do thatwould be like, okay, you catch
(06:43):
people, but then how does thatfeed into prevention?
Or does Parkside do anyprevention?
Jim (06:48):
Yeah, so the second phase of that is we, so I said we
catch.
So, then we lift.
And so, the job is to put asmany tools in the toolbox of,
especially these kids that we'reworking with, to help people
have something when they walkout the door.
From the second someone feelslike they need to be safe, they
need to come to an environmentwhere they can be safe, where
(07:09):
authorities even feel like theyneed to be somewhere safe, we
begin to work on the idea ofthem not being with us.
So it's a little different kindof process.
We're not looking
Adam (07:19):
You mean discharge, not being with us.
Jim (07:21):
We're not, we're not looking for, um, you know, uh,
Long-term customers, if youwill.
That's terrible to put it thatway, but that's, that's what it
is.
So we catch, we lift, and thenreally we push, we help get
people to the right place.
I think that's the mostimportant thing that we do
because people don't need tostay in a psychiatric hospital.
And that's why the partnerships.
(07:43):
that we've developed with youguys especially and with others
in the community becomes soimportant because we have to
have worthy partners on theother side to be able to move
people to effectively and the,the question I always get asked
is, what's the average length ofstay at the hospital?
Adam (07:58):
What is the average length of stay?
Jim (07:59):
It's seven to 10 days.
And so that means it could beanything from five to a couple
of weeks, depending becauseWe've really pushed into this
individualized treatmentplanning.
And so that's not something thatwas always there in the past of
psychiatric care.
there were a lot of cookiecutters work.
But now, there's no set pattern.
(08:20):
It has to do with the patient,where they're at, where the
family's at, where the supportsystems are at, because they've
got to be released into a verysafe environment.
So that's
Adam (08:31):
If we were to compare this to like Big Box Hospital, is
what Parkside does, is it's sortof like an emergency department,
patches you up, gets you backout on the road.
connects you to some other levelof care so that you get that
follow up?
Or is there a different analogy?
How would, how would youdescribe it if you would compare
it to what people are broadlyfamiliar with in the healthcare
world?
Jim (08:50):
Yeah, it's very much like an emergency room for
psychiatric care.
we work very closely with thearea emergency rooms as a matter
of fact.
And so, we supply thatstabilizations.
We're like the ICU after asurgery, you know, you go into
the SICU for a little while.
And so it's, we assume that'sacute care.
(09:11):
And so that's what we focus on.
We'll also do some long termcare if that's what's indicated,
but that has to be somethingthat's kind of agreed on by
everyone.
So that acute stabilization, weuse the word stabilization a
lot.
We get folks to a better placethan they are when they come in.
So the most important thing wedo is get them ready to be
successful with you or withother outside providers because
(09:34):
people don't initially that haveto be hospitalized really want
to think about the next step.
They think, I'm going to be inthe hospital a couple of days,
my child's going to be in thehospital a couple of days,
everything's going to be okay.
But the fact of the matter is,we try to therapeutically
introduce the idea of beinginvolved in treatment, the idea
of being involved in gettingbetter, owning some of that, and
(09:57):
being so ready to do that whenthey leave that we make that
process easy so that they'll becompliant and The funny thing is
most of the people to dischargethat I talked to The first thing
I say to them is I don't everwant to see you again, and I
mean it sincerely and so that'sbeen the 35 year career of
(10:17):
trying to work my way out of abusiness, work my way out of
this, and it just hasn'thappened.
Adam (10:23):
You continue to suffer from relevance, uh, as do we all
right now.
And I think that the thingthat's so challenging is we all
would love to work ourselves outof this job, and yet, I'm seeing
some pretty startlingstatistics, and I've been in
this field a while, and you'vebeen in this field a while, but
some of the statistics I'mseeing on suicide and other
deaths of despair are prettystartling, even when I thought
(10:46):
that I was hard to shock, andone of the ones that caught my
attention, I was at a conferencelast week that really caught my
attention, you take students,people in school right now,
kiddos, students, teenagers,adolescents, middle schoolers,
so on, 40% of students rightnow, we're not just talking
about have some distress or somesadness.
40 percent of studentsnationwide right now have
(11:08):
chronic sadness or hopelessness,persistent.
And that just blows my mind Sowe're doing a lot we can do on
patching people up, getting themback out there.
But I really am struggling withwhat are we doing as a society
if 40 percent of young people.
who are supposed to be the mostoptimistic on the planet, 40
percent of them are experiencingpersistent helplessness,
(11:31):
hopelessness, sadness.
How do we pull ourselves out ofthat?
I'm sort of going a littlephilosophical here.
What do we do?
Because we can patch people upand patch people up, but if
we're really just stacking up asociety that is 40 percent sad
and hopeless.
And by the way, some of thosestatistics are even worse when
you start breaking down peoplegroups.
The LGBTQ plus population is wayhigher than that.
(11:53):
A lot of the different, ethnicand minority populations, as the
terminology may go, they're wayhigher.
So, like, What do we do whenthere's that much sort of
stacking up from just a causingthe problem?
Jim (12:07):
Yeah, I think unfortunately despair has become a
characteristic of this agegroup.
And so that's just tragic Imean, that's that's something I
didn't expect to see escalatequite like it has even into the
lower grades and So this feelingof worthlessness of hopelessness
Has to be tackled by all of us.
The ability to help peopleunderstand that they are a
(12:29):
person of value, regardless ofwhat the world may be telling
them.
It's so easy to blame everythingon social media.
I mean, that, that seems soeasy.
I think what we have to do, uh,people like you and I, Adam,
have to figure out how toharness that power of social
media and use it to help battlesome of this disparity.
But, the fact that There's somuch there, sometimes doesn't
(12:51):
bring the really chronic casesto the top, they're able to slip
in.
We get bigger and bigger andbigger in all these systems, and
sometimes we forget about theindividual needs.
And those kids and adults slipinto the cracks.
It really worries me.
If we don't continue to talk toeach other, and have ways that
(13:13):
we can share information andshare with each other what we're
worried about, Even asproviders, we're going to be at
a loss on how to tackle this.
It's going to take a unifiedeffort.
Dee (13:23):
Yeah, you've talked about the importance of creating
cohesive systems, so thatchildren don't slip through the
cracks.
And so it goes beyond just eventhe behavioral health care
system, don't you think?
It goes into the schools, itgoes into prevention.
And it goes into interventionand then arming kids with tools.
So what's the solution here?
Partnerships I think are part ofthat solution but what do you
(13:45):
feel like expanding on thatsolution would be?
Jim (13:47):
I think, something like what we're doing.
We have to start a dialogue thateveryone can understand fully
what the problems are.
We can get rid of some of thoseself perceived importances that
we all think that we have.
Let go of that perception.
Understand that we haveservices.
We're not just businesses orthat kind of thing.
That we're actual services.
(14:08):
And that our primary goal, nomatter if it's family and
children's services or Parksideor any of the other wonderful
providers we have in the area,Our goal is not self promotion.
Our goal is to take care of thepeople we're entrusted with.
And we're entrusted with thisarea right now.
And so, when someone isentrusted to you, you care about
(14:29):
what's going on with them, don'tyou?
I mean, you, you have a childthat's born to you and it's
entrusted to you and you spendyour life making sure it's okay.
I'm not sure that all of ouragencies understand that, but
we're gonna get there.
And it starts with these kind ofconversations and some of the
things that we're working ontogether as groups.
I've only been here a shorttime.
(14:49):
Adam and I are kind of the
Adam (14:50):
When did you get here?
I've been here nine months.
Dee (14:51):
Yeah, both of you are from out of state, right?
Jim (14:53):
Yeah, I've been here a little over two years.
oddly enough, when I got here, Iwas told by people who aren't
around much anymore that, thatnone of us work together in
Tulsa.
It just scared me to deathbecause, can't work, you know,
that's not going to besuccessful.
And I have never moved into acommunity where I was so readily
accepted.
Especially in the mental healthenvironment.
Adam (15:15):
Same.
So like, that's the thing, youknow, people joke around here,
they call it"smallsa" becauseeverybody knows everything.
And I found that to be true.
Like, people are very connected.
But there's a lot of good thatcomes from that.
And I have felt welcomed, ofcourse, by you, but by so many
others, because I think this isa community that is very
invested in its own outcomes.
Now we're not as a community asa society, Oklahoma and Tulsa.
(15:35):
We're not immune from a lot ofthese statistics, but I have,
since I've been here, reallyexperienced it as a community
where I, I don't feel thatfamily and children's or
Parkside is out on an island.
It feels like we're at somecenter table, working with the
foundations, working with theagencies, working with the
charities, working withfamilies, working with schools,
(15:55):
working with law enforcement andfirst responders.
It really does feel likeeverybody's in this together.
Is that, has that been yourexperience since you got here?
Jim (16:02):
It's absolutely been the experience I've had.
I met a little over 250 people,in environments just like you
and I setting down.
I think we went and had coffeeor something, sat down, got to
know each other.
And in that first year, therewere over 250 people across this
area that I was able to sit downwith and just kind of lay out
questions to them about how canwe approach this better.
(16:23):
And I found almost to a person,everybody was ready to do
something and create almost awow factor here, that we knew we
could do this in Tulsa.
Adam (16:31):
And when we talk about that, you know, the number of
people, whether they be youngpeople or older, I mean like,
suicide risk is going up, allthese different things, I think
that you know, I've talkedbefore about social determinants
of health, you know like thosethings like if you don't have a
job, your depression is going tobe hard to treat.
If you don't have a meaningfulconnection of people that love
you and care about where you arethat night, If you don't feel
(16:54):
supported and tied in, if yourhealth isn't strong, those are
all things that contribute tothose deaths of despair, because
they're sort of like pieces of aJenga tower.
All of us can balance if we'relike, okay, my health isn't
great, but I've got a supportingfamily, or I don't have a job,
but my family loves me and I'vegot my health.
But the more of those things westart pulling out from under,
(17:16):
The more individuals and thencollectives start to teeter, and
I feel like this is anenvironment in an area that
seems focused on, but I don'tknow if everybody is fully
aware, all the different thingswe need to be doing, because the
prevention of that suicide mightbe ten years and coming, not ten
months and coming or ten daysand coming.
Jim (17:35):
It's exactly right.
It starts very early.
Sometimes The slightest thingcan be the seed.
And so, that's something wereally have to stamp out.
We really gotta help peopleunderstand their value and their
worth.
And I think we do that as acommunity.
I moved here and was told aboutthe terrible homelessness in the
area.
And so I don't know if any ofyou have lived in large cities,
(17:57):
but I just came from the Houstonmarket two years ago.
This is nothing.
And here's the really greatthing.
Tulsa's doing something aboutit.
It's a conversation that'scontinually happening, be it
negative or positive, it's stillout there.
We're talking about it, and it'svery much like what we're trying
to work with, uh, behavioralhealth and mental health.
(18:17):
Adam, it's, if there's not aconversation, we can't get
better.
Adam (18:21):
And I've seen some people, even in this area, seem to make
the faulty connection.
Let's talk homelessness, thathomelessness is a mental health
issue.
And I've seen way too much of acharacterization of individuals
who are without a home as inneed of mental health services.
Now, family and children,others, they're all trying to
work together because we do knowthat there is a lot of what you
(18:41):
would say comorbidity.
Someone without a home may havehad a cascade of things that has
led them to a mental illness.
But, I also think we need to becareful as a city, and as a
county, and as a country, thatwe don't equate the things that
people struggle with with thepresence of mental illness.
Jim (18:58):
Yeah, that's true.
You know, I've been in marketsbefore where if someone didn't
Talk like us, smell like us,look like us, sound like us,
they must be mentally ill.
And that's just not the case.
And so, it can become one moreof those stigmas where people
can't reach out and get theright services.
Adam (19:17):
Or as a society, we can play such a game of Jenga, you
know, there goes your insurance,there goes your housing, there
goes your and at some point,aha, you have a mental illness.
Well, of course, because lookhow many things as a society we
fail collectively on and then weget to that point and people are
suffering and they're in amental state, but that mental
state didn't come withoutcontext and background that sort
(19:39):
of led up to that.
Jim (19:40):
Yeah, exactly.
And the state of mental healthusually mirrors the state of
other health issues throughout.
And so we're not special.
We're just part of the wholeprocess.
And I think as we have, again,as we're starting to have these
conversations and we includepeople from the physical health
side, I know you guys are doingsome great stuff with that.
I'm jealous.
You guys are really way outahead of that.
(20:02):
Um, as we start having thosekinds of conversations, we'll
find that we have good commonground.
I mean, the whole idea ofintegration of medicine is going
to be an incredible, I thinkthat's the next big wave, and I
think that's going to beincredible for our whole country
if we can do that.
I spoke at a conference lastfall about mental health and it
was pediatricians and nurses andstudents and several came up
(20:25):
afterwards and said, that'severy patient I see, you know,
this one pediatrician inparticular said, I think I could
talk to you about the mentalhealth issues of almost every
patient that comes to me.
And these are, you know, fromgood families, from families
that are struggling, it goes allthe way across.
I think if we start talkingabout that though, and we
(20:46):
understand that, Hey, We can beyour partner.
Yeah, that makes a lot ofdifference.
Dee (20:50):
Yeah, it's mind and body.
I mean, there's been so manystudies recently about the mind
connecting to body and, youknow, the gut and how that
affects your health.
And I think the world is juststarting to realize the
connection more deeply.
But you had mentioned earlierabout meeting the needs of
diverse populations.
You know, you may not look likeme or sound like me, but We're
still wanting to meet thoseneeds.
(21:11):
The cultural competencies ofmeeting the different
populations.
How are you going about doingthat, meeting the needs of all
the diverse individuals in ourcommunity?
Jim (21:20):
Well, I think one of the first things you have to do is
be able to have people, in yourteam that other people can hear,
not just listen to, but canhear.
And sometimes that has to dowith backgrounds, it has to do
with their ability to beempathetic, and that may come
from life experiences.
And so that whole You know, wekeep talking about the workforce
(21:40):
shortages and all that, so as wemake those decisions about who
we're going to bring into ourteam, I think we have to be
aware that we need to bringpeople in that can reach across
some of those chasms and be ableto speak to the folks that are
actually coming to the door.
What's the old, the old sayingabout, you know, I just built
it, I don't understand why theydon't come.
We have to figure out what ourfolks need, and that's what we
(22:01):
need to build.
Adam (22:01):
You know, these sort of conversations are ones we should
always lean into, and I think wealways have to lean into them.
With a healthy dose of humility,because we don't look and act
like everybody, we look and actlike ourselves.
And that makes us similar tosome people out of the gate and
dissimilar to others.
And so when I was in school tobecome a psychologist, early
(22:22):
2000s, we had these, what youwould call like, diversity
seminars.
And it's not that long ago, youknow, just over 20 years ago,
and the training was about like,here's how to work with all
these people that aren't likeyou.
And so it was sort of one offs,like, Here's how to work with
the Native American populationbecause they're not like you and
here's how to work with theblack population They're not
like you and it was just sort ofthese one off Like bite sized
(22:44):
Lunchables of how to work withpeople and that used to be what
we talked about We talked aboutcultural competence and I really
feel like that's importanttraining I don't mean to demean
the training, but that's notreally gonna open doors And I
also know that the task can't beOnly get services from people
like you because number one,that's nonsensical and it
(23:05):
doesn't promote that sort ofwe're all in this together as
well.
And I think that's one of thethings that is this huge
opportunity, but also this hugeneed is what do we do as
agencies, but also as a societyto make sure that we honor and
celebrate the differences andrecognize that all of us have
different needs and differentpeople groups and different
experiences and all of thosethings require level of
(23:27):
competence.
Lest I misunderstand somethingas a mental health issue that
might truly just be a culturalfactor or a trust factor or so
many other things that wherejust the risk of confusion and
misunderstanding with each othergoes up, the more the
differences are there.
Jim (23:45):
I agree, I mean, I think the one thing, uh, and Dee asked
this earlier, I think the onething that shows up more often
than not are the people that arecoming to you, and again, we
talk about the folks that, thatdon't look like me, they don't
sound like me, but you know whatthey see?
They are able to see empathy andcompassion.
It's the part of the humanexperience that seems to
transcend that.
(24:05):
It has to be real.
Yeah.
And it has to be genuine, andnowhere more so than in
behavioral health and mentalhealth.
There's no, you, you can't justlook at someone and diagnose
them.
There's no wound to see.
There's no arm to set.
There's no cast to put on.
You have to be able to beempathetic and understanding.
(24:27):
And most of us have been throughsomething.
Most of us that work with peoplehave been through something.
And if you can capture that inyour heart for a few minutes.
As you're looking at someone, Iguarantee you'll find a place to
connect.
And that's the people we have toget into our groups and help
them understand this.
Dee (24:44):
Yeah, it's people that are able to be vulnerable.
And people that are servingpeople that are vulnerable.
It's that vulnerability that ourhuman nature tends to want to
go, Ooh, I can't do that.
Adam (24:55):
So there's so many directions I want to go with
this.
And you made me think of anotherone.
There's this, marvelous,marvelous book, and I think this
is where I got it from, but itmight be somewhere else, some
social psychologist, but I thinkit was Daniel Pink, The Power of
Regret.
Highly recommended, but one ofthe things that, comes up in one
of these books is, do you knowwhat happens when people display
more vulnerability?
(25:15):
Their likability factor goes up.
So while we think thatvulnerability, actually exposes
us, so we don't want to show it,over and over again, when people
actually get vulnerable And say,hey, and either share a little
bit of what's going on with themor what they're struggling with.
The people that hear thatvulnerability tend to, on the
whole, like you more, not less.
(25:37):
And I think it's so contrary tohuman nature because we're like,
well, lock that crap downbecause then, you know, no one
ever can hurt you.
Unless you're Brene Brown, ofcourse.
Right, of course, Brene Brown.
Um, I would love to be just likeBrene Brown.
But, for the rest of us, itdoesn't come easy to show that
vulnerability.
Mm hmm.
And I think that that's a reallyimportant piece in this, is that
we all have to sort of go first,right?
(25:59):
That's vulnerability.
Right.
Because if I reciprocate, great,I reciprocated, but you showed
vulnerability.
One of the things I want tostate about mental health is
it's not so long ago that wholepeople groups were on the
receiving end of experiments andwere on the experiments of broad
categorization.
Some of that persists today,hopefully the worst and most
malevolent of it has been ridfrom our society, but there are
(26:22):
a lot of individuals in thiscommunity and so many others who
remember those things and theyare gatekeepers.
And they are rightfully,rightfully, as they should be,
protective and cautious aboutengaging with large systems of
care because large systems ofcare haven't always been
careful.
(26:42):
And I think that that's one ofthose things that we have to
wrestle with when we talk aboutcompetence is recognizing the
context of why people aresuspicious of care and why
people aren't always open armswhen we say, here we are, let's
help.
Because there is a long history,even in an amazing country like
the one we're in, of people notalways being, treated and
(27:03):
received, even by the mentalhealth system in the best
possible way.
Jim (27:06):
Yeah, I think I would even take it a step further.
I mean, I think I would issue achallenge.
I mean, you and I have had thisconversation several times.
But, the leaders in thiscommunity, uh, especially in
mental health, behavioralhealth, and, um, Interventions
have got to display that.
We've got to get over ourselvesand become real.
And, you know, it didn't matterwhether I was wearing a coat and
(27:27):
tie or whether I was up there inmy jeans.
At some of the hospitals thatI've had where we've had
adolescents, as long as I wasreal and was myself, I was just
as accepted by them regardlessof those kind of things that
paint the picture.
Instead, they're able to seeThrough your words and through
your actions what you're doing.
I think we should challenge theother leaders in the area Oh, I
love to get over it get overthemselves Your bottom line is
(27:51):
going to be fine.
Quit worrying about it Let'stake care of some people and and
if those of us that are in theseleadership roles will say I'll
do whatever it takes to makesure that the people that are
entrusted to us get taken careof I think we're fine
Adam (28:04):
What is your challenge?
So you're like hey get over it.
All right, we get over it.
Yeah, and then What are weasking ourselves and others to
do?
What is that?
What is the concrete, like,okay?
I'm ready to buy what you'relaying down, Jim.
What are you laying down?
Jim (28:16):
Yeah, let's come together.
Let's talk about, in real terms,in truth, let's talk about what
our real needs are here.
Not just what we think we needto do, but what do we really
need to do?
Let's forget the stereotypes ofwhat each of us does.
Let's find our lane that we'regreat at and make that a
superhighway instead of a bunchof roads that are crossing each
other.
Adam (28:36):
Show up.
Jim (28:37):
Show up, sit down, be honest.
Let's talk.
Adam (28:41):
And I want to sound like I'm going to contradict myself,
but I hope I'm not.
I've also seen, here andeverywhere else, that all these
areas and people groups andgatekeepers and again, we're
talking different ethnic groups,we're talking the LGBTQ
population, we're talking peoplewith developmental disabilities,
I mean like, I'm talking acrossthe gamut, so I'm not talking
about just one group, but overand over, what I've seen is
(29:02):
when, whether it's myself orsomeone else, when people enter
space authentically and withsome humility, And ears open,
mouth closed, which can comeharder for you and me.
Uh, people are usually happierthere.
I, I don't find massive distrusteverywhere.
What I find is you stop andlisten, you claim the areas, we
(29:24):
as a system and we as an agency,we've let you down and we're
gonna do better.
People are pretty graceful aboutthat sort of a thing and mostly
are.
I find happy that we're there tohelp.
Jim (29:34):
Yeah, I think you're exactly right.
I think we've just got to bestraight up.
I mean, I hate to use this as anexample, but you and I were very
straight up the first time wemet.
I mean, we talked about what ourgoals and ambitions were, and
the things that were important,and it all came back to how are
we going to be able to make adifference with the people.
That again, I hate to overusethe word but they're that are
(29:54):
entrusted to us.
Adam (29:55):
I think the coffee with the Hyperverbal that stuff it
really helped us go straight tothe point.
Jim (30:00):
Yeah, the big cookie was what did it for me?
Adam (30:01):
Oh, yeah, the cookie That was the coffee shop on cherry
street.
Yeah, that was delicious coffeeand cookies
Jim (30:08):
and we're sorry We were there for hours folks, right?
But that very thing is veryvaluable because You just didn't
sit there and talk about familyand children's services.
I just didn't sit there and talkabout Parkside.
What we talked about was thethings that were important to
us, the life that had brought ushere this far.
The things that cause us to wantto take care of people and to
help them get to a better place.
(30:29):
And that was what the connectionwas.
And I think what we find is thatmost people in our line of work,
especially, have that as a core.
That's how we got into this.
Adam (30:38):
Anybody who came to this line of work to get rich, I'm a
little confused by your tactics.
Yeah, me too.
Most people come to this fieldfor the right reasons.
And we have to then return thatwith not just coming to the
right tables, but making sure webuild organizations that can be
sustainable and do supportcareers because we don't want
people to have to bounce whenthey can't pay their bills or
(31:00):
can't find that sustainability.
And I want to stay with this,but I also want to kind of get
into some of those nuts andbolts that I think are affecting
some of those things right now.
Yeah.
Should I go there?
Yeah, let's do it.
Alright.
No, let's do that.
I read another stat today, andit was from a conference last
Thursday, and it went state bystate and talked about since the
unwinding, so during, duringCOVID, everybody raised the
(31:24):
floor of opportunity where moreand more people could be on
Medicaid, right?
And of course, we've expandedMedicaid this, that, or the
other.
What we're talking about is themechanism.
that provides that support forsystems like Parkside and us
because, the vast majority ofclients we serve have Medicaid
or no insurance.
Yes.
Are you similar boat?
Yeah, we're very similar.
(31:44):
And I saw the states color codedbased on how far enrollment has
dropped in Medicaid right now.
There's been such an unwindingand Oklahoma is right up there.
We're number one, tied, 25 to 30percent reduction in people
getting enrolled in Medicaid.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat go into that, certainly
(32:05):
some of it unwinding.
Eligibility is an importantconsideration.
But we're also seeing things,you know, like the transitions
with managed care and so manyother things that is just sort
of swirling people up.
And my fear right now is that asmuch as we're all agreeing that
we've got to do something andshow up and have these
conversations, we also needsustainable ways of providing
(32:25):
support and ensuring that theagencies are all able to do the
things we're tasked with doing.
And for my part, I'm a littleworried about some of that
happening both statewide andnationwide right now.
Jim (32:35):
So here's what I do know, Adam, is that most of the time
we haven't done a good job ofportraying our story of helping
the people that can make betterdecisions really understand
that.
As an example, when I got here,like I said, a little over two
years ago, one of the truths AndI'm using the quotes because one
of the truths I was told is that
Adam (32:54):
For listeners, he used air quotes.
Jim (32:55):
Yeah, I used air quotes.
Um, you will never be able toget an increase in the base
rates in Medicaid forpsychiatric hospitalization.
And I said, well, I, first off,I don't buy that.
They said, no, it hasn'thappened in 16 years.
Let me say that again.
Adam (33:16):
Was that dog years?
Jim (33:16):
16 years, I wish.
Um, and so You know what we did?
We just took the books and laidthem out about what it costs to
take care of kids, specifically,the very best that we possibly
can.
And an amazing group oflegislators worked really hard
that year.
And, and I couldn't even beginto list the shout outs I would
(33:39):
have to do.
And Between what was donethrough the state agencies and
the pressure of thelegislatures, we had the first
increase in 16 years in Medicaidrates.
Because you were real.
We were real.
I don't think the state's gonebankrupt.
I think we're still okay.
That's what I'm hearing.
That increase helped us do abetter job of taking care of
(34:01):
people and taking care of thepeople that take care of people,
which I know is very importantto you as well.
And so, so all that to say Wegotta do a better job of getting
our story out there.
Of how we need support.
Adam (34:14):
One of the pivots we're gonna do, um, and again, I wish
I could claim that I inventedall these ideas, but I'm just
finding them everywhere andthen, um, you know, what did I
say?
Creativity is knowing how toconceal your sources.
That's exactly right.
Uh, we're gonna, in ourmarketing communications and in
our outreach, We're going toemphasize less and less our
number of services.
Because we've always been like,look, we've done this many
(34:35):
services, but one of the ahasrecently is that if people,
funders, lawmakers, if theythink what they're funding is
our ability to provide moreservices, and yet suicide's
going up, all these things aregoing up, it's not really going
to feel like money well spent.
And we are spending right now,nationwide, more on behavioral
health than we ever have.
(34:56):
We're making a massiveinvestment.
Um, like in the last 30 years,there's been like 15.
7 billion just in private equitypushed into behavioral health.
I mean, it's, it is justamazing.
But the fear is, is that toomuch of that is going into
number of services provided.
And the pivot that we're goingto start doing in our outreach,
and I think would be a huge ahaas a community is if we really
(35:20):
did.
pivot from number of servicesprovided to people taken care of
instead of two of how are wetaking care of people because
these funding sources thingslike CCBHC enhancements and
inpatient rate If we couldreally change that conversation
to we've got to invest like thisbecause that's how we take care
of people, I think there's a lotof this would make a lot more
(35:43):
sense.
Jim (35:44):
It is a mind shift that has to happen.
I mean, I've got such an amazingboard that supports me at
Parkside.
And when I was asked about mycensus one day, because before I
got here, many of the floors atParkside were closed down or
they didn't have enough staff toreally build those up.
We fixed that issue, but I hadto explain to them what the
(36:04):
census is.
So the census is not how manypeople are in the hospital right
now.
To me, the census is how manypeople came to our door that we
weren't able to help that dayand why.
That's the census.
If we would all attack it inthat manner, So that changes
everything though because no onethinks that way and when you
find a principle like that Thatfeels good and you realize that
(36:25):
no one else is doing it that wayYou're probably doing it right
Adam (36:28):
and I don't want to artificially bring us around
full circle to where we startedBut when you think about zero
suicide and the Academy and thefocusing on people I feel like
one of the biggest opportunitiesin front of us right now is I
mean like we don't have toconvince Society to be against
suicide, right?
I think they're sort of againstit, right?
but How do we invite people intothat conversation and equip them
(36:50):
with the resources and awarenessso that they know how to help
us, but we know also how to helpthem?
Because I think that everybodyagrees, it's like, who's for
world peace?
Raise your hand.
We're all for it.
We're all for zero suicide.
But back to how we engage withthe community.
Is there anything that we needto be doing or talking about
that we're not?
As it relates to suicide, zerosuicide, young people, all the
(37:13):
groups being affected by that.
Is there something we need topull back around in this
conversation to make sure thatwe don't just talk about all
this, but there are some actionsor things we can lean into?
Jim (37:24):
Yeah, I think it's important for us to be very
inclusive of the people in ourcommunity.
On the Zero Suicide Academy, Iknow we both have some extra
seats at the academy, and so wehave people coming from the
Tulsa Police, I'm reading this,Tulsa Police Department, Tulsa
Health Department, the city,Healthy Minds, Tulsa Girls Home,
Tulsa Public Schools, CherokeeNation.
(37:45):
It's great.
Dee (37:46):
It's all these great partnerships.
It's like, a community rallyingaround a similar idea of
prevention and how to get thosetools into people's hands.
Jim (37:53):
That's it.
It's a compelling story.
It's something that, like yousaid, it's hard for anyone to
not be wanting to be part ofthat.
But the mobilization, sometimesit takes those of us that aren't
as scared of it, that understandit's a problem, to get out in
front and help pull people withus.
And I think those conversationsare going to be great.
(38:15):
We have to involve people in thework though.
Yeah.
And so Tulsa's prime for thisright now.
Shame on us if we don't takeadvantage of this.
Adam (38:21):
A hundred percent, because at the end of the day, I've
never been in a community thatis as all in this together,
locked arms together.
I don't feel like Family andChildren's Services, and I know,
I know you don't feel likeParkside is out and fighting
this on our own.
I feel like this is a communitythat recognizes that we're all
here to help and we definitelyhave some of the things.
(38:42):
We can bring some entrees to thetable, right?
We're not just bringing thesilverware or the, you know, the
drinks like we're, we'rebringing some entrees with the
services we do and the ways wecan engage.
But it does feel like a bigpotluck of people, whether it is
civic agencies, Healthy Minds,uh, first responders, the
tribes, everybody seems to be asconnected as any community I've
(39:04):
ever, been a part of.
about doing this together.
Jim (39:07):
Yeah.
Last Friday night, I was able toattend the Oklahoma Academy
celebration, uh, policycelebration, and no less than a
couple of dozen people came upto me and ask how things were
going, they recognized thatpiece of it, that how important
it is.
And I'm not talking about peoplewho are in healthcare.
I'm talking about people who arein all walks of life that we've
just run into, or that haveheard our message, or have
(39:30):
worked with us in some way tosupport us.
But there's an interest and adesire to make things better and
I think that's what sets Tulsaabout besides the fact that
everybody Here's just prettynice.
Adam (39:40):
They're pretty nice
Jim (39:41):
You know what?
I mean?
Yeah, and then on top of thatyou have people who really want
to leave a better world Yeah,and so Let's help.
Dee (39:49):
Yeah, it's a community helping each other.
And my big takeaway is Get realas a provider, your kind of call
to action, but also theindividuals wanting care, they
have to get real about what theyneed too, about recognizing that
it's okay to ask for help, thatit's okay to get the help that
they need, that there are peoplethat are vulnerable and are out
there willing to help them whenthey're most vulnerable.
Adam (40:10):
I think that's an incredibly important point, and
that's, again, one we dotogether because until it's cool
for everybody to get mentalhealth services, we still have
work to do.
And so stigma has dropped a lot,right?
I mean, I've talked before,COVID made it okay to be
anxious, and that actually wasone of the pleasant byproducts
of COVID is that it was okay tobe anxious and get care, but
there's still so manyindividuals who feel that stigma
(40:33):
and that fear that we still havea lot of work to do, even as so
much stigma has been brokendown, Jim, I think you were
going to say something on this.
Jim (40:38):
No, I, I completely agree.
Let me give you an example ofhow we can work together.
So we were supposed to go to ameeting, people from your place,
people from my place, otherplaces in town, we were supposed
to go to a big meeting and, andit got canceled.
And instead, we went to arestaurant and we talked and we
said, what's the biggest issuewe've got trying to help our
folks?
And it was about access.
(40:59):
It's so difficult, even as hardas we try.
You guys do a lot of stuff.
We do too, to try to make iteasier for people to find us and
to be able to access the system.
We came up with the idea thatthe paperwork is so tedious,
right?
Dee (41:13):
That is a barrier.
Jim (41:14):
So you go to your place, you fill out all the paperwork,
and then And your person seesthe client and says, whoops,
we've got an intense problemhere.
We need to get you over toParkside.
They come to my house and theygot to fill out all the same
paperwork.
Dee (41:28):
So needs to be a systemic change there.
Jim (41:31):
We're talking about four or five groups in town sat down and
said, let's do something aboutthis.
And over the course of time,we're working on the fact that
next month, I think we're goingto roll out a centralized intake
process.
Dee (41:42):
Oh, wow.
And so exciting.
Jim (41:44):
You can enter this room of care.
This room of help from manydifferent doors and you fill out
the paperwork and it's going tocross over.
Adam (41:52):
Interoperability, who would have thought?
Jim (41:54):
Who would have thought?
Adam (41:55):
Right.
Jim (41:55):
And it's happening right here.
And this is something I thinkthat people that get involved
with us, that work with ouragencies, that work with the
things we're trying to do aregoing to be really proud of down
the road.
I think Tulsa can make adifference and show folks how to
do it.
Adam (42:09):
This is a great conversation, Jim.
I'm hoping you'll, come back andwe do it again.
Jim (42:13):
Absolutely.
Anytime.
Dee (42:14):
It's been so fun being real with both of you.
Thank you for joining us today.
Jim (42:17):
Thank you for the invitation.
I appreciate it.
Great, great stuff.
Yeah, it's really good.
I enjoyed that.
I almost forgot there was a micup in my face.
Yeah, I did too.
That was good.
Very good.
Dee (42:32):
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(43:13):
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Until next time.
One of the things I want to state about mental health
(00:01):
there is a long history, even inan amazing country like the one
we're in, of people not alwaysbeing, treated and received,
even by the mental health systemin the best possible way.
Jim (00:11):
I think I would issue a challenge.
Adam (00:13):
Jim.
What are you laying down?
Jim (00:13):
Yeah, let's come together.
Let's talk about, in real terms,in truth, let's talk about what
our real needs are here.
Not just what we think we needto do, but what do we really
need to do?
Let's forget the stereotypes ofwhat each of us does.
Let's find our lane that we'regreat at and make that a
superhighway instead of a bunchof roads that are crossing each
other.
Dee (00:34):
Welcome to today's episode of OK State of Mind, a family
and children's services podcast.
I'm your host Dee Harris, andtoday I'm talking with two
incredible behavioral healthleaders in Tulsa, Adam
Andreessen, the CEO of Familyand Children's Services, and Jim
Serratt, the CEO of Parkside, apsychiatric hospital that plays
a pivotal role in Tulsa's mentalhealth landscape.
(00:56):
Today's conversation isn't justabout data and strategies.
It's about partnerships and thepower of community coming
together to make a realdifference.
So whether you're a mentalhealth professional, a community
leader, or simply someone whojust cares deeply about the
mental well being of others,this episode is for you.
So welcome Adam and Jim.
(01:16):
I'm excited to talk about thispartnership, especially the Zero
Suicide Academy.
I mean, I know there's a lot ofsystems that have brought zero
suicide into their environmentsand really has helped with the
prevention piece of that.
So, why was it important tobring this academy to Tulsa?
Jim (01:32):
So first off, thanks for having me guys.
This is really cool for all ofus to get to sit down and talk
about some really importantstuff.
Zero suicide, was fairly new tome as an organization.
But the suicide aspect of it, ofcourse, is very personal.
Uh, very dear friend of mine,uh, lost his child while we were
both working as CEOs ofbehavioral health hospitals.
(01:53):
And so we should know thisstuff, right?
We should be able to.
figure that out way ahead oftime, but he lost his daughter
very early on and so we spent alot of time talking about it.
And so it doesn't, uh, it neverleaves any of us when that kind
of impact happens.
And so when one of our staffmembers came to me and said,
there's, there's this idea, thisis zero suicide, which sounds
(02:16):
just the words itself.
Sounds like we ought to all beheading that way, right?
Right.
Okay.
So, she brought that in and webegan to explore it and knew we
needed an outstanding partner tohelp us pull that off.
And, couldn't think of anybodyI'd rather work with.
So, that came about and wereally appreciate the
opportunity to share thisadventure here in the Tulsa
(02:37):
area.
Adam (02:37):
So, I was really excited to hear about the Academy.
Everywhere I've been, you know,Zero Suicide is thankfully a
common thing in the UnitedStates, and I, I think it's sort
of that best and worst of bothworlds because on the one hand,
it's got a lot of attention andon the other hand, suicide keeps
going up.
And so all the things that we'redoing I wouldn't say they're not
(02:59):
helping.
I think they are helping, butwhatever is happening more
broadly, it really is,continuing to leave its mark,
and of course COVID and allthese things kind of added on to
it, and so it's just this thingthat we really need to push into
more.
So while I've heard about zerosuicide, the academy and that
next level of bringing thattraining into the area.
(03:21):
That was something I was realexcited about when approached
about the podcast.
And it was of course, uh, agreat opportunity to learn a lot
of what both Parkside's up toand now what we're doing
together.
Jim (03:30):
Yeah, I think zero suicides on everybody's mind everywhere.
And they've been talking aboutit a long time.
The academy was something newfor me in that we can take a
small group of people,relatively small group of people
in the community and use that asthe catalyst to create really
strong system wide change whereit comes to the forefront rather
than the grief after the fact.
(03:52):
We're going to do somethingproactive about it.
And so to do that, you have tohave the tools to do it
correctly.
And this academy sets us up withfolks who are prepared to come
in and take a small group ofpeople, tune them up, get them
ready to go, and create the kindof change that we need in the
Tulsa area.
Because you're right, we allknow this, right?
You can't pick up a newspaper,you can't listen to any radio
(04:15):
program without hearing aboutthis severe problem that we have
in this area, and yet, it keepsgrowing.
Adam (04:21):
Yeah, so, at Parkside, I think a lot of people know what
Parkside is and does, but Idon't know that most people even
understand, you know, what is apsychiatric hospital in 2024.
How long do people stay?
What happens inside it?
Because I think that for us tohave this conversation, sort of
that continuum of, you know,everyday life, schools, other
lines of defense, and then youcome with family, children's and
(04:43):
Parkside.
How does Parkside fit into thispuzzle of what people go through
and how, how we help?
Because I think that's animportant part of the
conversation.
Jim (04:51):
Yeah, it is Adam.
Thank you.
So, I even have staff membersthat when they come to work are
not real sure exactly everythingthat we do.
They just know that we have totake care of people, primarily
keep them safe.
It's evolved over the years.
You know, we used to think aboutlong term care in psychiatric
hospitals.
And that's not really our roleanymore because all the folks
like family and children's andall the area folks have Come to
(05:13):
the table so strong, and there'sbeen so much investment in the
wraparound services and in thethings that will help people
stay strong, that now what ourjob is, I explain this to our
staff this way, our job is tocatch.
So we're that last line ofdefense that catch.
You probably don't think aboutParkside or us.
(05:34):
Except maybe on a Friday nightat 11 o'clock when something
really bad has happened orsomething has been said, uh,
whether it's among your familyor school or any other setting,
a church.
And so, we realize there's aproblem and so there is a place
that we can keep people safe.
Do comprehensive assessmentwork, help people understand
where they are, keep them safe,and get them ready to get them
(05:57):
right back out to you guys.
Adam (05:58):
And I think that's something that is a huge part of
what we do as well, and I wantto come back to that for a
second because family andchildren's, you know, anybody
that listens probably tired ofhearing the story, but we came
to exist about a hundred twoyears ago because women and
children were often the onesfalling as, you know, men at
that point in the traditionalhome were, out and about in the
oil rush, and they were beingpulled off to this, that, or the
(06:20):
other, sometimes dying,sometimes moving.
And so people were, your words,falling, and we, that's how we
came to be, kind of lifting themup.
And that sort of lifting up thefloor of people's experience,
that prevention and response tocrisis is still so core to
everything we do.
And you hope that thatprevention comes into it.
Now what does Parkside do thatwould be like, okay, you catch
(06:43):
people, but then how does thatfeed into prevention?
Or does Parkside do anyprevention?
Jim (06:48):
Yeah, so the second phase of that is we, so I said we
catch.
So, then we lift.
And so, the job is to put asmany tools in the toolbox of,
especially these kids that we'reworking with, to help people
have something when they walkout the door.
From the second someone feelslike they need to be safe, they
need to come to an environmentwhere they can be safe, where
(07:09):
authorities even feel like theyneed to be somewhere safe, we
begin to work on the idea ofthem not being with us.
So it's a little different kindof process.
We're not looking
Adam (07:19):
You mean discharge, not being with us.
Jim (07:21):
We're not, we're not looking for, um, you know, uh,
Long-term customers, if youwill.
That's terrible to put it thatway, but that's, that's what it
is.
So we catch, we lift, and thenreally we push, we help get
people to the right place.
I think that's the mostimportant thing that we do
because people don't need tostay in a psychiatric hospital.
And that's why the partnerships.
(07:43):
that we've developed with youguys especially and with others
in the community becomes soimportant because we have to
have worthy partners on theother side to be able to move
people to effectively and the,the question I always get asked
is, what's the average length ofstay at the hospital?
Adam (07:58):
What is the average length of stay?
Jim (07:59):
It's seven to 10 days.
And so that means it could beanything from five to a couple
of weeks, depending becauseWe've really pushed into this
individualized treatmentplanning.
And so that's not something thatwas always there in the past of
psychiatric care.
there were a lot of cookiecutters work.
But now, there's no set pattern.
(08:20):
It has to do with the patient,where they're at, where the
family's at, where the supportsystems are at, because they've
got to be released into a verysafe environment.
So that's
Adam (08:31):
If we were to compare this to like Big Box Hospital, is
what Parkside does, is it's sortof like an emergency department,
patches you up, gets you backout on the road.
connects you to some other levelof care so that you get that
follow up?
Or is there a different analogy?
How would, how would youdescribe it if you would compare
it to what people are broadlyfamiliar with in the healthcare
world?
Jim (08:50):
Yeah, it's very much like an emergency room for
psychiatric care.
we work very closely with thearea emergency rooms as a matter
of fact.
And so, we supply thatstabilizations.
We're like the ICU after asurgery, you know, you go into
the SICU for a little while.
And so it's, we assume that'sacute care.
(09:11):
And so that's what we focus on.
We'll also do some long termcare if that's what's indicated,
but that has to be somethingthat's kind of agreed on by
everyone.
So that acute stabilization, weuse the word stabilization a
lot.
We get folks to a better placethan they are when they come in.
So the most important thing wedo is get them ready to be
successful with you or withother outside providers because
(09:34):
people don't initially that haveto be hospitalized really want
to think about the next step.
They think, I'm going to be inthe hospital a couple of days,
my child's going to be in thehospital a couple of days,
everything's going to be okay.
But the fact of the matter is,we try to therapeutically
introduce the idea of beinginvolved in treatment, the idea
of being involved in gettingbetter, owning some of that, and
(09:57):
being so ready to do that whenthey leave that we make that
process easy so that they'll becompliant and The funny thing is
most of the people to dischargethat I talked to The first thing
I say to them is I don't everwant to see you again, and I
mean it sincerely and so that'sbeen the 35 year career of
(10:17):
trying to work my way out of abusiness, work my way out of
this, and it just hasn'thappened.
Adam (10:23):
You continue to suffer from relevance, uh, as do we all
right now.
And I think that the thingthat's so challenging is we all
would love to work ourselves outof this job, and yet, I'm seeing
some pretty startlingstatistics, and I've been in
this field a while, and you'vebeen in this field a while, but
some of the statistics I'mseeing on suicide and other
deaths of despair are prettystartling, even when I thought
(10:46):
that I was hard to shock, andone of the ones that caught my
attention, I was at a conferencelast week that really caught my
attention, you take students,people in school right now,
kiddos, students, teenagers,adolescents, middle schoolers,
so on, 40% of students rightnow, we're not just talking
about have some distress or somesadness.
40 percent of studentsnationwide right now have
(11:08):
chronic sadness or hopelessness,persistent.
And that just blows my mind Sowe're doing a lot we can do on
patching people up, getting themback out there.
But I really am struggling withwhat are we doing as a society
if 40 percent of young people.
who are supposed to be the mostoptimistic on the planet, 40
percent of them are experiencingpersistent helplessness,
(11:31):
hopelessness, sadness.
How do we pull ourselves out ofthat?
I'm sort of going a littlephilosophical here.
What do we do?
Because we can patch people upand patch people up, but if
we're really just stacking up asociety that is 40 percent sad
and hopeless.
And by the way, some of thosestatistics are even worse when
you start breaking down peoplegroups.
The LGBTQ plus population is wayhigher than that.
(11:53):
A lot of the different, ethnicand minority populations, as the
terminology may go, they're wayhigher.
So, like, What do we do whenthere's that much sort of
stacking up from just a causingthe problem?
Jim (12:07):
Yeah, I think unfortunately despair has become a
characteristic of this agegroup.
And so that's just tragic Imean, that's that's something I
didn't expect to see escalatequite like it has even into the
lower grades and So this feelingof worthlessness of hopelessness
Has to be tackled by all of us.
The ability to help peopleunderstand that they are a
(12:29):
person of value, regardless ofwhat the world may be telling
them.
It's so easy to blame everythingon social media.
I mean, that, that seems soeasy.
I think what we have to do, uh,people like you and I, Adam,
have to figure out how toharness that power of social
media and use it to help battlesome of this disparity.
But, the fact that There's somuch there, sometimes doesn't
(12:51):
bring the really chronic casesto the top, they're able to slip
in.
We get bigger and bigger andbigger in all these systems, and
sometimes we forget about theindividual needs.
And those kids and adults slipinto the cracks.
It really worries me.
If we don't continue to talk toeach other, and have ways that
(13:13):
we can share information andshare with each other what we're
worried about, Even asproviders, we're going to be at
a loss on how to tackle this.
It's going to take a unifiedeffort.
Dee (13:23):
Yeah, you've talked about the importance of creating
cohesive systems, so thatchildren don't slip through the
cracks.
And so it goes beyond just eventhe behavioral health care
system, don't you think?
It goes into the schools, itgoes into prevention.
And it goes into interventionand then arming kids with tools.
So what's the solution here?
Partnerships I think are part ofthat solution but what do you
(13:45):
feel like expanding on thatsolution would be?
Jim (13:47):
I think, something like what we're doing.
We have to start a dialogue thateveryone can understand fully
what the problems are.
We can get rid of some of thoseself perceived importances that
we all think that we have.
Let go of that perception.
Understand that we haveservices.
We're not just businesses orthat kind of thing.
That we're actual services.
(14:08):
And that our primary goal, nomatter if it's family and
children's services or Parksideor any of the other wonderful
providers we have in the area,Our goal is not self promotion.
Our goal is to take care of thepeople we're entrusted with.
And we're entrusted with thisarea right now.
And so, when someone isentrusted to you, you care about
(14:29):
what's going on with them, don'tyou?
I mean, you, you have a childthat's born to you and it's
entrusted to you and you spendyour life making sure it's okay.
I'm not sure that all of ouragencies understand that, but
we're gonna get there.
And it starts with these kind ofconversations and some of the
things that we're working ontogether as groups.
I've only been here a shorttime.
(14:49):
Adam and I are kind of the
Adam (14:50):
When did you get here?
I've been here nine months.
Dee (14:51):
Yeah, both of you are from out of state, right?
Jim (14:53):
Yeah, I've been here a little over two years.
oddly enough, when I got here, Iwas told by people who aren't
around much anymore that, thatnone of us work together in
Tulsa.
It just scared me to deathbecause, can't work, you know,
that's not going to besuccessful.
And I have never moved into acommunity where I was so readily
accepted.
Especially in the mental healthenvironment.
Adam (15:15):
Same.
So like, that's the thing, youknow, people joke around here,
they call it"smallsa" becauseeverybody knows everything.
And I found that to be true.
Like, people are very connected.
But there's a lot of good thatcomes from that.
And I have felt welcomed, ofcourse, by you, but by so many
others, because I think this isa community that is very
invested in its own outcomes.
Now we're not as a community asa society, Oklahoma and Tulsa.
(15:35):
We're not immune from a lot ofthese statistics, but I have,
since I've been here, reallyexperienced it as a community
where I, I don't feel thatfamily and children's or
Parkside is out on an island.
It feels like we're at somecenter table, working with the
foundations, working with theagencies, working with the
charities, working withfamilies, working with schools,
(15:55):
working with law enforcement andfirst responders.
It really does feel likeeverybody's in this together.
Is that, has that been yourexperience since you got here?
Jim (16:02):
It's absolutely been the experience I've had.
I met a little over 250 people,in environments just like you
and I setting down.
I think we went and had coffeeor something, sat down, got to
know each other.
And in that first year, therewere over 250 people across this
area that I was able to sit downwith and just kind of lay out
questions to them about how canwe approach this better.
(16:23):
And I found almost to a person,everybody was ready to do
something and create almost awow factor here, that we knew we
could do this in Tulsa.
Adam (16:31):
And when we talk about that, you know, the number of
people, whether they be youngpeople or older, I mean like,
suicide risk is going up, allthese different things, I think
that you know, I've talkedbefore about social determinants
of health, you know like thosethings like if you don't have a
job, your depression is going tobe hard to treat.
If you don't have a meaningfulconnection of people that love
you and care about where you arethat night, If you don't feel
(16:54):
supported and tied in, if yourhealth isn't strong, those are
all things that contribute tothose deaths of despair, because
they're sort of like pieces of aJenga tower.
All of us can balance if we'relike, okay, my health isn't
great, but I've got a supportingfamily, or I don't have a job,
but my family loves me and I'vegot my health.
But the more of those things westart pulling out from under,
(17:16):
The more individuals and thencollectives start to teeter, and
I feel like this is anenvironment in an area that
seems focused on, but I don'tknow if everybody is fully
aware, all the different thingswe need to be doing, because the
prevention of that suicide mightbe ten years and coming, not ten
months and coming or ten daysand coming.
Jim (17:35):
It's exactly right.
It starts very early.
Sometimes The slightest thingcan be the seed.
And so, that's something wereally have to stamp out.
We really gotta help peopleunderstand their value and their
worth.
And I think we do that as acommunity.
I moved here and was told aboutthe terrible homelessness in the
area.
And so I don't know if any ofyou have lived in large cities,
(17:57):
but I just came from the Houstonmarket two years ago.
This is nothing.
And here's the really greatthing.
Tulsa's doing something aboutit.
It's a conversation that'scontinually happening, be it
negative or positive, it's stillout there.
We're talking about it, and it'svery much like what we're trying
to work with, uh, behavioralhealth and mental health.
(18:17):
Adam, it's, if there's not aconversation, we can't get
better.
Adam (18:21):
And I've seen some people, even in this area, seem to make
the faulty connection.
Let's talk homelessness, thathomelessness is a mental health
issue.
And I've seen way too much of acharacterization of individuals
who are without a home as inneed of mental health services.
Now, family and children,others, they're all trying to
work together because we do knowthat there is a lot of what you
(18:41):
would say comorbidity.
Someone without a home may havehad a cascade of things that has
led them to a mental illness.
But, I also think we need to becareful as a city, and as a
county, and as a country, thatwe don't equate the things that
people struggle with with thepresence of mental illness.
Jim (18:58):
Yeah, that's true.
You know, I've been in marketsbefore where if someone didn't
Talk like us, smell like us,look like us, sound like us,
they must be mentally ill.
And that's just not the case.
And so, it can become one moreof those stigmas where people
can't reach out and get theright services.
Adam (19:17):
Or as a society, we can play such a game of Jenga, you
know, there goes your insurance,there goes your housing, there
goes your and at some point,aha, you have a mental illness.
Well, of course, because lookhow many things as a society we
fail collectively on and then weget to that point and people are
suffering and they're in amental state, but that mental
state didn't come withoutcontext and background that sort
(19:39):
of led up to that.
Jim (19:40):
Yeah, exactly.
And the state of mental healthusually mirrors the state of
other health issues throughout.
And so we're not special.
We're just part of the wholeprocess.
And I think as we have, again,as we're starting to have these
conversations and we includepeople from the physical health
side, I know you guys are doingsome great stuff with that.
I'm jealous.
You guys are really way outahead of that.
(20:02):
Um, as we start having thosekinds of conversations, we'll
find that we have good commonground.
I mean, the whole idea ofintegration of medicine is going
to be an incredible, I thinkthat's the next big wave, and I
think that's going to beincredible for our whole country
if we can do that.
I spoke at a conference lastfall about mental health and it
was pediatricians and nurses andstudents and several came up
(20:25):
afterwards and said, that'severy patient I see, you know,
this one pediatrician inparticular said, I think I could
talk to you about the mentalhealth issues of almost every
patient that comes to me.
And these are, you know, fromgood families, from families
that are struggling, it goes allthe way across.
I think if we start talkingabout that though, and we
(20:46):
understand that, Hey, We can beyour partner.
Yeah, that makes a lot ofdifference.
Dee (20:50):
Yeah, it's mind and body.
I mean, there's been so manystudies recently about the mind
connecting to body and, youknow, the gut and how that
affects your health.
And I think the world is juststarting to realize the
connection more deeply.
But you had mentioned earlierabout meeting the needs of
diverse populations.
You know, you may not look likeme or sound like me, but We're
still wanting to meet thoseneeds.
(21:11):
The cultural competencies ofmeeting the different
populations.
How are you going about doingthat, meeting the needs of all
the diverse individuals in ourcommunity?
Jim (21:20):
Well, I think one of the first things you have to do is
be able to have people, in yourteam that other people can hear,
not just listen to, but canhear.
And sometimes that has to dowith backgrounds, it has to do
with their ability to beempathetic, and that may come
from life experiences.
And so that whole You know, wekeep talking about the workforce
(21:40):
shortages and all that, so as wemake those decisions about who
we're going to bring into ourteam, I think we have to be
aware that we need to bringpeople in that can reach across
some of those chasms and be ableto speak to the folks that are
actually coming to the door.
What's the old, the old sayingabout, you know, I just built
it, I don't understand why theydon't come.
We have to figure out what ourfolks need, and that's what we
(22:01):
need to build.
Adam (22:01):
You know, these sort of conversations are ones we should
always lean into, and I think wealways have to lean into them.
With a healthy dose of humility,because we don't look and act
like everybody, we look and actlike ourselves.
And that makes us similar tosome people out of the gate and
dissimilar to others.
And so when I was in school tobecome a psychologist, early
(22:22):
2000s, we had these, what youwould call like, diversity
seminars.
And it's not that long ago, youknow, just over 20 years ago,
and the training was about like,here's how to work with all
these people that aren't likeyou.
And so it was sort of one offs,like, Here's how to work with
the Native American populationbecause they're not like you and
here's how to work with theblack population They're not
like you and it was just sort ofthese one off Like bite sized
(22:44):
Lunchables of how to work withpeople and that used to be what
we talked about We talked aboutcultural competence and I really
feel like that's importanttraining I don't mean to demean
the training, but that's notreally gonna open doors And I
also know that the task can't beOnly get services from people
like you because number one,that's nonsensical and it
(23:05):
doesn't promote that sort ofwe're all in this together as
well.
And I think that's one of thethings that is this huge
opportunity, but also this hugeneed is what do we do as
agencies, but also as a societyto make sure that we honor and
celebrate the differences andrecognize that all of us have
different needs and differentpeople groups and different
experiences and all of thosethings require level of
(23:27):
competence.
Lest I misunderstand somethingas a mental health issue that
might truly just be a culturalfactor or a trust factor or so
many other things that wherejust the risk of confusion and
misunderstanding with each othergoes up, the more the
differences are there.
Jim (23:45):
I agree, I mean, I think the one thing, uh, and Dee asked
this earlier, I think the onething that shows up more often
than not are the people that arecoming to you, and again, we
talk about the folks that, thatdon't look like me, they don't
sound like me, but you know whatthey see?
They are able to see empathy andcompassion.
It's the part of the humanexperience that seems to
transcend that.
(24:05):
It has to be real.
Yeah.
And it has to be genuine, andnowhere more so than in
behavioral health and mentalhealth.
There's no, you, you can't justlook at someone and diagnose
them.
There's no wound to see.
There's no arm to set.
There's no cast to put on.
You have to be able to beempathetic and understanding.
(24:27):
And most of us have been throughsomething.
Most of us that work with peoplehave been through something.
And if you can capture that inyour heart for a few minutes.
As you're looking at someone, Iguarantee you'll find a place to
connect.
And that's the people we have toget into our groups and help
them understand this.
Dee (24:44):
Yeah, it's people that are able to be vulnerable.
And people that are servingpeople that are vulnerable.
It's that vulnerability that ourhuman nature tends to want to
go, Ooh, I can't do that.
Adam (24:55):
So there's so many directions I want to go with
this.
And you made me think of anotherone.
There's this, marvelous,marvelous book, and I think this
is where I got it from, but itmight be somewhere else, some
social psychologist, but I thinkit was Daniel Pink, The Power of
Regret.
Highly recommended, but one ofthe things that, comes up in one
of these books is, do you knowwhat happens when people display
more vulnerability?
(25:15):
Their likability factor goes up.
So while we think thatvulnerability, actually exposes
us, so we don't want to show it,over and over again, when people
actually get vulnerable And say,hey, and either share a little
bit of what's going on with themor what they're struggling with.
The people that hear thatvulnerability tend to, on the
whole, like you more, not less.
(25:37):
And I think it's so contrary tohuman nature because we're like,
well, lock that crap downbecause then, you know, no one
ever can hurt you.
Unless you're Brene Brown, ofcourse.
Right, of course, Brene Brown.
Um, I would love to be just likeBrene Brown.
But, for the rest of us, itdoesn't come easy to show that
vulnerability.
Mm hmm.
And I think that that's a reallyimportant piece in this, is that
we all have to sort of go first,right?
(25:59):
That's vulnerability.
Right.
Because if I reciprocate, great,I reciprocated, but you showed
vulnerability.
One of the things I want tostate about mental health is
it's not so long ago that wholepeople groups were on the
receiving end of experiments andwere on the experiments of broad
categorization.
Some of that persists today,hopefully the worst and most
malevolent of it has been ridfrom our society, but there are
(26:22):
a lot of individuals in thiscommunity and so many others who
remember those things and theyare gatekeepers.
And they are rightfully,rightfully, as they should be,
protective and cautious aboutengaging with large systems of
care because large systems ofcare haven't always been
careful.
(26:42):
And I think that that's one ofthose things that we have to
wrestle with when we talk aboutcompetence is recognizing the
context of why people aresuspicious of care and why
people aren't always open armswhen we say, here we are, let's
help.
Because there is a long history,even in an amazing country like
the one we're in, of people notalways being, treated and
(27:03):
received, even by the mentalhealth system in the best
possible way.
Jim (27:06):
Yeah, I think I would even take it a step further.
I mean, I think I would issue achallenge.
I mean, you and I have had thisconversation several times.
But, the leaders in thiscommunity, uh, especially in
mental health, behavioralhealth, and, um, Interventions
have got to display that.
We've got to get over ourselvesand become real.
And, you know, it didn't matterwhether I was wearing a coat and
(27:27):
tie or whether I was up there inmy jeans.
At some of the hospitals thatI've had where we've had
adolescents, as long as I wasreal and was myself, I was just
as accepted by them regardlessof those kind of things that
paint the picture.
Instead, they're able to seeThrough your words and through
your actions what you're doing.
I think we should challenge theother leaders in the area Oh, I
love to get over it get overthemselves Your bottom line is
(27:51):
going to be fine.
Quit worrying about it Let'stake care of some people and and
if those of us that are in theseleadership roles will say I'll
do whatever it takes to makesure that the people that are
entrusted to us get taken careof I think we're fine
Adam (28:04):
What is your challenge?
So you're like hey get over it.
All right, we get over it.
Yeah, and then What are weasking ourselves and others to
do?
What is that?
What is the concrete, like,okay?
I'm ready to buy what you'relaying down, Jim.
What are you laying down?
Jim (28:16):
Yeah, let's come together.
Let's talk about, in real terms,in truth, let's talk about what
our real needs are here.
Not just what we think we needto do, but what do we really
need to do?
Let's forget the stereotypes ofwhat each of us does.
Let's find our lane that we'regreat at and make that a
superhighway instead of a bunchof roads that are crossing each
other.
Adam (28:36):
Show up.
Jim (28:37):
Show up, sit down, be honest.
Let's talk.
Adam (28:41):
And I want to sound like I'm going to contradict myself,
but I hope I'm not.
I've also seen, here andeverywhere else, that all these
areas and people groups andgatekeepers and again, we're
talking different ethnic groups,we're talking the LGBTQ
population, we're talking peoplewith developmental disabilities,
I mean like, I'm talking acrossthe gamut, so I'm not talking
about just one group, but overand over, what I've seen is
(29:02):
when, whether it's myself orsomeone else, when people enter
space authentically and withsome humility, And ears open,
mouth closed, which can comeharder for you and me.
Uh, people are usually happierthere.
I, I don't find massive distrusteverywhere.
What I find is you stop andlisten, you claim the areas, we
(29:24):
as a system and we as an agency,we've let you down and we're
gonna do better.
People are pretty graceful aboutthat sort of a thing and mostly
are.
I find happy that we're there tohelp.
Jim (29:34):
Yeah, I think you're exactly right.
I think we've just got to bestraight up.
I mean, I hate to use this as anexample, but you and I were very
straight up the first time wemet.
I mean, we talked about what ourgoals and ambitions were, and
the things that were important,and it all came back to how are
we going to be able to make adifference with the people.
That again, I hate to overusethe word but they're that are
(29:54):
entrusted to us.
Adam (29:55):
I think the coffee with the Hyperverbal that stuff it
really helped us go straight tothe point.
Jim (30:00):
Yeah, the big cookie was what did it for me?
Adam (30:01):
Oh, yeah, the cookie That was the coffee shop on cherry
street.
Yeah, that was delicious coffeeand cookies
Jim (30:08):
and we're sorry We were there for hours folks, right?
But that very thing is veryvaluable because You just didn't
sit there and talk about familyand children's services.
I just didn't sit there and talkabout Parkside.
What we talked about was thethings that were important to
us, the life that had brought ushere this far.
The things that cause us to wantto take care of people and to
help them get to a better place.
(30:29):
And that was what the connectionwas.
And I think what we find is thatmost people in our line of work,
especially, have that as a core.
That's how we got into this.
Adam (30:38):
Anybody who came to this line of work to get rich, I'm a
little confused by your tactics.
Yeah, me too.
Most people come to this fieldfor the right reasons.
And we have to then return thatwith not just coming to the
right tables, but making sure webuild organizations that can be
sustainable and do supportcareers because we don't want
people to have to bounce whenthey can't pay their bills or
(31:00):
can't find that sustainability.
And I want to stay with this,but I also want to kind of get
into some of those nuts andbolts that I think are affecting
some of those things right now.
Yeah.
Should I go there?
Yeah, let's do it.
Alright.
No, let's do that.
I read another stat today, andit was from a conference last
Thursday, and it went state bystate and talked about since the
unwinding, so during, duringCOVID, everybody raised the
(31:24):
floor of opportunity where moreand more people could be on
Medicaid, right?
And of course, we've expandedMedicaid this, that, or the
other.
What we're talking about is themechanism.
that provides that support forsystems like Parkside and us
because, the vast majority ofclients we serve have Medicaid
or no insurance.
Yes.
Are you similar boat?
Yeah, we're very similar.
(31:44):
And I saw the states color codedbased on how far enrollment has
dropped in Medicaid right now.
There's been such an unwindingand Oklahoma is right up there.
We're number one, tied, 25 to 30percent reduction in people
getting enrolled in Medicaid.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat go into that, certainly
(32:05):
some of it unwinding.
Eligibility is an importantconsideration.
But we're also seeing things,you know, like the transitions
with managed care and so manyother things that is just sort
of swirling people up.
And my fear right now is that asmuch as we're all agreeing that
we've got to do something andshow up and have these
conversations, we also needsustainable ways of providing
(32:25):
support and ensuring that theagencies are all able to do the
things we're tasked with doing.
And for my part, I'm a littleworried about some of that
happening both statewide andnationwide right now.
Jim (32:35):
So here's what I do know, Adam, is that most of the time
we haven't done a good job ofportraying our story of helping
the people that can make betterdecisions really understand
that.
As an example, when I got here,like I said, a little over two
years ago, one of the truths AndI'm using the quotes because one
of the truths I was told is that
Adam (32:54):
For listeners, he used air quotes.
Jim (32:55):
Yeah, I used air quotes.
Um, you will never be able toget an increase in the base
rates in Medicaid forpsychiatric hospitalization.
And I said, well, I, first off,I don't buy that.
They said, no, it hasn'thappened in 16 years.
Let me say that again.
Adam (33:16):
Was that dog years?
Jim (33:16):
16 years, I wish.
Um, and so You know what we did?
We just took the books and laidthem out about what it costs to
take care of kids, specifically,the very best that we possibly
can.
And an amazing group oflegislators worked really hard
that year.
And, and I couldn't even beginto list the shout outs I would
(33:39):
have to do.
And Between what was donethrough the state agencies and
the pressure of thelegislatures, we had the first
increase in 16 years in Medicaidrates.
Because you were real.
We were real.
I don't think the state's gonebankrupt.
I think we're still okay.
That's what I'm hearing.
That increase helped us do abetter job of taking care of
(34:01):
people and taking care of thepeople that take care of people,
which I know is very importantto you as well.
And so, so all that to say Wegotta do a better job of getting
our story out there.
Of how we need support.
Adam (34:14):
One of the pivots we're gonna do, um, and again, I wish
I could claim that I inventedall these ideas, but I'm just
finding them everywhere andthen, um, you know, what did I
say?
Creativity is knowing how toconceal your sources.
That's exactly right.
Uh, we're gonna, in ourmarketing communications and in
our outreach, We're going toemphasize less and less our
number of services.
Because we've always been like,look, we've done this many
(34:35):
services, but one of the ahasrecently is that if people,
funders, lawmakers, if theythink what they're funding is
our ability to provide moreservices, and yet suicide's
going up, all these things aregoing up, it's not really going
to feel like money well spent.
And we are spending right now,nationwide, more on behavioral
health than we ever have.
(34:56):
We're making a massiveinvestment.
Um, like in the last 30 years,there's been like 15.
7 billion just in private equitypushed into behavioral health.
I mean, it's, it is justamazing.
But the fear is, is that toomuch of that is going into
number of services provided.
And the pivot that we're goingto start doing in our outreach,
and I think would be a huge ahaas a community is if we really
(35:20):
did.
pivot from number of servicesprovided to people taken care of
instead of two of how are wetaking care of people because
these funding sources thingslike CCBHC enhancements and
inpatient rate If we couldreally change that conversation
to we've got to invest like thisbecause that's how we take care
of people, I think there's a lotof this would make a lot more
(35:43):
sense.
Jim (35:44):
It is a mind shift that has to happen.
I mean, I've got such an amazingboard that supports me at
Parkside.
And when I was asked about mycensus one day, because before I
got here, many of the floors atParkside were closed down or
they didn't have enough staff toreally build those up.
We fixed that issue, but I hadto explain to them what the
(36:04):
census is.
So the census is not how manypeople are in the hospital right
now.
To me, the census is how manypeople came to our door that we
weren't able to help that dayand why.
That's the census.
If we would all attack it inthat manner, So that changes
everything though because no onethinks that way and when you
find a principle like that Thatfeels good and you realize that
(36:25):
no one else is doing it that wayYou're probably doing it right
Adam (36:28):
and I don't want to artificially bring us around
full circle to where we startedBut when you think about zero
suicide and the Academy and thefocusing on people I feel like
one of the biggest opportunitiesin front of us right now is I
mean like we don't have toconvince Society to be against
suicide, right?
I think they're sort of againstit, right?
but How do we invite people intothat conversation and equip them
(36:50):
with the resources and awarenessso that they know how to help
us, but we know also how to helpthem?
Because I think that everybodyagrees, it's like, who's for
world peace?
Raise your hand.
We're all for it.
We're all for zero suicide.
But back to how we engage withthe community.
Is there anything that we needto be doing or talking about
that we're not?
As it relates to suicide, zerosuicide, young people, all the
(37:13):
groups being affected by that.
Is there something we need topull back around in this
conversation to make sure thatwe don't just talk about all
this, but there are some actionsor things we can lean into?
Jim (37:24):
Yeah, I think it's important for us to be very
inclusive of the people in ourcommunity.
On the Zero Suicide Academy, Iknow we both have some extra
seats at the academy, and so wehave people coming from the
Tulsa Police, I'm reading this,Tulsa Police Department, Tulsa
Health Department, the city,Healthy Minds, Tulsa Girls Home,
Tulsa Public Schools, CherokeeNation.
(37:45):
It's great.
Dee (37:46):
It's all these great partnerships.
It's like, a community rallyingaround a similar idea of
prevention and how to get thosetools into people's hands.
Jim (37:53):
That's it.
It's a compelling story.
It's something that, like yousaid, it's hard for anyone to
not be wanting to be part ofthat.
But the mobilization, sometimesit takes those of us that aren't
as scared of it, that understandit's a problem, to get out in
front and help pull people withus.
And I think those conversationsare going to be great.
(38:15):
We have to involve people in thework though.
Yeah.
And so Tulsa's prime for thisright now.
Shame on us if we don't takeadvantage of this.
Adam (38:21):
A hundred percent, because at the end of the day, I've
never been in a community thatis as all in this together,
locked arms together.
I don't feel like Family andChildren's Services, and I know,
I know you don't feel likeParkside is out and fighting
this on our own.
I feel like this is a communitythat recognizes that we're all
here to help and we definitelyhave some of the things.
(38:42):
We can bring some entrees to thetable, right?
We're not just bringing thesilverware or the, you know, the
drinks like we're, we'rebringing some entrees with the
services we do and the ways wecan engage.
But it does feel like a bigpotluck of people, whether it is
civic agencies, Healthy Minds,uh, first responders, the
tribes, everybody seems to be asconnected as any community I've
(39:04):
ever, been a part of.
about doing this together.
Jim (39:07):
Yeah.
Last Friday night, I was able toattend the Oklahoma Academy
celebration, uh, policycelebration, and no less than a
couple of dozen people came upto me and ask how things were
going, they recognized thatpiece of it, that how important
it is.
And I'm not talking about peoplewho are in healthcare.
I'm talking about people who arein all walks of life that we've
just run into, or that haveheard our message, or have
(39:30):
worked with us in some way tosupport us.
But there's an interest and adesire to make things better and
I think that's what sets Tulsaabout besides the fact that
everybody Here's just prettynice.
Adam (39:40):
They're pretty nice
Jim (39:41):
You know what?
I mean?
Yeah, and then on top of thatyou have people who really want
to leave a better world Yeah,and so Let's help.
Dee (39:49):
Yeah, it's a community helping each other.
And my big takeaway is Get realas a provider, your kind of call
to action, but also theindividuals wanting care, they
have to get real about what theyneed too, about recognizing that
it's okay to ask for help, thatit's okay to get the help that
they need, that there are peoplethat are vulnerable and are out
there willing to help them whenthey're most vulnerable.
Adam (40:10):
I think that's an incredibly important point, and
that's, again, one we dotogether because until it's cool
for everybody to get mentalhealth services, we still have
work to do.
And so stigma has dropped a lot,right?
I mean, I've talked before,COVID made it okay to be
anxious, and that actually wasone of the pleasant byproducts
of COVID is that it was okay tobe anxious and get care, but
there's still so manyindividuals who feel that stigma
(40:33):
and that fear that we still havea lot of work to do, even as so
much stigma has been brokendown, Jim, I think you were
going to say something on this.
Jim (40:38):
No, I, I completely agree.
Let me give you an example ofhow we can work together.
So we were supposed to go to ameeting, people from your place,
people from my place, otherplaces in town, we were supposed
to go to a big meeting and, andit got canceled.
And instead, we went to arestaurant and we talked and we
said, what's the biggest issuewe've got trying to help our
folks?
And it was about access.
(40:59):
It's so difficult, even as hardas we try.
You guys do a lot of stuff.
We do too, to try to make iteasier for people to find us and
to be able to access the system.
We came up with the idea thatthe paperwork is so tedious,
right?
Dee (41:13):
That is a barrier.
Jim (41:14):
So you go to your place, you fill out all the paperwork,
and then And your person seesthe client and says, whoops,
we've got an intense problemhere.
We need to get you over toParkside.
They come to my house and theygot to fill out all the same
paperwork.
Dee (41:28):
So needs to be a systemic change there.
Jim (41:31):
We're talking about four or five groups in town sat down and
said, let's do something aboutthis.
And over the course of time,we're working on the fact that
next month, I think we're goingto roll out a centralized intake
process.
Dee (41:42):
Oh, wow.
And so exciting.
Jim (41:44):
You can enter this room of care.
This room of help from manydifferent doors and you fill out
the paperwork and it's going tocross over.
Adam (41:52):
Interoperability, who would have thought?
Jim (41:54):
Who would have thought?
Adam (41:55):
Right.
Jim (41:55):
And it's happening right here.
And this is something I thinkthat people that get involved
with us, that work with ouragencies, that work with the
things we're trying to do aregoing to be really proud of down
the road.
I think Tulsa can make adifference and show folks how to
do it.
Adam (42:09):
This is a great conversation, Jim.
I'm hoping you'll, come back andwe do it again.
Jim (42:13):
Absolutely.
Anytime.
Dee (42:14):
It's been so fun being real with both of you.
Thank you for joining us today.
Jim (42:17):
Thank you for the invitation.
I appreciate it.
Great, great stuff.
Yeah, it's really good.
I enjoyed that.
I almost forgot there was a micup in my face.
Yeah, I did too.
That was good.
Very good.
Dee (42:32):
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(43:13):
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