June 19, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode of "OK State of Mind," host Dee Harris is joined by Dr. Jennifer Hayes Grudeau and Dr. Amanda Sheffield Morris from Oklahoma State University, along with special guest Christine Marsh from Family & Children's Services.
Check our our previous conversation with Jennifer and Amanda in our episode titled "Moving Beyond Adverse Childhood Experiences: ACES and PACES."
This new conversation delves deeper into the critical role of protective and compensatory experiences (PACEs) as antidotes to adverse childhood experiences (ACEs). The guests discuss the profound impact of intergenerational trauma, the science behind resilience, and the importance of balanced parenting. They share insights from their books and research, emphasizing that it's never too late to build resilience and improve mental health through positive experiences. The episode underscores the transformative power of PACEs in fostering resilience and well-being in both children and adults.
You can hear more from Jennifer and Amanda on wholehearted.org or their website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer (00:00):
Kids who have this in their life do better than kids
who don't.
It's never too late.
We've been saying that for along time, but now we can say it
legitimately because we havereal data to support it, that
what people do now matters.
Dee (00:15):
Welcome to Ok, State of Mind.
I'm your host, Dee Harris, andI'm thrilled to welcome back to
the mics, Dr.
Jennifer Hayes Grudeau, and dr.
Amanda Sheffield morris.
These two were our guests a fewmonths ago, talking about
fostering resilience in a worldof adversity.
It's episode 15.
I'm so excited to have them backto continue the conversation and
go more into intergenerationaltrauma, how protective and
(00:38):
compensatory experiences are ananecdote to adverse childhood
experiences, and to introducemore about becoming a balanced
parent.
Jennifer and Amanda are bothdevelopmental scientists at
Oklahoma State University.
They've co authored the booksRaising a Resilient Child and
Adverse and Protective ChildhoodExperiences.
They have a new series of videoson wholehearted.
(01:00):
org and regularly share theirinsights at aces and paces dot
com.
So, with that, welcome Jennifer.
Jennifer (01:07):
Thank you.
Dee (01:08):
And Amanda.
Amanda (01:08):
Hi.
Thank you.
Dee (01:10):
And we also have a special guest who will be the host with
me, Christine Marsh, who runsFamily and Children's Services
Child Abuse and Trauma Services.
So, welcome.
Christine (01:17):
Hi.
Dee (01:18):
We've talked before in a previous episode that we'll link
in the bio, but, uh, we just hadsuch a great time talking to
you.
We wanted to continue theconversation.
I felt like we just scratchedthe surface.
So, before we begin, for anyonethat isn't familiar with some of
the terms we're gonna be using,can you please tell us a little
bit about what adverse childhoodexperiences are
Jennifer (01:39):
Sure.
So adverse childhood experiencesor ACEs as we say, refer to 10
negative things that happenfairly frequently in childhood.
And we know about this becausesome researchers in California
and at the Centers for DiseaseControl, about 25 years ago,
(02:01):
kind of stumbled across somecommonalities in patients who
were experiencing specificproblems.
And so they systematicallystarted asking questions about
everything that pretty much cango wrong in a person's childhood
in their family and boiled itdown to ten, experiences that we
(02:21):
call ACEs.
So there are five of them thatare what we would think of as
abuse and neglect.
And that would be, physicalabuse, emotional abuse, sexual
abuse, physical neglect, andemotional neglect.
And then on, it's good to usetwo hands because then you can
say, Oh, on the one hand youhave abuse and neglect, on the
other hand you have what theycall Disfunctional families, and
(02:46):
this would include parents whohave a mental illness, parents
with an addiction or othersubstance abuse disorder,
parents who are involved in thecriminal system, have been in
prison, parents who are violentwith each other in the home, and
divorce and separation.
So, it turns out that these tenexperiences, when you add them
(03:06):
up, are the better predictor ofboth physical health problems
and mental health problems thanany other 10 questions ever
designed.
And in fact, when they weredeveloping this measure, I've
talked with, the developers, RobAnda, who was at the CDC, and
Vince Folletti, who was atKaiser Permanente in California,
(03:28):
both physicians.
and Rob Anda said we tried tolook for clusters and it turned
out what was important was nothow they clustered together, it
was the accumulation, theaccumulation of these things
like stairs.
Each one takes you higher on therisk ladder.
So, they just added them up, andwe might argue and say, you
(03:51):
know, some of these seem a wholelot worse than others, but when
you look at the large aggregatenumbers of people, large
populations, really what mattersis the accumulation of stress
that happens when you havedifferent kinds of, negative
experiences.
So, we use it as kind of ashorthand, what's your ACE
number?
Well, if it's four, it turns outthat's kind of a cutoff point
(04:14):
for having maybe a doubled riskof heart disease or cancer.
Not for any one person exactly,because it's not that kind of a
measure for you or you or you,but in general, your risk goes
up, it doubles for physicalhealth problems.
It goes up after four, about 11fold for suicide.
It goes up sevenfold for drugabuse problems.
(04:37):
Rob Anda likes to say it's acrude but powerful and important
measure.
Dee (04:42):
Yeah.
I mean, I think so.
It's like getting your bloodpressure taken.
It's like, Oh, I might have aproblem.
I really should pay a littlemore attention to this.
Even though I think I'm fine,there's some underlying things
that might be affecting myhealth.
Jennifer (04:54):
It's good to know what your number is.
Dee (04:56):
Yeah.
Amanda (04:57):
and I can talk about PACEs, or the Protective and
Compensatory Experiences.
Something I want to highlightfrom what Jennifer said is it's
not just childhood.
These are anything that happenedto you prior to age 18.
So during childhood andadolescence, a lot of brain
development occurs, a lot ofdevelopment occurs, and it
occurs in context.
And so, um, We're learning moreand more about how the effect of
(05:19):
these early negative experiencesor adverse experiences affect
development and can put us atrisk for health problems later
on.
But when Jennifer and I firsttalked about ACEs and we went to
one of the first ACEsconferences, back in 2013, um,
As developmental psychologists,we thought, well, we know a
(05:40):
whole lot about the other sideof the equation and what to do
about ACEs.
We know a lot about resiliencefrom the child development
literature.
We know a lot about parentingand positive family factors and
positive things that can have animpact on development.
And so we looked at thedevelopmental literature and
really thought about the pastwork that had been done around
(06:02):
childhood and adolescence andwhat really predicts resilience
in the face of adversity.
So we came up with 10 paces thatwe call the antidote to ACEs.
And so there are five that aremore relationship focused.
So that would be havingunconditional love from a
caregiver, having a best friend,having a mentor.
Volunteering, especially if youvolunteer with a parent, this
(06:25):
can be a really powerfulexperience to get yourself out
of your own family.
And then belonging, andbelonging to a group.
And that's really importantduring adolescence when peer
relationships are forming.
And so the sense that I have aplace in this world.
And then the other five pacesare what we call environmental
influences or resources andsupports.
(06:47):
And so, that would be having agood school or opportunities for
learning a good education.
Having clear rules andexpectations.
And so, living in a world that'snot chaotic, there's rules and
routines.
Having your basic needs met.
So, you know, making sure thatchildren and adolescents have
(07:07):
the food, the shelter, what theyneed.
It's very hard to be resilientwhen you're just trying to
survive.
And then also, um,
Jennifer (07:17):
Physical activity.
Amanda (07:18):
Physical activity.
And physical activity is reallyimportant because physical
activity is something that helpsour bodies deal with stress.
It also keeps us healthy.
And then the last one is havinga hobby and hobby is where,
especially as children aregetting older, they learn about
their identity.
(07:38):
They learn about like how theirown expertise in something or
their own interest in somethingcan really affect who they are
as a person and gives them anoutlet for being, really able to
excel at something.
And so the evidence is clear toothat having that hobby, having
that opportunity to excel atsomething is really important
(07:58):
for resilience.
Jennifer (08:00):
Yeah.
I want to go back and underscoresomething Amanda mentioned.
Which is that there really isabout 60 years of research
identifying the characteristicsof children and youth
environments that protect them.
There are studies showing somekids have a horrible
environment, a horriblechildhood.
(08:20):
They grow up in terribleneighborhoods.
Their family is a disaster, butthey do okay.
What is different about thosekids?
And so we know that sometimesthe difference is in the child
themselves.
for example, they might be thesmartest kid in the class.
They may be athletic and get alot of support from people that
way.
They may be really gorgeouschildren that everybody, you
(08:42):
know, all the teachers justcongregate and give them extra
attention.
We weren't so interested inthose qualities because those
are harder to change.
We were looking at things, ifsociety is serious about
supporting our kids, what arethe things that are changeable?
Things that we can change bothin our families and in our
communities.
And we found these ten things,solid evidence that if kids have
(09:04):
these things in their lives,they do better.
Christine (09:07):
I'm so glad that you said that because in going
through your book, Raising aResilient Child in a World of
Adversity, it does speak tothat.
It speaks to some of what weknow as traditional child
development, but I also love howyou really tied in that balanced
parenting.
And so what if you don't have anaturally resilient family or
naturally resilient kind ofthings you're talking about?
(09:29):
how do you then parentdifferently?
Jennifer (09:31):
So we know that ACEs can affect our parenting and one
of the ways Trauma getstransmitted across generations
is because it affects ourbodies, it can affect our brains
when we grow up with a lot oftrauma and stress in childhood,
it can affect our genes andcertainly it can affect our
behavior and our ability totolerate stress and to tolerate
(09:54):
negative emotions.
So we thought, if we're writinga book about how to raise a
resilient child, we need to helpparents address their own
history of trauma and their ownbackground.
And that gave us a slightlydifferent perspective than
traditional parenting books.
We're both fans.
I use that term literally.
(10:16):
We are both fans of apsychologist who came up with
something called authoritativeparenting, Diana Baumrein,
because she, talked about abalance kind of between these
warm, nurturing, loving, and,highly communicative aspects of
parenting, but also on the otherside, the accountability, making
(10:37):
sure that expectations are thereand are high enough.
for children to have to work ata little bit and having
consequences when they fail orwhen they don't measure up to
their own expectations or ours.
But we added another aspect toour balanced parenting, which is
self care, particularly whenparents themselves have had
(10:57):
difficult childhoods.
It's unreasonable to expectthat, Oh, now I'm just all
healed.
I'm perfect and I have enough togive to everyone.
Well, Sometimes you do, andsometimes you got to recharge
your own batteries.
And it's like they say in theairplane, you know, if you're
traveling with someone who needsassistance and the oxygen masks
(11:18):
come down, put yours on firstbecause you can't help them if
you passed out from lack ofoxygen.
Dee (11:23):
Right.
Exactly.
So, self care, there's lots ofaspects of that.
You think, oh, I'm going to takea day and go walking, or I'm
going to go to the spa, or I'mgoing to sleep.
How does that contribute tobetter parenting?
Jennifer (11:36):
So when you are caring for yourself, you have more to
give.
And if you are caring foryourself in healthy ways, such
as through PACES, when you havea hobby that you make time for,
when you have a best friend orgroup that fills your cup, and
you get together with your othermothers or dad group, when you
do these things, not only areyou becoming stronger, more able
(12:00):
to control your own emotions andsee the big picture and respond
appropriately when your childmisbehaves, but you're also
modeling for your child, this ishow we deal with stress.
This is how we deal with theadversity that hits us all
throughout life is by buildingourselves up, by making time for
the good things in our lives.
Amanda (12:22):
And I think something that we want to highlight and
that we've learned and we talkabout in the book quite a bit is
that Parenting is part of arelationship So a lot of
parenting books just give toolsand ideas on what you can do to
help your child But we havereally thought a lot about and
as parenting researchers havelearned that it's the
(12:42):
relationship that is so key toall of this and so Having tools
and having ideas on how to helpyour child and raise your child
in certain situations atdifferent ages is important, but
it takes away the importance ofwhat you're bringing to that
relationship.
So we really talk a lot in thebook about being aware of your
(13:05):
own past, your own history, yourown ACEs, your own PACEs and how
they affect your interactionswith your child because that is
a really important part of theequation.
Christine (13:17):
I love that you bring that up again because we can
often talk about what weappreciated as children and how
we were parented and how wedon't want to parent and yet
even having that deliberatethought of I don't want to be
that way doesn't mean that wewon't be.
And so I love in your book howafter each chapter there are
those questions to even reflecton and ask yourself, How am I
(13:38):
parenting?
How is this effective?
And just those naturalquestions, or even some of those
natural coping skills that mighthave been developed that need to
be rethought.
And, I love the chases and thegraces.
Dee (13:50):
You mentioned this the last time and I thought it was just
brilliant, so please touch onthat.
Jennifer (13:54):
So, we talk a lot about biology, and how ACEs
affect our bodies, and then wetalk about behavior, but there's
something else going on, andthat's our cognitions, our
thought patterns.
And so, we both, realize thatthere were patterns in our own
families of origin.
When we think about your acesand your paces, you're also
(14:15):
recognizing there are some rulesthat you grew up with in your
household, like don't letanybody know that we aren't
perfect, or, you know, keepthings to yourself.
And we're thinking, where didthat come from?
Well, these are Adaptations thatwe learned in childhood to deal
with trauma and deal withstress.
And we weren't consciouslydeveloping them.
(14:38):
We were just grabbing them asthey came across our field of
vision.
Oh, that's a good one.
I'll use that.
I get good grades in school,I'll throw myself into school,
and then I won't think aboutwhat's going on at home, or I'm
good at sports, or, we justadapt, and we accommodate, and
it works.
And then, one day we wake up at30, 40, whatever age we are, and
(15:04):
we go, you know, I'm not surethat's working so well for me
anymore.
But we don't often stop andthink about it.
And when we were writing thisbook, I was in the process of
moving and my husband and I werewatching the TV show, um, I
think we were on YouTube, but wewere watching about how to
declutter your house.
Dee (15:23):
Oh, yeah.
Marie Kondo.
Marie Kondo.
Jennifer (15:26):
And she would say, you know, look at things and do they
bring you joy?
Right.
Hold them in your hand and youget that little, ting.
You know, if you do, great.
because it's so functional or sobeautiful or has such meaning to
you, then by all means find aplace for it in your home.
And if it doesn't, say thankyou.
(15:46):
I don't need you anymore.
I appreciate what you've donefor me in the past and now I'm
letting you go either to thetrash heap or to the family and
children services pile.
We'll let them come and pick itup with their truck next week or
to someone else.
But.
Be intentional about what youkeep in your home.
And I'm thinking, this is aperfect metaphor for how to keep
(16:08):
our responses to stress, totrauma, or not.
And so we call them childhoodadaptations to ACEs, or what we
grew up with.
Those are our chases.
And then at some point we lookat them and say, do I keep this
or not?
If it's still useful.
I'm going to make it one of mygrown up adaptations to ACES,
(16:29):
and then we call it a graces.
Part of our graces.
Dee (16:31):
it's about the evolution and it's about the consistent
change that humans go through.
Physically, mentally,environmentally, and I find that
really interesting.
I love the metaphor.
You know, you'd mentionedearlier about, childhood trauma,
adult trauma, transferring thatto your child, family trauma.
Can we touch a little bit onintergenerational trauma?
I find it a fascinating conceptin that trauma can be
(16:55):
transferred from one generationto the other and I know
physically it can, but I'mbeginning to understand that
it's also cellular.
Can you explain that a littlebit?
Amanda (17:04):
Sure, we can, I'll let Jennifer talk about epigenetics
because she does it very well.
But it is passed down throughour biology and so part of it is
through our genetic adaptationsthat are made.
through generation aftergeneration in utero to the
environment that your body isdeveloping in and so when that
(17:25):
child is born, they are preparedfor living in that environment
in which their caregiver wasliving.
But more than just that, it'spassed down through our brain
development through ourinteractions that we're having
with our children.
Those brain responses arehardwired over time within
relationship, within context.
(17:46):
So, it's passed down through ourgenetics, through our brain
development, through our bodies.
Also, behaviors and coping.
And so we learn a lot of thosebehaviors and those cognitions.
But I think Jennifer should talkabout epigenetics because it is
fascinating.
The more, and I want to saythis, that we've learned a lot
about This Originally, wethought this is what happened
(18:07):
intergenerationally.
It's important to note that alot of this research is done in
animal models, and it'sconfirming what we're seeing
behaviorally, but now we'restarting to do this kind of work
in humans.
And, and it's being confirmedthat what we thought was
happening scientifically throughanimal studies, we're also
seeing in human studies as well.
Jennifer (18:27):
It's really, Kind of fascinating to see how the body
responds to stress.
Because it's so smart in so manyways.
Sometimes we're almost toosmart.
So imagine you're a child andthings are stressful all the
time.
Well, you may have come with ablueprint for genes, like
everybody else, but now yourenvironment is saying, we need
(18:50):
to modify that blueprint And aspecific example would be the
chemical that's made to attachto stress hormones.
So we have cortisol and we haveadrenaline that, you know, helps
us run faster and jump higher,that fight flight response under
stress, which is very helpful inthe short term.
(19:10):
Now we all know that cortisol isdamaging in the long term.
It's corrosive to many of ourtissues and organs.
So we want to have the immediateresponse and then we want to get
rid of the cortisol.
So there are cells that attachto the cortisol, kind of gobble
it up after it's done its joband then take it out through the
bloodstream, through the liver,and now it's gone.
(19:32):
So that you don't stay shakingall day, even though on the way
to work this morning somebodyalmost hit you.
Cut right in front of you.
You know that feeling whenyou're driving and you come
inches away from Catastrophe.
I almost have to take a deepbreath just, just talking about
it, talking about it.
I can feel that emotional andphysical response
Dee (19:53):
because your body is so smart
Jennifer (19:55):
so smart.
So that gene that says producethis chemical, we call it a
glucocorticoid receptor, GRreceptor, that gene may.
Not work very well after a whilebecause our body says you need
to stay vigilant.
You need this cortisol.
(20:15):
That other shoe can drop anyminute.
And so one of the ways thishappens is, another chemical, we
call it a methyl group, will beattached to that gene that
produces the GR promoter andsuddenly it's like a dimmer
switch.
It may even turn off altogether.
So you are not now regulatinglike a normal person would.
(20:36):
You're regulating like someonewho's living in a high stress
trauma situation.
And that can be damaging overtime.
And we do know this happens inanimals and it happens
specifically for those chemicalsthat are feeding aspects of our
brain that are switching on andoff, kind of hyper alertness,
that hyper vigilance, but we'restarting to see it in humans
(20:59):
too.
And we can see it even passacross generations.
So you may have a difficult timeresponding to stress, not even
because of what you went throughin childhood, but because what
your grandmother went through inchildhood.
Christine (21:11):
So I like in one of the chapters, you even show that
with the genegram.
And encouraging parents to lookat what did our history bring to
us?
What do we know about what'shappened?
To see how it may play out in myfamily.
Jennifer (21:26):
It's kind of like knowing, right, that you have a
predisposition to diabetes.
If your father and every one ofhis siblings had diabetes by the
time they were 50.
Probably want to watch how muchsugar you take in and have your
blood glucose level checked moreoften than someone else.
And in the case of trauma andstress, there are things you can
do.
There's paces, for example, youcan build a life full of paces
(21:49):
and very deliberately increasethem one at a time.
You can also do things thatactively build new circuits in
your brain.
We know that being mindful andbreathing slowly in a structured
way and allowing your thoughtsto just come and go as we do in
meditation creates new brainpathways that help us control
(22:10):
our reactions and help us lowerour stress responses.
Amanda (22:13):
Yeah, I think something to highlight here is that we do
pass down how our bodies respondto stress, and that is something
that is genetically influenced.
But at the same time, the waythat we are adapting in our
environment, what we're exposedto on a day to day basis affects
how our brain is developing.
(22:34):
And so, what we do, what weexperience in terms of stress
and negative experiences, that'sgoing to maybe put us on
heightened alert or maybe evennot as aware of our environment
because it's too stressful andwe really zone out.
Or, what can happen is theopposite of that, that these
positive relationships, this,this experience of feeling safe,
(22:56):
this experience of feelingloved, that affects our bodies
and our brains as well.
And so much of the harm that wesee from adversity, we're
starting to understand that thiscan also help heal the brain and
body, just as You see inbehavior, you can also see it
through changes in our blood andin our hormone levels, changes
(23:17):
in how we deal with stress, andalso in those epigenetic changes
that can happen because of ourpositive experiences that we
encounter on a day to day basis,things like PACEs.
Dee (23:28):
So in theory, if you were to Really lean into paces and
add those in to your life morerobustly in meditation or
mindfulness and breathing andexercise.
Can you break that cycle?
Amanda (23:41):
Yes.
Jennifer (23:42):
Absolutely.
I'm so glad you asked that.
we have an ongoing, research labwith graduate students and other
faculty members participatingpost docs at Oklahoma State
University.
And we've been collecting datafrom, adults now as well as
children on PACES and what theydo.
And we have pretty robustevidence now that PACES In your
(24:06):
life right now, your currentpaces may be a better predictor
of your mental health thaneither your childhood aces or
your childhood paces.
Dee (24:16):
That's so hopeful.
Jennifer (24:17):
It's never too late.
We've been saying that for along time, but now we can say it
legitimately because we havereal data to support it, that
what people do now matters.
And this is so true for any ofus, but for parents, I think
it's so true.
It's especially true for them tohelp moderate their own response
(24:39):
to their children, but also ithelps them be mindful of the
paces that they are putting intheir children's lives as a
family.
Dee (24:46):
Right.
Christine (24:47):
So I think we see that in some of the treatment
that we do where a parent andchild, where the relationship
had a traumatic experience andthe trust was broken or, or
things, people were traumatizedand how do you rebuild that?
And.
And look at that trust and, andfor that child to be able to do
that relationally with theirparent who also had that
(25:09):
negative experience.
But watching the parent findways to recover, find ways to
support them in their recoveryto understand, we know we don't
feel good right now, we're notacting like we want to, we
aren't having all these things,but we can do this.
And to move them through that isso powerful To watch that happen
and to see that by offering thestructure and the reassurances
(25:32):
and the paces and the self care,how that can be rebuilt and
reworked.
Jennifer (25:36):
The first time we presented paces, almost 10 years
ago, at the Xero conference.
Someone in the audience stood upand said, do you have these
listed on a refrigerator magnet?
It was a therapist who wassaying, I try to do all these
things with my child, but Ididn't know why I was doing it.
It just seemed like the rightthing to do.
(25:58):
And so now I know, and they aresimple, but it's not always
easy.
Dee (26:03):
No, but it is validating too that instinctually as a
parent, you know, in many ways.
what to do to bring positivityinto your child's life and
resiliency.
I mean, this goes back to thewhole resilience thread that I
can see through all of this ifyou'd like to speak to that at
all.
Amanda (26:22):
Yeah, I think that in thinking about hardship and
adversity, that's part of life.
We're all vulnerable.
And so, As a developmentalpsychologist, one of the things
we've thought about is what doesthis look like at different
ages.
And we like to say it's nevertoo late because children are
developing within a family, andso there are multiple
(26:43):
generations as we've alreadytalked about today.
And so I think, if you thinkabout parenting and paces at
different ages, we've realizedthat some of the same core
things are essential no matterwhat age that we are.
They may look a little differentin childhood and adolescence and
young adulthood and evenadulthood, but the paces are
(27:03):
something that promoteresilience because We think they
meet some of these basic needs,and there's some good evidence
for that, especially aroundhelping us learn how to regulate
our emotions, learning aboutrelationships and how to
interact with others, but alsoby developing character
strengths and helping us todevelop things for persistence.
(27:24):
Values, Jennifer can talk moreabout this because I think she's
got some great examples, butit's not just that we have,
okay, these are the things thatyou need to get resilience.
There is a whole process ofdevelopment and growth that
occurs when we engage in PACES.
Jennifer (27:39):
So we mentioned earlier that we came up with the
10 PACES from research that hadbeen done before.
But nobody had looked at why.
Why do these things work?
And as Amanda mentioned, onelevel is pretty, easy to see.
They do meet basic needs.
No one wants to be lonely.
Loneliness is a killer.
(28:00):
We know that.
It kills people.
As does sitting down all day.
So you've got exercise tobalance that.
Um, but on a deeper level, westarted looking at the
literature, the research that isbeing done by people in what we
call positive psychology.
People looking at how do peopledo better and thrive and not
(28:21):
just recover and limp along,which is what our goal is some
days, right?
But how do we really thrive?
And the positive psychologistswere identifying certain
character strengths that helppeople not just thrive, but also
be resilient.
After a death of a spouse, forexample, people who are able to
(28:42):
find joy in everyday life,people who are grateful for what
they have, recover from thatgrief experience in a better,
more positive way.
So examples like that, and westarted thinking, paces aren't
just things you have, likeopportunity to have a hobby.
They are things you do.
Paces are things that engageyou.
(29:05):
They exercise certain skillsthat you have, whether it's
perseverance and persistence,when you first pick up a flute
and it sounds terrible, or theviolin, if anybody's ever had a
sibling start to play aninstrument.
When we started, I'm sure it wasfine, but when we are listening
to someone else, it can be alittle difficult.
What keeps us going?
(29:26):
That, joy that we get from,trying it and doing it motivates
us to keep trying and we learnpersistence.
We learn self discipline.
We learn how to make a schedulewhere we have A space in it for
things that are good for us.
So all these things areexercising skills and
competencies that over timebecome part of who we are.
(29:49):
Those things we call characterstrengths.
And our belief is that's whyPACEs build resilience is
because they build us.
Dee (29:56):
Right.
Well, and you know, adversechildhood experience, you'd
mentioned that really it affectsthe brain by the time an
individual's 18.
You know, I know for a fact asan adult, having an adverse
experience is still devastatingand it's really hard even as an
adult to bounce back from.
But knowing that PACES can workat any age, as long as you bring
(30:20):
that joy into your life, whichmakes me want to advocate, by
the way, for the pet factoragain.
I know you mentioned that lasttime, um, as the 11th pace.
I would like to, have a votefrom our viewers and our
listeners, because I do thinkthat there's a humongous joy
factor in the pet world.
Christine (30:36):
For sure.
Jennifer (30:37):
Yeah, I mean, where else do you get true,
unconditional love?
My husband likes to joke thatyou can tell who loves you more,
your wife or your dog, bylocking each of them in the
trunk of your car and seeingwho's happier when you open it
up.
It's a terrible joke, but itgets at the point that it is
truly unconditional.
Yes,
Amanda (30:58):
it's, it's amazing.
And I think that's an importantpoint too, and that there are
other adversities that aren't onthat list of 10.
I know we talked about that lasttime from a more global
perspective, but even In our ownlives, what we might experience,
it doesn't have to be war, youknow, It's everyday adversities
that can add up, but then itcould be the death of a spouse
(31:18):
or a parent.
And so there are things thatthose other aces that we have
and they're adverse.
They're not necessarily inchildhood, but they're adverse
experiences and the same withPACEs.
They're other PACEs.
Many people talk about having asibling, you know, that that was
something so important to themduring childhood because maybe
their parents, their aces intheir home, and the sibling is
(31:41):
what got them through,
Jennifer (31:42):
another one we've talked about is faith.
A lot of people draw a lot ofsupport.
Absolutely.
From their spiritual, um, healthor spiritual lives.
We were careful when we talkabout it, though, because so
many people have shared with usalso, though, that it can be
weaponized.
Yeah.
Politicized.
It can be.
Religion can be.
Amanda (32:01):
Yeah.
And we try, you know, noteverybody has a sibling, so we
try to pick places thateverybody would have an
opportunity to have, but I doagree with you that that pet,
especially, depending on whereyou are in your life, and if
you're lonely, having a pet inyour life, someone to come home
to.
So powerful.
And they've shown that withoxytocin levels in the brain,
(32:22):
that love hormone, that we havethat same type of physical
reaction that is healing whenwe're with a pet.
And when we spend time with ourpet, it's good for our health
and our mental health
Jennifer (32:34):
And it's hard to find unconditional love if you're 60
years old.
What are you going to do?
Go out in the street and say,okay, I'm ready now.
Christine (32:41):
It goes back to, you know, one of the first
characteristics that you arehoping the values that you had
talked about also in the book ofwhat we're hoping to find or to
have in our families and youknow, trust is a big issue for a
lot of us and Again, with thatunconditional love from an
animal and that trust factor,you're less likely to have that
(33:01):
trust broken, right?
And so sometimes having therelationship with an animal
could, push you forward intotrying with people again.
Jennifer (33:11):
There are cases like that where, um, particularly
young adolescents, if they areinvolved in, with horses or with
other, um, Other animalssometimes they're able then to
learn to trust human beings
Dee (33:24):
it's a beautiful concept So unconditional love as it relates
to parenting Balanced parentingI'd like to talk about that a
little bit more deeply
Jennifer (33:34):
I'm glad you asked because the other part of
balanced parenting that Amandaand I Spent a lot of time
talking about is staying in themiddle of the road because so
many fad parenting practicesspring up and with our society
we're all looking for the latestgreatest thing and we have
influencers seeking to grab ourattention on social media and
(33:58):
for a while it seemed like itwas all gentle parenting.
Well, we're a fan of beinggentle, no question about it,
but as it was interpreted, oftenby people without a lot of
training, it became, just letyour child do whatever he feels
like.
Well, if one child is hittingthe other child, how is that
(34:19):
gentle for the child being hit?
And so, one of the things wereally strongly believe is that
Parenting works best when youare staying in your lane, when
you are keeping your eye on thehorizon, when you know where
you're going.
That goes back to those valuesand virtues we talked about.
We want our children to grow upto be ethical people, people
(34:42):
that no one hates to be aroundbecause they're so, so, uh, rude
or unthoughtful.
So you're constantly thinking.
Feedback.
Nurturing, correction, support,and discipline.
Amanda (34:57):
Right, exactly.
And one of the things that wetalk about in the book is how
this balancing act differs atdifferent ages.
And so when children are young,we're really balancing safety,
keeping them safe, but alsoallowing them to explore because
that's how they developnaturally.
And then in early childhood,we're balancing that idea of
(35:17):
control and choice.
So giving children choices thatyou can live with and giving
them that autonomy, but stillmaking sure that you have clear
expectation.
In middle childhood, we talkabout balancing limits and
independence, which is verysimilar, but this idea that
children They want to beautonomous, they want to have
(35:38):
independence, but they needlimits.
They need that in order to staysafe because they're still
children and that as parents wecan really provide that safety
for them.
And then we talk aboutboundaries and autonomy in
tweens and young teens, verysimilar.
But we also talk about Olderadolescents and young adults and
(35:59):
parenting older adolescents andyoung adults is something that
many parenting books don'treally get into but I am in that
stage of parenting.
My children are young adults andJennifer has been through it and
I'm like, oh my gosh This is thehardest stage.
Dee (36:11):
It's an interesting stage
Amanda (36:13):
Yeah, and that idea of really being able to let go but
still stay involved and how hardthat is And thinking about so
these balancing acts areimportant.
They look, again, something likepieces, a little bit different
at different ages.
The same concepts are there, butin the book we go through what
that looks like at differentages and stages for parents and
(36:35):
children.
Jennifer (36:36):
So balancing kind of their ability to push against
the boundaries versus keepingthem safe, is often more about
our anxiety Then it is aboutwhat they need or what will
other people say if they see ourchildren, you know, playing free
range children now.
Dee (36:56):
The judgment card.
Jennifer (36:57):
Yeah.
The judgment card.
If you let your child do that,well, this child I let do that,
the other child I might not.
But this child has demonstratedthat they are responsible or
they have this track record.
It's really about.
tailoring your, behavior tomatch your goals and the needs
of the child.
But it's,
Dee (37:18):
it's hard because I, segued with the idea of unconditional
love because everything you dowith your child is unconditional
love.
But when you're having to be alittle more disciplined or a
little more firm lined, you getthat, pushback and then you
don't love me and those kinds ofthings.
And you're just, it just is akiller.
Jennifer (37:37):
I remember my daughter once looking at me and saying,
if you'll do this, I'll be yourbest friend.
It's like, no, I'm not going tobe your best friend.
Maybe when you're 30, um, we cantalk again about that.
But right now I'm your mom andmy job is to keep you safe and
make sure you grow up.
to be the kind of person youwant to be.
Christine (37:54):
You have some really neat examples in the book with
some of those two of that, thatambivalence for parenting of, if
I do this, will I push themfurther away?
But if I don't do this, willthey be safe?
And some nice examples and, kindof putting the reader even in
there in the shoes of thatparent of, wow! Which way would
we go?
(38:14):
and the outcomes of some ofthose.
examples that were given thatthen the parent reflecting and
thinking, okay, that worked out.
You know, I tried this and thisis where it went and I can see
that this is how it waspositive.
So I really like those elementstoo, because As a parent, you
know, it is a trial and error,and you do have your own
(38:35):
conflict in your mind of, youthink you should go, what did or
didn't work in your past, whatmisunderstandings you may have.
I mean, even in here, youaddressed the Should we talk
about things?
Should we not talk about things?
And the struggles as a parentthat you go through of, which
way do I go?
And I just like that you putthat out there and made that
(38:57):
really relevant.
Jennifer (38:58):
Yeah.
None of us are perfect.
Amanda (38:59):
No, no.
And I think, realizing that, andwe can talk about the five steps
in a minute, but that last, stepto breaking that
intergenerational cycle ofparenting is realizing that your
children are not you.
And so, they may make mistakesthat you don't make, or they may
not make the mistakes that youmade.
And part of our fear as a parentis trying to protect them from
(39:22):
everything.
And what I think happensnaturally, I've been thinking
about this a lot, this idea ofunconditional love, which is,
like you said, is always there,Dee.
But as children grow older andas they become adolescents and
young adults, it's also learningto love them for who they are.
Yes.
The decision that they made tobe who they are, not who we
(39:43):
wanted them to be.
And that can sometimes be hardfor parents.
And so I think, you know, notonly do we need to love our kids
unconditionally, but we do needto love them for who they are.
I think that's just asimportant.
Dee (39:56):
I agree with you 100%.
And it's, it's sometimes hard.
It is.
Jennifer (40:00):
You get so many surprises as a parent and some
of them you're not prepared for.
So I think it goes back tosomething you mentioned earlier
about it being a relationship.
And in a good relationship, youcan say, you know, I kind of
messed up back there.
My response to your asking methis or you're doing that, maybe
(40:20):
it wasn't the right response.
I'm not really sure what theright response is.
That was the best I could comeup with at the time.
You know, do we want to revisitthis?
maybe we need to move in adifferent direction.
Maybe the rules we set based onthat experience need to be
revisited.
Talk with me.
Christine (40:37):
And that approaches it.
It's amazing again, and it'slike offering a younger child
choices in some ways and anolder child as they're
developing their ability toreflect and come back and have a
conversation.
And how do you manage youremotions and how do you manage
your mistakes and yourcommunication?
It just really elevates thatversus the parent always having
to be right.
(40:58):
And you just stick with itbecause you just have to be
right.
Right.
I
Amanda (41:03):
think that's true.
And I think, you know, I thinkcoming back to what we've been
talking about, those, steps thatwe talk about, the steps to
breaking that intergenerationalcycle of ACEs, and You know, the
first one is really knowing yourown background, your aces, your
pieces, sort of where you areand how that's affecting your
relationship with your child.
(41:24):
And your parents and yourgrandparents.
What is the kind of legacy thatyou bring to this parenting?
So just acknowledging that andthen what, like you were saying
Christine, the second piece,which is so crucial, is really
getting our own emotions incheck.
Learning how to control our ownresponses, our own emotions in
the face of a stressfulinteraction with our child.
(41:45):
And so really being able to becalm and be that parent.
And then, learning about ourchases and getting rid of those
negative adaptations and copingresponses and moving on to
graces.
And then the last one, which iswhat we've been talking about
here, is that your child is notyou.
(42:06):
And so making that realizationthat all the things that you may
be feared or didn't fear thatyou need to really think of your
child as their own individualperson developing in their world
with their own ideas.
And Learning how to walkalongside them and to be that
parent, but still at the sametime, keeping that relationship
(42:27):
in check and helping them knowthat you love them for who they
are and who they're becoming.
Dee (42:33):
That was beautifully stated.
I mean, that just is a summaryof everything we just talked
about.
Christine (42:39):
So much wonderful information.
how do we look at what resourcesor support systems are, really
available for our parents andour families who are dealing
with ACEs and intergenerationaltrauma?
Jennifer (42:52):
This is difficult because every community is
different I mean, here in Tulsa,we're fortunate to have Family
and Children's Services righthere.
We also have several medicalschools with departments of
psychology and psychiatry andsocial work who offer kinds of,
support.
One of the best ways I know isto go on the internet.
But be careful.
(43:13):
You really want to vet peoplewhen you go to see someone.
I'm a big believer in therapy.
I've gone at different times ofmy life when I needed help, as a
parent, as a wife, as a humanbeing, to cope with adversity.
But you want to get multiplereferrals.
Talk with friends.
Talk with trusted people to getadvice because not everybody is
(43:37):
qualified.
Even if they're qualified andgreat, they may not be great for
you.
If you go a couple of times andyou're just not feeling it, it's
like, All right, try somebodyelse.
So there are resources availableeven in rural and remote places
now.
One of the things COVID did wasto put a lot of support online
(43:58):
for people.
So telemedicine and telehealth,you know, we have a lot of
resources now available to usthat we didn't have 10 years
ago.
Amanda (44:06):
Yeah, I think being aware of your own weaknesses and
your own needs and being able toacknowledge that, okay, it's
okay to get help.
It's something that I need.
And that realizing that some ofthis is just making your life
and your interactions better andhealthier and focusing on
yourself, there's nothing wrongwith that.
And so when we help children, wehave to think about helping
(44:27):
ourselves too sometimes.
Dee (44:29):
The self care piece.
Amanda (44:30):
Yeah, and I think that It's not just self care.
It's sometimes self work, youknow, and so working on
ourselves And when we arehealthier and we're better and
we're living a life That's alittle more balanced that helps
us be a better parent
Jennifer (44:44):
There used to be a lot of stigma attached to getting
help mental health We have a lotof friends in the business, of
course, And they say you know,if you had a liver problem,
would you feel guilty aboutgoing to a doctor for that?
Right.
You know, this is brain health.
So, you know, we want to have ashealthy of a life as we can,
whether it's our brain, whetherit's our internal organs,
(45:06):
whether it's our behavior, wecan seek help.
Christine (45:09):
And that's what, that's what we hear so often is
we will bring our children tothese services, but we don't
have time for ourselves.
Or I know what to do.
I just need to do it.
Or I talked to my best friendabout it.
And it is just that perfectexample.
If you needed a tooth pulled,your best friend's not going to
do that for you.
So to give yourself permissionto, Go someplace else and self
(45:33):
work and self care in that wayto give yourself that space and
that ability.
And to recognize that sometimesour friends and family aren't
the best to give us thatfeedback.
And sometimes we need to saysome really difficult things
that somebody else who doesn'tknow them can hear for them
instead.
Jennifer (45:50):
Yeah.
And I think one of the thingsthat maybe is a misconception
about mental health orbehavioral health, is that it's
just You complaining that you'rejust paying somebody to listen
to you, complain about yourproblems.
And in fact, it's really how youlearn new skills.
You learn how to think maybe alittle bit differently.
You learn communication skills,how to express your feelings,
(46:12):
how to become aware of yourfeelings, how to respond to
other people who may behavebadly toward you
Dee (46:18):
and recognize your blind spots.
Jennifer (46:19):
Yeah, you don't know what you don't know, right?
Right.
Dee (46:23):
So I'd like to share with our listeners other ways they
can find your work.
I mean, obviously your book andthe work you do at the
university I know isn't reallypublicly available, but, you're
on wholehearted.
org.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat resource is.
Jennifer (46:37):
So wholehearted.
org is a group of people whotheir goal was to become the
Netflix of mental health.
Oh, wow.
So that they would have a wholelibrary of resources, of videos
and masterclasses available bothto therapists and professionals,
but also to the public on how tolive happier, healthier lives.
(46:58):
And they found us by accidentand invited us to go out and do
live workshops.
Which they videotaped and editedand the first one, the little
mini series is coming out June1st on the book on balanced
parenting.
But then a master class on reparenting your inner child.
Oh, wow.
(47:18):
Which gets at going back andtaking care of that child with
ACEs.
And, and recovering and, andgiving yourself the permission
to grow up, To be the best youcan be and not the person that
is still trying to cope withthose ACEs That comes out later
this summer.
Oh, excellent.
Amanda (47:37):
Yeah, and so the Balanced Parenting mini series
will be available for everyoneon YouTube.
And so that's really for anyonewho is interested in learning
more about parenting, more aboutACEs and PCs.
And then The master class, whichis the one on reparenting the
inner child, is really more fortherapists, for counselors, for
(48:00):
clinicians, coaches, healingprofessionals, teachers, anyone
who works with children.
And so there is a range ofoptions.
If you go to wholehearted.
org, they have a lot ofdifferent information there.
Jennifer (48:11):
We also, have a website, acesandpaces dot com,
and we try to put up resourcesas we develop them.
Amanda (48:20):
Yeah, we have a lot of things.
We have some blogs that we'vedone with the child and family
blog, which has a lot of sciencethat has been translated for a
general audience.
We also have work that we'vedone with the extension services
that have fax sheets and havespecial feature articles that
talk about what we can do tohelp children and families and
(48:41):
then we have our researcharticles on there as well.
So feel free to check that out.
Dee (48:45):
Excellent.
Well, so many great resourcesfor our listeners and again, I
could talk for another threehours with you two.
I appreciate you being gueststoday.
Jennifer (48:55):
We enjoy it so much.
Amanda (48:56):
Yeah, it was a pleasure..........
Dee (48:58):
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Until next time.
Kids who have this in their life do better than kids
who don't.
It's never too late.
We've been saying that for along time, but now we can say it
legitimately because we havereal data to support it, that
what people do now matters.
Dee (00:15):
Welcome to Ok, State of Mind.
I'm your host, Dee Harris, andI'm thrilled to welcome back to
the mics, Dr.
Jennifer Hayes Grudeau, and dr.
Amanda Sheffield morris.
These two were our guests a fewmonths ago, talking about
fostering resilience in a worldof adversity.
It's episode 15.
I'm so excited to have them backto continue the conversation and
go more into intergenerationaltrauma, how protective and
(00:38):
compensatory experiences are ananecdote to adverse childhood
experiences, and to introducemore about becoming a balanced
parent.
Jennifer and Amanda are bothdevelopmental scientists at
Oklahoma State University.
They've co authored the booksRaising a Resilient Child and
Adverse and Protective ChildhoodExperiences.
They have a new series of videoson wholehearted.
(01:00):
org and regularly share theirinsights at aces and paces dot
com.
So, with that, welcome Jennifer.
Jennifer (01:07):
Thank you.
Dee (01:08):
And Amanda.
Amanda (01:08):
Hi.
Thank you.
Dee (01:10):
And we also have a special guest who will be the host with
me, Christine Marsh, who runsFamily and Children's Services
Child Abuse and Trauma Services.
So, welcome.
Christine (01:17):
Hi.
Dee (01:18):
We've talked before in a previous episode that we'll link
in the bio, but, uh, we just hadsuch a great time talking to
you.
We wanted to continue theconversation.
I felt like we just scratchedthe surface.
So, before we begin, for anyonethat isn't familiar with some of
the terms we're gonna be using,can you please tell us a little
bit about what adverse childhoodexperiences are
Jennifer (01:39):
Sure.
So adverse childhood experiencesor ACEs as we say, refer to 10
negative things that happenfairly frequently in childhood.
And we know about this becausesome researchers in California
and at the Centers for DiseaseControl, about 25 years ago,
(02:01):
kind of stumbled across somecommonalities in patients who
were experiencing specificproblems.
And so they systematicallystarted asking questions about
everything that pretty much cango wrong in a person's childhood
in their family and boiled itdown to ten, experiences that we
(02:21):
call ACEs.
So there are five of them thatare what we would think of as
abuse and neglect.
And that would be, physicalabuse, emotional abuse, sexual
abuse, physical neglect, andemotional neglect.
And then on, it's good to usetwo hands because then you can
say, Oh, on the one hand youhave abuse and neglect, on the
other hand you have what theycall Disfunctional families, and
(02:46):
this would include parents whohave a mental illness, parents
with an addiction or othersubstance abuse disorder,
parents who are involved in thecriminal system, have been in
prison, parents who are violentwith each other in the home, and
divorce and separation.
So, it turns out that these tenexperiences, when you add them
(03:06):
up, are the better predictor ofboth physical health problems
and mental health problems thanany other 10 questions ever
designed.
And in fact, when they weredeveloping this measure, I've
talked with, the developers, RobAnda, who was at the CDC, and
Vince Folletti, who was atKaiser Permanente in California,
(03:28):
both physicians.
and Rob Anda said we tried tolook for clusters and it turned
out what was important was nothow they clustered together, it
was the accumulation, theaccumulation of these things
like stairs.
Each one takes you higher on therisk ladder.
So, they just added them up, andwe might argue and say, you
(03:51):
know, some of these seem a wholelot worse than others, but when
you look at the large aggregatenumbers of people, large
populations, really what mattersis the accumulation of stress
that happens when you havedifferent kinds of, negative
experiences.
So, we use it as kind of ashorthand, what's your ACE
number?
Well, if it's four, it turns outthat's kind of a cutoff point
(04:14):
for having maybe a doubled riskof heart disease or cancer.
Not for any one person exactly,because it's not that kind of a
measure for you or you or you,but in general, your risk goes
up, it doubles for physicalhealth problems.
It goes up after four, about 11fold for suicide.
It goes up sevenfold for drugabuse problems.
(04:37):
Rob Anda likes to say it's acrude but powerful and important
measure.
Dee (04:42):
Yeah.
I mean, I think so.
It's like getting your bloodpressure taken.
It's like, Oh, I might have aproblem.
I really should pay a littlemore attention to this.
Even though I think I'm fine,there's some underlying things
that might be affecting myhealth.
Jennifer (04:54):
It's good to know what your number is.
Dee (04:56):
Yeah.
Amanda (04:57):
and I can talk about PACEs, or the Protective and
Compensatory Experiences.
Something I want to highlightfrom what Jennifer said is it's
not just childhood.
These are anything that happenedto you prior to age 18.
So during childhood andadolescence, a lot of brain
development occurs, a lot ofdevelopment occurs, and it
occurs in context.
And so, um, We're learning moreand more about how the effect of
(05:19):
these early negative experiencesor adverse experiences affect
development and can put us atrisk for health problems later
on.
But when Jennifer and I firsttalked about ACEs and we went to
one of the first ACEsconferences, back in 2013, um,
As developmental psychologists,we thought, well, we know a
(05:40):
whole lot about the other sideof the equation and what to do
about ACEs.
We know a lot about resiliencefrom the child development
literature.
We know a lot about parentingand positive family factors and
positive things that can have animpact on development.
And so we looked at thedevelopmental literature and
really thought about the pastwork that had been done around
(06:02):
childhood and adolescence andwhat really predicts resilience
in the face of adversity.
So we came up with 10 paces thatwe call the antidote to ACEs.
And so there are five that aremore relationship focused.
So that would be havingunconditional love from a
caregiver, having a best friend,having a mentor.
Volunteering, especially if youvolunteer with a parent, this
(06:25):
can be a really powerfulexperience to get yourself out
of your own family.
And then belonging, andbelonging to a group.
And that's really importantduring adolescence when peer
relationships are forming.
And so the sense that I have aplace in this world.
And then the other five pacesare what we call environmental
influences or resources andsupports.
(06:47):
And so, that would be having agood school or opportunities for
learning a good education.
Having clear rules andexpectations.
And so, living in a world that'snot chaotic, there's rules and
routines.
Having your basic needs met.
So, you know, making sure thatchildren and adolescents have
(07:07):
the food, the shelter, what theyneed.
It's very hard to be resilientwhen you're just trying to
survive.
And then also, um,
Jennifer (07:17):
Physical activity.
Amanda (07:18):
Physical activity.
And physical activity is reallyimportant because physical
activity is something that helpsour bodies deal with stress.
It also keeps us healthy.
And then the last one is havinga hobby and hobby is where,
especially as children aregetting older, they learn about
their identity.
(07:38):
They learn about like how theirown expertise in something or
their own interest in somethingcan really affect who they are
as a person and gives them anoutlet for being, really able to
excel at something.
And so the evidence is clear toothat having that hobby, having
that opportunity to excel atsomething is really important
(07:58):
for resilience.
Jennifer (08:00):
Yeah.
I want to go back and underscoresomething Amanda mentioned.
Which is that there really isabout 60 years of research
identifying the characteristicsof children and youth
environments that protect them.
There are studies showing somekids have a horrible
environment, a horriblechildhood.
(08:20):
They grow up in terribleneighborhoods.
Their family is a disaster, butthey do okay.
What is different about thosekids?
And so we know that sometimesthe difference is in the child
themselves.
for example, they might be thesmartest kid in the class.
They may be athletic and get alot of support from people that
way.
They may be really gorgeouschildren that everybody, you
(08:42):
know, all the teachers justcongregate and give them extra
attention.
We weren't so interested inthose qualities because those
are harder to change.
We were looking at things, ifsociety is serious about
supporting our kids, what arethe things that are changeable?
Things that we can change bothin our families and in our
communities.
And we found these ten things,solid evidence that if kids have
(09:04):
these things in their lives,they do better.
Christine (09:07):
I'm so glad that you said that because in going
through your book, Raising aResilient Child in a World of
Adversity, it does speak tothat.
It speaks to some of what weknow as traditional child
development, but I also love howyou really tied in that balanced
parenting.
And so what if you don't have anaturally resilient family or
naturally resilient kind ofthings you're talking about?
(09:29):
how do you then parentdifferently?
Jennifer (09:31):
So we know that ACEs can affect our parenting and one
of the ways Trauma getstransmitted across generations
is because it affects ourbodies, it can affect our brains
when we grow up with a lot oftrauma and stress in childhood,
it can affect our genes andcertainly it can affect our
behavior and our ability totolerate stress and to tolerate
(09:54):
negative emotions.
So we thought, if we're writinga book about how to raise a
resilient child, we need to helpparents address their own
history of trauma and their ownbackground.
And that gave us a slightlydifferent perspective than
traditional parenting books.
We're both fans.
I use that term literally.
(10:16):
We are both fans of apsychologist who came up with
something called authoritativeparenting, Diana Baumrein,
because she, talked about abalance kind of between these
warm, nurturing, loving, and,highly communicative aspects of
parenting, but also on the otherside, the accountability, making
(10:37):
sure that expectations are thereand are high enough.
for children to have to work ata little bit and having
consequences when they fail orwhen they don't measure up to
their own expectations or ours.
But we added another aspect toour balanced parenting, which is
self care, particularly whenparents themselves have had
(10:57):
difficult childhoods.
It's unreasonable to expectthat, Oh, now I'm just all
healed.
I'm perfect and I have enough togive to everyone.
Well, Sometimes you do, andsometimes you got to recharge
your own batteries.
And it's like they say in theairplane, you know, if you're
traveling with someone who needsassistance and the oxygen masks
(11:18):
come down, put yours on firstbecause you can't help them if
you passed out from lack ofoxygen.
Dee (11:23):
Right.
Exactly.
So, self care, there's lots ofaspects of that.
You think, oh, I'm going to takea day and go walking, or I'm
going to go to the spa, or I'mgoing to sleep.
How does that contribute tobetter parenting?
Jennifer (11:36):
So when you are caring for yourself, you have more to
give.
And if you are caring foryourself in healthy ways, such
as through PACES, when you havea hobby that you make time for,
when you have a best friend orgroup that fills your cup, and
you get together with your othermothers or dad group, when you
do these things, not only areyou becoming stronger, more able
(12:00):
to control your own emotions andsee the big picture and respond
appropriately when your childmisbehaves, but you're also
modeling for your child, this ishow we deal with stress.
This is how we deal with theadversity that hits us all
throughout life is by buildingourselves up, by making time for
the good things in our lives.
Amanda (12:22):
And I think something that we want to highlight and
that we've learned and we talkabout in the book quite a bit is
that Parenting is part of arelationship So a lot of
parenting books just give toolsand ideas on what you can do to
help your child But we havereally thought a lot about and
as parenting researchers havelearned that it's the
(12:42):
relationship that is so key toall of this and so Having tools
and having ideas on how to helpyour child and raise your child
in certain situations atdifferent ages is important, but
it takes away the importance ofwhat you're bringing to that
relationship.
So we really talk a lot in thebook about being aware of your
(13:05):
own past, your own history, yourown ACEs, your own PACEs and how
they affect your interactionswith your child because that is
a really important part of theequation.
Christine (13:17):
I love that you bring that up again because we can
often talk about what weappreciated as children and how
we were parented and how wedon't want to parent and yet
even having that deliberatethought of I don't want to be
that way doesn't mean that wewon't be.
And so I love in your book howafter each chapter there are
those questions to even reflecton and ask yourself, How am I
(13:38):
parenting?
How is this effective?
And just those naturalquestions, or even some of those
natural coping skills that mighthave been developed that need to
be rethought.
And, I love the chases and thegraces.
Dee (13:50):
You mentioned this the last time and I thought it was just
brilliant, so please touch onthat.
Jennifer (13:54):
So, we talk a lot about biology, and how ACEs
affect our bodies, and then wetalk about behavior, but there's
something else going on, andthat's our cognitions, our
thought patterns.
And so, we both, realize thatthere were patterns in our own
families of origin.
When we think about your acesand your paces, you're also
(14:15):
recognizing there are some rulesthat you grew up with in your
household, like don't letanybody know that we aren't
perfect, or, you know, keepthings to yourself.
And we're thinking, where didthat come from?
Well, these are Adaptations thatwe learned in childhood to deal
with trauma and deal withstress.
And we weren't consciouslydeveloping them.
(14:38):
We were just grabbing them asthey came across our field of
vision.
Oh, that's a good one.
I'll use that.
I get good grades in school,I'll throw myself into school,
and then I won't think aboutwhat's going on at home, or I'm
good at sports, or, we justadapt, and we accommodate, and
it works.
And then, one day we wake up at30, 40, whatever age we are, and
(15:04):
we go, you know, I'm not surethat's working so well for me
anymore.
But we don't often stop andthink about it.
And when we were writing thisbook, I was in the process of
moving and my husband and I werewatching the TV show, um, I
think we were on YouTube, but wewere watching about how to
declutter your house.
Dee (15:23):
Oh, yeah.
Marie Kondo.
Marie Kondo.
Jennifer (15:26):
And she would say, you know, look at things and do they
bring you joy?
Right.
Hold them in your hand and youget that little, ting.
You know, if you do, great.
because it's so functional or sobeautiful or has such meaning to
you, then by all means find aplace for it in your home.
And if it doesn't, say thankyou.
(15:46):
I don't need you anymore.
I appreciate what you've donefor me in the past and now I'm
letting you go either to thetrash heap or to the family and
children services pile.
We'll let them come and pick itup with their truck next week or
to someone else.
But.
Be intentional about what youkeep in your home.
And I'm thinking, this is aperfect metaphor for how to keep
(16:08):
our responses to stress, totrauma, or not.
And so we call them childhoodadaptations to ACEs, or what we
grew up with.
Those are our chases.
And then at some point we lookat them and say, do I keep this
or not?
If it's still useful.
I'm going to make it one of mygrown up adaptations to ACES,
(16:29):
and then we call it a graces.
Part of our graces.
Dee (16:31):
it's about the evolution and it's about the consistent
change that humans go through.
Physically, mentally,environmentally, and I find that
really interesting.
I love the metaphor.
You know, you'd mentionedearlier about, childhood trauma,
adult trauma, transferring thatto your child, family trauma.
Can we touch a little bit onintergenerational trauma?
I find it a fascinating conceptin that trauma can be
(16:55):
transferred from one generationto the other and I know
physically it can, but I'mbeginning to understand that
it's also cellular.
Can you explain that a littlebit?
Amanda (17:04):
Sure, we can, I'll let Jennifer talk about epigenetics
because she does it very well.
But it is passed down throughour biology and so part of it is
through our genetic adaptationsthat are made.
through generation aftergeneration in utero to the
environment that your body isdeveloping in and so when that
(17:25):
child is born, they are preparedfor living in that environment
in which their caregiver wasliving.
But more than just that, it'spassed down through our brain
development through ourinteractions that we're having
with our children.
Those brain responses arehardwired over time within
relationship, within context.
(17:46):
So, it's passed down through ourgenetics, through our brain
development, through our bodies.
Also, behaviors and coping.
And so we learn a lot of thosebehaviors and those cognitions.
But I think Jennifer should talkabout epigenetics because it is
fascinating.
The more, and I want to saythis, that we've learned a lot
about This Originally, wethought this is what happened
(18:07):
intergenerationally.
It's important to note that alot of this research is done in
animal models, and it'sconfirming what we're seeing
behaviorally, but now we'restarting to do this kind of work
in humans.
And, and it's being confirmedthat what we thought was
happening scientifically throughanimal studies, we're also
seeing in human studies as well.
Jennifer (18:27):
It's really, Kind of fascinating to see how the body
responds to stress.
Because it's so smart in so manyways.
Sometimes we're almost toosmart.
So imagine you're a child andthings are stressful all the
time.
Well, you may have come with ablueprint for genes, like
everybody else, but now yourenvironment is saying, we need
(18:50):
to modify that blueprint And aspecific example would be the
chemical that's made to attachto stress hormones.
So we have cortisol and we haveadrenaline that, you know, helps
us run faster and jump higher,that fight flight response under
stress, which is very helpful inthe short term.
(19:10):
Now we all know that cortisol isdamaging in the long term.
It's corrosive to many of ourtissues and organs.
So we want to have the immediateresponse and then we want to get
rid of the cortisol.
So there are cells that attachto the cortisol, kind of gobble
it up after it's done its joband then take it out through the
bloodstream, through the liver,and now it's gone.
(19:32):
So that you don't stay shakingall day, even though on the way
to work this morning somebodyalmost hit you.
Cut right in front of you.
You know that feeling whenyou're driving and you come
inches away from Catastrophe.
I almost have to take a deepbreath just, just talking about
it, talking about it.
I can feel that emotional andphysical response
Dee (19:53):
because your body is so smart
Jennifer (19:55):
so smart.
So that gene that says producethis chemical, we call it a
glucocorticoid receptor, GRreceptor, that gene may.
Not work very well after a whilebecause our body says you need
to stay vigilant.
You need this cortisol.
(20:15):
That other shoe can drop anyminute.
And so one of the ways thishappens is, another chemical, we
call it a methyl group, will beattached to that gene that
produces the GR promoter andsuddenly it's like a dimmer
switch.
It may even turn off altogether.
So you are not now regulatinglike a normal person would.
(20:36):
You're regulating like someonewho's living in a high stress
trauma situation.
And that can be damaging overtime.
And we do know this happens inanimals and it happens
specifically for those chemicalsthat are feeding aspects of our
brain that are switching on andoff, kind of hyper alertness,
that hyper vigilance, but we'restarting to see it in humans
(20:59):
too.
And we can see it even passacross generations.
So you may have a difficult timeresponding to stress, not even
because of what you went throughin childhood, but because what
your grandmother went through inchildhood.
Christine (21:11):
So I like in one of the chapters, you even show that
with the genegram.
And encouraging parents to lookat what did our history bring to
us?
What do we know about what'shappened?
To see how it may play out in myfamily.
Jennifer (21:26):
It's kind of like knowing, right, that you have a
predisposition to diabetes.
If your father and every one ofhis siblings had diabetes by the
time they were 50.
Probably want to watch how muchsugar you take in and have your
blood glucose level checked moreoften than someone else.
And in the case of trauma andstress, there are things you can
do.
There's paces, for example, youcan build a life full of paces
(21:49):
and very deliberately increasethem one at a time.
You can also do things thatactively build new circuits in
your brain.
We know that being mindful andbreathing slowly in a structured
way and allowing your thoughtsto just come and go as we do in
meditation creates new brainpathways that help us control
(22:10):
our reactions and help us lowerour stress responses.
Amanda (22:13):
Yeah, I think something to highlight here is that we do
pass down how our bodies respondto stress, and that is something
that is genetically influenced.
But at the same time, the waythat we are adapting in our
environment, what we're exposedto on a day to day basis affects
how our brain is developing.
(22:34):
And so, what we do, what weexperience in terms of stress
and negative experiences, that'sgoing to maybe put us on
heightened alert or maybe evennot as aware of our environment
because it's too stressful andwe really zone out.
Or, what can happen is theopposite of that, that these
positive relationships, this,this experience of feeling safe,
(22:56):
this experience of feelingloved, that affects our bodies
and our brains as well.
And so much of the harm that wesee from adversity, we're
starting to understand that thiscan also help heal the brain and
body, just as You see inbehavior, you can also see it
through changes in our blood andin our hormone levels, changes
(23:17):
in how we deal with stress, andalso in those epigenetic changes
that can happen because of ourpositive experiences that we
encounter on a day to day basis,things like PACEs.
Dee (23:28):
So in theory, if you were to Really lean into paces and
add those in to your life morerobustly in meditation or
mindfulness and breathing andexercise.
Can you break that cycle?
Amanda (23:41):
Yes.
Jennifer (23:42):
Absolutely.
I'm so glad you asked that.
we have an ongoing, research labwith graduate students and other
faculty members participatingpost docs at Oklahoma State
University.
And we've been collecting datafrom, adults now as well as
children on PACES and what theydo.
And we have pretty robustevidence now that PACES In your
(24:06):
life right now, your currentpaces may be a better predictor
of your mental health thaneither your childhood aces or
your childhood paces.
Dee (24:16):
That's so hopeful.
Jennifer (24:17):
It's never too late.
We've been saying that for along time, but now we can say it
legitimately because we havereal data to support it, that
what people do now matters.
And this is so true for any ofus, but for parents, I think
it's so true.
It's especially true for them tohelp moderate their own response
(24:39):
to their children, but also ithelps them be mindful of the
paces that they are putting intheir children's lives as a
family.
Dee (24:46):
Right.
Christine (24:47):
So I think we see that in some of the treatment
that we do where a parent andchild, where the relationship
had a traumatic experience andthe trust was broken or, or
things, people were traumatizedand how do you rebuild that?
And.
And look at that trust and, andfor that child to be able to do
that relationally with theirparent who also had that
(25:09):
negative experience.
But watching the parent findways to recover, find ways to
support them in their recoveryto understand, we know we don't
feel good right now, we're notacting like we want to, we
aren't having all these things,but we can do this.
And to move them through that isso powerful To watch that happen
and to see that by offering thestructure and the reassurances
(25:32):
and the paces and the self care,how that can be rebuilt and
reworked.
Jennifer (25:36):
The first time we presented paces, almost 10 years
ago, at the Xero conference.
Someone in the audience stood upand said, do you have these
listed on a refrigerator magnet?
It was a therapist who wassaying, I try to do all these
things with my child, but Ididn't know why I was doing it.
It just seemed like the rightthing to do.
(25:58):
And so now I know, and they aresimple, but it's not always
easy.
Dee (26:03):
No, but it is validating too that instinctually as a
parent, you know, in many ways.
what to do to bring positivityinto your child's life and
resiliency.
I mean, this goes back to thewhole resilience thread that I
can see through all of this ifyou'd like to speak to that at
all.
Amanda (26:22):
Yeah, I think that in thinking about hardship and
adversity, that's part of life.
We're all vulnerable.
And so, As a developmentalpsychologist, one of the things
we've thought about is what doesthis look like at different
ages.
And we like to say it's nevertoo late because children are
developing within a family, andso there are multiple
(26:43):
generations as we've alreadytalked about today.
And so I think, if you thinkabout parenting and paces at
different ages, we've realizedthat some of the same core
things are essential no matterwhat age that we are.
They may look a little differentin childhood and adolescence and
young adulthood and evenadulthood, but the paces are
(27:03):
something that promoteresilience because We think they
meet some of these basic needs,and there's some good evidence
for that, especially aroundhelping us learn how to regulate
our emotions, learning aboutrelationships and how to
interact with others, but alsoby developing character
strengths and helping us todevelop things for persistence.
(27:24):
Values, Jennifer can talk moreabout this because I think she's
got some great examples, butit's not just that we have,
okay, these are the things thatyou need to get resilience.
There is a whole process ofdevelopment and growth that
occurs when we engage in PACES.
Jennifer (27:39):
So we mentioned earlier that we came up with the
10 PACES from research that hadbeen done before.
But nobody had looked at why.
Why do these things work?
And as Amanda mentioned, onelevel is pretty, easy to see.
They do meet basic needs.
No one wants to be lonely.
Loneliness is a killer.
(28:00):
We know that.
It kills people.
As does sitting down all day.
So you've got exercise tobalance that.
Um, but on a deeper level, westarted looking at the
literature, the research that isbeing done by people in what we
call positive psychology.
People looking at how do peopledo better and thrive and not
(28:21):
just recover and limp along,which is what our goal is some
days, right?
But how do we really thrive?
And the positive psychologistswere identifying certain
character strengths that helppeople not just thrive, but also
be resilient.
After a death of a spouse, forexample, people who are able to
(28:42):
find joy in everyday life,people who are grateful for what
they have, recover from thatgrief experience in a better,
more positive way.
So examples like that, and westarted thinking, paces aren't
just things you have, likeopportunity to have a hobby.
They are things you do.
Paces are things that engageyou.
(29:05):
They exercise certain skillsthat you have, whether it's
perseverance and persistence,when you first pick up a flute
and it sounds terrible, or theviolin, if anybody's ever had a
sibling start to play aninstrument.
When we started, I'm sure it wasfine, but when we are listening
to someone else, it can be alittle difficult.
What keeps us going?
(29:26):
That, joy that we get from,trying it and doing it motivates
us to keep trying and we learnpersistence.
We learn self discipline.
We learn how to make a schedulewhere we have A space in it for
things that are good for us.
So all these things areexercising skills and
competencies that over timebecome part of who we are.
(29:49):
Those things we call characterstrengths.
And our belief is that's whyPACEs build resilience is
because they build us.
Dee (29:56):
Right.
Well, and you know, adversechildhood experience, you'd
mentioned that really it affectsthe brain by the time an
individual's 18.
You know, I know for a fact asan adult, having an adverse
experience is still devastatingand it's really hard even as an
adult to bounce back from.
But knowing that PACES can workat any age, as long as you bring
(30:20):
that joy into your life, whichmakes me want to advocate, by
the way, for the pet factoragain.
I know you mentioned that lasttime, um, as the 11th pace.
I would like to, have a votefrom our viewers and our
listeners, because I do thinkthat there's a humongous joy
factor in the pet world.
Christine (30:36):
For sure.
Jennifer (30:37):
Yeah, I mean, where else do you get true,
unconditional love?
My husband likes to joke thatyou can tell who loves you more,
your wife or your dog, bylocking each of them in the
trunk of your car and seeingwho's happier when you open it
up.
It's a terrible joke, but itgets at the point that it is
truly unconditional.
Yes,
Amanda (30:58):
it's, it's amazing.
And I think that's an importantpoint too, and that there are
other adversities that aren't onthat list of 10.
I know we talked about that lasttime from a more global
perspective, but even In our ownlives, what we might experience,
it doesn't have to be war, youknow, It's everyday adversities
that can add up, but then itcould be the death of a spouse
(31:18):
or a parent.
And so there are things thatthose other aces that we have
and they're adverse.
They're not necessarily inchildhood, but they're adverse
experiences and the same withPACEs.
They're other PACEs.
Many people talk about having asibling, you know, that that was
something so important to themduring childhood because maybe
their parents, their aces intheir home, and the sibling is
(31:41):
what got them through,
Jennifer (31:42):
another one we've talked about is faith.
A lot of people draw a lot ofsupport.
Absolutely.
From their spiritual, um, healthor spiritual lives.
We were careful when we talkabout it, though, because so
many people have shared with usalso, though, that it can be
weaponized.
Yeah.
Politicized.
It can be.
Religion can be.
Amanda (32:01):
Yeah.
And we try, you know, noteverybody has a sibling, so we
try to pick places thateverybody would have an
opportunity to have, but I doagree with you that that pet,
especially, depending on whereyou are in your life, and if
you're lonely, having a pet inyour life, someone to come home
to.
So powerful.
And they've shown that withoxytocin levels in the brain,
(32:22):
that love hormone, that we havethat same type of physical
reaction that is healing whenwe're with a pet.
And when we spend time with ourpet, it's good for our health
and our mental health
Jennifer (32:34):
And it's hard to find unconditional love if you're 60
years old.
What are you going to do?
Go out in the street and say,okay, I'm ready now.
Christine (32:41):
It goes back to, you know, one of the first
characteristics that you arehoping the values that you had
talked about also in the book ofwhat we're hoping to find or to
have in our families and youknow, trust is a big issue for a
lot of us and Again, with thatunconditional love from an
animal and that trust factor,you're less likely to have that
(33:01):
trust broken, right?
And so sometimes having therelationship with an animal
could, push you forward intotrying with people again.
Jennifer (33:11):
There are cases like that where, um, particularly
young adolescents, if they areinvolved in, with horses or with
other, um, Other animalssometimes they're able then to
learn to trust human beings
Dee (33:24):
it's a beautiful concept So unconditional love as it relates
to parenting Balanced parentingI'd like to talk about that a
little bit more deeply
Jennifer (33:34):
I'm glad you asked because the other part of
balanced parenting that Amandaand I Spent a lot of time
talking about is staying in themiddle of the road because so
many fad parenting practicesspring up and with our society
we're all looking for the latestgreatest thing and we have
influencers seeking to grab ourattention on social media and
(33:58):
for a while it seemed like itwas all gentle parenting.
Well, we're a fan of beinggentle, no question about it,
but as it was interpreted, oftenby people without a lot of
training, it became, just letyour child do whatever he feels
like.
Well, if one child is hittingthe other child, how is that
(34:19):
gentle for the child being hit?
And so, one of the things wereally strongly believe is that
Parenting works best when youare staying in your lane, when
you are keeping your eye on thehorizon, when you know where
you're going.
That goes back to those valuesand virtues we talked about.
We want our children to grow upto be ethical people, people
(34:42):
that no one hates to be aroundbecause they're so, so, uh, rude
or unthoughtful.
So you're constantly thinking.
Feedback.
Nurturing, correction, support,and discipline.
Amanda (34:57):
Right, exactly.
And one of the things that wetalk about in the book is how
this balancing act differs atdifferent ages.
And so when children are young,we're really balancing safety,
keeping them safe, but alsoallowing them to explore because
that's how they developnaturally.
And then in early childhood,we're balancing that idea of
(35:17):
control and choice.
So giving children choices thatyou can live with and giving
them that autonomy, but stillmaking sure that you have clear
expectation.
In middle childhood, we talkabout balancing limits and
independence, which is verysimilar, but this idea that
children They want to beautonomous, they want to have
(35:38):
independence, but they needlimits.
They need that in order to staysafe because they're still
children and that as parents wecan really provide that safety
for them.
And then we talk aboutboundaries and autonomy in
tweens and young teens, verysimilar.
But we also talk about Olderadolescents and young adults and
(35:59):
parenting older adolescents andyoung adults is something that
many parenting books don'treally get into but I am in that
stage of parenting.
My children are young adults andJennifer has been through it and
I'm like, oh my gosh This is thehardest stage.
Dee (36:11):
It's an interesting stage
Amanda (36:13):
Yeah, and that idea of really being able to let go but
still stay involved and how hardthat is And thinking about so
these balancing acts areimportant.
They look, again, something likepieces, a little bit different
at different ages.
The same concepts are there, butin the book we go through what
that looks like at differentages and stages for parents and
(36:35):
children.
Jennifer (36:36):
So balancing kind of their ability to push against
the boundaries versus keepingthem safe, is often more about
our anxiety Then it is aboutwhat they need or what will
other people say if they see ourchildren, you know, playing free
range children now.
Dee (36:56):
The judgment card.
Jennifer (36:57):
Yeah.
The judgment card.
If you let your child do that,well, this child I let do that,
the other child I might not.
But this child has demonstratedthat they are responsible or
they have this track record.
It's really about.
tailoring your, behavior tomatch your goals and the needs
of the child.
But it's,
Dee (37:18):
it's hard because I, segued with the idea of unconditional
love because everything you dowith your child is unconditional
love.
But when you're having to be alittle more disciplined or a
little more firm lined, you getthat, pushback and then you
don't love me and those kinds ofthings.
And you're just, it just is akiller.
Jennifer (37:37):
I remember my daughter once looking at me and saying,
if you'll do this, I'll be yourbest friend.
It's like, no, I'm not going tobe your best friend.
Maybe when you're 30, um, we cantalk again about that.
But right now I'm your mom andmy job is to keep you safe and
make sure you grow up.
to be the kind of person youwant to be.
Christine (37:54):
You have some really neat examples in the book with
some of those two of that, thatambivalence for parenting of, if
I do this, will I push themfurther away?
But if I don't do this, willthey be safe?
And some nice examples and, kindof putting the reader even in
there in the shoes of thatparent of, wow! Which way would
we go?
(38:14):
and the outcomes of some ofthose.
examples that were given thatthen the parent reflecting and
thinking, okay, that worked out.
You know, I tried this and thisis where it went and I can see
that this is how it waspositive.
So I really like those elementstoo, because As a parent, you
know, it is a trial and error,and you do have your own
(38:35):
conflict in your mind of, youthink you should go, what did or
didn't work in your past, whatmisunderstandings you may have.
I mean, even in here, youaddressed the Should we talk
about things?
Should we not talk about things?
And the struggles as a parentthat you go through of, which
way do I go?
And I just like that you putthat out there and made that
(38:57):
really relevant.
Jennifer (38:58):
Yeah.
None of us are perfect.
Amanda (38:59):
No, no.
And I think, realizing that, andwe can talk about the five steps
in a minute, but that last, stepto breaking that
intergenerational cycle ofparenting is realizing that your
children are not you.
And so, they may make mistakesthat you don't make, or they may
not make the mistakes that youmade.
And part of our fear as a parentis trying to protect them from
(39:22):
everything.
And what I think happensnaturally, I've been thinking
about this a lot, this idea ofunconditional love, which is,
like you said, is always there,Dee.
But as children grow older andas they become adolescents and
young adults, it's also learningto love them for who they are.
Yes.
The decision that they made tobe who they are, not who we
(39:43):
wanted them to be.
And that can sometimes be hardfor parents.
And so I think, you know, notonly do we need to love our kids
unconditionally, but we do needto love them for who they are.
I think that's just asimportant.
Dee (39:56):
I agree with you 100%.
And it's, it's sometimes hard.
It is.
Jennifer (40:00):
You get so many surprises as a parent and some
of them you're not prepared for.
So I think it goes back tosomething you mentioned earlier
about it being a relationship.
And in a good relationship, youcan say, you know, I kind of
messed up back there.
My response to your asking methis or you're doing that, maybe
(40:20):
it wasn't the right response.
I'm not really sure what theright response is.
That was the best I could comeup with at the time.
You know, do we want to revisitthis?
maybe we need to move in adifferent direction.
Maybe the rules we set based onthat experience need to be
revisited.
Talk with me.
Christine (40:37):
And that approaches it.
It's amazing again, and it'slike offering a younger child
choices in some ways and anolder child as they're
developing their ability toreflect and come back and have a
conversation.
And how do you manage youremotions and how do you manage
your mistakes and yourcommunication?
It just really elevates thatversus the parent always having
to be right.
(40:58):
And you just stick with itbecause you just have to be
right.
Right.
I
Amanda (41:03):
think that's true.
And I think, you know, I thinkcoming back to what we've been
talking about, those, steps thatwe talk about, the steps to
breaking that intergenerationalcycle of ACEs, and You know, the
first one is really knowing yourown background, your aces, your
pieces, sort of where you areand how that's affecting your
relationship with your child.
(41:24):
And your parents and yourgrandparents.
What is the kind of legacy thatyou bring to this parenting?
So just acknowledging that andthen what, like you were saying
Christine, the second piece,which is so crucial, is really
getting our own emotions incheck.
Learning how to control our ownresponses, our own emotions in
the face of a stressfulinteraction with our child.
(41:45):
And so really being able to becalm and be that parent.
And then, learning about ourchases and getting rid of those
negative adaptations and copingresponses and moving on to
graces.
And then the last one, which iswhat we've been talking about
here, is that your child is notyou.
(42:06):
And so making that realizationthat all the things that you may
be feared or didn't fear thatyou need to really think of your
child as their own individualperson developing in their world
with their own ideas.
And Learning how to walkalongside them and to be that
parent, but still at the sametime, keeping that relationship
(42:27):
in check and helping them knowthat you love them for who they
are and who they're becoming.
Dee (42:33):
That was beautifully stated.
I mean, that just is a summaryof everything we just talked
about.
Christine (42:39):
So much wonderful information.
how do we look at what resourcesor support systems are, really
available for our parents andour families who are dealing
with ACEs and intergenerationaltrauma?
Jennifer (42:52):
This is difficult because every community is
different I mean, here in Tulsa,we're fortunate to have Family
and Children's Services righthere.
We also have several medicalschools with departments of
psychology and psychiatry andsocial work who offer kinds of,
support.
One of the best ways I know isto go on the internet.
But be careful.
(43:13):
You really want to vet peoplewhen you go to see someone.
I'm a big believer in therapy.
I've gone at different times ofmy life when I needed help, as a
parent, as a wife, as a humanbeing, to cope with adversity.
But you want to get multiplereferrals.
Talk with friends.
Talk with trusted people to getadvice because not everybody is
(43:37):
qualified.
Even if they're qualified andgreat, they may not be great for
you.
If you go a couple of times andyou're just not feeling it, it's
like, All right, try somebodyelse.
So there are resources availableeven in rural and remote places
now.
One of the things COVID did wasto put a lot of support online
(43:58):
for people.
So telemedicine and telehealth,you know, we have a lot of
resources now available to usthat we didn't have 10 years
ago.
Amanda (44:06):
Yeah, I think being aware of your own weaknesses and
your own needs and being able toacknowledge that, okay, it's
okay to get help.
It's something that I need.
And that realizing that some ofthis is just making your life
and your interactions better andhealthier and focusing on
yourself, there's nothing wrongwith that.
And so when we help children, wehave to think about helping
(44:27):
ourselves too sometimes.
Dee (44:29):
The self care piece.
Amanda (44:30):
Yeah, and I think that It's not just self care.
It's sometimes self work, youknow, and so working on
ourselves And when we arehealthier and we're better and
we're living a life That's alittle more balanced that helps
us be a better parent
Jennifer (44:44):
There used to be a lot of stigma attached to getting
help mental health We have a lotof friends in the business, of
course, And they say you know,if you had a liver problem,
would you feel guilty aboutgoing to a doctor for that?
Right.
You know, this is brain health.
So, you know, we want to have ashealthy of a life as we can,
whether it's our brain, whetherit's our internal organs,
(45:06):
whether it's our behavior, wecan seek help.
Christine (45:09):
And that's what, that's what we hear so often is
we will bring our children tothese services, but we don't
have time for ourselves.
Or I know what to do.
I just need to do it.
Or I talked to my best friendabout it.
And it is just that perfectexample.
If you needed a tooth pulled,your best friend's not going to
do that for you.
So to give yourself permissionto, Go someplace else and self
(45:33):
work and self care in that wayto give yourself that space and
that ability.
And to recognize that sometimesour friends and family aren't
the best to give us thatfeedback.
And sometimes we need to saysome really difficult things
that somebody else who doesn'tknow them can hear for them
instead.
Jennifer (45:50):
Yeah.
And I think one of the thingsthat maybe is a misconception
about mental health orbehavioral health, is that it's
just You complaining that you'rejust paying somebody to listen
to you, complain about yourproblems.
And in fact, it's really how youlearn new skills.
You learn how to think maybe alittle bit differently.
You learn communication skills,how to express your feelings,
(46:12):
how to become aware of yourfeelings, how to respond to
other people who may behavebadly toward you
Dee (46:18):
and recognize your blind spots.
Jennifer (46:19):
Yeah, you don't know what you don't know, right?
Right.
Dee (46:23):
So I'd like to share with our listeners other ways they
can find your work.
I mean, obviously your book andthe work you do at the
university I know isn't reallypublicly available, but, you're
on wholehearted.
org.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat resource is.
Jennifer (46:37):
So wholehearted.
org is a group of people whotheir goal was to become the
Netflix of mental health.
Oh, wow.
So that they would have a wholelibrary of resources, of videos
and masterclasses available bothto therapists and professionals,
but also to the public on how tolive happier, healthier lives.
(46:58):
And they found us by accidentand invited us to go out and do
live workshops.
Which they videotaped and editedand the first one, the little
mini series is coming out June1st on the book on balanced
parenting.
But then a master class on reparenting your inner child.
Oh, wow.
(47:18):
Which gets at going back andtaking care of that child with
ACEs.
And, and recovering and, andgiving yourself the permission
to grow up, To be the best youcan be and not the person that
is still trying to cope withthose ACEs That comes out later
this summer.
Oh, excellent.
Amanda (47:37):
Yeah, and so the Balanced Parenting mini series
will be available for everyoneon YouTube.
And so that's really for anyonewho is interested in learning
more about parenting, more aboutACEs and PCs.
And then The master class, whichis the one on reparenting the
inner child, is really more fortherapists, for counselors, for
(48:00):
clinicians, coaches, healingprofessionals, teachers, anyone
who works with children.
And so there is a range ofoptions.
If you go to wholehearted.
org, they have a lot ofdifferent information there.
Jennifer (48:11):
We also, have a website, acesandpaces dot com,
and we try to put up resourcesas we develop them.
Amanda (48:20):
Yeah, we have a lot of things.
We have some blogs that we'vedone with the child and family
blog, which has a lot of sciencethat has been translated for a
general audience.
We also have work that we'vedone with the extension services
that have fax sheets and havespecial feature articles that
talk about what we can do tohelp children and families and
(48:41):
then we have our researcharticles on there as well.
So feel free to check that out.
Dee (48:45):
Excellent.
Well, so many great resourcesfor our listeners and again, I
could talk for another threehours with you two.
I appreciate you being gueststoday.
Jennifer (48:55):
We enjoy it so much.
Amanda (48:56):
Yeah, it was a pleasure..........
Dee (48:58):
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