March 30, 2024 • 25 mins
When the whispers of your heart echo a pagan path, the decision to share that truth can be as daunting as it is liberating. In our latest soul-stirring conversation, we traverse the complexities of 'Coming Out of the Broom Closet,' a rite of passage for many in the pagan community. I open up about my own journey, laying bare the intricacies of these deeply personal crossroads. We consider why one might choose to reveal their spiritual transformation and the consequences that follow — a melding of vulnerability with the empowering embrace of one's true self.
Navigating the intricate dance between personal belief and the perceptions of those we hold dear, we delve into the art of conversation with family and friends post-revelation. Sharing stories from my life, we dissect the best ways to bring those closest to us along on our spiritual evolution without breeding conflict. It's a delicate balance of educating the unfamiliar, quelling misconceptions, and shining a light on the enriching aspects of the pagan way. Whether you're considering opening up about your beliefs or supporting someone who is, our discussion is a guiding star for respectful and heartfelt communication.
We wrap up by dispelling the myths that shroud paganism in mystery and misunderstanding, with a practical guide for those ready to step out of the shadows. The breadth of our discussion extends to maintaining harmony within diverse belief systems and finding a supportive community, whether you're a newcomer or a seasoned practitioner. Indeed, this conversation is not just about the 'how' but also the 'why' of sharing your path — it's about connection, growth, and the universal quest for understanding that binds us all. Join us as we journey through enlightenment, support, and the joys of living a life aligned with the rhythm of the natural world.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt (00:11):
Intro Music Hello everyone , this is Matt bringing you
another edition of Old Gods andNew Pagans.
This is episode 4, coming Outof the Broom Closet.
So let's go ahead and diveright in.
Coming out of the broom closetwhat does this mean?
It's a common term used bypagans and people of
(00:32):
non-Abrahamic faiths to come outto the public, their friends,
family, co-workers, etc.
About their new spiritualityand their new belief systems.
There's some debate over theterm, but it's the most commonly
known, so that's what we'regoing with today.
So what does this mean?
Coming out of the broom closetis essentially telling your
friends and family about yournew spiritual path.
(00:53):
It's often done when leavingChristianity or really any other
Abrahamic faiths.
This can be a shock to thosearound you, so we're going to go
into why you should orshouldn't do it and how it will
affect others, includingyourself.
How should you Best practices,who do you tell, what do you say
and kind of next steps andmoving on.
(01:15):
So let's kind of go in.
So why would you come out toyour friends and family?
What do you gain from this andwhat's going on?
There's a couple of reasons whypeople do this.
One is really just as a shockfactor to family and friends.
When they're leaving, like theAbrahamic faiths, like
Christianity, when they'releaving their church, they're
kind of burnt a lot of let's seea lot of religious trauma going
(01:39):
on there, so they, you know,kind of want to shock their
friends and family.
Um, I'll tell you, this reallyonly works to alienate yourself
from your closest community ofyour family and friends.
Um, I don't recommend thisapproach and if that's the only
reason why you want to come outof the broom closet, I
personally don't recommend it.
Um, because one, it kind ofalienates yourself, like I said,
(02:02):
and it pushes everyone elseaway and you lose that community
and you lose those familyconnections and those
friendships along the way, andthat really doesn't have any
benefits, unless you justabsolutely want to burn some
bridges.
If this is your only reason tocome out, I wouldn't do it.
Another reason is just to behonest with yourself and the
(02:24):
people around you.
But another reason is just tobe honest with yourself and the
people around you.
This is a really good reasonand you should explain, or use
this as a moment to explain,what paganism is to those around
you and kind of the path you'regoing on.
Another reason would be to tryto bring others into your
(02:45):
practice.
This is kind of a weird onebecause pagans don't typically
recruit.
I'm not saying that paganismcan't recruit other people to
the spirituality, but that'sreally not what paganism is
about.
It's kind of finding your ownpath, not pulling people kicking
and screaming into ours.
But we kind of welcome otherswith open arms.
(03:07):
Like with paganism, the doorsare always open.
So we welcome anyone in toexplore the path, no matter
where they come from, even thoseAbrahamic fates.
We do not push anyone else awayunless there are some like
problematic things going on withthat Typically white supremacy.
A lot of this is xenophobia andthe gatekeeping that happens in
(03:30):
some of the branches of paganism.
We kind of shun some of thatstuff and we kind of push it
away.
We shouldn't completelyostracize those people because
we want to keep those lines ofcommunication open, which is
going back to the earlier pointabout you know, coming out to
shock family and friends.
It really isn't helpful becauseyou still want to keep those
(03:51):
lines of dialogue open.
Don't burn your bridges,because you know if you can open
their eyes to what paganism isand what it means for you, you
can build some closerelationships with these people.
You know we can agree todisagree on some of this stuff,
guys.
We can have these people in ourlives that are not pagan, but
we can keep those friendlydialogues open.
(04:14):
Someone I work with he'sabsolutely Christian and I'm
absolutely pagan, but we havesome really good intellectual
discussions about some of thisstuff and it's really cool
because we're both interested ineach other's spirituality.
Even though we know we're notgoing to convert the other, it's
still a really nicecommunication that goes on
between us, kind of deep divinginto the lore, the history, the
(04:36):
mythology of both paths.
It's a lot of fun and thoseconnections are still strong and
those connections are stillvaluable.
So even though we don't reallyrecruit or bring people into our
(05:00):
path, we can still open thosedialogues, be honest with the
people around us and kind of thethree main reasons for coming
out of the broom closet to shockyour friends and family, to
recruit or to be honest withyourself.
I would recommend that you knowif you want to bring.
I would recommend that if youwant to talk to people and come
out of the broom closet, it'sreally just to be honest with
(05:21):
yourself and to be honest withthe people around you, to shock
friends and to recruit.
It doesn't work.
People are in their paths.
So the only thing we couldreally do is just show how we
live and give them an examplefor our lives, and if that's
what they want, then they willcome to paganism on their own.
Recruiting is a Christian thingand I think we should kind of
(05:44):
distance ourselves from thatsort of thing.
So another you know question islike how do you come out to
your friends and family about it?
First, you know, make sure youknow enough to answer the most
basic questions they will ask,because you know they're going
to ask those questions.
You should approach this verycalmly.
(06:04):
Questions you should approachthis very calmly.
Don't start an argument, don'tget all emotional and angry and
start throwing things aroundlike your religion sucks, things
like that.
You should distance yourselffrom those things.
Try to stay calm, come into thiswith an open mind, an open
heart and create those lines ofdialogue and discuss these
things civilly with the personyou're coming out to.
(06:26):
You want to establish thatlevel of trust, that level of
openness.
Whatever emotions you bring tothe table will influence the
person you're talking to.
So if you come with anger,they're going to reply with
anger.
If you come with fear, they'regoing to kind of push that off
too and they'll notice that.
So don't be argumentative,don't be hostile, otherwise the
(06:48):
person you're talking to willmirror those emotions and it's
not productive at all.
You should explain that this iswhat makes you happy and at
peace spiritually.
I can't stress this enough.
When you open these dialoguesand you talk to somebody about
your new pagan path, you shouldlet them know that this is what
(07:11):
makes you happy and it puts youat peace and you're not afraid,
you're not scared, you're not um, you don't have all these
negative emotions anymorebecause, like for me and my
personal path, like I had somany negative emotions.
I had anger, rage, I was areally, really violent person in
my mind.
When I started going down thispagan path, I started gaining so
(07:37):
much peace.
Like it's unreal the differencein my own personal like
mentality.
You know, coming down this pathbecause I was pushed into
Christianity for so long and allthese rules and everything like
that that I never agreed with.
But I just followed it becauseculturally, living in the South,
that's just what you did.
But when I was honest withmyself about my pagan
(08:00):
spirituality and I'm apracticing animist, so I'm more
about the nature, less about thegods uh, myself personally.
So when I started spending moretime in nature and really
focusing on that, like all thosenegative emotions kind of went
out the door.
So explain that to your friendsand family.
If that's your path, if that'syou know how you feel that
(08:22):
that's a good thing to bring up,that it's less negativity in
your mind, your heart, and itreally pushes you into a more
open, happier place.
I don't recommend starting withany criticisms of your previous
religion Christianity, judaism,islam, any other religions.
(08:42):
Don't start with criticismslike your religion sucks and all
these things in your book thatdon't add up.
Leave that stuff alone.
That's for a debate later.
But when you're coming out toyour friends and family, I would
recommend staying away fromthose sorts of things.
It just creates debates,creates arguments and it's not
(09:02):
productive.
It just creates debates,creates arguments and it's not
productive.
It will do nothing but widenthe divide between you and the
other people.
Just learn from my experience.
When I first started going downthis pagan path, I was posting
all the edgy memes on theinternet, on social media, and
getting in arguments with peoplein my friends list about you
(09:23):
know certain things and likewhen they post something about
their religion I would like maketheir, make some witty comments
and it never did good.
I lost a lot of Facebookfriends over that and uh, you
know it is what it is, um, butyou know, thinking back, you
know I kind of regret breakingthose connections because those
(09:44):
were some good people and peopleI really cared about and
they're kind of out of my lifenow.
But you know it is what it is.
So try to stay away from thecriticisms of your previous
religion and, just, you know,again, approach it calmly and
talk about positive things,about your happiness, your peace
, etc.
And try to explain to thepeople what really draws you to
(10:06):
the path.
And try to explain to thepeople what really draws you to
the path.
Another thing to consider of whyand why not and how to come out
to your friends and familyconsider that there may be some
backlash.
If you're a minor, if you're achild, how will your parents
react?
I don't condone lying to yourparents or keeping things from
(10:27):
them, but just consider howthey're going to react.
Are you going to be grounded?
Are you going to be forced intochurch, things like that?
Consider those things in depth.
Consider the futureramifications of what this is
going to cause in your familysituation.
As a child or living at home,you can't just leave.
(10:55):
So consider how your parentswill react to this.
Don't try to set up a littlealtar in secret and try to hide
it from your parents, becausethey'll find it.
They will.
I mean that's a given.
Your parents have access toyour room.
They can't hide anything fromthem.
So just consider that when youcome out and again, be open, Be
respectful to these people, berespectful to your parents and
(11:19):
stay calm.
Consider how your spouse mayreact, because there can be some
division in there.
You know arguments about howyou raise your children and
things like that.
So again, stay calm, approachthis with an open mind and kind
of go through that.
(11:39):
Um, then you start wondering.
You know, like, who do you tellfirst?
Then you start wondering youknow, like, who do you tell
first?
I believe in like.
You have circles of peoplearound you.
So you have the people that arelike, directly around you.
That's going to be your spouse,your children, if you're living
(12:01):
at home, your parents,roommates, whatever.
Those are the people that youknow are around you.
Then you have, you know, awider group of friends,
coworkers, and then you have thepublic at large, you know.
Then you have, you know, awider group of friends,
coworkers, and then you have thepublic at large.
You know you have like threerings of people and
relationships around you.
With who do you tell?
First, you know, prioritizethose who need to know and kind
of start in that closest circle,like, okay, so your spouse,
(12:21):
your parents, your roommates,your girlfriend, boyfriend, you
know the people living therewith you.
Like do they need to know?
Like are you going to churchanymore?
So obviously you should.
You know, let that person knowthat, hey, this is my path, I'm
not doing this, other thingsanymore.
I do recommend that even if yourspouse does stay with the
Abrahamic you know they'reChristian, whatever you know you
(12:44):
can still go to church withthem, you know, be with them.
You don't have to believe whatthey believe, you don't have to
go through all the motions.
You can be respectful and stilloffer support to your spouse.
Me being pagan for severalyears now, I still will go to
the church just to show my wifesupport.
That's just who I am and it'sokay.
(13:05):
Like you won't burn the churchdown just by stepping in the
doors and you don't have toagree with what they agree with,
but you can show support toyour family and friends that you
actually love.
So again, start with thoseclosest to you your spouse, your
children, your parents.
You know, if they need to know,let them know.
Some people simply just don'tneed to know your co-workers,
(13:28):
like business clients, yourextended family, the cousin that
you haven't talked to in 20years like, do you really need
to ring them up and tell them,hey, I'm a pagan.
Now, it's kind of silly.
It's like do you really need togo into these details about
your spirituality?
And you know, with paganismthat's really kind of a personal
(13:53):
thing, like it's not somethingthat you wear.
Well, I say it's not somethingyou wear on the outside, but my
shirt kind of shows it right now.
But really, like, do thesepeople at large need to know the
intricate details of yourspirituality?
Probably not.
Um, you know again, kind of gowith that need to know.
(14:14):
These are your coworkers, yourclients, your extended family.
So if you have a coworkerthat's constantly inviting you
out to their church or to thisor that or to other religious
things, maybe you can kind ofpull them aside and say, hey,
you know, thank you for theinvitation, but I just want you
to know I do not follow thatreligion, I am on a different
path.
And you know, again, as I saidbefore, stay calm, stay
(14:36):
respectful and just kind of moveon.
Just say, hey, you know, Iappreciate the invitation but
I'm respectfully declining.
You know it's a respectfullydeclining, you know it's a
polite way to do this and to,yeah, just keep those
relationships open.
So if you have those coworkersthat have a different path, you
know you can talk to them andyou know, keep those lines of
(14:57):
communication open so that maybethey eventually come down your
path.
You know it's something likethat.
You can kind of help themunderstand.
And that's one thing that Iwant to do with this podcast is
kind of open that level ofdialogue and maybe open up
people's eyes to paganismbecoming more mainstream so
(15:20):
people would understand it moreand they're not just like devil
worshipers over there.
You know they're people withlives and you know our moral
compass isn't broken.
You know we have real strongmorals in the pagan community
and we want to show that.
You know and like kind ofmoving on.
(15:41):
You know when you think about,you know who you tell how.
You tell them what you know dothey need to know?
You know you think about whatdo you tell them?
You tell them what do they needto know?
You think about what do youtell them?
Again, what they need to know.
They need to know what paganismis.
It's a nature based beliefsystem.
In its core it's not amonotheistic religion like
Christianity, islam, judaism orany of the other monotheistic
(16:03):
religions.
You know we believe in multiplegods and goddesses, or
sometimes none at all.
There are animist pagans outthere that don't really believe
specifically in the gods andgoddesses and that they're just
aspects of either the naturalworld or human nature.
So let people know that youknow specifically what you
believe and let them know thatthese are very old belief
(16:26):
systems that go beyond some ofthe newer religions like
Christianity and Islam.
So let them know that these areold belief systems and that
you're getting back to yourroots.
You know that's kind of whatsets us apart from a lot of the
major religions.
(16:47):
When talking about paganism,it's kind of fun to let them
know that pagan originates fromthe Latin paganus, which was
just used at the end of theRoman Empire to name those who
practiced a religion other thanChristianity, judaism etc.
It really just meant countrydweller.
It was likely a name givenbecause Christianity really
spread more quickly in citieswhere people were kind of like
(17:09):
following the new fad, the newfashion in the city, and then
those people in the country wereless likely to convert or later
to convert.
So they just kind of calledthem the period equivalent of
like hillbilly or redneck or youknow those country folks over
there.
So that's kind of where theterm pagan come from.
It's a little fun fact that Ilike to, you know, tell people
(17:31):
that pagan was really just itwas almost the level of a
derogatory term at the time, butwe've embraced it and we
continue on it because it's thebest thing.
That kind of explains us.
You know we're the people outin the country, we're the nature
worshipers, you know it's alsoimportant to tell people what
paganism is not.
Paganism is not devil worship.
(17:52):
Most pagans don't believe inthe devil or even believe in the
concept of an all evil being.
So that's kind of important tolet them know that, like you
know, just because we're pagan,you know we don't really follow
that devil thing Because that'sa, you know, strictly Christian
ideal is the devil.
Paganism isn't about humansacrifice.
(18:15):
Important to let them know thatmany religions, even including
the Abrahamic, included humansacrifice at one time.
Not any longer.
Paganism doesn't practice that,and neither does Judaism.
I mean, I've Common story inthe Christian Bible or the Old
Testament.
Is Abraham willingly going tosacrifice his son?
(18:38):
So if he was going to do that,you've got to consider that
human sacrifice was part of thatreligion at one time too.
So when people want to ask,does pagans practice human
sacrifice, the answer is no, notanymore.
None of the religions do, butmost of them did at some point.
It's important to kind ofconsider that Also.
(19:03):
What paganism is not is it's notabout hedonism, the pursuit of
pleasure and self-indulgenceover everything else.
Most pagans take a conservativeapproach to life in order to
not upset any balances.
Most pagans take a conservativeapproach to life in order to
not upset any balances.
We don't have any of thesestrict moral rules of sexuality
that some of the religions do.
So that may be why we get thatidea of hedonism, that we're not
(19:40):
strictly confined by theserulesence or um celibacy and
things like that, and so thatmay be why we get that image.
But most pagans are veryconservative in their approach
of life.
So now that you've come out ofthe broom closet, you know,
you've kind of figured out whoyou need to tell, what you're
going to tell them, how you'regoing to tell them this Again,
calmly.
What should you do after that?
(20:00):
Once you've told them then whathappens?
Or you know, kind of going on,you should just continue on with
your life.
Some people that you tell willtake it well, others will not.
There's nothing you can doabout that.
How they react is on them, noton you.
As long as you approached itcalmly, you didn't create anger
(20:21):
division with your words andactions, you know anything that
they reciprocate on their end ison them.
Try not to burn any bridges.
Allow you know.
Once you've provided thatinformation you know, step back.
Allow your family and friendsto process and understand what
you've told them.
Next step is to learn and togrow.
Continue on your path.
Learn your path.
Study your mythology if you'refollowing one of the different
(20:45):
pantheons, learn into the godsand goddesses of your chosen
path and really dive deep, notjust to them as people or as
gods, but really focus on whatthey represented.
So you have, you know, the godOdin, and he represents wisdom
(21:07):
as one of his representations.
You know, really think aboutwhat wisdom means, and you know
the pursuit of knowledge thatOdin embodied, you know.
Take that upon yourself.
And you know the pursuit ofknowledge that odin embodied,
you know.
Take that upon yourself.
Pursue the knowledge.
Learn as much as you can aboutthis stuff and learn as much as
you can about the natural worldbeyond the pagan path you've
chose.
It's so powerful to learn like.
(21:29):
Like, if you see a plant youdon't understand, they've got
tons of apps out there.
Learn what that plant does.
You know all the differentalkaloids and the toxins or
medicines that are in that plant.
It's kind of fun to start likediving into the stuff and
understanding the natural worldand how everything is so
interconnected and how balancesare kept in nature.
It's so interesting and Irecommend you kind of learn in.
(21:52):
You know, lean into that andlearn and grow more.
Another big thing you know whatdo you do is you make
connections.
You continue to connect withyour friends and family, even
though they are not on yourpagan path.
Don't allow yourself to bebullied or disrespected, though,
and do not bully and disrespectothers, people that are not on
(22:13):
the path.
It's very important.
You know we're.
It's very important.
We're trying to make theseconnections.
We're trying to build publicawareness and understanding of
paganism.
If you're always combative, itdoes nothing but harm the
community at large and Irecommend finding a good
community.
There are a number of pagancommunities out there that will
help you grow and find resources.
There are some problematiccommunities out there, but there
(22:36):
are also some really great ones.
If you have trouble finding acommunity that makes you feel
included and not problematic,definitely reach out to me on
social media email through thewebsite contact forms, whatever
Reach out to me, and socialmedia email through the website
contact forms, whatever Reachout to me, and I will help you
(22:57):
find a community.
Something we're kind of doingin the background is we're
building a nonprofitorganization called the Pagan
Project and one of the big goalsof that is the public awareness
aspect of paganism, but alsomaking those connections and
helping people connect with eachother in different communities,
(23:20):
finding the community that fitsthem.
We have one major communitythat allows everyone in, but if
you want a more niche communityspecifically to Celtic paganism,
slavic paganism, norse paganismetc.
We can help you find those.
Or indigenous pagan etc.
We can help you find those orindigenous pagan paths.
We can help you find thosedifferent communities that will
help you out.
(23:42):
So, to recap, when deciding totell people about your pagan
path or coming out of the broomcloset, remember a few things.
Why you want to tell them isjust be honest with yourself.
I'm telling you to be honestwith yourself of why you
actually want to tell people.
If it's just a shock and awecampaign, I recommend not trying
it.
It's going to do nothing butburn bridges and in the long run
(24:04):
, it's going to hurt you morethan it will help you.
Think about who you should tellOnly those that actually need to
know, like your close friendsand close family.
Not everyone needs to know.
Consider what you tell them.
Not everyone needs to know.
Consider what you tell them.
You know what they need to knowspecifically, just to ease
their minds and so that they cangain some understanding that
they can take and process later.
(24:26):
And you know what do you do next?
You continue on your path, youlearn and grow and you stay
connected with the people thatmatter to you, no matter what
their beliefs are.
It's all about makingconnections.
Even if we don't believe theexact same things, you know,
it's okay, we can still makethose connections and we can
still like support and help eachother.
So just remember, stay on thepath, explore all the
(24:48):
possibilities out there.
And, yeah, thanks for listening.
New episode will come out soonabout specifically explaining
your beliefs to the Christians,so it'll kind of help the next
steps on this.
So if you want to wait to comeout of the broom closet until
you hear that upcoming episode,do so.
(25:09):
Listen to the previous episodesabout what paganism is, what
animism is and kind of a littlebit of Norse paganism in there
too.
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Keep it real, guys.
Intro Music Hello everyone , this is Matt bringing you
another edition of Old Gods andNew Pagans.
This is episode 4, coming Outof the Broom Closet.
So let's go ahead and diveright in.
Coming out of the broom closetwhat does this mean?
It's a common term used bypagans and people of
(00:32):
non-Abrahamic faiths to come outto the public, their friends,
family, co-workers, etc.
About their new spiritualityand their new belief systems.
There's some debate over theterm, but it's the most commonly
known, so that's what we'regoing with today.
So what does this mean?
Coming out of the broom closetis essentially telling your
friends and family about yournew spiritual path.
(00:53):
It's often done when leavingChristianity or really any other
Abrahamic faiths.
This can be a shock to thosearound you, so we're going to go
into why you should orshouldn't do it and how it will
affect others, includingyourself.
How should you Best practices,who do you tell, what do you say
and kind of next steps andmoving on.
(01:15):
So let's kind of go in.
So why would you come out toyour friends and family?
What do you gain from this andwhat's going on?
There's a couple of reasons whypeople do this.
One is really just as a shockfactor to family and friends.
When they're leaving, like theAbrahamic faiths, like
Christianity, when they'releaving their church, they're
kind of burnt a lot of let's seea lot of religious trauma going
(01:39):
on there, so they, you know,kind of want to shock their
friends and family.
Um, I'll tell you, this reallyonly works to alienate yourself
from your closest community ofyour family and friends.
Um, I don't recommend thisapproach and if that's the only
reason why you want to come outof the broom closet, I
personally don't recommend it.
Um, because one, it kind ofalienates yourself, like I said,
(02:02):
and it pushes everyone elseaway and you lose that community
and you lose those familyconnections and those
friendships along the way, andthat really doesn't have any
benefits, unless you justabsolutely want to burn some
bridges.
If this is your only reason tocome out, I wouldn't do it.
Another reason is just to behonest with yourself and the
(02:24):
people around you.
But another reason is just tobe honest with yourself and the
people around you.
This is a really good reasonand you should explain, or use
this as a moment to explain,what paganism is to those around
you and kind of the path you'regoing on.
Another reason would be to tryto bring others into your
(02:45):
practice.
This is kind of a weird onebecause pagans don't typically
recruit.
I'm not saying that paganismcan't recruit other people to
the spirituality, but that'sreally not what paganism is
about.
It's kind of finding your ownpath, not pulling people kicking
and screaming into ours.
But we kind of welcome otherswith open arms.
(03:07):
Like with paganism, the doorsare always open.
So we welcome anyone in toexplore the path, no matter
where they come from, even thoseAbrahamic fates.
We do not push anyone else awayunless there are some like
problematic things going on withthat Typically white supremacy.
A lot of this is xenophobia andthe gatekeeping that happens in
(03:30):
some of the branches of paganism.
We kind of shun some of thatstuff and we kind of push it
away.
We shouldn't completelyostracize those people because
we want to keep those lines ofcommunication open, which is
going back to the earlier pointabout you know, coming out to
shock family and friends.
It really isn't helpful becauseyou still want to keep those
(03:51):
lines of dialogue open.
Don't burn your bridges,because you know if you can open
their eyes to what paganism isand what it means for you, you
can build some closerelationships with these people.
You know we can agree todisagree on some of this stuff,
guys.
We can have these people in ourlives that are not pagan, but
we can keep those friendlydialogues open.
(04:14):
Someone I work with he'sabsolutely Christian and I'm
absolutely pagan, but we havesome really good intellectual
discussions about some of thisstuff and it's really cool
because we're both interested ineach other's spirituality.
Even though we know we're notgoing to convert the other, it's
still a really nicecommunication that goes on
between us, kind of deep divinginto the lore, the history, the
(04:36):
mythology of both paths.
It's a lot of fun and thoseconnections are still strong and
those connections are stillvaluable.
So even though we don't reallyrecruit or bring people into our
(05:00):
path, we can still open thosedialogues, be honest with the
people around us and kind of thethree main reasons for coming
out of the broom closet to shockyour friends and family, to
recruit or to be honest withyourself.
I would recommend that you knowif you want to bring.
I would recommend that if youwant to talk to people and come
out of the broom closet, it'sreally just to be honest with
(05:21):
yourself and to be honest withthe people around you, to shock
friends and to recruit.
It doesn't work.
People are in their paths.
So the only thing we couldreally do is just show how we
live and give them an examplefor our lives, and if that's
what they want, then they willcome to paganism on their own.
Recruiting is a Christian thingand I think we should kind of
(05:44):
distance ourselves from thatsort of thing.
So another you know question islike how do you come out to
your friends and family about it?
First, you know, make sure youknow enough to answer the most
basic questions they will ask,because you know they're going
to ask those questions.
You should approach this verycalmly.
(06:04):
Questions you should approachthis very calmly.
Don't start an argument, don'tget all emotional and angry and
start throwing things aroundlike your religion sucks, things
like that.
You should distance yourselffrom those things.
Try to stay calm, come into thiswith an open mind, an open
heart and create those lines ofdialogue and discuss these
things civilly with the personyou're coming out to.
(06:26):
You want to establish thatlevel of trust, that level of
openness.
Whatever emotions you bring tothe table will influence the
person you're talking to.
So if you come with anger,they're going to reply with
anger.
If you come with fear, they'regoing to kind of push that off
too and they'll notice that.
So don't be argumentative,don't be hostile, otherwise the
(06:48):
person you're talking to willmirror those emotions and it's
not productive at all.
You should explain that this iswhat makes you happy and at
peace spiritually.
I can't stress this enough.
When you open these dialoguesand you talk to somebody about
your new pagan path, you shouldlet them know that this is what
(07:11):
makes you happy and it puts youat peace and you're not afraid,
you're not scared, you're not um, you don't have all these
negative emotions anymorebecause, like for me and my
personal path, like I had somany negative emotions.
I had anger, rage, I was areally, really violent person in
my mind.
When I started going down thispagan path, I started gaining so
(07:37):
much peace.
Like it's unreal the differencein my own personal like
mentality.
You know, coming down this pathbecause I was pushed into
Christianity for so long and allthese rules and everything like
that that I never agreed with.
But I just followed it becauseculturally, living in the South,
that's just what you did.
But when I was honest withmyself about my pagan
(08:00):
spirituality and I'm apracticing animist, so I'm more
about the nature, less about thegods uh, myself personally.
So when I started spending moretime in nature and really
focusing on that, like all thosenegative emotions kind of went
out the door.
So explain that to your friendsand family.
If that's your path, if that'syou know how you feel that
(08:22):
that's a good thing to bring up,that it's less negativity in
your mind, your heart, and itreally pushes you into a more
open, happier place.
I don't recommend starting withany criticisms of your previous
religion Christianity, judaism,islam, any other religions.
(08:42):
Don't start with criticismslike your religion sucks and all
these things in your book thatdon't add up.
Leave that stuff alone.
That's for a debate later.
But when you're coming out toyour friends and family, I would
recommend staying away fromthose sorts of things.
It just creates debates,creates arguments and it's not
(09:02):
productive.
It just creates debates,creates arguments and it's not
productive.
It will do nothing but widenthe divide between you and the
other people.
Just learn from my experience.
When I first started going downthis pagan path, I was posting
all the edgy memes on theinternet, on social media, and
getting in arguments with peoplein my friends list about you
(09:23):
know certain things and likewhen they post something about
their religion I would like maketheir, make some witty comments
and it never did good.
I lost a lot of Facebookfriends over that and uh, you
know it is what it is, um, butyou know, thinking back, you
know I kind of regret breakingthose connections because those
(09:44):
were some good people and peopleI really cared about and
they're kind of out of my lifenow.
But you know it is what it is.
So try to stay away from thecriticisms of your previous
religion and, just, you know,again, approach it calmly and
talk about positive things,about your happiness, your peace
, etc.
And try to explain to thepeople what really draws you to
(10:06):
the path.
And try to explain to thepeople what really draws you to
the path.
Another thing to consider of whyand why not and how to come out
to your friends and familyconsider that there may be some
backlash.
If you're a minor, if you're achild, how will your parents
react?
I don't condone lying to yourparents or keeping things from
(10:27):
them, but just consider howthey're going to react.
Are you going to be grounded?
Are you going to be forced intochurch, things like that?
Consider those things in depth.
Consider the futureramifications of what this is
going to cause in your familysituation.
As a child or living at home,you can't just leave.
(10:55):
So consider how your parentswill react to this.
Don't try to set up a littlealtar in secret and try to hide
it from your parents, becausethey'll find it.
They will.
I mean that's a given.
Your parents have access toyour room.
They can't hide anything fromthem.
So just consider that when youcome out and again, be open, Be
respectful to these people, berespectful to your parents and
(11:19):
stay calm.
Consider how your spouse mayreact, because there can be some
division in there.
You know arguments about howyou raise your children and
things like that.
So again, stay calm, approachthis with an open mind and kind
of go through that.
(11:39):
Um, then you start wondering.
You know, like, who do you tellfirst?
Then you start wondering youknow, like, who do you tell
first?
I believe in like.
You have circles of peoplearound you.
So you have the people that arelike, directly around you.
That's going to be your spouse,your children, if you're living
(12:01):
at home, your parents,roommates, whatever.
Those are the people that youknow are around you.
Then you have, you know, awider group of friends,
coworkers, and then you have thepublic at large, you know.
Then you have, you know, awider group of friends,
coworkers, and then you have thepublic at large.
You know you have like threerings of people and
relationships around you.
With who do you tell?
First, you know, prioritizethose who need to know and kind
of start in that closest circle,like, okay, so your spouse,
(12:21):
your parents, your roommates,your girlfriend, boyfriend, you
know the people living therewith you.
Like do they need to know?
Like are you going to churchanymore?
So obviously you should.
You know, let that person knowthat, hey, this is my path, I'm
not doing this, other thingsanymore.
I do recommend that even if yourspouse does stay with the
Abrahamic you know they'reChristian, whatever you know you
(12:44):
can still go to church withthem, you know, be with them.
You don't have to believe whatthey believe, you don't have to
go through all the motions.
You can be respectful and stilloffer support to your spouse.
Me being pagan for severalyears now, I still will go to
the church just to show my wifesupport.
That's just who I am and it'sokay.
(13:05):
Like you won't burn the churchdown just by stepping in the
doors and you don't have toagree with what they agree with,
but you can show support toyour family and friends that you
actually love.
So again, start with thoseclosest to you your spouse, your
children, your parents.
You know, if they need to know,let them know.
Some people simply just don'tneed to know your co-workers,
(13:28):
like business clients, yourextended family, the cousin that
you haven't talked to in 20years like, do you really need
to ring them up and tell them,hey, I'm a pagan.
Now, it's kind of silly.
It's like do you really need togo into these details about
your spirituality?
And you know, with paganismthat's really kind of a personal
(13:53):
thing, like it's not somethingthat you wear.
Well, I say it's not somethingyou wear on the outside, but my
shirt kind of shows it right now.
But really, like, do thesepeople at large need to know the
intricate details of yourspirituality?
Probably not.
Um, you know again, kind of gowith that need to know.
(14:14):
These are your coworkers, yourclients, your extended family.
So if you have a coworkerthat's constantly inviting you
out to their church or to thisor that or to other religious
things, maybe you can kind ofpull them aside and say, hey,
you know, thank you for theinvitation, but I just want you
to know I do not follow thatreligion, I am on a different
path.
And you know, again, as I saidbefore, stay calm, stay
(14:36):
respectful and just kind of moveon.
Just say, hey, you know, Iappreciate the invitation but
I'm respectfully declining.
You know it's a respectfullydeclining, you know it's a
polite way to do this and to,yeah, just keep those
relationships open.
So if you have those coworkersthat have a different path, you
know you can talk to them andyou know, keep those lines of
(14:57):
communication open so that maybethey eventually come down your
path.
You know it's something likethat.
You can kind of help themunderstand.
And that's one thing that Iwant to do with this podcast is
kind of open that level ofdialogue and maybe open up
people's eyes to paganismbecoming more mainstream so
(15:20):
people would understand it moreand they're not just like devil
worshipers over there.
You know they're people withlives and you know our moral
compass isn't broken.
You know we have real strongmorals in the pagan community
and we want to show that.
You know and like kind ofmoving on.
(15:41):
You know when you think about,you know who you tell how.
You tell them what you know dothey need to know?
You know you think about whatdo you tell them?
You tell them what do they needto know?
You think about what do youtell them?
Again, what they need to know.
They need to know what paganismis.
It's a nature based beliefsystem.
In its core it's not amonotheistic religion like
Christianity, islam, judaism orany of the other monotheistic
(16:03):
religions.
You know we believe in multiplegods and goddesses, or
sometimes none at all.
There are animist pagans outthere that don't really believe
specifically in the gods andgoddesses and that they're just
aspects of either the naturalworld or human nature.
So let people know that youknow specifically what you
believe and let them know thatthese are very old belief
(16:26):
systems that go beyond some ofthe newer religions like
Christianity and Islam.
So let them know that these areold belief systems and that
you're getting back to yourroots.
You know that's kind of whatsets us apart from a lot of the
major religions.
(16:47):
When talking about paganism,it's kind of fun to let them
know that pagan originates fromthe Latin paganus, which was
just used at the end of theRoman Empire to name those who
practiced a religion other thanChristianity, judaism etc.
It really just meant countrydweller.
It was likely a name givenbecause Christianity really
spread more quickly in citieswhere people were kind of like
(17:09):
following the new fad, the newfashion in the city, and then
those people in the country wereless likely to convert or later
to convert.
So they just kind of calledthem the period equivalent of
like hillbilly or redneck or youknow those country folks over
there.
So that's kind of where theterm pagan come from.
It's a little fun fact that Ilike to, you know, tell people
(17:31):
that pagan was really just itwas almost the level of a
derogatory term at the time, butwe've embraced it and we
continue on it because it's thebest thing.
That kind of explains us.
You know we're the people outin the country, we're the nature
worshipers, you know it's alsoimportant to tell people what
paganism is not.
Paganism is not devil worship.
(17:52):
Most pagans don't believe inthe devil or even believe in the
concept of an all evil being.
So that's kind of important tolet them know that, like you
know, just because we're pagan,you know we don't really follow
that devil thing Because that'sa, you know, strictly Christian
ideal is the devil.
Paganism isn't about humansacrifice.
(18:15):
Important to let them know thatmany religions, even including
the Abrahamic, included humansacrifice at one time.
Not any longer.
Paganism doesn't practice that,and neither does Judaism.
I mean, I've Common story inthe Christian Bible or the Old
Testament.
Is Abraham willingly going tosacrifice his son?
(18:38):
So if he was going to do that,you've got to consider that
human sacrifice was part of thatreligion at one time too.
So when people want to ask,does pagans practice human
sacrifice, the answer is no, notanymore.
None of the religions do, butmost of them did at some point.
It's important to kind ofconsider that Also.
(19:03):
What paganism is not is it's notabout hedonism, the pursuit of
pleasure and self-indulgenceover everything else.
Most pagans take a conservativeapproach to life in order to
not upset any balances.
Most pagans take a conservativeapproach to life in order to
not upset any balances.
We don't have any of thesestrict moral rules of sexuality
that some of the religions do.
So that may be why we get thatidea of hedonism, that we're not
(19:40):
strictly confined by theserulesence or um celibacy and
things like that, and so thatmay be why we get that image.
But most pagans are veryconservative in their approach
of life.
So now that you've come out ofthe broom closet, you know,
you've kind of figured out whoyou need to tell, what you're
going to tell them, how you'regoing to tell them this Again,
calmly.
What should you do after that?
(20:00):
Once you've told them then whathappens?
Or you know, kind of going on,you should just continue on with
your life.
Some people that you tell willtake it well, others will not.
There's nothing you can doabout that.
How they react is on them, noton you.
As long as you approached itcalmly, you didn't create anger
(20:21):
division with your words andactions, you know anything that
they reciprocate on their end ison them.
Try not to burn any bridges.
Allow you know.
Once you've provided thatinformation you know, step back.
Allow your family and friendsto process and understand what
you've told them.
Next step is to learn and togrow.
Continue on your path.
Learn your path.
Study your mythology if you'refollowing one of the different
(20:45):
pantheons, learn into the godsand goddesses of your chosen
path and really dive deep, notjust to them as people or as
gods, but really focus on whatthey represented.
So you have, you know, the godOdin, and he represents wisdom
(21:07):
as one of his representations.
You know, really think aboutwhat wisdom means, and you know
the pursuit of knowledge thatOdin embodied, you know.
Take that upon yourself.
And you know the pursuit ofknowledge that odin embodied,
you know.
Take that upon yourself.
Pursue the knowledge.
Learn as much as you can aboutthis stuff and learn as much as
you can about the natural worldbeyond the pagan path you've
chose.
It's so powerful to learn like.
(21:29):
Like, if you see a plant youdon't understand, they've got
tons of apps out there.
Learn what that plant does.
You know all the differentalkaloids and the toxins or
medicines that are in that plant.
It's kind of fun to start likediving into the stuff and
understanding the natural worldand how everything is so
interconnected and how balancesare kept in nature.
It's so interesting and Irecommend you kind of learn in.
(21:52):
You know, lean into that andlearn and grow more.
Another big thing you know whatdo you do is you make
connections.
You continue to connect withyour friends and family, even
though they are not on yourpagan path.
Don't allow yourself to bebullied or disrespected, though,
and do not bully and disrespectothers, people that are not on
(22:13):
the path.
It's very important.
You know we're.
It's very important.
We're trying to make theseconnections.
We're trying to build publicawareness and understanding of
paganism.
If you're always combative, itdoes nothing but harm the
community at large and Irecommend finding a good
community.
There are a number of pagancommunities out there that will
help you grow and find resources.
There are some problematiccommunities out there, but there
(22:36):
are also some really great ones.
If you have trouble finding acommunity that makes you feel
included and not problematic,definitely reach out to me on
social media email through thewebsite contact forms, whatever
Reach out to me, and socialmedia email through the website
contact forms, whatever Reachout to me, and I will help you
(22:57):
find a community.
Something we're kind of doingin the background is we're
building a nonprofitorganization called the Pagan
Project and one of the big goalsof that is the public awareness
aspect of paganism, but alsomaking those connections and
helping people connect with eachother in different communities,
(23:20):
finding the community that fitsthem.
We have one major communitythat allows everyone in, but if
you want a more niche communityspecifically to Celtic paganism,
slavic paganism, norse paganismetc.
We can help you find those.
Or indigenous pagan etc.
We can help you find those orindigenous pagan paths.
We can help you find thosedifferent communities that will
help you out.
(23:42):
So, to recap, when deciding totell people about your pagan
path or coming out of the broomcloset, remember a few things.
Why you want to tell them isjust be honest with yourself.
I'm telling you to be honestwith yourself of why you
actually want to tell people.
If it's just a shock and awecampaign, I recommend not trying
it.
It's going to do nothing butburn bridges and in the long run
(24:04):
, it's going to hurt you morethan it will help you.
Think about who you should tellOnly those that actually need to
know, like your close friendsand close family.
Not everyone needs to know.
Consider what you tell them.
Not everyone needs to know.
Consider what you tell them.
You know what they need to knowspecifically, just to ease
their minds and so that they cangain some understanding that
they can take and process later.
(24:26):
And you know what do you do next?
You continue on your path, youlearn and grow and you stay
connected with the people thatmatter to you, no matter what
their beliefs are.
It's all about makingconnections.
Even if we don't believe theexact same things, you know,
it's okay, we can still makethose connections and we can
still like support and help eachother.
So just remember, stay on thepath, explore all the
(24:48):
possibilities out there.
And, yeah, thanks for listening.
New episode will come out soonabout specifically explaining
your beliefs to the Christians,so it'll kind of help the next
steps on this.
So if you want to wait to comeout of the broom closet until
you hear that upcoming episode,do so.
(25:09):
Listen to the previous episodesabout what paganism is, what
animism is and kind of a littlebit of Norse paganism in there
too.
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Keep it real, guys.
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