June 10, 2025 • 30 mins
The fabulous Jenny Wood shares her journey from a corporate powerhouse at Google to empowering others to chase what they want in life. She’s flipping the script on traits that women often shy away from, like being “selfish” or “obsessed.” We’re talking about how these can actually be superpowers when it comes to achieving your goals.
🌟 Guest: JENNY WOOD
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome, you're on air withElla, where we share simple strategies
and tips for living a littlebetter every day. If you're interested
in mindset and wellness orhealthy habits and relationships,
honestly, if you're into justliving better and with more energy,
then you're in the rightplace. We're not here for perfect.
We're here for a little betterevery day. Let's go. Hey, you're
(00:26):
on air with Ella. And today Iam joined by Jenny Wood. Hey, Jenny,
how are you?
Good. How's it going, Ella?
Ah, it's going well. I wouldlove it if you could tell us who
you are and what you do.
I'm Jenny Wood. I am a keynotespeaker, a, an executive coach, one
on one small group coaching.And I have a newsletter that helps
(00:47):
people go after what they wantand get it. I'm also. Oh, I forgot
that I'm the author of the NewYork Times bestselling book Wild
Courage. Go after what youwant and get it. Only. Only like
my, my, my love child. Thelast four years of my life.
It was bound to come up, Jenny.
And maybe I have PTSD from howmuch time, energy and money I put
(01:08):
into this bad boy and so Ijust plopped it out.
No, I love, I love the book.
And I'm so excited to share itwith the world. I'm actually exceptionally
proud of this book. I thinkthat people, women, have a hard time
saying that they're proud ofsomething. I am so damn proud of
this book, it freaking rocks.
I am proud of you being proudof this book. And thanks for my copy
of Wild Courage. I'll besharing that with everybody at the
(01:30):
end of the episode. But Ireally want to talk to you about
not just the principles thatyou espouse, Jenny, but the ones
that have been behind yourextensive career for years and years
and years. I want to say an 18year tenure at Google, Former Harvard
Business school researcher.Tell me about that.
Yeah, I did three years doingresearch at Harvard. One year negotiations,
(01:52):
One year technologicalsubstitution and one year organizational
behavior managementleadership, figuring out how people
tick within organizations.
Congratulations. Because Ihave to commend you one more time
because normally if somebody'svegan or they went to Harvard, you
find out about it first. Likeit's the first thing you hear. So
you have shown enormousrestraint. Are you vegan?
I am not vegan. But I will saythere is a joke that goes, how do
(02:16):
you know if there's a pilot ata party? Don't worry, they'll tell
you. Yeah, always same idea.So Now I feel like I have to say,
I am also a pilot.
Wait, are you?
I am.
Okay, you guys, I promise you,we're going to be talking about things
that will stick with you forthe rest of your life. But first
I need to know, when did youget your pilot's license?
Right before I got engaged. So2013ish. And I got it because I just
(02:42):
moved to Ann Arbor with myboyfriend at the time who was in
business school there. I wasworking at Google, and I was so damn
tired of being impatient forhim to propose to me. I was like,
well, I'm just going to dosomething that takes my mind off
of it. And I'm like such anot. Not kind of like, wait for the
ring kind of girl. I mean, I.I can tell you how what started this
whole book in 2011, which wasa subway ride, which we should definitely
(03:03):
talk about, but so I'mdefinitely a go after what you want
and get it kind of girlmyself, but still, traditionally
was waiting for him topropose. And then I just got sick
of waiting around and I justneeded. I needed a new hobby. So
I went and got my pilot's.
License, as one does. Are youinstrument rated?
No, I'm not. And I would. Ilike, barely have time to fly.
Right now, so that takesnothing away from your accomplishment.
(03:25):
The fact that you're asking ifI'm instrument rated tells me that
you know things about being aprivate pilot.
Okay, we'll talk about it later.
Okay.
Oh, my gosh. I love this, youguys. That's the most impressive
thing I've learned about Jennyso far, and she's a very impressive
person. Okay, the second mostinteresting thing that I've learned
about you, Jenny, is a story Iwant you to share with us, and it
ties back to 2011. Please,please tell us the story that I happen
(03:47):
to know, because I read yourbook, but please tell us the story
of how you met your husband.And spoiler alert. By chasing him
off the subway.
Yeah. So it's 2011. I'm ridingthe subway home from work in New
York city, and about 20ft awayfrom me stands this really good looking
guy. Gorgeous blue eyes, thickbrown wavy hair, the whole works.
And even though I want to talkto him, something holds me back.
(04:09):
What if he's a convictedfelon? What if he's married? What
if a hundred people stare atme, this packed train, while I make
a fool of myself? Well, Ilater came to realize that underneath
those questions were fearsthat hold so many people back and
fears that had held me back somuch of life. Fear of failure.
Well, rejection.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, fear ofrejection or failure, I'd call it.
Maybe kind of similar, like.But fear of uncertainty, fear of
(04:31):
judgment of others. What if ahundred people stare at me and think,
like, look at this girl makinga fool of herself? So I sit there
and I do nothing as the trainpasses stop after stop after stop,
and as life passes me by. ButI make a deal with the universe,
and I say, if he gets off atmy stop, then maybe I'll try to strike
up a conversation with him.And if not, then say lovey. He gets
off at the next stop, and Islump down in my seat, thinking,
(04:52):
oh, like such a, you know,missed opportunity. And then, just
as the doors are about toclose, I feel this wave of, no joke,
wild courage wash over me andpractically push me out of my subway
seat and off that damn train.And I chase to catch up with him.
I tap him on the shoulder ashe's exiting the station, and I say,
excuse me. I'm sorry to botheryou. You're wearing gloves, so I
(05:14):
can't tell if you're wearing awedding ring, but in the event that
you're not married, you wereon my subway, and I thought you were
cute. Any chance I could giveyou my business card? And then I
wait for what feels likeforever, thinking, this was a terrible
idea. But then eventually, hetakes the card, he calls the next
day, we go on a date a weeklater, and we've now been married
11 years with two smallchildren. So wild courage for you,
(05:37):
baby.
It's not just courage. It'swild. I know.
Well, people often ask, like,what's the difference between courage
and wild courage? Mostly Isay, well, it all started with me
chasing a damn stranger off asubway. So, yeah, there you go.
There's a reason, obviously,that I wanted to ask you about that
story, but tell me something.Connect this a little bit to the
courage that you took in, toyour career, particularly at Google,
(06:02):
which I would imagine wasparticularly challenging an environment
to stand out in. Tell me aboutit. And tell me what wild courage
meant in that environment.
Hmm. Such a good call. Out. Soit really was the day that I adopted
wild courage as a habit. And Iapplied it to my relationships, to
my personal life, and mostimportantly, to my professional life.
So it was about asking my VPto meet with me once a quarter and
(06:27):
mentor me. It was aboutseparating the big and important
stuff at work from the smalland unimportant stuff. It was about
avoiding what I call Nap work,not actually promotable work. Being
the person to take notes inevery meeting. Being the person to
always plan the company offsite picnic, right? Like some of
the things that have to getdone. Some people call this glue
work or, or invisible work. Icall it nap work. Not actually promotable
(06:49):
work. And so I stopped doingthat. I had the wild courage to say
no without feeling like ajerk. I had the wild courage to,
you know, push the engineers.I was on an operations team that
sat between sales andengineering, and I led a global team
of people who are helpingimprove Google's ad products. Instead
of saying, well, who am I togive feedback to the engineers, like,
I just had the wild courage tothoughtfully disagree with some strategy
(07:11):
direction or product directionbecause I knew it would better serve
the customers. So in all theseareas, I started being more bold,
being more selfish, being inthe best way, being more shameless,
and how I would promote my, myown work and advocate for my team.
So I grew, you know, keptgetting promoted, ultimately having
various kinds of COO typeroles within Google. And then one
(07:32):
day walking out of anengineering meeting where I was delivering
some bugs, I said, well, maybeI'll try to tap into my wild courage
even more and spread thismessage further. So I put together
a career development programat Google, a document initially of
my best career tips forGooglers to help them get promoted.
And so I did that on a pieceof, on a Google Doc. And I thought
maybe 35 people would come tothis training. I was going to lead
(07:52):
based on this doc. Well, 2,000people came to that first training,
Ella. And then ultimately thisprogram grew to 56,000 Googlers using
it across almost 100countries. So I think that was actually
the moment. Founding this ownyour career program as a passion
project, that was like themost wild, wild, couragey thing I
did in my career. Because Igot no approvals. I didn't talk to
anybody in HR or peopleoperations or comms or legal. I just
(08:15):
did it. And I knew that I wasdoing it in all the right ways, but
I just did it without runningit up every inch of the flagpole,
only for it to die in committee.
Yeah, we asked for permissiontoo much. And by we I'm gonna go
ahead and say women, we askfor permission too much.
Totally.
Okay. There's several lessonsin there for us. And one I'm just
going to underscore, youcovered it well, but I'm just going
to underscore the necessity,necessity of avoiding nap work. Great
(08:40):
acronym. Not actuallypromotable. That is work that Women,
the data suggests, tend tostep up for more because we have,
of course, tied our value andour worth to our productivity. And
what is the error in that?From your position, you're not being
selfish enough.
Right. And selfish is one ofthese, one of the nine traits that
(09:02):
I help people reclaim. To me,selfish is the courage, the wild
courage to be your ownchampion. Give everybody else a leg
up at your own expense andyou'll end up getting trampled. So
start showing up for yourself.Sometimes, you know, it is the productivity
kind of dopamine hit, but it'salso the I feel bad saying no or
they need somebody to lead thewell being pillar. So rather than
sitting here uncomfortably insilence, I'm going to raise my hand
(09:24):
in this meeting of nine peoplebecause nobody else is raising their
hand. Even though you led thewell being pillar for the last three
years. Right now these thingsare good for community building,
they're good for culture,they're good for teamwork and collaboration.
But if you are doing more than15% of your time in these types of
activities, you're doingyourself a disservice and you are
not being selfish enough aboutthe actual work. That moves the needle,
(09:46):
what moves the business.Because what moves the business is
what moves your career.
If you're here, then I knowyou're already interested in being
the best that you can be andgetting the most out of this one
life we have. And podcasts areobviously great for inspiration and
information, but truetransformation requires action. If
(10:07):
you're ready to finally takethe next step toward your next level,
whatever your goal may be,then consider working with me directly
one on one for six weeks ofpersonal coaching. If you're feeling
called to take purposefulaction towards your biggest goals,
this one on one coaching willprovide a customized roadmap to get
you the there faster. So let'snot just talk about change, let's
(10:31):
make it happen for you. Visiton airella.com to fill out an application
and see if it's a good fit.You can find it@onairela.com in the
coaching tab. If this is theseason where you are ready to invest
in your next step, let's talk.Okay, this is one of my favorite
things about you is that youtake nine traits that typically have
(10:55):
been mm. They've beenassociated with negative qualities.
Honestly, I want to talk aboutwomen in the workplace, but Jenny,
I also want to just talk aboutliving in this world as a woman,
which is to me an honor and aprivilege. Like no problem, no chip
on my shoulder about it. Butyou raise nine traits. Obsessed,
(11:16):
weird, selfish, shameless,nosy, manipulative, brutal, reckless
and bossy. And you flip themon their head. You reclaim these
traits that are often seen asnegative, and you flip the script.
I want to call some out and Iwant you to tell me what women need
(11:38):
to know. And we've talked alittle bit about selfish. I want
to. I want to start therebecause that is something I'm super
passionate about on thisplatform. And that is that taking
care of yourself is not selfselfish. And what I mean by that
is it's not selfish in anegative way.
Exactly. In the classicdefinition of it. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I lovethat you highlighted that, but I
(11:59):
want to call some of these outthat I find utterly fascinating.
Talk to me about obsessed and why.
We should be obsessed.Reclaimed is the courage to push,
perform, persist. And I'm gladyou're leading with this one, Ella,
because none of these othertraits will serve you well if you
don't learn to deliver not forsome company, but to achieve your
own ambitions. I have a funnystory about this. I do a lot of keynote
(12:20):
speaking and I wasn't going tohire a keynote coach, someone to
like, help develop the contentand give me feedback on my presentation.
So I was like, ah, I can do itmyself. But I ultimately did, even
though I'm cheap, but Iultimately did. And it was actually
the best money I'd ever spent.And he's like, jenny, I read the
book, but I skipped over theobsessed chapter. It just sounded
exhausting. I'd like, youknow, I just kind of want to. I want
(12:41):
to be more mindful of work,life, balance. And I'm so tired.
And in some ways I want tolean out more than I want to lean
in just in my career overall.And so then as we're working together,
he's like, oh, Jenny, Ithought of another great idea for
the second half of yourspeech. And then he came back the
next day. He's like, jenny,can we hop on a call? Because I have
this really cool idea of howyou can use an interactive poll in
a way that isn't complicatedtech wise, but really helps the audience
(13:04):
stay awake. I was like, great,let's do it. And then he's like,
hey there, I want you to watchthis TED Talk by Ramit Sethi. Because
I love how he interacts withthe audience when he does Q and A.
And I was like, mike, I knowthat you skipped the obsessed chapter,
but everything that you aredoing right now are obsessed tendencies.
You Care so much about theoutcome that you have no option to
be anything but obsessed. Youknow, I definitely fall prey to this.
(13:25):
And we can talk about traittraps, which are when you take a
trait too far. So thatobsession is about a healthy enthusiasm
about your work or yourproject or your livelihood or your
family or your friends. It'snot dialing up so high that you become
an obsess, like a. You gotyourself into a workaholic pull.
But I pointed out to Mike, mykeynote coach, that I was like, no,
this is obsession in action.You care so much about the outcome.
(13:47):
You care so much about me. Youwant to make this the best possible
product. Like, anyonelistening might want to make their
current product launch thebest possible launch. They might
want to make their, you know,promotion packet the best possible
bullets. Right? They mightwant to make their next interview
the best possible. The bestthey've performed in any interview.
That is what I call healthyobsession. And it's wonderful to
celebrate. I oftentimes talkwith my therapist about how I feel
(14:09):
guilty that I don't talk morein therapy about my kids. And I talk
so much about my work. Andshe's like, jenny, just own the fact
that you love what you do andyou are creating incredible value
for the world and that youlike helping and coaching people
to be better than they thinkthey can be. Don't beat yourself
up about the fact that you arekind of obsessed with your book or
(14:32):
your work or, you know,putting your ideas out into the world
like that is okay. And so Iwant people, especially women, to
reclaim that feeling ofenthusiasm about what they're bringing
to the world.
What I think is reallyimportant about that is that it's
predicated on. On intention todiscover what you like, what you
love, what flows for you, whataligns with your gifts and your values,
(14:54):
and it is predicated on thatintention. And. Or you do a job,
it's not necessarily yourgreatest passion in life, but. But
you find the things in thatzone that light you up.
Exactly.
I really like what's at thefoundation of that. And to me, a
life well lived is one wherewe get to do things that we happily,
(15:16):
helpfully obsess about. Imean, what a privilege.
Yeah, totally. And I love whatyou're saying, that your current
job might not be your life'spassion, but whatever it is, it's
a stepping stone into yournext thing. So you've got two options.
One, you could work your nextjob, and you could kind of phone
it in in your current job, butyou can only get away with that for
so long, or you can find theelements that really enjoy and you
can push past the discomfortor the fear or the, you know, frustration
(15:39):
of the things you don't. And Ihave a specific tool on this to help
you push past thatprocrastination. It's called the
pencil sharpener. And this isan obsessed tool. It is when your
boss gives you some scaryproject that you're not sure what
to do with for. For example,my boss once said to me, jenny, you're
inheriting five individualcontributors and one manager from
a totally different part ofGoogle. And I was like, what the.
What the heck is this? Like,this makes no sense to me, this reorg.
(16:02):
But it made sense to somebodyelse higher up in the organization.
So fine, I had to. I had toroll with it. So rather than like,
stressing out and, and notknowing how to handle it and not
knowing what to do, I gotobsessed. I opened a Google Doc.
I gave myself a limit of ahalf page. I put five categories.
Culture metrics,communications, change management,
(16:23):
and manager alignment. Idon't. Maybe I repeated one there.
Then I just wrote a couplebullets under each one. Here's the
thing. It doesn't have to beperfect. All it does is it shows
that you're moving the balldown the field and then send that
pencil sharpener to your bosswithin 24 hours. Because the expectations
are so low, if you're doingsomething right away, then they'll
comment in the doc, they'llemail you back, they'll say, no,
(16:43):
that's not quite the rightdeadline. Maybe I put like, June
30 to plan the comms plan.They might be like, no, they need
to know by May 15th. And so itjust allows the project to get started
without all this pressure onyourself that it has to be perfect.
Like, obsessed does not meanperfect. And because you're doing
it so quickly, it lowers thebar for you, it lowers the bar for
your manager. And that's a waythat you can be obsessed in your
job. Even if it's not yourfavorite job, it's not perfect. Or
(17:04):
you get handed a shit projectthat you're like, I don't know what
to do with this and I don'twant to deal with it. It really decreases
the. The anxiety of how tohandle something complicated like
I experienced in that case.
I love sharing specificframeworks and techniques. And it
sounds to me like the pencilsharpener technique can be used to
combat procrastination. Canyou break it down for me, though,
(17:27):
and maybe give Me a non workexample of how we can use the pencil
sharpener technique in ourlife to stop delaying and stop obsessing
over the fear part before wetake action on something.
Yeah, definitely. Well, we'reactually kind of introducing another
trait here which is reckless.And that's the courage to err on
the side of action. Becausebetter to learn from your mistakes
(17:49):
rather than waste timepredicting the consequences of every
freaking possible action,right or decision. So think fast
and fearless and if you're onthe fence, do it. So we just had
to make the hard decision tolet our nanny go. And man Ella, the
amount of back and forth I didwith my husband, like, oh, but she's
really good at this. And whatwill the transition look like for
our kids? And my son reallylikes her. My daughter doesn't get
(18:10):
along with her as much.Hopefully she's not a listener of
yours as after the fact. And,and, and like here's, here's my performance
review of hers live on air.But the reality is, I mean, she wasn't,
she was regularly not showingup to work with no warning. She was
regularly missing texts fromme about like specific during the
day. Forgot to pick mydaughter up from school one day,
you know, So I think it waswarranted. But the amount of back
(18:32):
and forth I did decidingwhether to keep her or not was just
really, really impressive in abad way. Um, there's, there's work
by psychologist Barry Schwartzcalled the paradox of choice. And
it's one of the best bodies ofwork out there on decision, like
on indecision. And that wasme. And I tend to deliberate a lot.
So what the pencil sharpenercould have looked like in this case
would have been, I don't know,let's see. If I did a pencil sharpener
(18:54):
around transitioning to a newnanny, I would have five categories.
Let's call it timeline. Let'scall it splitting the work. Maybe
we split childcare and housemanagement. So what could splitting
the work look like? Maybe itwould be sunsetting her thoughtfully
as opposed to letting her goright away. Like, what's the sunset
plan? And maybe, I don't know,you could probably fill in the blanks
of one more that I could havedone there. But it applies to everything
(19:17):
and it just, it gets you, itgets you moving, right? Action, not
thinking provides clarity.Action, not thinking provides clarity.
And so if you put those 3, 4,5 categories down on a piece of paper
and just start filling in thebullets, you are able to make so
much more progress than theconstant back and forth in your head.
And that's, and even that isan act of recklessness. It's an act
of erring on the side ofaction. By putting pen to paper and
(19:39):
putting something, or, youknow, keyboard to Google Doc and,
and making something concretethat helps you really solidify what,
what you're thinking about.You're not etching a plan in stone.
You're just jotting down acouple initial thoughts to change
your mindset to get the ball rolling.
Yeah, I have never thought myway out of any kind of stuck place,
any kind of rut. Always actionand never the perfect action. Never.
(20:03):
If we're waiting formotivation, if we're waiting for
perfection, we gonna bewaiting for a minute and then there's,
there's a, there's somethingthat's been repeated time and time
again, but inspiration istruly on the other side of starting.
But so many of us don't deferour dreams and defer our goals because
we keep waiting for this likedivine inspiration of some sort.
Yeah, I love the idea of justsharpening that pencil and just scratching
(20:28):
something out. In this case, literally.
Yes.
Jenny, I want to ask you aboutone more framework because I could
talk about habit formation andgoal setting, which I don't ever
call it goal setting, to betotally honest with you. I call it
building the habits that youwant and releasing the habits that
you do not. And you have agoal setting, practice, rock, chalk,
(20:51):
talk and walk. Did I say thatright? Let me see.
You sure did.
Rock, chalk, talk and walk.Okay, I want you to give us again,
give me, give me an example ofsomeone who is ready to start taking
care of their physical wellbeing, who has not for a hot minute.
How might they use the rock,chalk, talk and walk method to start
(21:12):
pursuit of that goal? Yeah.
So let's say that you want tolose weight. You know, maybe I should
even use an example. I'm 45. Idon't, maybe I should use one that
I like actually want to start.I'll kind of. I'm going to do this
live, so we'll see if I canput it in the framework. But everyone
says like 45, you should bedoing strength training. It's the
number one thing you need todo to, you know, combat osteoporosis
(21:34):
and to take care of yourself.And I just, I used to be good at
strength training, but I havenot done, I haven't lifted a weight
in the last 10 years. So let'ssay that I have a goal of wanting
to do more weight training.Well, that's very vague and it's
not really going to get mevery far. Rock is the very specific
thing I want to do. So let'ssay I want to increase my, you know,
(21:54):
adjust my BMI by X percent,right? That would be the rock. What
is the big thing that. The biggoal that you want to push up the
hill? The big rock. Right. Andyou want to have it be time bound.
Right. So maybe by August2026, chalk is to write it down.
So I might. I will show you anold rock I have. Right. This was
related to my book launch. Butright here, just you can see I have
(22:16):
a rock written on my stickynote on my monitor.
There's such magic in usingpen and paper and committing your
goals in writing. It's sodifferent even than. I'm not even
saying I do it well, Jenny.I'm just saying it's even. It hits
your brain differently thanjust putting it in a digital note,
(22:37):
for example, in your phone, right?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. There isactually a lot of research on something
called implementationintentions. And so just writing it
down and indicating like whenyou would do this action or where
you would do this actionincreases your likelihood to take
the action significantly. So Iwould write down the rock or sorry,
I'd write down the rock. Thenchalk is, you know, physically writing
it down and putting itsomewhere where you can see it. So
(22:59):
it might say, increase my BMIby increase decrease. This is me.
I'm so far out of the.
Like, forget bmi. You want tobuild muscle. You have put a metric
to it.
Exactly. But like, I do thinkthe number's important, so let's
change it. Maybe it's, maybeit's, I want to lift 20 pounds up
from 8 pounds that I cancurrently press. I think that's a
better example.
BMI is a terrible metric.Don't get me started.
(23:21):
Okay, okay. Right before allthe people comment on this episode
and say, jenny's calculatingBMI wrong. I hear you. I am guilty
as charged. I totally am. Lights.
Terrible. BMI penalizes shortmuscular people. Oh, terrible. BMI
says that I am almost over.Like almost obese.
That's a little bit of anassessment. I'm looking at your buff
(23:41):
arms right now and I know thatyou, you're wearing a tank top because
it's sweltering in your houseand you said you had a cute jacket
you were going to put on. Butas a result, I get to benefit from
your kick ass muscles that Iam looking at right now. So hashtag
jealous, hashtag inspired, andhashtag I don't think we use hashtag
anymore.
It's okay. We'll fully dorkout here. As long as you keep talking
(24:01):
about how great I look, thatwe're, we're fine. We got all the
time in the world. Let'sextend the interview. Okay, carry
on.
So then talk is to say it outloud, right? Rather than just think
it in my head and look at mylittle sticky note on my monitor
that I want to be able to, youknow, £20 by August 2026. And by
the way, not August, August30, like have an actual date, right?
That's part of your chalk.
Got it.
(24:22):
And then you want to say itout loud. I should go on podcasts
and say, this is my goal,right? I was, I've been talking to
friends, hiking, and I'm like,hey, Marcia, you have a personal
trainer. How much is do youlike her and what should I be doing?
And then Marsha was like,Jenny, just do 10 pushups a day.
And like, you don't have to gostart with a personal trainer. So
even just talking it out loudallows my dear friend Marcia to push
(24:42):
back on me and be like, youare thinking about this the wrong
way. So I'm like a right here,right now. How can we work on this
together? What feedback do youhave? Do you have a trainer? How
much does she cost? How oftendo you go, should I do it? You know,
what apps do you like? WhatYouTube videos do you like? And so
that to me is the benefit oftalk. People want to give you resources,
right? Like wisdom of thecrowds. And then walk is walk the
walk. What's one thing you cando today? So let's say you wanted
(25:04):
to lose ten pounds. Maybe theone thing your walk is you trade
the big dishes in your kitchenfor little dishes. That's one action
you can take today. In mycase, maybe it is putting on my calendar
20 minute YouTube trainingsession with X. You know, and put
the link to the YouTube thingand go on Amazon and buy, you know,
a set of 5, 10, 15 and 20pounds and just do it at home. So
that is my one walk. Thatprobably is the first walk I should
(25:26):
do. In fact, Ella, for when westop recording there, we're going
to have like two minutes ofcatch up and like, oh, how do you
think it went? Because that'swhat happens after every podcast.
I do not want you to let mehang up until I have pressed purchase
on Amazon on a set of weights.
Girl, I got you covered. I'mgonna send you the Link.
Amazing. So that is rock,chalk, talk, walk, goal setting in
(25:48):
a nutshell.
Okay, okay, okay, okay. Wehave time for one more trait. I want
you to choose manipulative,brutal or bossy.
I knew those were going to bethe three you were going to pick.
I love manipulative becausethe root of the word is Latin for
hand. The M A, N. And I don'tknow what Latin is for hand. Okay.
I just know that mano, like manos.
(26:11):
Yeah.
Yes. Is using your hands. Youare manipulating something literally.
To me, there are so many waysfor us to be strategic and to be
intentional in our lives thatI love the idea of reclaiming the
word manipulative. Of course.With zero nefarious intent. Yeah,
that's my TED Talk. You get to pick.
(26:32):
Well, let's stay on this onebecause it's just so. It's the most
cringe worthy. Right. Of allthese that I have shared. And it's
the one.
It is. It has an ick factor, right?
Oh, def. Well, it's so funnyyou say that because this book came
to be when I was working withmy editor and we were trying to figure
out the right packaging, edit,all this professional development
advice, all this personaldevelopment advice. And we were sitting
in person in New York and myagent and my editor and me and we,
(26:52):
like, hadn't quite figured outthe right packaging for all of my
content. Content. David. Oneof my editors said, jenny, on the.
On your flight home from NewYork back to Boulder, Colorado, where
I live, said, I want you towrite down everything you've done
in your life that has helpedyou be successful professionally,
personally, relationship wise.That could have a bit of an ick factor.
So it's funny you bring up theick factor because the ick factor
(27:14):
is what created this wholebook. And so I opened up a blank
document and I wrote downeverything from like, I'm a small
fish in my agent's big pond.She's got all the big names. And
then there's Jenny Wood, whono one's ever heard of. And so when
I first started working withher, I sent her a handwritten thank
you note. And I said, youknow, just how much I loved working
with her, how much I valuedher, how much I admired her, and
(27:34):
sure, could you call itkissing ass? Well, no, she probably
loved getting snail mailbecause nobody gets snail mail anymore
these days. And I figuredmaybe she would give me a little
bit of extra attention. Extraattention. Because she knew that
I was, like, in it to win it,that I deeply cared about this book
that I admired her. Andeveryone likes to hear a nice thing
about why their client likesworking with them as an agent. It
(27:57):
was kind of win, win, like shegot to feel good. She got some snail
mail, and I maybe got a littlebit of more of her mind share as
opposed to all the other smallpotatoes authors she had taken on
who maybe didn't put as mucheffort into it. And it's like we
think back in high school, oh,we've got to play it cool. Let's
pretend we didn't study forthe test, right? And then, like,
we get an A, it's like, oh, mygosh, how did that happen? But we're
(28:18):
almost protecting ourselveswhere if we get a. A lower grade,
then we don't have to say, oh,I put all this energy and effort
into it. Manipulative is thecourage to build influence through
empathy. Because whetheryou're selling a product, an idea,
or yourself, your ability towin friends, allies, and partners
is all about mutual benefit.So figure out what people want and
go get it for them. And somaybe Lisa, maybe I benefited her
(28:40):
by helping her feel good.Maybe I benefited her by her recognizing
that she was valuable. Right.And so it's just a win win. Was it
manipulative because I wastrying to handle hand, you know,
like, change the situation.Call it manipulation, But I do this
all the time in life. I buildrelationships strategically. I add
value to people so that ithelps them and they might want to
(29:00):
help me one day. And that, tome, is really thoughtful manipulation.
I just like the device thatyou've used in your writing. I like
the device of flipping thescript on these traits, and I think
it's super, super clever. Andeverything that you just described
to me is intentionallythoughtful. And there ain't nothing
wrong with that where I'mcoming from.
(29:22):
Exactly. It's planful. It's strategic.
Well, my friends, if you wantto know more about nosy, or perhaps
you want to know about bossy,or perhaps you want to know about
weird, or you want to knowmore about the ones that we've talked
about today, then I have torecommend to you Jenny's book, Wild
Courage. How am I not going tolove a book called Wild Courage?
Jenny? New York Times bestseller.
(29:43):
Good job. Thank you. Imanipulated a lot of people and situations
in a totally healthy andwholesome way.
All right. If you want to knowhow to go after what you want and
how to get it, then connectwith Jenny. Jenny, thank you so much.
Amazing. Thanks for having me.
Okay, if you enjoyed today'sshow. Please share it with someone
you care about and be sure tocheck out our new YouTube channel
(30:06):
and head to on airela.com fortoday's show notes and I would love
to hear from you, so if you DMme on Instagram, I promise I will
reply. P.S. all the links youneed for us to connect are right
here in your podcast app inthe description for today's episode.
Check them out. Thanks forlistening and thanks for inspiring
me. You are, quite simply awesome.
Welcome, you're on air withElla, where we share simple strategies
and tips for living a littlebetter every day. If you're interested
in mindset and wellness orhealthy habits and relationships,
honestly, if you're into justliving better and with more energy,
then you're in the rightplace. We're not here for perfect.
We're here for a little betterevery day. Let's go. Hey, you're
(00:26):
on air with Ella. And today Iam joined by Jenny Wood. Hey, Jenny,
how are you?
Good. How's it going, Ella?
Ah, it's going well. I wouldlove it if you could tell us who
you are and what you do.
I'm Jenny Wood. I am a keynotespeaker, a, an executive coach, one
on one small group coaching.And I have a newsletter that helps
(00:47):
people go after what they wantand get it. I'm also. Oh, I forgot
that I'm the author of the NewYork Times bestselling book Wild
Courage. Go after what youwant and get it. Only. Only like
my, my, my love child. Thelast four years of my life.
It was bound to come up, Jenny.
And maybe I have PTSD from howmuch time, energy and money I put
(01:08):
into this bad boy and so Ijust plopped it out.
No, I love, I love the book.
And I'm so excited to share itwith the world. I'm actually exceptionally
proud of this book. I thinkthat people, women, have a hard time
saying that they're proud ofsomething. I am so damn proud of
this book, it freaking rocks.
I am proud of you being proudof this book. And thanks for my copy
of Wild Courage. I'll besharing that with everybody at the
(01:30):
end of the episode. But Ireally want to talk to you about
not just the principles thatyou espouse, Jenny, but the ones
that have been behind yourextensive career for years and years
and years. I want to say an 18year tenure at Google, Former Harvard
Business school researcher.Tell me about that.
Yeah, I did three years doingresearch at Harvard. One year negotiations,
(01:52):
One year technologicalsubstitution and one year organizational
behavior managementleadership, figuring out how people
tick within organizations.
Congratulations. Because Ihave to commend you one more time
because normally if somebody'svegan or they went to Harvard, you
find out about it first. Likeit's the first thing you hear. So
you have shown enormousrestraint. Are you vegan?
I am not vegan. But I will saythere is a joke that goes, how do
(02:16):
you know if there's a pilot ata party? Don't worry, they'll tell
you. Yeah, always same idea.So Now I feel like I have to say,
I am also a pilot.
Wait, are you?
I am.
Okay, you guys, I promise you,we're going to be talking about things
that will stick with you forthe rest of your life. But first
I need to know, when did youget your pilot's license?
Right before I got engaged. So2013ish. And I got it because I just
(02:42):
moved to Ann Arbor with myboyfriend at the time who was in
business school there. I wasworking at Google, and I was so damn
tired of being impatient forhim to propose to me. I was like,
well, I'm just going to dosomething that takes my mind off
of it. And I'm like such anot. Not kind of like, wait for the
ring kind of girl. I mean, I.I can tell you how what started this
whole book in 2011, which wasa subway ride, which we should definitely
(03:03):
talk about, but so I'mdefinitely a go after what you want
and get it kind of girlmyself, but still, traditionally
was waiting for him topropose. And then I just got sick
of waiting around and I justneeded. I needed a new hobby. So
I went and got my pilot's.
License, as one does. Are youinstrument rated?
No, I'm not. And I would. Ilike, barely have time to fly.
Right now, so that takesnothing away from your accomplishment.
(03:25):
The fact that you're asking ifI'm instrument rated tells me that
you know things about being aprivate pilot.
Okay, we'll talk about it later.
Okay.
Oh, my gosh. I love this, youguys. That's the most impressive
thing I've learned about Jennyso far, and she's a very impressive
person. Okay, the second mostinteresting thing that I've learned
about you, Jenny, is a story Iwant you to share with us, and it
ties back to 2011. Please,please tell us the story that I happen
(03:47):
to know, because I read yourbook, but please tell us the story
of how you met your husband.And spoiler alert. By chasing him
off the subway.
Yeah. So it's 2011. I'm ridingthe subway home from work in New
York city, and about 20ft awayfrom me stands this really good looking
guy. Gorgeous blue eyes, thickbrown wavy hair, the whole works.
And even though I want to talkto him, something holds me back.
(04:09):
What if he's a convictedfelon? What if he's married? What
if a hundred people stare atme, this packed train, while I make
a fool of myself? Well, Ilater came to realize that underneath
those questions were fearsthat hold so many people back and
fears that had held me back somuch of life. Fear of failure.
Well, rejection.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, fear ofrejection or failure, I'd call it.
Maybe kind of similar, like.But fear of uncertainty, fear of
(04:31):
judgment of others. What if ahundred people stare at me and think,
like, look at this girl makinga fool of herself? So I sit there
and I do nothing as the trainpasses stop after stop after stop,
and as life passes me by. ButI make a deal with the universe,
and I say, if he gets off atmy stop, then maybe I'll try to strike
up a conversation with him.And if not, then say lovey. He gets
off at the next stop, and Islump down in my seat, thinking,
(04:52):
oh, like such a, you know,missed opportunity. And then, just
as the doors are about toclose, I feel this wave of, no joke,
wild courage wash over me andpractically push me out of my subway
seat and off that damn train.And I chase to catch up with him.
I tap him on the shoulder ashe's exiting the station, and I say,
excuse me. I'm sorry to botheryou. You're wearing gloves, so I
(05:14):
can't tell if you're wearing awedding ring, but in the event that
you're not married, you wereon my subway, and I thought you were
cute. Any chance I could giveyou my business card? And then I
wait for what feels likeforever, thinking, this was a terrible
idea. But then eventually, hetakes the card, he calls the next
day, we go on a date a weeklater, and we've now been married
11 years with two smallchildren. So wild courage for you,
(05:37):
baby.
It's not just courage. It'swild. I know.
Well, people often ask, like,what's the difference between courage
and wild courage? Mostly Isay, well, it all started with me
chasing a damn stranger off asubway. So, yeah, there you go.
There's a reason, obviously,that I wanted to ask you about that
story, but tell me something.Connect this a little bit to the
courage that you took in, toyour career, particularly at Google,
(06:02):
which I would imagine wasparticularly challenging an environment
to stand out in. Tell me aboutit. And tell me what wild courage
meant in that environment.
Hmm. Such a good call. Out. Soit really was the day that I adopted
wild courage as a habit. And Iapplied it to my relationships, to
my personal life, and mostimportantly, to my professional life.
So it was about asking my VPto meet with me once a quarter and
(06:27):
mentor me. It was aboutseparating the big and important
stuff at work from the smalland unimportant stuff. It was about
avoiding what I call Nap work,not actually promotable work. Being
the person to take notes inevery meeting. Being the person to
always plan the company offsite picnic, right? Like some of
the things that have to getdone. Some people call this glue
work or, or invisible work. Icall it nap work. Not actually promotable
(06:49):
work. And so I stopped doingthat. I had the wild courage to say
no without feeling like ajerk. I had the wild courage to,
you know, push the engineers.I was on an operations team that
sat between sales andengineering, and I led a global team
of people who are helpingimprove Google's ad products. Instead
of saying, well, who am I togive feedback to the engineers, like,
I just had the wild courage tothoughtfully disagree with some strategy
(07:11):
direction or product directionbecause I knew it would better serve
the customers. So in all theseareas, I started being more bold,
being more selfish, being inthe best way, being more shameless,
and how I would promote my, myown work and advocate for my team.
So I grew, you know, keptgetting promoted, ultimately having
various kinds of COO typeroles within Google. And then one
(07:32):
day walking out of anengineering meeting where I was delivering
some bugs, I said, well, maybeI'll try to tap into my wild courage
even more and spread thismessage further. So I put together
a career development programat Google, a document initially of
my best career tips forGooglers to help them get promoted.
And so I did that on a pieceof, on a Google Doc. And I thought
maybe 35 people would come tothis training. I was going to lead
(07:52):
based on this doc. Well, 2,000people came to that first training,
Ella. And then ultimately thisprogram grew to 56,000 Googlers using
it across almost 100countries. So I think that was actually
the moment. Founding this ownyour career program as a passion
project, that was like themost wild, wild, couragey thing I
did in my career. Because Igot no approvals. I didn't talk to
anybody in HR or peopleoperations or comms or legal. I just
(08:15):
did it. And I knew that I wasdoing it in all the right ways, but
I just did it without runningit up every inch of the flagpole,
only for it to die in committee.
Yeah, we asked for permissiontoo much. And by we I'm gonna go
ahead and say women, we askfor permission too much.
Totally.
Okay. There's several lessonsin there for us. And one I'm just
going to underscore, youcovered it well, but I'm just going
to underscore the necessity,necessity of avoiding nap work. Great
(08:40):
acronym. Not actuallypromotable. That is work that Women,
the data suggests, tend tostep up for more because we have,
of course, tied our value andour worth to our productivity. And
what is the error in that?From your position, you're not being
selfish enough.
Right. And selfish is one ofthese, one of the nine traits that
(09:02):
I help people reclaim. To me,selfish is the courage, the wild
courage to be your ownchampion. Give everybody else a leg
up at your own expense andyou'll end up getting trampled. So
start showing up for yourself.Sometimes, you know, it is the productivity
kind of dopamine hit, but it'salso the I feel bad saying no or
they need somebody to lead thewell being pillar. So rather than
sitting here uncomfortably insilence, I'm going to raise my hand
(09:24):
in this meeting of nine peoplebecause nobody else is raising their
hand. Even though you led thewell being pillar for the last three
years. Right now these thingsare good for community building,
they're good for culture,they're good for teamwork and collaboration.
But if you are doing more than15% of your time in these types of
activities, you're doingyourself a disservice and you are
not being selfish enough aboutthe actual work. That moves the needle,
(09:46):
what moves the business.Because what moves the business is
what moves your career.
If you're here, then I knowyou're already interested in being
the best that you can be andgetting the most out of this one
life we have. And podcasts areobviously great for inspiration and
information, but truetransformation requires action. If
(10:07):
you're ready to finally takethe next step toward your next level,
whatever your goal may be,then consider working with me directly
one on one for six weeks ofpersonal coaching. If you're feeling
called to take purposefulaction towards your biggest goals,
this one on one coaching willprovide a customized roadmap to get
you the there faster. So let'snot just talk about change, let's
(10:31):
make it happen for you. Visiton airella.com to fill out an application
and see if it's a good fit.You can find it@onairela.com in the
coaching tab. If this is theseason where you are ready to invest
in your next step, let's talk.Okay, this is one of my favorite
things about you is that youtake nine traits that typically have
(10:55):
been mm. They've beenassociated with negative qualities.
Honestly, I want to talk aboutwomen in the workplace, but Jenny,
I also want to just talk aboutliving in this world as a woman,
which is to me an honor and aprivilege. Like no problem, no chip
on my shoulder about it. Butyou raise nine traits. Obsessed,
(11:16):
weird, selfish, shameless,nosy, manipulative, brutal, reckless
and bossy. And you flip themon their head. You reclaim these
traits that are often seen asnegative, and you flip the script.
I want to call some out and Iwant you to tell me what women need
(11:38):
to know. And we've talked alittle bit about selfish. I want
to. I want to start therebecause that is something I'm super
passionate about on thisplatform. And that is that taking
care of yourself is not selfselfish. And what I mean by that
is it's not selfish in anegative way.
Exactly. In the classicdefinition of it. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I lovethat you highlighted that, but I
(11:59):
want to call some of these outthat I find utterly fascinating.
Talk to me about obsessed and why.
We should be obsessed.Reclaimed is the courage to push,
perform, persist. And I'm gladyou're leading with this one, Ella,
because none of these othertraits will serve you well if you
don't learn to deliver not forsome company, but to achieve your
own ambitions. I have a funnystory about this. I do a lot of keynote
(12:20):
speaking and I wasn't going tohire a keynote coach, someone to
like, help develop the contentand give me feedback on my presentation.
So I was like, ah, I can do itmyself. But I ultimately did, even
though I'm cheap, but Iultimately did. And it was actually
the best money I'd ever spent.And he's like, jenny, I read the
book, but I skipped over theobsessed chapter. It just sounded
exhausting. I'd like, youknow, I just kind of want to. I want
(12:41):
to be more mindful of work,life, balance. And I'm so tired.
And in some ways I want tolean out more than I want to lean
in just in my career overall.And so then as we're working together,
he's like, oh, Jenny, Ithought of another great idea for
the second half of yourspeech. And then he came back the
next day. He's like, jenny,can we hop on a call? Because I have
this really cool idea of howyou can use an interactive poll in
a way that isn't complicatedtech wise, but really helps the audience
(13:04):
stay awake. I was like, great,let's do it. And then he's like,
hey there, I want you to watchthis TED Talk by Ramit Sethi. Because
I love how he interacts withthe audience when he does Q and A.
And I was like, mike, I knowthat you skipped the obsessed chapter,
but everything that you aredoing right now are obsessed tendencies.
You Care so much about theoutcome that you have no option to
be anything but obsessed. Youknow, I definitely fall prey to this.
(13:25):
And we can talk about traittraps, which are when you take a
trait too far. So thatobsession is about a healthy enthusiasm
about your work or yourproject or your livelihood or your
family or your friends. It'snot dialing up so high that you become
an obsess, like a. You gotyourself into a workaholic pull.
But I pointed out to Mike, mykeynote coach, that I was like, no,
this is obsession in action.You care so much about the outcome.
(13:47):
You care so much about me. Youwant to make this the best possible
product. Like, anyonelistening might want to make their
current product launch thebest possible launch. They might
want to make their, you know,promotion packet the best possible
bullets. Right? They mightwant to make their next interview
the best possible. The bestthey've performed in any interview.
That is what I call healthyobsession. And it's wonderful to
celebrate. I oftentimes talkwith my therapist about how I feel
(14:09):
guilty that I don't talk morein therapy about my kids. And I talk
so much about my work. Andshe's like, jenny, just own the fact
that you love what you do andyou are creating incredible value
for the world and that youlike helping and coaching people
to be better than they thinkthey can be. Don't beat yourself
up about the fact that you arekind of obsessed with your book or
(14:32):
your work or, you know,putting your ideas out into the world
like that is okay. And so Iwant people, especially women, to
reclaim that feeling ofenthusiasm about what they're bringing
to the world.
What I think is reallyimportant about that is that it's
predicated on. On intention todiscover what you like, what you
love, what flows for you, whataligns with your gifts and your values,
(14:54):
and it is predicated on thatintention. And. Or you do a job,
it's not necessarily yourgreatest passion in life, but. But
you find the things in thatzone that light you up.
Exactly.
I really like what's at thefoundation of that. And to me, a
life well lived is one wherewe get to do things that we happily,
(15:16):
helpfully obsess about. Imean, what a privilege.
Yeah, totally. And I love whatyou're saying, that your current
job might not be your life'spassion, but whatever it is, it's
a stepping stone into yournext thing. So you've got two options.
One, you could work your nextjob, and you could kind of phone
it in in your current job, butyou can only get away with that for
so long, or you can find theelements that really enjoy and you
can push past the discomfortor the fear or the, you know, frustration
(15:39):
of the things you don't. And Ihave a specific tool on this to help
you push past thatprocrastination. It's called the
pencil sharpener. And this isan obsessed tool. It is when your
boss gives you some scaryproject that you're not sure what
to do with for. For example,my boss once said to me, jenny, you're
inheriting five individualcontributors and one manager from
a totally different part ofGoogle. And I was like, what the.
What the heck is this? Like,this makes no sense to me, this reorg.
(16:02):
But it made sense to somebodyelse higher up in the organization.
So fine, I had to. I had toroll with it. So rather than like,
stressing out and, and notknowing how to handle it and not
knowing what to do, I gotobsessed. I opened a Google Doc.
I gave myself a limit of ahalf page. I put five categories.
Culture metrics,communications, change management,
(16:23):
and manager alignment. Idon't. Maybe I repeated one there.
Then I just wrote a couplebullets under each one. Here's the
thing. It doesn't have to beperfect. All it does is it shows
that you're moving the balldown the field and then send that
pencil sharpener to your bosswithin 24 hours. Because the expectations
are so low, if you're doingsomething right away, then they'll
comment in the doc, they'llemail you back, they'll say, no,
(16:43):
that's not quite the rightdeadline. Maybe I put like, June
30 to plan the comms plan.They might be like, no, they need
to know by May 15th. And so itjust allows the project to get started
without all this pressure onyourself that it has to be perfect.
Like, obsessed does not meanperfect. And because you're doing
it so quickly, it lowers thebar for you, it lowers the bar for
your manager. And that's a waythat you can be obsessed in your
job. Even if it's not yourfavorite job, it's not perfect. Or
(17:04):
you get handed a shit projectthat you're like, I don't know what
to do with this and I don'twant to deal with it. It really decreases
the. The anxiety of how tohandle something complicated like
I experienced in that case.
I love sharing specificframeworks and techniques. And it
sounds to me like the pencilsharpener technique can be used to
combat procrastination. Canyou break it down for me, though,
(17:27):
and maybe give Me a non workexample of how we can use the pencil
sharpener technique in ourlife to stop delaying and stop obsessing
over the fear part before wetake action on something.
Yeah, definitely. Well, we'reactually kind of introducing another
trait here which is reckless.And that's the courage to err on
the side of action. Becausebetter to learn from your mistakes
(17:49):
rather than waste timepredicting the consequences of every
freaking possible action,right or decision. So think fast
and fearless and if you're onthe fence, do it. So we just had
to make the hard decision tolet our nanny go. And man Ella, the
amount of back and forth I didwith my husband, like, oh, but she's
really good at this. And whatwill the transition look like for
our kids? And my son reallylikes her. My daughter doesn't get
(18:10):
along with her as much.Hopefully she's not a listener of
yours as after the fact. And,and, and like here's, here's my performance
review of hers live on air.But the reality is, I mean, she wasn't,
she was regularly not showingup to work with no warning. She was
regularly missing texts fromme about like specific during the
day. Forgot to pick mydaughter up from school one day,
you know, So I think it waswarranted. But the amount of back
(18:32):
and forth I did decidingwhether to keep her or not was just
really, really impressive in abad way. Um, there's, there's work
by psychologist Barry Schwartzcalled the paradox of choice. And
it's one of the best bodies ofwork out there on decision, like
on indecision. And that wasme. And I tend to deliberate a lot.
So what the pencil sharpenercould have looked like in this case
would have been, I don't know,let's see. If I did a pencil sharpener
(18:54):
around transitioning to a newnanny, I would have five categories.
Let's call it timeline. Let'scall it splitting the work. Maybe
we split childcare and housemanagement. So what could splitting
the work look like? Maybe itwould be sunsetting her thoughtfully
as opposed to letting her goright away. Like, what's the sunset
plan? And maybe, I don't know,you could probably fill in the blanks
of one more that I could havedone there. But it applies to everything
(19:17):
and it just, it gets you, itgets you moving, right? Action, not
thinking provides clarity.Action, not thinking provides clarity.
And so if you put those 3, 4,5 categories down on a piece of paper
and just start filling in thebullets, you are able to make so
much more progress than theconstant back and forth in your head.
And that's, and even that isan act of recklessness. It's an act
of erring on the side ofaction. By putting pen to paper and
(19:39):
putting something, or, youknow, keyboard to Google Doc and,
and making something concretethat helps you really solidify what,
what you're thinking about.You're not etching a plan in stone.
You're just jotting down acouple initial thoughts to change
your mindset to get the ball rolling.
Yeah, I have never thought myway out of any kind of stuck place,
any kind of rut. Always actionand never the perfect action. Never.
(20:03):
If we're waiting formotivation, if we're waiting for
perfection, we gonna bewaiting for a minute and then there's,
there's a, there's somethingthat's been repeated time and time
again, but inspiration istruly on the other side of starting.
But so many of us don't deferour dreams and defer our goals because
we keep waiting for this likedivine inspiration of some sort.
Yeah, I love the idea of justsharpening that pencil and just scratching
(20:28):
something out. In this case, literally.
Yes.
Jenny, I want to ask you aboutone more framework because I could
talk about habit formation andgoal setting, which I don't ever
call it goal setting, to betotally honest with you. I call it
building the habits that youwant and releasing the habits that
you do not. And you have agoal setting, practice, rock, chalk,
(20:51):
talk and walk. Did I say thatright? Let me see.
You sure did.
Rock, chalk, talk and walk.Okay, I want you to give us again,
give me, give me an example ofsomeone who is ready to start taking
care of their physical wellbeing, who has not for a hot minute.
How might they use the rock,chalk, talk and walk method to start
(21:12):
pursuit of that goal? Yeah.
So let's say that you want tolose weight. You know, maybe I should
even use an example. I'm 45. Idon't, maybe I should use one that
I like actually want to start.I'll kind of. I'm going to do this
live, so we'll see if I canput it in the framework. But everyone
says like 45, you should bedoing strength training. It's the
number one thing you need todo to, you know, combat osteoporosis
(21:34):
and to take care of yourself.And I just, I used to be good at
strength training, but I havenot done, I haven't lifted a weight
in the last 10 years. So let'ssay that I have a goal of wanting
to do more weight training.Well, that's very vague and it's
not really going to get mevery far. Rock is the very specific
thing I want to do. So let'ssay I want to increase my, you know,
(21:54):
adjust my BMI by X percent,right? That would be the rock. What
is the big thing that. The biggoal that you want to push up the
hill? The big rock. Right. Andyou want to have it be time bound.
Right. So maybe by August2026, chalk is to write it down.
So I might. I will show you anold rock I have. Right. This was
related to my book launch. Butright here, just you can see I have
(22:16):
a rock written on my stickynote on my monitor.
There's such magic in usingpen and paper and committing your
goals in writing. It's sodifferent even than. I'm not even
saying I do it well, Jenny.I'm just saying it's even. It hits
your brain differently thanjust putting it in a digital note,
(22:37):
for example, in your phone, right?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. There isactually a lot of research on something
called implementationintentions. And so just writing it
down and indicating like whenyou would do this action or where
you would do this actionincreases your likelihood to take
the action significantly. So Iwould write down the rock or sorry,
I'd write down the rock. Thenchalk is, you know, physically writing
it down and putting itsomewhere where you can see it. So
(22:59):
it might say, increase my BMIby increase decrease. This is me.
I'm so far out of the.
Like, forget bmi. You want tobuild muscle. You have put a metric
to it.
Exactly. But like, I do thinkthe number's important, so let's
change it. Maybe it's, maybeit's, I want to lift 20 pounds up
from 8 pounds that I cancurrently press. I think that's a
better example.
BMI is a terrible metric.Don't get me started.
(23:21):
Okay, okay. Right before allthe people comment on this episode
and say, jenny's calculatingBMI wrong. I hear you. I am guilty
as charged. I totally am. Lights.
Terrible. BMI penalizes shortmuscular people. Oh, terrible. BMI
says that I am almost over.Like almost obese.
That's a little bit of anassessment. I'm looking at your buff
(23:41):
arms right now and I know thatyou, you're wearing a tank top because
it's sweltering in your houseand you said you had a cute jacket
you were going to put on. Butas a result, I get to benefit from
your kick ass muscles that Iam looking at right now. So hashtag
jealous, hashtag inspired, andhashtag I don't think we use hashtag
anymore.
It's okay. We'll fully dorkout here. As long as you keep talking
(24:01):
about how great I look, thatwe're, we're fine. We got all the
time in the world. Let'sextend the interview. Okay, carry
on.
So then talk is to say it outloud, right? Rather than just think
it in my head and look at mylittle sticky note on my monitor
that I want to be able to, youknow, £20 by August 2026. And by
the way, not August, August30, like have an actual date, right?
That's part of your chalk.
Got it.
(24:22):
And then you want to say itout loud. I should go on podcasts
and say, this is my goal,right? I was, I've been talking to
friends, hiking, and I'm like,hey, Marcia, you have a personal
trainer. How much is do youlike her and what should I be doing?
And then Marsha was like,Jenny, just do 10 pushups a day.
And like, you don't have to gostart with a personal trainer. So
even just talking it out loudallows my dear friend Marcia to push
(24:42):
back on me and be like, youare thinking about this the wrong
way. So I'm like a right here,right now. How can we work on this
together? What feedback do youhave? Do you have a trainer? How
much does she cost? How oftendo you go, should I do it? You know,
what apps do you like? WhatYouTube videos do you like? And so
that to me is the benefit oftalk. People want to give you resources,
right? Like wisdom of thecrowds. And then walk is walk the
walk. What's one thing you cando today? So let's say you wanted
(25:04):
to lose ten pounds. Maybe theone thing your walk is you trade
the big dishes in your kitchenfor little dishes. That's one action
you can take today. In mycase, maybe it is putting on my calendar
20 minute YouTube trainingsession with X. You know, and put
the link to the YouTube thingand go on Amazon and buy, you know,
a set of 5, 10, 15 and 20pounds and just do it at home. So
that is my one walk. Thatprobably is the first walk I should
(25:26):
do. In fact, Ella, for when westop recording there, we're going
to have like two minutes ofcatch up and like, oh, how do you
think it went? Because that'swhat happens after every podcast.
I do not want you to let mehang up until I have pressed purchase
on Amazon on a set of weights.
Girl, I got you covered. I'mgonna send you the Link.
Amazing. So that is rock,chalk, talk, walk, goal setting in
(25:48):
a nutshell.
Okay, okay, okay, okay. Wehave time for one more trait. I want
you to choose manipulative,brutal or bossy.
I knew those were going to bethe three you were going to pick.
I love manipulative becausethe root of the word is Latin for
hand. The M A, N. And I don'tknow what Latin is for hand. Okay.
I just know that mano, like manos.
(26:11):
Yeah.
Yes. Is using your hands. Youare manipulating something literally.
To me, there are so many waysfor us to be strategic and to be
intentional in our lives thatI love the idea of reclaiming the
word manipulative. Of course.With zero nefarious intent. Yeah,
that's my TED Talk. You get to pick.
(26:32):
Well, let's stay on this onebecause it's just so. It's the most
cringe worthy. Right. Of allthese that I have shared. And it's
the one.
It is. It has an ick factor, right?
Oh, def. Well, it's so funnyyou say that because this book came
to be when I was working withmy editor and we were trying to figure
out the right packaging, edit,all this professional development
advice, all this personaldevelopment advice. And we were sitting
in person in New York and myagent and my editor and me and we,
(26:52):
like, hadn't quite figured outthe right packaging for all of my
content. Content. David. Oneof my editors said, jenny, on the.
On your flight home from NewYork back to Boulder, Colorado, where
I live, said, I want you towrite down everything you've done
in your life that has helpedyou be successful professionally,
personally, relationship wise.That could have a bit of an ick factor.
So it's funny you bring up theick factor because the ick factor
(27:14):
is what created this wholebook. And so I opened up a blank
document and I wrote downeverything from like, I'm a small
fish in my agent's big pond.She's got all the big names. And
then there's Jenny Wood, whono one's ever heard of. And so when
I first started working withher, I sent her a handwritten thank
you note. And I said, youknow, just how much I loved working
with her, how much I valuedher, how much I admired her, and
(27:34):
sure, could you call itkissing ass? Well, no, she probably
loved getting snail mailbecause nobody gets snail mail anymore
these days. And I figuredmaybe she would give me a little
bit of extra attention. Extraattention. Because she knew that
I was, like, in it to win it,that I deeply cared about this book
that I admired her. Andeveryone likes to hear a nice thing
about why their client likesworking with them as an agent. It
(27:57):
was kind of win, win, like shegot to feel good. She got some snail
mail, and I maybe got a littlebit of more of her mind share as
opposed to all the other smallpotatoes authors she had taken on
who maybe didn't put as mucheffort into it. And it's like we
think back in high school, oh,we've got to play it cool. Let's
pretend we didn't study forthe test, right? And then, like,
we get an A, it's like, oh, mygosh, how did that happen? But we're
(28:18):
almost protecting ourselveswhere if we get a. A lower grade,
then we don't have to say, oh,I put all this energy and effort
into it. Manipulative is thecourage to build influence through
empathy. Because whetheryou're selling a product, an idea,
or yourself, your ability towin friends, allies, and partners
is all about mutual benefit.So figure out what people want and
go get it for them. And somaybe Lisa, maybe I benefited her
(28:40):
by helping her feel good.Maybe I benefited her by her recognizing
that she was valuable. Right.And so it's just a win win. Was it
manipulative because I wastrying to handle hand, you know,
like, change the situation.Call it manipulation, But I do this
all the time in life. I buildrelationships strategically. I add
value to people so that ithelps them and they might want to
(29:00):
help me one day. And that, tome, is really thoughtful manipulation.
I just like the device thatyou've used in your writing. I like
the device of flipping thescript on these traits, and I think
it's super, super clever. Andeverything that you just described
to me is intentionallythoughtful. And there ain't nothing
wrong with that where I'mcoming from.
(29:22):
Exactly. It's planful. It's strategic.
Well, my friends, if you wantto know more about nosy, or perhaps
you want to know about bossy,or perhaps you want to know about
weird, or you want to knowmore about the ones that we've talked
about today, then I have torecommend to you Jenny's book, Wild
Courage. How am I not going tolove a book called Wild Courage?
Jenny? New York Times bestseller.
(29:43):
Good job. Thank you. Imanipulated a lot of people and situations
in a totally healthy andwholesome way.
All right. If you want to knowhow to go after what you want and
how to get it, then connectwith Jenny. Jenny, thank you so much.
Amazing. Thanks for having me.
Okay, if you enjoyed today'sshow. Please share it with someone
you care about and be sure tocheck out our new YouTube channel
(30:06):
and head to on airela.com fortoday's show notes and I would love
to hear from you, so if you DMme on Instagram, I promise I will
reply. P.S. all the links youneed for us to connect are right
here in your podcast app inthe description for today's episode.
Check them out. Thanks forlistening and thanks for inspiring
me. You are, quite simply awesome.
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