November 29, 2023 • 62 mins
Are you ready to embark on a journey of self-discovery, challenge societal norms, and work towards promoting a safer world? Join us and our special guest, Jeff Perera, a renowned speaker and writer who is a strong voice in addressing manhood and gender-based violence. Together, we cut through the noise to understand what it means to be a male ally and why it's critical to translate those words into tangible action.
Our discussion takes a deep dive into the impact of traditional masculinity on our young boys and men, and the ripple effect it has on society. We break down how societal expectations encourage boys to suppress their emotions and foster dominance, leading to potential harmful behaviors. We also discuss Kanye West and Andrew Tate in our examination of the influence of pop culture on young men.
Navigating the challenges faced by young men in today's uncertain times, we underscore the importance of building emotional muscle. We share practical tips on fostering empathy and redefining manhood. This episode is more than just a conversation; it's a call to step up, to challenge harmful narratives of masculinity, and to be a part of the change in building safer communities free from violence.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jerusha Mack (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to the Learn to Love
podcast.
You are now on the air with HWP.
This podcast is presented byHalton Women's Place.
We are the only women shelterin our region for women and
children experiencing abuse.
On air with HWP is about havingconversations that educate,
empower and create safe futureswithout violence.
(00:23):
I'm your host, jerusia Mack,and today we're delving into
some contentious waters.
We're exploring therelationship between males and
the issue of violence againstwomen.
I'm joined by my special guest,jeff Pereira, who is a speaker,
writer and facilitator whodelivers keynotes and workshops
about masculinity and maleallyship.
(00:45):
He is leading the field inconversations on manhood and
gender-based violence.
I'm so pleased to have you joinme today, jeff.
Thank you for being here.
Jeff Perera (00:55):
Thank you for having me.
Jerusha Mack (00:57):
Absolutely.
I've been wanting to have thisconversation for a while, so
really pleased that we're ableto have you here today.
So, like I mentioned before,our topic today is incredibly
important, but it can becontentious, in my role with
education and awareness.
At our shelter, we often talkabout the importance of men in
(01:19):
helping to end domestic violence, so today I wanted to chat
about these concepts that youwill often hear about male
allyship and toxic masculinityand I also wanted to get your
insight on some pop culturesituations that received a lot
of attention.
Being an ally, I feel, is astatement that is very much used
in our culture, but I'm notsure if people really understand
(01:41):
what that means.
So what does it mean to be amale ally and why is that
important?
Jeff Perera (01:47):
Yeah, you know, I think it's such a critical
conversation for us to havearound allyship and I, you know
the language I like to use isstriving to be an ally, you know
, I think it's something thatyou're looking to attain, a
status that not necessarily thatyou label yourself, but more
that people will label you basedon your actions, the way you
(02:09):
carry yourself, the way youhandle situations, the way you
look out for women and genderexpansive people, whether
they're in the room or not, thewomen you know or don't know.
You know thinking of people ofall genders.
And, yeah, like I think youknow, I think a lot about, back
in the day, mothers againstdrunk driving, mad.
(02:31):
They created this concept, thislanguage, the phrase was
designated driver and you thinkabout how now that's like such a
everyday language that peopleare very familiar with, right
away, know what you're talkingabout, and the idea is that
someone you know chose todesignate themselves as someone
(02:52):
who'd be, you know, not drinkingthat night.
So for those who drank and goout and celebrate and, you know,
use alcohol, the person wouldpledge to not drink and be the
safe ride home and so they wentto drive everyone home that
night and I think about thatkind of language.
(03:13):
And you know it's based reallyon their actions and the
responsibility andaccountability they take on.
And you know, I think it's greatwhen men want to identify as
allies, but again it's, it's notso much impressive to me for a
man, for example, to go up to abunch of women and say, well,
you know, I'm an ally.
(03:34):
I think it's impressive for aman to go up to other men you
know whether it's in the lockerroom, at the bar, you know in
the lunchroom and say that, youknow, I, I support women and
girls and gender diverse people,or I'm here to advocate and
support them in a variety ofways.
And again, not just in wordsbut in deeds, in action and how
(03:55):
you carry yourself.
So I think it's an importantconversation and it's one that
you know, I get.
I get that it's veryintimidating for everyday guys
because it feels like such atense conversation.
It feels, you know, verychallenging, difficult to keep
on top of the language, on topof the issues.
(04:16):
But that's, that's where youknow it's.
It's if you are invested insomething, you recognize the
hard work that goes in it, youknow into it.
So I think that you know, likewhen we think about anything
that we strive for in our lives.
There's work that goes into it.
And you know, a part of that iskind of building up.
(04:37):
I describe it, we could talkabout it more.
I talk about men building ouremotional muscle.
And you know, when men arecommitted to building physical
muscle, you know like they wantto play rec sports on the
weekend or they just want to bein better shape, better state of
health.
They commit to doing that work.
(04:57):
And you know that work is likeone to the gym getting a trainer
.
And that leads to, you know,when you you you have a good
workout, there's discomfort.
48 hours later, 24 hours later,you look, you learn to look
forward to that burn of buildingthat muscle.
I think for us, as men, tobuild our emotional muscle means
(05:18):
, you know, learning to get asthe same goes, get comfortable
with the discomfort of thesetopics because you're invested
in what the end result will beand that is, you know, a safer
place to safer world for womenand gender expansive people.
Jerusha Mack (05:35):
Yeah, and I love that analogy that you use of the
designated driver and alsohighlighting that it's about
action, because I think a lot ofit can be like you know, like
you said, oh, I'm an ally, okay,what does that mean?
Like it's not performative,like what does it actually mean?
And like your day to day lifeand how, like you brought up
about maybe having conversationswith your friends or being the
(05:57):
person to say, hey, that's notokay or that's not cool, right?
So yes actually about action andnot just about, like this fancy
full word that we use thatsounds great, right?
A term that we often hear aswell is toxic masculinity, and I
found that when you use termslike that, people can find it
(06:17):
off putting or theyautomatically become defensive.
It's a term that sometimes,when we're in some of our
presentations, that's that comesup and automatically, like
young men, they feel like theyare being attacked or they think
that you know someone.
When they use that term,they're saying that all men are
bad.
So where do you think that thatpushback or defensiveness comes
(06:40):
from and how can we get aroundthat in order to call in men and
young boys into becoming allies?
Jeff Perera (06:47):
Yeah, you know, I think I think that one of the
challenges that we have aroundthese issues, when it comes to
gender based violence and youknow, overall, just the, the
women's rights and valuingwomen's bodies, voices, lives
and experiences, I think part ofthe challenge is, you know, I
(07:14):
think that there's definitelyreasons for men and young men
and boys to be invested in thisconversation, partly because you
know, obviously, as we know,patriarchy, the structures that
benefit men.
However, there's also strugglesand hardships that we
(07:35):
experience as men.
And you know it's notnecessarily about the oppression
Olympics of who has it worse,but I think it's also
recognizing that you know womenand gender expansive people are
experiencing you know extremeoppression, a genocide or
femicide.
You know homophobia,transphobia, and it's very
crushing throughout the world.
(07:57):
But these are hardships alsothat men and young men and boys
face to and they're linked.
So the kind of the idea of ourcollective liberation is part of
it.
But it's also thinking about.
You know that this isn't at myexpense.
This conversation of change, ofequality, of justice, of peace
(08:17):
of mind, body and spirit is notat my expense as a man or young
men and boys.
So I think for a lot of youngmen and boys that the challenges
when it comes to thisconversation up front, the
feeling is you know it's, it'sfight, flight or freeze, because
I think part of the challengewe have today, in this era of
(08:38):
learning about each other andeach other's experiences, you
can think of it as the era ofsurfacing.
A lot has surfaced over the past10 to 15 years, the reality of
indigenous people, black people,the reality for trans folks,
etc.
Etc.
The me to movement times up.
These movements came up and Ithink for men, for some of them,
(09:03):
the initial reaction is well,well, what about me?
Who has my back?
I'm struggling to have problemsto.
And I think that you know therecognizing that in the feminist
movements, by and large,they're also invested in the
well being of men.
I mean, we all know that womentend to be the mothers of the
men and boys and young men intheir lives, right?
(09:25):
So having to mother and takecare of emotionally, nurture, be
the counselor or the supportsystem for them, etc.
So I think there's that.
But then it's also helping manyyoung boys connect the dots
around why these issues affectthem.
But it should just not just beabout to their benefit but about
our collective benefit.
(09:46):
So I think that you know whatwe're seeing is we have an era
where movements that are counterto equality and justice you
want to say far right movementsradicalized right wing movements
.
I think what they have done isthey've co-opted approaches in
language and they've taken termsand flipped them on their head
(10:10):
and weaponized them.
So when men and young men heartoxic masculinity.
What they're hearing is I'mtoxic, or that's the way it's
landing for some of them, butit's to recognize that
masculinity isn't toxic.
If you think of it this way,it's like how we accessorize
masculinity.
If you think of the Barbie filmand how that blew up and a lot
(10:34):
of people want to go see it, andwe think of Barbies and
Kendall's, a lot of it isaccessorizing the doll right,
accessorizing your toy, and Ithink that men don't realize
that the Kendall really Ken canbe all these different things.
It's just how you accessorizehim, the things that you put on
him.
So, as men, our masculinity,the way we accessorize it to
(10:59):
feel powerful, to attain status,to feel self-worth and value,
is we weaponize ourselves, theaccessories we put on and the
ideas that strength oraggression are what are going to
make us men of virtue and valueand be valued.
So that's the pushback right.
(11:19):
The pushback is what about me?
And it's also the fear offacing the hard truths, because
all these things have surfaced,these truths and realities
around the world.
What's also surfaced is ourreaction to it.
Either we lean in and go.
What can I do?
How can I help?
How can I make a difference?
Or we lean back and we get intofight, flight or freeze mode
(11:42):
versus face that hard truth andI think, giving many young men
and boys role models, tools,examples of how to face hard
truths about ourselves, abouthow we impact each other's men
and boys, how we impact peopleof other genders, women and
gender expansive folks, thathelps deflate the tension, that
(12:04):
helps men exhale and relax andhear the conversation, because
the truth is they're hungry totalk about this issue.
Very clearly, they're flockingto all these alpha male
influences online because theywant to talk about it, but
they're not getting the realanswers and solutions.
(12:25):
They're getting quick fixesonline and that's part of the
challenge.
The work that you and otherfolks are doing myself as well
is to try to create a meetingpoint where they can take a step
forward and hear these thingsand think about how it impacts
them and how they can make adifference, how it impacts
(12:45):
everybody.
Jerusha Mack (12:46):
Yeah, no, you have such a great way of putting
things across, and in a waywhere it's not meant to be
confrontational or where it putspeople at ease, where it's
about inviting people into theconversation and not where it's
meant to be attacking in any way.
The facts are that the majorityand I know you know this the
(13:09):
majority of violence againstwomen is perpetrated by current
or former partners or husbands.
So 90 plus percent of the time,males are the perpetrators of
violence against women.
That's just statistics, that'sjust facts, and that could be
whether it's abuse or sexualviolence that holds true.
(13:30):
So often when we share thesestatistics, the automatic
response from some is well, youknow, men get abused too, and
absolutely we know that.
We know that men are victims ofabuse and some of them may not
report.
But I think you do a disserviceto the issue when if you aren't
(13:51):
getting to the root of theproblem, if we just wash over
everything and we aren't directabout this alarming fact that 90
percent of the time,perpetrators of violence are men
.
So I think, instead of beingdefensive, it would be great if
we could all lean in andquestion or explore why that is
so, what are your thoughts andwhy these statistics on abuse
(14:13):
are so gender skewed.
Jeff Perera (14:16):
Well, I think that you know.
So, going back to my analogy ofemotional muscle, you think of
how, again, this is generallyit's not the exception, there's
always exceptions to the rulebut generally the way we raise
young girls, and maybe this alsoincludes you know, gender
(14:36):
expansive folks.
Maybe it's young boys who at anearly age recognize that they're
gay, or the people around themtheir parents, caregivers read
them or recognize them as beinggay.
So, mostly for young girls, theway we raise them is that we,
you know, we give them Babydolls, cook sets, things where
(15:02):
they're learning to take care ofothers before they can even
take care of themselves.
So they're developing emotionalmuscle, if you will, and
literacy like empathy, love,compassion, nurturance.
What's great is that they'regiven the tools of nurturance
and that extends into their, youknow, from their young years to
(15:22):
bring preteens and teens andyoung adults and adults.
So they're getting the tools tonavigate relationships and then
eventually romantic, sexualrelationships and then adult
relationships, workrelationships, etc.
Etc.
They get more complex as theyget older, but for young men and
boys, we reach a certain pointand it could be five years old,
(15:43):
it could be a bit older wherethat emotional muscle stops
being worked and it's almostlike if someone snips it with a
pair of scissors and it's like,you know, the moment where
there's there's a impression onthem or there's a moment where
they realize they have to man up.
You know, the classic exampleis like someone telling a boy to
not cry.
Stop acting like you know.
(16:05):
Use whatever homophobic, sexistterm you want to use there.
Stop acting like a blank right.
And so what we created is thisidea that being a man is tough
and strong, I need to be thesolution, not the problem.
Anything less than that isconsidered soft or weak or
feminine.
So, as men, we devalue not justanyone that is feminine, but
(16:27):
anything, and that includestraits like empathy, love,
emotional intelligence.
So that atrophy of thatemotional muscle means that we
enter our preteens and teens andagain adulthood romantic sexual
relationships, workrelationships, friendships.
We don't have that muscle,We've not been developing it, so
we don't know how to, you know,navigate these situations.
(16:50):
So what we do have is the onething that we encourage each
other to express, which is anger, which is frustration, that
that trait or that emotion,Sorry.
So you're seeing that you knowthe way that young men and then
men navigate situations isthinking well, I just need to be
dominant in this situation, Ineed to be in control, I need to
(17:11):
assert, I need to be the, thealpha male in this, this
situation, or I need to justboss my way through it.
You know, and that there arecertain circumstances where
aggressiveness will lead tosuccess in the moment, but it
leads to failure as a humanbeing, and you know, I I even
(17:32):
example that my parents wereborn in Sri Lanka and got
together through an arrangedmarriage.
They moved to England beforethey came here to Canada and
before I was born, and my fatherwas not able to cope with the
challenges there in England andthen they moved here to Canada,
was not able to cope with thechallenges of being an immigrant
(17:53):
in in England where, you know,racism was very overt and he had
trouble fitting in, he had anaccent, et cetera, and then came
to Canada and the same thing aswell over, you know, 50 years
ago, not to say it's easier nowfor immigrants to assimilate
into quote, unquote, unsubmittedinto Canadian culture.
(18:13):
But part of the challenges thathe faced was he didn't have the
emotional muscle to navigatewhat he was going through.
So the way he resolved it orsolved it was, you know, beating
up my mom.
So for him physical violence wasa way to feel some kind of
control.
Who do I have power over?
Because my idea of being a manis is being in power right.
(18:40):
Having my status is defined byhaving power over someone.
So that's, you know, the, the,the, the, the line from not
having, as I described,emotional muscle, emotional
literacy pools and ways to copeand navigate the trials of
everyday life for young men andboys is a direct line to
(19:03):
violence, as, as a means, youknow, and unfortunately that
usually means power, the peoplewe hold power over, and that
usually means the women andgirls and, again, gender diverse
people in our lives.
Right, and what we see is, youknow, misogyny is the gateway
drug into hate.
So it's not just domesticviolence, intimate personal
(19:25):
violence that then springs board.
You'll see that a lot of massshooters, a lot of people who
cause mass harm, there is aninitial one of the first acts of
harm is to a woman in theirlife, maybe their mother, maybe
a partner, a wife, and that iskind of a springboard,
unfortunately, into a deeperdive into hatred, and it could
(19:48):
be hatred into, you know, whitesupremacy movements, male
supremacy movements, and toradicalizing into other hate
movements and groups.
So it's a very important issue.
It's one that is hard for mento to face.
There's a lot of shame aroundit.
There's shame of things we'vedone or shame, shame of things
(20:12):
that we haven't done, like lookthe other way or not spoke to
our male friends.
We know we can see are a bitcontrolling or in there and when
they're with their partners,you know, and not knowing how to
handle that because you don'thave the emotional muscle to
have that conversation with ourboys right.
So it's just, it's a spider webof how this grows and expands
(20:36):
and kind of entangles intoeveryday life.
So it's as men and boys.
I think it's important for usto find the courage to have
these hard conversations andreally look in the mirror and
face hard truths about ourselves.
Jerusha Mack (20:52):
And when you were just talking about like from the
formative years, because that'swhen it's all we're being fed
of like our roles and who we areand like our relation to other
people.
And I remember in high schoolgoing to my high school teacher
and telling him that the twoboys that he'd put me to work
with on a group project thatthey weren't doing anything they
(21:13):
had decided like oh, you can doit, we'll just get a free ride
off of you doing the work, kindof thing.
So I go to tell the teacherabout it and I remember to this
day the teacher looks at me andhe just says nonchalantly like
oh you know, boys will be boys.
Jeff Perera (21:28):
And that was the end of it.
Jerusha Mack (21:29):
So I remember that feeling of feeling like
defeated, like okay, well, whatam I going to do about it?
I was upset, but the teachersaid boys will be boys.
So I guess I'm just going tohave to put up with it.
So I just think now like whatdid?
Obviously, being at a young age, it was probably like grade
nine, like you're not, I'm notin that situation yet where I
(21:50):
had learned how to be assertiveand being able to, like stand in
the face of authority and say,well, actually that's not okay.
What do you mean?
Boys will be boys.
But now I think about, likewell, what did that teach me and
what did that teach those boys?
And what did that demonstratethen and even now, where I'm
sure it still happens of what weexpect from boys and what I
(22:10):
also learned about what I shouldbe willing to put up with.
And you have tackled thisstatement of boys will be boys
and you've said, like thatactually means that boys will be
broken.
So can you share more aboutwhat you mean by that?
Jeff Perera (22:25):
Yeah, I think that when we it's not just, you know,
as individuals, young men, boysand men needing to face
conversations of who we are.
I think it's as a collectivesociety recognizing that we
collectively reinforce ideas ofmanhood and you know I describe
(22:48):
it the phrase I like to use isharmful versus helpful ideas of
manhood Because, again, it's theway we accessorize our manhood.
So the harmful ideas of manhoodare what we kind of are these
traditions that we hand down asa society.
It looks different around theworld, but there's a lot of
(23:08):
commonalities, right, and ourideas of what a man is in, say,
japan or Russia or Jamaica orBrazil or China, can look
different on the surface, butthere's a lot of similar traits.
So I think it's, you know,collectively thinking about what
we're reinforcing with youngmen and boys.
(23:30):
And again, that emotionalmuscle.
Are we encouraging to helprebuild that muscle and grow it,
or are we helping them andenabling them rather to just be
stunted in their growth?
You know, Because I think thatyou know part of our role and
responsibility as role models,as models of possibility to the
(23:53):
many young boys in our lives,because I think and as people of
any gender, it's not just thatmen, obviously it's powerful to
have a man in your life as ayoung boy, as a young man, that
it gives an example of what itlooks like.
Because I think, as guys, atany age, we're looking for
examples of what to do and whatit looks like.
(24:13):
You know what it looks like tobe, you know, someone that's of
value, and so we tend to look toharmful examples, because
there's so very few realpositive models in everyday life
that we see in pop culture andmusic and the films and shows
you watch, never mind in ouractual everyday lives, tangible
(24:34):
role models.
So all that to say that when wekind of look at the work that's
needed and rather than kind ofstep up and say, yeah, we need
to talk about this or I need tohave a conversation with this
person, or we need to thinkabout the tradition of manhood
(24:55):
that we passed down in thisschool, in this workplace, in
this community, in this place ofworship, you know we need to
rather than have thoseconversations, it's easier to
just kind of laugh it off and go, oh, what are you going to do?
You know, it is what it is, andyou know it is what it is
because we allow it to be.
Jerusha Mack (25:13):
Exactly.
Jeff Perera (25:14):
So, you know, we can think about, you know, the
boys in our lives.
Are they on a trajectory?
Is there a point of no return,you know?
And if there is a point of noreturn, we want to catch them
before they get to that point.
And the point of no return iswhere they become harmful,
become people that cause greatharm.
(25:35):
So, you know, when we kind ofsay boys will be boys, what
we're saying is boys are brokenand what are you going to do
about it?
Well, that's the question, whatare you going to do about it?
And that's where we especiallyneed to do the heavy lifting, as
men and young men, around thiswork of emotional capacity,
(25:55):
emotional literacy, emotionalagility to handle problems in
our lives, where we work, live,worship, study and hang out.
So no one is, you know, no oneis exempt from, I think, a duty
to step up in this conversation.
Jerusha Mack (26:12):
Yeah, and I like how you highlight that it's when
it becomes harmful right,because it doesn't.
Somebody doesn't suddenly turnlike 30 something years old,
whatever the age is, andsuddenly they're perpetuating
violence or they're beingviolent towards a woman.
That's behavior that hasstarted maybe from a simple
something like an attitude andit's now perpetuated into an
(26:33):
actual behavior.
A lot of people may notrecognize, but we've come across
this a lot, especially withinour education program, where we
get teachers reaching out to usabout you know, can you come in
and do a presentation or do aworkshop?
Because they're havingunhealthy behaviors and
attitudes that are happeningwith boys even as young as grade
(26:54):
seven.
So a lot of these behaviors orattitudes are in the formative
years, when you're younger.
It doesn't just suddenlymanifest when it's a older,
older man in a relationship witha young woman, for example, or
an older woman.
So that's behavior that hasbeen coming from an attitude.
(27:18):
That's where it stems from.
Jeff Perera (27:21):
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely, and I think that you
know it's having the courage toreflect on what am I doing to
contribute to that.
Jerusha Mack (27:32):
What are?
Jeff Perera (27:32):
we doing to make a difference around that?
Jerusha Mack (27:34):
Yeah, yeah, and not being dismissive about it,
like you said, I want to shiftthe conversation a little to
focus on the influence of popculture, because we've been
talking a little bit aboutinfluence as well.
So I want to start by brieflylooking at the case study I
would call it of Kanye West andKim Kardashian.
So their well publicizedbreakup, where she later moved
(27:59):
on after their separation to arelationship with Pete Davidson,
and Kanye's behavior washarassing to Kim and her new
partner.
That's how I look at it.
And during that time when shewas dating Pete, kanye released
a music video which showed himkilling Pete Davidson and you
know some people laughed it off.
(28:20):
You know, oh, it's just Kanye.
Many of his fans even defendedhis behavior, and I want to read
a tweet that someone posted onTwitter.
So someone said I think it'sridiculous to say that this is
in any way threatening to Pete.
It's just another example ofhis hyperbolic artistic
expression, which he's beendoing for decades.
Now it's about the end of hismarriage.
(28:41):
So what are your thoughts onthat situation with?
I know it's past, but on whathappened there?
Jeff Perera (28:50):
Well, I mean the, if people are interested.
There's a video I have uponline about, about Kanye West,
and you know we talk aboutmisogyny as a gateway drug into
hate.
I think Kanye is a greatexample of that.
He so I'll tell you, like youknow, I to kind of give it a bit
of context as far as creativityand his, his, the art.
(29:15):
I was a huge fan of Kanye's artas far as creating music, the
sounds that he created, and asan artist, however, I also had
issue more and more with hislyrics and the content of lyrics
and more over his behavior.
and you could see in publicdemonstrations more and more
(29:39):
that Kanye had a verycontrolling dynamic over his
then wife, kim Kardashian.
And I know people.
You know it's very dangerouswhen we kind of make assumptions
and kind of try to assume thatwe know what's going on in
anyone's life, et cetera.
At the same time, I think weall know and I kind of brought
(30:00):
up earlier, a lot of us as menknow that couple.
We were friends with that guywho, when we see them with their
partner or maybe with a womanor maybe with their wife, we
were like, ooh, that's oh man, Idon't, I don't like how he's
treating her, I don't like theway he is towards her, like he's
(30:22):
not like that with me.
So a lot of men will vouch andsay you know, he's never been,
this man's never beenproblematic with me.
But of course, because it's adifferent dynamic, right, if
you're?
a woman working with this personor in a dating situation at the
bar or whatever.
You know it's a different.
It's a different energy, adifferent experience.
(30:42):
And so, seeing you know, yeh'songoing, kanye's ongoing harmful
treatment towards Kim,controlling it, yeah, and then
again when she and him broke upand you know she tactfully
(31:04):
carefully navigated, you know,talking about his mental health,
but then things that he neededto take ownership over, as you'd
see that Kanye was not handlingit well and I think what we've
seen is this is ongoing from theloss of his mother.
I think that was very impactfulfor for his kind of decline in
(31:30):
his mental health, but also hisway of handling it, his way of
coping again not having theemotional muscle to navigate
that storm Things got worse.
This isn't.
This isn't about valuing ordevaluing people's based on
their ability to cope.
I think we all struggle fromtime to time, but there are some
(31:51):
of us who have challengesaround mental wellness that do
need support, and I think Kanyeis someone who tried to get
support.
But sometimes we get in our ownway, you know.
We block our own shot, you know, and so, seeing the way that he
handled and navigated, you knowthe breakup and in a healthy
(32:11):
situation, you know, breakupsare hard, like any breakup is
going to be hard.
Jerusha Mack (32:16):
Right.
Jeff Perera (32:17):
But I think ultimately, you know you want
the best for that person, youwant the best for yourself and,
if you can work towards a placewhere you're at peace and you
wish them well and want them tobe happy.
This is the mother of hischildren, and not that that's
why she's a value, but it's one,one dynamic.
So at the very least it's likewell, for the sake of my kids, I
(32:38):
want her to be a healthy,functioning person in the world,
living a good life, becausethat will mean a good impact on
our kids, part of our dynamic asmother and father trying to
navigate how we raise the kidsseparately.
But yeah, we didn't see thatand, sad to say, I think a lot
(32:59):
of people could relate to thatsituation, because there are a
lot of us who know of or are insituations where we're trying to
navigate the dynamic ofmaintaining a relationship for
the sake of the kids as parentswho have split up or divorced,
and that's that is challenging.
But again is an example of whatnot to do for men and boys to
(33:25):
Kanye and it's thinking aboutwhat can that look like?
And you know I get thedefensiveness.
Men and young men, that's mygirl, that's my wife, all this
stuff, I understand thepossessiveness of it.
Yeah, and that's the problem islike wait a minute, that is me
possessing this person.
(33:45):
Yeah, all of these things arenot controlling, and etc.
It's not about you know, mywife, my daughter, my, etc.
These are human beings.
They are their own people, likeyou are your own person.
But, when you're not in a place, you know you're not in a well
place.
And again, for me that meansunderstanding.
(34:09):
My value as a man is not basedon dominance over others, or who
I possess or who I own.
Jerusha Mack (34:17):
It's about having a healthy relationship with all
these things, including yourself, for as informed as yeah, so
two of the things that came upfor me was like when you were
saying earlier, like thecontrolling aspect, there are
some things that we can kind ofromanticize.
I remember, again, like yousaid, we don't know the
intricacies or the behind thescenes of their relationship and
(34:37):
what happened, but I rememberwhen Kim would say, like you
know, when she first starteddating him, like you know, he
cleared out her closet and likebrought in like all this stuff
about what she should wear andhe was very much behind the of
how she should present herselfand what she should wear, and
she's openly said this as well.
right, and I know you mightthink well, you know he's
exposing her to some, you knownew fashion and like designers
(35:00):
and things like that, but justin like our regular sphere of
the world and not the celebrityworld, like that is something
that happens in abusiverelationships where it's like I
don't want you to wear this.
You should wear this forvarious reasons, right?
And just displaying that control.
I mean, somebody can say oh,there's some like designer
clothes, but like when it's thatcontrolling aspect.
(35:21):
I feel like there is thatdifferentiating line for sure.
Jeff Perera (35:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think, as men, one of the
things we can do is, you know,gently but with intention, to
reflect on ourselves and ourbehavior, and it's hard
sometimes to take someone topoint it out.
You know, you don't see it.
Jerusha Mack (35:43):
Exactly.
Jeff Perera (35:44):
You know.
But it's like you know.
I can understand that theremight be certain ways that you
like seeing your partner appear,the ways you like their hair or
the kind of when you wear thisor whatever.
But recognizing what I loveabout this person is that they
are their own person and I wantto celebrate and acknowledge
that and support them in beingtheir own person, because their
(36:06):
happiness is my happiness, etc.
And I understand that you knowKanye and Kim.
They are brands as much as theyare people right.
Like there is their publicpersona and, let's be honest,
like there are things they do.
Like you know, Kim has areality show.
She puts her life out forpeople to consume as part of the
product of the brand Right.
(36:26):
But, she's a person as well.
So, if you know, Kanye is like,hey, I have this.
I want to project this certainkind of image for the next
upcoming album.
I want to create some publickind of talk about us.
Can we dress a certain way?
You know there's a way to kindof navigate that, but yeah.
I think it's very clear thatthis is more about him wanting
to as if she was attracted.
(36:49):
He's producing as if he was asong.
I want you to look like this,sound like this, be like this,
put this here, put that there,you know, and.
I think it's someone as aproducer who is, you know, again
, we give people so much, youknow, permission to be harmful
because we'll say, oh, he's suchan artistic, he's a visionary,
(37:09):
etc.
And I get that, that's why,creatively, he was so incredible
.
It is art, but that also meanssometimes being stubborn headed.
That means being I want it myway, and if you're producing a
song, well, that's your song,you can do what you want, but
that's not how you live a life,you know, like I can't produce
and create and control my kidsor my, my, my partner?
(37:32):
I mean, obviously there are menand young men that do and that's
leads to a destructive path.
And, unfortunately, when we seemen and young men relating to
Kanye, it's because they'reseeing that in them, they're
seeing themselves in that andthey're getting defensive.
But what's wrong with that?
Why can't he have what he wants?
It's like well, that's not,that's not called being in a
relationship.
That's, yeah, that's a tyranny.
Jerusha Mack (37:55):
Yeah, and making the video and saying, like being
dismissive towards it andsaying, oh, it's art.
I think that's one of thethings that we talk about as
well, like it's not just aboutbeing in a relationship, but
also when you break up.
There's a healthy way to breakup and it's not about
terrorizing the other person andlike harassing them or being
harmful to them in any way.
(38:16):
It's not about that you nolonger, like you said, have
ownership of them, that you knowthat's my girl or my guy or
whatever.
It is right and that goes backto with domestic violence or
abuse that when women leavetheir relationship, that's the
time that they're the most atrisk of being harmed because the
(38:38):
abuser no longer has controlover them.
So not saying that.
I'm not relating this to Kim orKanye again, I don't know the
intricacies of their stuff, butyou can see a lot of that
harmful behavior came out whenshe separated and moved on with
another guy.
So that's not something that wewant to emulate, where we think
it's okay to then send a bunchof text messages or post stuff
on social media that'sdisparaging to that person.
(38:59):
There's a way to move on from arelationship in a healthy way
as well, and it's good to callout when we're seeing non
healthy ways of that in popculture.
Jeff Perera (39:11):
Yes, and part of the problem is that we don't
have examples of that we need tohave models of what it can look
like.
I think one of the challengesis that we as a society is this
kind of tug of war we're having,where we're telling young men
and boys to be better, do better, but there are no examples of
(39:31):
how what that looks like.
The example it was used is whenwe tell men no means no.
Young men and boys and menmight hear okay, so what does
yes look like?
Do I keep pushing until I heara no?
Not understanding the conceptof what that kind of flow can
look like.
Back and forth Consent isn'tlike a key that you're trying to
(39:55):
obtain to unlock something.
You're not trying to manipulatesomeone giving up the key.
It's like it's an ongoingrelationship based on respect
and trust and vulnerability andit's not me getting vulnerable
in exchange for the key tounlock consent.
It's vulnerable because I'mvaluing that just for the sake
(40:17):
of I value you opening up and Ivalue being able to open up with
you and creating that kind ofspace of trust and growth.
And there are examples, I guess, of that in pop culture, but
it's quote unquote.
It's girly Like, it's like softlove songs or it's romantic
movies that everyday guys may ormay not be interested in
(40:37):
watching.
So there aren't examples in thecontent we consume, that in the
way we perform manhood to eachother as men in real life.
More importantly, where we needmore examples of opening up and
talking about relationships andnot like, oh yeah, you know,
(40:57):
that's the way women are.
I'm not going to use theexplicit language, but we all
know the terms that men mightsay to console other men around
relationships and stuff.
It's like, hey, it's opening upand saying hey look, I've been
there too.
Here's what I did about it.
You know, I know it's toughwhen this happens in a
relationship.
Here's what I've done around it.
Or here's what I'm doing aroundit.
(41:19):
Or I'm having that problem too.
Like, what do you think we cando, like around that?
Like you know, I know thatsounds some guys would be like I
can't have that conversationwith my male friends.
Well, that's, that's part ofthe challenge, and I think it's
saying, hey, I want to deepenour friendship.
You know, like I care about youI love you and, as a friend, I
want to be able to be someonethat we can talk about this
(41:41):
stuff with.
And that's the growth, right,it's not going to happen
overnight.
It's building that muscle, youknow, or that is being invested
in this.
Conversations matter becauseyou know, it's about me and it's
about the people in my lifethat I do love and I love, and I
think that's me and it's aboutthe people in my life that I do
(42:02):
love and care about, and notjust romantic, sexual, like any
kind of relationship, any kindof dynamic with family, loved
ones, co workers, etc.
Jerusha Mack (42:10):
Yeah.
So the second example that Iwanted to talk about and you
kind of mentioned it earlierabout alpha males and how that's
been really men flock to it.
So I wanted to chat a bit aboutandrutate.
I didn't actually know who hewas until a young man in my
family mentioned his name.
Oh my God, I don't know whothat is.
So for those of you who don'tknow, so he's a well known
(42:30):
influencer on TikTok.
He has a huge following andhe's gained significant traction
with young men, and he promotesthe idea of male supremacy and
female inferiority, and thepremise of a lot of his content
revolves around the idea thatmen and their behaviors, it
should be aggressive andderogatory and violent, and so
(42:54):
an example would be he openlyshares his views that women are
the property of men and thatwomen bear responsibility for
their attacks in rape cases.
So those things seem so likeoutlandish and outrageous, and
yet he has this large following.
So what is it about him thatseemingly has resonated so much
(43:17):
with young men and boys thathe's attained this large
following and influence?
Jeff Perera (43:22):
Yeah, no, it's such an important topic.
I think that.
Think about the era that we'rein, especially and it was
accelerated through the pandemic.
Yeah, you could think of itlike the stormy waters that
we're living in society.
It's, it's an era ofuncertainty, and it was like
that before the pandemic, but wejust all deep dived into this
(43:42):
deep uncertainty about the worldaround us.
And so in this, you know, samestorm, different boats, right?
So some of us are in thesestormy waters and we know how to
swim.
Some of us don't know how toswim.
Some of us are in a yacht or ina luxury, you know, like a
(44:02):
cruise ship.
Some of us are in a ricketyraft that we put together, right
, Emotionally, this is how we'renavigating these things.
So you can imagine, for a lotof young men and boys, an era of
uncertainty means that we're inthe water and we're struggling.
We don't have the emotionalmuscle, we don't know how to
swim.
Some of us are drowning andstruggling, so looking for solid
ground, and when you're in thewater, you're desperate like
(44:24):
anything.
What can help me and you havehere, you have online figures
like Andrew Tate.
Tate's history is he comes froma broken home where you know,
his father was a chess player,always on the road, and when he
did show up he was.
He had a very, you know, unwelltoxic relationship with his
(44:45):
wife.
Jerusha Mack (44:46):
So they moved to.
Jeff Perera (44:47):
England, like Tate and his brother and sister and
mother moved to England and youknow thinking about how Tate
navigated that lack of a fatherfigure.
It was him becoming like I needto be the man in my own life
and I need to be the alpha maleTo navigate this stuff.
(45:09):
So he learned and quicklyrealized.
You know, he was on a show inthe UK called Big Brother.
Big Brother is obviously veryfamous here in North America but
in the UK it's huge, it's ajuggernaut show and he was on
the show was kicked off when avideo surfaced of him being
violent towards a woman and.
But when you saw him on the showhe was a very meek, quiet.
(45:31):
People talked over him.
You know very nerdy guy but hewas a mixed martial arts guy.
So he was someone who's tryingto find his voice, someone who's
trying to find power, you know,and he discovered that.
You know it's I need to turn upthe volume on my performance of
masculinity, so hypermasculinity of like over the top
(45:55):
, a noxious to the point of likebeing a cartoon character,
right.
Jerusha Mack (45:58):
Yeah.
Jeff Perera (45:58):
So here are these young men and boys struggling in
the water, needing anything,and Andrew Dick, you know is,
comes across in his like luxuryyacht, right, if you will, and
he tosses them life jackets.
And the life jacket is.
It's time for men to be menagain.
You need to be alpha males, youneed to be in control.
You're weak, you're poor.
That his language right.
(46:19):
You're broke.
Ease all this stuff.
You need to be like me, likelearn to swim, let's go be like
me.
So that kind of tough love thing.
When as men we don't have theemotional muscle, we speak in a
language of tough love, likeaggressiveness, that that kind
of fits in and he feels like abit of a father figure role
model.
But the reality is, I thinkthat young men and boys, like we
(46:43):
, know that manhood for us, thisharmful idea of manhood that we
try to portray it's an act.
You need to prove To otherpeople you don't really have
these things.
You got to act it out.
So you got to pretend and prove.
So as men, we're conditioned tobe actors, like to act and
perform, and so I think thatyoung men and boys know that and
(47:06):
they recognize that and AndrewTate that he's got the he's got
game is the way that we describeit right.
They're the slang of and theyvalue that in him that they deep
down know it's an act.
But like me, like him, he's oneof us.
He was the, the meek nerdy,broken home, didn't have a good
father, but he's, he's found anact and he's weaponized his
(47:28):
masculinity and he found a trick.
And I want to do that too.
I want the truth.
I want to do that too.
I want the quick fix, I wantthe quick solution.
So, rather than learning how toswim and developing emotional
muscle, I just quickly want thisyacht and he's throwing me this
life jacket.
The life jacket is harmfulideas of manhood.
(47:49):
The reality is, as as manyyoung men and boys, we need to
learn to swim and find a way tosolid ground, and that's hard
work.
Give me the quick fix, give methe quick solution.
That's holding power over women, that's Bullying other boys to
feel powerful over them.
You know I'm stronger than you,I have more money than you, or
(48:10):
whatever, um and whoever I needto con or Fool or manipulate to
get that power versus trying tofind solid ground, you know.
And so I think, as, as I'll seefor myself and other men.
We need to be lighthouses thatare helping young men and boys
(48:32):
find their way out of the stormywaters and find solid ground,
because the easy Fix is thiskind of like these false you
know, like these again fake lifejackets of certainty that Tate
throws them, so these young guysin stormy waters will kind of
grab on to it.
And he's very accessible, he'svery coddling, you know.
(48:53):
It's like it's not you, they'reout to get you.
His language is, you know, it'sthe matrix.
That's how to get me, they'reout to get you, you know.
Versus what a good role modelshould do is say this isn't your
fault, that you're struggling,but what are you going to do
about it?
Here's what we can do.
We can, you know again, um,building our emotional muscle is
(49:15):
like getting a therapist, likea physical, like a physical
trainer for your body, atherapist or a counselor for
your emotional well-being.
Um, you go to the gym with theboys and you spot each other
physically, emotionally.
We can spot each other Talkingabout these things and not
always leaving it to the womenin our lives to have to mother
us and be our counselors and beour support systems.
(49:38):
We can do that as well, you know, and so I think those are the
kind of anecdotes to the AndrewTate's of the world.
But it's it's.
It's hard when life is unstable, when you're struggling, you
don't have the muscle to theability to swim and the man is
fear.
This, these Online spaces ofhate.
(49:59):
I think a lot of folks don'trealize how vast and how deep it
is, how much content there isout there that is hyper
misogynist, hyper sexist and allall different, you know, all
different ways of uh, men goingthe wrong way versus Finding a
healthy, helpful way forward.
Jerusha Mack (50:24):
You know, we talked about Kanye and like his
music a bit, and then withAndrew Tate and his like
influence, right, and whenyou're having these
conversations as I've tried todo with, like you know, some of
the young men that I know, Ifind that sometimes you come
across when you're talking aboutlike, you know the music lyrics
and the imagery, and the musiclyrics and the imagery, and then
you get the counterpoint oflike oh, you know, it's just art
(50:46):
, or you know, just because,like you know, I see this it
doesn't mean that I'm gonna golike, do it, like that doesn't
have an effect on me.
So it's almost like people havethis apathetic approach towards
like.
When you talk about music,lyrics or the content or the
imagery or cultural influences,like, unfortunately, andrew Tate
, they see it as like benign andlike non influential to their
(51:08):
own attitudes or behaviors.
Um, they're like well, thatdoesn't affect me, like so.
So how do you when, even whenyou talk about video games,
which we do right, and like theviolence that's in video games,
how do you get people to like,become more self-aware of like
these things as actualinfluences?
Jeff Perera (51:29):
Yeah, I think that's one of the the trickier
pieces with the conversation iswe have, we?
It's an era of immediacy, right?
It's like what I see in frontof me is that's all that matters
.
Like, and again, if I want toperform to others that I have
these things, I'm gonna look topeople who are doing that.
So a lot of young people seeonline the person who's like oh,
(51:52):
I made you know, I made amillion dollars before by the
time I hit 20, or you know, ifyou're not driving a Lambo by a
certain point or a failure, ifyou're not in your 20s, you
don't have a Lambo, you're afailure and so.
So what you're not seeing isthat there's a lot of scams, a
lot of con artistry, a lot ofmanipulation, and there are some
young boys who don't know that,but I think many of them know
(52:15):
that it's, this is the scam.
Just like I'm trying to scamother people, I'm trying to
influence other people, pretendthat I'm something I'm not.
So when we're coming along andwe're trying to say to them you
know, this language is harmful,these things Will lead you down
a path, they're like yeah,whatever, I mean, like it's just
(52:35):
, these are just jokes.
Yeah, I think the culture wehave right now, too, is one that
Is very much.
You know, there's a phrasethat's used called irony, irony
poisoning, and what we're seeingis a lot of kind of like, you
know, like the reaction toeverything around us is that
people Are in overwhelm, and Ithink young people are in
(52:59):
overwhelm again.
I talk about these stormywaters, right.
So it's like seeing what'shappening around us different
conflicts, different.
It feels like there's so manydifferent battles around us not
being able to trust leaders,feeling they can't trust
government or trust one another.
You know, one of the ways that alot of us are handling it is
just like this it's a laugh itoff, you know, and I mean that's
(53:22):
our and we do that throughoutTime is that, you know, comedy
is based on tragedy and then wekind of have to cope and we
laugh things off.
But there's laughing to kind ofsay like I get it, let's find a
way forward, and there'slaughing things off to Pretend
it's, to devalue it and to kindof, you know, say it's not real,
(53:43):
to the point where you know andI think an example, this is
another person that we didn'ttalk about influence or online,
joe Rogan, a lot of what he'sdone over the years is he's kind
of have seen examples of whitesupremacy, male supremacy, and
laugh it off.
See, it's not real.
This is just a joke, like whatare you talking about?
You know?
And what that does is it'savoiding the hard conversation.
(54:07):
So the trick is is gettingpeople to recognize here's where
it starts, here's where itleads right, where jokes and
language Can go down this road.
And so if you have people whoare fixated on Looking at right
now, the immediacy of now, andthey're not thinking about Down
(54:29):
the road, 10 years from now, 20years from now, what legacy am I
going to leave?
They're not thinking about thefuture or the planet, they're
just thinking about I just needto kind of Take care of me right
now, in this moment.
There is a lack of empathy.
There's a huge empathy deficit.
You know, yeah, there's a hugefamine of trust.
So it's the challenge is for usis to build trust and to build
(54:56):
Empathy with our audience, withthe people listening Uh in, in
the, in the case of talking to agroup of young boys, it's
getting them to be invested incaring.
You know, and it starts whatyou have to start with.
It should be enough to say I'ma woman or here's a person who
is in struggle and they're, theyneed help, they're a human
(55:18):
being, they have value, theirlife has value.
It should be enough andeveryone should stand up and go.
I agree, what can I do?
How can I help?
That's not the world we live in, especially now.
So the challenge is how do weGet young men and boys to invest
in humanity and the humanity ofothers, and I think it starts
with building their own humanity.
(55:40):
Right, because part of the thetrick of being a man today Is is
discarding your own humanity.
For these young boys thatstarts with jokes like
everything's a joke, it doesn'tmatter.
Yeah, what you're doing isdevaluing a group of people with
transphobic, racist, homophobicjokes and you're devaluing
their humanity.
What you're doing is you'reDevaluing your own humanity, you
(56:03):
are dehumanizing yourself andthat you don't care, you don't
have empathy.
You are, you know, a soullessperson, is where you moment,
when you might look at it.
So I think that helping themrecognize this conversation is
about you.
We are invested in you,building trust with them,
helping them recognize that I'minvested in your humanity as
(56:26):
much as the people I'madvocating for.
So I'm also advocating for youLike I want.
I'm not telling you do betterbecause you're not good enough,
cause as men and young men andboys, we're conditioned that the
language is that we're notenough.
I'm not enough of a man, I'mnot strong enough, smart enough,
my body isn't tough enough, Idon't have enough money, I come
from a poor family, blah, blah,blah, blah, all these different
(56:48):
things.
So when we say, be a good man,do better, be better, it falls
in that lens of you're not goodenough, you're not enough of a
man.
You need to be more of a man.
And they'll remedy it the wrongway by doubling down on hyper
masculinity, toxic masculinity,versus investing in building
their own humanity.
And that has to start with usencouraging them to build and
(57:11):
rebuild their emotional muscle,their humanity, and that is the
hardest road.
That's why it's so much easierLike hate movements right now
are making a killing.
Jerusha Mack (57:23):
You know, hate cells.
Jeff Perera (57:24):
It's a simpler, easier solution.
Blame someone else.
It's not my problem.
You know my, my the no mirrorsin my house.
It's all windows.
I look out and I point thefinger to the people.
Rather than looking in themirror and say this is about me.
What can I do for it?
Do differently.
So all that to say like, yeah,like it's.
It's such a criticalconversation and it's the hard
(57:47):
work that's ahead.
And that's that's why it's soimportant that you know like the
work that Houghton's WomenPlace and folks like you are
doing, it needs to be supportedand we need, as a community, to
invest in it, because that'swhere the change happens.
I don't know what's like yeah,duh, we get that, but no, I
think people don't reallyrealize like that's why it's so
(58:08):
critical.
You know it's hard work.
Jerusha Mack (58:10):
Yeah, I wanna.
I wanna end the conversationwith something that you've said.
So you said it's time to drawnew maps to manhood.
So I want you could you sharewith our listeners what that
means and how do they start thisredrawing?
Like, what's your final call toaction for our listeners?
Jeff Perera (58:33):
Yeah, I think that you know our ideas of manhood.
We've been talking about thisthroughout.
Yeah, it's having examples ofwhat it can look like, models of
possibility, and the reality isthat there's not one way
forward for men.
It's a multitude right.
For every man there's adifferent idea of what manhood
(58:54):
is like for them, what it lookslike, right.
But it's finding your own map,your own way forward, and to do
that is what you need is youneed a compass.
You need a compass right Tonavigate, to find your way
forward, cause manhood isn'treally something you, it's not a
place you arrive at.
You get a certificate, you know, congratulations, you're now a
(59:17):
man.
Like we have different rightsand rituals around the world,
different cultures around youngboys entering manhood, but the
reality is, like being a man isa constant, ongoing thing
throughout your life, thedifferent stages of the life
cycle.
So for me, I think it's findingyour way forward is about
having a compass and I thinkthat, as men, having an inner
(59:37):
compass towards a healthier ideaof manhood.
Part of that is it's a fourstep thing.
It's determining who you are,determining your values, what
matters, what's important, andthen two is being what you
believe I need to be the personI believe that I am right, and
the third part of that, then, isthat you show up for the
(59:59):
consequences of that.
So if I stand up and I valuewomen and girls, it's being that
in the way I carry myself, notjust what I say, but what I do
and there will be consequencesfor that and showing up for
those consequences.
And the fourth part is doingbetter than our yesterdays.
I talked about men feelingpressured to do better, be
(01:00:21):
better.
Being better is not beingbetter than everyone else.
Like as manhood, it's all aboutcompetition and conquest.
I gotta be the best man, thetoughest guy, so it's not about
being better than that guy orthis guy.
It's about doing better than myyesterdays, being better than
the person I was yesterday, andthat's the humility that will
help guide us forward.
And so, for me, all that comesdown to is being the lesson in
(01:00:45):
action.
I think a lot of us don't havethe models or the examples, so
we need to be that for ourselvesand find that in each other.
I think that's so important,and it's the hard work that will
get us there, towards change,and in striving to be an ally,
striving to be someone that is ahelper, not a fixer.
(01:01:09):
My value is not in solving orfixing the issue.
I'm not here to save women andgender diverse people.
I'm here to help.
How can I serve, how can I beof service?
Because that's strength.
So, yeah, I think it'srecognizing those things and how
we can be better teammatesreally to one another in our
(01:01:31):
everyday lives.
Jerusha Mack (01:01:33):
Thank you Really.
Wise words, jeff.
I wanna thank you for joiningus today.
This was such a greatconversation.
I know I learned a lot, and I'msure our listeners did as well.
So thank you so much.
Jeff Perera (01:01:45):
Thank you for having me.
Jerusha Mack (01:01:47):
Thanks for listening.
I hope today's episode inspiresyou to start exploring ways you
can be an ally, or that itstarts the journey of
self-reflection where you beginto examine your influences.
Maybe now you're one stepcloser to being able to
challenge harmful attitudes orbehaviors you see, or maybe even
that you do.
(01:02:08):
I encourage you to start aconversation today with someone,
or even within yourself, on howyou can foster healthier
relationships in your own lifeand in your community.
Until next time, rememberchange is possible.
Together, we can create a moreequitable and respectful world.
I'll see you next time.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Learn to Love
podcast.
You are now on the air with HWP.
This podcast is presented byHalton Women's Place.
We are the only women shelterin our region for women and
children experiencing abuse.
On air with HWP is about havingconversations that educate,
empower and create safe futureswithout violence.
(00:23):
I'm your host, jerusia Mack,and today we're delving into
some contentious waters.
We're exploring therelationship between males and
the issue of violence againstwomen.
I'm joined by my special guest,jeff Pereira, who is a speaker,
writer and facilitator whodelivers keynotes and workshops
about masculinity and maleallyship.
(00:45):
He is leading the field inconversations on manhood and
gender-based violence.
I'm so pleased to have you joinme today, jeff.
Thank you for being here.
Jeff Perera (00:55):
Thank you for having me.
Jerusha Mack (00:57):
Absolutely.
I've been wanting to have thisconversation for a while, so
really pleased that we're ableto have you here today.
So, like I mentioned before,our topic today is incredibly
important, but it can becontentious, in my role with
education and awareness.
At our shelter, we often talkabout the importance of men in
(01:19):
helping to end domestic violence, so today I wanted to chat
about these concepts that youwill often hear about male
allyship and toxic masculinityand I also wanted to get your
insight on some pop culturesituations that received a lot
of attention.
Being an ally, I feel, is astatement that is very much used
in our culture, but I'm notsure if people really understand
(01:41):
what that means.
So what does it mean to be amale ally and why is that
important?
Jeff Perera (01:47):
Yeah, you know, I think it's such a critical
conversation for us to havearound allyship and I, you know
the language I like to use isstriving to be an ally, you know
, I think it's something thatyou're looking to attain, a
status that not necessarily thatyou label yourself, but more
that people will label you basedon your actions, the way you
(02:09):
carry yourself, the way youhandle situations, the way you
look out for women and genderexpansive people, whether
they're in the room or not, thewomen you know or don't know.
You know thinking of people ofall genders.
And, yeah, like I think youknow, I think a lot about, back
in the day, mothers againstdrunk driving, mad.
(02:31):
They created this concept, thislanguage, the phrase was
designated driver and you thinkabout how now that's like such a
everyday language that peopleare very familiar with, right
away, know what you're talkingabout, and the idea is that
someone you know chose todesignate themselves as someone
(02:52):
who'd be, you know, not drinkingthat night.
So for those who drank and goout and celebrate and, you know,
use alcohol, the person wouldpledge to not drink and be the
safe ride home and so they wentto drive everyone home that
night and I think about thatkind of language.
(03:13):
And you know it's based reallyon their actions and the
responsibility andaccountability they take on.
And you know, I think it's greatwhen men want to identify as
allies, but again it's, it's notso much impressive to me for a
man, for example, to go up to abunch of women and say, well,
you know, I'm an ally.
(03:34):
I think it's impressive for aman to go up to other men you
know whether it's in the lockerroom, at the bar, you know in
the lunchroom and say that, youknow, I, I support women and
girls and gender diverse people,or I'm here to advocate and
support them in a variety ofways.
And again, not just in wordsbut in deeds, in action and how
(03:55):
you carry yourself.
So I think it's an importantconversation and it's one that
you know, I get.
I get that it's veryintimidating for everyday guys
because it feels like such atense conversation.
It feels, you know, verychallenging, difficult to keep
on top of the language, on topof the issues.
(04:16):
But that's, that's where youknow it's.
It's if you are invested insomething, you recognize the
hard work that goes in it, youknow into it.
So I think that you know, likewhen we think about anything
that we strive for in our lives.
There's work that goes into it.
And you know, a part of that iskind of building up.
(04:37):
I describe it, we could talkabout it more.
I talk about men building ouremotional muscle.
And you know, when men arecommitted to building physical
muscle, you know like they wantto play rec sports on the
weekend or they just want to bein better shape, better state of
health.
They commit to doing that work.
(04:57):
And you know that work is likeone to the gym getting a trainer
.
And that leads to, you know,when you you you have a good
workout, there's discomfort.
48 hours later, 24 hours later,you look, you learn to look
forward to that burn of buildingthat muscle.
I think for us, as men, tobuild our emotional muscle means
(05:18):
, you know, learning to get asthe same goes, get comfortable
with the discomfort of thesetopics because you're invested
in what the end result will beand that is, you know, a safer
place to safer world for womenand gender expansive people.
Jerusha Mack (05:35):
Yeah, and I love that analogy that you use of the
designated driver and alsohighlighting that it's about
action, because I think a lot ofit can be like you know, like
you said, oh, I'm an ally, okay,what does that mean?
Like it's not performative,like what does it actually mean?
And like your day to day lifeand how, like you brought up
about maybe having conversationswith your friends or being the
(05:57):
person to say, hey, that's notokay or that's not cool, right?
So yes actually about action andnot just about, like this fancy
full word that we use thatsounds great, right?
A term that we often hear aswell is toxic masculinity, and I
found that when you use termslike that, people can find it
(06:17):
off putting or theyautomatically become defensive.
It's a term that sometimes,when we're in some of our
presentations, that's that comesup and automatically, like
young men, they feel like theyare being attacked or they think
that you know someone.
When they use that term,they're saying that all men are
bad.
So where do you think that thatpushback or defensiveness comes
(06:40):
from and how can we get aroundthat in order to call in men and
young boys into becoming allies?
Jeff Perera (06:47):
Yeah, you know, I think I think that one of the
challenges that we have aroundthese issues, when it comes to
gender based violence and youknow, overall, just the, the
women's rights and valuingwomen's bodies, voices, lives
and experiences, I think part ofthe challenge is, you know, I
(07:14):
think that there's definitelyreasons for men and young men
and boys to be invested in thisconversation, partly because you
know, obviously, as we know,patriarchy, the structures that
benefit men.
However, there's also strugglesand hardships that we
(07:35):
experience as men.
And you know it's notnecessarily about the oppression
Olympics of who has it worse,but I think it's also
recognizing that you know womenand gender expansive people are
experiencing you know extremeoppression, a genocide or
femicide.
You know homophobia,transphobia, and it's very
crushing throughout the world.
(07:57):
But these are hardships alsothat men and young men and boys
face to and they're linked.
So the kind of the idea of ourcollective liberation is part of
it.
But it's also thinking about.
You know that this isn't at myexpense.
This conversation of change, ofequality, of justice, of peace
(08:17):
of mind, body and spirit is notat my expense as a man or young
men and boys.
So I think for a lot of youngmen and boys that the challenges
when it comes to thisconversation up front, the
feeling is you know it's, it'sfight, flight or freeze, because
I think part of the challengewe have today, in this era of
(08:38):
learning about each other andeach other's experiences, you
can think of it as the era ofsurfacing.
A lot has surfaced over the past10 to 15 years, the reality of
indigenous people, black people,the reality for trans folks,
etc.
Etc.
The me to movement times up.
These movements came up and Ithink for men, for some of them,
(09:03):
the initial reaction is well,well, what about me?
Who has my back?
I'm struggling to have problemsto.
And I think that you know therecognizing that in the feminist
movements, by and large,they're also invested in the
well being of men.
I mean, we all know that womentend to be the mothers of the
men and boys and young men intheir lives, right?
(09:25):
So having to mother and takecare of emotionally, nurture, be
the counselor or the supportsystem for them, etc.
So I think there's that.
But then it's also helping manyyoung boys connect the dots
around why these issues affectthem.
But it should just not just beabout to their benefit but about
our collective benefit.
(09:46):
So I think that you know whatwe're seeing is we have an era
where movements that are counterto equality and justice you
want to say far right movementsradicalized right wing movements
.
I think what they have done isthey've co-opted approaches in
language and they've taken termsand flipped them on their head
(10:10):
and weaponized them.
So when men and young men heartoxic masculinity.
What they're hearing is I'mtoxic, or that's the way it's
landing for some of them, butit's to recognize that
masculinity isn't toxic.
If you think of it this way,it's like how we accessorize
masculinity.
If you think of the Barbie filmand how that blew up and a lot
(10:34):
of people want to go see it, andwe think of Barbies and
Kendall's, a lot of it isaccessorizing the doll right,
accessorizing your toy, and Ithink that men don't realize
that the Kendall really Ken canbe all these different things.
It's just how you accessorizehim, the things that you put on
him.
So, as men, our masculinity,the way we accessorize it to
(10:59):
feel powerful, to attain status,to feel self-worth and value,
is we weaponize ourselves, theaccessories we put on and the
ideas that strength oraggression are what are going to
make us men of virtue and valueand be valued.
So that's the pushback right.
(11:19):
The pushback is what about me?
And it's also the fear offacing the hard truths, because
all these things have surfaced,these truths and realities
around the world.
What's also surfaced is ourreaction to it.
Either we lean in and go.
What can I do?
How can I help?
How can I make a difference?
Or we lean back and we get intofight, flight or freeze mode
(11:42):
versus face that hard truth andI think, giving many young men
and boys role models, tools,examples of how to face hard
truths about ourselves, abouthow we impact each other's men
and boys, how we impact peopleof other genders, women and
gender expansive folks, thathelps deflate the tension, that
(12:04):
helps men exhale and relax andhear the conversation, because
the truth is they're hungry totalk about this issue.
Very clearly, they're flockingto all these alpha male
influences online because theywant to talk about it, but
they're not getting the realanswers and solutions.
(12:25):
They're getting quick fixesonline and that's part of the
challenge.
The work that you and otherfolks are doing myself as well
is to try to create a meetingpoint where they can take a step
forward and hear these thingsand think about how it impacts
them and how they can make adifference, how it impacts
(12:45):
everybody.
Jerusha Mack (12:46):
Yeah, no, you have such a great way of putting
things across, and in a waywhere it's not meant to be
confrontational or where it putspeople at ease, where it's
about inviting people into theconversation and not where it's
meant to be attacking in any way.
The facts are that the majorityand I know you know this the
(13:09):
majority of violence againstwomen is perpetrated by current
or former partners or husbands.
So 90 plus percent of the time,males are the perpetrators of
violence against women.
That's just statistics, that'sjust facts, and that could be
whether it's abuse or sexualviolence that holds true.
(13:30):
So often when we share thesestatistics, the automatic
response from some is well, youknow, men get abused too, and
absolutely we know that.
We know that men are victims ofabuse and some of them may not
report.
But I think you do a disserviceto the issue when if you aren't
(13:51):
getting to the root of theproblem, if we just wash over
everything and we aren't directabout this alarming fact that 90
percent of the time,perpetrators of violence are men
.
So I think, instead of beingdefensive, it would be great if
we could all lean in andquestion or explore why that is
so, what are your thoughts andwhy these statistics on abuse
(14:13):
are so gender skewed.
Jeff Perera (14:16):
Well, I think that you know.
So, going back to my analogy ofemotional muscle, you think of
how, again, this is generallyit's not the exception, there's
always exceptions to the rulebut generally the way we raise
young girls, and maybe this alsoincludes you know, gender
(14:36):
expansive folks.
Maybe it's young boys who at anearly age recognize that they're
gay, or the people around themtheir parents, caregivers read
them or recognize them as beinggay.
So, mostly for young girls, theway we raise them is that we,
you know, we give them Babydolls, cook sets, things where
(15:02):
they're learning to take care ofothers before they can even
take care of themselves.
So they're developing emotionalmuscle, if you will, and
literacy like empathy, love,compassion, nurturance.
What's great is that they'regiven the tools of nurturance
and that extends into their, youknow, from their young years to
(15:22):
bring preteens and teens andyoung adults and adults.
So they're getting the tools tonavigate relationships and then
eventually romantic, sexualrelationships and then adult
relationships, workrelationships, etc.
Etc.
They get more complex as theyget older, but for young men and
boys, we reach a certain pointand it could be five years old,
(15:43):
it could be a bit older wherethat emotional muscle stops
being worked and it's almostlike if someone snips it with a
pair of scissors and it's like,you know, the moment where
there's there's a impression onthem or there's a moment where
they realize they have to man up.
You know, the classic exampleis like someone telling a boy to
not cry.
Stop acting like you know.
(16:05):
Use whatever homophobic, sexistterm you want to use there.
Stop acting like a blank right.
And so what we created is thisidea that being a man is tough
and strong, I need to be thesolution, not the problem.
Anything less than that isconsidered soft or weak or
feminine.
So, as men, we devalue not justanyone that is feminine, but
(16:27):
anything, and that includestraits like empathy, love,
emotional intelligence.
So that atrophy of thatemotional muscle means that we
enter our preteens and teens andagain adulthood romantic sexual
relationships, workrelationships, friendships.
We don't have that muscle,We've not been developing it, so
we don't know how to, you know,navigate these situations.
(16:50):
So what we do have is the onething that we encourage each
other to express, which is anger, which is frustration, that
that trait or that emotion,Sorry.
So you're seeing that you knowthe way that young men and then
men navigate situations isthinking well, I just need to be
dominant in this situation, Ineed to be in control, I need to
(17:11):
assert, I need to be the, thealpha male in this, this
situation, or I need to justboss my way through it.
You know, and that there arecertain circumstances where
aggressiveness will lead tosuccess in the moment, but it
leads to failure as a humanbeing, and you know, I I even
(17:32):
example that my parents wereborn in Sri Lanka and got
together through an arrangedmarriage.
They moved to England beforethey came here to Canada and
before I was born, and my fatherwas not able to cope with the
challenges there in England andthen they moved here to Canada,
was not able to cope with thechallenges of being an immigrant
(17:53):
in in England where, you know,racism was very overt and he had
trouble fitting in, he had anaccent, et cetera, and then came
to Canada and the same thing aswell over, you know, 50 years
ago, not to say it's easier nowfor immigrants to assimilate
into quote, unquote, unsubmittedinto Canadian culture.
(18:13):
But part of the challenges thathe faced was he didn't have the
emotional muscle to navigatewhat he was going through.
So the way he resolved it orsolved it was, you know, beating
up my mom.
So for him physical violence wasa way to feel some kind of
control.
Who do I have power over?
Because my idea of being a manis is being in power right.
(18:40):
Having my status is defined byhaving power over someone.
So that's, you know, the, the,the, the, the line from not
having, as I described,emotional muscle, emotional
literacy pools and ways to copeand navigate the trials of
everyday life for young men andboys is a direct line to
(19:03):
violence, as, as a means, youknow, and unfortunately that
usually means power, the peoplewe hold power over, and that
usually means the women andgirls and, again, gender diverse
people in our lives.
Right, and what we see is, youknow, misogyny is the gateway
drug into hate.
So it's not just domesticviolence, intimate personal
(19:25):
violence that then springs board.
You'll see that a lot of massshooters, a lot of people who
cause mass harm, there is aninitial one of the first acts of
harm is to a woman in theirlife, maybe their mother, maybe
a partner, a wife, and that iskind of a springboard,
unfortunately, into a deeperdive into hatred, and it could
(19:48):
be hatred into, you know, whitesupremacy movements, male
supremacy movements, and toradicalizing into other hate
movements and groups.
So it's a very important issue.
It's one that is hard for mento to face.
There's a lot of shame aroundit.
There's shame of things we'vedone or shame, shame of things
(20:12):
that we haven't done, like lookthe other way or not spoke to
our male friends.
We know we can see are a bitcontrolling or in there and when
they're with their partners,you know, and not knowing how to
handle that because you don'thave the emotional muscle to
have that conversation with ourboys right.
So it's just, it's a spider webof how this grows and expands
(20:36):
and kind of entangles intoeveryday life.
So it's as men and boys.
I think it's important for usto find the courage to have
these hard conversations andreally look in the mirror and
face hard truths about ourselves.
Jerusha Mack (20:52):
And when you were just talking about like from the
formative years, because that'swhen it's all we're being fed
of like our roles and who we areand like our relation to other
people.
And I remember in high schoolgoing to my high school teacher
and telling him that the twoboys that he'd put me to work
with on a group project thatthey weren't doing anything they
(21:13):
had decided like oh, you can doit, we'll just get a free ride
off of you doing the work, kindof thing.
So I go to tell the teacherabout it and I remember to this
day the teacher looks at me andhe just says nonchalantly like
oh you know, boys will be boys.
Jeff Perera (21:28):
And that was the end of it.
Jerusha Mack (21:29):
So I remember that feeling of feeling like
defeated, like okay, well, whatam I going to do about it?
I was upset, but the teachersaid boys will be boys.
So I guess I'm just going tohave to put up with it.
So I just think now like whatdid?
Obviously, being at a young age, it was probably like grade
nine, like you're not, I'm notin that situation yet where I
(21:50):
had learned how to be assertiveand being able to, like stand in
the face of authority and say,well, actually that's not okay.
What do you mean?
Boys will be boys.
But now I think about, likewell, what did that teach me and
what did that teach those boys?
And what did that demonstratethen and even now, where I'm
sure it still happens of what weexpect from boys and what I
(22:10):
also learned about what I shouldbe willing to put up with.
And you have tackled thisstatement of boys will be boys
and you've said, like thatactually means that boys will be
broken.
So can you share more aboutwhat you mean by that?
Jeff Perera (22:25):
Yeah, I think that when we it's not just, you know,
as individuals, young men, boysand men needing to face
conversations of who we are.
I think it's as a collectivesociety recognizing that we
collectively reinforce ideas ofmanhood and you know I describe
(22:48):
it the phrase I like to use isharmful versus helpful ideas of
manhood Because, again, it's theway we accessorize our manhood.
So the harmful ideas of manhoodare what we kind of are these
traditions that we hand down asa society.
It looks different around theworld, but there's a lot of
(23:08):
commonalities, right, and ourideas of what a man is in, say,
japan or Russia or Jamaica orBrazil or China, can look
different on the surface, butthere's a lot of similar traits.
So I think it's, you know,collectively thinking about what
we're reinforcing with youngmen and boys.
(23:30):
And again, that emotionalmuscle.
Are we encouraging to helprebuild that muscle and grow it,
or are we helping them andenabling them rather to just be
stunted in their growth?
You know, Because I think thatyou know part of our role and
responsibility as role models,as models of possibility to the
(23:53):
many young boys in our lives,because I think and as people of
any gender, it's not just thatmen, obviously it's powerful to
have a man in your life as ayoung boy, as a young man, that
it gives an example of what itlooks like.
Because I think, as guys, atany age, we're looking for
examples of what to do and whatit looks like.
(24:13):
You know what it looks like tobe, you know, someone that's of
value, and so we tend to look toharmful examples, because
there's so very few realpositive models in everyday life
that we see in pop culture andmusic and the films and shows
you watch, never mind in ouractual everyday lives, tangible
(24:34):
role models.
So all that to say that when wekind of look at the work that's
needed and rather than kind ofstep up and say, yeah, we need
to talk about this or I need tohave a conversation with this
person, or we need to thinkabout the tradition of manhood
(24:55):
that we passed down in thisschool, in this workplace, in
this community, in this place ofworship, you know we need to
rather than have thoseconversations, it's easier to
just kind of laugh it off and go, oh, what are you going to do?
You know, it is what it is, andyou know it is what it is
because we allow it to be.
Jerusha Mack (25:13):
Exactly.
Jeff Perera (25:14):
So, you know, we can think about, you know, the
boys in our lives.
Are they on a trajectory?
Is there a point of no return,you know?
And if there is a point of noreturn, we want to catch them
before they get to that point.
And the point of no return iswhere they become harmful,
become people that cause greatharm.
(25:35):
So, you know, when we kind ofsay boys will be boys, what
we're saying is boys are brokenand what are you going to do
about it?
Well, that's the question, whatare you going to do about it?
And that's where we especiallyneed to do the heavy lifting, as
men and young men, around thiswork of emotional capacity,
(25:55):
emotional literacy, emotionalagility to handle problems in
our lives, where we work, live,worship, study and hang out.
So no one is, you know, no oneis exempt from, I think, a duty
to step up in this conversation.
Jerusha Mack (26:12):
Yeah, and I like how you highlight that it's when
it becomes harmful right,because it doesn't.
Somebody doesn't suddenly turnlike 30 something years old,
whatever the age is, andsuddenly they're perpetuating
violence or they're beingviolent towards a woman.
That's behavior that hasstarted maybe from a simple
something like an attitude andit's now perpetuated into an
(26:33):
actual behavior.
A lot of people may notrecognize, but we've come across
this a lot, especially withinour education program, where we
get teachers reaching out to usabout you know, can you come in
and do a presentation or do aworkshop?
Because they're havingunhealthy behaviors and
attitudes that are happeningwith boys even as young as grade
(26:54):
seven.
So a lot of these behaviors orattitudes are in the formative
years, when you're younger.
It doesn't just suddenlymanifest when it's a older,
older man in a relationship witha young woman, for example, or
an older woman.
So that's behavior that hasbeen coming from an attitude.
(27:18):
That's where it stems from.
Jeff Perera (27:21):
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely, and I think that you
know it's having the courage toreflect on what am I doing to
contribute to that.
Jerusha Mack (27:32):
What are?
Jeff Perera (27:32):
we doing to make a difference around that?
Jerusha Mack (27:34):
Yeah, yeah, and not being dismissive about it,
like you said, I want to shiftthe conversation a little to
focus on the influence of popculture, because we've been
talking a little bit aboutinfluence as well.
So I want to start by brieflylooking at the case study I
would call it of Kanye West andKim Kardashian.
So their well publicizedbreakup, where she later moved
(27:59):
on after their separation to arelationship with Pete Davidson,
and Kanye's behavior washarassing to Kim and her new
partner.
That's how I look at it.
And during that time when shewas dating Pete, kanye released
a music video which showed himkilling Pete Davidson and you
know some people laughed it off.
(28:20):
You know, oh, it's just Kanye.
Many of his fans even defendedhis behavior, and I want to read
a tweet that someone posted onTwitter.
So someone said I think it'sridiculous to say that this is
in any way threatening to Pete.
It's just another example ofhis hyperbolic artistic
expression, which he's beendoing for decades.
Now it's about the end of hismarriage.
(28:41):
So what are your thoughts onthat situation with?
I know it's past, but on whathappened there?
Jeff Perera (28:50):
Well, I mean the, if people are interested.
There's a video I have uponline about, about Kanye West,
and you know we talk aboutmisogyny as a gateway drug into
hate.
I think Kanye is a greatexample of that.
He so I'll tell you, like youknow, I to kind of give it a bit
of context as far as creativityand his, his, the art.
(29:15):
I was a huge fan of Kanye's artas far as creating music, the
sounds that he created, and asan artist, however, I also had
issue more and more with hislyrics and the content of lyrics
and more over his behavior.
and you could see in publicdemonstrations more and more
(29:39):
that Kanye had a verycontrolling dynamic over his
then wife, kim Kardashian.
And I know people.
You know it's very dangerouswhen we kind of make assumptions
and kind of try to assume thatwe know what's going on in
anyone's life, et cetera.
At the same time, I think weall know and I kind of brought
(30:00):
up earlier, a lot of us as menknow that couple.
We were friends with that guywho, when we see them with their
partner or maybe with a womanor maybe with their wife, we
were like, ooh, that's oh man, Idon't, I don't like how he's
treating her, I don't like theway he is towards her, like he's
(30:22):
not like that with me.
So a lot of men will vouch andsay you know, he's never been,
this man's never beenproblematic with me.
But of course, because it's adifferent dynamic, right, if
you're?
a woman working with this personor in a dating situation at the
bar or whatever.
You know it's a different.
It's a different energy, adifferent experience.
(30:42):
And so, seeing you know, yeh'songoing, kanye's ongoing harmful
treatment towards Kim,controlling it, yeah, and then
again when she and him broke upand you know she tactfully
(31:04):
carefully navigated, you know,talking about his mental health,
but then things that he neededto take ownership over, as you'd
see that Kanye was not handlingit well and I think what we've
seen is this is ongoing from theloss of his mother.
I think that was very impactfulfor for his kind of decline in
(31:30):
his mental health, but also hisway of handling it, his way of
coping again not having theemotional muscle to navigate
that storm Things got worse.
This isn't.
This isn't about valuing ordevaluing people's based on
their ability to cope.
I think we all struggle fromtime to time, but there are some
(31:51):
of us who have challengesaround mental wellness that do
need support, and I think Kanyeis someone who tried to get
support.
But sometimes we get in our ownway, you know.
We block our own shot, you know, and so, seeing the way that he
handled and navigated, you knowthe breakup and in a healthy
(32:11):
situation, you know, breakupsare hard, like any breakup is
going to be hard.
Jerusha Mack (32:16):
Right.
Jeff Perera (32:17):
But I think ultimately, you know you want
the best for that person, youwant the best for yourself and,
if you can work towards a placewhere you're at peace and you
wish them well and want them tobe happy.
This is the mother of hischildren, and not that that's
why she's a value, but it's one,one dynamic.
So at the very least it's likewell, for the sake of my kids, I
(32:38):
want her to be a healthy,functioning person in the world,
living a good life, becausethat will mean a good impact on
our kids, part of our dynamic asmother and father trying to
navigate how we raise the kidsseparately.
But yeah, we didn't see thatand, sad to say, I think a lot
(32:59):
of people could relate to thatsituation, because there are a
lot of us who know of or are insituations where we're trying to
navigate the dynamic ofmaintaining a relationship for
the sake of the kids as parentswho have split up or divorced,
and that's that is challenging.
But again is an example of whatnot to do for men and boys to
(33:25):
Kanye and it's thinking aboutwhat can that look like?
And you know I get thedefensiveness.
Men and young men, that's mygirl, that's my wife, all this
stuff, I understand thepossessiveness of it.
Yeah, and that's the problem islike wait a minute, that is me
possessing this person.
(33:45):
Yeah, all of these things arenot controlling, and etc.
It's not about you know, mywife, my daughter, my, etc.
These are human beings.
They are their own people, likeyou are your own person.
But, when you're not in a place, you know you're not in a well
place.
And again, for me that meansunderstanding.
(34:09):
My value as a man is not basedon dominance over others, or who
I possess or who I own.
Jerusha Mack (34:17):
It's about having a healthy relationship with all
these things, including yourself, for as informed as yeah, so
two of the things that came upfor me was like when you were
saying earlier, like thecontrolling aspect, there are
some things that we can kind ofromanticize.
I remember, again, like yousaid, we don't know the
intricacies or the behind thescenes of their relationship and
(34:37):
what happened, but I rememberwhen Kim would say, like you
know, when she first starteddating him, like you know, he
cleared out her closet and likebrought in like all this stuff
about what she should wear andhe was very much behind the of
how she should present herselfand what she should wear, and
she's openly said this as well.
right, and I know you mightthink well, you know he's
exposing her to some, you knownew fashion and like designers
(35:00):
and things like that, but justin like our regular sphere of
the world and not the celebrityworld, like that is something
that happens in abusiverelationships where it's like I
don't want you to wear this.
You should wear this forvarious reasons, right?
And just displaying that control.
I mean, somebody can say oh,there's some like designer
clothes, but like when it's thatcontrolling aspect.
(35:21):
I feel like there is thatdifferentiating line for sure.
Jeff Perera (35:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think, as men, one of the
things we can do is, you know,gently but with intention, to
reflect on ourselves and ourbehavior, and it's hard
sometimes to take someone topoint it out.
You know, you don't see it.
Jerusha Mack (35:43):
Exactly.
Jeff Perera (35:44):
You know.
But it's like you know.
I can understand that theremight be certain ways that you
like seeing your partner appear,the ways you like their hair or
the kind of when you wear thisor whatever.
But recognizing what I loveabout this person is that they
are their own person and I wantto celebrate and acknowledge
that and support them in beingtheir own person, because their
(36:06):
happiness is my happiness, etc.
And I understand that you knowKanye and Kim.
They are brands as much as theyare people right.
Like there is their publicpersona and, let's be honest,
like there are things they do.
Like you know, Kim has areality show.
She puts her life out forpeople to consume as part of the
product of the brand Right.
(36:26):
But, she's a person as well.
So, if you know, Kanye is like,hey, I have this.
I want to project this certainkind of image for the next
upcoming album.
I want to create some publickind of talk about us.
Can we dress a certain way?
You know there's a way to kindof navigate that, but yeah.
I think it's very clear thatthis is more about him wanting
to as if she was attracted.
(36:49):
He's producing as if he was asong.
I want you to look like this,sound like this, be like this,
put this here, put that there,you know, and.
I think it's someone as aproducer who is, you know, again
, we give people so much, youknow, permission to be harmful
because we'll say, oh, he's suchan artistic, he's a visionary,
(37:09):
etc.
And I get that, that's why,creatively, he was so incredible
.
It is art, but that also meanssometimes being stubborn headed.
That means being I want it myway, and if you're producing a
song, well, that's your song,you can do what you want, but
that's not how you live a life,you know, like I can't produce
and create and control my kidsor my, my, my partner?
(37:32):
I mean, obviously there are menand young men that do and that's
leads to a destructive path.
And, unfortunately, when we seemen and young men relating to
Kanye, it's because they'reseeing that in them, they're
seeing themselves in that andthey're getting defensive.
But what's wrong with that?
Why can't he have what he wants?
It's like well, that's not,that's not called being in a
relationship.
That's, yeah, that's a tyranny.
Jerusha Mack (37:55):
Yeah, and making the video and saying, like being
dismissive towards it andsaying, oh, it's art.
I think that's one of thethings that we talk about as
well, like it's not just aboutbeing in a relationship, but
also when you break up.
There's a healthy way to breakup and it's not about
terrorizing the other person andlike harassing them or being
harmful to them in any way.
(38:16):
It's not about that you nolonger, like you said, have
ownership of them, that you knowthat's my girl or my guy or
whatever.
It is right and that goes backto with domestic violence or
abuse that when women leavetheir relationship, that's the
time that they're the most atrisk of being harmed because the
(38:38):
abuser no longer has controlover them.
So not saying that.
I'm not relating this to Kim orKanye again, I don't know the
intricacies of their stuff, butyou can see a lot of that
harmful behavior came out whenshe separated and moved on with
another guy.
So that's not something that wewant to emulate, where we think
it's okay to then send a bunchof text messages or post stuff
on social media that'sdisparaging to that person.
(38:59):
There's a way to move on from arelationship in a healthy way
as well, and it's good to callout when we're seeing non
healthy ways of that in popculture.
Jeff Perera (39:11):
Yes, and part of the problem is that we don't
have examples of that we need tohave models of what it can look
like.
I think one of the challengesis that we as a society is this
kind of tug of war we're having,where we're telling young men
and boys to be better, do better, but there are no examples of
(39:31):
how what that looks like.
The example it was used is whenwe tell men no means no.
Young men and boys and menmight hear okay, so what does
yes look like?
Do I keep pushing until I heara no?
Not understanding the conceptof what that kind of flow can
look like.
Back and forth Consent isn'tlike a key that you're trying to
(39:55):
obtain to unlock something.
You're not trying to manipulatesomeone giving up the key.
It's like it's an ongoingrelationship based on respect
and trust and vulnerability andit's not me getting vulnerable
in exchange for the key tounlock consent.
It's vulnerable because I'mvaluing that just for the sake
(40:17):
of I value you opening up and Ivalue being able to open up with
you and creating that kind ofspace of trust and growth.
And there are examples, I guess, of that in pop culture, but
it's quote unquote.
It's girly Like, it's like softlove songs or it's romantic
movies that everyday guys may ormay not be interested in
(40:37):
watching.
So there aren't examples in thecontent we consume, that in the
way we perform manhood to eachother as men in real life.
More importantly, where we needmore examples of opening up and
talking about relationships andnot like, oh yeah, you know,
(40:57):
that's the way women are.
I'm not going to use theexplicit language, but we all
know the terms that men mightsay to console other men around
relationships and stuff.
It's like, hey, it's opening upand saying hey look, I've been
there too.
Here's what I did about it.
You know, I know it's toughwhen this happens in a
relationship.
Here's what I've done around it.
Or here's what I'm doing aroundit.
(41:19):
Or I'm having that problem too.
Like, what do you think we cando, like around that?
Like you know, I know thatsounds some guys would be like I
can't have that conversationwith my male friends.
Well, that's, that's part ofthe challenge, and I think it's
saying, hey, I want to deepenour friendship.
You know, like I care about youI love you and, as a friend, I
want to be able to be someonethat we can talk about this
(41:41):
stuff with.
And that's the growth, right,it's not going to happen
overnight.
It's building that muscle, youknow, or that is being invested
in this.
Conversations matter becauseyou know, it's about me and it's
about the people in my lifethat I do love and I love, and I
think that's me and it's aboutthe people in my life that I do
(42:02):
love and care about, and notjust romantic, sexual, like any
kind of relationship, any kindof dynamic with family, loved
ones, co workers, etc.
Jerusha Mack (42:10):
Yeah.
So the second example that Iwanted to talk about and you
kind of mentioned it earlierabout alpha males and how that's
been really men flock to it.
So I wanted to chat a bit aboutandrutate.
I didn't actually know who hewas until a young man in my
family mentioned his name.
Oh my God, I don't know whothat is.
So for those of you who don'tknow, so he's a well known
(42:30):
influencer on TikTok.
He has a huge following andhe's gained significant traction
with young men, and he promotesthe idea of male supremacy and
female inferiority, and thepremise of a lot of his content
revolves around the idea thatmen and their behaviors, it
should be aggressive andderogatory and violent, and so
(42:54):
an example would be he openlyshares his views that women are
the property of men and thatwomen bear responsibility for
their attacks in rape cases.
So those things seem so likeoutlandish and outrageous, and
yet he has this large following.
So what is it about him thatseemingly has resonated so much
(43:17):
with young men and boys thathe's attained this large
following and influence?
Jeff Perera (43:22):
Yeah, no, it's such an important topic.
I think that.
Think about the era that we'rein, especially and it was
accelerated through the pandemic.
Yeah, you could think of itlike the stormy waters that
we're living in society.
It's, it's an era ofuncertainty, and it was like
that before the pandemic, but wejust all deep dived into this
(43:42):
deep uncertainty about the worldaround us.
And so in this, you know, samestorm, different boats, right?
So some of us are in thesestormy waters and we know how to
swim.
Some of us don't know how toswim.
Some of us are in a yacht or ina luxury, you know, like a
(44:02):
cruise ship.
Some of us are in a ricketyraft that we put together, right
, Emotionally, this is how we'renavigating these things.
So you can imagine, for a lotof young men and boys, an era of
uncertainty means that we're inthe water and we're struggling.
We don't have the emotionalmuscle, we don't know how to
swim.
Some of us are drowning andstruggling, so looking for solid
ground, and when you're in thewater, you're desperate like
(44:24):
anything.
What can help me and you havehere, you have online figures
like Andrew Tate.
Tate's history is he comes froma broken home where you know,
his father was a chess player,always on the road, and when he
did show up he was.
He had a very, you know, unwelltoxic relationship with his
(44:45):
wife.
Jerusha Mack (44:46):
So they moved to.
Jeff Perera (44:47):
England, like Tate and his brother and sister and
mother moved to England and youknow thinking about how Tate
navigated that lack of a fatherfigure.
It was him becoming like I needto be the man in my own life
and I need to be the alpha maleTo navigate this stuff.
(45:09):
So he learned and quicklyrealized.
You know, he was on a show inthe UK called Big Brother.
Big Brother is obviously veryfamous here in North America but
in the UK it's huge, it's ajuggernaut show and he was on
the show was kicked off when avideo surfaced of him being
violent towards a woman and.
But when you saw him on the showhe was a very meek, quiet.
(45:31):
People talked over him.
You know very nerdy guy but hewas a mixed martial arts guy.
So he was someone who's tryingto find his voice, someone who's
trying to find power, you know,and he discovered that.
You know it's I need to turn upthe volume on my performance of
masculinity, so hypermasculinity of like over the top
(45:55):
, a noxious to the point of likebeing a cartoon character,
right.
Jerusha Mack (45:58):
Yeah.
Jeff Perera (45:58):
So here are these young men and boys struggling in
the water, needing anything,and Andrew Dick, you know is,
comes across in his like luxuryyacht, right, if you will, and
he tosses them life jackets.
And the life jacket is.
It's time for men to be menagain.
You need to be alpha males, youneed to be in control.
You're weak, you're poor.
That his language right.
(46:19):
You're broke.
Ease all this stuff.
You need to be like me, likelearn to swim, let's go be like
me.
So that kind of tough love thing.
When as men we don't have theemotional muscle, we speak in a
language of tough love, likeaggressiveness, that that kind
of fits in and he feels like abit of a father figure role
model.
But the reality is, I thinkthat young men and boys, like we
(46:43):
, know that manhood for us, thisharmful idea of manhood that we
try to portray it's an act.
You need to prove To otherpeople you don't really have
these things.
You got to act it out.
So you got to pretend and prove.
So as men, we're conditioned tobe actors, like to act and
perform, and so I think thatyoung men and boys know that and
(47:06):
they recognize that and AndrewTate that he's got the he's got
game is the way that we describeit right.
They're the slang of and theyvalue that in him that they deep
down know it's an act.
But like me, like him, he's oneof us.
He was the, the meek nerdy,broken home, didn't have a good
father, but he's, he's found anact and he's weaponized his
(47:28):
masculinity and he found a trick.
And I want to do that too.
I want the truth.
I want to do that too.
I want the quick fix, I wantthe quick solution.
So, rather than learning how toswim and developing emotional
muscle, I just quickly want thisyacht and he's throwing me this
life jacket.
The life jacket is harmfulideas of manhood.
(47:49):
The reality is, as as manyyoung men and boys, we need to
learn to swim and find a way tosolid ground, and that's hard
work.
Give me the quick fix, give methe quick solution.
That's holding power over women, that's Bullying other boys to
feel powerful over them.
You know I'm stronger than you,I have more money than you, or
(48:10):
whatever, um and whoever I needto con or Fool or manipulate to
get that power versus trying tofind solid ground, you know.
And so I think, as, as I'll seefor myself and other men.
We need to be lighthouses thatare helping young men and boys
(48:32):
find their way out of the stormywaters and find solid ground,
because the easy Fix is thiskind of like these false you
know, like these again fake lifejackets of certainty that Tate
throws them, so these young guysin stormy waters will kind of
grab on to it.
And he's very accessible, he'svery coddling, you know.
(48:53):
It's like it's not you, they'reout to get you.
His language is, you know, it'sthe matrix.
That's how to get me, they'reout to get you, you know.
Versus what a good role modelshould do is say this isn't your
fault, that you're struggling,but what are you going to do
about it?
Here's what we can do.
We can, you know again, um,building our emotional muscle is
(49:15):
like getting a therapist, likea physical, like a physical
trainer for your body, atherapist or a counselor for
your emotional well-being.
Um, you go to the gym with theboys and you spot each other
physically, emotionally.
We can spot each other Talkingabout these things and not
always leaving it to the womenin our lives to have to mother
us and be our counselors and beour support systems.
(49:38):
We can do that as well, you know, and so I think those are the
kind of anecdotes to the AndrewTate's of the world.
But it's it's.
It's hard when life is unstable, when you're struggling, you
don't have the muscle to theability to swim and the man is
fear.
This, these Online spaces ofhate.
(49:59):
I think a lot of folks don'trealize how vast and how deep it
is, how much content there isout there that is hyper
misogynist, hyper sexist and allall different, you know, all
different ways of uh, men goingthe wrong way versus Finding a
healthy, helpful way forward.
Jerusha Mack (50:24):
You know, we talked about Kanye and like his
music a bit, and then withAndrew Tate and his like
influence, right, and whenyou're having these
conversations as I've tried todo with, like you know, some of
the young men that I know, Ifind that sometimes you come
across when you're talking aboutlike, you know the music lyrics
and the imagery, and the musiclyrics and the imagery, and then
you get the counterpoint oflike oh, you know, it's just art
(50:46):
, or you know, just because,like you know, I see this it
doesn't mean that I'm gonna golike, do it, like that doesn't
have an effect on me.
So it's almost like people havethis apathetic approach towards
like.
When you talk about music,lyrics or the content or the
imagery or cultural influences,like, unfortunately, andrew Tate
, they see it as like benign andlike non influential to their
(51:08):
own attitudes or behaviors.
Um, they're like well, thatdoesn't affect me, like so.
So how do you when, even whenyou talk about video games,
which we do right, and like theviolence that's in video games,
how do you get people to like,become more self-aware of like
these things as actualinfluences?
Jeff Perera (51:29):
Yeah, I think that's one of the the trickier
pieces with the conversation iswe have, we?
It's an era of immediacy, right?
It's like what I see in frontof me is that's all that matters
.
Like, and again, if I want toperform to others that I have
these things, I'm gonna look topeople who are doing that.
So a lot of young people seeonline the person who's like oh,
(51:52):
I made you know, I made amillion dollars before by the
time I hit 20, or you know, ifyou're not driving a Lambo by a
certain point or a failure, ifyou're not in your 20s, you
don't have a Lambo, you're afailure and so.
So what you're not seeing isthat there's a lot of scams, a
lot of con artistry, a lot ofmanipulation, and there are some
young boys who don't know that,but I think many of them know
(52:15):
that it's, this is the scam.
Just like I'm trying to scamother people, I'm trying to
influence other people, pretendthat I'm something I'm not.
So when we're coming along andwe're trying to say to them you
know, this language is harmful,these things Will lead you down
a path, they're like yeah,whatever, I mean, like it's just
(52:35):
, these are just jokes.
Yeah, I think the culture wehave right now, too, is one that
Is very much.
You know, there's a phrasethat's used called irony, irony
poisoning, and what we're seeingis a lot of kind of like, you
know, like the reaction toeverything around us is that
people Are in overwhelm, and Ithink young people are in
(52:59):
overwhelm again.
I talk about these stormywaters, right.
So it's like seeing what'shappening around us different
conflicts, different.
It feels like there's so manydifferent battles around us not
being able to trust leaders,feeling they can't trust
government or trust one another.
You know, one of the ways that alot of us are handling it is
just like this it's a laugh itoff, you know, and I mean that's
(53:22):
our and we do that throughoutTime is that, you know, comedy
is based on tragedy and then wekind of have to cope and we
laugh things off.
But there's laughing to kind ofsay like I get it, let's find a
way forward, and there'slaughing things off to Pretend
it's, to devalue it and to kindof, you know, say it's not real,
(53:43):
to the point where you know andI think an example, this is
another person that we didn'ttalk about influence or online,
joe Rogan, a lot of what he'sdone over the years is he's kind
of have seen examples of whitesupremacy, male supremacy, and
laugh it off.
See, it's not real.
This is just a joke, like whatare you talking about?
You know?
And what that does is it'savoiding the hard conversation.
(54:07):
So the trick is is gettingpeople to recognize here's where
it starts, here's where itleads right, where jokes and
language Can go down this road.
And so if you have people whoare fixated on Looking at right
now, the immediacy of now, andthey're not thinking about Down
(54:29):
the road, 10 years from now, 20years from now, what legacy am I
going to leave?
They're not thinking about thefuture or the planet, they're
just thinking about I just needto kind of Take care of me right
now, in this moment.
There is a lack of empathy.
There's a huge empathy deficit.
You know, yeah, there's a hugefamine of trust.
So it's the challenge is for usis to build trust and to build
(54:56):
Empathy with our audience, withthe people listening Uh in, in
the, in the case of talking to agroup of young boys, it's
getting them to be invested incaring.
You know, and it starts whatyou have to start with.
It should be enough to say I'ma woman or here's a person who
is in struggle and they're, theyneed help, they're a human
(55:18):
being, they have value, theirlife has value.
It should be enough andeveryone should stand up and go.
I agree, what can I do?
How can I help?
That's not the world we live in, especially now.
So the challenge is how do weGet young men and boys to invest
in humanity and the humanity ofothers, and I think it starts
with building their own humanity.
(55:40):
Right, because part of the thetrick of being a man today Is is
discarding your own humanity.
For these young boys thatstarts with jokes like
everything's a joke, it doesn'tmatter.
Yeah, what you're doing isdevaluing a group of people with
transphobic, racist, homophobicjokes and you're devaluing
their humanity.
What you're doing is you'reDevaluing your own humanity, you
(56:03):
are dehumanizing yourself andthat you don't care, you don't
have empathy.
You are, you know, a soullessperson, is where you moment,
when you might look at it.
So I think that helping themrecognize this conversation is
about you.
We are invested in you,building trust with them,
helping them recognize that I'minvested in your humanity as
(56:26):
much as the people I'madvocating for.
So I'm also advocating for youLike I want.
I'm not telling you do betterbecause you're not good enough,
cause as men and young men andboys, we're conditioned that the
language is that we're notenough.
I'm not enough of a man, I'mnot strong enough, smart enough,
my body isn't tough enough, Idon't have enough money, I come
from a poor family, blah, blah,blah, blah, all these different
(56:48):
things.
So when we say, be a good man,do better, be better, it falls
in that lens of you're not goodenough, you're not enough of a
man.
You need to be more of a man.
And they'll remedy it the wrongway by doubling down on hyper
masculinity, toxic masculinity,versus investing in building
their own humanity.
And that has to start with usencouraging them to build and
(57:11):
rebuild their emotional muscle,their humanity, and that is the
hardest road.
That's why it's so much easierLike hate movements right now
are making a killing.
Jerusha Mack (57:23):
You know, hate cells.
Jeff Perera (57:24):
It's a simpler, easier solution.
Blame someone else.
It's not my problem.
You know my, my the no mirrorsin my house.
It's all windows.
I look out and I point thefinger to the people.
Rather than looking in themirror and say this is about me.
What can I do for it?
Do differently.
So all that to say like, yeah,like it's.
It's such a criticalconversation and it's the hard
(57:47):
work that's ahead.
And that's that's why it's soimportant that you know like the
work that Houghton's WomenPlace and folks like you are
doing, it needs to be supportedand we need, as a community, to
invest in it, because that'swhere the change happens.
I don't know what's like yeah,duh, we get that, but no, I
think people don't reallyrealize like that's why it's so
(58:08):
critical.
You know it's hard work.
Jerusha Mack (58:10):
Yeah, I wanna.
I wanna end the conversationwith something that you've said.
So you said it's time to drawnew maps to manhood.
So I want you could you sharewith our listeners what that
means and how do they start thisredrawing?
Like, what's your final call toaction for our listeners?
Jeff Perera (58:33):
Yeah, I think that you know our ideas of manhood.
We've been talking about thisthroughout.
Yeah, it's having examples ofwhat it can look like, models of
possibility, and the reality isthat there's not one way
forward for men.
It's a multitude right.
For every man there's adifferent idea of what manhood
(58:54):
is like for them, what it lookslike, right.
But it's finding your own map,your own way forward, and to do
that is what you need is youneed a compass.
You need a compass right Tonavigate, to find your way
forward, cause manhood isn'treally something you, it's not a
place you arrive at.
You get a certificate, you know, congratulations, you're now a
(59:17):
man.
Like we have different rightsand rituals around the world,
different cultures around youngboys entering manhood, but the
reality is, like being a man isa constant, ongoing thing
throughout your life, thedifferent stages of the life
cycle.
So for me, I think it's findingyour way forward is about
having a compass and I thinkthat, as men, having an inner
(59:37):
compass towards a healthier ideaof manhood.
Part of that is it's a fourstep thing.
It's determining who you are,determining your values, what
matters, what's important, andthen two is being what you
believe I need to be the personI believe that I am right, and
the third part of that, then, isthat you show up for the
(59:59):
consequences of that.
So if I stand up and I valuewomen and girls, it's being that
in the way I carry myself, notjust what I say, but what I do
and there will be consequencesfor that and showing up for
those consequences.
And the fourth part is doingbetter than our yesterdays.
I talked about men feelingpressured to do better, be
(01:00:21):
better.
Being better is not beingbetter than everyone else.
Like as manhood, it's all aboutcompetition and conquest.
I gotta be the best man, thetoughest guy, so it's not about
being better than that guy orthis guy.
It's about doing better than myyesterdays, being better than
the person I was yesterday, andthat's the humility that will
help guide us forward.
And so, for me, all that comesdown to is being the lesson in
(01:00:45):
action.
I think a lot of us don't havethe models or the examples, so
we need to be that for ourselvesand find that in each other.
I think that's so important,and it's the hard work that will
get us there, towards change,and in striving to be an ally,
striving to be someone that is ahelper, not a fixer.
(01:01:09):
My value is not in solving orfixing the issue.
I'm not here to save women andgender diverse people.
I'm here to help.
How can I serve, how can I beof service?
Because that's strength.
So, yeah, I think it'srecognizing those things and how
we can be better teammatesreally to one another in our
(01:01:31):
everyday lives.
Jerusha Mack (01:01:33):
Thank you Really.
Wise words, jeff.
I wanna thank you for joiningus today.
This was such a greatconversation.
I know I learned a lot, and I'msure our listeners did as well.
So thank you so much.
Jeff Perera (01:01:45):
Thank you for having me.
Jerusha Mack (01:01:47):
Thanks for listening.
I hope today's episode inspiresyou to start exploring ways you
can be an ally, or that itstarts the journey of
self-reflection where you beginto examine your influences.
Maybe now you're one stepcloser to being able to
challenge harmful attitudes orbehaviors you see, or maybe even
that you do.
(01:02:08):
I encourage you to start aconversation today with someone,
or even within yourself, on howyou can foster healthier
relationships in your own lifeand in your community.
Until next time, rememberchange is possible.
Together, we can create a moreequitable and respectful world.
I'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.