September 15, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of On Boards, Dr. Keith Dorsey an executive coach, author, active board member, and expert in leadership development and corporate governance. joins hosts Joe Ayoub and Raza Shaikh
His book, The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table, provides insights and strategies for women aspiring to become board members.
Keith holds a doctorate in Organizational Change and Leadership from the University of Southern California and serves on multiple boards including Vimly Benefit Solutions, Pacific Crest Trail Association and Pepperdine University’s Graziadio Business School. He discusses his research-based concept of “optimal diversity,” which couples demographic diversity and diversity of thought.
His work has been widely published including the Harvard Business Review, MIT Sloan Management, Forbes and Fast Company.
Key takeaways
1.Keith’s life in 3 chapters
- Keith started his career in the U.S. military and the Air Force, followed by nearly 30 years working in corporate America. In 2019, he went back to school to get a doctorate in organizational change in leadership from the University of Southern California. Now, he serves as an executive advisor to lead corporate leaders to optimize boardroom practices.
2. What is optimal diversity?
- While getting his doctorate, Keith started to research the lack of gender and ethnic diversity on corporate boards.
- He discovered the concept of “optimal diversity” - the combination of observable diversity and/or demographic diversity along with diversity of thought. This idea encourages people to reflect beyond their observable traits and dive deeper into how their lived experiences and perspectives can contribute to diversity.
3. Pre-vetting: It’s about who knows you, not who you know
- Keith found through his studies that executives who serve on boards, were very often seated through their network. When it comes time to recruit another board member the question that is often asked is: “who do we know.”
- When it comes to joining a corporate board, it’s about who knows you and understands your experience and skills. In addition to giving your “autopilot intro” while networking, he encourages aspiring board members to take a few extra seconds to go beyond the details of your day-to-day job and tell them what you’re looking to do.
4. Five different “capitals”
- Keith’s book dedicates a chapter to each type of capital: human, social, cultural, director, and commitment.
- During his research, Keith found that women often take the approach of presenting themselves as exceptional executives but not as exemplary board members. He encourages people to optimize their human capital. During board interviews, exhibit the type of behavior that they would want to see in the boardroom.
Quotes
” Optimal” diversity forces people to really reflect and to think about the things that make who they beyond just their observable demographic traits, including their lived experiences.
“It’s best to look out the front windshield and be able to say what's beyond that S-curve and that sharp right curve ahead by asking thought provoking questions based on your human capital…instead of looking through the rear-view mirror and shouting your praises.”
“ Figure out who you are and what your superpowers and secret sauce actually are and then incorporate that in a way of getting your name out there so more people know you than you know”
Links
https://www.boardroomjourney.com/
The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to On Boards A deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm here with myco-host Raza Shaikh Twice a month On
Boards is the place to learn aboutone of the most critically important
aspects of any company or organization.
its board of directors or advisorswith a focus on the important issues
(00:29):
that are facing boards, companyleadership, and stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what it meansto be an effective board member, and
how to make your board one of the mostvaluable assets of your organization.
(00:50):
Before we introduce our guest,we want to thank the law firm of
Nutter McClennen Fish, who areagain sponsoring Nutter has been an
incredible partner with us in every way.
We appreciate all they'vedone to support this podcast.
Our guest today is Dr. Keith Dorsey.
Keith is a renowned executive coach,author, and expert in leadership
(01:12):
development and corporate governance.
With over 25 years of governanceexperience, Keith is passionate about
helping leaders and public officialssecure seats in the corporate boardroom.
His new book, The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure (01:27):
undefined
a Seat at the Table released on May7th, 2025 offers insights and actionable
strategies for aspiring board membersand independent directors seeking
their first or their next board seat.
(01:47):
Keith's approach to achieving optimaldiversity in corporate governance is an
extremely thoughtful path to a criticalgoal of all high-performing boards, a
diversity of skills and perspectives.
Welcome Keith, it's great to haveyou today with us on On Boards.
It's great to be here, Joe and Raza.
(02:09):
Thank you.
So, Keith, a lot of our guestshave interesting backgrounds.
I would say that yours kind oftrue to optimal diversity is a very
diverse background, so it would begreat to just spend a few minutes
about your journey to where youare now in the boardroom ecosystem.
(02:29):
Yeah.
Joe, I often tell people thatthis is my third chapter.
The first was the US military, the airForce for a number of years, and then my
second chapter was just under 30 yearsin corporate America where I worked
primarily for two organizations, twocompanies, a Fortune 1000 for almost 17
(02:50):
years, and a Fortune 500 for almost 12years, in which in both organizations
I ran very, very large sales teamsand I became what you would call a
strategic growth expert and a turnaroundspecialist throughout those years in
what I would call my second chapter.
Then the third chapter began in Januaryof 2019 where I entered what I would call
(03:19):
my portfolio career of doing a littlebit of this and a little bit of that.
I started executive advisory work.
I started serving on boards, andthen I went back to school to get my
doctorate in organizational changein leadership and all my research was
around the lack of gender and ethnicdiversity on corporate boards, corporate
board refreshment, corporate boardgovernance, and that's when I was
(03:44):
recruited by an executive search firm.
After I completed my doctorate at theUniversity of Southern California, a
global executive search firm reachedout to me and said, "Keith, with your
30 years of strategic growth experienceleading very, very large sales teams
in corporate America coupled withyour research around corporate board
(04:07):
governance, corporate board diversity,corporate board refreshment, we think you
will be excellent in executive search."And after many conversations, I actually
ended up taking a role with them as amanaging partner and their practice leader
for CEO and board services in the US.
So, this portfolio career, which wassupposed to be my semi-retirement,
(04:31):
actually has turned into something muchbigger, and I continued all my research
and studies post-doctorate and I continuedto write for various periodicals.
I have published articles inHarvard Business Review, MIT Sloan
Management, Forbes, Fast Company,Directors & Boards and others.
(04:55):
What was it that motivated you togo back and get your doctorate?
Great question there.
When I left corporate America, I leftkind of prematurely, and I planned
on entering this third chapter of myportfolio career probably in 2022, 2023.
But in 2019, offer was put in frontof me by Blackstone and my company
(05:20):
that was owned by Blackstone, andbasically was an offer I couldn't
refuse, to actually move out of thecompany and begin to do something else.
It was at that particular point that Isaid this portfolio career is the right
way to go, but I lost my identity and Ididn't realize my identity was so wrapped
(05:43):
up into being an executive until oneday it hit me, and at that particular
point, I came up with this great ideabecause I was suffering from a little
bit of imposter syndrome, and my greatidea was I'm going to apply to many
different universities and to a doctorateprogram to see if I can actually get in.
(06:06):
So, in Dorsey fashion, I appliedto seven different universities,
eight different doctoral programsjust to see if I can get in.
What I didn't really piece togetherproperly was how much I need it for
every single application and how manyreferences I needed for each application.
So, I ended up reaching out to 14to 15 different former executive
(06:32):
friends to serve as my referencefor all those applications just to
see if I can get in to boost my ego.
They didn't know that.
Now, everyone knows.
Exactly, and many of them kept reachingout to me and said, "Look, I wrote
a great reference letter for you.
I know you didn't see it, itwent directly to the university.
(06:52):
Which one are you choosing and whichones did you get into?" And I actually
ended up getting accepted at all sevenuniversities, all eight programs, and
I now have 15 accountability partnersasking me which one was I going to go to,
which my intentions were just to boostmy ego and to see if I can get accepted,
(07:12):
but with all those accountabilitypartners, I ended up choosing the
University of Southern California.
I really didn't have a strong enoughwhy to make it through such a rigorous
program, but fortunately, I had theintestinal fortitude to do it, and I
am so glad because it set me off ona completely different trajectory.
Nevertheless, I never intendedon actually getting my doctorate.
(07:35):
Amazing.
Well, amazing that you did it.
It's funny when you think about, "Oh,let's see if I can get a doctorate."
It's a lot of work to get a doctoraldegree as you obviously are well aware,
and we'll get to this in a minute,but it's what led you to the book,
which is something we'll talk aboutin a minute, but I'm going to let Raza
pick up on one of the most importantthings that we have talked about, the
(07:58):
three of us together, about boards.
And that thing, Keith, is whatyou call optimal diversity.
Talk a little bit about that research andhow all these, your prior experiences,
your research, come together.
What was the research andhow did you figure out this
concept of optimal diversity?
(08:19):
In getting my doctorate, youall know how much research is
involved in that whole process.
I started researching the lack ofgender diversity on corporate boards,
and there was a lot of research outthere and many different opinions
regarding gender diversity and howit impacted boards and different
(08:40):
things like that, and then I startedresearching the lack of ethnic diversity
on corporate boards, and there wasn'tas much research around those areas.
But I figured from a study standpointthat I would do more independent studies
and research on my own in that departmentwhen it came to ethnic diversity.
(09:03):
I ended up writing my dissertation.
The name of my dissertation was CorporateBoard Diversity: A Path to Board Service
From the Wisdom of Black Women Directors,and so I really narrowed it down and
really dove into the intersectionalityof gender diversity and ethnic diversity
(09:24):
by narrowing it down with black womendirectors and really peeling apart
their barriers and enablers and theircultural diversity and cultural capital to
navigating their executive career, theirbusiness career, their executive career
and their path to actual board service.
(09:44):
That's when I began to see the themesthat were developed that created what I
later call optimal diversity, which isthe combination of observable diversity
and/or demographic diversity coupledwith diversity of thought, and the two
(10:04):
together really ends up becoming optimaldiversity, which really applies to any
human being because optimal diversityforces people to really reflect and to
think about the things that make themthem outside of just their observable
(10:25):
demographic traits, but what weretheir lived experiences, the mental
models and different things like that.
So, many people sometimes get confusedwhenever you mention DEI or diversity
and different things like that, thatit's really about checking a box, finding
a woman, finding a younger person,finding a fill-in-the-blank type of
(10:47):
ethnic persuasion or racial preferenceor whatever, but it goes beyond that.
Many people think by just findingthat observable diversity in
someone, that you're also goingto get diversity of thought.
That may be true and oftentimesis true, but there are times
(11:10):
where that might not be true.
In an article that I wrote severalyears ago for I believe it was
Forbes at the time or it mayhave been Directors & Boards.
As a matter of fact, I gave anexample of a company and a board
that's located in the Northeast.
There were five people serving onthe board, and if you walked into
(11:31):
that boardroom, you would see froman observable standpoint, what you
would think is diversity, becausethe number of women serving on the
board, the ethnicities, the ageson the board, and you would think
that's a board filled with diversity.
But if you peeled the onion back afew more levels or layers, you may
(11:54):
uncover that they all grew up allfive in a very affluent suburban
neighborhood within the Northeast.
They all went to Ivy League schools fortheir undergraduate and graduate degrees.
They all worked for one of the bigfour consulting firms and because of
(12:14):
that, even though from a demographicand observable diversity standpoint, it
looks like you have diversity in a room,but when you peel that back, they may
not be as diverse as one would think.
That's where optimal diversity comes inbecause yes, you filled the room with the
appropriate combination of people that maylook like your stakeholders, but you peel
(12:38):
back a little bit further when you reallywere going after diversity of thought, you
may want to be that much more intentionalabout finding people, that in this
example, that may have gone to private orpublic school and may have grown up in the
South or the West and so on and so forth.
I love how you put it, the observablediversity and combined with other
(13:02):
forms of diversity, including thoughts,skills, lived experiences, and what the
company or that particular board needs,and combining that in the right way
for the job to come up with the optimaldiversity to best serve that corporation.
Yeah, and I think your exampleis really compelling and really
(13:26):
helps focus on why the termdiversity can be in a way divisive.
Because you are right, just checkingthe box is not going to give you
what you need in the boardroom.
What you need in the boardroom,as you and I and Raza have talked
about, is a diversity of thought,a diversity of perspective.
(13:47):
If all five people, no matter whatthey look like, no matter who they
are, what they look like, all went tothe same kind of schools and did the
same things, then you're missing it.
One thing that we've talked a lot aboutis how critical that diversity is in terms
of identifying risk and thinking abouthow to manage it, when to take it, when
(14:09):
to not take it, because it's probablyone of two or three, maybe the single
most important thing that a board does.
Absolutely.
And I feel it's our fiduciaryresponsibility to be able to mitigate
risk by surrounding ourselves withthat optimal diversity to, like I said,
mitigate risk, to maybe do a betterjob of disrupting ourselves while also
(14:35):
recognizing the stakeholders that wehave globally, if we're a global company.
Right.
So, one of the things that we've talkedabout about your book is the promise that
if you read this book, you know how to geton a board, so let's just cut through all
that and talk about some of the basics.
And one of the things that we talkedabout, I think, was that the overwhelming
(14:59):
majority of board seats go to peoplethrough some kind of networking, and
I think what we said is you've gotto get out there and you got to let
people know, but you added somethingmore to not about who you know and I
just wanted you to follow up on thatand talk about your advice to people
who are networking how to optimize thenetworking from a board perspective.
(15:24):
Absolutely.
And it's that word, Joe, networking.
When people hear that word, they fillin their own blank as to what does that
mean, and often people think networking issqueezing palms, kissing babies, handing
out your business card, and really justgoing through the motions, telling people
(15:45):
your 32nd elevator pitch about whatyou're doing and what you're seeking, and
at the end of the night, you said I hadanother successful night in networking.
What I uncovered from my studies isthat's not what networking truly is,
and the majority of the executives andleaders that made it from their corporate
(16:10):
role or government role to an actualboard ended up getting on those boards,
like you said, Joe, via their network.
But how that actually came to fruitionmay not be the way most aspiring
directors and directors seekingtheir next board actually realize.
(16:32):
There's this term pre-vetting in ourindustry and the professional search
people like myself and non-gov committees,they go about pre-vetting individuals
way before the individual, his orherself, actually was reached out to.
This pre-vetting happens by someonebringing that person's name up.
(16:56):
And because we all sit around asboard members, we all sit around the
board table and whenever it's timeto really consider another board
member, we often ask everyone aroundthe board table who do we know.
In asking that question, we begin to thinkabout people we've interacted with in some
(17:17):
capacity over our career, and we thinkthey may be a good fit for our board and
then we share that information with thenon-gov committee to actually begin the
vetting process or with a professionalsearch firm to begin the vetting process.
So, we all grew up with this saying,"It's not what you know, it's who you
(17:40):
know," and that has gotten us to wherewe are oftentimes in our careers so
that we don't submit a resume directlyvia applicant tracking process when we
were seeking our next job, we found thatit was better to share our resume with
someone we know and they will put theresume in front of the hiring manager.
(18:04):
And that seemed to work when it cameto getting another job in business.
But when it comes to corporateboards, it's a little different
because of the pre-vetting.
What I uncovered in the studywas, it's not what you know.
It's not who you know, it's who knows you.
(18:25):
And I'll give you a brief example thatI often share and that example is, if
you were sitting on a panel on mainstage and the audience, there are a
thousand people that's going to listento you on that panel, and if you scan
the entire audience, there are 30 peoplein the audience that you believe you
(18:49):
know, but after an hour of servingand sitting on that panel, there are
now 970 more people who know you.
They form some form of an opinionabout you, and they say, "I like
the way Joe thinks. I like the wayRaza answered that question," and
(19:13):
then they begin to think about you.
So, when one of those 970 individuals thatyou don't know and probably will never
know is sitting at a board table and isasked that question, who do you know?
What I found out from my study,oftentimes people will say, "I was just
(19:33):
at a conference and I heard this personspeak and I liked the way they think,
and non-gov committee or professionalsearch firm, I want you to pre-vet this
person. I think they could be a good fitfor us." So, it's not what you know, it's
not who you know, it's who knows you.
Yeah.
It makes perfect sense, and one ofthe things I think that you advised
(19:57):
was when you're telling people whenyou're "networking," make sure to
take that extra minute and tell themexactly what you're looking for so
that they're not guessing about it.
And it is so much easierto be on autopilot.
You know what, in our culture, whetheryou're at a cocktail party or you're
(20:19):
sitting at a round table at a meeting,or you're having lunch or dinner at
a round table, we often talk to theperson to the left of us and the
person to the right of us and directlyacross, and in our culture, the first
question they ask is, what do you do?
And that's when we go on autopilot.
(20:39):
It's just so easy in 23 secondsto tell them exactly what we do.
And when they do, they're just talkingabout their day-to-day vocation,
and we do so much more than that.
And I challenge those who are aspiringto get their first board or their next
board to add seven to eleven more secondsto their autopilot speech and say, "And
(21:07):
I serve on two nonprofit boards, andat this particular point, I am looking
for a private company board in thisindustry because of this experience
that I have, and I'm looking to payit forward." How difficult was that?
And if we don't let people know whatwe're interested in, how would they know?
(21:31):
I couldn't agree more.
And that is a great lead intoone of the reviews for your
book, which I'll just read.
"Breaking into the boardroom isn'tabout luck, it's about strategy,
preparation, and execution. Theboardroom journey provides a clear
step-by-step roadmap for women andexecutives seeking to secure and thrive
(21:54):
in board roles. So, it's the strategy."
Talk a little bit about howyou developed the strategy.
What did you find in your researchthat helped create this book?
You know, it came down to execution,and I talk about five different
capitals throughout the book.
And in fact, I dedicated a chapter toeach capital, and the capitals that we
(22:20):
typically hear about whenever we aretalking about corporate board service is
around human capital and social capital.
Human capital being your expertise,your education, your experience that
you have developed over the yearsand you bring it to the boardroom.
And social capital are all thoserelationships that you have developed over
(22:43):
time, those relationships that can helpyou get on a board and those relationships
that the board would love to tap intobecause it may help them in their M&A,
may help them in their talent management.
It may help them in many differentareas, all these relationships, finding
financial resources, so on and so forth.
What we don't talk about arethose other three capitals.
(23:05):
I call it cultural capital.
That's more around your backgroundand mental models, different things
like that, that you've used eitherinnately or in a way that you didn't
even know you were using it that helpedyou throughout your career and really
looking at your lived experiences andyour mental models that you created
(23:25):
that truly helped you, and sometimescreated barriers for you throughout
your career, but they identify those.
And then your director capital, reallyuncovering exactly what you need
to actually get on that board seat.
Where do you have gaps?
Where are your strengths?
And then lastly is the answer to yourquestion, it's the commitment capital,
(23:50):
that is the missing ingredient.
I have done studies where youreally look at two groups of
executives, had exceptional careers.
Both groups went through a reallygood board readiness program
to really learn about corporategovernance, learn about board service,
(24:11):
and they've gone through that.
Many of them have even gotten theircertification in corporate governance so
that they can be a great asset to a board.
But when you have these two groupsthat have incredible CVs and resumes
have and had an incredible careerand did their prep work from a board
(24:34):
readiness standpoint to the pointwhere they got certifications, but
one group actually got on corporateboards and the other group didn't.
What I uncovered was itcame down to execution.
It came down to truly executing whatthey learned, and that's what I call
(24:55):
commitment capital to understand, ina reverse engineer sort of way, what
your actual goal is, how to reverseengineer it and then begin to execute.
It's those that slapped their handswhen they're done with the program and
said, "I learned a lot. I took copiousnotes and let those board positions
(25:17):
start to come my direction." It'sthose that actually execute on what
they learn are the ones that truly geton a corporate board moving forward.
Keith, in applying all these fivetype of capitals, what patterns have
you seen that have been barriers, forexample, for women to serve on boards?
(25:41):
It comes down to not really understandingwhat you bring to the table.
There's this myth out there andthe myth is because you were an
exceptional executive, you are goingto be an exceptional board member.
(26:01):
In causation/correlation, it may notactually work out to be that way.
It could be true, but you might noteven make it through the interviewing
process if you don't show up properly.
So, those who have, what I call,their autopilot hat on of being an
(26:21):
unconsciously competent executivehave a hard time making it through
the interviewing process when theydidn't intentionally put on their
consciously competent governance hat.
And it's those that show up differentlyin the interviewing process and instead
(26:42):
of telling them how great of an executiveyou were, they actually show up by
exhibiting the type of behavior the boardwould want to see at a board meeting,
instead of being that person that'stalking about all the great things you've
done, they're now the person that asksthought provoking questions throughout
(27:07):
the board interview, and they demonstratethe behavior that the board will like.
And ultimately, you want the peoplethat you interview with to say,
"I would want that person sittingto the right of me or to the left
of me in our next board meeting."
But I find too many executives go onautopilot, and I use the analogy of
(27:29):
if you're driving a car and they go onautopilot and they're looking through the
rear view mirror while they're drivingand they're telling people all the great
things they've done that's behind themin the past, and when you're interviewing
for a board role, it's best to lookout the front windshield and be able to
(27:51):
say what's beyond that S-curve and thatsharp right curve ahead by asking thought
provoking questions based on your humancapital, and that's looking out the front
windshield and showing your human capitalinstead of looking through the rear
view mirror and shouting your praises.
(28:13):
So, in some ways, when people say, "What'sthe difference between having a resume
and a board bio?" And I will say a resumetells someone everything you've done.
A board bio should be onepage telling people what your
value will be to the board.
So, it's a different thought.
You're right, you're not looking back.
(28:33):
You're looking about how will I beimpactful on your board, and that
takes a little different kind ofperspective, a little different
kind of thought and definitely, thegoal is to show whoever it is that's
looking, you want me on your board.
Absolutely, and it's hard to do that.
I think it was Mark Twain that said,"I would've written you a shorter
(28:55):
letter if I had more time." It'shard to take 30 years of experience,
distill it down to one page.
So, I average probably 25 boardbios a week, and I get many of them
that have the narrowest marginsand it's nothing but letters and
(29:19):
words that fill in that one page.
It looks almost like apage that's now black.
They fit so much information on that page,and I know that person is exceptional.
I got it from the note that they wrotein their email when they sent it, and
I have the best intentions on takingseven to ten minutes later on to read
(29:43):
their board bio, but I have to set itaside until I have seven to ten minutes.
Unfortunately, here's something thatI'm not proud of, that pile of bios
that look like that have grown froma quarter-inch thick to a half-inch
thick to an inch thick and so on.
It's the bios that have a lot of whitespace, a lot of bullets and it's on
(30:09):
one page that I can glance at, andI see a few things that immediately
catch my attention, and I know it'sonly going to take me two to three
minutes to peruse it, those arethe ones that I read immediately.
And because I welcome that breakin between calls and I read it
(30:30):
immediately because I know it'sonly going to take two minutes.
It's the other ones that they tryto tell me their life story on one
page that I know will take sevento ten minutes that I set aside.
Keith, you and everyone else.
I mean, clearly the reason for theone-page board bio is precisely
what you're saying, no one reallynecessarily wants to know the history
(30:51):
of your life, but they do want toknow, "I have a board seat. Can you
fill it?" And how would you add valueto that board, that takes thought.
That takes effort.
That takes time.
That's not easy and it takesan awful lot of reflection.
Truly understand, one,what brings you joy?
Two, the value that you will bring tothe board via your secret sauce and
(31:17):
via your superpowers, and that takesan awful lot of reflection to be able
to distill 30 years down to that.
When I'm successful, it'sbecause of these reasons.
When I fell.
It's because of these reasons, andI enjoyed this and I dislike that.
And when you can succinctly tellyour story and connect the dots
(31:37):
after that much reflection, thatmakes a big, big difference.
It's extremely powerful.
The goal is to just use the bioto get a 15-minute connection,
not to tell your life story.
Keith, can I summarize the three topsecrets to getting your board seat?
Number one, who knows you?
(32:00):
Number two, let your networkknow, add seven to eleven
seconds to your autopilot intro.
Number three, know what value youwill add to a particular board,
and why would you be great at it.
Absolutely, Raza.
To be able to reframe whatnetworking means, just don't do
(32:23):
what everyone else recommends.
Do what works for you.
If you are a great writer butnot a great speaker, then write.
Because now a thousand peopleknow you, you may not know them.
If you're a great speaker and you havea story you want to tell, then speak.
And if you don't enjoy mixers, don't goto mixers because you won't show up well.
(32:50):
So, figure out who you are and what yoursuperpowers and secret sauce actually
are and then incorporate that in a wayof getting your name out there so more
people know you than you know, and thatthey not only know you, but they know
what you would like, and then craftthe way that you're going to be able
(33:13):
to demonstrate your board qualities bythe way you show your human capital.
Keith.
It's been great speaking with you today.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you.
This has been outstanding.
I appreciate it.
And thank you all for listening to OnBoards with our guest, Dr. Keith Dorsey.
(33:35):
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions, and feedback.
If you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe at
Apple Podcast, Spotify, or whereveryou get your podcast and remember
to leave us a five-star review.
(33:57):
And please tune in for thenext episode of On Boards.
Thanks.
Hello and welcome to On Boards A deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm here with myco-host Raza Shaikh Twice a month On
Boards is the place to learn aboutone of the most critically important
aspects of any company or organization.
its board of directors or advisorswith a focus on the important issues
(00:29):
that are facing boards, companyleadership, and stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what it meansto be an effective board member, and
how to make your board one of the mostvaluable assets of your organization.
(00:50):
Before we introduce our guest,we want to thank the law firm of
Nutter McClennen Fish, who areagain sponsoring Nutter has been an
incredible partner with us in every way.
We appreciate all they'vedone to support this podcast.
Our guest today is Dr. Keith Dorsey.
Keith is a renowned executive coach,author, and expert in leadership
(01:12):
development and corporate governance.
With over 25 years of governanceexperience, Keith is passionate about
helping leaders and public officialssecure seats in the corporate boardroom.
His new book, The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure (01:27):
undefined
a Seat at the Table released on May7th, 2025 offers insights and actionable
strategies for aspiring board membersand independent directors seeking
their first or their next board seat.
(01:47):
Keith's approach to achieving optimaldiversity in corporate governance is an
extremely thoughtful path to a criticalgoal of all high-performing boards, a
diversity of skills and perspectives.
Welcome Keith, it's great to haveyou today with us on On Boards.
It's great to be here, Joe and Raza.
(02:09):
Thank you.
So, Keith, a lot of our guestshave interesting backgrounds.
I would say that yours kind oftrue to optimal diversity is a very
diverse background, so it would begreat to just spend a few minutes
about your journey to where youare now in the boardroom ecosystem.
(02:29):
Yeah.
Joe, I often tell people thatthis is my third chapter.
The first was the US military, the airForce for a number of years, and then my
second chapter was just under 30 yearsin corporate America where I worked
primarily for two organizations, twocompanies, a Fortune 1000 for almost 17
(02:50):
years, and a Fortune 500 for almost 12years, in which in both organizations
I ran very, very large sales teamsand I became what you would call a
strategic growth expert and a turnaroundspecialist throughout those years in
what I would call my second chapter.
Then the third chapter began in Januaryof 2019 where I entered what I would call
(03:19):
my portfolio career of doing a littlebit of this and a little bit of that.
I started executive advisory work.
I started serving on boards, andthen I went back to school to get my
doctorate in organizational changein leadership and all my research was
around the lack of gender and ethnicdiversity on corporate boards, corporate
board refreshment, corporate boardgovernance, and that's when I was
(03:44):
recruited by an executive search firm.
After I completed my doctorate at theUniversity of Southern California, a
global executive search firm reachedout to me and said, "Keith, with your
30 years of strategic growth experienceleading very, very large sales teams
in corporate America coupled withyour research around corporate board
(04:07):
governance, corporate board diversity,corporate board refreshment, we think you
will be excellent in executive search."And after many conversations, I actually
ended up taking a role with them as amanaging partner and their practice leader
for CEO and board services in the US.
So, this portfolio career, which wassupposed to be my semi-retirement,
(04:31):
actually has turned into something muchbigger, and I continued all my research
and studies post-doctorate and I continuedto write for various periodicals.
I have published articles inHarvard Business Review, MIT Sloan
Management, Forbes, Fast Company,Directors & Boards and others.
(04:55):
What was it that motivated you togo back and get your doctorate?
Great question there.
When I left corporate America, I leftkind of prematurely, and I planned
on entering this third chapter of myportfolio career probably in 2022, 2023.
But in 2019, offer was put in frontof me by Blackstone and my company
(05:20):
that was owned by Blackstone, andbasically was an offer I couldn't
refuse, to actually move out of thecompany and begin to do something else.
It was at that particular point that Isaid this portfolio career is the right
way to go, but I lost my identity and Ididn't realize my identity was so wrapped
(05:43):
up into being an executive until oneday it hit me, and at that particular
point, I came up with this great ideabecause I was suffering from a little
bit of imposter syndrome, and my greatidea was I'm going to apply to many
different universities and to a doctorateprogram to see if I can actually get in.
(06:06):
So, in Dorsey fashion, I appliedto seven different universities,
eight different doctoral programsjust to see if I can get in.
What I didn't really piece togetherproperly was how much I need it for
every single application and how manyreferences I needed for each application.
So, I ended up reaching out to 14to 15 different former executive
(06:32):
friends to serve as my referencefor all those applications just to
see if I can get in to boost my ego.
They didn't know that.
Now, everyone knows.
Exactly, and many of them kept reachingout to me and said, "Look, I wrote
a great reference letter for you.
I know you didn't see it, itwent directly to the university.
(06:52):
Which one are you choosing and whichones did you get into?" And I actually
ended up getting accepted at all sevenuniversities, all eight programs, and
I now have 15 accountability partnersasking me which one was I going to go to,
which my intentions were just to boostmy ego and to see if I can get accepted,
(07:12):
but with all those accountabilitypartners, I ended up choosing the
University of Southern California.
I really didn't have a strong enoughwhy to make it through such a rigorous
program, but fortunately, I had theintestinal fortitude to do it, and I
am so glad because it set me off ona completely different trajectory.
Nevertheless, I never intendedon actually getting my doctorate.
(07:35):
Amazing.
Well, amazing that you did it.
It's funny when you think about, "Oh,let's see if I can get a doctorate."
It's a lot of work to get a doctoraldegree as you obviously are well aware,
and we'll get to this in a minute,but it's what led you to the book,
which is something we'll talk aboutin a minute, but I'm going to let Raza
pick up on one of the most importantthings that we have talked about, the
(07:58):
three of us together, about boards.
And that thing, Keith, is whatyou call optimal diversity.
Talk a little bit about that research andhow all these, your prior experiences,
your research, come together.
What was the research andhow did you figure out this
concept of optimal diversity?
(08:19):
In getting my doctorate, youall know how much research is
involved in that whole process.
I started researching the lack ofgender diversity on corporate boards,
and there was a lot of research outthere and many different opinions
regarding gender diversity and howit impacted boards and different
(08:40):
things like that, and then I startedresearching the lack of ethnic diversity
on corporate boards, and there wasn'tas much research around those areas.
But I figured from a study standpointthat I would do more independent studies
and research on my own in that departmentwhen it came to ethnic diversity.
(09:03):
I ended up writing my dissertation.
The name of my dissertation was CorporateBoard Diversity: A Path to Board Service
From the Wisdom of Black Women Directors,and so I really narrowed it down and
really dove into the intersectionalityof gender diversity and ethnic diversity
(09:24):
by narrowing it down with black womendirectors and really peeling apart
their barriers and enablers and theircultural diversity and cultural capital to
navigating their executive career, theirbusiness career, their executive career
and their path to actual board service.
(09:44):
That's when I began to see the themesthat were developed that created what I
later call optimal diversity, which isthe combination of observable diversity
and/or demographic diversity coupledwith diversity of thought, and the two
(10:04):
together really ends up becoming optimaldiversity, which really applies to any
human being because optimal diversityforces people to really reflect and to
think about the things that make themthem outside of just their observable
(10:25):
demographic traits, but what weretheir lived experiences, the mental
models and different things like that.
So, many people sometimes get confusedwhenever you mention DEI or diversity
and different things like that, thatit's really about checking a box, finding
a woman, finding a younger person,finding a fill-in-the-blank type of
(10:47):
ethnic persuasion or racial preferenceor whatever, but it goes beyond that.
Many people think by just findingthat observable diversity in
someone, that you're also goingto get diversity of thought.
That may be true and oftentimesis true, but there are times
(11:10):
where that might not be true.
In an article that I wrote severalyears ago for I believe it was
Forbes at the time or it mayhave been Directors & Boards.
As a matter of fact, I gave anexample of a company and a board
that's located in the Northeast.
There were five people serving onthe board, and if you walked into
(11:31):
that boardroom, you would see froman observable standpoint, what you
would think is diversity, becausethe number of women serving on the
board, the ethnicities, the ageson the board, and you would think
that's a board filled with diversity.
But if you peeled the onion back afew more levels or layers, you may
(11:54):
uncover that they all grew up allfive in a very affluent suburban
neighborhood within the Northeast.
They all went to Ivy League schools fortheir undergraduate and graduate degrees.
They all worked for one of the bigfour consulting firms and because of
(12:14):
that, even though from a demographicand observable diversity standpoint, it
looks like you have diversity in a room,but when you peel that back, they may
not be as diverse as one would think.
That's where optimal diversity comes inbecause yes, you filled the room with the
appropriate combination of people that maylook like your stakeholders, but you peel
(12:38):
back a little bit further when you reallywere going after diversity of thought, you
may want to be that much more intentionalabout finding people, that in this
example, that may have gone to private orpublic school and may have grown up in the
South or the West and so on and so forth.
I love how you put it, the observablediversity and combined with other
(13:02):
forms of diversity, including thoughts,skills, lived experiences, and what the
company or that particular board needs,and combining that in the right way
for the job to come up with the optimaldiversity to best serve that corporation.
Yeah, and I think your exampleis really compelling and really
(13:26):
helps focus on why the termdiversity can be in a way divisive.
Because you are right, just checkingthe box is not going to give you
what you need in the boardroom.
What you need in the boardroom,as you and I and Raza have talked
about, is a diversity of thought,a diversity of perspective.
(13:47):
If all five people, no matter whatthey look like, no matter who they
are, what they look like, all went tothe same kind of schools and did the
same things, then you're missing it.
One thing that we've talked a lot aboutis how critical that diversity is in terms
of identifying risk and thinking abouthow to manage it, when to take it, when
(14:09):
to not take it, because it's probablyone of two or three, maybe the single
most important thing that a board does.
Absolutely.
And I feel it's our fiduciaryresponsibility to be able to mitigate
risk by surrounding ourselves withthat optimal diversity to, like I said,
mitigate risk, to maybe do a betterjob of disrupting ourselves while also
(14:35):
recognizing the stakeholders that wehave globally, if we're a global company.
Right.
So, one of the things that we've talkedabout about your book is the promise that
if you read this book, you know how to geton a board, so let's just cut through all
that and talk about some of the basics.
And one of the things that we talkedabout, I think, was that the overwhelming
(14:59):
majority of board seats go to peoplethrough some kind of networking, and
I think what we said is you've gotto get out there and you got to let
people know, but you added somethingmore to not about who you know and I
just wanted you to follow up on thatand talk about your advice to people
who are networking how to optimize thenetworking from a board perspective.
(15:24):
Absolutely.
And it's that word, Joe, networking.
When people hear that word, they fillin their own blank as to what does that
mean, and often people think networking issqueezing palms, kissing babies, handing
out your business card, and really justgoing through the motions, telling people
(15:45):
your 32nd elevator pitch about whatyou're doing and what you're seeking, and
at the end of the night, you said I hadanother successful night in networking.
What I uncovered from my studies isthat's not what networking truly is,
and the majority of the executives andleaders that made it from their corporate
(16:10):
role or government role to an actualboard ended up getting on those boards,
like you said, Joe, via their network.
But how that actually came to fruitionmay not be the way most aspiring
directors and directors seekingtheir next board actually realize.
(16:32):
There's this term pre-vetting in ourindustry and the professional search
people like myself and non-gov committees,they go about pre-vetting individuals
way before the individual, his orherself, actually was reached out to.
This pre-vetting happens by someonebringing that person's name up.
(16:56):
And because we all sit around asboard members, we all sit around the
board table and whenever it's timeto really consider another board
member, we often ask everyone aroundthe board table who do we know.
In asking that question, we begin to thinkabout people we've interacted with in some
(17:17):
capacity over our career, and we thinkthey may be a good fit for our board and
then we share that information with thenon-gov committee to actually begin the
vetting process or with a professionalsearch firm to begin the vetting process.
So, we all grew up with this saying,"It's not what you know, it's who you
(17:40):
know," and that has gotten us to wherewe are oftentimes in our careers so
that we don't submit a resume directlyvia applicant tracking process when we
were seeking our next job, we found thatit was better to share our resume with
someone we know and they will put theresume in front of the hiring manager.
(18:04):
And that seemed to work when it cameto getting another job in business.
But when it comes to corporateboards, it's a little different
because of the pre-vetting.
What I uncovered in the studywas, it's not what you know.
It's not who you know, it's who knows you.
(18:25):
And I'll give you a brief example thatI often share and that example is, if
you were sitting on a panel on mainstage and the audience, there are a
thousand people that's going to listento you on that panel, and if you scan
the entire audience, there are 30 peoplein the audience that you believe you
(18:49):
know, but after an hour of servingand sitting on that panel, there are
now 970 more people who know you.
They form some form of an opinionabout you, and they say, "I like
the way Joe thinks. I like the wayRaza answered that question," and
(19:13):
then they begin to think about you.
So, when one of those 970 individuals thatyou don't know and probably will never
know is sitting at a board table and isasked that question, who do you know?
What I found out from my study,oftentimes people will say, "I was just
(19:33):
at a conference and I heard this personspeak and I liked the way they think,
and non-gov committee or professionalsearch firm, I want you to pre-vet this
person. I think they could be a good fitfor us." So, it's not what you know, it's
not who you know, it's who knows you.
Yeah.
It makes perfect sense, and one ofthe things I think that you advised
(19:57):
was when you're telling people whenyou're "networking," make sure to
take that extra minute and tell themexactly what you're looking for so
that they're not guessing about it.
And it is so much easierto be on autopilot.
You know what, in our culture, whetheryou're at a cocktail party or you're
(20:19):
sitting at a round table at a meeting,or you're having lunch or dinner at
a round table, we often talk to theperson to the left of us and the
person to the right of us and directlyacross, and in our culture, the first
question they ask is, what do you do?
And that's when we go on autopilot.
(20:39):
It's just so easy in 23 secondsto tell them exactly what we do.
And when they do, they're just talkingabout their day-to-day vocation,
and we do so much more than that.
And I challenge those who are aspiringto get their first board or their next
board to add seven to eleven more secondsto their autopilot speech and say, "And
(21:07):
I serve on two nonprofit boards, andat this particular point, I am looking
for a private company board in thisindustry because of this experience
that I have, and I'm looking to payit forward." How difficult was that?
And if we don't let people know whatwe're interested in, how would they know?
(21:31):
I couldn't agree more.
And that is a great lead intoone of the reviews for your
book, which I'll just read.
"Breaking into the boardroom isn'tabout luck, it's about strategy,
preparation, and execution. Theboardroom journey provides a clear
step-by-step roadmap for women andexecutives seeking to secure and thrive
(21:54):
in board roles. So, it's the strategy."
Talk a little bit about howyou developed the strategy.
What did you find in your researchthat helped create this book?
You know, it came down to execution,and I talk about five different
capitals throughout the book.
And in fact, I dedicated a chapter toeach capital, and the capitals that we
(22:20):
typically hear about whenever we aretalking about corporate board service is
around human capital and social capital.
Human capital being your expertise,your education, your experience that
you have developed over the yearsand you bring it to the boardroom.
And social capital are all thoserelationships that you have developed over
(22:43):
time, those relationships that can helpyou get on a board and those relationships
that the board would love to tap intobecause it may help them in their M&A,
may help them in their talent management.
It may help them in many differentareas, all these relationships, finding
financial resources, so on and so forth.
What we don't talk about arethose other three capitals.
(23:05):
I call it cultural capital.
That's more around your backgroundand mental models, different things
like that, that you've used eitherinnately or in a way that you didn't
even know you were using it that helpedyou throughout your career and really
looking at your lived experiences andyour mental models that you created
(23:25):
that truly helped you, and sometimescreated barriers for you throughout
your career, but they identify those.
And then your director capital, reallyuncovering exactly what you need
to actually get on that board seat.
Where do you have gaps?
Where are your strengths?
And then lastly is the answer to yourquestion, it's the commitment capital,
(23:50):
that is the missing ingredient.
I have done studies where youreally look at two groups of
executives, had exceptional careers.
Both groups went through a reallygood board readiness program
to really learn about corporategovernance, learn about board service,
(24:11):
and they've gone through that.
Many of them have even gotten theircertification in corporate governance so
that they can be a great asset to a board.
But when you have these two groupsthat have incredible CVs and resumes
have and had an incredible careerand did their prep work from a board
(24:34):
readiness standpoint to the pointwhere they got certifications, but
one group actually got on corporateboards and the other group didn't.
What I uncovered was itcame down to execution.
It came down to truly executing whatthey learned, and that's what I call
(24:55):
commitment capital to understand, ina reverse engineer sort of way, what
your actual goal is, how to reverseengineer it and then begin to execute.
It's those that slapped their handswhen they're done with the program and
said, "I learned a lot. I took copiousnotes and let those board positions
(25:17):
start to come my direction." It'sthose that actually execute on what
they learn are the ones that truly geton a corporate board moving forward.
Keith, in applying all these fivetype of capitals, what patterns have
you seen that have been barriers, forexample, for women to serve on boards?
(25:41):
It comes down to not really understandingwhat you bring to the table.
There's this myth out there andthe myth is because you were an
exceptional executive, you are goingto be an exceptional board member.
(26:01):
In causation/correlation, it may notactually work out to be that way.
It could be true, but you might noteven make it through the interviewing
process if you don't show up properly.
So, those who have, what I call,their autopilot hat on of being an
(26:21):
unconsciously competent executivehave a hard time making it through
the interviewing process when theydidn't intentionally put on their
consciously competent governance hat.
And it's those that show up differentlyin the interviewing process and instead
(26:42):
of telling them how great of an executiveyou were, they actually show up by
exhibiting the type of behavior the boardwould want to see at a board meeting,
instead of being that person that'stalking about all the great things you've
done, they're now the person that asksthought provoking questions throughout
(27:07):
the board interview, and they demonstratethe behavior that the board will like.
And ultimately, you want the peoplethat you interview with to say,
"I would want that person sittingto the right of me or to the left
of me in our next board meeting."
But I find too many executives go onautopilot, and I use the analogy of
(27:29):
if you're driving a car and they go onautopilot and they're looking through the
rear view mirror while they're drivingand they're telling people all the great
things they've done that's behind themin the past, and when you're interviewing
for a board role, it's best to lookout the front windshield and be able to
(27:51):
say what's beyond that S-curve and thatsharp right curve ahead by asking thought
provoking questions based on your humancapital, and that's looking out the front
windshield and showing your human capitalinstead of looking through the rear
view mirror and shouting your praises.
(28:13):
So, in some ways, when people say, "What'sthe difference between having a resume
and a board bio?" And I will say a resumetells someone everything you've done.
A board bio should be onepage telling people what your
value will be to the board.
So, it's a different thought.
You're right, you're not looking back.
(28:33):
You're looking about how will I beimpactful on your board, and that
takes a little different kind ofperspective, a little different
kind of thought and definitely, thegoal is to show whoever it is that's
looking, you want me on your board.
Absolutely, and it's hard to do that.
I think it was Mark Twain that said,"I would've written you a shorter
(28:55):
letter if I had more time." It'shard to take 30 years of experience,
distill it down to one page.
So, I average probably 25 boardbios a week, and I get many of them
that have the narrowest marginsand it's nothing but letters and
(29:19):
words that fill in that one page.
It looks almost like apage that's now black.
They fit so much information on that page,and I know that person is exceptional.
I got it from the note that they wrotein their email when they sent it, and
I have the best intentions on takingseven to ten minutes later on to read
(29:43):
their board bio, but I have to set itaside until I have seven to ten minutes.
Unfortunately, here's something thatI'm not proud of, that pile of bios
that look like that have grown froma quarter-inch thick to a half-inch
thick to an inch thick and so on.
It's the bios that have a lot of whitespace, a lot of bullets and it's on
(30:09):
one page that I can glance at, andI see a few things that immediately
catch my attention, and I know it'sonly going to take me two to three
minutes to peruse it, those arethe ones that I read immediately.
And because I welcome that breakin between calls and I read it
(30:30):
immediately because I know it'sonly going to take two minutes.
It's the other ones that they tryto tell me their life story on one
page that I know will take sevento ten minutes that I set aside.
Keith, you and everyone else.
I mean, clearly the reason for theone-page board bio is precisely
what you're saying, no one reallynecessarily wants to know the history
(30:51):
of your life, but they do want toknow, "I have a board seat. Can you
fill it?" And how would you add valueto that board, that takes thought.
That takes effort.
That takes time.
That's not easy and it takesan awful lot of reflection.
Truly understand, one,what brings you joy?
Two, the value that you will bring tothe board via your secret sauce and
(31:17):
via your superpowers, and that takesan awful lot of reflection to be able
to distill 30 years down to that.
When I'm successful, it'sbecause of these reasons.
When I fell.
It's because of these reasons, andI enjoyed this and I dislike that.
And when you can succinctly tellyour story and connect the dots
(31:37):
after that much reflection, thatmakes a big, big difference.
It's extremely powerful.
The goal is to just use the bioto get a 15-minute connection,
not to tell your life story.
Keith, can I summarize the three topsecrets to getting your board seat?
Number one, who knows you?
(32:00):
Number two, let your networkknow, add seven to eleven
seconds to your autopilot intro.
Number three, know what value youwill add to a particular board,
and why would you be great at it.
Absolutely, Raza.
To be able to reframe whatnetworking means, just don't do
(32:23):
what everyone else recommends.
Do what works for you.
If you are a great writer butnot a great speaker, then write.
Because now a thousand peopleknow you, you may not know them.
If you're a great speaker and you havea story you want to tell, then speak.
And if you don't enjoy mixers, don't goto mixers because you won't show up well.
(32:50):
So, figure out who you are and what yoursuperpowers and secret sauce actually
are and then incorporate that in a wayof getting your name out there so more
people know you than you know, and thatthey not only know you, but they know
what you would like, and then craftthe way that you're going to be able
(33:13):
to demonstrate your board qualities bythe way you show your human capital.
Keith.
It's been great speaking with you today.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you.
This has been outstanding.
I appreciate it.
And thank you all for listening to OnBoards with our guest, Dr. Keith Dorsey.
(33:35):
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions, and feedback.
If you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe at
Apple Podcast, Spotify, or whereveryou get your podcast and remember
to leave us a five-star review.
(33:57):
And please tune in for thenext episode of On Boards.
Thanks.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com