June 8, 2025 • 50 mins
Quality erections aren't just what Sherman Buildings creates—they're the foundation of a marketing strategy that's transformed rural construction since 1976. In this conversation with CEO Steve Kelling, we discover why authenticity might be the most powerful business tool you're not fully utilizing.
Behind those eyebrow-raising billboards and viral social media posts lies a thoughtful approach to transparency that defies construction industry norms. "If you're just a blur in the background, you don't get that opportunity to show people who you really are," Kelling explains, revealing why Sherman Buildings chooses to embrace rather than hide the everyday chaos of running a construction business. This philosophy extends beyond customer acquisition to creating a workplace where employees stay for decades rather than months.
The family-owned company doesn't rely on nepotism—instead, they've cultivated an environment where respect must be earned through competence rather than connections. "Power isn't something that can be given to anybody. It's taken," Kelling shares, offering profound insights into leadership dynamics that apply far beyond construction.
We dive deep into the evolution of post-frame buildings from simple pole barns to sophisticated barn dominiums, exploring how financing challenges initially slowed adoption before these structures became mainstream. Kelling describes building his own barn dominium in the early 2000s when the concept was still considered unusual, shedding light on how Sherman helped pioneer what has become one of rural construction's fastest-growing trends.
Whether you're fascinated by family business dynamics, construction innovations, or simply appreciate straight-talking wisdom from someone who's weathered decades of industry changes, this episode delivers powerful takeaways about building something meant to last—both physically and organizationally. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with business leaders who aren't afraid to share how they've built success from the ground up.
0:00 Introduction to Steve Kelling
0:25 Sherman's Edgy Marketing Strategy
4:20 Social Media and Business Authenticity
8:00 Family Business Dynamics
16:25 Pole Buildings and Barn Dominiums
21:40 Evolution of Materials and Techniques
32:30 Building Legacy and Opportunity
41:15 Life Outside the Family Business
47:25 Parting Knowledge and Career Advice
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode
of the ONTAP podcast we havewith us joining today local man,
myth legend, steve Kelling, ceoof Sherman Buildings in Mora,
minnesota.
Steve, thank you for joining ustoday.
Wow, what an introduction.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thank you for having me.
I have no idea what to expecttoday, but I'm sure that it's
going to be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
No doubt it'll be fun .
So the first thing that Iwanted to bring up was that
Sherman is known for their edgymarketing.
I mean, if you live inMinnesota you have seen your
quality erections billboard.
You have sayings like erect toprotect.
You have a sign on your shopoutside that says big deck
(00:44):
energy.
How did these things even getput into play?
And was there ever a pointwhere someone was like maybe we
shouldn't do that?
Was anyone nervous about how itwas going to be received?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
well, all of the other good words were used
already, so we wanted to find uhwords that weren't overplayed
already and to get to qualityerections.
That was probably a couple ofdecades of slightly different
phrases.
That kind of culminated.
Was there anything that was likethis is too risque, Like we
can't go there Every once in awhile, and there's certainly
(01:19):
been staff and family membersthroughout the years who have
not approved or currently don'tnecessarily approve, but it's
you have to get noticed forsomebody to for people to find
you and to take the time to findout.
Okay, who are these peoplereally?
What, what is their real story?
(01:40):
And if you're just a blur inthe background, you don't get
that opportunity to show peoplewho you really are Totally.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Do you ever get people that are negatively
receiving this?
Oh for sure, where they're like.
Oh, that company.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Very small minority.
If it was overwhelming angerand disapproval, we'd probably
uh, you know we might change,but uh, maybe once a month
somebody.
I'll send an email, um, and I'mwe're not sure what their
perspective is or what you knowthey're thinking directly, but
um, uh, yeah, for for every oneof those, we get at least a
(02:20):
hundred to a thousand people whoare like that.
You know, driving by yourbillboards is the highlight of
my commute every day.
That's how.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I get through life?
Oh, absolutely, I mean I thinkespecially people from Pine City
we're on 35 all the time I passbillboards every single day.
I don't even notice them, butyour guys' billboards, they just
stick out.
It's like every time you get alittle bit of a laugh and I like
how there's a couple differentversions that you get to see and
I, it's fucking genius, I loveit.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I mean, the job of marketing is to inspire, right?
So when somebody didn't realizethat they needed a pole shed,
and they see one of ourbillboards, find out who we are
and realize you know, I've beenwasting my life away, living in
the city and not being alandowner in the country where I
can get a pool shed, and itcompletely changes their lives.
I mean, we're doing our job,we're changing the world.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, one erection at a time.
One erection at a time.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Exactly With the age of social media and advertising
through that, would you stillsay that billboards are key to
getting your name out to thepeople?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, because it's a more limited resource.
Online, with TikTok orInstagram, there's an unlimited
advertising space, really forattention.
Well, on the freeway, there areonly so many billboards,
there's only so much space.
So if you can acquire abillboard or get a lease on one,
so if you can acquire abillboard or get a lease on one,
you've now got an opportunityin a limited media to share your
(03:49):
message with.
So that's why I think it isstill relevant, more relevant
than newspaper, more relevantthan just about anything else.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, because driving is never going to go away.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
People are going to like newspaper.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I have never bought a newspaper in my life and I
probably never will, just frombeing in the generation I'm in.
But I'm going to be drivingforever.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
I'm going to be listening back to this in my
hover car five years from now,and being like this didn't age
well.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
The questions that we have about.
Should we do this have to dowith, like our billboards,
trying to find all of ourdifferent billboards and take a
selfie with it, you know,because that could involve, you
know, somebody driving anopportunity?
So, that's where we draw theline.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Like we don't want anybody to get hurt on the
highway trying to win a contest.
So now, speaking of marketing,I guess you guys have moved to
more of a digital approach toyour marketing as well, and you
guys have started to have abigger presence online on social
media.
As we sit right here, you guysjust had a clip get 3.7 million
views, and now I guess myquestion for you is, in
construction in general, why doyou think that it seems to be
(05:04):
taboo that people don't putthemselves out there more?
Uh, like they're personal outthere more of like from a the
business perspective, I guess.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, I think there's this, uh, this counterintuitive
thought that if you share toomuch about who you are and how
you know what your personalformula to success is, that
somebody might steal it.
And so I think that's whatpeople try to hide who they are.
We want you to see our brand.
We want you to see, you know,the select information that we
(05:35):
have on our website.
We want you to see our productand we want to control
everything the chaos that's inthe background, that it takes to
happen to deliver the product.
The reality is reasonable.
People realize that chaos iseverywhere.
We're all living in constantchaos.
At the end of the day, it's canyou get the job done, can you
(05:57):
produce a nice product, can yoube a service provider that
people can trust and rely on,but there's always going to be
disaster in the background.
There's always going to besomething that's happening, and
so I think that a lot ofbusinesses, you know, aren't,
you know, willing to show whatis it the?
phrase you know how the sausageis made, but it's all made the
(06:19):
same.
It's all a shit show, but atthe end of the day, that's what
we, as uh owners and managersare doing is trying to control
the chaos and bring it to apoint where here it is, here's
the final product, delivered asperfectly, as pleasing to you as
we possibly can you do youthink that that viral clips like
(06:41):
something like this that'stotally unrelated to the Sherman
brand?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
There's no logo in it , there's no nothing.
Do you think that thistranslates to more business for?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
you guys.
I think that when we try to goafter things too directly and
our focus is too much to thepoint, it's sniffed out as
unauthentic and ignored.
Too salesy, too salesy, and sono, we want to show to us.
(07:12):
It's as much about showingpotential staff members, crew
members, admin who we are as itis to customers.
We all work at different placesfor different reasons.
Well, a lot of it is theenvironment, the culture we want
(07:32):
to be a great place to work at.
So if we put out a video that'sabout life working at Sherman,
that is as valuable to us as avideo that's appealing directly
to a customer and is going toproduce a sale today, that's
never going to happen.
It's a depth of exposure andknowledge and awareness of who
(07:56):
we are yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So brand awareness is , I guess, more of a priority
than it would be to like.
Here's who we are.
Buy our pole shed we'redefinitely not an impulse buy.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You don't drive by, see a billboard and go.
You're damn right, I need apole shed.
Put me on the list.
It's a very long process,especially for somebody who's
building a new home or trying toacquire land.
It can take months, it can takeyears of planning.
Yes, there's always the peoplethat are way ahead of that.
Um, yes, there's always thepeople that have been, you know,
(08:26):
that are way ahead of that.
And now we might be on theirlist to call this weekend
because they're at the stagewhere now's the time to start
getting quotes and start talkingto talking to companies.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
But, um, no, it's, it's, it's all about planting
seeds and that long, that longexposure and recognition having
a pull shed is not something youjust need, that you want to do
or typically need to do.
It's not something that someonejust makes a rash decision on,
and there's a lot of companiesthat can give them a product.
But at least with your company,they're able to see who's going
(08:56):
to be working on their project,who they're working with in the
office.
You can see, you get a vibe ofwhat's going on with the company
and just get to know yourcompany a little bit better, and
so it makes complete sense thatpeople are just more
comfortable with your company ingeneral because they just can
find out more about you insteadof just a website with pictures
(09:16):
of past projects and that'sabout it.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, it's a very scary thing to expose yourself
in any situation.
It's a very scary thing toexpose yourself in any situation
.
We all want to have thesefacades and we all want to paint
this picture that we want therest of the world to see us by.
But again, rational thinkingpeople know that that's not real
.
We are real people.
We're a real family.
We have real family issues,just like everybody else does.
(09:41):
We have real employee issues,from Mother Nature to the
government, regulations andcodes and insurance and
financing and every possiblething that everybody else is
struggling with.
Everyday life and everythingthat we do.
Yeah, that's what we have,that's who we are as a company
(10:03):
too.
But again, at the end of theday, everything that we do, yeah
, that's what we have, that'swho we are as a company too.
But again, uh, at the end ofthe day, if you're not, um, uh,
creating an environment wherethe entire team has the same
goal and they all want to worktogether, like, we have a very
long tenure, not very, not, not,not very much turnover at our
organization.
So, every time, we do somethingand we learn from it and we
make it better.
We maintain that knowledge fordecades by not having rapid
(10:29):
turnover and having to startthat process all over again.
So we're real people and youwant to come see what it's like
in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
be our guest, Watch us on social media or stop by
our office.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Mic'd up.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Mondays Walk up to my office and we'll just hang out.
You can see what I do.
Just hang out.
You can see what I do all day Imean, you can see how the
sausage is made exactly, and Imean I obviously think it's fun.
I'm sure most people get boredafter a few minutes of wow, your
job is almost as horrible asmine is, but yeah yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Well, part of that too is like the dynamic of
everyone that works there.
A lot of it is family.
So how do you guys in yourorganization like like uh, you
know, navigate that wholelandscape of there being a
unique dynamic between, like,the people that you're around
are also your family members?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
it doesn't seem to work out very well for for most
families that attempt to do it,and so I mean, I really don't
know because?
Do they all just listen to me?
And then you know, so thatreduces a lot of conflict?
Yeah, no, they, no, they allargue with me because I come up
with a thousand ideas a day and999.9 of them get rejected.
And it's total honesty, right.
(11:36):
Nobody's going to say, yeah,that's a good idea if they don't
actually think that it is.
I think it's respect, it'sholding each other accountable
and just all having the samegoals.
But we don't have personalitiesthat mimic each other either.
Every family member isdifferent, has different
(11:56):
interests within the company,different areas, departments
that they're passionate about.
So you know, that's just luck,right, that we don't have two
people that are want to be doingexactly the same thing.
So that helps a lot.
I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, you know, to anybody just
because of statistically itdoesn't.
(12:18):
it doesn't work out and forwhatever reason it works out for
us.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I've noticed that in my time spent over there that
I've always thought it was veryinteresting.
Like your kids call you Steve,you call your kids by their
first name.
There's no mom, dad, aunt,uncle, whatever.
It's everyone's first name.
Is that intentional or is thatjust outside of work?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Probably is because we typically spend more time
together at work and so we don'tuse those types of words at
work, and then does it bleedover into personal life too
Probably but not all the time.
If it's Christmas and we'retaking a lot of time off and
hanging out a lot, then I willactually hear the word dad a lot
(13:03):
.
And then it's like we go back towork after the, and then it's
like we go back to work, youknow, after the holidays, and
it's like steve okay we're backto work now, so it's it's
different hats I think it'sprobably a subconscious, just to
avoid discomfort for employeesyeah, totally have to listen to
somebody saying dad you know oruncle you know all the time yeah
(13:24):
um, and that's.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
It's not like a hard rule or anything yeah, with and
with any family dynamic in anybusiness, there's always going
to be some weird contentionaround like this person has a
better opportunity because oftheir last name or because of
who they're related to and I'venoticed that's one thing with
sherman that doesn't apply.
If you're a good worker and youdo a good job at what you do,
(13:48):
you're going to move up ahead ofsomeone else just because of
their last name.
Now, obviously this isintentional, but how have you
guys made this consciousdecision to be like?
You know, obviously we can'tpick favorites if this is going
to be a successful company.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I mean'm sure there is.
I um, I mean it would be sillyto to say that, um, that every
single family member has earnedtheir position.
I'm I'm sure that there are,you know, circumstances where
somebody got fast-tracked intoan opportunity but at the end of
the day, if they're notrespected by their uh, their
(14:23):
co-workers and by the peoplethat they're supposed to lead,
they're just going to fail.
They're just going by theirco-workers and by the people
that they're supposed to lead.
They're just going to fail,they're just going to wash out
anyway.
You know, power isn't somethingthat can be given to anybody.
It's taken, like it or not,sometimes in history very
brutally.
But power, you know, you can'tbe ordained with power, at least
(14:43):
not to last, maybe in anelection, you know, until the
next cycle.
But I mean out there in thereal world, if you want people
to follow you, take direction,not ignore you, not talk shit
behind your back.
I mean you have to earn that,regardless of what your last
name is.
You know, probably a hundredtimes in my career somebody's
(15:09):
asked for a promotion ofauthority and power.
And it's like dude if you wantit just fucking take it.
Just do it.
And the leaders that are atSherman right now are not people
that were prompted or teed upto do that.
They just they just took it andthe rest of us were like that's
fucking awesome.
Hey, everybody else see what hejust did there.
If you want that job title,just take it.
(15:31):
And if you do and nobodyfollows you, you're gone.
Yeah, it's just not going towork.
Anyways, you weren't meant forthe position.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, you can't, you can't.
If you can't prove that you cando it, then what's the special
formula for that.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I mean, yeah, you have to be knowledgeable,
obviously, but you have to givea lot of respect in order to, in
order to get it back Right.
And so the people that figureout a formula that gets people
to follow them.
I mean cult of personality.
Some people have it naturally,some people learn from mistakes
(16:06):
and cultivate it withinthemselves.
But, yeah, that is all of life,what you want, you have to take
.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
For those that don't know what is Sherman Buildings
and what do you do so post-frameconstruction.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Back in the day they were called pole barns or pole
sheds.
Uh, then for a while it wasreal, uh popularly to call them
uh post frame buildings.
Uh, I, I like barns, uh sheds.
That that's what we build.
We build sheds for your stuff,uh, in a lot, of, lot of
circumstances, your, if you havea home with an attached garage,
it's pretty full with your uhcommuter cars, uh your christmas
(16:49):
boxes, decorations all of thatyour stuff yeah, the other
things that, oh, I'm gonna getto that box someday, you know,
10 years from now, you're gonnathrow it in a fucking dumpster.
That's that's what's in yourgarage, right?
Uh, the shed is for all theother cool stuff your
four-wheeler, your boat, your rv, your camper, your motorcycle,
that you know restorationproject that you're working on.
(17:11):
That's by far the majority ofour work.
Um, a lot of, uh, barncompanies do build livestock
agricultural buildings.
We do some, but in ourparticular geography where we're
at, there's just not a ton ofthat like there is in other
areas but we do some commercial,light industrial and a lot of
(17:35):
homes.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, the barn dominiums, barn homes.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah, that's the new trend these these days.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
It is it is uh, and it's taken a long time to get
here.
So I built myself, um, my firstone for in the early 2000s, uh,
and I remember going to theappliance store and and my wife
and I are picking out, you know,refrigerator and washer and
dryer and all the stuff for thekitchen.
(18:02):
And I've known the dude formost of my life and he looks at
me and says, steve, I can'tinstall a washer and dryer on a
dirt floor.
What the fuck are you talking?
I'm going to have concrete andthen I'm gonna put, you know,
(18:22):
tile on top of that.
When was this, uh, this early2000s?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
so this is before.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It was like a common, yeah, yeah like, like I did it
because it just made sense to me.
I build sheds, I insulate themall the time, usually in in like
a workshop or a commercialenvironment.
We're putting steel on theinside uh, walls and ceiling,
but it's the same insulation,it's the same vapor barrier,
it's the same hvac systems, it'sthe same electrical.
(18:49):
It's the same kitchens, it'sthe same everything.
Just put drywall on and putcarpet or tile or velvet nice
flooring down how was that, howwas that received?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
for people like what are you?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
yeah, they thought I was crazy, um, because it had
been being done, but it was likedone for hunting shacks or you
know, just very, very rare, orit was taking an actual 100, 150
year old barn and and andbuilding it into a man cave kind
of thing, so it it wasn't superpopular.
(19:20):
And then one of my coworkersdid the same thing and then,
onesie, twosie, you know, theyjust started popping up and at
the time we're building justregular conventional homes,
basement block foundations,which you see every day.
Customers would walk in andthey would ask they would act
(19:41):
embarrassed, asking the question.
You know that was a really niceshed.
Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, do people ever livein those?
Yeah, dude, I do.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
But they'd heard of it.
But to say it out loud, youknow, they felt silly asking
about it like whether it was areal thing.
And then, as it started tobecome more popular, we were
starting to transition fromconventional home construction
to post-frame, to barn dominiums.
But the financial world wasn'tlatching onto it.
(20:15):
It was seen the same as an oldmanufactured home, like an old
trailer house.
So people weren't willing, likethese banks weren't willing to
lend money on these kind ofplaces when they first started,
and luckily, a gal who was onher way up north, driving up
highway 65, uh popped in, she'sfrom the banking world and and
just started asking questionsand and she's like, you know,
(20:38):
I'll talk to my boss, but Ithink, uh, I think we'll finance
them and that's been, you know,a 20-year relationship now
where they've they've beenwilling to treat you know that
type of construction the same asconventional construction and,
of course, now that everybody'son the bandwagon, everybody's on
the bandwagon, yeah right, sofinancing now is a non-issue, if
(20:58):
If you were to say, like put aconventional stick-built house
next to the comparable barndominium version of it, what
would be the price comparisonbetween the two?
The barn dough will be moreexpensive because in a
conventional house there's not alot to get excited about.
You've seen it all.
It's all the same as yourneighbors, it's nothing.
(21:20):
But as soon as you start thebarn dough process and you see
the possibilities, you digdeeper into your pockets and you
find more so that you can havemore.
No, I'm just kidding.
That has happened and it doeshappen.
But I mean, if you're trulytalking about apples to apples,
I mean there might be about a20% difference.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
More on the Barn Dominium side.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Savings on the Barn Do side.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Savings on the Barn.
Do side, if you were to do itcomparably.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Correct If you would take the same floor plan, same
finishes, same everything.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Really, yeah, for sure, I've always been told that
they're a lot more expensiveand that's kind of like the
general thought.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
But that was the story I told.
Yeah, once you get involved andyou see all the possibilities.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Because you can literally do anything.
There's a lot to get excitedabout.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And so, yeah, they do end up spending, you know,
typically way more than theyintended to, Because they see
the value in it right, yeah.
Oh, for this much money I canget this many more square feet,
or I can have a bigger kitchen,an extra bathroom.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, and I suppose it's just not that easy on a
stick.
Build house because you'regetting into structural
engineering.
Basically in a barn, you candesign this box however you want
.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The truth is, you can in a conventional house too,
but there's just too muchconventional thought processes
that tie people uppsychologically Like, oh, this
is how this is done, this is howthis is done.
And when you switch to a barndoe and you've been told, well,
you can do anything you want,well, that's when they believe
you.
You can do anything you want.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
You can always do anything you want.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It's just easier to accept that reality when it's a
barn doe, because there's notdecades of shit that's been
burned into people's brainsabout what their limitations are
.
No, there are no limitations Dowhatever you want, that's deep.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
That's very philosophical of you.
Now take all my money.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
How long has Sherman been in business?
For how many years?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Since 1976.
Yeah, now that's on the fineprint on the billboards.
How many years?
Since 1976.
Yeah, now that's on the fineprint on the billboards Quality
erections since 1976.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
So in your time and with your experience with the
company, how has materials andtechniques changed over time?
I can only assume things in the70s were done a little bit
different than they are now.
Yeah for sure.
Materials.
So what you see on the outside,the steel skin that covers the
walls and the roof.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
The 70s were done a little bit different than they
are now, yeah for sure, uh,materials.
So what you see on the outside,the, the steel uh skin that's
on um covers the, the walls onthe roof.
Uh yeah, back in the 70s andand well into the 80s, uh, trims
were very limited.
Uh, the first buildings, youjust, instead of having a nice
finished corner to make thetransition from roof to wall,
(23:59):
you just leave the, the roofsteel a little bit longer and
just kind of roll it over andfold it, fold it onto the wall,
you know, drive some lead nailsthrough it to hold it down.
Ridges were just, you know, kindof bent over.
You didn't, you didn'tterminate at this corner and
this corner and then put a trimpiece on.
You just kind of folded it overand kept going Right.
And then put a trim piece on.
You just kind of folded it overand kept going right.
(24:20):
Sizes, varieties, colors,textures, profile shapes were
extremely limited.
Steel links came in two-footincrements.
So if you wanted an odd-sizedbuilding you had to pay for the
next two-foot increment up.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Oh sure and recycling wasn't a big thing back then
either, so it just went into thelandfill or someplace.
Or a hole.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Dig a hole, or a chicken coop, or whatever, I'm
sure the evolution of tools, too, has made just the on-site work
night and day different.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah for sure.
So as the product became morepopular, so did all of the
materials to accomplish it gotmore sophisticated and more
available.
When you're building a shed 10or 15 feet away from a home, you
don't want them to be toocontrasting in their finished
(25:15):
material.
Herb appeal, so it's come along ways.
And tools yeah.
There's a lot of stuff outthere and some of it is
worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I think a lot of it's snake oil.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, I mean, I can cut steel with old-fashioned tin
snips faster and moreaccurately than you can with a
fancy $2,000 tool.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Hot take.
I feel like that's the thingyou have to have this new tool
like it's.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
like that's the thing you have to have this new tool,
otherwise it's not as efficientyeah, sure, I mean it replaces
knowledge and experience, uh,but if you have knowledge,
experience, yeah, you cut itwith your teeth and do it okay.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
So what's the deal?
When I'm driving down the road,I see these barns that have a
like white strip on both sideson the tin separating the side.
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
it was like a 70s uh fashion thing really.
I mean that that's literallyall it was um, skip, uh.
So if your background color,primary color, is red, uh, you
might have a white corner, yourfirst piece of steel red and
then whoa, let's do the nextpiece white, they go back to red
and terminate.
(26:22):
You know, have the same pattern, you know, on all the corners.
So yeah, it's definitely a fadthing.
That happened for a while and infact my wife and I just bought
a piece of property that had apole building on it.
It has a pole building on itand we looked at the property
several times and I didn'treally pay attention to the shed
(26:46):
that much to go look at it tosee if it was a Sherman.
And it wasn't until, I think,our third visit out to the
property that I really stoppedto look at the shed and I'm like
holy shit, this is a Sherman.
And I never considered that itwas, because it was exactly what
you're saying.
It had those accent stripes onit and we almost never did that
because we thought it was sosilly and it was going to date
(27:08):
the building so badly.
But obviously if somebodywanted it we weren't going to
say no to them, but sure enough,it's actually a Sherman.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
That's so funny.
How do you know, by the way,that it's built?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Well, you look for indications that would
disqualify it right.
So at first, the farther awayyou are right you can't tell the
difference.
But as you get closer and youstart to look at more details,
the way that the windows areframed, the way that the service
door this one happens to have asliding door just all of the
little details of construction,and if you can't see one that
disqualifies it as a Shermanmethodology, well then it's a
Sherman.
But I mean, we've had to go outpeople making false warranty
(27:55):
claims.
And you have to go out therebecause if the property changes
hands, we we still try toservice that building right.
And uh, go out there and lookat it and it's like, all right,
I know for positive because wewe have really really good
records back to 1999.
But before that, uh, you knowthey're in boxes or you know who
(28:17):
the hell knows where, wherethose?
records are so we don't have alot of good stuff to go back and
see if it is for sure.
But if we go and physicallylook at it we can see certain
details that we know we've neverdone that 10,000, 20,000
buildings.
I don't know how many it is,but not one of them ever had
that detail.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, has there ever been a scenario where you were
like, yeah, we didn't make thisand, yes, you did?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
no, we did not, and here's why yeah, yeah, yeah, um,
I mean not a lot probably I.
I remember it happening atleast two or three times, yeah,
where somebody was trying to saythat that's a sherman.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I was like, well, okay, it's not, it's not, we're
not fixing it, but we'll buildyou a new one.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, um and it's not even just.
You know just about who'sresponsible or whatever.
It's just like I.
I didn't build it because Iknow you know, some particular
detail was something or a brand,a brand of steel or a brand of
door that you just don't use.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Yeah, um, so you guys have beengoing since 1976.
Who started sherman polebuildings?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
um, my dad did um, and so our last name family name
is kelling, but my mother'sname is sherman, so so the
family decided to use that nameinstead of Kelling.
It's just for marketing, it'seasier to use.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Sherman sounds better than Kelling.
That was all it came down to.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Well, I wouldn't say it sounds better, it's just
easier to recognize.
I mean, if you hear it once ortwice it's going to start to
stick.
And honestly, back then, wheneverybody had a phone book and
they would just flip through andsee your name and your address,
we didn't really like the ideaof having our business name the
(30:10):
same as our last name.
And then anybody with you know,found a box of shells and a and
a bad attitude could find youraddress that easily.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
No, that's a that's a good point.
So this is coming from the ideathat, like I don't even want to
be in the same relativevicinity, in the directory of
the thing was there ever athought like if we sell this, we
don't want us to be thebusiness, we want the business
to be the business.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, I mean so.
Maybe it sounds like I'm beinga hypocrite here but yeah, we do
live and breathe our business.
But a lot of us live very, veryclose, live very, very close.
(31:06):
In fact, where the lumber yardsits, it is on a 20-acre piece
of property that my parentsbought and they built a house on
that property with the business, and then my older brother and
I each had homes on the sameproperty.
So we really never had a choice.
We could never get away and thenwhen the business name is the
same as your name.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
You know, not only are you physically close, but
you're easy to track down yeahbecause the mailboxes are all
the same right and it is a smallenough town, so obviously
everyone already knows locallyyeah but I could see what you're
saying.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
It was just one layer of separation.
Should we ever feel the need,hey, how about it's Christmas
and we all just chill out and wedon't have to be on our phones
or be in meetings all day todaybecause it's Christmas?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, how much of that grind mentality actually
contributes to success when itcomes to building a construction
business.
At what point is it, you know,safe or healthy to be like, hey,
let's just not work right now,because I mean, obviously it's
no secret.
Like if you want to grow, youhave to do that.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
but at what point do you stop and be like, hey, you
can't, I don't know it's tough,because everything is a slippery
slope, right, whether you'regoing falling uphill or falling
downhill, you know, there'salways momentum.
And as soon as you say, yeah,you know I think we're good, yep
, yep, we're at this size, we'reat this comfort level, let's
just try to coast.
Comfort level, let's just tryto coast.
(32:39):
You know, I'm sure that ifyou're just, you know, years
away from retirement and youdon't have any succession plans
or next generations coming up,that's where most businesses end
, and there's no such thing asan eternal business.
They all end sometime and youreach that point and it's like,
(32:59):
okay, well, what do I have tosell now?
What do I have as my retirement, the body of my life's work?
What does it amount to?
Well, if I'm going to retire intwo years, I don't have any
kids, I don't have anysuccession plan, then it's a
fire auction.
You sell the assets for theirsalvage value and the show's
over.
And so what drives us to keepgoing is, if there are kids, if
(33:26):
there are grandkids, if there'sanybody else that's ever
interested, well, we want to.
What do you want your nextgeneration to inherit?
A bunch of debt and a shit showor a good system with promise
and opportunity.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, I guess that goes into makes me think, like
you personally.
Then how do you want to beknown for future generations
after you're gone?
Do you think you want to beknown as the Sherman guy, or
what else?
What do you want to be knownfor?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I mean I'll be dead, so it doesn't really matter, it
goes one of either way.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Someone's like this is my legacy, or I don't even
get a shit.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Would that be cool if they built a statue and you
know my honor and you knowworshiped it.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, Right at the yard.
It's not like I'm going toappreciate it.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I'm going to appreciate it.
I'm going to be dead.
That's a good point.
No, I just want them to haveopportunity and, more
importantly, to know thatthere's opportunity, whether
it's with this family, businessor anywhere in life.
One of the saddest things towitness is someone who doesn't
think that they have options oropportunity, and almost
everybody does.
I'm sure there's a handful ofyou know somebody will point out
(34:42):
.
Well, this person doesn't.
But for the most part, we allhave opportunity.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
How much of that is circumstantial versus
self-inflicted?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, luck is a big factor.
I mean, I'm not arrogant enoughto think that we manifested
everything about it.
Being in the right place at theright time is certainly helpful
, but there are prerequisites.
Right Working hard is just aprerequisite.
(35:10):
You have to be willing to dothat.
You have to have a certainamount of humility and
willingness and pleasantness forpeople to help you, because
you're not going to get anywherewithout people helping you.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
And if you're just a complete asshole 24-7,.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
nobody's going to help you, so you have to have
all of those things that aresomewhat within your control to
be ready.
If you don't show up for thegame, how are you going?
Speaker 3 (35:38):
to win.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And those are all just things that are necessary
ingredients, but they don'tguarantee it right?
If I was thinking about thisthe other day, if hard work
alone was all that it took, ifhard work alone was all that it
(35:59):
took, the citizens of thirdworld countries might be the
wealthiest people on the planet,because every once in a while
you watch a video of some dudeor dudes just working their ass
off, thinking, oh my God, Icouldn't keep that up for 10
minutes, and they do it sevendays a week for a lifetime.
So don't tell me hard work isthe key to success, because
(36:21):
there are billions of peoplethat work way harder than I've
ever worked a minute in my life.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I think everyone stumbled across a good 3am
rabbit hole of people building apool in the middle of a jungle
with hand tools.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
That was my first thought a little filipino boy
with the stick carving out afull pool and it looks
incredible.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
By the end it's like, yeah, that here would be a
hundred thousand dollar piece ofarchitecture in someone's
backyard he's takingcraftsmanship and skill,
combining it with hard work inhorrible conditions with limited
resources, and buildingsomething beautiful.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
And you're going to tell me that you live in America
and there's nothing out there.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
You just yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
I got no opportunity.
Go knock on some doors orsomething.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
It's preparation meeting opportunity.
Yeah, like these also, thesepeople make let's not even
church this up like these peoplemake amazing money off of the
views that they get from thesevideos.
I actually just watched a videoabout this recently, talking
about how, like, how many tensof thousands of dollars they
make when they post a videobecause of how many views they
get now but originally, whenthey're starting out like making
(37:28):
no money oh yeah making thisfor nobody other than themselves
.
I guess I don't know if they'repaid to make this or not.
I would assume not.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Oh, in some circumstances.
But when you see a video of abrick factory where they're
hand-making, real brick.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
This is not real brick, by the way.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
They retail for like a penny a piece, right?
So how much do you think thatguy is making?
It's a whole factory or a wholeroom full of these.
You know people make handmaking these bricks.
They're getting paid far lessthan a penny a piece for them,
seven days a week uh, yeahthat's not a video that's going
viral that any of those workersare seeing a nickel from
(38:11):
probably not a lot of a lot ofcameras in that factory either
that they're pumping thesethings out.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
There's not a lot of pride in that, I would think
right, I'm really proud of thisbrick here.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
So that's, that's two different worlds.
The guy who sets up his camerain the jungle to build that pool
that you're talking about, yeah, well, that's, that's for that
purpose.
But just somebody taking uh, uh, 15 seconds, 10 or 15 seconds
in you know one of thoseenvironments where they're
making something with hard, hardlabor that doesn't have a lot
(38:42):
of value, they're not makingvases, vases, vases Very fancy
of you, vases, very fancy fortens of thousands of dollars.
They're making a brick.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Right, yeah, very true, very true.
And that's something to be saidabout just business in general
too.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
If you build a quality product, it's going to
be worth more If you're buildinga sheen shed.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
So now you take all of those prerequisites and you
apply them to something that hasvalue.
You apply all that effort tosomething that the world wants
or needs.
Effort to something that theworld wants or needs.
Right that there's a hugedifference too, then?
Oh, I'm doing this for myself,because I love art, you know
yeah well, great, maybe you knowa hundred years after you're
dead.
Tiffany is a little auction.
(39:26):
It for a million dollars, right?
Speaker 1 (39:28):
right.
Well, that was like somethingthat I found interesting about
finding out that picasso died inlike the 70s or whatever you
know.
Yeah, first off, I thought thisguy was like way older, you
know, and uh, it was rumoredthat, uh, or maybe it was Van
Gogh.
Yeah, it was Van Gogh that likebasically sold no paintings
(39:50):
while he was alive yeah, dirtpoor, his entire life died, not
being successful, and now hispaintings are worth millions.
Yeah, you know how much of thattranslates over to what you
take on building pole sheds.
Do you think that there's atimeless aspect to it?
Or, like, what's the future ofthe business when you're
designing and building some ofthese things?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
um, well, kind of like, what I was saying before
was um, I'll be dead, so itwon't matter a whole lot to me,
but before I die, I want them tohave that opportunity.
And if they squander it all and, um, change the routines, uh,
drop the commitment, uh, or tryto coast through it and lose it
(40:33):
all, well, that's on them.
Uh.
If they want to perpetuate itto the next level, for one more
generation, great.
And then it's the question ofthe next generation or the next.
I mean, nothing lasts forever.
As much as you'd like tofantasize about building
something that's going to last amillennial, great.
Right Good luck If it does.
But each generation has thatresponsibility.
(40:56):
You know themselves.
Whatever you start with alittle or a lot, um you know
it's up to that generation tofigure out how to what to do
with it.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
What do you think is harder trying to run a pole
building company or building thepole sheds themselves?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Oh, I love building sheds.
There's like there's nothinking involved.
You know to that uh, um, onceyou reach a certain point, um,
after you've been doing it, youknow 25, 30 years it's just pure
joy, you, you play music thatyou know it's not too loud
depending upon the neighborhoodthat you're at uh, and you just
(41:39):
do what you've been doing sinceyou know, before kindergarten
yeah that's the story I tell asI put in the puzzle together my
mom, because she made me go tokindergarten and all I wanted to
do is go build a shed.
How?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
how often are you jumping back in with the crew
these days?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
not very, not very often do you every?
Speaker 3 (41:56):
once in a while, you ever get the hands dirty, so
currently I reserve my tool beltfor uh volunteer work.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Mostly we support the uh, the canada county ag
society sure that puts on thefair in in mora and that's
that's where I put my tool belton.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, it's a good balance.
Know you got to get back outthere and yeah, I, I mean I
probably should.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
I could spend less time in the gym if I just wore
my tool belt in real life doingreal work every once in a while,
um for sure.
But, um, it's easy to get lostin the field, right, because you
can.
You can say you know, I'm goingto leave my phone in my truck.
Everybody's just going to haveto wait to get back to me until
the end of the day because I'mdoing, you know, I'm building a
(42:43):
shed.
I'm doing really important workright now.
It's easy to use that as ajustification for just getting
lost in the you know fun,beautiful experience of building
a shed.
And but then really, uh, areyou just neglecting you know all
of your other responsibilities?
Because when you have 80employees, uh, that's, that's
(43:06):
fun to say and to have, but youhave a responsibility to each
one of them too.
If they need something andyou're the guy that can solve a
problem, or answer a question,uh, or help move something along
, you have to be available forthem right now.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
I mean, well, going back to that same thought
process too.
Like you haven't always workedat sherman, you stepped away to
go do your own thing.
You've done multiple venturesoutside of sherman yeah, yeah
mean never too far away.
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, um so during the housing crash, um, I worked
for a friend in his uh mediacompany for uh almost two years.
Um then, uh, my wife and I anduh two of my siblings went to
Northern California and builtfitness clubs.
(43:58):
And then I really love bigtrucks, I think they're super
cool, so I started a truckingcompany it's a horrible idea and
we did over-the-road truckingand then eventually did some
work in the oil fields in NorthDakota and Texas.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
What possessed you to get out of the family business
to go do your own thing?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Well, during all of that, my kids were either too
young or the oldest was incollege and doing his own thing,
and so I didn't know what thenext generation was going to
look like, and during thehousing crash, during that
recession, I wanted to keep asmany key people in place, you
(44:43):
know, in the optimism thatsomeday you know work was going
to bounce back, so I justremoved myself and let other
people keep their positions,rather than laying people off.
Other than that, it's once thekids came back, though, or now I
have two.
Two of my our three boys arethere.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
Now it feels like I have a real purpose for why to
stay there, to stay focused ondefinitely was there an
expectation in your household towork for sherman, or was it
pretty open to do whatever youwant?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
no, no, um, and more so.
The expectation was, if you'regoing to work here, you better
bring something unique andspecial to the table.
Um, go to college or go getsome other life experience that
you can, uh, bring back, and notbe like the uh, uh, the guys
that ride around in the buggies,the Amish.
(45:37):
You know if if we're not diverseenough, if we don't have enough
experience outside our littlebubble, then how do we gain from
you know uh, other knowledgeand other experience?
So yeah, go out, figure outsomething new, something unique
to bring back.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Was there any part of you when your own children
started working there, with youhaving the position that you are
at Sherman?
Were you worried at all thatthey would almost feel like?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Assassinated me to take over.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
More of where.
Like you know oh, my dad's thebig wig around here Were you
worried that that was going tobe an attitude that was brought
into the workplace?
Speaker 2 (46:15):
That's necessary.
It's absolutely necessary, uh,because if they were, uh, you
know, too arrogant or cockyabout it, um, you know the the
world of of safe places inschool.
You know where you can't bully,that that doesn't, that doesn't
exist outside of schoolproperty.
(46:35):
So I talked about that beforetoo.
In earning respect, and if youwant respect, you have to give
it first of all, and then youhave to produce something or
demonstrate something to earn itback.
So, yeah, if they walked in tooarrogant or thinking this is my
(46:55):
dad's place, Good luck withthat, because, if anything,
they're probably treated moreharshly than any other
Speaker 3 (47:03):
new guy because of that.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Because it's obvious.
I mean there's a target ontheir back, and so when they
fuck up, everybody knows aboutit.
And I fuck up constantly, mykids fuck up constantly, we all
do, and it doesn't matter whoyou are.
You need to be called out forit so that you can learn and try
better next time.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
So, actually, before we end this thing, I wanted to
show you this photo thatactually that we found, and we
were told that you were actuallyin a rock band in high school
and we found this image of youwhile you were in this band.
How come you didn't pursue thisdream of being a rock star?
Speaker 2 (47:49):
there's early there's one reason, and one reason only
, for singing and playing theguitar, and it's to get girls.
And uh, I was lucky enough toget one um at a at a young age.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Met my wife when we were in high school was it the
band that helped you make it 100?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
she will deny it she claimed she never saw any of our
uh, any of our concerts, neverwent to any of our shows, but
but I know for a fact she wasthere.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
She got ratted out.
She was a hardcore fan.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
So, yeah, it worked, it did its job, and I haven't
played guitar since you met yourwife.
Retired the pick.
Now if she smartens up andleaves me someday, guess who's
gonna learn how to play guitaragain and has two thumbs this
(48:43):
guy that's funny.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Well, before we end this thing, is there any piece
of knowledge that you could dropon someone that has a dream of
owning a construction businessthemselves?
Speaker 2 (48:56):
yeah, acceptance that you don't know anything and I
really I don't know anything,but there's this thing called
books or things called books.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Read them, study them .
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Because what you and I can discuss and discover here
today, or in a lifetime ofhanging out, is nothing compared
to what's out there.
Now we have the convenience ofYouTube and you know all of the
internet, but just learn, justhold your opinions lightly with
(49:30):
your fingertips so they can beeasily challenged and replaced
with better opinions and betterideas, Because in one lifetime
you can never learn everythingthat can help you, so read learn
.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Boom, that's all you need to do.
Youtube it if you have to, ifyou can't read.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
With ChatGPT.
That's almost a little tooclose to home.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Everyone's going to stop learning how to read and
even quit learning how to looksomething up on Google and just
start typing it into ChatGP.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, but when written language first came out,
that was the big fear was thatpeople were going to forget how
to tell stories.
Right, because you don't needto tell a story anymore, it's
just written.
So every generation oftechnology, something is
potentially lost, but thesociety is still perpetuating,
(50:24):
we're still growing and we'regoing to be dead, so we don't
even care about it.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Let them figure it out.
All right, steve?
Thank you so much for coming on.
We will see you next time.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
All right, sounds great, thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode
of the ONTAP podcast we havewith us joining today local man,
myth legend, steve Kelling, ceoof Sherman Buildings in Mora,
minnesota.
Steve, thank you for joining ustoday.
Wow, what an introduction.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thank you for having me.
I have no idea what to expecttoday, but I'm sure that it's
going to be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
No doubt it'll be fun .
So the first thing that Iwanted to bring up was that
Sherman is known for their edgymarketing.
I mean, if you live inMinnesota you have seen your
quality erections billboard.
You have sayings like erect toprotect.
You have a sign on your shopoutside that says big deck
(00:44):
energy.
How did these things even getput into play?
And was there ever a pointwhere someone was like maybe we
shouldn't do that?
Was anyone nervous about how itwas going to be received?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
well, all of the other good words were used
already, so we wanted to find uhwords that weren't overplayed
already and to get to qualityerections.
That was probably a couple ofdecades of slightly different
phrases.
That kind of culminated.
Was there anything that was likethis is too risque, Like we
can't go there Every once in awhile, and there's certainly
(01:19):
been staff and family membersthroughout the years who have
not approved or currently don'tnecessarily approve, but it's
you have to get noticed forsomebody to for people to find
you and to take the time to findout.
Okay, who are these peoplereally?
What, what is their real story?
(01:40):
And if you're just a blur inthe background, you don't get
that opportunity to show peoplewho you really are Totally.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Do you ever get people that are negatively
receiving this?
Oh for sure, where they're like.
Oh, that company.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Very small minority.
If it was overwhelming angerand disapproval, we'd probably
uh, you know we might change,but uh, maybe once a month
somebody.
I'll send an email, um, and I'mwe're not sure what their
perspective is or what you knowthey're thinking directly, but
um, uh, yeah, for for every oneof those, we get at least a
(02:20):
hundred to a thousand people whoare like that.
You know, driving by yourbillboards is the highlight of
my commute every day.
That's how.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I get through life?
Oh, absolutely, I mean I thinkespecially people from Pine City
we're on 35 all the time I passbillboards every single day.
I don't even notice them, butyour guys' billboards, they just
stick out.
It's like every time you get alittle bit of a laugh and I like
how there's a couple differentversions that you get to see and
I, it's fucking genius, I loveit.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I mean, the job of marketing is to inspire, right?
So when somebody didn't realizethat they needed a pole shed,
and they see one of ourbillboards, find out who we are
and realize you know, I've beenwasting my life away, living in
the city and not being alandowner in the country where I
can get a pool shed, and itcompletely changes their lives.
I mean, we're doing our job,we're changing the world.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, one erection at a time.
One erection at a time.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Exactly With the age of social media and advertising
through that, would you stillsay that billboards are key to
getting your name out to thepeople?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, because it's a more limited resource.
Online, with TikTok orInstagram, there's an unlimited
advertising space, really forattention.
Well, on the freeway, there areonly so many billboards,
there's only so much space.
So if you can acquire abillboard or get a lease on one,
so if you can acquire abillboard or get a lease on one,
you've now got an opportunityin a limited media to share your
(03:49):
message with.
So that's why I think it isstill relevant, more relevant
than newspaper, more relevantthan just about anything else.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, because driving is never going to go away.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
People are going to like newspaper.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I have never bought a newspaper in my life and I
probably never will, just frombeing in the generation I'm in.
But I'm going to be drivingforever.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
I'm going to be listening back to this in my
hover car five years from now,and being like this didn't age
well.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
The questions that we have about.
Should we do this have to dowith, like our billboards,
trying to find all of ourdifferent billboards and take a
selfie with it, you know,because that could involve, you
know, somebody driving anopportunity?
So, that's where we draw theline.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Like we don't want anybody to get hurt on the
highway trying to win a contest.
So now, speaking of marketing,I guess you guys have moved to
more of a digital approach toyour marketing as well, and you
guys have started to have abigger presence online on social
media.
As we sit right here, you guysjust had a clip get 3.7 million
views, and now I guess myquestion for you is, in
construction in general, why doyou think that it seems to be
(05:04):
taboo that people don't putthemselves out there more?
Uh, like they're personal outthere more of like from a the
business perspective, I guess.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, I think there's this, uh, this counterintuitive
thought that if you share toomuch about who you are and how
you know what your personalformula to success is, that
somebody might steal it.
And so I think that's whatpeople try to hide who they are.
We want you to see our brand.
We want you to see, you know,the select information that we
(05:35):
have on our website.
We want you to see our productand we want to control
everything the chaos that's inthe background, that it takes to
happen to deliver the product.
The reality is reasonable.
People realize that chaos iseverywhere.
We're all living in constantchaos.
At the end of the day, it's canyou get the job done, can you
(05:57):
produce a nice product, can yoube a service provider that
people can trust and rely on,but there's always going to be
disaster in the background.
There's always going to besomething that's happening, and
so I think that a lot ofbusinesses, you know, aren't,
you know, willing to show whatis it the?
phrase you know how the sausageis made, but it's all made the
(06:19):
same.
It's all a shit show, but atthe end of the day, that's what
we, as uh owners and managersare doing is trying to control
the chaos and bring it to apoint where here it is, here's
the final product, delivered asperfectly, as pleasing to you as
we possibly can you do youthink that that viral clips like
(06:41):
something like this that'stotally unrelated to the Sherman
brand?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
There's no logo in it , there's no nothing.
Do you think that thistranslates to more business for?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
you guys.
I think that when we try to goafter things too directly and
our focus is too much to thepoint, it's sniffed out as
unauthentic and ignored.
Too salesy, too salesy, and sono, we want to show to us.
(07:12):
It's as much about showingpotential staff members, crew
members, admin who we are as itis to customers.
We all work at different placesfor different reasons.
Well, a lot of it is theenvironment, the culture we want
(07:32):
to be a great place to work at.
So if we put out a video that'sabout life working at Sherman,
that is as valuable to us as avideo that's appealing directly
to a customer and is going toproduce a sale today, that's
never going to happen.
It's a depth of exposure andknowledge and awareness of who
(07:56):
we are yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So brand awareness is , I guess, more of a priority
than it would be to like.
Here's who we are.
Buy our pole shed we'redefinitely not an impulse buy.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You don't drive by, see a billboard and go.
You're damn right, I need apole shed.
Put me on the list.
It's a very long process,especially for somebody who's
building a new home or trying toacquire land.
It can take months, it can takeyears of planning.
Yes, there's always the peoplethat are way ahead of that.
Um, yes, there's always thepeople that have been, you know,
(08:26):
that are way ahead of that.
And now we might be on theirlist to call this weekend
because they're at the stagewhere now's the time to start
getting quotes and start talkingto talking to companies.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
But, um, no, it's, it's, it's all about planting
seeds and that long, that longexposure and recognition having
a pull shed is not something youjust need, that you want to do
or typically need to do.
It's not something that someonejust makes a rash decision on,
and there's a lot of companiesthat can give them a product.
But at least with your company,they're able to see who's going
(08:56):
to be working on their project,who they're working with in the
office.
You can see, you get a vibe ofwhat's going on with the company
and just get to know yourcompany a little bit better, and
so it makes complete sense thatpeople are just more
comfortable with your company ingeneral because they just can
find out more about you insteadof just a website with pictures
(09:16):
of past projects and that'sabout it.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, it's a very scary thing to expose yourself
in any situation.
It's a very scary thing toexpose yourself in any situation
.
We all want to have thesefacades and we all want to paint
this picture that we want therest of the world to see us by.
But again, rational thinkingpeople know that that's not real
.
We are real people.
We're a real family.
We have real family issues,just like everybody else does.
(09:41):
We have real employee issues,from Mother Nature to the
government, regulations andcodes and insurance and
financing and every possiblething that everybody else is
struggling with.
Everyday life and everythingthat we do.
Yeah, that's what we have,that's who we are as a company
(10:03):
too.
But again, at the end of theday, everything that we do, yeah
, that's what we have, that'swho we are as a company too.
But again, uh, at the end ofthe day, if you're not, um, uh,
creating an environment wherethe entire team has the same
goal and they all want to worktogether, like, we have a very
long tenure, not very, not, not,not very much turnover at our
organization.
So, every time, we do somethingand we learn from it and we
make it better.
We maintain that knowledge fordecades by not having rapid
(10:29):
turnover and having to startthat process all over again.
So we're real people and youwant to come see what it's like
in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
be our guest, Watch us on social media or stop by
our office.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Mic'd up.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Mondays Walk up to my office and we'll just hang out.
You can see what I do.
Just hang out.
You can see what I do all day Imean, you can see how the
sausage is made exactly, and Imean I obviously think it's fun.
I'm sure most people get boredafter a few minutes of wow, your
job is almost as horrible asmine is, but yeah yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Well, part of that too is like the dynamic of
everyone that works there.
A lot of it is family.
So how do you guys in yourorganization like like uh, you
know, navigate that wholelandscape of there being a
unique dynamic between, like,the people that you're around
are also your family members?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
it doesn't seem to work out very well for for most
families that attempt to do it,and so I mean, I really don't
know because?
Do they all just listen to me?
And then you know, so thatreduces a lot of conflict?
Yeah, no, they, no, they allargue with me because I come up
with a thousand ideas a day and999.9 of them get rejected.
And it's total honesty, right.
(11:36):
Nobody's going to say, yeah,that's a good idea if they don't
actually think that it is.
I think it's respect, it'sholding each other accountable
and just all having the samegoals.
But we don't have personalitiesthat mimic each other either.
Every family member isdifferent, has different
(11:56):
interests within the company,different areas, departments
that they're passionate about.
So you know, that's just luck,right, that we don't have two
people that are want to be doingexactly the same thing.
So that helps a lot.
I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, you know, to anybody just
because of statistically itdoesn't.
(12:18):
it doesn't work out and forwhatever reason it works out for
us.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I've noticed that in my time spent over there that
I've always thought it was veryinteresting.
Like your kids call you Steve,you call your kids by their
first name.
There's no mom, dad, aunt,uncle, whatever.
It's everyone's first name.
Is that intentional or is thatjust outside of work?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Probably is because we typically spend more time
together at work and so we don'tuse those types of words at
work, and then does it bleedover into personal life too
Probably but not all the time.
If it's Christmas and we'retaking a lot of time off and
hanging out a lot, then I willactually hear the word dad a lot
(13:03):
.
And then it's like we go back towork after the, and then it's
like we go back to work, youknow, after the holidays, and
it's like steve okay we're backto work now, so it's it's
different hats I think it'sprobably a subconscious, just to
avoid discomfort for employeesyeah, totally have to listen to
somebody saying dad you know oruncle you know all the time yeah
(13:24):
um, and that's.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
It's not like a hard rule or anything yeah, with and
with any family dynamic in anybusiness, there's always going
to be some weird contentionaround like this person has a
better opportunity because oftheir last name or because of
who they're related to and I'venoticed that's one thing with
sherman that doesn't apply.
If you're a good worker and youdo a good job at what you do,
(13:48):
you're going to move up ahead ofsomeone else just because of
their last name.
Now, obviously this isintentional, but how have you
guys made this consciousdecision to be like?
You know, obviously we can'tpick favorites if this is going
to be a successful company.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I mean'm sure there is.
I um, I mean it would be sillyto to say that, um, that every
single family member has earnedtheir position.
I'm I'm sure that there are,you know, circumstances where
somebody got fast-tracked intoan opportunity but at the end of
the day, if they're notrespected by their uh, their
(14:23):
co-workers and by the peoplethat they're supposed to lead,
they're just going to fail.
They're just going by theirco-workers and by the people
that they're supposed to lead.
They're just going to fail,they're just going to wash out
anyway.
You know, power isn't somethingthat can be given to anybody.
It's taken, like it or not,sometimes in history very
brutally.
But power, you know, you can'tbe ordained with power, at least
(14:43):
not to last, maybe in anelection, you know, until the
next cycle.
But I mean out there in thereal world, if you want people
to follow you, take direction,not ignore you, not talk shit
behind your back.
I mean you have to earn that,regardless of what your last
name is.
You know, probably a hundredtimes in my career somebody's
(15:09):
asked for a promotion ofauthority and power.
And it's like dude if you wantit just fucking take it.
Just do it.
And the leaders that are atSherman right now are not people
that were prompted or teed upto do that.
They just they just took it andthe rest of us were like that's
fucking awesome.
Hey, everybody else see what hejust did there.
If you want that job title,just take it.
(15:31):
And if you do and nobodyfollows you, you're gone.
Yeah, it's just not going towork.
Anyways, you weren't meant forthe position.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, you can't, you can't.
If you can't prove that you cando it, then what's the special
formula for that.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I mean, yeah, you have to be knowledgeable,
obviously, but you have to givea lot of respect in order to, in
order to get it back Right.
And so the people that figureout a formula that gets people
to follow them.
I mean cult of personality.
Some people have it naturally,some people learn from mistakes
(16:06):
and cultivate it withinthemselves.
But, yeah, that is all of life,what you want, you have to take
.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
For those that don't know what is Sherman Buildings
and what do you do so post-frameconstruction.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Back in the day they were called pole barns or pole
sheds.
Uh, then for a while it wasreal, uh popularly to call them
uh post frame buildings.
Uh, I, I like barns, uh sheds.
That that's what we build.
We build sheds for your stuff,uh, in a lot, of, lot of
circumstances, your, if you havea home with an attached garage,
it's pretty full with your uhcommuter cars, uh your christmas
(16:49):
boxes, decorations all of thatyour stuff yeah, the other
things that, oh, I'm gonna getto that box someday, you know,
10 years from now, you're gonnathrow it in a fucking dumpster.
That's that's what's in yourgarage, right?
Uh, the shed is for all theother cool stuff your
four-wheeler, your boat, your rv, your camper, your motorcycle,
that you know restorationproject that you're working on.
(17:11):
That's by far the majority ofour work.
Um, a lot of, uh, barncompanies do build livestock
agricultural buildings.
We do some, but in ourparticular geography where we're
at, there's just not a ton ofthat like there is in other
areas but we do some commercial,light industrial and a lot of
(17:35):
homes.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, the barn dominiums, barn homes.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah, that's the new trend these these days.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
It is it is uh, and it's taken a long time to get
here.
So I built myself, um, my firstone for in the early 2000s, uh,
and I remember going to theappliance store and and my wife
and I are picking out, you know,refrigerator and washer and
dryer and all the stuff for thekitchen.
(18:02):
And I've known the dude formost of my life and he looks at
me and says, steve, I can'tinstall a washer and dryer on a
dirt floor.
What the fuck are you talking?
I'm going to have concrete andthen I'm gonna put, you know,
(18:22):
tile on top of that.
When was this, uh, this early2000s?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
so this is before.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It was like a common, yeah, yeah like, like I did it
because it just made sense to me.
I build sheds, I insulate themall the time, usually in in like
a workshop or a commercialenvironment.
We're putting steel on theinside uh, walls and ceiling,
but it's the same insulation,it's the same vapor barrier,
it's the same hvac systems, it'sthe same electrical.
(18:49):
It's the same kitchens, it'sthe same everything.
Just put drywall on and putcarpet or tile or velvet nice
flooring down how was that, howwas that received?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
for people like what are you?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
yeah, they thought I was crazy, um, because it had
been being done, but it was likedone for hunting shacks or you
know, just very, very rare, orit was taking an actual 100, 150
year old barn and and andbuilding it into a man cave kind
of thing, so it it wasn't superpopular.
(19:20):
And then one of my coworkersdid the same thing and then,
onesie, twosie, you know, theyjust started popping up and at
the time we're building justregular conventional homes,
basement block foundations,which you see every day.
Customers would walk in andthey would ask they would act
(19:41):
embarrassed, asking the question.
You know that was a really niceshed.
Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, do people ever livein those?
Yeah, dude, I do.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
But they'd heard of it.
But to say it out loud, youknow, they felt silly asking
about it like whether it was areal thing.
And then, as it started tobecome more popular, we were
starting to transition fromconventional home construction
to post-frame, to barn dominiums.
But the financial world wasn'tlatching onto it.
(20:15):
It was seen the same as an oldmanufactured home, like an old
trailer house.
So people weren't willing, likethese banks weren't willing to
lend money on these kind ofplaces when they first started,
and luckily, a gal who was onher way up north, driving up
highway 65, uh popped in, she'sfrom the banking world and and
just started asking questionsand and she's like, you know,
(20:38):
I'll talk to my boss, but Ithink, uh, I think we'll finance
them and that's been, you know,a 20-year relationship now
where they've they've beenwilling to treat you know that
type of construction the same asconventional construction and,
of course, now that everybody'son the bandwagon, everybody's on
the bandwagon, yeah right, sofinancing now is a non-issue, if
(20:58):
If you were to say, like put aconventional stick-built house
next to the comparable barndominium version of it, what
would be the price comparisonbetween the two?
The barn dough will be moreexpensive because in a
conventional house there's not alot to get excited about.
You've seen it all.
It's all the same as yourneighbors, it's nothing.
(21:20):
But as soon as you start thebarn dough process and you see
the possibilities, you digdeeper into your pockets and you
find more so that you can havemore.
No, I'm just kidding.
That has happened and it doeshappen.
But I mean, if you're trulytalking about apples to apples,
I mean there might be about a20% difference.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
More on the Barn Dominium side.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Savings on the Barn Do side.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Savings on the Barn.
Do side, if you were to do itcomparably.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Correct If you would take the same floor plan, same
finishes, same everything.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Really, yeah, for sure, I've always been told that
they're a lot more expensiveand that's kind of like the
general thought.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
But that was the story I told.
Yeah, once you get involved andyou see all the possibilities.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Because you can literally do anything.
There's a lot to get excitedabout.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And so, yeah, they do end up spending, you know,
typically way more than theyintended to, Because they see
the value in it right, yeah.
Oh, for this much money I canget this many more square feet,
or I can have a bigger kitchen,an extra bathroom.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, and I suppose it's just not that easy on a
stick.
Build house because you'regetting into structural
engineering.
Basically in a barn, you candesign this box however you want
.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The truth is, you can in a conventional house too,
but there's just too muchconventional thought processes
that tie people uppsychologically Like, oh, this
is how this is done, this is howthis is done.
And when you switch to a barndoe and you've been told, well,
you can do anything you want,well, that's when they believe
you.
You can do anything you want.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
You can always do anything you want.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
It's just easier to accept that reality when it's a
barn doe, because there's notdecades of shit that's been
burned into people's brainsabout what their limitations are
.
No, there are no limitations Dowhatever you want, that's deep.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
That's very philosophical of you.
Now take all my money.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
How long has Sherman been in business?
For how many years?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Since 1976.
Yeah, now that's on the fineprint on the billboards.
How many years?
Since 1976.
Yeah, now that's on the fineprint on the billboards Quality
erections since 1976.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
So in your time and with your experience with the
company, how has materials andtechniques changed over time?
I can only assume things in the70s were done a little bit
different than they are now.
Yeah for sure.
Materials.
So what you see on the outside,the steel skin that covers the
walls and the roof.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
The 70s were done a little bit different than they
are now, yeah for sure, uh,materials.
So what you see on the outside,the, the steel uh skin that's
on um covers the, the walls onthe roof.
Uh yeah, back in the 70s andand well into the 80s, uh, trims
were very limited.
Uh, the first buildings, youjust, instead of having a nice
finished corner to make thetransition from roof to wall,
(23:59):
you just leave the, the roofsteel a little bit longer and
just kind of roll it over andfold it, fold it onto the wall,
you know, drive some lead nailsthrough it to hold it down.
Ridges were just, you know, kindof bent over.
You didn't, you didn'tterminate at this corner and
this corner and then put a trimpiece on.
You just kind of folded it overand kept going Right.
And then put a trim piece on.
You just kind of folded it overand kept going right.
(24:20):
Sizes, varieties, colors,textures, profile shapes were
extremely limited.
Steel links came in two-footincrements.
So if you wanted an odd-sizedbuilding you had to pay for the
next two-foot increment up.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Oh sure and recycling wasn't a big thing back then
either, so it just went into thelandfill or someplace.
Or a hole.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Dig a hole, or a chicken coop, or whatever, I'm
sure the evolution of tools, too, has made just the on-site work
night and day different.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah for sure.
So as the product became morepopular, so did all of the
materials to accomplish it gotmore sophisticated and more
available.
When you're building a shed 10or 15 feet away from a home, you
don't want them to be toocontrasting in their finished
(25:15):
material.
Herb appeal, so it's come along ways.
And tools yeah.
There's a lot of stuff outthere and some of it is
worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I think a lot of it's snake oil.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, I mean, I can cut steel with old-fashioned tin
snips faster and moreaccurately than you can with a
fancy $2,000 tool.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Hot take.
I feel like that's the thingyou have to have this new tool
like it's.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
like that's the thing you have to have this new tool,
otherwise it's not as efficientyeah, sure, I mean it replaces
knowledge and experience, uh,but if you have knowledge,
experience, yeah, you cut itwith your teeth and do it okay.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
So what's the deal?
When I'm driving down the road,I see these barns that have a
like white strip on both sideson the tin separating the side.
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
it was like a 70s uh fashion thing really.
I mean that that's literallyall it was um, skip, uh.
So if your background color,primary color, is red, uh, you
might have a white corner, yourfirst piece of steel red and
then whoa, let's do the nextpiece white, they go back to red
and terminate.
(26:22):
You know, have the same pattern, you know, on all the corners.
So yeah, it's definitely a fadthing.
That happened for a while and infact my wife and I just bought
a piece of property that had apole building on it.
It has a pole building on itand we looked at the property
several times and I didn'treally pay attention to the shed
(26:46):
that much to go look at it tosee if it was a Sherman.
And it wasn't until, I think,our third visit out to the
property that I really stoppedto look at the shed and I'm like
holy shit, this is a Sherman.
And I never considered that itwas, because it was exactly what
you're saying.
It had those accent stripes onit and we almost never did that
because we thought it was sosilly and it was going to date
(27:08):
the building so badly.
But obviously if somebodywanted it we weren't going to
say no to them, but sure enough,it's actually a Sherman.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
That's so funny.
How do you know, by the way,that it's built?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Well, you look for indications that would
disqualify it right.
So at first, the farther awayyou are right you can't tell the
difference.
But as you get closer and youstart to look at more details,
the way that the windows areframed, the way that the service
door this one happens to have asliding door just all of the
little details of construction,and if you can't see one that
disqualifies it as a Shermanmethodology, well then it's a
Sherman.
But I mean, we've had to go outpeople making false warranty
(27:55):
claims.
And you have to go out therebecause if the property changes
hands, we we still try toservice that building right.
And uh, go out there and lookat it and it's like, all right,
I know for positive because wewe have really really good
records back to 1999.
But before that, uh, you knowthey're in boxes or you know who
(28:17):
the hell knows where, wherethose?
records are so we don't have alot of good stuff to go back and
see if it is for sure.
But if we go and physicallylook at it we can see certain
details that we know we've neverdone that 10,000, 20,000
buildings.
I don't know how many it is,but not one of them ever had
that detail.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, has there ever been a scenario where you were
like, yeah, we didn't make thisand, yes, you did?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
no, we did not, and here's why yeah, yeah, yeah, um,
I mean not a lot probably I.
I remember it happening atleast two or three times, yeah,
where somebody was trying to saythat that's a sherman.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I was like, well, okay, it's not, it's not, we're
not fixing it, but we'll buildyou a new one.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, um and it's not even just.
You know just about who'sresponsible or whatever.
It's just like I.
I didn't build it because Iknow you know, some particular
detail was something or a brand,a brand of steel or a brand of
door that you just don't use.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Yeah, um, so you guys have beengoing since 1976.
Who started sherman polebuildings?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
um, my dad did um, and so our last name family name
is kelling, but my mother'sname is sherman, so so the
family decided to use that nameinstead of Kelling.
It's just for marketing, it'seasier to use.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Sherman sounds better than Kelling.
That was all it came down to.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Well, I wouldn't say it sounds better, it's just
easier to recognize.
I mean, if you hear it once ortwice it's going to start to
stick.
And honestly, back then, wheneverybody had a phone book and
they would just flip through andsee your name and your address,
we didn't really like the ideaof having our business name the
(30:10):
same as our last name.
And then anybody with you know,found a box of shells and a and
a bad attitude could find youraddress that easily.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
No, that's a that's a good point.
So this is coming from the ideathat, like I don't even want to
be in the same relativevicinity, in the directory of
the thing was there ever athought like if we sell this, we
don't want us to be thebusiness, we want the business
to be the business.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, I mean so.
Maybe it sounds like I'm beinga hypocrite here but yeah, we do
live and breathe our business.
But a lot of us live very, veryclose, live very, very close.
(31:06):
In fact, where the lumber yardsits, it is on a 20-acre piece
of property that my parentsbought and they built a house on
that property with the business, and then my older brother and
I each had homes on the sameproperty.
So we really never had a choice.
We could never get away and thenwhen the business name is the
same as your name.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
You know, not only are you physically close, but
you're easy to track down yeahbecause the mailboxes are all
the same right and it is a smallenough town, so obviously
everyone already knows locallyyeah but I could see what you're
saying.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
It was just one layer of separation.
Should we ever feel the need,hey, how about it's Christmas
and we all just chill out and wedon't have to be on our phones
or be in meetings all day todaybecause it's Christmas?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, how much of that grind mentality actually
contributes to success when itcomes to building a construction
business.
At what point is it, you know,safe or healthy to be like, hey,
let's just not work right now,because I mean, obviously it's
no secret.
Like if you want to grow, youhave to do that.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
but at what point do you stop and be like, hey, you
can't, I don't know it's tough,because everything is a slippery
slope, right, whether you'regoing falling uphill or falling
downhill, you know, there'salways momentum.
And as soon as you say, yeah,you know I think we're good, yep
, yep, we're at this size, we'reat this comfort level, let's
just try to coast.
Comfort level, let's just tryto coast.
(32:39):
You know, I'm sure that ifyou're just, you know, years
away from retirement and youdon't have any succession plans
or next generations coming up,that's where most businesses end
, and there's no such thing asan eternal business.
They all end sometime and youreach that point and it's like,
(32:59):
okay, well, what do I have tosell now?
What do I have as my retirement, the body of my life's work?
What does it amount to?
Well, if I'm going to retire intwo years, I don't have any
kids, I don't have anysuccession plan, then it's a
fire auction.
You sell the assets for theirsalvage value and the show's
over.
And so what drives us to keepgoing is, if there are kids, if
(33:26):
there are grandkids, if there'sanybody else that's ever
interested, well, we want to.
What do you want your nextgeneration to inherit?
A bunch of debt and a shit showor a good system with promise
and opportunity.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, I guess that goes into makes me think, like
you personally.
Then how do you want to beknown for future generations
after you're gone?
Do you think you want to beknown as the Sherman guy, or
what else?
What do you want to be knownfor?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I mean I'll be dead, so it doesn't really matter, it
goes one of either way.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Someone's like this is my legacy, or I don't even
get a shit.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Would that be cool if they built a statue and you
know my honor and you knowworshiped it.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, Right at the yard.
It's not like I'm going toappreciate it.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I'm going to appreciate it.
I'm going to be dead.
That's a good point.
No, I just want them to haveopportunity and, more
importantly, to know thatthere's opportunity, whether
it's with this family, businessor anywhere in life.
One of the saddest things towitness is someone who doesn't
think that they have options oropportunity, and almost
everybody does.
I'm sure there's a handful ofyou know somebody will point out
(34:42):
.
Well, this person doesn't.
But for the most part, we allhave opportunity.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
How much of that is circumstantial versus
self-inflicted?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, luck is a big factor.
I mean, I'm not arrogant enoughto think that we manifested
everything about it.
Being in the right place at theright time is certainly helpful
, but there are prerequisites.
Right Working hard is just aprerequisite.
(35:10):
You have to be willing to dothat.
You have to have a certainamount of humility and
willingness and pleasantness forpeople to help you, because
you're not going to get anywherewithout people helping you.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
And if you're just a complete asshole 24-7,.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
nobody's going to help you, so you have to have
all of those things that aresomewhat within your control to
be ready.
If you don't show up for thegame, how are you going?
Speaker 3 (35:38):
to win.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And those are all just things that are necessary
ingredients, but they don'tguarantee it right?
If I was thinking about thisthe other day, if hard work
alone was all that it took, ifhard work alone was all that it
(35:59):
took, the citizens of thirdworld countries might be the
wealthiest people on the planet,because every once in a while
you watch a video of some dudeor dudes just working their ass
off, thinking, oh my God, Icouldn't keep that up for 10
minutes, and they do it sevendays a week for a lifetime.
So don't tell me hard work isthe key to success, because
(36:21):
there are billions of peoplethat work way harder than I've
ever worked a minute in my life.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I think everyone stumbled across a good 3am
rabbit hole of people building apool in the middle of a jungle
with hand tools.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
That was my first thought a little filipino boy
with the stick carving out afull pool and it looks
incredible.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
By the end it's like, yeah, that here would be a
hundred thousand dollar piece ofarchitecture in someone's
backyard he's takingcraftsmanship and skill,
combining it with hard work inhorrible conditions with limited
resources, and buildingsomething beautiful.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
And you're going to tell me that you live in America
and there's nothing out there.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
You just yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
I got no opportunity.
Go knock on some doors orsomething.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
It's preparation meeting opportunity.
Yeah, like these also, thesepeople make let's not even
church this up like these peoplemake amazing money off of the
views that they get from thesevideos.
I actually just watched a videoabout this recently, talking
about how, like, how many tensof thousands of dollars they
make when they post a videobecause of how many views they
get now but originally, whenthey're starting out like making
(37:28):
no money oh yeah making thisfor nobody other than themselves
.
I guess I don't know if they'repaid to make this or not.
I would assume not.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Oh, in some circumstances.
But when you see a video of abrick factory where they're
hand-making, real brick.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
This is not real brick, by the way.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
They retail for like a penny a piece, right?
So how much do you think thatguy is making?
It's a whole factory or a wholeroom full of these.
You know people make handmaking these bricks.
They're getting paid far lessthan a penny a piece for them,
seven days a week uh, yeahthat's not a video that's going
viral that any of those workersare seeing a nickel from
(38:11):
probably not a lot of a lot ofcameras in that factory either
that they're pumping thesethings out.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
There's not a lot of pride in that, I would think
right, I'm really proud of thisbrick here.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
So that's, that's two different worlds.
The guy who sets up his camerain the jungle to build that pool
that you're talking about, yeah, well, that's, that's for that
purpose.
But just somebody taking uh, uh, 15 seconds, 10 or 15 seconds
in you know one of thoseenvironments where they're
making something with hard, hardlabor that doesn't have a lot
(38:42):
of value, they're not makingvases, vases, vases Very fancy
of you, vases, very fancy fortens of thousands of dollars.
They're making a brick.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Right, yeah, very true, very true.
And that's something to be saidabout just business in general
too.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
If you build a quality product, it's going to
be worth more If you're buildinga sheen shed.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
So now you take all of those prerequisites and you
apply them to something that hasvalue.
You apply all that effort tosomething that the world wants
or needs.
Effort to something that theworld wants or needs.
Right that there's a hugedifference too, then?
Oh, I'm doing this for myself,because I love art, you know
yeah well, great, maybe you knowa hundred years after you're
dead.
Tiffany is a little auction.
(39:26):
It for a million dollars, right?
Speaker 1 (39:28):
right.
Well, that was like somethingthat I found interesting about
finding out that picasso died inlike the 70s or whatever you
know.
Yeah, first off, I thought thisguy was like way older, you
know, and uh, it was rumoredthat, uh, or maybe it was Van
Gogh.
Yeah, it was Van Gogh that likebasically sold no paintings
(39:50):
while he was alive yeah, dirtpoor, his entire life died, not
being successful, and now hispaintings are worth millions.
Yeah, you know how much of thattranslates over to what you
take on building pole sheds.
Do you think that there's atimeless aspect to it?
Or, like, what's the future ofthe business when you're
designing and building some ofthese things?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
um, well, kind of like, what I was saying before
was um, I'll be dead, so itwon't matter a whole lot to me,
but before I die, I want them tohave that opportunity.
And if they squander it all and, um, change the routines, uh,
drop the commitment, uh, or tryto coast through it and lose it
(40:33):
all, well, that's on them.
Uh.
If they want to perpetuate itto the next level, for one more
generation, great.
And then it's the question ofthe next generation or the next.
I mean, nothing lasts forever.
As much as you'd like tofantasize about building
something that's going to last amillennial, great.
Right Good luck If it does.
But each generation has thatresponsibility.
(40:56):
You know themselves.
Whatever you start with alittle or a lot, um you know
it's up to that generation tofigure out how to what to do
with it.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
What do you think is harder trying to run a pole
building company or building thepole sheds themselves?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Oh, I love building sheds.
There's like there's nothinking involved.
You know to that uh, um, onceyou reach a certain point, um,
after you've been doing it, youknow 25, 30 years it's just pure
joy, you, you play music thatyou know it's not too loud
depending upon the neighborhoodthat you're at uh, and you just
(41:39):
do what you've been doing sinceyou know, before kindergarten
yeah that's the story I tell asI put in the puzzle together my
mom, because she made me go tokindergarten and all I wanted to
do is go build a shed.
How?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
how often are you jumping back in with the crew
these days?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
not very, not very often do you every?
Speaker 3 (41:56):
once in a while, you ever get the hands dirty, so
currently I reserve my tool beltfor uh volunteer work.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Mostly we support the uh, the canada county ag
society sure that puts on thefair in in mora and that's
that's where I put my tool belton.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, it's a good balance.
Know you got to get back outthere and yeah, I, I mean I
probably should.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
I could spend less time in the gym if I just wore
my tool belt in real life doingreal work every once in a while,
um for sure.
But, um, it's easy to get lostin the field, right, because you
can.
You can say you know, I'm goingto leave my phone in my truck.
Everybody's just going to haveto wait to get back to me until
the end of the day because I'mdoing, you know, I'm building a
(42:43):
shed.
I'm doing really important workright now.
It's easy to use that as ajustification for just getting
lost in the you know fun,beautiful experience of building
a shed.
And but then really, uh, areyou just neglecting you know all
of your other responsibilities?
Because when you have 80employees, uh, that's, that's
(43:06):
fun to say and to have, but youhave a responsibility to each
one of them too.
If they need something andyou're the guy that can solve a
problem, or answer a question,uh, or help move something along
, you have to be available forthem right now.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
I mean, well, going back to that same thought
process too.
Like you haven't always workedat sherman, you stepped away to
go do your own thing.
You've done multiple venturesoutside of sherman yeah, yeah
mean never too far away.
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, um so during the housing crash, um, I worked
for a friend in his uh mediacompany for uh almost two years.
Um then, uh, my wife and I anduh two of my siblings went to
Northern California and builtfitness clubs.
(43:58):
And then I really love bigtrucks, I think they're super
cool, so I started a truckingcompany it's a horrible idea and
we did over-the-road truckingand then eventually did some
work in the oil fields in NorthDakota and Texas.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
What possessed you to get out of the family business
to go do your own thing?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Well, during all of that, my kids were either too
young or the oldest was incollege and doing his own thing,
and so I didn't know what thenext generation was going to
look like, and during thehousing crash, during that
recession, I wanted to keep asmany key people in place, you
(44:43):
know, in the optimism thatsomeday you know work was going
to bounce back, so I justremoved myself and let other
people keep their positions,rather than laying people off.
Other than that, it's once thekids came back, though, or now I
have two.
Two of my our three boys arethere.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
Now it feels like I have a real purpose for why to
stay there, to stay focused ondefinitely was there an
expectation in your household towork for sherman, or was it
pretty open to do whatever youwant?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
no, no, um, and more so.
The expectation was, if you'regoing to work here, you better
bring something unique andspecial to the table.
Um, go to college or go getsome other life experience that
you can, uh, bring back, and notbe like the uh, uh, the guys
that ride around in the buggies,the Amish.
(45:37):
You know if if we're not diverseenough, if we don't have enough
experience outside our littlebubble, then how do we gain from
you know uh, other knowledgeand other experience?
So yeah, go out, figure outsomething new, something unique
to bring back.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Was there any part of you when your own children
started working there, with youhaving the position that you are
at Sherman?
Were you worried at all thatthey would almost feel like?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Assassinated me to take over.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
More of where.
Like you know oh, my dad's thebig wig around here Were you
worried that that was going tobe an attitude that was brought
into the workplace?
Speaker 2 (46:15):
That's necessary.
It's absolutely necessary, uh,because if they were, uh, you
know, too arrogant or cockyabout it, um, you know the the
world of of safe places inschool.
You know where you can't bully,that that doesn't, that doesn't
exist outside of schoolproperty.
(46:35):
So I talked about that beforetoo.
In earning respect, and if youwant respect, you have to give
it first of all, and then youhave to produce something or
demonstrate something to earn itback.
So, yeah, if they walked in tooarrogant or thinking this is my
(46:55):
dad's place, Good luck withthat, because, if anything,
they're probably treated moreharshly than any other
Speaker 3 (47:03):
new guy because of that.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Because it's obvious.
I mean there's a target ontheir back, and so when they
fuck up, everybody knows aboutit.
And I fuck up constantly, mykids fuck up constantly, we all
do, and it doesn't matter whoyou are.
You need to be called out forit so that you can learn and try
better next time.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
So, actually, before we end this thing, I wanted to
show you this photo thatactually that we found, and we
were told that you were actuallyin a rock band in high school
and we found this image of youwhile you were in this band.
How come you didn't pursue thisdream of being a rock star?
Speaker 2 (47:49):
there's early there's one reason, and one reason only
, for singing and playing theguitar, and it's to get girls.
And uh, I was lucky enough toget one um at a at a young age.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Met my wife when we were in high school was it the
band that helped you make it 100?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
she will deny it she claimed she never saw any of our
uh, any of our concerts, neverwent to any of our shows, but
but I know for a fact she wasthere.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
She got ratted out.
She was a hardcore fan.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
So, yeah, it worked, it did its job, and I haven't
played guitar since you met yourwife.
Retired the pick.
Now if she smartens up andleaves me someday, guess who's
gonna learn how to play guitaragain and has two thumbs this
(48:43):
guy that's funny.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Well, before we end this thing, is there any piece
of knowledge that you could dropon someone that has a dream of
owning a construction businessthemselves?
Speaker 2 (48:56):
yeah, acceptance that you don't know anything and I
really I don't know anything,but there's this thing called
books or things called books.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Read them, study them .
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Because what you and I can discuss and discover here
today, or in a lifetime ofhanging out, is nothing compared
to what's out there.
Now we have the convenience ofYouTube and you know all of the
internet, but just learn, justhold your opinions lightly with
(49:30):
your fingertips so they can beeasily challenged and replaced
with better opinions and betterideas, Because in one lifetime
you can never learn everythingthat can help you, so read learn
.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Boom, that's all you need to do.
Youtube it if you have to, ifyou can't read.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
With ChatGPT.
That's almost a little tooclose to home.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Everyone's going to stop learning how to read and
even quit learning how to looksomething up on Google and just
start typing it into ChatGP.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, but when written language first came out,
that was the big fear was thatpeople were going to forget how
to tell stories.
Right, because you don't needto tell a story anymore, it's
just written.
So every generation oftechnology, something is
potentially lost, but thesociety is still perpetuating,
(50:24):
we're still growing and we'regoing to be dead, so we don't
even care about it.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Let them figure it out.
All right, steve?
Thank you so much for coming on.
We will see you next time.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
All right, sounds great, thank you.
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