June 7, 2022 • 43 mins
“Grey’s Anatomy'' cast members Chris Carmack (Dr. Atticus Lincoln), Zaiver Sinnett (Zander Perez), and writer Jamie Denbo sat down with The Creative Coalition CEO Robin Bronk. In this episode, the trio share how “Grey’s Anatomy” tackles social issues with deep-rooted stigmas such as obesity.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
This is On the Edge, apodcast series from the Creative Coalition featuring conversations
with an edge and chats with personalitiesfrom the world of entertainment. Now here's
your host, Creative Coalition CEO RobinBronk. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to On the Edge with the CreativeCoalition. I am so excited to welcome
(00:29):
some of the gang from the longestrunning primetime medical drama and ABC's longest running
current primetime show, Gray's Anatomy.Seriously, how many of y'all belly up
to Gray's Anatomy every week and startself diagnosing yourself? I'm not sure if
that's a plus or a minus eitherway. Today we get to have a
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tapist of the brains and the talentbehind Grays. So in the hot seat
we have Chris Carmack, otherwise knownas doctor Atticus Lincoln. I don't know
whether it'll like him or not.He always seems like a really good person,
but well you can decide. XavierSennet, who's doctor Xander Paris,
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and Grey's co executive producer and writerJamie Denbo. I am so excited to
fold back the curtain and expose themagic of Grey's Anatomy. So come on
in. So hi everyone, thisis our first multi voiced podcast, so
that's pretty exciting for us. It'slike having the first multi cam. I
(01:36):
guess in my world, in myworld up too much? No, no,
please do. In fact, ifyou want to take over, you'll
probably be much better than me.Am. I going to keep that in
the recording. We're not going toedit that out. The hot seat is
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open. So I'm here with JamieDenbo, one of the writers from Grey's
Anatomy, Chris Carmack. But yourreal name is James Christopher in case anyone
is looking. And social security note, yes, please give us your social
security number. That's pretty much standardon the website. Yeah, ye,
standard operating procedure. We'll put itin the press release. And Xavier,
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Hi and Chris and Xavier are twobeloved characters. I'm Grace. I love
you, guys. I love you? Is that weird? I love you?
Just got weird? Oh it's gonnaget weirder um And I'm just gonna
jump right in. Jamie wrote anepisode. It was season eighteen, episode
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ten, Living in a House Divided, Grey's Anatomy. You have broken all
great records with your show. It'sall great boundaries, all great awards.
So this season, this episode wewere particularly interested in because you take on
this whispered whispered so we call itthe Last of the Shame and blames obesity.
(03:14):
Yes, and you know, I'mthe new kid on season eighteen.
I came into the show on seasoneighteen and having been a fan for a
very long time, and what wasreally exciting to me was how I've noticed
over the years the way that Grey'sAnatomy tells its stories authentically through those characters
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that we all love, but managesto sneak in some awareness and some social
justice on occasion, but awareness ingeneral about things that, yeah, like
you say, are often whispered about, and what we try to do is
present them very factually and very evidencebased. You know, we as writers,
obviously most of us, although somepeople actually do have a medical background
(04:00):
in the writer's room, I amnot one of those people. I am
not a doctor, but I amsomeone who appreciates the daily emails that the
writers often get from our medical researchteam, where they will send us all
kinds of medical stories in the news, and you know, you'll get anything
from you know, a woman felloff the back of a jet ski and
(04:23):
the water blasted up her butt.To you know, stories about people facing
discrimination for all kinds of marginalized group, all kinds of marginalized groups facing discrimination
within the medical industry. So wealways have these ideas circulating in our brains,
and this particular issue was a passionfor one of our writers, Kylie
(04:44):
Donovan, who I have checked withand said that she said I could name
check her. She's someone that verymuch wanted to talk about this issue.
It's something that she herself has struggledwith as far as discrimination in the medical
industry, and so it was verymuch on her radar. But interestingly,
Kylie actually does double duty. Sheworks for Station nineteen, our Sisters Show
and Gray's Anatomy. And you know, it was already we were to episode
(05:08):
ten and the issue of obesity hadnot organically worked it way into our stories
that we were telling. I gotan episode where there was definitely space for
another medical story, and I said, I would like to talk about the
obesity issue. And there were alot of ways to come at it.
You know, we look at ourcharacters and we say who best to represent
(05:30):
to talk to, who are ourdoctors and who is the right patient?
And we looked at our doctors andwe just thought Chris and Xavier were really
good opportunities. Link and Zander arethe characters, and we thought they were
a great opportunity to tell some stories. Chris, So you play doctor doctor
Lincoln, right, that's right,So addicts Lincoln. Depends on how formal
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you want to be. Well,I respect your white coat, your fantasy
whitecoat. So doctor Doc, yourcharacter? What resonated with you in this
episode? What resonated with you personallyanything or had you thought about it before?
(06:12):
Well? You know, unfortunately forme, the actor playing the character
of Link, it resonated like hewas in a way that I felt in
doctor's office myself before, where somebody'sa little too fast, a little too
Kurt and I wouldn't say Kurt,but but didn't examine the patient. And
sometimes you can sit there in aroom and feel like did I even talk
(06:32):
to the doctor? And I thinkin this episode, Link is that doctor.
And you know, sometimes we haveto play that role, especially when
it's about an issue that we wantto bring to light. So it resonated
a little bit like that you're adoctor also, you do like a lot
of athletic and isn't that it's allabout like the body and the athleticness of
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might wrong on that, Oh yeah, I might get not a doctor and
me that did? I play oneon Dave. But I mean it's sort
of that respect for the body.I mean, I've an orthopedist, you
know, that's why you call it. I think for us in the writer's
room, it was like, who'sthe doctor that represents athleticism, not just
you know, in his actual physique, but also represents someone that deals a
(07:17):
lot with sports injuries. He dealsa lot with you know, maintaining health
and care of the body in away. That would be an interesting place
to start from when talking about theOBC issue because of the presumptions around obesity.
If you talk about your character andhow it fits into this episode and
what drives your character in the showin particular. Yeah, So Xander getting
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to kind of be a part ofthe story was really special to me because
you know, I am a chunkygirl myself, and I was excited to
kind of have that represation played outon the show and during the episode for
Xander. You know, the episodestarts at this eminem or one of his
peers. Levi is kind of onthe stand because he had a patient that
he thought he could do more within surgery than he was actually capable of
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and that patient ended up dying.And Xanders has seen his peer going through
this terrible loss and this really monumentalmoment in his career that's really dark,
and I think for Xander in thisepisode, he came out of that being
like, if I see something iswrong, I'm going to advocate for my
patient. Because if there had beenan advocate in the room when Levi was
doing surgery, that patient might havesurvived. So I feel like that's where
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Xander's headspace was. So when Lilacomes in and, as Chris said,
Link is just kind of busy anddoing his doctor thing and kind of just
in and out, I think thatis a moment for Xander to be like,
hold on, I think there's morehere and I want to be an
advocate for my patient. And that'ssomething that's really special to me. In
the episode, you'll see that Jamiebeautifully crafted is like advocacy in a lot
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of different ways, Like Xander isadvocating for Lilah and then later like Bailey
kind of advocates for Xander and backshim up, and it's a lot of
people supporting each other, and evenLink like eventually gets it, like he
sees it and he's willing to change, and it was all beautifully done,
Jamie. But I think that's whatwas my special for me, for Xanders,
that he got that moment to reallykind of rise up and advocate.
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You know what was really exciting aboutyou know, First of all, I
want to also applaud Chris. Iknow it so it can be so hard
and awkward to like represent what mightbe thought of as sort of like a
awkwardly not cool point of view,you know what I mean, in what
is clearly like a story about someonedealing with discrimination of some kind. But
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I do think that what we woundup having was also a representation. I
myself had to go through a learningcurve. I'm gen X all the way,
you know, and my generation wastaught fat bad, that is bad
and it's your fault. That wasthe message that was put out there.
It takes a lot of time,I think, and a lot of very
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smart material information presented in a greatway to explain that's not true. Just
because you learned it when you werea kid doesn't mean that it was right,
even though the smart, fancy olderpeople told you that was the case.
And there's a lot of great informationout there. There's a podcast called
The Maintenance Phase, which is AubreyGordon and I forget the other host's name,
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but it talks very much about obesityand diet culture as wrong, and
that conversation is only starting to happenin mass media. And I do feel
super proud that we could bring itto Gray's, even just in a little
bit, because I wanted to coverso much more. We only have forty
two minutes to tell these stories.But what we thought would be the most
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impactful was to see someone from myold point of view putting Chris in that
role as someone who assumes that theweight is definitely contributing to the injury that
he's examining when it is not.You know, this presumption that losing weight
will always help, It's like,no, it won't. Sometimes it has
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absolutely nothing to do. There areso many other things we wanted to say
that we just didn't have time forthat. You can be a big girl,
big boy, big kid, bigperson, and you might have a
better circulatory system than you know,a marathon runner. You know, we
wanted to talk about that, Wewanted to talk, but we felt like
this moment got the most bang forthe buck. There's still so much more
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to tell. It's not antibody positivity, as Jamie sort of just alluded to.
It's not a shame and blame.So either Chris or a Xavier,
how did you? How did youyourselves? I mean, did you had
you thought about this before? Oryeah, well listen, we're all humans
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walking around in these communities. Hadyou thought about this issue before and you
know, or maybe it hadn't.So we use the metric BMI in this
episode a lot, which is aflawed metric on many levels, which I
personally no because I have a lotof friends who are bodybuilders and their BMI
is, you know, off thecharts, and it's been used for so
(12:09):
long in the health industry and it'sit's like kind of grandfathered in as this
thing. I was reading up aboutit about how it's sort of entangled in
insurance rates and doctors have to fillit out to get Medicaid payments and all
kinds of stuff. So it's kindof like it's kind of stuck in there.
But it's this flawed metric, whichwhich of course I've thought about because
I'm kind of a muscular guy.I've lifted weights my whole life, and
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I really edge on the edge ofBMI as well. So just from the
perspective of looking at it and going, yeah, that doesn't seem right,
I've thought about it, but it'snot something I've spent a lot of time
thinking about personally. Well, Iguess getting to say, if you're you
know, you said you have hadpersonal experience with this, and you do,
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why did you want the audience,your audience and your fans to take
away from this? For me,it was I think most important that we
You know, you said something earlier. I can't remember exactly how you worded
it, but you said it's likethe last known offense type thing, and
I think, you know, obesityis something where if you're walking down the
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street and someone says, you know, I can say this because I'm black
and gay, I'm all the things, but if someone says like a racial
slur, or someone says something homophobic, or someone being a misogynist, like
you can shout those things down andsociety is getting better about shouting those things
down, but obesit still seems tobe the thing where, whether it's a
macro or microaggression, a lot ofpeople are just like, well, you
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know, like no one really shoutsit down. So I loved having an
opportunity in this episode to be likey'all the way that we talk in like
the discourse on people who are overweightor obese or have obesity. I love
that we were able to shout itdown, and that's kind of what was
important to me, and the takeawayfor people who go to the doctor,
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and you know, I think weprobably all have been in a situation like
this. I know I have anappointment where I have a genuine concern and
the first thing a doctor will goto is, well, you should lose
some weight, like that scene withLincoln Lilah. I've had that exact moment
on more than I would need tohounds to count at least. And I
love putting out the message that like, no, you need to be stern
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in your medical advocacy because oftentimes ithas nothing to do with the weight,
but that's just the first thing thatpeople see sometimes. So I love reinforcing
this idea that the weight has solittle to do with it a lot of
the time, and you really needto listen to your patient and your patient's
needs, Jamie. You must getpitched issues all the time. So where
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do you guys get your ideas from? Is it ripped from the headlines?
Is it conversations? I mean yes, and yes, we definitely find that.
You know, we have a bigstoryline about military burn pits and the
effect it has on soldiers who,particularly in the Middle East, Iraq and
Afghanistan, are military coming home andhaving all kinds of respiratory illness. You
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know, this was a huge passionfor one of our writers, so we
really wanted to talk about it.We are sort of you know, the
beauty of Grey's Anatomy is because itis such a diverse spectrum of characters with
such diverse backgrounds, we are almostable to organically find ways to connect them
to important stories when important stories areones that we want to tell. You
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know, this was a no brainerbecause you know, Xavier, who's also
just such an insanely charming character anda fan favorite and has been nominated as
such in publications that I have seenrecently, and I forget which one,
but you know, to have himand to have a body type also that
represents this issue on a personal level. It just all made sense. So
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we have so many moments like that. You know, we have military doctors,
so we knew that this was astory that we could tell about the
burn pits. We have a brainsurgeon, and we have Meredith Gray,
so telling our Parkinson's storyline. Youknow, all of these things very naturally
weave very well into the fabric that'salready there. That's sort of the beauty
of Shanda Rhimes created a spectrum ofhuman beings with all different experience. So
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when we get these issues brought tous, either in that daily email,
which we still get, you knowthat talk about great anything from freaky medical
to a very important medical we allkind of mentally make notes about what we
connect to individually as writers. Andlike, I mean I chose that jet
Ski story, I was like,what water up the butt? I'm used
to be in comedy. That soundslike, well, I'm gonna want to
(16:37):
steal, so anything from that toreal things. I think it's really been.
It's such an honor for me tobe in this writer's room and to
get to experience that. I willsay, just as the new kid,
the old old new kid. Well, how did you switch what side of
your brain from comedy to medical drama? Oh well, listen, comedy people
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are very dark individuals with a lotof drama. Yeah, exactly. It
was a natural progression. Yeah,kind of in some ways, this is
where I was meant to wind up. At first. I really did think
I was just there to like findnew ways to make testicles blow up in
the er. But I have beenI have been useful in other ways,
(17:21):
and I'm so honored I am totell a story like this with these really
really talented actors. Do take methrough, Take us through. When you're
writing an episode, what's the process? You know, the process in grades.
I'll try to keep it nice andshort, is such that before we
even start get anywhere in near production, before we start churning out those very
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first scripts. And by the way, Xavier can speak to this as well,
because Xavier, I don't know ifyou know this, is also a
full time writer on Station nineteen,so he also can speak to the process
that we have in Christopher Enough roomswhere it's such that we spend a few
weeks thinking talking about the kinds oflong story that we want to tell for
these characters over a season, andthen ultimately, when we get breaking our
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episodes individually and moving along, wereally try to find what part of each
of these long stories we can continueto tell, and then what are the
interesting beginning, middle end stories wecan fit into an individual episode that will
all help create a theme for eachepisode. And I know that sounds a
little vague and crazy, but ultimately, when you think about it, finding
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themes for your episodes and helping youstay sort of those within that sort of
mental boundary helps you create really greatmoments for our characters within their point of
view that represent a theme. Oftenthey're reflected in the titles of the songs,
the name the episodes. For example, living in a House Divided the
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episode that we were talking about,we knew that everybody was going to be
fighting about what Xavier was just talkingabout Levi's eminem. People are going to
have different points of view about whathe did or didn't do correctly in that
surgery, and people would be ateach other, And it felt like a
good opportunity to have a case whereI knew I wanted to talk about obesity.
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But to have a case where twodoctors had very different points of view,
you know they would be divided onthis issue until Bailey comes in and
speaks the language that Chris's character linkcan really understand. No, BMI doesn't
work. It's there for the insurancecompanies and it is so it fit into
the theme very nicely. I hopethat sort of concisely helps you understand the
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process. Yeah, I'm sure thateveryone listening wants to know how they can
pitch you, So that's what theycan always send ideas. Sure, who
knows, but go ahead a terribleinjury and get it in the news.
Yeah, don't do that, Chris, tell me about your audition for Atticus.
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Well, Atticus came on as arecurring guest star role, so I
was kind of able to sneak inand we didn't know how long he was
going to be around. But towardsthe end of that first season him and
Amelia paired up, and then Ibecame a part of the show. So
it was originally not necessarily going tobe a long tenure, but I'm glad
it has become one. I've reallyenjoyed my time there. Well, how
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did you become one with Atticus.How did you care for that? Well?
Do you share any traits any ofhis? Well? I do now.
I mean, you know, it'slike you've been on a series for
five years. You you know,the writers get to know you, they
get to know your voice, andyou know, they narrow it in more
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on you. I would say thatI came to set with a little bit
of a more like sports bro kindof idea, and that's kind of how
it was written. But on dayone Christopherneff was there and she pulled me
to side and she's like, no, no, no, it's it's too
much. She pulled me back andbring the broad down. Yeah, bring
(21:02):
the rod down. But I haveto say I was done a favor by
Debbie Allen with the epic blow speedentrance in the fans, blowing the hair,
and I mean, you can't geta better entrance than that. You
pretty much have permission to do anythingafter that. Say here, what about
your audition? So wait, wereyou writing it? See? Were you
writing first or you were acting first? So I was an assistant when I
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got the role. Okay, Somy journey, just the short version is
I started Grays the same season asChris in season fifteen, and I was
a writer's PA in the writer's roombecause you know, I wanted to do
a writer That's what I came outto Los Angeles to do. And my
second season, I was an executiveassistant for Andy Resart and Meg Marinas,
and I would just say quippy thingsaround the office, like you know,
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whenever, like particularly the women wouldleave, I would tell them to have
a good night because their icons,which is something familiar if you watched the
show, and just like that.So Andy Reso, I think, was
just determined to kind of get acharacter inspired by me in an episode.
So he got written into an episode. And then we have writer's reats where
we read the script in the room, and then we have table rereads when
we read it with the cast.And I read that character for both and
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he got laughed. And then finallyKrista and I think Andy had kind of
planted the seed, but Christa waslike, I think you should just play
him. So it was like reallycool, and I auditioned formally and I
got the role, and it wascool to kind of get this role that
was written and inspired by me,and then to actually get to play him,
which was just a thing that Inever expected to happen, and I
was supposed to be for an episode, and then because my characters had a
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different hospital at the time, packNorth and then those hospitals merge, like
Catherine brought that hospital and then heshowed up again and it became a thing.
So it was like a really coollike I feel like I snuck in
the back door a little bit.We'll set you guys. You know,
you just drop into be the guestsand then you don't leave. As a
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writer is you know, sometimes gueststars are sort of you know, there
to really help tell the series regularstories or the main character and those scenes.
You know, they're there to assistthe other actor on that journey.
And what happens over time is whenthese characters start to recur and then they
become regulars, and then you seethem it's like any friendship, right deep
in your understanding of this person,they become three dimensionalized. We want to
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get to know about more, what'sgoing on, what makes them tick,
you know, what kind of motivationsdo they have in their personal life and
professional life. And so I thinkit's so interesting if you do look at
those first episodes where Zander appeared orwhere Link appeared, and how much more
we know? And also at apoint right now where Link is, you
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know, we love him so muchas a character that we know we can
also give him this little blind spotand an episode like this and not fall
out of love with the character.If we brought in a doctor randomly to
have that confrontation with Xavier, wehate that guy, you know, but
we want someone like Link to showthat even these idealized, awesome doctors we
(24:07):
love can have their flaws. Andthere no one's going to fall out of
love with Link when he figures itout and apologizes for his mistake. So
it's been such a cool thing towatch all these characters grow. So how
do you determine what? Like?So these guys came on as guest rolls
and what do you do then sitin the writer's room or do you look
(24:30):
at numbers? I mean, how'sit all? I mean again, new
Kid On season eighteen, Fate andLove decided that these two would get more
FaceTime. Well before I got there, I might have had a very different
opinion. Who knows, But youknow, listen, I think it's very
clear that, like with my predecessorsmade very good decisions in keeping them around.
(24:52):
You were going to say something,It was, yeah, two things.
So I was going to say,you know, Xander's first episode were
in season sixteen, and I wasin two episodes that season, and then
I went to do the Disney Writer'sProgram, so I like left Gray's Anatomy,
and the point of that program isto place you on a show,
you know that's under the Disney umbrella. And I had worked for Christa,
(25:14):
so she called me back and shewas like, I'm putting you on Station
in eighteen as a writer. Thiswould be in season four of Station,
season seventeen of Grades, and shewas like, and I'm also you're going
to play more Xander, which wassuch a blessing. And with Link kind
of to Jamie's point of what shesaid is I love links journey in this
episode so much, and I thinkit's so important because sure, like on
(25:36):
paper, he was kind of onemight say, like the antagonist a little
bit in this storyline because he hada journey to take. But I think
his willingness to listen and adapt andchange is one of my favorite parts of
the episode. And I think Chrissold that so beautifully and he was also
just like such a safe space tolike for me as an actor as Zander
(25:57):
to be able to play this onscreen. So I loved Jamie touching on
links kind of kind of journey inthis episode because it's one of my favors.
Yeah, behind the scenes, wehad a very good time. Yeah,
always always, Well when you putthis episode out in Davia, you
had such a personal role in itand an acting role in it, did
(26:18):
it make you feel vulnerable? Wereyou? Absolutely? You know, because
as Jamie said earlier, you know, the gen next generation was kind of
told like fat is bad and thisand that. Even you know, I'm
a young millennial and even growing uplike you constantly hear that bigger people are
worthless or you shouldn't be fat,or fat is like you hear those same
(26:40):
things. And even though I thinkwe're better at saying like no, that's
ridiculous now, it's still in yourhead. So doing this story and putting
myself on camera to be exposed totalk about my fatness, which is not
something I typically do because it's justlike who I am, you know,
I just roll with it every day. But to kind of voluntarily put myself
(27:00):
under a microscope. Was very vulnerable, but I'm so glad I did it
because the amount of people who reachedout to me afterwards, just like not
being seen in that way on television, it made it all worth it.
Do you have a favorite episode,a favorite iteration of link in his Gray's
Journey? I'm sure I do.Evolved. I have to dig deep to
(27:26):
remember anything these days. I've gota five and a half year old and
another on the way, so literally, it's just it's blank space up here.
Forgive me. What's what's the mostchallenging part of I mean, because
you do this every week, butyou know, what's the how do you
keep attic is fresh? Well?I think the writers do a great job
of keeping Attic is fresh. Imean they're throwing new storylines at them every
(27:49):
day, and they really write theguest star medical parts very well, and
they cast them very well. We'regetting closer to the season finale right now,
and we've got some lovely guest starswho are acting with us who literally
you just look at you look attheir work and you're like, oh my,
what a gift that this is inthe same room as me. So
(28:10):
when that's coming at you on aweekly basis, or a new story every
couple of weeks. It's not toohard to stay fresh and find new sides.
This was a new side of Linkthe episode we're discussing right now.
Like we said his blind spot thatwell might not have been the most flattering
information about Link, it was newinformation and it's something that I take in
and I digest and I'm able tohelp Link grow as a character just by
(28:34):
playing those scenes and thinking about whatit means for him going forward. Jman,
how does it feel to be writingfor this is the longest running what's
all the alkalat about it? It'sthe longest running medical drama on network television.
It might have some other records,but I know that that one's for
sure, Like it just bdr anumber of episodes. So as a writer
(28:57):
who's creating the content to the lifelinefor it, Daddy keep giving out life,
you know, it is a challengebecause what is challenging is we have
now put every natural disaster that canpossibly occur in the city of Seattle.
I mean, Seattle seems very cursedif you'll only watch Grey's Anatomy. So
(29:19):
there are certainly big events and thingsand even certain kinds of surgeries and guests
and patients and cases that we'll bringup and I'll be like, no,
we already did that. Not wealready did that, not we already did
that. But the good and thesad news is that again, we have
a lot of new problems in theworld that we all live in, and
(29:41):
there are always different and new waysto face those problems. There's always different
and new ways to talk about thoseproblems, and I think those are very
inspiring. And again, you know, because we have a handful of our
original doctors and even the ones thatweren't on Season one have now been there
for a very long time. Youknow, their lives as characters grow and
(30:02):
change, they fall in love,out of love, they have children,
they make life changes. So it'slike anything, you know, where if
you're honest to life and to thesecharacters as they've already been on this journey,
you're going to find new places forthem to go. For me,
it's super fun because I mean,I bring in ten things every week that
(30:23):
they've done already before. But Ican keep guessing because I'm like, I
just got here. I don't know, I don't forget so listened for me,
it's all new. It maybe eighteenyears for a lot of people,
but for me, it's a realhonor. You're the freshman very much in
the group. Yeah, well,so how do you guys not think you
have one of these diseases or thingsevery week? I mean, how do
(30:47):
you deal with that? I couldn't. I can't even watch it. I
have to be like, it's notreal. It's not going to happen to
me. I mean that's a goodquestion for you guys too, because I
mean I'm not the one who's fakesurgically cutting anything open. I mean I
don't look at the monitors when thosescenes are being shot. So I'm pretty
squeamish, to be honest. Imean, what about you guys? Do
you freak out over that stuff?Sometimes it looks real real in the room
(31:14):
especially, you know, we havethose carterizing knives, right and oftentimes there's
literally a piece of meat in thecavity to make it look so real.
And when you're carterizing that thing,man, just the smoke comes up and
you smell it and you're like,oh, this is this is too real.
I'm not super squeamish of a person, but whenever you see it for
(31:34):
the first time, it can bea little like that looks Is this an
actual heart like it looks? Youknow, how do they teach you to
hold a scalpel, to cauterize towhat do you have to go through to
do it? Now? Well,you know, there's not a lot of
hand holding with Linda de Kleine ormedical supervisory. It's really it's baptism by
(31:56):
fire. She's great, and samewith Michael. The two of them really
walk us through stuff. But Imean when I came onto the show,
I was hanging around set the firstsurgery scene and I'm like, okay,
so what are we going to runthrough the medical stuff? You know,
I'm like asking people, when arewe going to run through the medical stuff?
Hey, Zion wants some time toshow me what we're gonna do with
the medical stuff. Literally, thelights are up. Can't we've slate?
(32:19):
We're practically slating. And Linda's like, all right, let me show what
we're gonna do and runs me throughit. And I'm supposed to I'm supposed
to know my lines, and ofcourse I'm used to it now and I
know what to expect. But thefirst couple of surgeries were a lot.
But then when there's something of avery specific skill like suitures or something that
(32:40):
they intend to show, really show, Michael will pull us into a back
room and really go through it specificallyand help us to get it. Well.
They don't close up on somebody else'shands. Suitoring No, Oh my
god, I didn't even know that. I remember the very first time in
echoing that Linda Decline and Michael Metchnerare the best, and the very first
(33:04):
time I got to suitor. I'malso just like Xavier, a perfectionist,
Like I just want to get thingscorrect and whatnot. When you're working television,
things just moved so fast. SoMichael had showed us we were suitoring
bananas and the skills laugh the residentswere so he showed us earlier in the
day and then we had our scenelater and I stayed for a bit and
practice because like I wanted it tolook how like it can't look like Xavier
(33:28):
who did this for ten minutes.So I was like, I'm getting this
suitor down. But yeah, sometimesyou just kind of have to pick up
the baton and run with it alittle bit. Well, and they do
have you know, A couple ofour regular actors are actual surgical nurses.
So Boky beloved fan favorite boy isa surgical nurse, so she'll yeah,
(33:49):
boys, she actually did a PSAfor the Creative Coalition. Yeah, she's
the real deal. So you've gotactual surgical support in there. I'm really
psyched. This is when I'm thrilledto be a writer and not on an
actor. Yeah, it's true.Actually, there's a lot of people in
the room that will throw helpful hintsat you too, because nobody wants to
see you do it wrong. Sosometimes you're in a taking between scenes and
(34:12):
one of the medical professionals who's assistingto the surgery will say, you know
what you know, you put yourfinger over here on the tool and rested
against your palm, relax your hand, and you go, okay, great,
thanks for the tip. Going forward, the brain question, where do
you see any of you guys?Where do you see grays going? What
are you going to tackle and solve? I look, I can't make any
(34:36):
promise one secret. Yeah. Look, all I can say is that the
show is always evolving. We alwaysfeel like there's room for bringing him the
perspectives of the different generations and wethink that we've had a lot of conversations
in the room this year about whatit means, and we've actually some of
(34:57):
them have really made it on screenin term of our whole residency program and
what it means to be a surgicalresident. It meant something very different when
it was Christina Yang and Meredith Grayand Alex krev and all those guys.
They are old gen you know,that was eighteen years ago, and what
does it mean to be a surgicalresident in twenty twenty two or twenty twenty
(35:21):
three. You know, how hasthat mindset changed and how do the institutions
need to catch up to that?And we've started that conversation with you know
a lot of the stories that we'vehad this season around Richard and Bailey and
burnout and Levi's experience and what ChristinaYang may or may not have done if
she were in Levi's position and rulebreaking and how does rule breaking change with
(35:45):
the generations. So I can tellyou this, I think that we're going
to be diving a lot more intothat. I think we want to see
more new perspectives from new surgical internsand what that experience is like now,
how the experience of medical school isdifferent than it was twenty years ago,
and then the experience of residency,and what does the generation inform us about
(36:07):
those things now? So I knowit's general question and it's not you know,
who are we killing? But it'sdefinitely who are you killing? I
mean, just just like offense.Well, I'll wait until Chris are off
of the no, but yes,I think that I can tell you there's
going to be a lot more aboutthat, so hopefully that we'll bring in
some new faces also, some youngnew faces that will represent that point of
(36:31):
view. So just quickly, Xavier, where do you want your character to
go? If you could write it? Well? Actually, you are right,
you are a writer, so youknow, I'm just so along for
the ride, you know, andwhere the Grace writers choose to take me.
I just want to see him continueto learn and grow, you know,
(36:52):
within his residency. And I'm verycurious like what specialty he would want
to do. And I'm very excitedto see Ander just like come into his
own as a surgeon, well asa writer actor. Does that make it
easier for you to be an actoror easier for you to write? Because
you know both sides of the camera, I wouldn't say easier, you know,
(37:15):
acting what I will say has bringme a better writer, for sure,
and vice versa, because I noticedafter I started acting more, whenever
I write an episode, you lookat it differently because I've had to break
it down as an actor, whichI had never really had to do before.
So now when I'm writing, I'mlike, oh, if I had
to say these lines, I wouldstruggle saying them because of this word,
(37:37):
you know. So it has informedmy experience as a writer and as an
actor, and I think it's tightenedto them both. And do you feel,
as someone who is gay, someonewho has obesity? What's the truth?
Here in Hollywood? We try,you know, we're always you know,
patting ourselves on the back that we'redoing a good job. Is diversity
(38:00):
winning? Are the good guys winning? That's a really good question. I
feel like our industry is absolutely movingin a direction of far more inclusion than
what existed twenty years ago, tenyears ago, even five years ago.
So I definitely think that we areon the uphill. And I think episodes
(38:21):
like this on grays and shows doingthe work and talking about these issues is
only going to deepen our industry interms of diversity, and I'm really excited
to see where we'll be in fiveyears and ten years and twenty years,
and I'm excited to be a partof it. Chris, if you could
write links next chapter? Do Isay Link or Atticus? That's fine.
(38:43):
Link, here's my link, yougo my link. It's okay if I
call you Link. What left turnwould you take for Link? Well,
I mean Links kind of at aninteresting fork in the road. I don't
know what left turn I would take, but he's at a fork in the
road. He's got a family withAmelia, and he's got a budding relationship
with Joe, who also has ayoung daughter, and I don't know where
(39:07):
i'd want him to end up thetruth be told, I don't think the
writers yet know where they want himto end up, but they're both good
options. The one thing I wouldlike is to see Link find someone,
because you know, being a singledad, I can't imagine. I'm thankfully
I'm married and have a family,and if I was doing it on my
own, I don't know. Idon't know what I would do. So
(39:28):
for Link, I want that isEpisodic TV still the place to be if
you're trying to have a family,it seems like it's so. Yeah,
it's still very hard. But I'mgrateful every day for a job where I
drive ninety percent of days to thesame location and film on the same sets,
(39:49):
within you a reasonable set of hours, even when you know, before
this, I was on the NashvilleTelevision show when we were in Nashville,
and there'd be a lot of nightsfilm until two or three in the morning,
and that can be really tough withkids, even tougher now. So,
yeah, this is a great jobto have a family on, which
is probably why there are a lotof families. What did Schandra say,
(40:12):
I've got a baby coming up.I think it's like the twenty third baby
that's been born during stretch of Gray's. So when you yourself go to the
doctor, you're taking your kids tothe doctor, do you feel like you
know more than you should? Hellno, Hell no. I pushed my
kid to the room, like,what's wrong. Last question, Xavier,
(40:34):
what would you tell to your fourteenyear old self, who I assume had
aspirations of writing and are acting.What's the advice that you'd give him?
You know, my fourteen year oldself was watching Grey's Anatomy and loving Grey's
Anaomy. I wanted to be awriter because of Grey's Anatomy, and I
don't think he would have ever thoughthe would actually be on the show.
(40:55):
So I would tell him just tokeep chasing his dreams, like absorb all
that he can absorb. Chase hisdreams into it unapologetically, is what I
would tell him. Chris, whatwould you tell your fourteen year old self?
Who? What would I tell myfourteen year old self? I would
tell him to temper his expectations.It can be a really fun wild ride,
(41:19):
but it's not going to be whatyou think it is. It's not
all glitz and glamour. It's aroll up your sleeves. You're gonna be
working and it's gonna be hard,and it'll be rewarding and you'll meet some
wonderful, wonderful people on the way, so at the end of the day,
it's worth it. But you're notgoing to be the next superhero,
you know. I am a fourteenyear old self saw myself as Spider Man
(41:40):
or Superman or something like that.I'm sure a lot of your fans think
of you as a superhero. Ohwell, thank you and thank you guys
both so much. And do youhave any more secrets that you do want
to tell? I'm tenacious, I'mnot fired yet, so I'm going to
keep it to myself. Yeah,thank you. Like having a job,
(42:05):
but I appreciate I appreciate you askingand asking again. You know, I
used to be a lobbyist to seeit. Thank you so much for being
part of this very epic episode.Yeah, I'm sure you've got a tremendous
amount of fan mail saying it broughtsomething to the forefront, which is that
(42:27):
magic that you have of doing well? Thank you very much. Thanks for
having us Ron, thank you forhaving us this lovely great me to you.
That was great. I have somany more questions, but I'm getting
the cane. Thanks to everyone fortuning in, and another big thank you
to Jamie, Chris and Xavier forjoining us giving us a little little inside
(42:50):
stuff. Come back next time whenwe have actor Tyler Labine from New Amsterdam.
He plays doctor Iggy from and he'llbe sitting down with us on the
Edge. We'll see you then.You've been listening to On the Edge,
a podcast series from the Creative Coalitionhosted by Creative Coalition CEO Robin Bronk.
(43:10):
For more information on how you canprotect funding for the arts and harness the
power of the arts to promote socialgood, visit us at the Creative Coalition
dot org.
This is On the Edge, apodcast series from the Creative Coalition featuring conversations
with an edge and chats with personalitiesfrom the world of entertainment. Now here's
your host, Creative Coalition CEO RobinBronk. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to On the Edge with the CreativeCoalition. I am so excited to welcome
(00:29):
some of the gang from the longestrunning primetime medical drama and ABC's longest running
current primetime show, Gray's Anatomy.Seriously, how many of y'all belly up
to Gray's Anatomy every week and startself diagnosing yourself? I'm not sure if
that's a plus or a minus eitherway. Today we get to have a
(00:54):
tapist of the brains and the talentbehind Grays. So in the hot seat
we have Chris Carmack, otherwise knownas doctor Atticus Lincoln. I don't know
whether it'll like him or not.He always seems like a really good person,
but well you can decide. XavierSennet, who's doctor Xander Paris,
(01:14):
and Grey's co executive producer and writerJamie Denbo. I am so excited to
fold back the curtain and expose themagic of Grey's Anatomy. So come on
in. So hi everyone, thisis our first multi voiced podcast, so
that's pretty exciting for us. It'slike having the first multi cam. I
(01:36):
guess in my world, in myworld up too much? No, no,
please do. In fact, ifyou want to take over, you'll
probably be much better than me.Am. I going to keep that in
the recording. We're not going toedit that out. The hot seat is
(01:57):
open. So I'm here with JamieDenbo, one of the writers from Grey's
Anatomy, Chris Carmack. But yourreal name is James Christopher in case anyone
is looking. And social security note, yes, please give us your social
security number. That's pretty much standardon the website. Yeah, ye,
standard operating procedure. We'll put itin the press release. And Xavier,
(02:21):
Hi and Chris and Xavier are twobeloved characters. I'm Grace. I love
you, guys. I love you? Is that weird? I love you?
Just got weird? Oh it's gonnaget weirder um And I'm just gonna
jump right in. Jamie wrote anepisode. It was season eighteen, episode
(02:46):
ten, Living in a House Divided, Grey's Anatomy. You have broken all
great records with your show. It'sall great boundaries, all great awards.
So this season, this episode wewere particularly interested in because you take on
this whispered whispered so we call itthe Last of the Shame and blames obesity.
(03:14):
Yes, and you know, I'mthe new kid on season eighteen.
I came into the show on seasoneighteen and having been a fan for a
very long time, and what wasreally exciting to me was how I've noticed
over the years the way that Grey'sAnatomy tells its stories authentically through those characters
(03:35):
that we all love, but managesto sneak in some awareness and some social
justice on occasion, but awareness ingeneral about things that, yeah, like
you say, are often whispered about, and what we try to do is
present them very factually and very evidencebased. You know, we as writers,
obviously most of us, although somepeople actually do have a medical background
(04:00):
in the writer's room, I amnot one of those people. I am
not a doctor, but I amsomeone who appreciates the daily emails that the
writers often get from our medical researchteam, where they will send us all
kinds of medical stories in the news, and you know, you'll get anything
from you know, a woman felloff the back of a jet ski and
(04:23):
the water blasted up her butt.To you know, stories about people facing
discrimination for all kinds of marginalized group, all kinds of marginalized groups facing discrimination
within the medical industry. So wealways have these ideas circulating in our brains,
and this particular issue was a passionfor one of our writers, Kylie
(04:44):
Donovan, who I have checked withand said that she said I could name
check her. She's someone that verymuch wanted to talk about this issue.
It's something that she herself has struggledwith as far as discrimination in the medical
industry, and so it was verymuch on her radar. But interestingly,
Kylie actually does double duty. Sheworks for Station nineteen, our Sisters Show
and Gray's Anatomy. And you know, it was already we were to episode
(05:08):
ten and the issue of obesity hadnot organically worked it way into our stories
that we were telling. I gotan episode where there was definitely space for
another medical story, and I said, I would like to talk about the
obesity issue. And there were alot of ways to come at it.
You know, we look at ourcharacters and we say who best to represent
(05:30):
to talk to, who are ourdoctors and who is the right patient?
And we looked at our doctors andwe just thought Chris and Xavier were really
good opportunities. Link and Zander arethe characters, and we thought they were
a great opportunity to tell some stories. Chris, So you play doctor doctor
Lincoln, right, that's right,So addicts Lincoln. Depends on how formal
(05:51):
you want to be. Well,I respect your white coat, your fantasy
whitecoat. So doctor Doc, yourcharacter? What resonated with you in this
episode? What resonated with you personallyanything or had you thought about it before?
(06:12):
Well? You know, unfortunately forme, the actor playing the character
of Link, it resonated like hewas in a way that I felt in
doctor's office myself before, where somebody'sa little too fast, a little too
Kurt and I wouldn't say Kurt,but but didn't examine the patient. And
sometimes you can sit there in aroom and feel like did I even talk
(06:32):
to the doctor? And I thinkin this episode, Link is that doctor.
And you know, sometimes we haveto play that role, especially when
it's about an issue that we wantto bring to light. So it resonated
a little bit like that you're adoctor also, you do like a lot
of athletic and isn't that it's allabout like the body and the athleticness of
(06:54):
might wrong on that, Oh yeah, I might get not a doctor and
me that did? I play oneon Dave. But I mean it's sort
of that respect for the body.I mean, I've an orthopedist, you
know, that's why you call it. I think for us in the writer's
room, it was like, who'sthe doctor that represents athleticism, not just
you know, in his actual physique, but also represents someone that deals a
(07:17):
lot with sports injuries. He dealsa lot with you know, maintaining health
and care of the body in away. That would be an interesting place
to start from when talking about theOBC issue because of the presumptions around obesity.
If you talk about your character andhow it fits into this episode and
what drives your character in the showin particular. Yeah, So Xander getting
(07:42):
to kind of be a part ofthe story was really special to me because
you know, I am a chunkygirl myself, and I was excited to
kind of have that represation played outon the show and during the episode for
Xander. You know, the episodestarts at this eminem or one of his
peers. Levi is kind of onthe stand because he had a patient that
he thought he could do more within surgery than he was actually capable of
(08:05):
and that patient ended up dying.And Xanders has seen his peer going through
this terrible loss and this really monumentalmoment in his career that's really dark,
and I think for Xander in thisepisode, he came out of that being
like, if I see something iswrong, I'm going to advocate for my
patient. Because if there had beenan advocate in the room when Levi was
doing surgery, that patient might havesurvived. So I feel like that's where
(08:28):
Xander's headspace was. So when Lilacomes in and, as Chris said,
Link is just kind of busy anddoing his doctor thing and kind of just
in and out, I think thatis a moment for Xander to be like,
hold on, I think there's morehere and I want to be an
advocate for my patient. And that'ssomething that's really special to me. In
the episode, you'll see that Jamiebeautifully crafted is like advocacy in a lot
(08:50):
of different ways, Like Xander isadvocating for Lilah and then later like Bailey
kind of advocates for Xander and backshim up, and it's a lot of
people supporting each other, and evenLink like eventually gets it, like he
sees it and he's willing to change, and it was all beautifully done,
Jamie. But I think that's whatwas my special for me, for Xanders,
that he got that moment to reallykind of rise up and advocate.
(09:11):
You know what was really exciting aboutyou know, First of all, I
want to also applaud Chris. Iknow it so it can be so hard
and awkward to like represent what mightbe thought of as sort of like a
awkwardly not cool point of view,you know what I mean, in what
is clearly like a story about someonedealing with discrimination of some kind. But
(09:33):
I do think that what we woundup having was also a representation. I
myself had to go through a learningcurve. I'm gen X all the way,
you know, and my generation wastaught fat bad, that is bad
and it's your fault. That wasthe message that was put out there.
It takes a lot of time,I think, and a lot of very
(09:54):
smart material information presented in a greatway to explain that's not true. Just
because you learned it when you werea kid doesn't mean that it was right,
even though the smart, fancy olderpeople told you that was the case.
And there's a lot of great informationout there. There's a podcast called
The Maintenance Phase, which is AubreyGordon and I forget the other host's name,
(10:16):
but it talks very much about obesityand diet culture as wrong, and
that conversation is only starting to happenin mass media. And I do feel
super proud that we could bring itto Gray's, even just in a little
bit, because I wanted to coverso much more. We only have forty
two minutes to tell these stories.But what we thought would be the most
(10:39):
impactful was to see someone from myold point of view putting Chris in that
role as someone who assumes that theweight is definitely contributing to the injury that
he's examining when it is not.You know, this presumption that losing weight
will always help, It's like,no, it won't. Sometimes it has
(11:01):
absolutely nothing to do. There areso many other things we wanted to say
that we just didn't have time forthat. You can be a big girl,
big boy, big kid, bigperson, and you might have a
better circulatory system than you know,a marathon runner. You know, we
wanted to talk about that, Wewanted to talk, but we felt like
this moment got the most bang forthe buck. There's still so much more
(11:24):
to tell. It's not antibody positivity, as Jamie sort of just alluded to.
It's not a shame and blame.So either Chris or a Xavier,
how did you? How did youyourselves? I mean, did you had
you thought about this before? Oryeah, well listen, we're all humans
(11:45):
walking around in these communities. Hadyou thought about this issue before and you
know, or maybe it hadn't.So we use the metric BMI in this
episode a lot, which is aflawed metric on many levels, which I
personally no because I have a lotof friends who are bodybuilders and their BMI
is, you know, off thecharts, and it's been used for so
(12:09):
long in the health industry and it'sit's like kind of grandfathered in as this
thing. I was reading up aboutit about how it's sort of entangled in
insurance rates and doctors have to fillit out to get Medicaid payments and all
kinds of stuff. So it's kindof like it's kind of stuck in there.
But it's this flawed metric, whichwhich of course I've thought about because
I'm kind of a muscular guy.I've lifted weights my whole life, and
(12:31):
I really edge on the edge ofBMI as well. So just from the
perspective of looking at it and going, yeah, that doesn't seem right,
I've thought about it, but it'snot something I've spent a lot of time
thinking about personally. Well, Iguess getting to say, if you're you
know, you said you have hadpersonal experience with this, and you do,
(12:52):
why did you want the audience,your audience and your fans to take
away from this? For me,it was I think most important that we
You know, you said something earlier. I can't remember exactly how you worded
it, but you said it's likethe last known offense type thing, and
I think, you know, obesityis something where if you're walking down the
(13:13):
street and someone says, you know, I can say this because I'm black
and gay, I'm all the things, but if someone says like a racial
slur, or someone says something homophobic, or someone being a misogynist, like
you can shout those things down andsociety is getting better about shouting those things
down, but obesit still seems tobe the thing where, whether it's a
macro or microaggression, a lot ofpeople are just like, well, you
(13:35):
know, like no one really shoutsit down. So I loved having an
opportunity in this episode to be likey'all the way that we talk in like
the discourse on people who are overweightor obese or have obesity. I love
that we were able to shout itdown, and that's kind of what was
important to me, and the takeawayfor people who go to the doctor,
(13:56):
and you know, I think weprobably all have been in a situation like
this. I know I have anappointment where I have a genuine concern and
the first thing a doctor will goto is, well, you should lose
some weight, like that scene withLincoln Lilah. I've had that exact moment
on more than I would need tohounds to count at least. And I
love putting out the message that like, no, you need to be stern
(14:18):
in your medical advocacy because oftentimes ithas nothing to do with the weight,
but that's just the first thing thatpeople see sometimes. So I love reinforcing
this idea that the weight has solittle to do with it a lot of
the time, and you really needto listen to your patient and your patient's
needs, Jamie. You must getpitched issues all the time. So where
(14:39):
do you guys get your ideas from? Is it ripped from the headlines?
Is it conversations? I mean yes, and yes, we definitely find that.
You know, we have a bigstoryline about military burn pits and the
effect it has on soldiers who,particularly in the Middle East, Iraq and
Afghanistan, are military coming home andhaving all kinds of respiratory illness. You
(15:01):
know, this was a huge passionfor one of our writers, so we
really wanted to talk about it.We are sort of you know, the
beauty of Grey's Anatomy is because itis such a diverse spectrum of characters with
such diverse backgrounds, we are almostable to organically find ways to connect them
to important stories when important stories areones that we want to tell. You
(15:26):
know, this was a no brainerbecause you know, Xavier, who's also
just such an insanely charming character anda fan favorite and has been nominated as
such in publications that I have seenrecently, and I forget which one,
but you know, to have himand to have a body type also that
represents this issue on a personal level. It just all made sense. So
(15:50):
we have so many moments like that. You know, we have military doctors,
so we knew that this was astory that we could tell about the
burn pits. We have a brainsurgeon, and we have Meredith Gray,
so telling our Parkinson's storyline. Youknow, all of these things very naturally
weave very well into the fabric that'salready there. That's sort of the beauty
of Shanda Rhimes created a spectrum ofhuman beings with all different experience. So
(16:15):
when we get these issues brought tous, either in that daily email,
which we still get, you knowthat talk about great anything from freaky medical
to a very important medical we allkind of mentally make notes about what we
connect to individually as writers. Andlike, I mean I chose that jet
Ski story, I was like,what water up the butt? I'm used
to be in comedy. That soundslike, well, I'm gonna want to
(16:37):
steal, so anything from that toreal things. I think it's really been.
It's such an honor for me tobe in this writer's room and to
get to experience that. I willsay, just as the new kid,
the old old new kid. Well, how did you switch what side of
your brain from comedy to medical drama? Oh well, listen, comedy people
(17:00):
are very dark individuals with a lotof drama. Yeah, exactly. It
was a natural progression. Yeah,kind of in some ways, this is
where I was meant to wind up. At first. I really did think
I was just there to like findnew ways to make testicles blow up in
the er. But I have beenI have been useful in other ways,
(17:21):
and I'm so honored I am totell a story like this with these really
really talented actors. Do take methrough, Take us through. When you're
writing an episode, what's the process? You know, the process in grades.
I'll try to keep it nice andshort, is such that before we
even start get anywhere in near production, before we start churning out those very
(17:42):
first scripts. And by the way, Xavier can speak to this as well,
because Xavier, I don't know ifyou know this, is also a
full time writer on Station nineteen,so he also can speak to the process
that we have in Christopher Enough roomswhere it's such that we spend a few
weeks thinking talking about the kinds oflong story that we want to tell for
these characters over a season, andthen ultimately, when we get breaking our
(18:07):
episodes individually and moving along, wereally try to find what part of each
of these long stories we can continueto tell, and then what are the
interesting beginning, middle end stories wecan fit into an individual episode that will
all help create a theme for eachepisode. And I know that sounds a
little vague and crazy, but ultimately, when you think about it, finding
(18:27):
themes for your episodes and helping youstay sort of those within that sort of
mental boundary helps you create really greatmoments for our characters within their point of
view that represent a theme. Oftenthey're reflected in the titles of the songs,
the name the episodes. For example, living in a House Divided the
(18:48):
episode that we were talking about,we knew that everybody was going to be
fighting about what Xavier was just talkingabout Levi's eminem. People are going to
have different points of view about whathe did or didn't do correctly in that
surgery, and people would be ateach other, And it felt like a
good opportunity to have a case whereI knew I wanted to talk about obesity.
(19:11):
But to have a case where twodoctors had very different points of view,
you know they would be divided onthis issue until Bailey comes in and
speaks the language that Chris's character linkcan really understand. No, BMI doesn't
work. It's there for the insurancecompanies and it is so it fit into
the theme very nicely. I hopethat sort of concisely helps you understand the
(19:33):
process. Yeah, I'm sure thateveryone listening wants to know how they can
pitch you, So that's what theycan always send ideas. Sure, who
knows, but go ahead a terribleinjury and get it in the news.
Yeah, don't do that, Chris, tell me about your audition for Atticus.
(19:55):
Well, Atticus came on as arecurring guest star role, so I
was kind of able to sneak inand we didn't know how long he was
going to be around. But towardsthe end of that first season him and
Amelia paired up, and then Ibecame a part of the show. So
it was originally not necessarily going tobe a long tenure, but I'm glad
it has become one. I've reallyenjoyed my time there. Well, how
(20:18):
did you become one with Atticus.How did you care for that? Well?
Do you share any traits any ofhis? Well? I do now.
I mean, you know, it'slike you've been on a series for
five years. You you know,the writers get to know you, they
get to know your voice, andyou know, they narrow it in more
(20:40):
on you. I would say thatI came to set with a little bit
of a more like sports bro kindof idea, and that's kind of how
it was written. But on dayone Christopherneff was there and she pulled me
to side and she's like, no, no, no, it's it's too
much. She pulled me back andbring the broad down. Yeah, bring
(21:02):
the rod down. But I haveto say I was done a favor by
Debbie Allen with the epic blow speedentrance in the fans, blowing the hair,
and I mean, you can't geta better entrance than that. You
pretty much have permission to do anythingafter that. Say here, what about
your audition? So wait, wereyou writing it? See? Were you
writing first or you were acting first? So I was an assistant when I
(21:26):
got the role. Okay, Somy journey, just the short version is
I started Grays the same season asChris in season fifteen, and I was
a writer's PA in the writer's roombecause you know, I wanted to do
a writer That's what I came outto Los Angeles to do. And my
second season, I was an executiveassistant for Andy Resart and Meg Marinas,
and I would just say quippy thingsaround the office, like you know,
(21:52):
whenever, like particularly the women wouldleave, I would tell them to have
a good night because their icons,which is something familiar if you watched the
show, and just like that.So Andy Reso, I think, was
just determined to kind of get acharacter inspired by me in an episode.
So he got written into an episode. And then we have writer's reats where
we read the script in the room, and then we have table rereads when
we read it with the cast.And I read that character for both and
(22:15):
he got laughed. And then finallyKrista and I think Andy had kind of
planted the seed, but Christa waslike, I think you should just play
him. So it was like reallycool, and I auditioned formally and I
got the role, and it wascool to kind of get this role that
was written and inspired by me,and then to actually get to play him,
which was just a thing that Inever expected to happen, and I
was supposed to be for an episode, and then because my characters had a
(22:38):
different hospital at the time, packNorth and then those hospitals merge, like
Catherine brought that hospital and then heshowed up again and it became a thing.
So it was like a really coollike I feel like I snuck in
the back door a little bit.We'll set you guys. You know,
you just drop into be the guestsand then you don't leave. As a
(22:59):
writer is you know, sometimes gueststars are sort of you know, there
to really help tell the series regularstories or the main character and those scenes.
You know, they're there to assistthe other actor on that journey.
And what happens over time is whenthese characters start to recur and then they
become regulars, and then you seethem it's like any friendship, right deep
in your understanding of this person,they become three dimensionalized. We want to
(23:23):
get to know about more, what'sgoing on, what makes them tick,
you know, what kind of motivationsdo they have in their personal life and
professional life. And so I thinkit's so interesting if you do look at
those first episodes where Zander appeared orwhere Link appeared, and how much more
we know? And also at apoint right now where Link is, you
(23:45):
know, we love him so muchas a character that we know we can
also give him this little blind spotand an episode like this and not fall
out of love with the character.If we brought in a doctor randomly to
have that confrontation with Xavier, wehate that guy, you know, but
we want someone like Link to showthat even these idealized, awesome doctors we
(24:07):
love can have their flaws. Andthere no one's going to fall out of
love with Link when he figures itout and apologizes for his mistake. So
it's been such a cool thing towatch all these characters grow. So how
do you determine what? Like?So these guys came on as guest rolls
and what do you do then sitin the writer's room or do you look
(24:30):
at numbers? I mean, how'sit all? I mean again, new
Kid On season eighteen, Fate andLove decided that these two would get more
FaceTime. Well before I got there, I might have had a very different
opinion. Who knows, But youknow, listen, I think it's very
clear that, like with my predecessorsmade very good decisions in keeping them around.
(24:52):
You were going to say something,It was, yeah, two things.
So I was going to say,you know, Xander's first episode were
in season sixteen, and I wasin two episodes that season, and then
I went to do the Disney Writer'sProgram, so I like left Gray's Anatomy,
and the point of that program isto place you on a show,
you know that's under the Disney umbrella. And I had worked for Christa,
(25:14):
so she called me back and shewas like, I'm putting you on Station
in eighteen as a writer. Thiswould be in season four of Station,
season seventeen of Grades, and shewas like, and I'm also you're going
to play more Xander, which wassuch a blessing. And with Link kind
of to Jamie's point of what shesaid is I love links journey in this
episode so much, and I thinkit's so important because sure, like on
(25:36):
paper, he was kind of onemight say, like the antagonist a little
bit in this storyline because he hada journey to take. But I think
his willingness to listen and adapt andchange is one of my favorite parts of
the episode. And I think Chrissold that so beautifully and he was also
just like such a safe space tolike for me as an actor as Zander
(25:57):
to be able to play this onscreen. So I loved Jamie touching on
links kind of kind of journey inthis episode because it's one of my favors.
Yeah, behind the scenes, wehad a very good time. Yeah,
always always, Well when you putthis episode out in Davia, you
had such a personal role in itand an acting role in it, did
(26:18):
it make you feel vulnerable? Wereyou? Absolutely? You know, because
as Jamie said earlier, you know, the gen next generation was kind of
told like fat is bad and thisand that. Even you know, I'm
a young millennial and even growing uplike you constantly hear that bigger people are
worthless or you shouldn't be fat,or fat is like you hear those same
(26:40):
things. And even though I thinkwe're better at saying like no, that's
ridiculous now, it's still in yourhead. So doing this story and putting
myself on camera to be exposed totalk about my fatness, which is not
something I typically do because it's justlike who I am, you know,
I just roll with it every day. But to kind of voluntarily put myself
(27:00):
under a microscope. Was very vulnerable, but I'm so glad I did it
because the amount of people who reachedout to me afterwards, just like not
being seen in that way on television, it made it all worth it.
Do you have a favorite episode,a favorite iteration of link in his Gray's
Journey? I'm sure I do.Evolved. I have to dig deep to
(27:26):
remember anything these days. I've gota five and a half year old and
another on the way, so literally, it's just it's blank space up here.
Forgive me. What's what's the mostchallenging part of I mean, because
you do this every week, butyou know, what's the how do you
keep attic is fresh? Well?I think the writers do a great job
of keeping Attic is fresh. Imean they're throwing new storylines at them every
(27:49):
day, and they really write theguest star medical parts very well, and
they cast them very well. We'regetting closer to the season finale right now,
and we've got some lovely guest starswho are acting with us who literally
you just look at you look attheir work and you're like, oh my,
what a gift that this is inthe same room as me. So
(28:10):
when that's coming at you on aweekly basis, or a new story every
couple of weeks. It's not toohard to stay fresh and find new sides.
This was a new side of Linkthe episode we're discussing right now.
Like we said his blind spot thatwell might not have been the most flattering
information about Link, it was newinformation and it's something that I take in
and I digest and I'm able tohelp Link grow as a character just by
(28:34):
playing those scenes and thinking about whatit means for him going forward. Jman,
how does it feel to be writingfor this is the longest running what's
all the alkalat about it? It'sthe longest running medical drama on network television.
It might have some other records,but I know that that one's for
sure, Like it just bdr anumber of episodes. So as a writer
(28:57):
who's creating the content to the lifelinefor it, Daddy keep giving out life,
you know, it is a challengebecause what is challenging is we have
now put every natural disaster that canpossibly occur in the city of Seattle.
I mean, Seattle seems very cursedif you'll only watch Grey's Anatomy. So
(29:19):
there are certainly big events and thingsand even certain kinds of surgeries and guests
and patients and cases that we'll bringup and I'll be like, no,
we already did that. Not wealready did that, not we already did
that. But the good and thesad news is that again, we have
a lot of new problems in theworld that we all live in, and
(29:41):
there are always different and new waysto face those problems. There's always different
and new ways to talk about thoseproblems, and I think those are very
inspiring. And again, you know, because we have a handful of our
original doctors and even the ones thatweren't on Season one have now been there
for a very long time. Youknow, their lives as characters grow and
(30:02):
change, they fall in love,out of love, they have children,
they make life changes. So it'slike anything, you know, where if
you're honest to life and to thesecharacters as they've already been on this journey,
you're going to find new places forthem to go. For me,
it's super fun because I mean,I bring in ten things every week that
(30:23):
they've done already before. But Ican keep guessing because I'm like, I
just got here. I don't know, I don't forget so listened for me,
it's all new. It maybe eighteenyears for a lot of people,
but for me, it's a realhonor. You're the freshman very much in
the group. Yeah, well,so how do you guys not think you
have one of these diseases or thingsevery week? I mean, how do
(30:47):
you deal with that? I couldn't. I can't even watch it. I
have to be like, it's notreal. It's not going to happen to
me. I mean that's a goodquestion for you guys too, because I
mean I'm not the one who's fakesurgically cutting anything open. I mean I
don't look at the monitors when thosescenes are being shot. So I'm pretty
squeamish, to be honest. Imean, what about you guys? Do
you freak out over that stuff?Sometimes it looks real real in the room
(31:14):
especially, you know, we havethose carterizing knives, right and oftentimes there's
literally a piece of meat in thecavity to make it look so real.
And when you're carterizing that thing,man, just the smoke comes up and
you smell it and you're like,oh, this is this is too real.
I'm not super squeamish of a person, but whenever you see it for
(31:34):
the first time, it can bea little like that looks Is this an
actual heart like it looks? Youknow, how do they teach you to
hold a scalpel, to cauterize towhat do you have to go through to
do it? Now? Well,you know, there's not a lot of
hand holding with Linda de Kleine ormedical supervisory. It's really it's baptism by
(31:56):
fire. She's great, and samewith Michael. The two of them really
walk us through stuff. But Imean when I came onto the show,
I was hanging around set the firstsurgery scene and I'm like, okay,
so what are we going to runthrough the medical stuff? You know,
I'm like asking people, when arewe going to run through the medical stuff?
Hey, Zion wants some time toshow me what we're gonna do with
the medical stuff. Literally, thelights are up. Can't we've slate?
(32:19):
We're practically slating. And Linda's like, all right, let me show what
we're gonna do and runs me throughit. And I'm supposed to I'm supposed
to know my lines, and ofcourse I'm used to it now and I
know what to expect. But thefirst couple of surgeries were a lot.
But then when there's something of avery specific skill like suitures or something that
(32:40):
they intend to show, really show, Michael will pull us into a back
room and really go through it specificallyand help us to get it. Well.
They don't close up on somebody else'shands. Suitoring No, Oh my
god, I didn't even know that. I remember the very first time in
echoing that Linda Decline and Michael Metchnerare the best, and the very first
(33:04):
time I got to suitor. I'malso just like Xavier, a perfectionist,
Like I just want to get thingscorrect and whatnot. When you're working television,
things just moved so fast. SoMichael had showed us we were suitoring
bananas and the skills laugh the residentswere so he showed us earlier in the
day and then we had our scenelater and I stayed for a bit and
practice because like I wanted it tolook how like it can't look like Xavier
(33:28):
who did this for ten minutes.So I was like, I'm getting this
suitor down. But yeah, sometimesyou just kind of have to pick up
the baton and run with it alittle bit. Well, and they do
have you know, A couple ofour regular actors are actual surgical nurses.
So Boky beloved fan favorite boy isa surgical nurse, so she'll yeah,
(33:49):
boys, she actually did a PSAfor the Creative Coalition. Yeah, she's
the real deal. So you've gotactual surgical support in there. I'm really
psyched. This is when I'm thrilledto be a writer and not on an
actor. Yeah, it's true.Actually, there's a lot of people in
the room that will throw helpful hintsat you too, because nobody wants to
see you do it wrong. Sosometimes you're in a taking between scenes and
(34:12):
one of the medical professionals who's assistingto the surgery will say, you know
what you know, you put yourfinger over here on the tool and rested
against your palm, relax your hand, and you go, okay, great,
thanks for the tip. Going forward, the brain question, where do
you see any of you guys?Where do you see grays going? What
are you going to tackle and solve? I look, I can't make any
(34:36):
promise one secret. Yeah. Look, all I can say is that the
show is always evolving. We alwaysfeel like there's room for bringing him the
perspectives of the different generations and wethink that we've had a lot of conversations
in the room this year about whatit means, and we've actually some of
(34:57):
them have really made it on screenin term of our whole residency program and
what it means to be a surgicalresident. It meant something very different when
it was Christina Yang and Meredith Grayand Alex krev and all those guys.
They are old gen you know,that was eighteen years ago, and what
does it mean to be a surgicalresident in twenty twenty two or twenty twenty
(35:21):
three. You know, how hasthat mindset changed and how do the institutions
need to catch up to that?And we've started that conversation with you know
a lot of the stories that we'vehad this season around Richard and Bailey and
burnout and Levi's experience and what ChristinaYang may or may not have done if
she were in Levi's position and rulebreaking and how does rule breaking change with
(35:45):
the generations. So I can tellyou this, I think that we're going
to be diving a lot more intothat. I think we want to see
more new perspectives from new surgical internsand what that experience is like now,
how the experience of medical school isdifferent than it was twenty years ago,
and then the experience of residency,and what does the generation inform us about
(36:07):
those things now? So I knowit's general question and it's not you know,
who are we killing? But it'sdefinitely who are you killing? I
mean, just just like offense.Well, I'll wait until Chris are off
of the no, but yes,I think that I can tell you there's
going to be a lot more aboutthat, so hopefully that we'll bring in
some new faces also, some youngnew faces that will represent that point of
(36:31):
view. So just quickly, Xavier, where do you want your character to
go? If you could write it? Well? Actually, you are right,
you are a writer, so youknow, I'm just so along for
the ride, you know, andwhere the Grace writers choose to take me.
I just want to see him continueto learn and grow, you know,
(36:52):
within his residency. And I'm verycurious like what specialty he would want
to do. And I'm very excitedto see Ander just like come into his
own as a surgeon, well asa writer actor. Does that make it
easier for you to be an actoror easier for you to write? Because
you know both sides of the camera, I wouldn't say easier, you know,
(37:15):
acting what I will say has bringme a better writer, for sure,
and vice versa, because I noticedafter I started acting more, whenever
I write an episode, you lookat it differently because I've had to break
it down as an actor, whichI had never really had to do before.
So now when I'm writing, I'mlike, oh, if I had
to say these lines, I wouldstruggle saying them because of this word,
(37:37):
you know. So it has informedmy experience as a writer and as an
actor, and I think it's tightenedto them both. And do you feel,
as someone who is gay, someonewho has obesity? What's the truth?
Here in Hollywood? We try,you know, we're always you know,
patting ourselves on the back that we'redoing a good job. Is diversity
(38:00):
winning? Are the good guys winning? That's a really good question. I
feel like our industry is absolutely movingin a direction of far more inclusion than
what existed twenty years ago, tenyears ago, even five years ago.
So I definitely think that we areon the uphill. And I think episodes
(38:21):
like this on grays and shows doingthe work and talking about these issues is
only going to deepen our industry interms of diversity, and I'm really excited
to see where we'll be in fiveyears and ten years and twenty years,
and I'm excited to be a partof it. Chris, if you could
write links next chapter? Do Isay Link or Atticus? That's fine.
(38:43):
Link, here's my link, yougo my link. It's okay if I
call you Link. What left turnwould you take for Link? Well,
I mean Links kind of at aninteresting fork in the road. I don't
know what left turn I would take, but he's at a fork in the
road. He's got a family withAmelia, and he's got a budding relationship
with Joe, who also has ayoung daughter, and I don't know where
(39:07):
i'd want him to end up thetruth be told, I don't think the
writers yet know where they want himto end up, but they're both good
options. The one thing I wouldlike is to see Link find someone,
because you know, being a singledad, I can't imagine. I'm thankfully
I'm married and have a family,and if I was doing it on my
own, I don't know. Idon't know what I would do. So
(39:28):
for Link, I want that isEpisodic TV still the place to be if
you're trying to have a family,it seems like it's so. Yeah,
it's still very hard. But I'mgrateful every day for a job where I
drive ninety percent of days to thesame location and film on the same sets,
(39:49):
within you a reasonable set of hours, even when you know, before
this, I was on the NashvilleTelevision show when we were in Nashville,
and there'd be a lot of nightsfilm until two or three in the morning,
and that can be really tough withkids, even tougher now. So,
yeah, this is a great jobto have a family on, which
is probably why there are a lotof families. What did Schandra say,
(40:12):
I've got a baby coming up.I think it's like the twenty third baby
that's been born during stretch of Gray's. So when you yourself go to the
doctor, you're taking your kids tothe doctor, do you feel like you
know more than you should? Hellno, Hell no. I pushed my
kid to the room, like,what's wrong. Last question, Xavier,
(40:34):
what would you tell to your fourteenyear old self, who I assume had
aspirations of writing and are acting.What's the advice that you'd give him?
You know, my fourteen year oldself was watching Grey's Anatomy and loving Grey's
Anaomy. I wanted to be awriter because of Grey's Anatomy, and I
don't think he would have ever thoughthe would actually be on the show.
(40:55):
So I would tell him just tokeep chasing his dreams, like absorb all
that he can absorb. Chase hisdreams into it unapologetically, is what I
would tell him. Chris, whatwould you tell your fourteen year old self?
Who? What would I tell myfourteen year old self? I would
tell him to temper his expectations.It can be a really fun wild ride,
(41:19):
but it's not going to be whatyou think it is. It's not
all glitz and glamour. It's aroll up your sleeves. You're gonna be
working and it's gonna be hard,and it'll be rewarding and you'll meet some
wonderful, wonderful people on the way, so at the end of the day,
it's worth it. But you're notgoing to be the next superhero,
you know. I am a fourteenyear old self saw myself as Spider Man
(41:40):
or Superman or something like that.I'm sure a lot of your fans think
of you as a superhero. Ohwell, thank you and thank you guys
both so much. And do youhave any more secrets that you do want
to tell? I'm tenacious, I'mnot fired yet, so I'm going to
keep it to myself. Yeah,thank you. Like having a job,
(42:05):
but I appreciate I appreciate you askingand asking again. You know, I
used to be a lobbyist to seeit. Thank you so much for being
part of this very epic episode.Yeah, I'm sure you've got a tremendous
amount of fan mail saying it broughtsomething to the forefront, which is that
(42:27):
magic that you have of doing well? Thank you very much. Thanks for
having us Ron, thank you forhaving us this lovely great me to you.
That was great. I have somany more questions, but I'm getting
the cane. Thanks to everyone fortuning in, and another big thank you
to Jamie, Chris and Xavier forjoining us giving us a little little inside
(42:50):
stuff. Come back next time whenwe have actor Tyler Labine from New Amsterdam.
He plays doctor Iggy from and he'llbe sitting down with us on the
Edge. We'll see you then.You've been listening to On the Edge,
a podcast series from the Creative Coalitionhosted by Creative Coalition CEO Robin Bronk.
(43:10):
For more information on how you canprotect funding for the arts and harness the
power of the arts to promote socialgood, visit us at the Creative Coalition
dot org.
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