Masonic Riders at a Crossroads - The Widows Sons in Florida

Journey into the leather-clad world of Masonic motorcycle culture as attorney and rider Chris Wadsworth shares the fascinating tale of the Widow's Sons' evolution in Florida. As president of the newly recognized Widow's Sons Masonic Riding Association, Wadsworth pulls back the curtain on a brotherhood at a crossroads, revealing how seemingly simple things like patches and paperwork can spark profound questions about Masonic identity.

The story begins in 1998 with a handful of brothers in an Illinois diner dreaming of combining their passion for motorcycles with their devotion to Freemasonry. From these humble origins sprouted an organization now spanning 92 countries and raising substantial sums for charity. But the path hasn't been without its bumps and detours, particularly in Florida where disagreements about Grand Lodge recognition and symbolic imagery led to a significant split within the brotherhood.

Wadsworth candidly discusses the tension between motorcycle culture's independent spirit and Masonic obligations, offering rare insight into how these seemingly contradictory values can coexist. Throughout the conversation, the true purpose of the organization shines through – raising money for worthy causes, supporting brothers in need, and creating visible ambassadors for Freemasonry in communities across the state.

What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of brotherhood beyond patches and politics. As Wadsworth puts it: "It's convenient to be a brother when it's easy. When you're a brother when it's inconvenient, that's when you know you have a true brother." Whether you ride or not, this episode offers valuable lessons about navigating change while honoring tradition in any Masonic organization.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
you've reached the internet's home for all things
masonry.
Join on the level podcast as weplumb the depths of our ancient
craft and try to unlock themysteries, dispel the fallacies
and utilize the teachings offreemasonry to unlock the
greatness within each of us.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I have you.
Now let's go.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, boys, girls, children of all ages,
welcome back to On the LevelPodcast.
My name is Matt Stone.
We are joined by Brother ChrisBurns here today.
I'm going to let him introduceour guest, but while I have you,
if you would please take asecond like comment, subscribe

(00:57):
all that kind of fun stuff,share the show, let everybody
know where we are so that waythis podcast can be used as a
tool here in the state ofFlorida to promote peace and
harmony.
So, brother Chris Burns, who dowe have on the show today?

Speaker 1 (01:10):
What's up, hey, Matt.
Good to see you man Been yournice button down today.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, I'm actually trying to snazz it up a little
bit there bud.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
I like that.
Okay, so today we have aspecial guest, very special
guest, chris Wadsworth andbrother.
I'm not sure what your officialtitle is.
What do we call you, president?
What's your official title?
El Jefe?
You just call me Chris.
I've gotten in trouble for notsaying titles, so if you can
tell me what title we call you,I'd really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
You may call me Chris or Captain my Captain.
There you go.
Oh, captain my Captain, callyou.
I'd really appreciate it, youmay call me chris, or captain,
my captain.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
There you go, captain my captain, captain, my captain
chris wadsworth.
So you are now the president ofthe newly recognized by the
grand lodge of florida widow'ssons.
Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (01:56):
that is correct wow, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
It's great to have you with us.
Thank you for coming on, uh.
So let's start out with likeyou, uh, a lot of brothers might
not know who you are in thestate of florida.
I know you're in the southeast,there in like the miami ish
area, so I'm sure everybodyknows you down there, sure?
So for the other brothers yeah,who's chris?

Speaker 3 (02:17):
yeah, no, I'm um.
I'm part of hibiscus, lodgenumber 27, 275.
I'm a Shriner, scottish Rite,york Rite.
You know, run down the list.
Oh, you pay all the dues.
I pay all the dues.
I'm an attorney down here.
I have a law firm in Miami withoffices in Palm Beach, broward

(02:38):
County, punta Gorda,jacksonville and New York County
, punta Gorda, jacksonville andNew York.
We have about 30 lawyers.
We me I have 30 lawyers andabout 50 support staff.
We've been practicing law for29 and a half years, going on 30
.
I'm a trial lawyer, so that'smy job is trying cases.
So I try between 10 to 15 casesa year.

(03:02):
The stuff you see on TV withthe juries and all that kind of
stuff.
It's all civil litigation.
But we do everything in civillitigation, from property to
defending against Morgan Morgan.
I'm sure everyone knows whatMorgan Morgan is right.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So that's what.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
I do All the people that Pillsbury Doughboy, if he
could stay away from the medicalmarijuana thing, that would be
just capital.
I would be totally okay withthat.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
He's a billionaire, just so you know.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, yes, yeah, I've heard.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
You're not a billionaire yet.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
No, the funny thing is is whenever he was running
for some sort of office orsomething like that and he had
to drive through Polk County andhe was like I dare Grady to
pull me over and Grady was likelet's do this, let's go.
Then he stopped at a bar overin North Lakeland and just
really showed his rear end.
It was a place called Boots andBuckles.
It was the funniest thing.
But I do have to ask if you'rean attorney and you're an actual

(03:54):
trial attorney, how many timesin court have you uttered the
phrase I want the truth andsomeone screams back you can't
handle it.
It's like for the free bird ofattorneys in my book.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
So the funny thing is I actually stay stuff like that
in floor dyers.
So, floor dyers, when you takea jury before I say, how many
people come in here and thinklike there's going to be a Perry
Mason moment, right, wheresomeone stands up and says, I
get it or you can't handle thetruth, and I go, it's not going
to happen, it's not going to belike that.
It's going to be boring.
Gonna be a lot more boring thanthat.

(04:25):
Yeah, yeah, stay awake, buddy.
Okay, just don't fall asleep.
You'll be waiting.
Exactly.
It's not gonna be like that, Ipromise you.
But anyway, um, so I, um, Ijoined the widow sons six years
ago.
That was a masonic writingassociation at the time and I am
president of the eastwardwriters chapter and have been
since 2020.
And then this new chapter ofthe Widow Sons.

(04:50):
That I think why I'm on thispodcast now.
That's it Well.
I can give you a history of theWidow Sons if you want.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I think that's a good place to start, because
our brother, matt Stone here, issomewhat new to the fraternity
and I'm sure he and others coulduse a little background on who
the Widow Sons are.
Now I know, before we get intothat, I'll say I'm not a Widow
Son, I've never been one.
I don't ride motorcycles.
Sure, when I became a MasterMason I didn't know anything

(05:20):
about masonry, right.
So I went through my EnteredApprentice and Fellow Craft
degree pretty normal anythingabout masonry, right.
So I went through my enteredapprentice and fellow craft
degree pretty normal.
Uh.
But the the morning of my mastermason degree I show up to the
lodge and there's like a hundredmotorcycles outside and I'm
like whoa, I'm double checking,am I in the right place?
And I walk in and it's all graybeards with rubber bands and

(05:40):
tattoos and leather and I'm likein my pants.
To be honest with you, I'mdefinitely in the wrong place.
And everybody was so welcoming,so kind.
Those guys did the majority ofthe work in the second half of
the degree, which was reallyimpressive.
My first introduction to thewidow's son was just shock and

(06:00):
awe.
I was totally impressed withhow scary you were on the
outside and how awesome and kindeverybody was on the inside
Right.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
So yeah, that's kind of the thing.
We're like the pole bearers formasonry, you know what I mean.
In other words, we're veryvisible, especially if we're
having a rally or we're allriding or whatever.
Very visible and the idea is toshine a good light on masonry.
And you know, motorcycles andblack vests always get the

(06:30):
media's attention, and I'll get.
I'll get into that in a minute,but I can give you the.
The brief history of the widowsons is back in 1998 in illinois
, a little diner, a guy namedcar Carl Davenport was with
probably four or five and I'msure someone will correct me and
tell me, no, it was six, Idon't, it was four or five guys,
they all ride motorcycles andthey were Masons.

(06:51):
And Carl said hey, man,wouldn't it be great if we
formed a Masonic ridingassociation?
Right?
So remember, up in Illinois,chicago area, that's where the
outlaws were born, that's theone percenters, the motorcycle
club, the bad guys like sons ofanarchy stuff, um, there's a lot

(07:12):
of motorcycle clubs up there.
So, uh, you know I can't climbinto carl's head and I've never
spoken to carl, but my thoughtwas, hey, let's set up a good
guy, you know motorcycle ridingassociation that are masonic.
So they decided to callthemselves the widow sons after
hiram Abiff.
So we're all master masons,we're all widow sons because of
Hiram Abiff people might notknow who outside of Freemasonry.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
I know not many people have heard the name Hiram
Abiff.
If you're not a mason andyou're listening, hiram Abiff is
kind of like the centralcharacter of our core degrees in
Freemasonry he's known as thebuilder.
He's known to be a widow sonHaramvith is kind of like the
central character of our coredegrees in Freemasonry.
He's known as the Builder.
He's known to be a Widow's Sonwho I think hails from

(07:57):
Naphtaliya, a tribe, and isknown as a Builder, and he was a
Tyrian person who was sent tohelp King Solomon build
Solomon's Temple.
So that's who you guys havechosen as your name, correct the
Widow Sons.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
And in the back of every vest or most vests you'll
see Hiram a bit.
You'll see a little patch atthe bottom.
I can go get my vest and showyou.
It says Hiram a bit.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
You know, I should have worn my who is James Mason
shirt Because it has the WidowSon logo on the back of it and
it was a widow's son who madethose shirts.
That was joe.
That was joe.
Joe shaw yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
So I love that guy so , with that aside, carl
davenport formed a rudimentaryweb page.
Um, I really never did muchwith it.
They rode together, but theydidn't get vests or any of that
other stuff right.
So then, in 1999, a guy namedarmando nunez, affectionately
called army, had the same idea.

(08:52):
You know, it's one of thosethings where you put something
out in the universe andeverybody has the same idea
around the same time yeaharmando lived in the tampa area
at the time in 1999 and he did aweb search and he found carl
davenport's group.
So then he talks to carl andcalls him up or whatever and uh,
turns out that carl never did abag patch or vest or things

(09:13):
like that.
So armando decided he was goingto do that.
So he did, and that's when hecame up with the elvira patch.
And yes, I'm going to text youwhere they got it from, if
you're okay with that and youcan maybe.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
That was part of, I think, the problem that the
Grandmaster had with the WidowSons.
He felt that this patch was alittle too provocative.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Shocker.
It's Elvira.
I don't even know what thepatch is and I can already tell
you it's Elvira.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
It's probably supposed to be a widow who is

(10:07):
grieving the loss of her husband, who is a mason, and trying to
figure out, uh, how she's goingto provide for herself and her
family.
Okay, so that was the idea.
Armando brings all the patchesup to Chicago to hand them over
to Carl Davenport, and there yougo, the Widow Sons are born

(10:30):
right, except this was yourprevious patch right.
Correct and I sent you theactual that bad via text.
I sent you the actual wherethey got it from Okay.
Where they got it from okay,because it's not that bad it's a
japanese anime and she'sactually in real life holding
that's it, holding a samuraibehind her head yeah and so they

(10:53):
they just kind of, you know,dumped it out.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
So this was the image that apparently the the late,
most worshipful coward felt wastoo much, right he didn't like
it, right, yes, anyway.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
So apparently the carl davenport group up in
illinois didn't really like thepatch very much either, and you
know, I don't know how long ittook.
But they said look at, we'renot going to use this patch,
we're going to go to thepyramided wings and you know the
working tools and all thisother stuff.
And army said, no, well, we'regoing to keep the, the widow.
So there was a loose agree, aloose agreement where the

(11:31):
southern states would have thewidow and the northern states
would have the pyramid of wings,fast forward I didn't know that
fast forward to today, andflorida is the only state with a
widow.
There were a couple of otherstates here and there that had
them, and then they phased themout and they all went to the
Pyramid Wing.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Give me an idea.
Florida was the last holdout.
We were the last one using that.
That's it, oh wow.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
The Widow Sons are in 92 countries.
Wow, 92 countries.
They all use the Pyramid Wing.
I want to say 40 states, 92countries.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's a huge organization now so they're all
using like this is your newpatch that we were showing.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Ours is ours is a little variation, so where we
have the hourglass, the sprigand the column, they have the
working tools.
That's the only difference.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Oh okay, so you just chose different symbols here,
right?
Was there a reason?
Did you guys have any meaningbehind?

Speaker 3 (12:27):
yeah, yeah.
So the guys that are muchsmarter in the esoteric um
masonry could probably tell youthe reason for those three
things better than I could.
I mean, I can tell you what theworking people are for.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
I'm very familiar with these symbols and what
they're in every lodge, rightthey?

Speaker 3 (12:44):
They're in every lodge.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, this is a symbol of human life.
So life and death, right.
This is a symbol of the broken,this is a broken column.
So this is symbolizing thebrokenness of man and the loss
of life.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
And the sprigification is Is obviously
eternal.
Yeah, so there you go,sprigification is obviously
eternal yeah.
So there you go.
They felt that the workingtools we already have it meet on
the level part upon the square,which is really the working
tools.
So that was the patch set wewent with and if you actually

(13:20):
count the feathers on the wings,the one on the left has 23
feathers.
The one on the right has 19feathers.
2319 is the w and s and widowsons, when you count in the
alphabet now we're doing masonry.
There you go, so you fastforward to today and you have
that many widow sons.

(13:40):
That was kind of the beginningof the Wittesons.
Back then Florida alwaysclaimed that we are the
originals because even thoughCarl Davenport had the idea in
98, he didn't do much with it.
Armie Nunez was the one whoreally kicked it off in 1999.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
In any event, it's a fairly new organization in 1999.
Fairly Freemasonry being over300 years old.
Yeah.
So you guys uh got into somestuff last year.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
I mean you went normal, things were going on
like what had happened was the,the widows son never submitted
paperwork to the grand lodge tobecome recognized and approved.
And it's in the digest that ifyou base your membership on
being a master Mason and I'llyou know, I'll backtrack a

(14:31):
little bit so when Army Nunezformed this organization, you
had to do two things you had tobe a master Mason and you had to
own a motorcycle.
Okay, those are the only tworequirements If you wanted to be
a what a son master Mason, owna motorcycle and you can ride
with us, right.
So the widow sons neversubmitted their paperwork to the

(14:54):
grand lodge to be acknowledgedand approved.
Never, not 1999 so does that?

Speaker 1 (14:59):
I mean running what?
What does that really mean?
That just means you aren'trecognized by the grand lodge.
I mean, you can still operateright without being recognized
by the grand lot, could, can'tyou?

Speaker 3 (15:11):
incorrect.
So if you read the right, ifyou read the digest and you are
premising your membership onbeing a master mason, that means
you have to be a master masonto be in the group and you're
not recognized by the GrandLodge, you cannot operate.
They can pull your dues card.
I mean you can operate, butyou're not going to be a master

(15:32):
mason anymore.
That's in the digest.
The reason behind that is youknow the Grand Lodge.
If you you know they're mastersand wardens shriners, you run
through it right.
They're all under the GrandLodge.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Right the Scottish Rite, the York Rite, High 12,
every single one of them.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
So the Wittesons had kind of been operating outside
the radar, but we would stillwork with the Grand Lodge hand
in hand.
We would present them honoraryvests every year to the
Grandmaster, george Eladra wasthe only one who refused to take
a vest, back in like 2012, youknow, 2013, all those guys took
them and obviously last year itwasn't done with uh, most

(16:11):
worshipful grandmaster doncowart rest his soul.
Um, most worshipful grandmasterdon cowart decided hey look, it
got like 73 organizations thatare operating, that you got to
be a master mason, but theyhaven't submitted their
paperwork to us.
So he issued decision numbertwo, which I'm sure you're
familiar with, and it reallyjust cited the doctor familiar

(16:32):
with it.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
This was the.
Uh.
I got a call from thegrandmaster on that one because
I I published that on our umdistrict group page, which I do
for every edict that I've everseen come out for any
grandmaster.
But that one was socontroversial that there were
people from out of state reallylaying into uh the the wisdom
behind that decision.

(16:53):
And so I got a call from thegrandmaster that said take it
down, I don't want it there,right?

Speaker 3 (16:58):
so I took it down so that was rough technically he's
accurate and correct, rightaccording to the digest, he
didn't say anything that wasincorrect or not.
So this was a year ago, whichit was, I think, mostly directed
to the Widow Sons, because wewere probably the largest
organization that had notsubmitted our paperwork.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Weren't you even mentioned?
Weren't the Widow Sonsspecifically called out?

Speaker 3 (17:23):
I don't think so.
Well, I don't recall, I don'tthink so.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
but well, I don't, I don't recall, I don't think so,
but it's very possible oh, maybeI'm thinking of the, because
there was another one thatinvolved what you can wear to
watch, and he specifically saidyou can't wear the patches of
the widow's son right the vest,or the widow's son right?

Speaker 3 (17:37):
so because we used to be able to wear a long sleeve
shirt with a tie in our vest andthe idea behind that was to
kind of you know other masons tobe like what are you got?
What is that?
You would say yeah oh yeah theygo, I ride motorcycles.
You'd be like great, come onover.
You know that's the idea, butanyway, it's a ton of money.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I mean, I know the two chapters I that were near me
.
They were always outfundraising all the lodges.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
They were always raising more money than we were
for charities I can tell youthat at the eastwood riders we
raised tens to twenty to thirtythousand dollars.
I mean a lot of money.
Uh, last year we handed outturkeys and boxes of food to
everyone at thanksgiving.
Uh, I mean, you know, wesupport the young marines.
We sent them to Hawaii on atrip.

(18:23):
You know what I mean?
Like, we, we do a lot.
That's masonry, right there.
So right.
So the idea when they firstformed the Widow Sons was hey,
fellowship and a good time.
But when you get a bunch ofMasons together, fellowship and
good time means raising moneyfor charity.
Cause that's how we have a goodtime, right, we go and we check

(18:56):
over for 10 grand and then wego to the bar and have a beer
and go.
Man, that was great.
So we became, I think, a fairlylarge organization that raises
a lot of money for charitiesyear.
We pay for it.
So, for the young kids I'm allabout kids, you know that's our
future.
Last year when, when that edictcame down, being a lawyer that I
am, I prepared all of thebylaws that needed to be
submitted to the grand lodge toget recognized and approved and

(19:17):
we had a meeting.
Um, and you can read it on thetransparency page.
You read it in my statement.
We had a meeting, but not allthe presidents were present at
the meeting, right?
So the way the widow sons works, or used to work, was you had
council of presidents, you had20 chapters, 20 presidents and

(19:37):
the presidents would vote onstuff, right, kind of like a
republic and it was just amajority is all that was needed
to pass things uh, twotwo-thirds so okay so we go to
this meeting but not all thepresidents are there.
Only some of them are there, andmy intent, along with a couple
of the other guys, was to say,hey, this is what we need to do.

(19:59):
We need to submit this.
I'm pretty confident, you know,I've been a lawyer a long time.
I'm going to be able to workthrough the red tape.
I'm you know, I'm gonna be ableto call them out and get it
done yeah so instead, whathappened?
the meeting went sideways andpeople were like, wow, I don't.
No, I'm from cuba and we had adictator before.
We don't want a dictator now.

(20:19):
And I try to say, look, ifyou're a mason, the most
worshipable grandmaster is adictator and he'll admit he is.
He may be a benevolent one, hemay be a good one, but what he
says goes and it's in ourobligation.
And I won't recite ourobligation, but I think we all
know right.
Do you sound in someone'sanedict, right?

(20:40):
So if you're a Mason, you'vealready got to be under the
Grand Lodge, whether it's be awidow, son or not.
So why not just play within therules?
No, I'm not.
He's not telling me what to doand that's not the way this
works.
We're free Mason.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
So, that was a motion motion, so we're running.
It sounds like.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
So what happened was they decided all right, we're
just going to sidestep it.
In our own internal bylaws,we're going to remove the
requirement that you're a mastermason.
We're going to make our rule.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Part of his edict was he gave you a certain amount of
time to admit, or you were notgoing to be a mason anymore.
Right?
That was what really angeredpeople, I think right or or
submit your paperwork, or submitthe paperwork right and as soon
as you submit your paperwork.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
To be honest with you , under the grand lodge rules,
as soon as you submit yourpaperwork, you're safe.
Even if he doesn't approve it,he kicks it back.
And you kick it back duringthat you're in the process,
right, like exactly, you're inthe process and therefore you're
safe, right, you're allowed tooperate.
And so they decided they wantedto remove everything in our
bylaws that required you to be amason, make our wives associate

(21:57):
.
And I did that for them, right,I'm a lawyer.
Hey, can you do that.
Sure, you know whatever.
So that was like what thetwo-thirds majority wanted
two-thirds majority at thatmeeting, which did not include
all of the presidents right, itwas okay gotcha not sure it was
two-thirds globally.
All of them right, right.
So went through, cleaned up thebylaws.

(22:20):
You don't have to be a masonanymore.
They created a board.
It's like on a transparencypage says they created a board
that's going to guard the westgate, which means you're not
going to be a widow son ifyou're not a master mason.
And this is the way it wasgoing to roll.
Don cowart wrote.
I'm not going to say god resthis soul every time, but you
know, don Cowart wrote a letterand asked what we had done to

(22:46):
come in compliance with decisionnumber two.
And I helped the president pen aletter.
Helped means I wrote it and hesigned it.
It's like any lawyer, right,like hey, can you help me do
this?
Yeah, you're right.
And then maybe you change thecomma or one word and basically
just said look, we're no longera Masonic Riding Association,

(23:07):
we're no different than you know, the American Legion or the VFW
or you know the Lions Club.
So you know that's what we did.
So he kind of just left usalone.
I think he was frustrated,probably, and I always thought
really that this was going to bea temporary move until Don

(23:27):
moved on right.
So the Most WorshipfulGrandmaster is only in power for
one year up.
He's very reasonable.
I know him, um, you know he.
He comes to my lodge quiteoften.
Uh, the guy behind him, andI'll screw up all the names of

(23:48):
these guys right up front.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
It's no distance right is behind him, and then
you got uh rick winley is amember of the low 12.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
So you know, talk about you got a friendly line
coming up that can really workwith you and help you and help
you get cemented in with thegrand lodge and not have to
worry anymore, right, becausethat's always the big concern.
Well, what you know, therethere was like all right, so you
get us approved.
What happens if the next guythat comes in wants to kick us
out?
I go, well, that's always thefear, right?

(24:17):
I mean, it happened in kansas.
They kicked out the scottish.
I mean, I'm sorry, the Shriners.
They kicked out the Shrinersbecause the Shriners started
letting non-Masons becomeShriners.
So the Grand Lodge of Kansaswent you're out.
And when I spoke to MostWorshipful Grandmaster Talley he
told me that he goes.

(24:37):
I don't understand he goes.
Obviously we have that power,but we only do that if you're
doing something un-Masonic ornot acting like a good Mason or
you know you break the rules insome manner.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
And that you know that happened.
I know here and there thingswould happen, things would get
posted online that maybe theydidn't like that happened while
there was like a Masonic logo orWidow's Sons logo in the shot.
A few little things like thathappened, but they didn't seem
to be.
That wasn't the norm.
It seemed like there were justa couple of problems here and

(25:10):
there.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
I can promise you the things that got posted that
upset people wouldn't upset you.
Normally there's three Widow'sSons at a bar with their vests
on and you can see them drinkingalcohol.
You're like right, yeah youknow or?

Speaker 2 (25:23):
you know, it kind of comes with the territory at that
point like how do you so?

Speaker 3 (25:27):
you know guy in daytona at bike fest is wearing
his vest and he gets a shot froma shot girl and she's wearing
you know negligee, not negligee,but you know, like fish like it
was provocative dress oh my god, that's horrible.
It's terrible.
But then know, I don't know ifyou ever been to the what's it?
The Knights of Arabia orwhatever, the belly dancers.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's not any more horrible than that to be honest,
I just go back to the shotglass girl.
It's like how dare females havea body and anatomy that
actually people enjoy looking at?
Some people are repulsed bythis.
What, how dare we?
Some people are repulsed bythis.
What, how dare we?

Speaker 1 (26:02):
It's a jealousy thing , it's like how did they get to
do that?
And I know I think it's more ofthat.
I see the point.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's because you're a 50-year-old male and nobody
wants to see you in lingerie.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
My guy I see the point, I don't disagree with him
Probably shouldn't have had thevest on.
We took care of it.
We reprimanded the guy.
He got suspended.
He's actually not a widows sonanymore and that's not why.
But you understand like, hey,you got to be careful, guys.
And and more importantly, don'tpost it on social media, you
know what I mean.
Like, because some people couldget the wrong idea, no matter

(26:34):
how ridiculous it is.
You know how it is, man, youcan do anything and 10 people
will like it, 100 people tellyou they didn't like it and
nobody understands why either.
Has that you?

Speaker 2 (26:44):
know opinion which, honestly, that actually brings
up a kind of a shift or a changethat I'm seeing within
Freemasonry is you're dealingwith a generation that had
nothing to do with the internetgrowing up, and I'm talking
about the older generations, butyou also have my generation,
the millennials, that we werethe ones that were told to
program the VCR and figure outhow to operate the internet.
You know, get off the phone soI can hop on the internet for a

(27:05):
few minutes.
So that's kind of the splitthat I'm seeing is you have a
lot of these guys that they wantto post things on social media
because it's just kind of whatwe do in the society today.
And then you have the olderguard.
That's like no, if you log intoFacebook, they automatically
have your social security number.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
It's like that's not the way it works so yeah, I'm,
I'm somewhere in the middle, I'mnot a millennial, I'm an xer
right on.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Same here, brother, same here.
We are the best generationalive right now.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
So you old freaking people.
That's right, we're not ruininganything.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
We're also not revolting.
We're like, just like, let's,let's chill everybody, let's
just let's be normal.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, you got to love those things on the internet.
We're like don't mess with GenXers man, they drink from garden
hoses.
They were told to come back atnight.
Tell them.
I was like, hey, between thetime from 2 pm to 3 pm I was
forced, almost at gunpoint, toget out of the house and they

(28:07):
were like why?

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I said because days of our lives were on and I dare
not interrupt days of our livesthat's funny.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
I mean, it was a different time, right.
Our parents never gave a secondthought to is my cook gonna get
kidnapped or raped?
Just didn matter.
It wasn't even a thing thatanyone thought about Summertime.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
you jumped on your bicycle at 8 am.
You didn't get home until 7 or8 at night literally, literally
for months.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
That would be how you rolled.
Your parents would be like youstill live here, right?
Yeah, I sleep here.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Let's put it that way .
It was funny.
My mom actually had a list ofhouses that she would call, so
she would call my buddy Justin'shouse.
If I wasn't there, I was overat Tim's house, she knew where I
was.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
It's just all right.
How many phone calls am I goingto make before I get to him?
So that's the generation I comefrom.
Fast forward.
Prior to Most WorshipGrandmaster Tali getting into
office, I had a lunch with thecurrent president of the old
Widow Sons, not the old WidowSons, I don't know what you call
them, the Elvira Widow Sons.
We'll call them that.
They're the original Widow Sonsin the state of Florida.

(29:13):
Currently they are, and I toldthem look, the council of
presidents, which also is a amistake.
They only meet once a year.
Okay, so that means you onlycommunicate with the other
chapters once a year in personin january.
A year is a long time not tohave a meeting or to discuss

(29:34):
stuff or issue or any of thatstuff.
Right now you can have aspecial zoom meeting, which no
offense to Zoom or this kind offorum.
When you got 20 guys on a Zoomconference, not a lot gets going
.
Everyone's talking over eachother, one guy can't walk on,
the other guy's screaming.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Somebody forgot to wear pants and stood up.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Oh yeah, and then it times out Somebody's going to be
eating peanuts and it justsounds like a horse chomping at
the bit.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
It's just awful.
So I already knew thetemperature in the Witte Sons.
The reason that is is, you know, I go to all the rallies, I do
a lot of riding.
I mean, if I don't put 20,000miles on a motorcycle in a year,
I was injured.
You know what I mean Because Iride a lot.
I'll give you an example.
I rode from Miami to Savannah,Then I rode 1,000 miles to raise

(30:26):
money for the Shriners with theIron Knights out of Georgia and
then I rode home.
So I had to ride to Savannah,then ride 1,000 miles and then
ride home and it was 3,000 milesin three days.
Then the following year I hadto do the exact same thing,
except we rode 1,200 miles andwe were up in South Carolina, so
then it was like 3,500 miles inthree days.

(30:46):
But anyway, point is I ride alot, so I'm out around these
guys a lot, and the temperaturewas.
They never wanted to submit thepaperwork to the Grand Lodge
because they really felt fearthat the next grandmaster would
cancel us, so to speak right somy problem with that is twofold.

(31:08):
Okay, number one I don't like tolie.
I I really don't, um, and Ifelt like the whole thing was a
lie.
Right, you're, you're, you'reriding around saying you're a
non-masonic writing association,but you know, really, you are
like, what are you going to doif the grandmaster pulls in one
of our members and asks do youhave to be a merit formation to

(31:33):
be a widow?
He's faced with two choices.
One he can violate hisobligation and lie.
Or two, he outs the entireorganization organization.
Neither one of those things isa good choice.
None of that's a good choice.
So wouldn't it be better tosupport our paperwork, get
approved, work with the grandlodge and act like masons and

(31:54):
not have to worry about gettingcanceled?

Speaker 1 (31:57):
I mean so there was a group of guys that were of that
, thinking of like, hey, let'sjust follow the rules here and
let's like get this thing doneand let's get back into masonry.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
There's many that were very upset with the move to
get away from masonry, so tospeak.
Now remember what I told youthat in order to be a widow son,
the first thing you have to beis a master Mason, and then you
have to have a motorcycle.
So if you just removed therequirement that you're a master
Mason from your bylaws, youcan't be a widow's son, right,

(32:31):
you can't, it's a problem in anyevent.
So when I had this meeting thislunch with the president, I
said look at, what I'm going todo is when Tali gets into office
, I'm going to get us approved.
I'm not going to go to the COP,then we can bring it to the
what's the COP.

(32:52):
Council of Presidents.
Sorry, that's.
That's the Florida, that's aFlorida term right.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Does Florida answer outside of Florida?

Speaker 3 (33:00):
I'll get to that in a minute.
We're all independent.
Okay, my point was, if we bringit to the council before
they're going to vote, not tosubmit the paperwork, because I
know a few very outspoken thatsteer the entire group that are
against it, and I know that fromall year round hearing them oh,
we're never doing that, oh,that's never going to happen.

(33:21):
And these guys are the onesthat once they say something,
everyone just follows along.
I said but if I do this, thenwe can give them a real choice.
It's not a hypothetical right,because the argument is going to
be well, they're never going toapprove us, it's going to take
six months to approve us.
You know it's never going tohappen.
But ago we could either be aMasonic Riding Association
because I have us pre-approved,or not.

(33:42):
Choose.
That was the intent.
That was the intent and insteadthis happened.
So I will say in the president'sdefense, he probably didn't
realize I would do it as quickly, efficiently and effectively as
I did.
Right, I've got text messagessaying I'm talking to Tali, I'm

(34:03):
smoothing things over with Tali.
All true, I spent two hours onthe phone with most worshipful
grandmaster Tali.
He's a great guy, he's like Iwant to work with you guys.
I think it's amazing.
I want you to work with thegrand lodge, I want to work
charities with you.
I said, hey, wouldn't it begreat if we rode like an honor
guard and escorted you placesand did things like that?
He said that would be amazing.
You know what I mean.
Like that's what you'resupposed to do when you're when

(34:25):
you're a messiah writingassociate.
Imagine, you know, leadingtolly to his next gmov or
whatever.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
That would be amazing get the news to paying
attention to free masonry alittle bit right and you know
I've been on the news now threeor four times with the widow
sons.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
One we were raising money and bringing stuff over to
the bahamas.
One we're handing out turkeys.
I mean the news eats this stuffup.
They love it they love it.
So in any event, in his defense,I don't think I ever told him
explicitly I'm handing in thepaperwork.
I kept saying I'm talking totolly, I'm doing, doing this,
I'm doing that.

(34:59):
And Tali kept going look, thisis what you need to do, do this,
do that.
And you know he was such agentleman and such a good
brother and counseled us and youknow it was all going along
great.
And I got text messages where Isaid to the president hey,
pretty soon our guys are goingto need to make a choice.
And this was because I knewTali was going to possibly sign

(35:29):
the paperwork, but not for likethree weeks right and he says I
hear you, you know, so obviouslyyou know you're communicating,
you are.
I'm gonna be clear.
I didn't say, hey, I submittedour paperwork right.
I, kind of ego wise, I wantedit to be kind of like a surprise
, you know, like hey man, lookwhat I did isn't this great.
You know what I mean.
Like I swear to god, like isn'tthis great?
Look, I got it done and, andyou know so, I said hey, I'm
smoothing things over with mostworship grandmaster tolly, I'm

(35:50):
smoothing things over at thegrandmaster.
He goes oh great, you know, um,I'm gonna get it done, blah,
blah, blah, that kind of stuff,um, and the text messages are in
between conversations and if mywife was here, she just walked
in when they accused me of nottelling them.
She's like that's bs.
I heard you talking on thephone.
You were talking about thephone and you told him I go, I

(36:11):
know, but I'm not going to geton the internet and go tit for
tat.
Yeah, you did.
No, you didn't.
Yeah, you did.
I think really the currentpresident, he's more of a wait
and see kind of guy, right, hedoesn't necessarily go in.
So I think he was just kind ofwaiting and seeing and maybe he
thought it would take longer.
But you know, I'm the guy andyou probably know this, chris,

(36:32):
if you text me, I text you rightback.
I don't wait.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah.
So I was like, hey, chris, whattime, how early can you?
And he said, let's do it.
It's what time?
How early can you?
And he said, uh, let's do it atsix in the morning.
And I was like, oh, oh, you're,you're like you're one of those
I knew you were militaryimmediately when you said let's
record it.
Six in the morning and I wentto matt and I was like matt, can
you get?

Speaker 2 (36:55):
and he was like no, so the funny thing about that is
, I don't know why, but for someodd reason and just kind of no,
not at 60.
Highly upset to the point whereshe reprimanded me at lunch dad
, you can't leave for work untilI tell you bye, don't do that

(37:24):
again.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
Oh my she's gonna make a great wife to some man I
have an 11 year old, but he usedto be like that.
You can't leave without sayinggoodbye to me yep, and honestly
it's adorable.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
But it's kind of like a cats in the cradle moment
where it's like I really feelbad for, you know, being at work
and traveling for masonry and Itravel out of state for
different stuff and it's like Idon't get to see my daughter as
much as I want to.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
But this is kind of the life we're called to, right,
right and then I have the sameissue because I try to
incorporate my son into almostall of my widow son's activities
and my wife hates it becauseI'll make her drive him to
wherever I'm going and thenhe'll hang out with me and
sometimes he'll'll ride on themotorcycle, but some of these
rides are long, right, and he's11, you know he's got the
attention span, so they'll ridein the car and I'll find things

(38:08):
for him to do.
You know, I went to the GrandGathering in Chicago.
They flew out to Chicagotogether, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
Because, of that.

Speaker 3 (38:16):
I feel like I'm away from him too long.
You know what I mean.
I had him late in life,obviously because I'm old and
he's 11, so I gotta spend timewith him.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
so so actually this this brings up a question, and
now that you've kind of givenlike a 30 000 foot overview of
the situation, this kind ofbrings up a question is I'm
familiar with other appendantbodies and I use quotation
fingers on that for thoselistening on audio I'm aware of
other masonic appendant bodiesthat intentionally do not seek
the recognition of the GrandLodge of Florida.

(38:45):
So in that aspect I could kindof see why the other brothers
that split off and did their ownthing, or however you want to
look at it.
But either way, the group thatis not recognized by the Grand
Lodge of Florida, I totally seetheir side of it of they don't
want to bend the knee when theperson who's in charge for a
year could potentially be atyrannical dictator and I'm not

(39:06):
saying that anybody was, butthat very well could possibly
happen Because Wittesons is anextension of your fraternity.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
So you're a Mason, you can be a Wittesons.
Wittesons is an extension ofthat.
You can be a widow's son.
Widow's sons is an extension ofthat.
So if you're not a Mason, youcan't be a widow's son.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Right.
So this is where I guess someof the confusion was at, because
my wife started.
My wife picked up on thiswidow's son stuff and started
asking me about it and I'm likeI have no idea, like how did you
figure this out?
So my wife started asking meabout it and she's like, well,
it's an appendant body, doesn'thave?
It isn't directly controlled bythe Grand Lodge, correct?
I'm like no, the Grand Lodgeactually has authority if the

(39:46):
people in it are supposed to bemaster masons, because that is
in our obligation that we'regoing to be doing this.
At the same time, I understandthe Hesitance.
Yeah, no, not hesitance, nothesitant.
I understand kind of the, themythos of motorcycle riders
associations, where they don'tlike they're very anti-authority

(40:06):
and they're very quick to flipthe bird to any anybody who
would exhibit authority overthem.
So kind of, walk us through themasonic obligation and how you
balance those two out.
You have the, the flavor ofmasonic riders or sorry,
motorcycle riders associations,and then you also have a masonic
obligation which might be inconflict with that right, so
you're correct, right.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Guys who ride motorcycles and background I've
been riding motorcycles for 33years.
Um, I've ridden with theoutlaws, I've ridden with the
pagans, I've ridden with all notnot patched, just so you know I
was never an mc, but they'refriends and I would ride with
them.
And you know I was always anindependent guy.
Um, that that said, you'recorrect.

(40:45):
So guys who ride motorcyclesthat are bikers not just masons
that own motorcycles, but bikersum, really hate it when there's
someone who has authority overthem.
Right, but you know, we live insociety.
Everyone has authority over us.
Right, you go through a redlight, you're gonna get pulled
over.
Guess what?
You has authority over us.
Right, you go through a redlight, you're going to get
pulled over.
Guess what.
You've got authority over you.
You get arrested.

(41:06):
You go in front of the judge.
Guess what he's got authorityover you.
So in masonry we all decided tobecome masons and when we took
our obligations, we agreed andacknowledged and accepted that
the most worshipful grandmasterhas ultimate authority over us
as it relates to the fraternity.

(41:27):
We will obey all due signs,summonses.
I'm sure I'm not getting itcorrect.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Which is probably a good idea Edicts, whatever.
So now, as a widow's son,you're not technically really an
appendant body.
We haven't been given appendantbody status.
I don't think.
I'm not sure how you do that,if it can be done, but when's
the last time you saw the mostworship grandmaster walk into
the shrine and tell them how torun things?

(41:54):
Never Walk into the temple andtell them how to run things.
But my point is it's rare.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
You're right, they try to.
They're not there to try tocause problems.
For the most part they're thereto just try to coordinate and
think about it.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
He's got 30 000 masons.
Does he really want to run myorganization as well?
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
No so the whole point .
I guess it depends on thecharacter archetype that you
have sitting in the grandmasterseat, sure?

Speaker 3 (42:21):
but he, he can't possibly control them all.
It would be too much work, tobe honest with you, really.
I mean, the guy would have towork 24 hours a day and even
then he wouldn't be able to doit because there's so many
different human beings.
That said, his main goal reallyis to just make sure we're all
acting like masons.
And if you're all acting likemasons, you're fine.
If you actually handle your ownstuff and let him know hey, we

(42:46):
saw this, we're handling it,that's fine.
I promise you, that's all theywant.
They want to know that it'sbeing handled.
So if a schweiner gets out ofline and does something crazy,
you know he's whatever.
He's going to want to hear fromthat potentate that says hey,
we got this, we're handlingright and you don't need to.
Um, in our.
In my opinion, if someone whowidowsons did something that

(43:09):
egregious, they're probablygoing to be brought up on
masonic charges because that'sthat's the thing.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Like, you belong to a particular lodge, which means
you answer to the worshipfulmaster.
He can summon, he can order youright.
He has control over you.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
So my point is if you don't want to be a Masonic
Riding Association, if you don'twant to be an extension of your
fraternity, there are plenty ofmotorcycle riding associations
out there, right?
In fact, the current originalWidow Sons are a motorcycle
riding association.
They're not Masonic and easy.
Go on Sun Biz and look at it.
We are the Widow Sons MasonicRiding Association of Florida.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
They are the Widow Sons Motorcycle Riding
Association of Florida right,okay, so there are now two Widow
Sons officially, although theyhave slightly different names,
and one is affiliated withmasonry and one is not correct
however, the one that's notaffiliated with masonry would
say they are affiliated, but youknow, on the down low um, how

(44:08):
can they make that argument when, uh, they're not?

Speaker 2 (44:14):
I mean well, it's pretty, it's pretty easy to make
the argument whenever you're,whenever you're talking about
your intent behind the argumentof my intention is for this to
be a masonic riders association,but, and then we can get into
the fact that they don't havebeen the need of grand lodge
there is in their mind, and I'mI'm not taking one side or the
other here.
I hope y'all guys don't likethat, but I'm trying to break

(44:37):
down the argument of trying tosee the both sides of here.
We go three, two, one fight.
So so I'm just trying to breakdown the argument, because it
seems like you do have thesegroup of brothers that they are
considering themselves masonic,although they are not officially
labeled as masonic.

(44:58):
But who cares if you'reofficially labeled as masonic or
not, because I don't want tobend the knee to grand lodge
anyway.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
So so I totally see that aspect and I also you have
to be disingenuous, then youhave to be disingenuous.
You have to be, you have to.
There's no way around it.
They were all Masons.
Well, now you got 4701, 4702and and 4703 to contend with in
the digest, yeah, so you got togo.
We're not Masons.
Oh, okay, you're not Masons.

(45:25):
Well, you know.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Okay.
So yeah, okay, I see thatargument, and then I also see
your.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
I want to beat this dog.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
No, no, no.
And I also see your side of itand your side of it within the
lines here.
This isn't that big of a deal.
So so kind of walk us throughkind of your intention behind
forming or, I should say,playing nice with the grand
lodge.
I mean, is this in directcompetition with with the other
group of the widow's sons?
I mean, what's going on here?

Speaker 3 (45:51):
My intent was this submit the paperwork.
I submitted it as the statepresident because you have to.
The state president of thegroup that you're intending that
get recognized and approved hasto sign the paperwork.
Tyrian riders just did it backin january.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Low 12 did it many years ago right, in fact, um
first of his name was uh, wasthe uh founder of the low 12.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
So I submitted it and , quite frankly, it's a
placeholder, right if you're?
If you're a lawyer or anybodylike that, you know I could
switch a president out in fiveseconds.
I honestly, god can't.
And I formed the FloridaCorporation because it's a 5013C
and you have to have a corp andI did it.
I could change that right now,talking to you, without you even

(46:40):
knowing it.
It'll take me two seconds.
So it was all done as aplaceholder to have this entity
created and you notice the namesare very similar, in fact the
initials are exactly the same tobe able to present it to the
craft and say, look, we now canbe Masonic.
Who wants to be Masonic?
And then if if everyone saidthey didn't want to be Masonic,

(47:08):
then I would be faced witheither just shit can't well,
we're on a podcast, right, and Ijust said the word shit can't,
that's a military term.
I could shit can the new thingI created and stay with the
widow sons, or I could changethe name or I could keep the
name.
The reason I can keep the nameis the name Witta Sons refers to
all Masons number one, numbertwo there is no ownership
interest in that name.

(47:28):
It's been out in the publicdomain too long for there to be
any ownership interest in it, sono one can trademark it,
copyright it or anything else.
There are past examples wherewe've had more than one Witta
Sons organization within thesame state Louisiana's one, in
fact.
In Florida we had two at onepoint for a very brief period of
time.
So one of the reasons why youwant the Wittesons name is

(47:51):
because, although they're allindependent states, in other
words, florida doesn't answer toAlabama, alabama doesn't answer
to Florida.
You know what I mean.
We're all independent,widowsons are all independent.
They're not really one giantgroup, it's little groups.
All mean the same thing becausethey have a lot of rallies and
stuff and they'll be opened onlyto widowsons, right.

(48:11):
And it's really cool to ride outto Oklahoma or Chicago and go
to a giant rally filled withliterally 2,000 masons from
across the world.
I don't mean the country, Imean the world and meeting all
these guys.
And you know, I've got friendsin Mexico, I got friends in
Canada, I got friends inArgentina, I got, you know, I
mean everywhere.

(48:32):
I got guys text me fromArgentina.
Hey, we're going to be in Miami, can you help us out?
Yeah, man, what do you need?
You need a motorcycle, yourmotorcycle.
What do you?
You know, let's go and it'sgreat.
So that's really so like thetyrian riders can't go to a
widowson event in chicagobecause they're the tyrian
riders and it's open towidowsons only, right.
So that's the benefit of havingthe widowsons name.

(48:52):
Now we may get blackballed fromall these things because what's
happening in florida?
Until the dust settles, right?
There's a lot of positivethings that were written, but
there's also a lot of negativethings, because people don't
understand, right, a lot of mystatement.
I said my intent was not tohijack the Wittesons, right?
And then everyone started usingthe word hijack.
I'm like, yeah, you thoughtthat up yourself.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
So it almost seems like you and I operate very
similarly.
So it's not the exact samescenario, but I've had it before
where it's like all right, Ihave a craft that I have to
present this to, so I do allthis work on the front end and
then present it to the craft.
So it almost seems like that'swhat you were doing of.
Hey, I've already done all theheavy lifting of every single

(49:34):
bit of this.
Now it's up to you guys, if youwant it or not.
And guess what, if you don'twant it, I can dissolve it with
a click of a button.
It's that fast.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Literally 100%.
That's what it is.
So you know that's where we'reat.
Instead, it went over, like,you know, a lead balloon or a
fart in church, whichever oneyou prefer, whichever metaphor,
and everyone's like you'retrying to steal the Widow Sons.
I'm not trying to steal theWidow Sons, but just so you know
, the guys that are with us areall Widow Sons branded.

(50:03):
Widow Sons Branding is a degreethat's given within the Widow
Sons.
These guys, you know there's atleast 50 to 100, probably 100
people.
What gives the other 100 guysthat we left behind the right to
use the name but not us?
I've got 40 members in mychapter alone.
Anchor and Arc has 11 members,so now you're up to 51.

(50:27):
Hiram's Wheels got 20 members,now you're up to 71.
Island Knights has 10 or 15, no, 17 members.
You start doing the numbers.
You're like that's a lot ofguys, and how come the other
group gets to use the widow sonname but we don't?
Um, you know what I mean.
Like we've earned the name justas much as they have.

(50:47):
I've given.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
I mean honestly, you're the only one rightfully
that should be using the namebecause it is a Masonic writing.
The widow's son is a Masonicreference, so correct.
Yeah, I mean those guys thatI've chosen not to, and I
understand where they're comingfrom.
Trust me, I was also persecutedthat last year and also had

(51:10):
very negative feelings about howthat was being done, and I
understand their frustration.
But we are Masons.
First, correct, we need tofollow our obligation, which is
let's do it the right way, let'sget everything lined up, let's
get our paperwork done, let'sget approved, which you've done.
So really, there's no choice inmy mind.
Even if I was a disgruntledwith the Grand Lodge guy from

(51:33):
before, I would still want to beMasonic and I always try to do
the right thing by masonry as aman, and I'm sure you guys do
too.
That was our mantra was yourmason choice here.
Like I need to be a member ofthe one that's recognized.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
That's it so our mantra when I joined was you're
a mason first, the witness onsecond.
Keep that in mind, right,always, always act like a mason,
okay, well?

Speaker 2 (51:57):
and even still to kind of build on this and burns
you and I have talked about thisquite a bit is that if your
perception of authority is thatyou know if the wrong, if the
opposite party is in there andyou're just absolutely terrified
about that, then that authorityhas too much authority.
You know and I'm talking aboutthe president of the United
States specifically If it freaksyou out that the other side won

(52:17):
for the next four years, thenthat position holds too much
weight.
So in that, if the widow's sonswho are now not recognized by
the grand lodge of florida, ifthat is a concern for you, that
you don't want to bend the kneeto somebody who you think could
be tyrannical, you could veryeasily draft legislation in
order to kind of shackle thegrandmaster seat a little bit or
put a little bit more checksand balances in.

(52:38):
So this is a war that can bewon.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
But it has to be a long-term ordeal and you need to
be doing it.
You can't change that from theoutside.
You can only change it from theinside.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
So my intent, most worshipful Grandmaster Talley's
intent, was hopefully thateveryone would come over and we
could merge them.
And he told me look at thistime next year I hope you have
100 chapters.
He wants us to grow.
He wants us because it helpsmasonry, it shines a light on
masonry.
We're the pole bearers formasonry.
We raise a lot of money wecould help, we can help the

(53:10):
masonic home.
I want to say, um, the the firstlady's charity this year is the
third floor of the mic Home tobuild a rehab facility.
We're going to raise a bunch ofmoney for that, to help that,
because I think that's a greatcause right for all the people
in the Masonic Home and that's afar cry from what I was
understanding was happening lastyear.
So you know what I mean.

(53:31):
Like that's the intent.
We really want to bring themtogether.
And you know, maybe my deliverywas wrong or bad, I don't know.
You know I'm prettystraightforward.
I'm not good at sugarcoatingstuff, I'm not good at finessing
I'm.
You tell me to do something, Ican do it and I get it done, uh,
usually pretty fast,efficiently and effectively.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
So and you did.
You're now recognized by thegrand lodge of florida, you know
, officially back as a masonicwriters association and you have
members right.
People have signed up and areofficially yeah, we have a lot.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
We have people.
We have people that used to bewith us, sons calling us, saying
, hey, can I come back?
Now that you're a masonicriding association?
And I say, of course, here's apetition, we've got guys that
like from long time ago, I stillhave my motorcycle.
Can I come back?
Yes, you're branded with a son,you can come back.
We're now again a MasonicRiding Association.

(54:22):
I'm telling you people I'venever even heard of and I've
been in it for six years.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
You know what I mean.
I just want to be clear aboutthis, specifically for the
listeners.
What you're saying is that youdid the heavy lifting, you
created this organization, youset yourself as the president,
but… as a placeholder, exactlyas a placeholder.
So you are willing, ready andable to give this power up at a
drop of a hat correct there.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
There's one, there's one caveat that they have to
change the back patch, andthere's a lot of guys that don't
want to do that because they'rein love with that, that anime.
But that anime causes moreproblems than good.
Right, and maybe we could makeit a front patch as an homage to
the original.
Why they're in love with it?
I don't know If you think aboutit, this was just something one
guy picked back in 1999.

(55:06):
There's no real, oh my God,that's our roots.
It's not.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Right right.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
He picked an anime.
He could have easily havepicked the Pyramid with Wings
and we'd all have pyramid andwins, but he didn't.
So the change.
A lot of guys, just they fallin love with the patch.
And I and I wrote a piece thatsaid look at, it's not the patch
, it's not the vest, it's noteven the name, guys, it's the
brotherhood, it's the workingtogether, it's the masonic.

(55:33):
Uh, you know principles, right,what it's about, you know?
I mean.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
The patch doesn't make you anything, it's just an
object that has no meaning inreality.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Correct.
So you know, I learned throughmost worship, grandmaster tally,
that the line hates our patch,like they all hate it, Like
universally.
I heard from other states thateveryone hates our patch.
I've heard from brothers whosaid they were going to join the
widow sons but didn't want tobecause they didn't want that
patch.
I sent you what where the patchcame from, chris.

(56:07):
I mean it's.
You know what I mean?
There's nothing, it's notreally a Masonic.
No, this is Hiram a Brit.
This is a picture of Hiram abit wife or something.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Okay, honestly that's what a lot of, because I would.
Uh, we had a whole walldedicated to the widow sons in
our lot and that was a bigcenterpiece.
Was that patch?
right and now I just sent youthe picture it came from, which
is a Japanese, japanese animesexy ninja it's lost my mind
because I had no idea where itcame from until you just sent me

(56:41):
that I brought a lot of guysinto the fraternity and they
would look at that and go.
So is that the Widow's Son'swife and I'd be like it might be
.
Honestly, I don't know.
There is a lot of people thatjust assume that that's supposed
to represent the Widow's Son'swife.
It's just's wife.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
There's a thing a guy wrote and it's touching.
It's supposed to symbolize awidow with an ashen face finding
out that her husband, who was aMason, died, and concerned
about how she's going to survivewithout him and raise her
children.
So I get that that symbolism isnice, but it's made up after
the fact, just so you know,right.

(57:19):
All right, how do we justifythis sexy ninja on the back of
our jacket, our vest?
I got it.
Let me come up with thisstatement about her being an
ashen, you know, widow, just notmasonic.
Our, the one we did, is masonicand it's a copy, loosely, uh,
on the other states and wewanted it to look enough like
the other states so that we'reblended in and quite frankly,

(57:42):
right.
So there are other countries andother states that have modified
it slightly, right so the wingsand the working tools of the
pyramid and, and you know, ifyou go on the internet and you
look, you'll see like fivedifferent, similar but not the
same access that that we picked.
So anyway, that's why we pickedthat.

(58:03):
We wanted to kind of blend it.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
You know it sounds like it comes down to we want to
.
You know, brothers, don't likechange.
Nobody likes change.
You know it's hard to do changeand you're making a change and
right, so there is going to beresistance.
I get that.
I think you're trying to besympathetic to them too right,
and say look man, I understandwhy you're upset, but like this

(58:24):
is what it is, and like we'vemet all the rules and just come
home.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Right and just come home and be with us.
And one of the believe it ornot one of the biggest sticking
point will be the back patch andI say look at, if 90 of the
world had the elvira on the back, I'd say you're right, let's
stick with it.
We are the only, we're the onlyones with it.
Man, I'm telling you you gothrough all 50 other states.
They got the pyramided wings.

(58:49):
You go to other countries, theyall have the pyramided wings.
Go on the internet, look.
I mean I don't.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
It can be a little embarrassing when you're the
only one holding on to somethingthat everyone else has already
Moved past.
I mean, like Florida was one ofthe few jurisdictions that
doesn't recognize Prince Hall,and to me, as a Mason, that was
always like a Embarrassing Right.
So it's like let's get on boardwith everybody Else and get

(59:16):
this done.
I don't see the problem in that.
I do understand that people aregoing to resist that.
However, you know it's like inanything you go to your blue
lodge.
Some idea comes up that youdisagree with.
You stand up and you ferventlystate your views and somebody
else states theirs and the craftdecides when that decision's

(59:37):
made.
You need to get on board, right.
You had your say, you had yourchance.
It went another way.
So now it's time to be a goodmason and go with the will of
the craft.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Right and remember you're a mason first.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
And so how are you feeling now that this is kind of
all, it's all fresh, right thisis all coming out.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Yeah, so I feel terrible.
I have a lot of friends, youknow, like people I used to talk
to every day, jim Bay being oneof them, the president, you
know, talk to him all the time.
So I feel terrible that theyeither misunderstood or think I
was trying to do somethingsneaky because I wasn't, or

(01:00:22):
trying to steal somethingbecause I'm not.
I'm telling you, man, I run a50-man law firm, six offices in
multiple states.
The last thing I need is moreresponsibility to govern someone
else.
I got to be honest with you myjob.
I work 12, 14 hours a day.
I don't need to run amotorcycle riding association,

(01:00:45):
I'd rather just be part of themotorcycle riding association,
the Masonic Motorcycle RidingAssociation.
I'm president of my chapter,which takes a lot of time in and
of itself.
Do you really think I want tobe president of a state as well?
I don't.
I just wanted to get it set up,get it done right and then be
able to to make it right foreveryone, I mean well, I imagine

(01:01:07):
what's going to happen now isyou will have a meeting at some
point of the what you call it,the co.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
That, yeah, I won't be at it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
So that's the problem , right, they won't.
They won't allow me out of it.
How to?

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
see, I imagine you'll have your own now, because this
is your organization, right,yeah, at some point, and and you
as an organization will pickyour own leadership moving
forward, right, so it's gonna,it's gonna, naturally fix itself
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm notcomplaining, yeah thing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
You know, with these other guys where he's like it's
a power grab, right, 100, not apower grab.
You know what I mean?
Right, I'm happy to help, I'mhappy to do whatever you need
legally.
Um, I was doing that for theold organization.
I'm the one, when they wantedto change the name, that changed
the name.
I'm the one that wrote alltheir bylaws.
Literally all their bylaws werewritten by me.
That took a lot of time.

(01:01:58):
Now, when you say, did it costme money, it did cost me money
because it took me 20, 30 hours.
And guess what I wasn't doingduring those 20, 30 hours?
Billing at $850 an hour.
I wasn't doing that, so Iwasn't making any money.
So I gave you guys a reallygood break, trust me, really.

(01:02:22):
Eight hundred fifty dollars Igive you guys.
I give you guys a really goodbreak, trust me really.
We call it the friends andfamily rate.
Most times I don't charge atall.
Um, because that's what masonicbrothers do.
You know?
My brother's kid got in trouble.
I had to handle it, get itdismissed.
I didn't charge my brother,right, I got another brother.
He wasn't getting paid.
I had to go after the peoplethat didn't pay him, he got paid
.
What do I owe you?
You owe me a beer and give me abeer.
You know what I mean.
Like I make enough money doingother stuff, I don't need to

(01:02:44):
charge my brothers.
Now, if you give me a case thattakes me 10 hours a day for a
year, I'm gonna have to charge,I mean what did you.
That said, I feel terrible thatthey now all hate me.
I'm public enemy number, thatthey're misunderstanding my
intentions, and you know, quitefrankly, you know it just kind
of took on a life of its ownwith this.

(01:03:06):
You know what I mean.
The only reason we had theother back patches made were
because we knew what the grandline was, you know, and
everything else.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
So so, hypothetically , just as a hypothetical, if
those guys came back to this neworganization, including the
leadership, you would have noproblem with seeing them
reelected to the leadership ofthe new organization.
Right, correct?
Yeah, when the time comes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
December, January, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
You wouldn't be mad about that, you would be, you'd
be 100%.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
They come right over every single one.
Now we're a Masonic writingassociation, like we weren't
going to do this damn thing, andyou know, in fact, right now,
you know you, you have thisresponsibility.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
You are the president , right?

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
This is the organization that is recognized,
so I'm setting upinfrastructure, I'm doing all
this stuff.
Yeah, you know, I told everyonethat went in this endeavor I
said, you know, there's a goodchance they want to come over
and they want to keep the elvirapatch, and then we're going to
have to go talk to grand lodge.
I think it's going to go badly.
I'm just just saying you knowwhat?

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
I mean, does the patch have to be approved by
Grand Lodge?

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
No, it doesn't.
You don't want it does not.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
It's not part of the official process, but it's like
an unofficial thing that youwant.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
I mean you really want.
Every time the guy looks at itgo.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Yeah, Plus you've kind of just gone with the rest
of the country, which is kind ofa no brainer in my mind.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
Yeah, the rest of the country, the rest of the world
yeah we got them in australia,we got them in ireland, we got
them in france, italy, bulgaria,hungary.
We got them everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Buddy, it's pretty amazing, really do feel bad for
those brothers that are on theother side of this, because I
know I mean, you probably feellike they hate you, but I doubt
that they actually hate you.
I think there's just a lot ofconfusion right now and this is
all happening fast to them,right, and it seems like it's
happening fast.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
so my hope is that, uh, when the information gets
out and they really look at itwithout the emotions, hopefully
their better senses will ruleand they'll come back to like
let's just be Masonic togetheragain and all these rules, and
like let's get back to raisingmoney, do a charity and having

(01:05:32):
fun and being brothers and comeback to masonry well and and,
honestly, if I could try tobroker a little bit of peace
here what one thing that Inoticed last year is, whenever
you have um, trying to think ofa polite way to say this when
you have rules that are beingenforced in an aggressive manner
, uh, what that'll typically doto those that are having the
rules enforced upon them isit'll start to splinter and

(01:05:54):
cause division.
That isn't contention betweenthat party.
That's exterior force beingapplied.
So the, the brothers on bothsides of this conversation and
from what it sounds like, itsounds like the, the brothers
that are not recognized by grandlodge right now y'all guys have
to understand is that there'sstill good intention being done
and performed on the oppositeside of this argument.

(01:06:16):
It was an exterior force thatcreated this contention in the
first place.
So it makes most sense in theworld to just all right, let the
tempers calm down a little bit,let the temperature cool down,
let's come back together, let'shave a reconciliation, agreed.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
And that's what I want.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
That's going to be your challenge just having to
work through that now.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
I'll earn that uh certified by the supreme court
of florida as a mediator, andthey don't all earn that badge
if I'm able to do this well.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
We really appreciate you coming on and helping us
understand and helping thelisteners kind of understand
better what's going on in thewidow sons, what led you here
and what you're doing now what ason is a great organization, as
we say, what a son's, foreverSons.
If someone wants to join theWidow Sons, or if you have a
member of the old Widow Sonsthat wants to come back, how can

(01:07:04):
they reach you?
What's the best way to do that?

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
The email is probably the best way.
My email address is CW, that'sCharlie Whiskey, at WMD, that's
weapons of mass destruction.
Dash law L-A-W dot org.
O-r-g.
Yes, it was done on purpose.
Yes, it was formed back in theday.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
I saw that in your email and I thought nah, it's
got to mean something else.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
I love that email.
Everything from the CharlieWhiskey on.

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
So that's my email address.
That's one of the fastest waysto get ahold of me.
Shoot me an email.
I've already sent out three orfour petitions from old brothers
that want to come back, and I'mhappy they do and we can get to
the business of being WidowSons, having fun, fellowship,
raising money for charity andbeing good Masons is there

(01:07:54):
anything, as we go on the wayout, that you would like to
share with the fraternity?

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
not not even necessarily just the widow, sons
, but you have an opportunityhere to speak to masons all over
the world.
Is there?
What would you tell them?

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
the widow sons as a whole when I joined masonry.
You know they say to make goodmen better and it was always my
opinion that the widow sons werethe best of the better.
Right, these were guys thatheld in high regard.
Brotherhood actually meantbrotherhood.
You're stuck on the side of theroad at 4 in the morning.
You call me.
I get up, I put my shoes on,I'm there, you get arrested.

(01:08:28):
You call me, I'm going to thejail.
I'm getting you out.
It's convenient to be a brotherwhen it's easy, when you're a
brother when it's easy, whenyou're a brother when it's
inconvenient, that's when youknow you have a true brother.
And in the Witta Sons that'skind of how it was.
You know we were true brothersand good masons.
So for the rest of the world,the Witta Sons is a great

(01:08:50):
organization.
It's the best of the better inmy opinion and you know I just I
hope this works out in thestate of florida.
I'm sure it will.
One way or another the dustwill settle and it'll work out
and we'll get back to thebusiness of being good masons,
working hand in hand with thegrand lodge, which is what
cements your relationship withthe grand lodge and, uh, you

(01:09:13):
know, riding motorcycles andhaving fun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Love it.
Great message and thank you forcoming on and being with us and
sharing your morning.
Matt.
Anything for the brothers onour way out.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Nope.
May peace and brotherly loveprevail.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
You know we are all Widow Sons is just one aspect of
the fallout from last year.
The entire state is goingthrough some form of trying to
come back together, trying tofind normalcy, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
So it was very divisive last year, you know
yeah, it was like most like ourpolitics, to be honest with you
yeah, exactly, it was like man.
It infected everything.
Everybody was very divisive and, uh, we gotta be still, it's
very divisive and the.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
The root of this, all of this is we've stopped
talking to each other, correct?
That's the?
That's the reason we had somuch chaos last year.
Because they gagged the state.
They said we're not going totalk, we don't want you talking,
we're not talking about this,um, and it just caused so many
problems, and it's the samething in politics.
I can't talk to you if youdon't think like me, because

(01:10:20):
you're evil, you're the bad guy.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
Instead, they should have joined the conversation.
You understand, that's the key.
We got to talk about thistogether.
Join the conversation and youcan educate and explain.
Then it's above the board,right, and that's, and that's
what you need.
So when you try to stifle theconversation, that's a problem.
When you refuse to speak tosomeone else because they don't
think like you, well then howare you ever going to get

(01:10:43):
another perspective, how are youever going to understand their
position?
How do you even know yourposition's right?
You may talk to me for 10minutes and I may go.
You know what You're right.
I see your position.
I mean, I'd say it out loud,but in my mind I'll say it and
you know right, becauseeveryone's got an ego.
And then tomorrow I'm espousingyour position because what you
said was correct.
So you got to listen, man, yougot to just keep, you got to

(01:11:06):
open heart.
I guess is the best way to sayit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
I don't know, I don't want to sound too corny well,
and and here's the thing thatI've kind of discovered is you
also have to trust yourbrother's intention.
Um, that's one thing that Inoticed real big last year is as
I was trying to work you know,this angle at Turkey Creek.
I have brothers that werepissed, I mean furious, with me
and I'm like no, you need tounderstand my intention behind
this, and my intention behindthis is for the good of Turkey

(01:11:28):
Creek, the good of the craft,the good of you, name it.
You know like I'm trying to dothe most good here, but instead
it because you're not havingthat conversation, because
you're not talking and keepingcommunication flowing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
They think the worst of you, and that's a that's a.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
That's a bad place to be man.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
It really is yeah, as soon as you start making
assumptions, you're immediatelywrong yeah, 100, but you're
operating like you knowsomething that you you're very
confident that you're sayingsomething with such confidence
and authority that people arelike it must be true it's not
right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
Right, we lie to ourselves all the time and and
our worst enemy is our ego.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
It's the enemy of man , is the ego we have to admit
you're right, to admit you'rewrong, or to admit the other
side is right.
You almost can't do it right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
It hurts, you're like I I honestly don't know what
you guys are talking about.
I get up every day, look in themirror and say you've got a
phenomenal head of hair.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
You are just so handsome look at, buddy, I'm not
far behind you.
You know, I mean this.
This hairline keeps going andgoing and going on a full-blown
retreat I'm with you, man.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
I'm getting this weird like yeah, I mean it's so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
Here's the thing, and and we've said it on the show
before but I'm on, I'm on TRT,and so it's so funny because all
of this is not coming back.
But, dadgummit, I have got hairon my back.
That is insane.
Like if all of y'all could justmove to the proper location,
that'd be great buddy, I know, Iknow the feeling.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
Trust me, I know the feeling spades what's up?

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
brother.
Yes, thank you, we we doappreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Hopefully you'll come back onthe podcast and keep us updated
as things progress yeah, man,anytime all right, thank you so
much I'm level.
Podcast is out, bye.