Revelations from a Newly Raised Master Mason with Brother Matt Stone

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
We have to decide what to do with the time of the
Skeletons.
You've reached the internet'shome for all things masonry.
Join on the level podcast as weplumb the depths of our ancient
craft and try to unlock themysteries, dispel the fallacies
and utilize the teachings offreemasonry to unlock the great

(00:29):
within each of us.
I have you now.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Let's go there it is.
I haven't heard that in a hotminute.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right, yeah, welcome back to on the level
podcast.
We have a very we have a roughcutoff on the applause.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, well, you know you have to.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
It's like a laugh track.
If you don't, then people don'tknow you did something cool.
I need to get a laugh track inhere, so when we say jokes you
hear it.
Yeah, really, oh, I have.
Yeah, that's not.
I don't know.
That's like the kind of laughwe probably want.
But no, let's run it.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
I mean, the world thinks we're weirdos anyway, so
might as well Babies.
Did you say babies?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, now there's a sound clip for you.
Take it out.
Now there's a sound clip foryou.
Take it out of context and useit all you need.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, exactly Some Baptist minister out of Arizona
is going to clip it.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
No, I mean listen when I'll tell the story.
Remind me to come back and tellthe story, but first I want to
introduce our guest today, oractually I'd like you to
introduce yourself, matt.
Tell all the listeners of onthe level podcast, just give us
your name, your extended Masonichistory, and we'll go from
there.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
You're being too generous.
So my name is Matt Stone, I amfrom Turkey Creek, lodge 248.
And I was raised December 9thso long ago of 2023.
So I've been a Mason for all ofabout a little over two months,
I think it is.
So, yeah, now I'm Right.

(02:15):
After I got raised to thesublime degree of Master Mason,
I was installed as Junior Deacon.
I was appointed CatechismInstructor.
Yeah, there we go.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Right to work.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, the grotto's already got my petition, york
Wright's got my petition, sowe'll see what happens with it.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Two months in and this is pretty, pretty typical
we see the Masons come in, wesee them join the pendant bodies
and get into the line, and thenyou look like the Crip Heaper.
In three years We've sucked allthe life out of you and your
wife hates.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Freemasonry.
She doesn't hate it yet,luckily.
So my cable toe is a remarkablypatient woman.
I cannot compliment her enough.
And of course we have atwo-year-old here, so the
two-year-old keeps her busy.
So as long as I keep that kindof back and forth of making sure
that I'm a husband first, a dadsecond, I think she'll be okay

(03:11):
with me and my extracurricularactivities.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's awesome.
I mean communication's key,obviously, because as long as
you're both communicating andthe expectations are set, she
won't be disappointed or upset.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, and the thing is, you know, I try to like on
family nights or lodge nights, Itry to bring my wife and my
daughter up to the lodge andthere's a lot of nice, sweet old
ladies from the Eastern Starthat really help us out with
food.
Of course, if I keep eatingtheir food I'm going to keep
putting on weight.
So they've got to become healthconscious quick.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, it's rare you find like a salad or anything
healthy at a Masonic meal.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
We love our carbs and our meats for sure, oh yeah, I
was chatting back and forth withanother Mason and so we were
laughing about how the worldviews Masonry, and one of the
things that we were talkingabout I was like you know, I
can't remember talking aboutglobal domination between plates
of lasagna.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, I was talking to.
I saw I was watching the newswhen I was working out this
morning.
I now got a TV in the gym so Ijust played the news, which is
really does I mean a lot ofpeople listen to angry music?
Yay, try listening to the news.
You'll get real upset and itreally gets your adrenaline
going.
It works for me.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, I imagine our current administration could
benefit from a Stairmaster, butthat's a joke, that's about two
years old, so Like the guy's 80something.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
I mean, at that point it's like he's just as long as
he doesn't walk.
You're like, oh, he looks halfdecent, you know, but the second
he walks you're like ooh.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
As long as he doesn't try to operate like a human, he
does well, Like that's.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's like Weekend at Bernie's president style.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, exactly Like his handle is over there, like
trying to flail him around,throw him in the Corvette, it's
good stuff Turns out.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
our president's been dead for three years and they've
just been bringing him toevents.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
News headlines that wouldn't shock me for $500.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Like.
I mean no, they were, they didlike because you know, it's
everything, is sports, now evenpolitics.
Oh, yeah.
Channel and they did like aside by side matchup, like it's
a fight like age, weight, blood.
It's like, wow, okay, is anyonegoing to pay to go see George
Foreman fight?
Like whatever old fat fighterstill is out there.

(05:24):
Like, no, no one's going to payto see.
No one wants to see thismatchup, okay.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, If I'm being honest with you you want a real
competition.
Like what is this crap?
100%.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat I've kind of tuned out on
in the last couple of years, andpolitics is yeah.
Politics is among them.
Just because whenever youactually look at it, you can see
just how whether you want tocall it rigged, whether you want
to call it selected, no matterwhat Like, if you look at yeah,

(05:51):
because I'm kind of more Iwouldn't say libertarian these
days, but I am more centeredthan I have been previously.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
And so the thing is, you probably haven't changed,
they've changed.
Yes, the positions have stayedthe same, so you're labeled now
a little differently maybe thanyou were labeled before, but I
bet that you haven't changedyour viewpoints a whole lot 100%
.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
I mean, I got a couple of hard line sticking
points, but it's like they getup there, they get their sound
bite in some congressional hall,and then it's like, oh, we're
going to go after them, and thennothing happens.
And then it's, oh, we're goingto do this and defend these
people, and then nothing happens.
And then it's like, oh, we'regoing to invade this other
country again.
And I'm like, guys, come on,enough, enough is enough.
It's true.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
That's how we were.
I was telling my wife you knowthey're changing election laws
and everything's always gettingredone.
And I was telling her this ishow you make a new world order.
It's not masonry, it's not whatwe do.
Trust me, there's no connectionbetween what we do in our
lodges or any of the dependentbodies which I'm a member of all

(06:53):
of them that I have ever seen.
That compares to what politicsglobally are doing to us as a,
as a species.
Like, if there's to be a newworld order, it's strictly
happening at the corporate level.
It is not, it's not tied to asecret organization that can't
get their rent paid.
Trust me, yeah, for real.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, that actually brings up a question.
So I was going to ask you andI've asked a couple of people
this in masonry, is there asignificance of the coins?
Because I haven't seen anythingyet, in my grand two months of
being a master mason, what's thesignificance of the coins?
No, I haven't seen anything.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, they're called challenge coins and it's just a
little game that we play witheach other.
So the premise is that you, ifyou have, you should have the
coin on you at all times.
And if I see you at a bar and Idemand to see your coin and you
can't produce it, you have tobuy my drink.
If I demand the coin and youproduce it, I have to buy your
drink, so it's a little drinkinggame we play with each other

(07:51):
called the challenge.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
So I the only coin I got was from Florida's Grand
Lodge.
The district deputy came in and, you know, gave us a little pin
for a lapel and a coin.
That's the only one I have.
Is that the one you're talkingabout or is there something else
?

Speaker 1 (08:07):
No, like we all of, like the widow's sons, have a
coin and many of the differentbodies of the Scottish right in
New York right, I'll have coins.
Okay, and you know you'll findFreemasonry has secret
organizations within secretorganizations within secret
organizations and they all wantto be special and unique.
So these coins are a way thatit can.

(08:28):
It can like make you feelyou're part of the cool club
when somebody plays that gamewith you.
I've never actually seen ithappen, but then I don't like
hang out at bars a whole lotwith guys.
If I do, I'm already buying thedrinks, so I don't really care
about the game First round isalways on me, you know.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, I'm not a big bar guy, but whenever they gave
me the door code to the grottobecause I do their, I do some of
their maintenance there, someof their maintenance work
they're like, oh, we're going togive you the door code to the
grotto and I'm like that is aterrible idea.
That is a patently terribleidea.
I need a supervisor all times,yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
So we, and who's going to supervise you?
Another grotto guy.
This is the blind thing,exactly.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
So so the grotto is voting on me on the 19th, I
believe, is a Monday coming uphere pretty soon.
So it's funny because thecurrent monarch is a buddy of
mine.
He's the guy who raised me,actually, chris.
So shout out to Chris George is.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
But it was funny.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Okay, yeah, that's the guy that you and I spoke
with, but either way he goes.
Hey, do yourself a favor.
When we go to vote on you onthe 19th, make sure you're there
.
And I'm like why he goes,because that's also going to be
your first meeting.
I'm like you guys aren't evengoing to have a discussion.
He goes dude, you're alreadylocked in.
Everybody knows you.
You're fine.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, it's.
It's mainly a formality, thesethings you can imagine how many
guys are raising their hands ifthey don't like a guy.
It's not happening that often,so yeah, oh it was.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
It was hilarious, I was.
I was still a fellow craft whenI filled out my petition for
the grotto, just because I hadinteracted with all those guys
so much, and so our worshipfulthis year is a guy named Dave
Mason.
Dave Mason is 80 years old andis the picture perfect
definition of does not careabout anything.
I love this guy to death.
He's just one of those.
You know he'll tell you to foff faster than anybody.

(10:11):
So the best thing about him,though, is, as I'm filling out
the petition a little pocketpetition he leans back.
It's got no teeth.
Leans back, matt, what youdoing there?
I said, well, dave, I'm fillingout my petition for the grotto
and he goes.
You know I'm a member of thegrotto.
I said, yeah, and he goes.
You know I'm going to vote thatdown.
I said, no, you're not, dave,you want me and you want me in
the grotto.
You're right, I don't.

(10:32):
I'm not going to vote down, butI want you in the grotto, and I
said, okay, good, he's a greatguy.
I love that dude to death.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
And what was his name ?

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Dave Mason.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So what a unique coincidence.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
So Mason and his name , we have worshipful Mason.
That is Mason.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
So descriptive right, worshipful Mason, he needs to
go all the way to the top.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
I don't.
I don't think the the grandline would appreciate him at all
.
So quick, a little story aboutthat.
So they were in a meeting.
I'm not going to say who theparties are, but they were in a
meeting talking, and so you know, dave, dave and his crew are
group A and then group B is, youknow, complaining about
something?
And so at some point in thisthis is the description I've

(11:19):
heard from multiple people thathe just leans back and just
folds his hands like this andleans back in his chair and then
he finally he goes are all ofy'all done?
And they go yeah, all of us aredone.
He goes.
Great, there's the effin doorif you need it.
That's gangster.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's all style gangster.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
I love him.
I keep telling him he's myspirit animal, so I want to be
like him when I grew up.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
My emotions won't let me do that.
You know I'm leaning forwardlike I wish I could lean back
and put my hands up and be like,oh yeah, say you're silly stuff
.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah, and and the instill and this is
something that I reallyappreciate within Masonry, there
is a level of just clarity andpurity and what you're saying
between brothers, given thatbrother's heart and intention.
And so one of the things thatI've noticed is, yeah, there is
some of the, some of thepolitical garbage, you know,
especially whenever you get insome of the grand lodge guys or
the district guys, butespecially a lot of the local

(12:11):
guys.
Like you know, you brought inSean Cooney and and I think
Sean's been on the podcastbefore yes, but Sean is.
I'm known Sean for five yearsand the first time I ever met me
or sorry, I ever met him hebeat me up, to be clear, he and
I both do Brazilian jiu-jitsuand he just modeled me, I mean,
just destroyed me.

(12:31):
So that's where we met thefirst time, five years ago.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
I mean, he's a young guy too, right?
Yeah, he's younger than thanyou.
Are you guys the same age?

Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think we're close to the same age.
I'm pretty sure it's just thatI've got a lot more mileage on
me than than he does.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
I've been talking to him for the most time, it's just
been a while, not the years.
The years that I get there, but.
But, but, you know, talk toSean, sorry, yeah, he introduced
me to you and uh, he, he hemade a big deal about your
master Mason degree.
You know he brought acontingent of brothers from our
lodge in maybe two and a half tothree hour drive away.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
I'd say something like that About an hour, hour
and a half.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, well, I can make it an hour, hour and a half
.
I'm not suggesting everyonedoes.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
It's Florida, so it's anywhere from an hour and a
half to six days.
It could be anywhere in thatrange to drive.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
That is a factual statement.
And gosh the roads.
With all the influx of peoplemoving into Florida, it's just
getting worse, yeah.
But the good news is, with theinflux of people moving to
Florida, that masonry can nowflourish in Florida.
Yeah, so long as we can recruiteffectively.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, so I'm sorry, I think they're Recruit recruit.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
I just want to be clear on that.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
They're getting a handle on that.
They're kind of getting theirbearings, hopefully, on how to
recruit properly these days.
We're certainly making aneffort to make sure that people
know how to do that, but thereason that I wanted you to be
on the podcast is we talkedbefore you were a master mason
about some things that was goingon in your journey to becoming

(14:12):
a master mason, and you told methat you listened to the podcast
before you were even a mastermason, and that piqued my
curiosity, because at theinception of this podcast, I
wanted to talk about masonry topeople that aren't masons.
This wasn't meant to be a fourbrothers podcast.

(14:32):
This was meant to be a for theworld podcast.
So that's why you often hear usstop and explain things that
the everyday mason already knows.
Come on, why are we doing this?
Well, it's because we wantpeople that don't know about
masonry to be able to followalong with us and see that what
we're doing here is good, and soone of the things I asked you

(14:54):
immediately since you were not amaster mason and you heard all
the episodes was give me somefeedback.
What would you recommend?
And you gave me some greatfeedback and definitely trying
to implement as many of thosepoints as I can, and today I'm
implementing one because yousaid you know it'd be great,
it'd be great to hear thejourney of a man who came in and

(15:17):
just follow his career as amason, just kind of see how
things are progressing for him.
And there's that you know,honestly, that should be a
Netflix documentary series,reality show, because it's going
to be a wild ride.
You're going to have ups anddowns and huge wins and really
low lows.
It's going to be a rollercoaster ride in Freemasonry and

(15:40):
I'm really excited to have youon the show only two months in
now and you've already got therocket pack strapped to your
back and you're going full speed.
Right, you've already had yourfirst meeting as an officer in a
lodge two months in.
You already belong to onealmost two appended bodies, or

(16:00):
if you're about to belong to twoappended bodies, one of those
appended bodies has threesubdivided appended bodies
within it that you'll probablyget involved in.
You know the York right has thecommandery and two other bodies
that it's expected that you.
You know they have threeseparate paths, three separate

(16:20):
officer groups, three separatemeetings every month, but it's
all the York right and thenyou're going to get into the
Scottish right and they're goingto.
They have three separate bodiesand you're going to be more
actually than three and you'llbe tempted to join all of them.
So now you're a part of sevenand the grotto makes eight
groups.
And you know the the early inyour career, master Mason and

(16:44):
really this is a problem for allmaster masons is you want to
prove that you're a capableperson, and so you say yes.
And you not only say yes, youdo everything with exuberance
and zealousness, and so that cantax your time greatly, and I'm
really curious to see how thatplays out for you.

(17:04):
Your wife has a good opinion ofFreemasonry.
Two months in, you're alreadystarting to get into the
appended bodies and I'm sureyou're going to get positions
offered to you once you get inthere.
So I kind of a church too, right?
I'm sorry, and you're stillactively involved in your church
, right?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yes, so I'm the worship minister at my church,
if that's even a title, and, tobe clear, I go to.
The denomination I go to ismuch more conservative, so we
don't use instruments oranything, so it's all acapella.
So I get up there, you know,give the four time everything.
Sorry, I wasn't doing theCatholic thing.

(17:43):
But, I get up there and lead thesongs and teach new songs,
assign song leaders you know allthat and I teach our young
adult class.
So, yeah, yeah, so well, Ico-teach our young adult class
with our minister, a guy namedJohn, who's.
I look at John as more of abrother than I do some of my
blood relatives.

(18:03):
He is just such a phenomenalguy from Albany, georgia.
He's got a great story.
But but, yeah, it's, it's a lot.
I'm aware that it's a lot, so atsome point I'm going to have to
at saying no, yeah, and, whilemy wife has the patience, now,
yes, it makes sense for me to doit.
And then at you know, forexample, back to your comment of

(18:26):
jumping in and doing things anddoing them with, with zeal, the
reason why I started jumping inand I started doing the trussel
board.
So now I'm responsible for ourtrussel board, which, golly,
everyone has a different trusselboard.
It's insane.
I'm doing our trussel board,doing catechism instruction,
doing the website.

(18:47):
It's because nobody was doingit and that's kind of the thing
is it's like all right,everybody wants to sit there and
complain about.
Are we going to have enoughpeople that are going to show up
to a lodge meeting, but yetnobody does anything, right?
So, and that's why I wanted totalk to you at first, and our
first conversation was hey, I'mjust getting into this thing.
You've got phenomenal with 147down in Sarasota.

(19:07):
Thank you, what do I do?
So you gave me some phenomenaladvice, which is stuff that
we're starting to implement andlook at.
We got a fellow craft degreetonight.
Actually, I'm going to play,I'm going to be the junior
deacon for the fellow craftdegree Nice, but that's actually
for a neighboring lodge, number79, olin S.

(19:28):
But they're having the exactsame issues that it seems like
every lodge is happening, withthe exception of 147 and 91 in
Lakeland.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
There are a few like there's actually a lodge that
beats me in membership everyyear by like one or two and, man
, it chaps my high.
But it's great, you know,because that just shows you like
it can work.
Yeah, and it is repeatable indifferent areas of the state.
Yeah, and it really just takespassionate brothers that care

(19:59):
and are willing to put in alittle elbow grease.
I mean, there's far like whatyou experienced and what you are
experiencing is people havethis idea that Masonry is just
always going to be there, that Ireally it was there before I
got here.
It's going to be there when Ileave, like what do I?
What am I going to do?
Like it'll be fine.

(20:20):
And they have that mentality andthat perpetuates the the
continued downward trend of ourinfluence in our communities and
globally, because it's notalways going to be there.
And the longer people stringtogether leadership that have
that mentality, the worse it'sgoing to get.
Like we got to fight to keepthis, this beautiful thing,

(20:43):
alive and living.
It can't just be old documentsthat people reference and then
you go and act like a profaneperson in Masonry.
No, like you need to be a Masonif you're going to be in
Masonry, or at least trying tobe the best version of a Mason
that you can be.
But far too often people are inleadership roles that aren't

(21:06):
even really making an effort tobe Masons.
So it takes.
It takes people like yourselfwho come in with a lot of
integrity from their normal lifeBecause we say we make good men
better.
Well, let's do it Like you're agood man and people will say,
hey, this guy's a leader in hischurch, you own your own
business, you have a lot ofclients to trust you.

(21:27):
So how are you going to makethat guy better?
Well, we're not.
We're not.
He's going to make himselfbetter.
I think that's how Freemasonryworks.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
So it's not necessarily an organizational
issue, but rather a.
I don't even know if you couldcall it a generational issue,
because I've seen it in Gen Xers, I've seen it in Boomers, I've
seen it in Millennials.
It's just people getcomfortable and they just don't
want to do anything.
And so then you develop the80-20 rule, where 20% of the

(21:59):
people are doing 80% of the work.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, definitely, and that you know that maybe that's
just who we are as a species.
We just are hardwired and youknow that laziness can actually
be good for society.
So a past master of my lodge,warshful, stephen Garcia Morales
, he and I wrote somelegislation together this year
that's going to be on theFlorida Grand Lodge ballot to

(22:25):
introduce the Chamber ofReflection back into being
accepted Florida work.
More on that later.
But he he does IT security andwhen he was Warshful Master he
did a whole presentation on howlaziness actually creates
opportunities to streamlinethrough processes.

(22:45):
And so it's the lazy peoplethat do something about not
wanting to do work that createefficiencies.
I don't want to do the samething two, three times.
So I'm going to write a scriptthat's just going to make it all
happen, so your laziness can beharnessed to positive effect.
But at some point you got to dosomething about it, right?

Speaker 2 (23:05):
You can't like just you know, I had suggested that I
think back whenever I was an EA.
So the my Catechism instructorwas the Warshful Master at the
time, chris, that I mentionedearlier also the guy who raised
me.
But one of the things that Ihad I had noticed early on is
I'm like man, why is a WarshfulMaster doing Catechism

(23:26):
instruction?
And it's because nobody elsedid, and it's not that I'm
bashing anybody in my lodge,like you know, the guy who was
supposed to do my investigation.
He's got like five kids orsomething like that.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
So it's like people are busy.
I get it, I understand it, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
And I suggested I'm like man Chris, you're taking
six, eight months to doCatechism instruction once a
week with me and this other guy.
And now, granted, there wasScotch and Cigars involved, so
it was a good time, that's nice,yeah.
Yeah, you realize how manycomplaints we're going to get on
that statement right there.
If it's going to be oh my gosh,they drink Scotch while they
did Catechism instruction.
It's like yes, and I totallyforgot all of it by the end of

(24:02):
the night.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
But as long as you weren't doing it in the lodge
room, you're fine.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Oh no, we were.
We were at the grotto.
The grotto was kind of ourhangout so by the way, this past
Monday I did pass myproficiency for Master Mason
Master Mason.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Congratulations Well done.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Thank you, but either way, I asked Chris about this.
I'm like Chris why don't wehave different Catechism
instructors for each degree?
So we have one Catechisminstructor for EA, one for
Fellowcraft, one for MasterMason, because I click
remarkably well with Fellowcraft, but I was horrible at EA.
I was terrible and he said Iwould love to, but apparently

(24:43):
there's a law against that orthere's something against that.
Like can you explain that alittle bit.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, so the Grand Lodge of Florida has a mentors
manual that's published on theGrand Lodge website and it's
really a manual for mentors andCatechism guys, because they're
supposed to work together, thementor and the Catechism
instructor.
Yeah, those are supposed to beyour first two links to the
fraternity for, as you said, sixto eight months, so they should
be knowledgeable people andthey should be people that are

(25:12):
gonna stick with you to the end.
And so this isn't written intothe digest of Masonic law, but
it's in the mentors manual, andthe way it's been explained to
me is we take an obligation toobserve our traditions and
customs of Premasonry.
So, while it's not a law, it'sin the mentors manual, which

(25:33):
makes it an adopted traditionthat we're supposed to follow
according to the digest whichand our obligations.
This is how a past grandmasterexplained it to me, and in the
mentors manual it specificallystates that it should be the
same brother that does all threeCatechisms for one student.
It should not be differentbrothers.

(25:53):
So, there's no law against it.
I don't think anyone's gonnagetting trouble for doing it.
With a grand lodge it is anadopted custom not to do
different people in differentdegrees.
So my advice would be Do it,just don't advertise, you know.
Maybe just don't make itobvious that this is your thing,

(26:13):
but you know a lodge needs todo what a lodge needs to do to
get by.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, and my logic behind it and thinking behind it
is if you've got a lodge where,like every state of
communication, you've got 80dude showing up like yeah, okay,
you're gonna have guys that aresuper dedicated to the craft
and they're gonna want to put inthat time for the six, eight
months, and even then you mightonly do one catechism
instruction and the next yearit's gonna be somebody else.
Or you might do one year ofcatechism and then it's somebody
else.
But these lodges where, likeour lodge you know there's,

(26:42):
sometimes we struggle to getenough people to show up, it
lightens the workload on thecatechism structure.
And then the other positivebenefit of it is that it gives
the the, the candidate, the EA,the fellow craft and then the
master Mason.
It gives them more exposure tomore people at the lodge because
you know as well as.
I do.
Whenever you're there fordinner, you know it's like
there's the clicks, like youknow.

(27:02):
Okay, it's like school, likewe're gonna sit at the center
table on the second line andthen the past masters are
sitting at the table behind us,and we've also did the exact
same table every single month.
So it just made sense to me.
But then again, I'm brand newat this, so it's not like I'm
trying to step on anybody's toes.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
No, I mean there's a.
There's a lodge in my district.
There's a lodge Miles from mylodge and if you walk in they
have a whiteboard and theyactually have, like this guy
does Entered apprenticecatechism, this guy does fellow
craft catechism and they havelittle dots for what candidates
in which ones.
So they're advertising it andthey still got a charter.

(27:39):
Nobody's pulled it and that'swhat I'm saying.
It's.
That's not a rule, I think,because we got such bigger fish
to fry right now.
Yeah, and our fraternity ofreal problems.
I would be shocked if anyonetried to cause me drama out of
the fact that you had adifferent instructor.
Captain instructor yeah, it isin short supply.

(28:00):
And really, your catechisminstructors.
According to the mentors manual, if you're doing catechism
instruction, you should have asilver card, proficiency first,
oh.
Oh, I'm not people I know doingcatechism instructor do not have
a silver card.
Proficiency yeah.
I don't have that either.
So, listen, we have a lot ofrules and there are some

(28:22):
important ones, and then thereare some not so important ones,
and I think these are allfollowing under the not so
important rules that are gettingbroken.
Yeah, out of necessity, becausewe just don't have enough
people to do the work, and ifyou don't have the people you
got it do, the lodge needs tosurvive.
Yeah, so you got to do what yougot to do and I can't see grand
lodge faulting a lodge for, youknow, doing what it needs to

(28:43):
keep these brothers movingthrough the degrees and becoming
master mason's well.
She's the ultimate goal.
Yeah, make them good, make themhave a good experience, because
if you don't have a goodexperience, you just went
through it.
Why would you keep going?
It's like I don't need thiscrap in my life.
I got enough stress and I'mpaying money, I'm doing a lot of

(29:04):
work and I'm not having fun.
Yeah, I think I'm out on thisand that's what happens a lot of
times.
They just decided the squeezeisn't the juices and worth the
squeeze, as they say in thefraternity, for some people.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, I just figured I would take the Jeremy Barnes
approach with amity and it'sjust, I'm just gonna go ahead
and do it and then askpermission whenever I get caught
.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Look it, he's a pretty successful mason.
And there you go.
That says because I took theother approach, I went and got
permission and my project diedbecause of it.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Oh, my goodness, I was so disheartened whenever I
heard that because I waslistening to the Jeremy Barnes
podcast on my way here to,because I just posted yesterday.
But yeah, but I know as soon asyou said that you're like, yeah
, grand lodge shut down, youknow yours with the, you know
the business owners and whatnot,because it's for financial gain
, I'm like no, because yourealize how many?

Speaker 1 (29:54):
people do yeah, it's so many people construction in
construction.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
It is so hard to find good people, it is so hard to
find people you can trust and tofind brothers that you want to
benefit, and that's where Cooneyand I Cooney and I talk
literally every day, and youknow because he's in
construction as well, so he andI work together on a lot of
projects.
So, okay, oh yeah, I get somuch exposure to that guy.
It's insane.
I Think I talked to Sean Cooneyyeah.

(30:20):
I think I talked to him morethan I talked to my wife, so
yeah, but either way yeah, I wasso sad about that of.
You know grand lodge interpretedthat of financial gain and
here's what I've told a lot ofpeople I did not join free
masonry for financial gain, butdad gum, and if it's not there
whenever you get in, you knowit's you know, it could be yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Because it happens all the time.
It's a trust network, much likechurch.
Yeah, is a trust network.
If you go to a church andyou're very active, it's not
uncommon, I don't think, for youto say, hey, I need a plumber.
Do we have any guys at thechurch that do plumbing?
That's very common, right?
Yeah, because they know thatguy's not gonna screw them over.
He doesn't want to embarrasshimself in that community where

(31:07):
he's trusted, so he's gonna dofair work for a fair price,
right?
It's the same in the fraternityHappens all the time.
Somebody's like, hey, do we haveanybody that does plumbing?
And now you got to go chasingdown the rabbit hole of Joe, joe
, joe's smoke doesn't.
Here's his number.
And then you find out Joe diedthree years ago.
And it's like oh, anybody else?

(31:29):
And now you're doing full-timework, just find somebody.
And eventually you give up andyou go to the yellow pages and
you find someone and you youroll the dice yeah, you don't
know.
But in my mind it makes a wholelot of sense for us to work
together and make it a whole loteasier to connect with each
other.
Is there monetary gain there?
Yes, I suppose you could makethat argument.

(31:52):
But is it wrong?
Is it unmasonic?
Hmm, I think there's anargument to be made that it is
not unmasonic.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
Well, is it unmasonic ?
You know, we, we learned aboutthe 24-inch gauge.
Yeah, is it unmasonic to doyour vocation?
That's what boils down to.
And so, no, it's not, it's notunmasonic to do your job.
I mean, we, we literallylearned about that, you know, in
our dedicating of service.
But as you consider that it'slike, okay, you know, for
example, you or our lodge, I'lljust use our logic.
Example Worshplm Mason asked meto go in there and give them a

(32:25):
price on redoing the floor.
Now, I did not put any profiton this at all.
I was going to do everythingfor sure course, and so I think
the material came back at like8,000 dollars and the labor came
back at like 15,000 orsomething like that, and
everyone pearl-clutched wheneverthat happened.
Does that mean that I joinedmasonry for masonic gain?
Or does that mean at ourbuildings, almost a hundred

(32:46):
years old and it needs some workdone, yeah, so, and it you know
.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
This is one of those like old rules, I think, because
I get the gist of it is like wedon't want people to join the
fraternity Just to hand outbusiness cards and like hey, did
you know that I do this?
Hey, did you know it?
Like I get that that's reallygoing to be a problem for us
Because we're focused on higherthings and a loftier ideals but

(33:15):
at the same time, I don't reallythink that's what's happening
nine times out of 10 and I'vedone it and other people.
I'm always referring peoplelike I'm.
I know a lot of people.
So people often come to me andlike who's our guy?
Who's our guy for this?
Is our guy for that?
Well, there's three guys.
I know that D-Milk is a guy.
That's a lot more than a lotmore than a lot more.
But there's a lot more guys Iknow that do that.
Here's the three numbers.
Yeah, I haven't, I don't usethem personally, but I know they

(33:37):
do that and it's just an old,antiquated way to get
information.
Like how annoying is it thatwe've got to go through that
process when we could easilyhave a directory?
Yeah, you know, I think that'sone of those things.
It's like it is.
It needs to be interpreted by agrandmaster Because it's
unclear in the digest.
Now I'm very visible in thefraternity and always have been

(33:59):
so.
I own a business and let metell you how far people go.
I, like you, was very proudwhen I became a mason to tell
the world that I'm a mason.
So I hung a flag outside mybuilding.
A masonic flag on one side andan american flag on the other is
what I had flying outside mybuilding.
Well, some brother drove by myplace of business and told On me

(34:23):
that I was using Freemasonryfor monetary gain because I had
my masonic flag outside mybusiness.
And I'm like well, so thedistrict deputy guy you know,
talks to me and I'm like look,I'm helping the fraternity way
more than the fraternity ishelping me.
Okay, nobody's coming here.
Like are you a mason?
Give me, I'll give you all mymoney.

(34:43):
No, they're like oh, that'sweird.
I know that's weird.
Yeah, I don't want to go tothat guy.
I'm trying to help build yourcredibility of the fraternity.
Like I'm a real dude, I'm abusiness guy and I'm a mason.
I'm proud.
They made me take that flagdown and put it inside the
building where it couldn't beseen out If someone comes into
my building.
They were totally fine with mehaving it displayed in the

(35:05):
building, but having it outsidethe building was interpreted as
I'm trying to use masonry formonetary gain.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
So that argument, I, I could see that argument, but
it also depends on where's,where's the finish line to that
argument.
And I, I do this in church aswell, whenever we talk Doctrine
or, you know, whenever we'retalking politics or whatever,
it's okay, where's the line.
So, by that logic, right there,I should not be wearing this
ring, right, I shouldn't bewearing it.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, you shouldn't have the square encompasses on
your car.
Although the Grand Lodge ofFlorida sells a license plate
and makes money off it todisplay it on your car Like it
just is very off kilter, the theyeah execution of these things.
So yeah it's hard to know wherethe line is.
It makes it really difficultwhen they say it's totally okay
to sell placemats with businesscards, but it's not okay to list

(35:54):
a directory for free, like okay, like we're, like, you're
saying, like what is the pointof this?
Then like, how do we find themeaning behind all this stuff?

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, I, I said that that just doesn't make a lot of
sense.
You know, for example, I'mtrying to get quotes on uh
t-shirts which, uh, are holosfor our lodge which, by the way,
I'm going to reach out to oneof your guys down at 147 for
that.
But Um, nice either way is likeokay.
By that logic, I should not bewearing a masonic shirt, I
should not be wearing a masonicring, I shouldn't indicate to
the world at all that I'm afreemason, when the truth is,

(36:27):
the world can really benefitfrom freemasonry.
Yes, I mean yes.
And back to your, your point ofokay, why did I join, you know,
was it for monetary gain?
No, the reason why I joined is,uh, my dad passed away 15 years
ago, so I really don't have anyolder men that I could really
be around and say, hey, by theway, I've got this thing that
I'm facing.
I need some advice.
Or you know, hey, what wouldyou do in this scenario?

(36:49):
Or even even just iron sharpensiron out of proverbs, you know,
just, I didn't have that at all, especially in the, in the
groups that I was running with.
Of course, yeah, I do.
You know combatives and jujitsuand all this other stuff, and
those are great guys and Ireally enjoyed those guys, yeah,
but I really didn't have thatkind of brotherhood with anybody
.
But I click really really wellwith every, every Mason that

(37:10):
I've ever met.
I've always clicked really well.
And to kind of give you somecontext and background, I
researched masonry for 10 yearsbefore I ever joined.
The first guy that ever talkedto me about freemasonry I was in
my mid to early 20s.
Uh, his name is jesse car, andJesse car, uh, I love this man
to death.
So he's, he's like the grandpathat I never had.

(37:31):
You know he's, he's an amazingdude.
So, either way, I think he goesto hillsboro, if I remember
right.
But either way, okay, jesseasked me about it, so we got to
talking about it.
He was still under the oldschool rules of Well, you want
to be one, ask one, want to beone, ask one, and that's that's
where he left it.
So I'm like I'm gonna researchit because I've heard some weird
stuff about masonry and aboutfreemasons in general.
I took 10 years.

(37:53):
I've met masons.
I went around, looked at theirbuildings, I read books on it, I
, you know, listen to lectureson it, everything.
I have heard every conspiracytheory that you will ever hear
about freemasonry and I loveevery one of them because, like,
once you get in there, you know, I was telling a couple people,
whenever Some brothers fromlakeland, I was like, hey, by
the way, I'm getting raised, youknow, december, if y'all guys

(38:14):
want to come to it, and, by theway, I've already sourced out
the goats that we're gonna needfor it.
So and it's just, it's, it'sfun, it's funny.
Especially listen to some ofthe the conspiracy theories.
My sister-in-law sorry to gooff on a rabbit trail, but my
sister-in-law, whenever I toldher that I was joining masonry,
she looked at me.
She's like, matt, don't, don'tdo that.
Whatever you do, do not joinmasonry.

(38:34):
And I'm like, calm down, I'mlike it's not global domination,
it's literally just trying tomake you know good men better.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, so it's.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's been interesting .

Speaker 1 (38:43):
So how do?
How do they feel now that youare mason?
I mean, is there stillapprehension from some of your
family members that initiallyhad, or Are they come around, or
are they just being polite toyou saying, oh, Well they, they
packed up and moved to arkansas.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
So, uh, that's oh, wow, they're in a mouth of state
, yeah yeah, by guys.
Uh, no, so so I did tell them.
I said, hey, I will answer anyquestion you have within the
bounds of my obligation.
Um, so it's like, obviouslythere are certain things that I
cannot tell you, but there arecertain things that I can kind
of allude to.
So they'll ask me questionsabout.
You know what, about the 99thdegree mason?

(39:20):
And I'm like that's, it'sgarbage.
And they're like, what aboutgosh?
What is that?
Alistair Crowley and I was likeAlistair Crowley was never
amazing, yeah, yeah.
And you know Just some of thesethings that you know that get
thrown out there and they justget put on repeat.
For example, I've been listenedto a, the, the baptist minister
out of Arizona, arizona, Ithink.
I'm not going to say his namejust because I don't want to

(39:41):
start your trouble.
Uh, but he's got a seven partseries on free masonry where he
just sits there and just Hammersit left and right.
Surprisingly, he got a lot ofinformation correct, uh, so, for
example, whenever he was Um, hewas reciting a few things that
that we do within masonry, andit's some of the stuff he
actually got right and I waslike, wow, good for you, like

(40:01):
word for word, nailed it, andthen he's like, yeah, but that
is of the devil, and here's why.
And I'm like, okay, now youlost me.
You were so close man, you wereso close and the thing that got
me the most and this made melaugh the most is he was talking
about the york right and as hewas talking about, that yet so
as he was talking about the yorkright and he goes, and at the
end of the york right you haveto profess a faith in christ.

(40:22):
But even still, that's demonic,because of what I'm like, hold
on you literally, as a baptistminister just said that, uh,
professing your faith in christin an organization of men is of
the devil.
Break this down.
For me, my guy, it doesn't makesense.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
Because it's not in a church.
I guess that.
I guess that's maybe the hangup here's here, You're, you're,
you're professing yourchristianity in a different
group.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
That's not church and that's a threat to a church, if
you think about it 100%, andthat's the only thing that I
could come up with is what itseems like and even if you look
at, like the spat betweenmasonry and the rome of catholic
church and I have not done asmuch research on this as I want
to.
So my interesting, my verychange.
Um, yeah, but it seems like andespecially in the last gosh, I

(41:08):
don't know 100 years here in theunited states, that there has
been a, a Feminization of thescriptures.
Uh, they've softened the, themessage, and, and that's why,
that's why I like pastors, likea guy named mark driscoll, and
I'll I'll mention his namebecause his channel is
phenomenal.
I mean, his lessons are greatwhenever it comes to scripture
and men and how to be a man ofgod.
They're great.
But, um, but, either way, inlistening to what's happened in

(41:31):
the church over the last, say,hundred years or so, is they
talk more about the lamb andless about the lion.
They talk more about the familyof god and less about the
kingdom of god.
And so what did that do?
You kind of alienated men, ifyou look at and I'm not bashing
church.
I want to be clear guys Like Igo to church on them, um, you
know, active in my church.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I'm not bashing church but well, isn't that kind
of a tenant of christianity?
And forgive me because I'm nota pastor and or an authority in
any way, but my understanding isthat christianity is the
softening Of the jude, thejudieism.
Um, you have a new covenantWith god through jesus, and

(42:11):
jesus is a much softer,friendlier, loving Wave.
And the old way of an eye foran eye, tooth for a tooth, smite
them, strike them down.
Now we have christianity whereit's like turn the other cheek,
love your neighbors yourself,like it's.
It's inherently more soft.
So then the, then the older way.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
It depends on how it's taught, and so this is kind
of what I'm doing with my youngadult class, and I think this
is why my elders don't like meteaching the young adult class.
If you look at the concept ofturning the other cheek, if you
look at what was happeningculturally at the time, they had
a clean hand and a dirty hand.
One was an insult, one is thatI'm mad at you but you're my
equal.
But the way the church hastaught that for the longest time
is, oh, we just have to rollover and take it.

(42:50):
No, that's not exactly what itmeans.
If somebody asks you to go onemile, go with them too.
A roman chinchurian couldconscript a jew to carry his
stuff with him one mile.
If he carried them more thanthat, then the roman chinchurian
got in trouble.
So, and even if you look atchristin, how he interacted with
the fairies and sadducees, hejust didn't roll over and let
them have, or let them, you know, say whatever they wanted.

(43:11):
He spoke back and he wasconfident, he was bold.
Yeah, and that's kind of myopinion of, or that's kind of my
approach to, the scriptures, uh, and it's my approach to
basically life.
And so, for example, in ourchurch, uh, we have a young man
who's in the military.
Uh, he's currently in korea.
Um, but he, one of the elderlypeople in our church, got on

(43:32):
doing for his tattoos.
He's in the army, so of coursehe has tattoos.
And they were like well, youshouldn't have that, because in
leviticus it says that youshouldn't mark your body with
that at the dead.
And so he, I'm like, well, whatwas your response?
And he goes well, uh, I toldthem well, look at the church.
I mean, the church has stainedglass windows.
And I'm like, bro, why was thatyour argument?
I'm like, stay, stay inleviticus.
And he goes why it's your body?

(43:53):
Yeah, I'm like stay inleviticus because you can ask
that person hey, when was thelast time you had bacon?
One of the last time you ateshrimp or shellfish or anything,
hey, are you going to go outinto the local town and stone
the local gay people?
Because I want to be number twoin that line, because I want to
watch what happens, you know.
So it's just, it's funny and itmakes me laugh that the
teaching of the scriptures, um,I, I don't know of a single

(44:16):
church that that gets it ahundred percent right and I
don't have it a hundred percentright.
But just, the teaching of thescriptures has kind of been just
watered down over thegenerations.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
There's different books, uh, by different authors,
so it's not going to be aunified message.
You got different people withdifferent points of view, so you
can kind of understand that Oneauthor of one book might see a
situation differently Thananother author of a different
book talking about the samesituation, like that's common
right, we know that happens.

(44:46):
You and I can look at the samething and you can go like loved
it, and I'm like dude, that washideous and disgusting.
Yeah, like we have differentopinions on the same thing.
But.
But that's kind of.
I guess the point of anyreligion in in my limited
knowledge of all religions ofthe world is to teach moral

(45:07):
lessons to make us better people, and so I believe that what we
should be trying to do as goodpeople of faith is Trying to
take lessons of morality fromany story of how can I be better
, how can I live a better life.
And when you start trying tolike Interpret things in a way

(45:27):
that you're judging how otherpeople should live their lives,
you've lost your way a littlebit.
I think, personally, it shouldbe about you and your life and
how you can apply these thingsto your family to be better.
But, like you said, when yousee evil happening as you know,
jesus is famously flipping overtables in the right like what is

(45:48):
this like?
He's mad, yeah.
Yeah, you also have anobligation to fight for what is
right.
And you know, when you seesomething that isn't hurting
people, that is bad, takingadvantage of people, that's bad
for people, it's kind of yourobligation of a just man to
stand up and oppose that Thing,because it's hurting people and

(46:10):
it's bad for people and you'relying to people.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
And honestly, we've lost that as a society we really
have.
We've lost the ability to beable to disagree Healthily.
You know you and I were talkingabout that before we started
recording, but for sure you knowit.
Just because I disagree withyou it doesn't mean that I hate
you, you know, and for some oddreason we we totally missed that
along the line somewhere.
It's like you and I aren'tgonna agree 100% on everything,
or even worse.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
I actually do hate you and you agree with me.
That is the worst.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
So, my good, could you just disagree.
The same team, me and this guyyou tell me this guy is green.
Please, but especiallyespecially our young men and and
that was kind of you know,that's kind of my whole I don't
know what you would call itcrusade, I mean, but between my
church and free masonry, if youlook at the at the church and
you look at society as a whole,like young men are lost, like

(47:00):
they are so Lost, I mean, andyoung women as well.
I mean you've got like ageneration of only fans, content
creators, which is not good forsociety at all but the guys are
yeah, the deck is stackedagainst.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yes, yes, and so that's where I'm.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
I really like the lessons of free masonry and I
like the working that we have isbecause that can help a young
man become a good man.
Especially, I think I heard astatistic the other day that
like 50% of young males, minormales in the United States don't
have a father in the home.
That's not good for anybodybecause statistically, if you
don't have a father in the homeyou are statistically more

(47:37):
inclined to commit violent crime, to go to jail, to not be
successful in life.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
You know, and so I have a very conservative client
who's a friend very conservativeI mean, I've never met anyone
as conservative as him and hebrought up a fact to me that I
couldn't comprehend as beingtrue and that was that Children
of single parents where thefather is the single parent
Statistically do far better thanchildren of single parents

(48:05):
where the mother is the singleparent.
I refuse to accept that as real.
But then I did the research andhe's absolutely right.
The fact support.
The case that a single fatheractually Statistically will have
a healthier, more well-adjustedchild than a single mother Blew
my mind.
Blew my mind because I grew upwith just a mom in the home.

(48:25):
You know, I have a dad, so Iwas prejudiced by my own
experience.
I had a hard time acceptingthat fact.
It's a fact, and that that isgoes back to your point of there
is a perception that if theman's gone, oh well, good,
whatever, we don't need him.
But actually you do need theman.
It is the masculine and thefeminine.

(48:47):
Those two opposing views createa more well-adjusted Hopefully,
if they have a goodrelationship child.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
It does and he both.
And again, this is wheresociety has kind of gone off the
rails and and excuse me forgetting up on my soapbox for a
minute, but this is where it'skind of gone off the rails is
because, like you know, my wifeand I, you know, we've got a
little two-year-old here at home.
I Love, cherish and respect mywife more than any person on
this planet.
There is absolutely no questionabout that.

(49:16):
But is it up to my wife to todo the heavy lifting around here
?
Is it up to my wife to instilldiscipline?
Is it up to my wife to fill upher truck?
Last night, at nine o'clock atnight, we were filling up a
Sam's Club, you know.
So, you know, there's certainthings.
It's like, yeah, we both havevery important roles in this
house, but they're not the sameand for some odd reason in
society, and I don't, I don'tknow where we can attribute this

(49:38):
to.
I mean, I have some thoughts,but yeah, it came to a point
where it's like, oh, men andwomen are fundamentally
interchangeable, and it's likewe're not, though we're both
needed and we're both needed todo what we are good at doing.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
So, like I'm in a pretty progressive household, my
wife is very conservative,russian, ukrainian Orthodox.
Yeah, she's Ukrainian, nowRussian.
There's a difference and so shehad a very specific upbringing
that was more like yours,probably very structured in the

(50:11):
Christian faith, and Women havea specific role in a
conservative upbringing.
Very clear delineation ization.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
I mean, our dynamic here is a little bit different.
So, for example, I'm a verylogical person.
Emotions just don't click withme at all.
I've never really understoodhighly emotional males.
I don't understand highlyemotional females, you know.
I just I don't comprehend it.
I'm like why are you cryingover the wind changing direction
?
I don't, yeah, yeah.

(50:41):
So whenever it comes to, forexample, parenting, my wife is
phenomenal at being thatemotional, yeah, aspect to
raising our daughter, andrightfully so, my daughter for
her being to first off.
So she's too, and she'll have afull blown conversation with
you.
Like just sit down with you andhave a conversation.
I'm like you are too.
You are still wearing a diaper.

(51:01):
Why are you telling me youropinion about anything?
So, but either way, you know mywife is really good at that and
I'm really good at beingconsistent on discipline.
So you have our two-year-oldthat yesterday.
No, we, we forgot her sweaterhere at the house and it was a
little chilly here down here inFlorida yesterday.
So I take the sweater out to mymom's house.
She's over at Nana's and youknow I was like hey, by the way,

(51:23):
I brought your sweater, youforgot it home.
Oh, thank you, daddy, and itlike just thanking me over and
over again.
So it's like, okay, we're kindof doing something right here.
You know, it's, something goodis happening because you have a
two-year-old that is remarkablypolite, that is and I'm not
saying that we're perfectparents, not what I'm saying to
be clear Sure, but you know it'slike okay, that that too, what

(51:44):
is that I mean?

Speaker 1 (51:45):
yeah, what even is a perfect parent Is that even a
thing Is there well, it's justkind of highlight the, the
dynamic of getting both aspectsof it.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
And so, for example, we were talking about church
earlier and you can apply thisto masonry as well.
But in church it's especiallyin the denomination that I go to
they're very, very adamant thatwomen do not have a role in the
church at all.
Some of the more conservativechurches in our area, with the
same name on the side of thebuilding, they insist that women
actually cover their heads.
They're like a step away fromSharia law.

(52:14):
It's crazy.
So right, yeah, and even still,the funny thing about that,
where they take it out of isPaul's writings and like two
sentences later he says by theway, we don't do that here.
So I'm like guys, read thewhole, read the whole context.
So, but either either way, alot of the women in our church I
shouldn't say a lot, but adecent number of the women in
our church.
One of them is said to me atone point.
She's like I want all therights in church that men can

(52:35):
have, and I'm like hold on,first off, you do, and then,
secondly, why do you want thatresponsibility?
And I asked her.
I was like are you gonna get upand lead singing?
Are you gonna get up and andpreach services.
I, oh god no, I hate being infront of people and I'm like,
hold on that, like that spirit.
We need to address that rightthere, that that mentality,
because in societies it's like Iwant everything that a man

(52:57):
could do, you know, and it'slike, well, you can Do.
You really want to do that?
Should you really do that?
Or should a good man do thatfor you?
Should a good man make you feelcomfortable in the roles that
best suit your personalitytraits?
And of course, you know, rightto take it back to Masonry, you
know, here we are on the levelwhich, by the way, I think
you've grabbed me on, but ofcourse.

(53:17):
But as we're considering Masonry, you know there's gonna be
certain men within the lodgelike we've got men in our lodge
that they don't want to sit in achair, they don't want to get
in the line, they don't want todo anything, they want to be a
support role.
I'm one of those that I havenever minded at all, being the
nail that sticks out Does notbother me.
You know the nail that sticksout is gonna get wet, but

(53:37):
doesn't bother me in the least.
You know what needs to get done.
Let's just get it done, let'sjust get it over with.
And maybe that's my time inconstruction that that has me.
No, on construction sites youhave guys that are like on the
leader, on the leader, and I'mlike I don't care, where am I
supposed to throw a hammer at,let's go.
So yeah, that's kind of mymindset behind it.
And again, you know, gettingback to the tenants of free
Masonry, it's I really genuinelyI want to share the tenants of

(54:01):
free Masonry Honestly with the,with the generation of men that
are now lost you know, because,again, yeah, and free Masonry it
really doesn't have a stance ona woman's role in society or a
man's role in society.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
It doesn't really enter into that, because what
we're focused on is ourselves,right, like how can we be better
To our wives, how can we bebetter to our employees, how can
we be better to our citizens,our fellow citizens, like, this
is what we're focused on, isFixing us.
We're not really trying todelineate your job or his job,
or, sure, her job, which is agreat thing about free Masonry.

(54:36):
It really is focused onimprovement and getting better,
and part of that is toleranceFor things that we don't
understand, and you get that forsure in the fraternity.
I mean that that first workingtool is all about Tolerance to
it, in a certain extent, likecircumscribing your passions is
that's what that means?

(54:57):
Yeah, it means you know you,you believe strongly about a
specific thing and that youshould, but according to your
personal views and what'simportant to you, but within due
balance, right, you know.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
I got a funny story about that on Tuesday whenever I
showed up for Lodge the Yorkright.
The local York right has, Iguess, a storage closet at our
building and their sign is outon the front porch but it's
laying on its side and all thisother stuff.
So I was like, hey, yeah, Isaid something about York right
and cleaning up all the garbage,you know, cause it's an older

(55:33):
lodge, so like we've got like a1970s boom box sitting up there
and it hasn't worked in like 30years.
But you know, we just got likelittle piles of junk all over
the place.
I'm like guys, like let me geta roll off dumpster here and
let's take a Saturday or two andlet's just get the junk out of
here and just kind of clean theplace up a little bit, maybe
slap a fresh coat of paint on,like let's do something like
that.
And I got a little hyper in theconversation and a worstful,

(55:56):
worstful Mason.
He goes now Matt, you'regetting a little hyper and I
will remind you about the traveland I said okay, fair enough.
And then, I kid you not, itwent.
20 minutes later we're insideand he starts getting hyper
talking about somebody at thegrotto and I said now, dave, I'm
gonna remind you about thetravel, all right, check them.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
There's nothing better in this world than using
somebody's words against I meanreally, that is like the
ultimate.
I'm having the best day when Ican throw somebody's words
against them in a situation likethat.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Oh no.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I just feel satisfied ?

Speaker 2 (56:30):
No, but by all means.
Dave was just busting my chopsand you know whenever he said
that.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
And you were doing the same.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
You're just hollowing up, busting his chops, and
that's what's so nice aboutMasonry and being at Lodge is
it's like look, I can.
For example, dave is 80 yearsold.
This man is he's closer toMethuselah in age than he is to
me.
This man is ancient, right?
I've said this to his face too,and then he flicked me off
right afterwards.
But the funny thing is Withlove, yeah, exactly With love
and compassion he flipped youoff.

(56:55):
But the funny thing is it's likeall right, if you look at like
there's a split in the boomergeneration.
So the elderly boomers aretypically sassy, like they're
super sassy, and so if you givethem the sass back, they like
you for it.
You know they're like okay,yeah, we're gonna do it along
really well.
But you get a younger boomer,somebody who's in their gosh I
don't know 50s or 60s at thispoint, you know.
And if they give you sass andyou give the sass back to them,

(57:19):
they pearl clutch.
They're like how could you everbe so disrespectful?
And it's like hold on, I justdid what you did, but I did it
back to you.
So it's fun, and in Lodge youkind of get some of that.
The older sassy generation youknow where they like the banter,
they like the going back andforth.
So, I love it.
I mean, I have discovered agroup of brothers and friends a

(57:41):
sacred band or society, if youwill to where it is so nice and
refreshing, to where it's like.
I'm in an area where, with theexception of like one or two
dudes in my Lodge, I cangenuinely let my guard down and
I can sit here, I can chat, Ican, you know, we can joke back
and forth.
I can trust their word.
More often than not, that's abig factor for me.

(58:02):
You know, if you say you'regonna do it, do it.
You know just, life is thateasy for me.
But and I think the world needsto see more of that.
But back to our earlier part ofsome of the greater threats
that we need to address withinMasonry.
I think a big portion of whatwe need to address actually is a
lot of this stupid conspiracycrap that's going on about
Masonry, because what you have Ithink it was last year we had,

(58:25):
what was it?
Three or four brothers thatwere gunned down outside of a
Lodge last year.
So, or in the previous coupleof years.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
In Florida.
In Florida we had two Lodgesset on fire, I think last year.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
So and where they're getting this from is these are,
of course, every group is gonnahave them.
They're gonna have theextremists, and so that's kind
of where you know these peopleare listening to some of these
preachers or lecturers orwhatever the case might be, and
I am, I mean, knee deep into allof it, you know, because I want
to learn what they're saying soI can combat it.

(58:56):
And so one of the things theytalk about in the conspiracy
realm so I'm not gonna talkabout what Masonry has of it,
but the conspiracy realm is theytalk about Jebulon.
Now, as of right now I have notgone down the Scottish right I
have no clue who Jebulon is.
I have no clue, but they saythat it is a deity made up of
three individuals and it'ssupposed to be Yahweh Baal and

(59:19):
Osiris from Egyptian, and I'mlike, hold on the little bit
that I know about Jebulon.
That's not accurate, you know.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
At all who's saying this.
Is this a religious conspiracytheory?
Yes, it's a religiousconspiracy theory.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
But I think if Masonry could get out in front
of people and speak about withinour obligations be clear if we
could speak about Masonry withinour obligation and about what
we are, who we are, get in frontof the public a little bit more
, I think it would be phenomenal.
A lot of these preachers thatare out there talking about this

(59:55):
.
They keep referencing differentthings, you know.
For example, they referenceAlbuquerque, smalls and Dogma.
I started listening to that andI had to turn it off.
It was incoherent ramblings tome because I had not been down
either to York or Scottish rightyet.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Still, and really it's a recounting of the
Scottish right degrees and theirmeanings and stuff like that.
Why would you listen to that ifyou're not a Scottish right?

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
It's completely total rambling, incoherent, Like I
could not understand any of itand I'm a master Mason and it's
like how are you, some minister,how are you able to interpret
everything that Albert Pike'swriting?
And I'm in it and I don'tunderstand it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
What their biggest hangup of anything Albert right
is written or said is that hereferences Lucifer in one of his
writings.
And I'm not gonna get into thatinto the weeds right now, but
go back and look at what Lucifermeant and Albert Pike's day and
what he was referencing.
I mean, it certainly wasn't adevil, but you say the word and

(01:00:57):
it has connotations and meaningsto religious people that are
clear.
You don't have to explain whensomeone says Lucifer that they
could be talking about the deviland so it's just really.
It's really easy for them topick those things out of context
and use them against us andthere's literally nothing you
can say.
There's not a word, there's nosituation you can show them that

(01:01:22):
is ever gonna change their mindon how they feel about it.
So free masonry wisely, I thinkhas decided as a system not to
engage in those debates withnon-mesons, because you can't
win it.
All you're gonna do is digtheir position in even deeper
and deeper and deeper the moreyou try to talk to them about it

(01:01:42):
.
So I think what you're sayingis along with my beliefs too,
which is let's just be visible.
I'm gonna show people what wedo as mason.
It's who we really are as masonand let them draw their
conclusions based on my takingaccounting of my life when I die
and look back at it and show mewhere I was doing evil, satanic

(01:02:04):
things.
I live proudly as a mason and Ihelped people and I did my best
and that's what people will saywhen I die, hopefully, and
don't use me, cause I'm not asaint, but use a good mason and
put them in that role andbecause I attend a lot of
Masonic funerals and you lookback at their life and look at
their children and look at theircoworkers and look at the
things they've done and the markthey've made, then they were

(01:02:27):
proudly masons and that shouldspeak to who we are as a
fraternity.
You can't sit and have a debateabout the use of Lucifer as a
reference to the Morning Starand what that means in history,
in different cultures, indifferent religions,
non-christian because you'renever gonna have, they're never
gonna listen, first of all,openly and honestly probably not

(01:02:50):
, and you can't changesomebody's mind once they get
into that mindset.
So you're wasting your time andyou're wasting their time and
so what's the point?
That's kind of where I'vefallen in the whole thing.
It's like why are we gonna?
What's the point?
We talk about the myth, a lotof what people say about masonry

(01:03:10):
, just cause it's funny to us asbig as this.
And really the scenarios of howthat got into.
The ethos is also reallyinteresting and I think it's
interesting stories to tell andlisten to.
And it's also wise to know, asa mason, how this stuff got out,
where it came from, so thatyou're educated when you hear it
.
But none of that stuff ischanging anybody's mind, none of

(01:03:31):
it.
Yeah, it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
I'm aware of that.
I'm more so on the side ofwhat's right is right.
And I don't care who or where itcomes from, it's just what's
right is right.
And hearing some of the stuffthat I do about masonry and it's
like all right, well, you wannatalk about Albert Pike in his
book, or you wanna talk aboutAlistair Crowley, who was not a
mason?
Yeah, you wanna talk aboutthose things, but yet you're not

(01:03:56):
gonna talk about GeorgeWashington.
You're not gonna talk aboutthose all drink.
You're not gonna talk about allthe good people that have done
well, or Jefferson Sorry, notJefferson Benjamin Franklin.
You're not gonna talk aboutthese people who built this
nation, this country that youare in.
And even still our government isset up.

(01:04:16):
I didn't realize this.
Our government is set up.
Remarkably the way a masoniclodge operates or it's supposed
to at least.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
We're living in a masonic experiment.
This country is literally amasonic experiment in how, if
you formed a government off offree masonry, could it thrive
and survive?
This is the country, this isthe experiment built by masons
on masonry, and it has changedand worked over time, obviously,
but I think the ideals are inthere, they're baked into it.

(01:04:47):
All men are created equal, mineone under God, mine two.
We care about our faith.
We care about each other.
We treat each other withrespect.
We have tolerance for eachother.
This stuff, our democraticprocess, is a fraternal one.
This is how we've run ourorganization since time
immemorial.
We say that we've been aroundsince 1717.

(01:05:11):
I'm no one actually believesthat.
I don't think.
But you gotta have a date tostart from and that's the first
time we have public declarations, so we chose that date.
I don't think any legitimatemason truly believes that we
weren't practicing masonry priorto 1717.
Especially, we can find scrollsand references in the 13 and

(01:05:34):
1500s referencing some of thestuff we do in masonry, and
there's direct tie-ins to theKnights Temple or which is a lot
of where the York Rites comingfrom and I am a York Rite mason
and I went through those degreesand what they're asking you is
not to declare your belief inJesus Christ as your personal

(01:05:57):
savior, which is themisconception.
What they're asking you in theYork Rite is would you defend
Christianity with your life?
And if you can't answer thathonestly, you shouldn't be a
York Rite mason.
But I have Jewish friends thatare York Rite masons because
they said I would defendanybody's right to their

(01:06:19):
personal faith with my life.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
I believe in freedom, and so that's how they
justified it, and we're able totruthfully answer yes to that
and become proud York Rite masonyou know it's interesting you
say that, especially wheneverwe're considering the way the
United States is set up is oneof the gripes that the church
has against free masonry is thatyou can have a Quran on the

(01:06:42):
altar, you can swear upon aQuran, that it's not exclusively
a Christian organization,therefore it's not the devil,
and I'm like well then, youshouldn't join your local YMCA
like, or a local golf club?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Again, it's kind of like and don't vote for any
political party.
Yeah, it's kind of like wheredo you draw the line?

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
So, for example or not, for example, but
considering that of masonry isokay.
If you swear your obligation oryou take your obligation on a
Quran, they're totally okay withthat.
And if you look at the way theUnited States is set up, there
was no, even though we were kindof sort of founded based upon
masonic and Christian values.

(01:07:20):
There still is that openness ofhey, here in the United States
of America, you can practicewhatever religion you want.
There is not a certain setreligion.
You can be a non-believer ifyou want.
I think that's probably one ofthe things that I honestly I
appreciated, even though I sawwhere the preacher was coming
from whenever he was talkingabout like it should be
inherently Christian and I'mlike hold on, our country is not

(01:07:44):
inherently Christian.
The nation in which we resideis not, so I don't see any.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
I mean I would concede that it is definitely
the predominant religion in ourcountry, for sure.
And in Florida masonry I meanmost guys I know are Christian,
they go to church, they're goodChristian guys, but that doesn't
make it exclusively that andthat's kind of how our nation is
.
Although the people that formedit were predominantly Christian

(01:08:12):
, no doubt they were also masonsand they understood the value
of not tying yourself to aspecific thing in dogma, and so
our nation is supposed to beaccepting of anyone's faith, as
long as they follow our laws.
As long as you're gonna be agood American, then we're okay
with you and that's kind of howfree masonry is.

(01:08:33):
We have our laws, and as longas you're a good mason, those
things don't really matter to us.
You go home and you go tochurch.
For those things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
You come to masonry for a completely different
reason and that's another thingthat they talk about is they're
like oh well, free masonry talksabout that it has its own paths
of salvation, and I'm like, no,it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
No, that's definitely not true.
You're supposed to have thatbefore you come to the doors
here.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
Yeah, but before you ever enter to the West.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Free condition and joining free masonry.
Actually you have to sign onyour petition that you already
believe something along thoselines before you come.
So that's easy to dispel.
You can go on any Grand Lodgewebsite anywhere in the world
and look at a petition and seethat you have to already believe
that before you come here.
So we're not giving you anykind of belief in a deity

(01:09:23):
necessarily.
Now, if you would be exposed Idon't think you can deny that to
other religious ideas in thefraternity because I view it as
more of like a picking.
It's a moral lesson thing.
They're picking moral lessonsfrom different situations and
different religious backgroundsto tell a moral lesson and often
they pick a minor character.

(01:09:44):
Although it's there, it's not abig character but they create a
story around it for creativelicense to tell a moral lesson
Love the Master Mason degree.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Because as soon as they reference the character we
all know that I'm talking aboutin the Master Mason degree and
I'm like oh, I know, that's nota first Kings, like I remember
exactly where that came from andI was like yay.
I know what this is.
You know, in the fellow craft Iactually like the fellow craft
degree the best.
The fellow craft degree wasphenomenal, especially all the

(01:10:14):
information on there.
And then you've got the windingstairs and everything that's on
there.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Well, because it represents more of where you're
at in your life.
Like the fellow craft degree into a Mason represents the Mason
in the prime of his life.
Like you're learning science,math, arithmetic, how to speak
eloquently Like these are alllessons in the fellow craft
degree and that's where we're atin our life.
We're in the prime where we'reworking then.

(01:10:42):
And the Master Mason degree isdefinitely much more about the
end of your life, sometimesliterally and sometimes
figuratively about the end andwhere it's all going.
So I think that's definitely areason a lot of us identify with
the fellow craft degree themost, because that's kind of

(01:11:03):
where we're at in our life rightnow Speaking of the Master
Mason degree and how you justdescribed it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Excuse me.
So this past Thanksgiving and Iwant to ask your opinion on
this, but this past Thanksgivingthere was a guy who secretly
recorded a Master Mason degree,chopped it up and then posted it
all on Twitter.
A Mason or a non-Mason?
A Mason, he was in the degree.
So for some odd reason he wasallowed to sit in the room.

(01:11:28):
He described himself as ajournalist I'll send you the
link later on but he posted theentire thing.
But he mislabeled so manythings of this is where they
ceremoniously kill this guy.
There are screams coming from aback room and I'm like hold on.
I haven't been through thedegree yet, but I know what that
is, or at least I'm familiarwith it at least and that kind

(01:11:51):
of fans the flames of thenegative connotation that
society has towards Masonry.
If someone has a negativeconnotation, but for that
specific guy I'm not even goingto call him a brother.
In my opinion he's a jackass.
But for this specific guy, whatcan Masonry do to correct that?
I mean, is there something thatwe can file to get those videos

(01:12:12):
taken down or press?

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
charges on the guy.
What are?

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
your thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Yeah, I mean we have a digest from the Sonic Law
which is published in our casein Florida on the Grand Lodge of
Florida's website for all tosee what our Masonic Laws are.
You won't find in there thatyou can't say secrets of
Freemasonry necessarily.
But we also take obligationsunder our God and to us that

(01:12:41):
supersedes law.
And so when we take anobligation that we won't reveal
the secrets of Freemasonry, thatis something that if you break
it or any of the other thingsthat we oblige ourselves to in
our obligations, you're legallyable to be removed from the
fraternity as a Mason because ofthat.
So we can file charges againstthe person and if we can prove

(01:13:04):
that he actually did revealthings that he promised that he
wouldn't as a Mason, he can beejected from the fraternity
forever.
A Masonic trial leads to one ofthree things.
You can either be censured,which means a slap on the wrist
like huh, you know those, butyou can be suspended
indefinitely or for a set amountof time.
Or you can be expelled, and thetrial would determine the

(01:13:31):
people that are in the trialwould determine the penalty and
that's going to be case by case.
But that's a pretty egregiouscase and I could see somebody
getting expelled for that, andthen you've got to fight the
fight to get it removed.
The thing is, all the secretsare already out there.
They're all out there and thisis what I tell my wife, who is
very concerned about the secret.

(01:13:52):
Part of the fraternity is nowthat I have them.
It's nothing to be concernedabout.
We're talking about.
We really don't reveal thesesecrets out of tradition, not
because they're earth-shatteringsecrets that are going to
change anything for anybody.
It's like I'm going to callthis a schnicket.
We all agree this is now aschnicket.

(01:14:13):
Like that's the level ofsecrets we're keeping.
Okay, it's modes of recognition, it's ways that we can
recognize each other anddetermine where we're at in the
degrees.
And yes, we keep them secretbecause at one point it was
important to keep those secretsand now it's not.
But out of tradition, we honorour fraternity and our our past
and our history and ourtraditional way of keeping those

(01:14:34):
secrets.
As a brotherhood.
It kind of is a uniting thing.
We all are on the same pagewith those few things.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
So I have another question for you.
So obviously in the masterMason obligation there is a
section about women masons orfemale masons.
But yet whenever you look atthe Grand Lodge of England they
have a whole group of GrandLodge acknowledged women masons.
Is there no real communicationbetween Grand Lodge here in the

(01:15:04):
United States and Grand Lodge ofEngland?
How does that work out?
Because again, I'm still tryingto get a lay of the land here.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
Yeah, most definitely there's communication.
So we have what's called everystate in the United States has
its own jurisdiction and eachjurisdiction is ruled by its own
governing body we call theGrand Lodge.
So our grand jurisdictionseither recognize each other
officially or don't, and if theyhave official recognition then

(01:15:32):
we can have them son ofcommunication as brothers,
regardless.
If we don't recognize, then weare forbidden from having son of
communication with thosebrothers.
It becomes especially difficultwhen you find a jurisdiction
that has two bodies claiming tobe both claiming to be the
original grand, and so now wehave to figure out which one are
we supposed to recognize, andso this becomes a whole big

(01:15:55):
political problem at that level.
And if you go up there you'regoing to your mind's going to be
blown at how much crap goes on.
And it is going on right now,in fact, with Grand Lodge, and I
think Paraguay, there's an oldGrand Lodge and a new Grand
Lodge started up and is muchmore savvy and got a bunch of
recognitions, because a lot ofjurisdictions didn't know about

(01:16:18):
the old one.
And so now there's somecontention about do we recognize
the old one or everyone else isrecognizing the new one, but we
kind of should recognize theoriginal one right and this is
causing some contention in thestates among the different
jurisdictions about who torecognize.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Well in.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
Texas.
So it's really fascinating.
But we recognize the GrandLodge of England even though
they have women maces, tansy orso it seems like Texas almost
went through that recently.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
And I gotta tell you I tried to follow it as much as
I could.
You know, being At the time Iwas profane and an EA and then
fellowcraft and I'm like I haveno clue what's going on, but all
this sounds really juicy.
So, as I was listening to itand in the fact that 34, 3500
people showed up and just it was7000.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
7000.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
Oh gosh 7000 showed up.
That is insane to me.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
It's like that's how much those brothers cared about
taking back their jurisdiction,the corruption that had really
come over at Lee Ramsey there,wow, and it happens.
It happens.
I mean, you're a new mason, youcertainly must be starting to
see it in your own lodge.
There are some people in theleadership positions that abuse

(01:17:35):
that position and are not actingmasonically, and that goes on
at every level of the fraternity.
It happens at the districtlevel, it happens at the Grand
Lodge level and it's up to.
We have to police ourselves.
We have to prevent that fromhappening by not, like you said
in the beginning, when we weretalking about Jesus, he got

(01:17:56):
awfully pissed off when he sawthings going on that weren't
right, and that's how I believewe, as mason, should behave.
Every time you turn a blind eyeand let that stuff go on,
you're now responsible for itgetting worse.
Nothing, because you could havesaid something.
You could have tried to bringit to light or at least raise a

(01:18:17):
red flag and notify people thatyou see it going on and you're
not okay with it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
The thing that's gotten me and masonry, because
this I don't understand.
So I hold an HVAC license herein the state of Florida.
I'm Nate certified.
I hold a certified buildercontractor or building
contractors license.
So whenever it comes to beingwell-qualified, as it were, I've
got some accolades that I couldput underneath my name.
But I never do, you know.

(01:18:42):
If anybody that I talk to Idon't care if they're the CEO or
the doorman I'm going to treatthem all 100% equal on the level
, if you will.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
So either way.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
the thing that I don't understand and I'm not
going to mention who they are,because there are so many of
them, it's insane is the guysthat have the accolades or
they've got the different coloraprons or they've got, or
they're a district guy andthere's a bit of a pompous.
You know, outside of lodgethere's a pompous.
First off, I surely do not haveall the titles right it's like

(01:19:14):
am I supposed to call you worstfull or right worst full or most
whatever, like grand and alien?
I don't know what to call you,so there's yeah there's that.
And then there's, like said,some of the pompous nature to it
.
I really hope in the nextgeneration of masonry we can
kind of address that and I seethat kind of filtering itself
out.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
But I hope that's true because here's the thing
I'm already in line.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
I mean, you know, realistically, probably five,
six years away from sitting inthe East, if I even want to do
that.
Yeah, I don't want people tosit there and trip over
themselves and be like, oh, I'msorry, I should call you worst
full Dude, I don't care, likeI'm a bald ugly guy, just treat
me as such, Like it's totallyfine.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Yeah, especially outside, like we.
You know, if you look at ourgovernment, our system of
government, for example, when,when a Senate is in session,
things become very formal, andthis is how it is in Freemasonry
when we have a statedcommunication, we're doing a
formal business meeting, and sowe refer to each other by our

(01:20:15):
proper titles.
Now, when you're out in thestreet I don't think anybody is
is called like I highly doubtthat a Senator's friend is
calling him Senator so and sowhen they're having a beer at a
restaurant, like they that's andthat's how it's, in my mind,
should be in Freemasonry.
Like soon as we step out thelodge, my title is in the lodge

(01:20:36):
room.
I'm just Chris and I have guysthat are that are previous
students and you know, oncethey're master masons we were
still in touch and they call meworshipful burns and I'm like my
name's Chris, that that's itfor the law.
Okay, if you refer to me in ameeting, you call me worshipful
burns, that's great, but youdon't text me that, okay, and

(01:20:58):
I'm trying to teach them how tobe a Mason, like I don't think
that should be a thing.
I don't think we and I knowthey're doing it out of respect,
because that's how I was when Istarted.
I wanted to learn the titlesout of respect and make sure I
always use the right titles, butthe good guys in the fraternity
always told me why don't worryabout it, just call me brother,
like that's the best title.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
I know you did that to me not long ago.
I think I called you a coupleweeks back and you picked up the
phone and I was like, even inworshipful master he goes, you
saved that shit for the lodge.

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
I don't like it, man, I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
There's a right worshipful that visited our
lodge from Kentucky this pastTuesday and he said something to
me that I thought wasinteresting and there's a
concept that we can extrapolatefrom it.
So I'm Junior Deacon, I did myproficiency give back on Monday,
so I had to take off my jewelsand relinquish that to somebody
else.
So he took over that role forme and I asked him.

(01:21:52):
I was like all right, like doyou need my apron?
Do you need the jewels?
Like do I hit you with thestaff?
Like what am I supposed to dohere?
And he goes.
Well, the jewels are married tothe chair.
He goes.
So whenever you, whenever youget up and walk around, if
you're not the Junior Deacon atthat moment, the jewels stay on
the chair and that and theydon't go anywhere else.
And he made a big deal aboutthat with like two other people
as well that night on Tuesdayand the concept that you can

(01:22:15):
extrapolate from that iswhenever you're talking about
the titles, it's married to thechair and it's married to the
jewels, Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:21):
So at least that's the lesson that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):
I took from it.
I don't know if I took theright lesson from it, but I
think that's exactly the rightlesson to take from it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
We tell that in the inner-deprentice lecture.
It's part of the lecture wherewe say the jewels will always be
found in their respectivestations in the lodge, even
though the brothers will change,the jewels are always there
Because that station is, andthat's the same in our
government, right, we have apresident.
I think where we fall off is wehave to call a Mr President for

(01:22:51):
the rest of his life.
And you know, do we though?
Okay, cool, I guess you know wedo the same thing.
I'll be worshipful burns now inthe fraternity for the rest of
my life.
I can't shed myself on thattitle because I held it.
But again, like, if I was tohang out with like Ronald Reagan
, I sure would like to call himRon, not like President Reagan,
when I was hanging out having adrink with him.

(01:23:13):
Sure, if we did an interview orsome public thing or we did an
event, he would be president soand so.
But it's kind of a pompous,arrogant thing to make people
call you that when you'rebehaving on a personal level or
even a you know, not an overtlyMasonic event.
It's kind of shitty to try tomake people do that and you know

(01:23:35):
the best Masons I ever met, nomatter how high they went and
I've interviewed grandmasterswhile they're sitting they're
totally fine with being calledthe brother.
If you can't know their titleand you're introducing them,
which you will have to do as ajunior deacon, I've seen it
happen to junior deacons they'retrying to introduce a visiting
dignitary and they're stumblingover the title.

(01:23:56):
I've seen the guys just call mebrother and they're happy with
that.
Okay, you know brother,so-and-so, and bring them in,
we'll figure out the title later.
Yeah, a good Mason's not gonnaget caught up on that kind of
stuff.
I mean, it's a ritualisticthing and we always miss words.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
So, and I imagine it's also based off of
personality.
So, to tell you a story thatyou already know because you
were there, we have a brother.
I'm not gonna mention thebrother's name and I'm not gonna
mention the the district guywho was there but he had to play
the role of senior deacon andhe messed up.
He messed up part of his rolein senior deacon and in the

(01:24:34):
moment the, the craft correctedhim, but the district guy
afterward came in and justripped him and knew it.
Now, mind you, the district guyis like half the size and he's
maybe 120 pounds soaking wet.
But either way, it was so funnythe guy, the brothers respond
because he was like look, I loveyou, you are my brother, but I
will destroy you in this moment.

(01:24:55):
I just don't understand thatlike it doesn't click.
For me it doesn't compute.
Nobody gets better based off ofsome of those Mindsets and
again, I have only met maybefour guys from the district,
maybe four, and I've hadpleasant interactions with all
of them, you know.
So I have not had a negativeinteraction.
I'm just going based off ofstories that I've heard, stories

(01:25:18):
, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
It happens, a hundred percent it happens.
And you'll find people and Iknow we've had this Conversation
about this exact situation andsomebody else will say I don't
believe it, I never had thatexperience with that person
myself, right, and it's like,well, that doesn't mean it, it's
not happening To somebody else.
You know, we have to always asmasons Because we really are big

(01:25:45):
on titles and it's somethingthat's always bothered me about
the fraternity that we're on thelevel but like I got to know
that you're a right worship fulldistrict deputy grandmaster, I
have to know that you're a righthonorable district instructor.
That's not have to know thatyou're a most worshipful, I have
to know you're the district youknow.
Come on, man, like I thought wewere brothers here.

(01:26:07):
It doesn't.
There's a lot of things thatdon't match up to me and and I
really don't, that's why I thinkthe heart of the fraternity
isn't about that title meaninganything in reality outside of a
business meeting, because weneed delineation of roles.
In a business meeting there isa hierarchy of order to things,

(01:26:27):
but outside of that You'regetting into just ego bullshit.
At that point it's not reallyuseful to anybody, well, and so
I don't see the fraternitycaring about that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Outside.
My dad taught me something along time ago and my dad was a
super wise man.
He was approached by freemasonry to join and he's just
like, I don't have the time forthat crap.
But, um, my dad would have madea phenomenal mason.
I mean a, truly my, my dadwould have been a.
He would have gone down thedistrict line like he would have
gone all the way up to the top.
But Dad told me at one point hegoes, son, the world needs

(01:26:59):
ditch diggers and it needs CEOs,and you need to treat them all
equal.
And and that's kind of the waythat I look at it is, you know,
we need in the craft, we needthe guys that are in the grand
line, we need the guys who arethe inter-apprentices.
We need them, all you know, inorder for the craft to succeed.
Yeah, so oh, I don't understandthe concept of giving a
negative experience to a brotherwho's younger in the craft.

(01:27:20):
And again, I have not had oneyet, except for one guy.
I told you about that before westarted, but, um, either way, I
don't understand that of hey,this guy's brand new, he's
trying to do something, he'strying to step up.
I'm really gonna ruffle hisfeathers and I'm like hold on,
like I'm taking onresponsibilities and masonry
that haven't been touched in twoor three years.

(01:27:40):
No one's done this or trying togrow our individual lodge.
Why should there be a barrierbetween me and that goal,
resistance between me and thatgoal?
when you could actually help mewith this, you know, and we
could actually do this.
And is it just because you'renot getting the attention for it
?
Is it?
I don't know what?

Speaker 1 (01:27:59):
it is, it doesn't.
We need to make sure that we'reteaching ourselves to behave
like masons, because if you'renot doing it in the lodge,
you're not gonna do it on thestreet.
Yeah, well, I consider.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
I mean, excuse me.
I mean I go back to the wisewords of Batman, and I realized
Ronald Reagan said it first, butit meant something with Batman
said it of a rising tide raisesall ships, you know.
And so I've always told peopleno, sorry, that's a Russian
proverb.
I'm thinking trust but verify,sorry about that.
So I think, said that I'vealways kind of told people as a

(01:28:30):
reference, like Cooney I've toldthis to Cooney a lot, you know,
in business.
I want the people around me tosucceed, you know.
So a rising tide raises allships and I will be that rising
tide.
I want to be able to lifteverybody up, you know, and I
want to be able to work as hardas I possibly can.
You don't want one boat that'ssitting there elevating
themselves above the water.
First off, that's weird andphysically that can't happen.
But secondly, is what you wantis okay if all of us are doing

(01:28:54):
well and the whole craft isdoing better, like then it your
first off, your title doesn'tmatter.
But then, secondly, this is abetter experience for everybody
involved.
We can have more people come into do Masonic education.
We can have more interactionwith the public.
We can have more young men thatare out there in the public
that are broken and have no home.
We can shine a light and sayhey, by the way, the square

(01:29:15):
encompasses are on the wall,come see us.
You know, that's kind of mymindset, it's kind of my thought
process.
But again, whenever you look atno, that's.

Speaker 1 (01:29:23):
That's a very Masonic way of thinking about it and
really, the more people we canget into the world that are
behaving like Masons, the betterthis world is gonna be percent,
you know especially if we can'tmake them in the lodge.
How are they gonna be that way?

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
I mean, whenever you look at you, look at marriages
and divorce rates and and allthat other stuff.
You know there was a certainsection in the master Mason
obligation that I giggled About.
You know, a master Mason's wifeand I laughed every single time
that I had to recite that.
So it just it made me laugh.
And then I'm sitting there likegoing through the line.
I'm like, okay, so his aunt,this fair game.

Speaker 1 (01:29:58):
Okay, I'm on it so yeah, oh yeah, yeah I didn't get
it because I have an attractivewife who's 15 years younger and
I would go to a lodge you know,I was active, even as a fellow
craft and the old guys wouldcome up to me and They'd flirt
with my wife and stuff and belike I still got a few more
months and I didn't understandwhat they were saying, Until I

(01:30:20):
became a master.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):
Mason, you know I've always told people this and
again, I'm an open book, youknow.
So I'll be transparent about it.
You know, a brother and I wentout to Hooters and we were going
over some site plans orsomething.
And he is just, I mean, likegoogling and ogling over
everything, walking by and I'mlike I'm like focused in on
these plans and I'm like tryingto calculate Okay, then I need
to bring the slab up to thisgrade and compaction rate and

(01:30:41):
everything.
And he's like, dude yourself,control is phenomenal.
And I'm like what do you mean?
He's like you haven't looked ata single waitress up by now.
I'm just gonna tell you what Isaid.
And I was like, bro, here's thething, there is not a single
woman in this restaurant thatcan't do anything for me that my
wife wouldn't do three times,you know.
So like no like, everything'sfine, but um.
But no it's, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:31:03):
If I can't, I get it's eye candy, but like it's.
Is that really the focus ofyour whole adventure there?
It's got to be like googlingand eyeing and staring.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
I know I'd rather look at a set of really is that.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
That's what.
That's what they want the wholeconversation to be about.
That's all their attentionfocused on.
It's like dude, yeah, yeah, ahright.
Well, sir Matt, we're like anhour and 42 minutes in.
So that was the intro.
Let's start the real show now.
Excellent, but no, I obviouslywant to have you back.

(01:31:36):
We're looking for a morepermanent co-hosts.
So, you know, if people likethis, let us know.
If you, if you don't like us,you know, go have a beer and
chill out a little, or a Scotch,and then I'm gonna go tell us
how much you liked it afteryou've relaxed a little bit, but
no, always honest feedback.

(01:31:57):
You can hit us up on the websiteor any podcast service, leave a
comment on the YouTube channel.
We see everything.
It's really easy to get intouch with us.
You can go to hold me directlyat Chris it on the level podcast
calm and give us some feedback.
And and this is how I got madon the show I asked for his
feedback and he gave me some.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
Chris to be.
You know, as, again, I'm abrand-new met, hear me say it,
I'm a brand-new master Mason.
But I do want to thank you andcompliment you for not only your
, your dedication, your serviceto the craft, what you've done
with 147, what you're continuingto do and, you know, trying to
bring in legislation for thereflection room.
You know that's huge, that'sawesome.
Super proud of you, you know,for the things that you've done.

(01:32:40):
And thank you not only that,but for this podcast as well,
because there were certainthings coming up.
As a d8, as a fellow crafts andeven as a master Mason, I am so
confused just because no onetells you anything.
But then you know, I hear, youknow you guys going through, you
know the EA, the lectures, thefellow craft lectures, I'm like,
okay, well, that all makes alot more sense and seeing the
different Takes on it, thedifferent perspectives on it.

(01:33:02):
So thank you from the entirecraft me as representative is
the entire craft to you.
Thank you for what you've done.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
So I've learned and my journey in Freemasonry when
someone gives you a compliment,to accept it gracefully.
So.
I'll say thank you I.
My instinct is to make you stoptalking, but I will say thank
you, I appreciate it.
Thank you for listening and andRealizing what we're trying to
do here.
It's a verification.

(01:33:32):
It makes you feel good becausethat's what we set out to do,
was exactly what you just saidgive a little more light when
people are coming up Through thedegrees or thinking about
joining the fraternity, andreally talk and think about the
things that don't get talked orthought about all that often.
And hopefully, like we're notteaching here right, we're just

(01:33:52):
giving our viewpoints andopinions on this stuff.
Hopefully you can have theconversation with your friends
in your lodges and you'll have awhole, whole different
conversation than we're havingon the podcast.
But it will be worth your timeTo have that conversation,
hopefully over some scotch In acigar if you're doing it right.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):
Nothing wrong with that thing is like, since, you
know, dc has the rule, and Ithink Texas has the rule about
having alcohol in the lodges,but I think there's a
stipulation of, like you know,you can't be drunk in lodge.
So yeah, so yeah, hopefully wecould get something like that in
Florida, because myunderstanding is we can't do
that at all here in Florida, sothe grotto is my choice for now.

Speaker 1 (01:34:33):
No, yeah, I mean, all it would take is someone to
propose some legislation and letit go through the process.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
I'm gonna need the email to submit that too.
We'll go ahead and get thisthing.
Go ahead and get it going.

Speaker 1 (01:34:44):
Yeah, yeah but, I mean, like in Texas, they just
passed it you have to, has to bein the lodges, by-laws, so
every lodge can decide if theywant it or not.
It's not like forced on you,which I think is a good thing.
And If you are gonna do it,there's some guidelines, right,
you can't drink four hoursbefore the lodge meeting because
we don't want you going indrunk, but it's okay to drink

(01:35:05):
after the meeting.
So you know we're all doing itanyways.
We used to go to the shrineafter our meetings and and have
some drinks and karaoke andstuff.
And we'd have our officermeetings at the shrine and have
some drinks and karaoke.
And you know it's like, asMason's, we're not supposed to
have excesses that are super,super fluidists or detrimental

(01:35:27):
to our life.
But having a drink and relaxingwith the friend and not getting
hammered and getting naked, youknow those are two very
different things.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
So how do you navigate that one?
So this thank you so much forhaving me on man.
It has been an absolutepleasure and, moreover, I'm
super happy, excited, proud thatI can call you brother.
You know, every conversationwe've ever had has been
phenomenal, so I look forward tolearning more from you, wow,
thank you for being on, and wewon't say goodbye, we'll say it
until next time.

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Revelations from a Newly Raised Master Mason with Brother Matt Stone

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