The Art of Masonic Leadership and Global Brotherhood with Guest Mark Tishman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All we have to decide is what to do with the time
that is given to us.
You've reached the internet'shome for all things masonry.
Join on the level podcast as weplumb the depths of our ancient
craft and try to unlock themysteries, dispel the fallacies
and utilize the teachings ofFreemasonry to unlock the

(00:22):
greatness within each of us.
I have you now, alright.
Welcome back.

(00:43):
Welcome back to On the LevelPodcast.
Today on On the Level Podcast,we have a very special guest, a
good friend of mine, who most ofthe listeners will never have
heard his name until today, butI doubt that this will be the
last time you hear it Worshipful, mark Tishman of the 23rd

(01:05):
Masonic District in the state ofFlorida.
Welcome to the show, mark.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Good morning brother, good morning worshipful Tishman
.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Good morning worshipful yourself, worshipful
Master Mark Tishman.
I apologize, that means Ibetter stand up because I'm
sitting.
I genuflect, but I'm alreadysitting.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Oh please, you're not worthy.
I'm genuflect but I'm alreadysitting.
Oh please, you're not worthy.
It's okay, only to the big GWelcome, I'm pleased to be here,
chris.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
We're recording now Very early January, february.
Sorry, we just broke intoFebruary, so I'm assuming that
you've probably had at least twoState of Communications at this
point in your Worshipful Masteryear.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
I have so far.
Indeed, we're about to have ourthird this coming Tuesday,
correct?

Speaker 1 (01:55):
So you should have it all figured out.
You should be totallystreamlined.
You got it on every littledetail.
You're totally comfortable inthe role by now.
Just crushing it, man.
That's a joke for anybodythat's been in the East.
You don't really getcomfortable until about the 11th
month of your job you start tofeel like you got it down.

(02:15):
It's a hard transition becauseyou spend many years.
It's different for each of us.
For me it was about five yearsgoing through the progressive
line and then one day you havetotal and complete authority
over the entire operation andnothing changed for you as a man

(02:36):
.
You woke up one morning thesame guy you were for six years
busting your butt in the lodge,and then you go to sleep that
night and you have total andcomplete authority over all your
members in the entire operation.
It's a pretty harsh transition,wouldn't you agree?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I agree, it's uh, it's still settling in at times
and there are uh, it was onlyrecently when I actually had to
issue orders.
Granted, they were by email,but I had to issue orders.
Oh really, that that it made meunderstand, me understand.
But it wasn't because peopleweren't cooperating, it was
because I wanted to make sure wehad certain information in by a

(03:13):
date certain.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh yes, okay yeah, you mean, you're actually trying
to do your job.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
I'm trying to do my job.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Congratulations on that A lot of masters, really a
lot of people in positions ofauthority in a fraternal
organization.
That is a charity.
They're there for the titlemore than the work.
So it's good to hear that youhit the ground focused on the
right things.
That's a good sign for youryear.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
I have a focus of and it may be a bit for selfish
purposes, but I'd like to leavea legacy with the green
checkmark rather than the blackcircle, with the red circle.
Yeah, I'd like to.
I'd like to leave a legacy thatthat that is very helpful and
that I'm able to keep my trestleboard on track and focused and

(04:00):
even accomplish it focused andeven accomplish it.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
That's awesome and that's why I wanted to have you
here, because I've known yousince I joined Freemasonry.
Mark, worshipful Master MarkTishman is the master of the
lodge that I was raised in andI've said on the podcast many
times I've said a little bitabout my history in joining
Freemasonry that I joined thelodge and I didn't get the

(04:28):
experience I was hoping for inthat lodge and I wound up
seeking it in another lodge andthat's where I've settled and
thrived is in the second lodgethat I joined.
But Mark is in the originallodge that I joined, phoenix
Lodge, number 346 in Sarasota,florida, and I remember in the
early days for me after I wasraised, you were one of the

(04:52):
first people that stood out tome and you'll be surprised to
hear this because I never toldhim before, but I was sitting,
as I believe junior steward wasthe first chair I sat in and we
were at a state of communicationand your job as the steward is
to basically not fall asleep.
I believe Junior Stewart wasthe first chair I sat in and we
were at a state of communicationand your job as a steward is to

(05:13):
basically not fall asleep.
So I just stare at the wallacross the room and just try my
hardest not to fall asleep.
And one time Mark Tishman stoodup and he said you know, I,
brothers, I would like to takeour leftovers from our dinners
and bring them to the homelessdowntown of Sarasota and people
no one offered to help you, ofcourse, but they did allow you

(05:34):
to do it and it struck me assomething very different than I
was experiencing in that lodgeAt that point in my Masonic
career was someone just tryingto do something good for someone
else, and I don't know if yourecall that, but it's something
that you.
I don't know why you did that,but I was impressed by it at the
time.

(05:54):
I thought that's a veryselfless thing to take your time
to take this food down topeople, and we have a very big
homeless problem in the city ofSarasota.
It's very rampant in thedowntown area.
They have a whole communitythat just live in the middle of
the city, in the downtown city,there, out in the open, and
they're always hanging around.
And so you did that for I don'tknow how long, until I think it

(06:18):
became a dangerous situationbecause it was nighttime, it was
dark and I think you had tostop for safety reasons,
otherwise you probably wouldhave kept doing it.
Do you recall that?

Speaker 2 (06:29):
I do.
I also recall I don't rememberif that was the actual occasion
when I floated a motion that weallowed that to happen.
I know I talked about wantingto do it.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
That may have been the same time and you weren't an
officer, by the way, you werejust a member on the sidelines.
Just that idea.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
I still do it.
I still do it.
I don't do it with lodge food.
And you're right, safety is amatter.
One of our past masters of thelodge told me and he's an ex-law
enforcement officer and he's anattorney he deals with, you
know, a lot of defensesituations and he deals a lot of
almost in an advocacy role for,um, you know, sort of like a

(07:13):
quasi public defender, um, so hehas a bit of a jaded, you know,
look, and it's just hispersonality, and he said, you
know, and he brought up a pointwhich is that somebody can say
thanks for the food, but give meyour car.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
So I realized that and you have this idyllic bubble
around you, like, oh, I'm doinggood and I'm serving, I'm
carrying this sort of masonrywith me and I'm going to be okay
, right, right, no, the, the,the, the ones who are inebriated
, go well, my uncle was a masonor something, or you know, or I
really always want to learnabout the.
You know, I want to learn aboutthe.
Uh, you know about the cabal orwhatever.

(07:52):
You know, they talk about that,but most people are very, very,
very grateful.
I only had one guy one timeasked me for the ten dollar bill
my in my pocket and I said, no,I'm here to give you a meal.
I didn't't say it that calmlyand quietly, but anyway, I don't
recall you being there thatnight, but I recall me saying
that and I'm grateful and I didthat.

(08:12):
And I stopped doing thatofficially, not so much for
safety reasons, but I rotatedout of the South and you know I
still do it with people, but Idon't go alone.
Oh, that's important.
And I usually like, when I'vestood up and would go, I'd say,
if somebody has three arms withthem, I'd like them to go with
me.
You know, if somebody is armedNot that we want to have a

(08:37):
conflict, but I do it during theday Like I did it the other day
.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Well, you live in the state of Florida and I'm pretty
sure everyone is born with a9mm in the state of Florida, so
finding someone armed is not adifficult thing to do, you mean?

Speaker 2 (08:50):
somebody with three arms, right, exactly, exactly,
you know.
And then some, yeah, I do.
It's interesting, a lot ofpeople are, and I'm sure we have
people in the lodge who have tocarry permits.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
We absolutely do.
I was at your lodge for doing alecture or something in a
degree one night and a guy's gunfell right out of his jacket in
the dining hall.
Gun slugged off the floor, OuchOw.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Glad I think it was on safety.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
That would have been a problem but I'm sure if you,
if you asked everyone to show,there's, I bet, probably more
than 50% of the lodges, probablyyeah.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, we, we, we've got X law enforcement.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, it's just fine.
You know it's interesting CauseI um, we had a presentation by
Sarasota County Sheriff's Officeabout.
It was an active shooterpresentation and we made sure we
didn't call it a drill becauseit wasn't a drill but it was a
presentation.
And I realized, you know, inthis day and age it doesn't hurt
because, especially with, asyou know, there was a lodge in

(10:00):
Florida that was burned bysomeone that was a frustrated
Mason.
There have been at least onehomicide of Masons outside
lodges.
So you know, I'm fine with itand we've even gone as far as
having conversation or havingcertain people who are really
good at that strategicallyplaced to the lodge.

(10:24):
Again, it's really unfortunateand I'm not here to discuss the
political scenario so much it'sunfortunate that we live in a
day and age when that is part ofthe reality more for children
than it is for us.
Yes, but we do have to considerthe fact that if somebody wants
to get into that building whilewe're there, it's not
impossible to get in there.

(10:45):
And even though we do, we allknow there's a Tyler and the
Tyler has a sword, but thatdoesn't mean he's an excellent
marksman, you know.
Yeah, so the point is is thatI'm comfortable with that.
But anyway, I'm kind of goingdown the digression from the
downtown.
The downtown was I had people,I've done it before and I

(11:11):
brought to my masonry thisfeeling of giving.
I really, really, really feelvery, very tuned in to.
We call it, you know, the greatarchitect, my higher power,
whatever you want to choose tocall it, god, whatever, I feel
very tuned in and plugged inwhen I'm able to give, and give

(11:31):
for the right reasons.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
And I think that is a very common thread for people
that join the fraternity.
They want to be part ofsomething bigger than themselves
and they don't really know howin their everyday life to get
engaged in that kind of thingand they're looking for an
organization that can help themcontribute time, money, whatever
it is they want to do towardscharity for other men and
Freemasonry.

(11:53):
You know, I've talked tohundreds and hundreds of people
that want to join the fraternityand that is almost always
something that they say they'reinterested in.
It's very common Now, talkingabout this, talking about
joining the fraternity, I'm verycurious to find out personally
why you decided to join thefraternity and at what age or

(12:14):
what point of your life like howdid you get to the point where
you walked through the door forthe first time?

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Well, I'll preface it by saying that masonry has
taught me to live with moreintention and more planning.
And that said, there was notintention and planning in
becoming a mason.
In my previous career, I was inthe financial services industry

(12:42):
.
In the financial servicesindustry and one of my clients
and I were scheduled to have areview of the financial products
that I had sold this person andI went to his home to meet with
him and his wife and I noticedon his pickup truck a bumper
sticker that said FreemasonsBuilt America.
And I had heard of theFreemasons and this was about

(13:05):
2010, maybe.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
And so that was, you know, almost 14 years ago, right
?
So I was just about 50 at thetime and I went inside and, you
know, we said I said what isthat bumper sticker outside?
What does that mean?
So instead of explaining to me,he starts up, goes to the other

(13:33):
room, gets a petition.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
So you've been a member of Phoenix Lodge from day
one.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Actually, I was a member of I believe it was
builders builders right beforethey were so I believe I was a
member of builders.
Uh, very briefly, um and then,uh, and I don't.
I mean, if anyone looks upmasonic record, which is on a
committee, or it's available orI can, I can give it or you can

(14:01):
look it up, but I, I believethat I was actually raised in
Phoenix, but I believe Ipetitioned in Builders.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
So interesting story here Sarasota Lodge.
The members of Sarasota Lodgebranched off and formed another
lodge in the city of Sarasotacalled Builders Lodge.
From what I understand from thehistory, I was told this is
mainly Masons who were actuallybuilders as a craft and that's

(14:30):
why they called it BuildersLodge.
These were people who workedwith their hands in construction
in some way, shape or form andactually did build their own
lodge.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
if I understand the history correctly, Well, that
building was built by Masons.
The building at 240 SouthTuttle definitely had a lot of
people I don't remember thegentleman's name in 1960 or 61
who was instrumental in doingthat, but they definitely built
that block building there and itstands.
It's got a very impressivebuilding and they did something

(15:02):
at the time which was they putin concrete trusses.
You've been in the time whichwas they put in.
You know concrete trusses, youknow if you've ever gone in,
you've been in the attic of thatbuilding, right, chris?
Oh, yes, it's very big, it'sbig, it's big and it's cleaned
out.
So I'm going to give a shoutout to Dale Jackson, brother
Dale Jackson, right here onpodcast, and when you hear it,
dale, you know that I wasthinking about you because he is

(15:24):
our lodge property chair and hehas done an amazing job along
with other people getting thatcatacombs cleaned out.
So it is that you can actuallywalk up there brother.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Brother dale is a master of the art of what I like
to call busting of the balls.
Every time I come to your lodge, he is a professional ball
buster uh that is true, I findit hilarious.
So I don't know if everyonegets it, but I I know that he's
being funny and I I have fun.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
He's good, he's he.
I like, I like, I like you know, I do hope that he gets the
opportunity to be on yourpodcast sometime because I think
he's uh, he's, a wealth ofknowledge, an interesting man
and um, I like him.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, we have very opposing views on things, oh
absolutely, I very much like totalk to people that have
opposing views.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
I'll see him later.
I'll tell him to reach out andsee if he wants to do it.
It's great to see if he wantsto do it, but anyway, I digress.
But you know a lot of peoplebuilt it and I didn't know that.
You just told me something Idid not know.
By the way, yeah, so it's evenmore fun.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
So Sarasota Lodge had enough of a massive membership.
After a group of themsplintered off to form Builders
Lodge, another group splinteredoff and formed a lodge in honor
of, I think, the only member ofSarasota Lodge that ever became
a Grandmaster of the State ofFlorida, cary B Fish.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Not quite, not quite.
There was the fellow in PuntaGorda was also a Grandmaster.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Well, I mean for Sarasota 147,.
The only member we had become aGrandmaster was Cary B Fish,
who was an attorney in town atthe time, right right, and he
was fortunate enough to be theGrandmaster and laid the
cornerstone at the courthousedowntown and the school in

(17:17):
Sarasota, all in 1923, somewherearound that time.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
So after he passed they formed a lodge in his name
and now we have three lodges inthe city of Sarasota and over
time, I believe Builder's Lodgehad money, or they had money and
not members, because they soldtheir building and had money and
Carrie B Fish was meeting inthe same lodge as Builder's
Lodge and didn't have muchmembership.
So one lodge had the money, onelodge had the membership.

(17:47):
They were strugglingindependently and they wound up
merging into a new lodge thatbecame known as phoenix lodge
phoenix rising from the ashes.
Phoenix, which is the logo ofphoenix lodge 346.
Um, and that's so.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Mark is telling you that he came in under
builder'sodge and then must havebeen raised somewhere around
the transition of that mergerour first transitional
worshipful master was NiallDavenport and then, after Niall,
his son Michael took over, andMichael took over for basically

(18:23):
the second half of the year andI believe Dutch was our first
full year master.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
In Phoenix.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Lodge.
Isn't it wild that now yourpicture is going to be on the
wall after this year and thesame legacy of all of those
other masters from those othertwo lodges.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's really interesting.
You mentioned that and I'mlooking for it to be a very long
time before there's a blackstripe across my shoulder.
Can you explain what that meansto people you know in the lodge
and I'm sure a lot of brothersin your lodges you know that
when you see a picture of a pastmaster on the wall and he has a
black ribbon, it means he'slaid down his working tools.

(19:02):
Yeah, Onto the celestial lodgein the sky.
I don't know, but you're right,it is interesting.
I will be with these guys.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, it's something that never.
Really I didn't ever thinkabout it.
I'm one of those like I keep mymind focused on what's right in
front of me and the goals I'vegot to achieve and I'm
hyper-focused on those thingsand when it's over is when I
realized whoa, I did all thatstuff.
Whoa, this stuff happened.
That's when I realized, I thinkwhen I left, the East was well,

(19:32):
we moved our past Masterspictures into the Lodge room.
Before I became Master, I wasthe first Master of Sarasota
Lodge and they've been aroundsince 1905.
They got to sit and preside inmaster.
So I was the first master ofSarasota Lodge.
They've been around since 1905.
They got to sit and preside inthe East and I would just spend
half of the entire meetinglooking at the past masters

(19:54):
staring out at us and thatweight, really it weighed on me
heavily.
I recommend, if you can getyour past masters pictures in
the lodge because it elevatesthe whole experience, to think
about how many men poured somuch passion and energy into
this place that you're nowpresiding over and it really

(20:15):
does make you think twice beforeyou speak or make a decision.
You don't want to let thoseguys down.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
It's interesting.
You say that.
I'll tell you.
I've thought about that and youknow, in leading any good
organization, you know you haveto pick your battles carefully.
Right Now we we are unique inthe fact that we have a rental
building.
Our building is owned by theScottish Rite of Florida.
The Valley of Tampa actuallyowns it.

(20:41):
It may be titled differently,but it is the Scottish Rite
Center of Sarasota.
So as tenants we have freereign to do what we want, but
from a.
You know, I come from a businessbackground and so the business
person in me says you know,there's not a ton of incentive
to pour a lot of money into abuilding that you do not own,

(21:04):
nor will you ever own, right,but we are still stewards and
it's custodians and we want totake care of it.
So I got there are.
There are in that building.
For those that haven't beenthere in the in what used to be
the street entrance lobby rightoff of Tuttle Avenue there and
that was where people used toenter back in the day.

(21:26):
Now everybody enters throughthe back parking lot entrance
now, but there are pictures ofpast Scottish Rite people and
shrine people and the consensushas been to move all the
pictures from the social hall ofCarrie B and builders into the

(21:50):
hall and leave the PhoenixMasters in the fellowship hall.
So that's what I wanted theminside.
But you know, it was recentlythat somebody told me and it was
a successful Mason said to mewhen you're in the East actually
it was two days ago I had apast grandmaster talk to me and

(22:12):
we had lunch and he said youknow, it's a benevolent
dictatorship but the ones whoare the most successful run it
as a consensus-based democracyand that's what I try to do.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
We are servants of the craft.
As masters we are servantleaders is how I always looked
at it.
We bear full responsibility,but we defer all decision-making
to the brothers of the lodge.
Correct, we are only there tobreak a tie.
If they can't decide Really,it's their line.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
That's really a great way of looking at it, and
that's why it's difficult for meto want to find myself in a
position of.
You know, in my installation,once I had been given the jewel
of my office and, as everyoneknows, the square of the master,

(23:16):
it hangs in a way that thepoint is facing up and the arms
are facing down.
I physically held it in my handand lifted it up to show that
it is an inverted triangle aswell and that I am on the bottom
and I'm there to serve.
And that was the.
That was the method I chose touse that allegory, right To

(23:38):
speak about Very Masonic, veryMasonic way to explain it.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
That's how we like to learn through allegory and
symbols.
You made a symbol out of it.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
I made a symbol out of it.
It was servant leadership.
I talked about it and it hasbeen pointed out to me that I'm
but a conductor.
I'm but an orchestra conductorand I just have to be to make
sure that the triangles and thebassoons get along and play nice
and stand together.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I mean, this is how lodges succeed.
So I don't want to dwell on anynegativity here.
But I've repeatedly talkedabout my early experiences in
Freemasonry and how it wasn'tfor me Right.
And I don't want to say names.
I don't want to talk about anyspecific years or instances, but
I will say this is a Masonicthing, that is, it's not just a

(24:26):
one lodge problem.
This is a I think it's ageneral, not even just in our
jurisdiction, but globally.
An issue is that we have aprogressive line and a beautiful
system of shared ownership overour lodges and and um, you know
it's a dangerous thing whenpast leadership tries to

(24:48):
maintain control after theirtime is over.
When you've got, for example,secretaries or other important
roles that past masters shouldfill because they're obviously
the best ones for those roles,they understand the lodge
working better than anybody.
I've seen lodges where thosepeople try to maintain control

(25:11):
of the lodge and not let theactive officers run the lodge as
they see fit, versus lodgesthat respect that, and I was
just talking to Jeremy Barnesyesterday about this and said he
realized what being a masterwas when he turned to who is
ultimately the most powerfulmason in DC was his secretary.

(25:31):
He asked him a question and thesecretary said don't ask me,
it's your lodge, horsfall Master.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Which is the?

Speaker 1 (25:40):
best.
That's great.
That really taught him.
I'm on my own up here, I needto run this thing, but a lot of
lodges aren't like that.
If you ask the secretary thequestion, he's more than happy
to answer that question.
Take control or even not waituntil you ask the question, just
tell you what to do, and sothat's a good lesson, I think,

(26:02):
for anyone that's in theprogressive line coming up is to
enjoy your time and make yourimpact as you're going through
the line, because it goes fast,faster than you think it's going
to go, and your impact can befar reaching through the lodge's
history if you're a good,active, contributing brother.
But once your time is over,your job is now to support the

(26:27):
active line.
It's not to continue to runthat lodge.
You're there to share yourhistory and your experiences and
obviously, voice your opinionis about your conscious as a
brother, but ultimately you'rethere to support the new line
that's running that lodge youknow, going in, I thought to
myself that we're going to haveto deal with strong characters

(26:47):
who want to continue to controland run the Lodge.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
And it was explained to me not long ago and I think
you and I had a conversationabout this, chris, and you even
agreed was that by the fact thatthey are past masters and the
fact that they've stayed inservice in an officer position
shows their dedication to thelodge.
That's right.
Looking at it in a negative way, we could say they're trying to
have control.

(27:13):
In a positive way, we could saythey have the vested interest,
they have residual ownership,like all of us, and I think that
one thing that has beeninculcated is a nice way of
saying, drilled into my head isdo not break the lodge.
Right, and that's a verysubjective term of what breaking
the lodge means.

(27:33):
But you know I will tell youthis that I have a feeling it's
talking about harmony problem.
Yes, it is, it is so.
So what you?
What you said to me is youagree that they have a vested
interest.
So what you said to me is youagree that they have a vested
interest.
However, that would be morelike in a defensive position
rather than an offensiveposition.
In other words, their job wouldbe basically to shore up the if

(27:53):
we're going sideways, you knowto kind of make sure those
boundaries are in place.
So you know, I met with theleadership of my lodge and the

(28:16):
past leadership of my lodge andI said you need to give myself
and our senior warden and juniorwarden a chance to fail.
That's what I said.
This is how we learn ourlessons.
Is you and me Right?
Exactly, and by and large,they've honored that.
And I will harken back tosomething you said in the very
beginning of our interview,which was that you wake up one
day and you're still the sameman.
Yeah, I realize that now that Iknow a thing or two, because

(28:38):
lifelong masonry, you know,albert Pike would tell me I'm
but a pup.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Right, right.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay so but lifelong learning of masonry, and I know
a thing or two about theoperation of lodge and I have a
bit of experience in my lifebeing.
You know, having made it thisfar, you know this many times
around the sun.
What I will tell you is I willuse them as a wealth of
knowledge.
I don't mind turning, theywon't steer me wrong.

(29:05):
As a wealth of knowledge, Idon't mind turning, they won't
steer me wrong, and I'm alsoable to tell them you know I
haven't had to remind them who'sin the East and I hope I don't
Right, I never want to be inthat position.
I never want to be in thatposition because I think part of
that.
I think part of that is alsohow I conduct myself and don't
put myself in a position where Ineed to be run.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
I think you make a good point here.
There's two sides to thatrelationship.
Because you're now an activeofficer, you're the head of the
active officer.
I'm the primary officer of thelodge, and so you'll understand
this more next year.
But I'm a past master now andso, although I'm advocating for
the officer line to have theirfreedom to make their choices

(29:50):
and make their mistakes, as Isaid, and the past master job is
ultimately to support them Um,you know the officers on the
flip side, the active officers,also need to really, like you
just said, look to your pastmasters and include them in as
much as they can, because thosebrothers still need a reason to
come to the lodge and you cangive it to them, you can include

(30:12):
them in things, you can asktheir opinions on things.
You can ask for help andguidance, and that's what
they're there for.
That's how you have a goodrelationship is that both sides
are doing the best they can intheir specific roles and they're
engaging each other, and Ithink that's what makes a
healthy lot and hopefully, it isyeah, you're saying you're

(30:34):
doing that.
You're actually having lunchwith these people asking
opinions, asking for support,and now they've got to do their
job and give their opinions.
But respect that you're makingthe decisions now, when the
decision comes.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
You're right.
My position is that nobodyknows what it's like to be a
worshipful master, except aworshipful master or a past
minister.
So it was recommended to me,after the election was held and
I knew I was then a worshipfulmaster elect at that point to
convene an ad hoc past masterscouncil.
So I sought out all the livingmasters of the lodge I'll be a

(31:10):
little different in 147 becausethere's a lot of living people
left, which is fine.
See, we only have a history of11 or 12 years and we've
actually already lost one member, you know, and a couple have
moved away and all.
So I convened them, I got some,you know, some snacks and I had
them come to the lodge and youknow, granted, we're not

(31:31):
supposed to have Masonicbusiness on Sunday, but
everybody said, you know, thisis the only day we can get
together.
So we went over and we metaround three o'clock and we had
a conversation and I laid out mytrestle board you know which
was my plan and my agenda forthe year and I said please tear
it apart, pick it apart, tell meif it'll work.

(31:52):
If it won't work, yes, no,maybe.
And that was a very valuableway.
If nothing else, it forged therelationships.
It demonstrated my humilitythat I wasn't just, like, you
know, simba in the Lion King, Ijust can't wait to be king.
I wasn't just like, you know,simba in the Lion King, I just
can't wait to be king.
I wasn't interested in justwaiting to be king, I was
interested in, you know, beinginvolved in the lodge and I was,

(32:14):
you know, nervous, of course,and you know there's a term
called eustress and eustress, sothe eustress is a good stress.
We've got a lodge meeting onTuesday, right this weekend.
Tomorrow, today and tomorrow webegin working on the agenda.
You know when all eyes are onyou.
You know it's really importantfor you to make sure that you

(32:39):
have an agenda that works, thatflows, you know, and I try to be
inclusive, as I told you before.
So I'll send it out to all theofficers and we also give copies
to all the to the craft whenthey go into the lodge.
They can follow.
Yeah, so I believe in, Ibelieve in collaboration.
Collaboration is a veryimportant part.
It makes it better.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
The more eyeballs you have looking at things, the
more opinions, the better theend product's going to be.
Exactly yes, product's going tobe exactly yes, so, um, so we'll
look forward to seeing what thereviews are.
Our interview, well, I'll tellyou.
Uh, they say great minds thinkalike.
So when I became master, thevery first thing I did uh, we
use a communication tool calledgroup me, which is a messaging

(33:19):
app that allows you to have alot of people in different
groups categorized.
Our lodge has one, I'm sureyour lodge has one.
I made a new group called thePast Masters Advisory Council
and I put every living pastmaster in that group me and I
used it a lot in my year.
Every time I had a kerpufflepop up or there was some

(33:41):
dissension and I was notimmediately sure what to do.
And you can't go to the craftwith all this kind of stuff, but
you can write past masters andthey loved hearing it and being
able to share their opinionsprivately.
Right, this is just between thepast masters, right, and now
I'm a.
I'm a member of the pastmasters council and I added the

(34:02):
new master into it and hopefullythis is a tradition that
they'll carry on for some time,just letting every master have
this like advisory council intheir back pocket, because, wow,
what a wealth of resource ofinformation you have, it's true.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
And the list will grow.
That's great and, like we said,we want to include them.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
They're an important part of our lodge, and so let
them shine in the role thatthey're in, which is advising
the master and helping himthrough his journey.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
I think that there's a lot to learn from everyone and
you know, the more diverse weare, the more people we bring in
, the more, even though we havethis unity of purpose.
The more experiences peoplebring in, the more you can draw

(34:52):
on those experiences you know,Well, what a great transition to
the next subject I have for you.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
All right, you did that perfectly.
You said you mentioned the worddiversity.
So Freemasonry and this is thispodcast was built for originally
for people that aren't Masonsyet I wanted to talk about
Freemasonry in such a way as tomake it understandable to
someone that's not a Mason,that's researching, because

(35:19):
there's too much nonsense outthere, and so when we talk about
Freemasonry, the first thing wetalk about is that it is not a
religion, and this fraternalorganization, although it
mandates, in order to be amember, you must believe in a
higher power than yourself andan eternal salvation, for
example, it does not dictatewhat flavor of religion you take

(35:44):
on Correct, and so it is quiteinclusive, and that diversity
strengthens us as a group, in myopinion.
I run a company, and diversityof opinion, of age, of
upbringing, of socioeconomicstatus, those variety of

(36:04):
experiences and opinions, makethe end product so much stronger
when you can get input fromeach of those groups into the
end product, and so I believeit's the same in our fraternity
the more diverse range of agesand people and ethnic
backgrounds and socioeconomicstatus we have working together,
the better our end product isgoing to be to society, and I

(36:40):
only bring that up because youare actively in the state of
Florida, which mandates that aChristian Bible be present on
its altar at all times duringany state or cult communication,
and you yourself are a man ofJewish faith and you know this
is that makes you a minority inthe state of Florida, in my
opinion.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
No, by fact, not opinion.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
And so I have so many questions for people in that
situation.
Because I'm not.
I'm born a white man in upstateNew York and Christian.
You know, my mom taught at theSunday school and I was a.
I was a Presbyterian growing upand that's what.
That's all I knew, and so whenI moved to Florida, I became
subjected to a lot of differentthings.

(37:17):
You know, I worked at Disneywas my first job.
Disney is like 70% gay.
That was a huge culture shockfor me coming from conservative
upstate New York to 70% gay.
It took a minute for me to getmy bearings, but let me tell you
I'm a better man today forhaving experienced the diversity
that I did in my life, I knowthe benefits of embracing

(37:43):
diversity, and so whenever I getan opportunity to talk to
somebody that's not of my flavorof life, I really want to ask
questions, a lot of questions.
I'm very curious, so would youmind if we talk briefly about
that topic, not at all, I'd behappy to share.
So when you came into thefraternity, was it explained to

(38:04):
you that you were going to takean obligation and you can choose
your book of faith when you dothat?
It was not.
It was not Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
And knowing now what I know, I would have selected
what we call the Tanakh, whichis the Torah in a bound form.
You can't bring a Torah ontothe altars because they don't
travel too well, you know, andthere's all kinds of conditions

(38:31):
in which they travel, but youcan bring this book, which I
have, and it is the Torah, theentire Torah, in a printed bound
form had.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
I known then I would have used that.
So, and it is difficult becausewe don't, you can't really
blame necessarily the lodge thatyou're initiated in for that,
because we don't ask.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
We don't ask, we don't say hey, are you Jewish?

Speaker 1 (38:57):
We don't do that.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
No, we don't ask, and the rule would have still had
been there that the ChristianBible was there.
But I could have had that aswell.
I noticed recently a picture ofVice President Kamala Harris
when she was being installed andsworn in.
There was the Christian Bible,but there was also I do not know

(39:19):
if she is converted, I know herhusband is Jewish and I noticed
.
If you look at that pictureyou'll see there's two books
with her hand on top of twobooks.
There's one book on top ofanother.
I just noticed that recently.
So I was told I could have donethat.
But the way I, all of us in ourlodge and probably it's this way

(39:42):
in the lodge that you were apast master of are given a
Masonic Bible, and that MasonicBible, even though it has a
whole lot of interestinginformation and nice pictures
and a gold leaf binding andeverything, it is the St James
Bible and inside there is thefirst five books of Moses, which
is the Holy Scriptures.
It is the, and inside there isthe first five books of Moses,
which is the Holy Scriptures.
It is the Holy Scriptures.

(40:02):
That is what I grew up with.
So once I learned that, Ididn't ask for a redo or take
two.
I said, okay, it's there, I'minstalled, I'm raised and I took
my obligation and my hand wasin the right place and, more
importantly, my heart was in theright place.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Yes, obligation and my hand was in the right place
and, more importantly, my heartwas in the right place.
So here's here's what we haveto do as masters of our lodges
is be observant.
So I was master last year andwe, we initiated 20 some guys.
One of those guys I observedwearing a yarmulke and he was
there for his installation, orhe was going to be initiated
that day and he was there forhis installation, or he was
going to be initiated that day,and he was there just relaxing

(40:43):
and I happened to he was sitting, so I could see it on his head,
and so I walked up to him andsaid, excuse me, I noticed your
yarmulke.
I'm presuming that you'reJewish, of the Jewish faith, and
he said, yes, I am.
And I said well, we actuallyhave you're going to take an
obligation today.
He was an odd fellow andapparently the odd fellows go
through a very similar practiceto what the Freemasons do.

(41:06):
So he was immediately knew whatI was about to ask him.
He said, yes, I do, and I said,okay, we happen to have a
Tanakh, we have a Bible, we havethe Quran, we have all the
books under our altar, so ifyou'd like, I can pull it out
for you when you take yourobligation.
He said, yes, please.
So the only reason thathappened for him is because I
was observant and I inquired,otherwise it wouldn't have

(41:30):
happened.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Unless a ware master would have said the only person
who can have their head coveredin the lodge is the master and
actually in the Digest inFlorida.
It does clearly stay in thedigest in florida that a person
who wears a head covering forreligious purposes may keep
their head covered absolutely,yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
So, and he did, he wore his yarmulke and every time
he came to lodge and for everydegree he took, which is great.
Again, that's part of thediversity that makes us awesome,
because it's a clear, visiblesign that oh, I want to for me,
that, oh, I need to ask thisbrother some questions.
I have questions for him andhe's going to have answers, and
we had many conversations.

(42:12):
He actually bought me abeautiful Torah and gave it to
me as a gift, as well as anotherbook, because he didn't begin
Jewish.
He actually converted toJudaism later in life because of
his wife, and so I told him youknow, at one point I think I
don't know, maybe I'm Jewish andhe said maybe you are.
He gave me some books about it.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Well, it's interesting because I talk to
people along the way and they go.
My grandmother was jewish and Igo, okay, and I said, uh, I
want to tell you this that thatmeans your mother was jewish,
that means you're jewish well,there's, it's a bloodline you
may not practice.
You may not practice the, thefaith, or identify with that.
But I mean I'm saying that interms of the requirements of
conversion or being Jewish, youhave to have a direct bloodline.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yes, Well, this is what I find.
It's a very unique situationwith people that are Jewish or
people that are of the Jewishfaith, because my wife is
Ukrainian, as an example.
She is very her family.
None of them have ever been ofthe Jewish faith.
As far back as she knows, youknow they came from communist

(43:21):
Soviet Russia, right, but whenshe took a DNA test, she's about
three to four percent Jewish.
Now, jewish is a genetic marker.
It is a version of us, thishumanity, identify as Jewish.
You cannot change that.
That's a genetic part of whoyou are.

(43:43):
As you said, if your mother'sjewish technically.
you're going to be jewish in inthe literal sense, because we
identify jewish in some ways asa variation of human and but we
also have the jewish faith,which I like.
Before we spoke, you said I, Iprefer to call it the Jewish
faith, and I like that becauseyou're identifying my genetic

(44:03):
Jewish heritage from.
I choose the Jewish faith Right, and I find that to be a
fascinating thing that onlyapplies to the Jewish people.
They're the only people likethat.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
And it's interesting, it has nothing to do with being
a minority.
So much Because, you know,growing up I knew nothing of
being a minority.
You were surrounded by thisright.
I was surrounded by this and Igrew up in the Jewish enclave of
Pittsburgh called Squirrel Hill, you know, which is where Tree
of Life Synagogue is, and I usedto pass by on my way to school

(44:40):
all the time.
So at what point?

Speaker 1 (44:41):
did you leave that safe community and venture out
into a community where you didbecome a minority in that
community?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
When my mother dragged me, kicking and
screaming, to this small citycalled Sarasota, florida, in
1972.
72, wow.
And I had a teacher, a mathteacher, who would leave these
small biblical tracts on ourdesk.
You know, these kind that sayyou know, be saved and all.

(45:12):
And he literally would look atme in a way he was looking for
my horns and my cloven hoofs andmy tail, you know.
And it got to the point wherehe believed he was going to save
me.
And, um, we actually had tohave a conversation with him and
a rabbi and my mother at somepoint to tell him that he needed

(45:37):
to kind of find some otherperson to spend his energy on.
And you know.
So we are in the South, eventhough Florida is a very diverse
place and that will also leadme to one place I want to go
with my masonry.
But we are in the South and weare very diverse in a lot of

(45:58):
ways, but we are still, eventhough we are a nation founded
on Judeo-Christian principles,we are a Christian nation.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Well, I would disagree with that.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Okay, and here's why.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Let me just quickly say why.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
That's okay.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
That's fine.
My previous host was a devoutChristian and he always said
things like that and I saidactually we're founded on
Masonic principles, our country,which is the acceptance of all
faiths.
We were never founded as aChristian nation.
It was specifically forbiddento be a Christian nation in the

(46:37):
founding documents.
So I don't accept the premisethat we are a Christian nation.
I think we're a mis-.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I don't accept it either.
Yeah, because I'm here to learn, but at the same time I guess I
was taking a generally acceptedprinciple, but and I see your
point and I agree with you and Inow will I will not.
I just learned something.
So thank you.
No, seriously, you have toremain teachable.
You cannot graft new ideas on aclosed mind, so I'm an open

(47:06):
mind.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
The predominant religion in our country, for
sure, is Christianity.
No one can question that.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
That is a fact, and that's what I found when I moved
to Florida, and it is that way.
So you know there are.
I visited a lodge in.
I visited the Grand Lodge ofNew York.
Have you been?
I've never been to the GrandLodge, okay, but I can.
The Grand Lodge of.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
New York.
I've been to the Grand Lodge ofPhiladelphia, which is pretty
impressive.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
New York is just as impressive and I had an
opportunity to meet with abrother who functions in the
role of a docent.
We met by appointment and he'sof the Jewish faith.
He invited me to a Jewish lodgethat meets online to be part of
, and um, there are uh, thegrandmaster of the past,
grandmaster of wisconsin, toldme of a lodge that he uh was, is
a member or was a member of inwisconsin.

(48:09):
That was in milwaukee.
That was all jewish folks.
So I came into masonry notknowing much, you know, I in
background wise, I don't have.
I came from a broken home andmy mother was busy surviving
rather than and she did her bestto inculcate um jewish
theocracy in us.
But, more importantly, we gotjewish values, which are not,

(48:33):
which are.
There are so many parallels inmasonry, really, I believe it.
You know, you heard Just be amensch, be a mensch, do the
right thing.
Be a stand-up guy who does theright thing.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
That's what Masonry is about.
It's not immune from the sameissues as other organized
religions the Jewish, faith youhave many different versions now
of the Jewish faith.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Right, you have many different versions now of the
Jewish faith.
Right, you have differentdenominations, Denominations
yeah, it all started asorthodoxy right.
And now there's ultra-orthodox,with groups that are the Satmar
, which are in Crown Heights andBorough Park.
They call them the Black Hats,right.
The big black furry hats, yeah,some of the furry hats, those

(49:22):
guys, they're from differentvillages, or what they call
shtetls, in Eastern Europe.
They have the largest sect ofOrthodox Jewry is called Chabad
Lubavitch, and they are a verywonderful group of individuals

(49:44):
who are welcoming to everybody,kind of like Masonry.
They welcome everybody of allJewish denominations.
They want to meet you where youlive, which is my goal for
Masonry to meet new Masons wherethey live.
Yeah, right, in other words,make it, make it a welcoming
place.
Today we have an open house.
I'll be going after thisinterview to the open house.

(50:05):
We have a blood drive, we havea movie night, so we have we
meet people, we get to seepeople there.
But I wanted to make sure Itouch on the other ones.
And so then you've gotconservative Judaism, reform
Judaism, and now there are acouple of things called
Humanistic Judaism and differentforms, and they're really just,
they're almost amalgamatedblends.

(50:27):
And then you have a sect calledMessianic Judaism, which are
Christian people that followJewish ethos.
They use the Torah, they learnHebrew, those kind of things,
but they are, at their core,christians and their Savior is
Jesus, which is fine.
What so?

(50:48):
How are you?

Speaker 1 (50:48):
still Jewish.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
I don't, because I think it's you are when you say
you are.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
So I mean, to me the main difference between
Christianity and Judaism is thatthe Christians kind of picked
up the football that the Jewishleft and carried it further and
said here's the rest of thestory.
Now, this is what happened.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
That's one way of looking at it.
That's one way of looking at it.
I've never looked at thatanalogy.
I think it's that the Kind oflike even the.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Scottish Rite tells us a lot of the Scottish Rite
degrees talk about, after thefall of Solomon's Temple, what
happened, right, right.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
The rest of the story right, Right but it's founded
on Judaism.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
I mean Christians.
It blows their mind when yousay Jesus was a rabbi.
Like he was a rabbi, I hate totell you.
He was a Jewish rabbi.
That's how he lived his life.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
That's who he was, there was no.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Christianity at the time.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
I think it's really interesting too, because for a
couple reasons, as you know, oneof the things we make a point
of doing in masonry is lookingfor similarities and our
differences.
Right, yeah, so so.
But what people do forget isyou can have conversations in

(52:14):
the fellowship hall aboutreligion and politics.
You can have this.
You just can't have them inopen lodge.
This is a mistake that peoplemake.
They think that Masons can'teven talk about that stuff, and
that's not true.
That diversity is what makesthis.
In terms of diversity, I havethis great goal for a plan for

(52:36):
the summer of diversity.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
I'll tell you or I can go right into that.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Go for it.
Tell me okay.
Um, when I'm, we and and myarticle in this month's chess
board, and I'm not sure if yousubscribe to the phoenix do you
okay?
Yes, so you'll.
You'll see my comments from theeast I'm on a creeper.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
I creep on everybody's stuff.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
I'm watching all everything that's okay, that's
what we do.
All you know it all buildsstrength.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Strength to strength I always I'm looking for the
good stuff I can take and uh,you see the bad stuff to avoid
learning.
Yeah, that's learning.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
That's absolutely learning.
That's that's it.
But in my article it talksabout how impressed I was at the
grand communication, the lastgrand communication that PHA,
Prince Hall Affiliate Masonswere.
We are in the process ofgetting to full recognition.
Yeah, we're in the processthere.
Florida's behind the times.
Nobody, nobody will, nobody inthe least will will doubt you on

(53:36):
that.
Least we'll, we'll doubt you onthat.
A lot of other um states havefull recognition and they hold
common communication with princehall as well as um, the grand
lodge system we're one of, Ithink, four other jurisdictions
that don't recognize prince hall, so we're definitely in this
regard, but we're moving in thatdirection.
And when, when it was mentionedin Grand Lodge in the Grand

(54:00):
Communication last May thatthere's a beta test going on
right now where some lodges hadmet with each other, yes, and
they were welcome, it was astanding ovation, yes and an
ovation.
So I plan on reaching out tothe deputy grandmaster, because

(54:22):
the current grandmaster has hisplate full and he's already over
halfway through his year.
But I plan on reaching out tothe deputy grandmaster, who will
be the grandmaster of Floridanext year, whose theme is youth,
and I'd like to see if we canhold a Masonic event this coming
summer at the Robert L TaylorYouth Center which is in Newtown

(54:45):
.
I'd like to see if we can makethat happen between us and the
PHA, the local PHA lodge.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
So when you say PHA, he's talking about Prince Hall.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Affiliate Prince Hall .
Affiliate Prince Hall.
Affiliate Prince Hall Masonryis the job in their masonry and

(55:24):
their grandmaster.
I believe his name is MostWorshipful Jeffrey Taylor, I
believe that's his name, if Iunderstand correctly.
But he's very committed toworking with our grandmaster now
to see if we can get to thatplace, and we are getting there
each year.
I would highly imagine withintwo years.
Truly mark my words that wewill have full recognition.

(55:48):
We will have full recognition.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
It's about time.
We'll finally have fullrecognition with each other.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
By the time, I'm living in North Carolina, that's
another thing we have in common.
I've actually relocated to SouthCarolina and you, I think you
already purchased your next homein North Carolina, right?
I purchased a home in Asheville, north Carolina, and I've been
to Lodge.
This is great how thisconversation is going, because I
can now segue into attendingLodge elsewhere and how it's so

(56:19):
important.
But yes, I purchased a home inAsheville, north Carolina, with
the goal of moving there.
Ultimately, obviously, I won'tdo it when I'm in the east, and
that decision came as a resultof not wanting so much to leave
Florida, as it was that wewanted four seasons and we
wanted some topography, becauseI like to hike and ride my bike.

(56:39):
Same here, and I just.
Florida is a wonderful vacationspot.
I'm really enjoying the weathernow, the season.
I mean, I was downtown lastnight.
I went to a fantastic play atthe Florida Studio Theater last
night.
I'll tell you offline all aboutit, okay, but I can just tell
you that it's wonderful hereduring the season.

(57:01):
The summer's more heat than Iwant to bear anymore.
Yeah, same here.
I like the mountains.
The view off my back porch inNorth Carolina Is a beautiful
view of the AppalachianMountains, yeah, so I went to
lodge there.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
You'll be about an hour to an hour and a half drive
from where I live when you'rein Asheville.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
So that's, we'll be getting together.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
We'll be getting together, yes, and I'm here and
I can tell you when you wake upand you see, I see like a family
of six, seven deers justgrazing in my yard every morning
.
It's a different life than whatyou have in Florida.
For sure, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
So you went to Lodge in Nashville right, I wanted to
go to Lodge in Nashville and myunderstanding, when you go
domestically I'm not sure aboutthe letter, but I'll talk about
international in a moment but soI contacted Lodges and I saw
there's a saw there's probablybetter than a dozen lodges

(58:06):
around the western NorthCarolina area, maybe even more,
in Buncombe County, which iswhere Asheville is located.
So I reached out and wanted togo and found that I wasn't
getting anybody to get back tome on the schedule.
So I reached out to Grand Lodgeand through some emails back

(58:27):
and forth I was able to finallyconnect and I attended the
Biltmore Lodge.
And Biltmore Lodge is locatedphysically in a building that
used to be a church, that was onthe property of the Cornelius
Vanderbilt who built the wholearea, and then that lodge has

(58:48):
been in that building since 1953.
And that lodge has been aroundfor a long, long time and they
have not recycled a master since1930.
There you go, strong.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
That shows strength.
That's a strong lodge, yeah,and I learned a master since
1930.
There you go, strong.
That shows strength.
That's a strong lodge, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
And I learned a lot from them.
I did some things.
I was really impressed when Ifirst went in.
They didn't know me from Adam,so they took my dues card and
they took me in a side room andthey had me provide due guards
and signs.
They tried you, they tried me,they absolutely tried me and I

(59:27):
passed the Masonic trial.
You were not denied, I was notdenied and I was admitted, given
entry.
And then a couple of things Inoticed on top of it, and I am
obviously careful because Idon't know.
Your podcast is open to thepublic, so I won't violate it.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
This is for the public, yes, so be careful.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Right, I will, of course, of course.
So I wanted to make sure thateverybody who was present was
indeed a master mason and theywent through a process of making
sure that was happening.
It's called purging.
Purging is what they do inlodges was indeed a master mason
and they went through a processof making sure that was
happening.
It's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
it's called purging, purging is what they do in
lodges making sure everyonepresent are actual masons before
the actual before they had forthe beating starts in the
business and they did that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
They did that in a way that was very impressed.
It's not done that I've seen inour lodge in florida.
Um, they did other things thatwere very impressive too.
They were able to do a uhmoving in between the different
levels of masonry within thesame meeting and, uh, you know,
uh, examining people for theirproficiency and those kind of
things.

(01:00:30):
All that done in the span of anhour wow and I think the most
impressive part was after it wasover.
We had dessert and coffee, andso I have changed it in my lodge
that the dessert is after themeeting.
It is not before the meeting.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
We've always done that at Sarasota Lodge and it
definitely affords a wholedifferent vibe, because most
people leave, for sure, butthere are a group of people that
just when you hang out and havethose after-lodge conversations
, it's really awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Really awesome fellowship, right exactly.
We do something else also atPhoenix.
Which is interesting is that wein the agenda it's called Good
and Welfare, but we, after thegavel closing gavel, we circle
up, we all hold hands and welook to the left and we tell the
person one thing we appreciateabout them.
And that circle goes around andyou walk away going, you know

(01:01:23):
it's something and rememberwe're diverse.
I like that, it's a good thing,we enjoy it.
It's important to say thatyou're doing that after the
state of communication You'renot altering the court of work
or anything like that Rightright, no, exactly, and it can
be after the gavel drops, and itcan also be sometimes meetings

(01:01:44):
are contentious and sometimesthere's personalities involved
and it's a good way to clear theslate yeah, right, yeah.
The other thing, the thing Iwas really impressed by in North
Carolina was they did thatcircle up, but the senior deacon
, rather than have that thingwhere you look to your left and
tell each person what youthought of them, the senior
deacon recited the closingcharge by memory.

(01:02:04):
And you know, so we, yeah.
So that was I was prettyimpressed.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Do they level the lodge like we do or do they
level it like they do up northat the end, where everyone comes
down?

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
essentially no they do it like we do.
It's leveled.
It's not the same way.
That's AF and AM.
I noticed something also thatthey have a different system of
communication between the peopleinside the room and outside the
room, those kind of things.
I know what you mean.
I'm sure that where you are nowand where I will be, it's that

(01:02:39):
way.
But I was also going to tellyou about international travel.
Could I tell you about that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Well, you, just talked about, like domestically.
One of the great benefits ofbeing a Master Mason is that you
can travel anywhere in theworld and go to any recognized
lodge by your jurisdiction andsit as a brother in that lodge.
And so you've done that.
Domestically is what he'ssaying, which means he's gone to
other states within thecontinental US and visited those

(01:03:05):
lodges.
But you've also goneinternationally and visited
lodges in other countries as aMason.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yes, I have, I have Tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Where were you?

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
We were planning a trip to go to Africa.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
You weren't going to go on a safari, were you?

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Well, we went on a game ride in the Chobe National
Forest and it was the mostincredible experience of my life
.
It was up there in the top ten.
Did you actually stick out atthe bush?

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
overnight.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
No, I didn't.
We went for a ride from 6 inthe morning until about 1 in the
afternoon.
It was up there with visitingAngkor Wat in Cambodia.
Wow, it was right up there.
Anyway, the way it's done inFlorida is, in order to be able
to be a traveling man is, inorder to be able to be a
traveling man, in order to beable to visit elsewhere where

(01:04:06):
they don't know you, you have togo to your secretary and ask
your secretary to seek a letterof introduction.
So that letter of introductioncomes from the Grand Lodge and
it is signed by the GrandSecretary and given to you.
So for those brothers that wantto do such a thing, don't rely,

(01:04:26):
when you're travelinginternationally, on the strength
of your dues card alone.
That's not going to benecessarily the right thing to
do.
So get that letter.
So that process you want tostart at least two or three
weeks before disembarking onyour trip.
You want to start at least twoor three weeks before
disembarking on your trip.
So I reached out and was put intouch with the secretary of

(01:04:51):
Lodge in Cape Town, south Africa, and I reached out and I
submitted my letter and then Ireceived a summons to appear in
Lodge.
Oh, they gave you a summons.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
They gave me a summons.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Fascinating, yep.
They gave me a summons toappear in Lodge.
Oh, they gave you a summons.
They gave me a summons,fascinating, yep.
They gave me a summons and Ididn't really have a lot of
dress clothes with me so I thinkI had to borrow a jacket.
Now when I travel, if I intendto visit Lodge, I carry a suit
with me.
I've learned that lesson.
But anyway, that night it was asimilar thing that happened to

(01:05:24):
phoenix lodge.
It was the uh, the, the uhconsolidation of two lodges.
So it was the installation thatnight of the new master.
So the brass was there from allthe, the grand lodges.
There was a representative ofthe GLE, the Grand Lodge of
England was there from London,there was representatives from
the Grand Lodge of Ireland,grand Lodge of South Africa, so

(01:05:49):
there was four.
You know.
There was bagpipes, there was akilt, there was a person
wearing a kilt, there wasgauntlets on the arms.
It was pretty special, yeah,those gauntlets on the arms.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
It was pretty special .

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Yeah, those gauntlets were awesome.
Yeah, it was pretty special.
So this is an incrediblebuilding.
They have an almaner, they havean assistant tiler, they have
an assistant secretary, theyhave a lot of officers I never
heard of and the lodge room isbeautiful.
I don't know if you ever sawthe article I sent Chris, but

(01:06:23):
I'll send you the link.
I can find it in my pictures,my visit to the lodge, but
anyway, I haven't seen that.
I'll show you the picture.
It's wonderful because it's anold building that has been
around since 17-something andit's right where Parliament is,
right on the grounds ofParliament, basically In Cape
Town.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
South.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Africa In Cape Town.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So we had and a few otherlodges meet there and I took a
lot of pictures.
I'll make a point of doing that, getting you those.
But I went there and theywelcomed me and I kind of wound
up with like a mentor thatevening who I kind of palled
around with.
But I saw some reallyimpressive things.

(01:07:04):
I saw the you know, the chamberwhere they prepare candidates
which was just incredible.
We'll talk offline when we'redone about how neat this was,
but I saw the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Speaking of that chamber that you're talking
about, stephen Garcia and I havedrafted legislation that has
been submitted to Grand Lodge indue form and in due time, that
hopefully will be read at ournext annual Grand Communication,
to allow lodges to choose toperform the Chamber of

(01:07:38):
Reflection on EnteredApprentices or not.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
And so it gives some guidance and the Brothers of
Florida will have theopportunity to vote on that and
I'm really hoping that it'sreceived favorably, because the
Grand Lodge is not in favor ofit, so it's going to take all
the Brothers voting on it to getthat to pass.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
But I suspected you may be talking about something
along the lines of chamber I am,I am, and this chamber
reflection reminded me of a, uh,of a bank vault.
The door was.
The door was built in 17something, the door literally,
and it was about uh 18 inchesthick and it was a round room

(01:08:20):
that would be lit only bycandles.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
It was a pretty incredible space that would be
typical of a chamber ofreflection, and then there would
be certain things present thatwould make you really focus your
attentions on certain aspectsthat Freemasonry wants to focus
your attention on.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
The intent behind that, for those that don't know,
is basically to get in theright headspace prior to being
initiated a mason or raised as amaster mason.
So, um, I saw that and the, the, uh, the uh.
Anybody who goes in there canlearn about the masonic
furniture, so certain the thingsthat we're used to in the lodge

(01:08:58):
.
The symbols were in there andthey were beautiful.
The flooring was beautiful, theorgan was gorgeous.
It was just a really lovely,lovely lodge and we enjoyed it
and I'm not really understanding.
It's really interesting.
So they, they, you know I'm Iwas telling myself to bring
levity to the situation, but youknow they asked for there was,

(01:09:20):
there was fellows of the craftthere, there was entered
apprentices and they were allretired.
And then they asked the onlypeople who should stay are
masters, and I thought theymeant master masons, sitting
masters, and what they meant waspeople who were actual
worshipful masters should stay.
So I wound up staying in ameeting and when they found out
I was not a sitting masteractual worshipful master should

(01:09:41):
stay.
So I wound up staying in ameeting and they, they, they.
When they found out I was not asitting master, a couple people
were cross and uh, and the guynext to me said don't worry, you
can't unring a bell, right?
Yeah, so so it's not.
You know, it's not like you'regonna go and tell things, but
you know was there, then we hadterribly secret in there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Did you feel like you got some kind of no okay, no,
just a traditional thing, thennot just traditional thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
But then then, after that, we went into the chamber
next door, which was where theyserved a meal, and what was
amazing was, um, it was almostlike a table lunch at that point
, because there was a whole lotof toasts with alcohol and I
never understood the term.
They'd'd say gentlemen, beupstanding.
I was like what?
I already am upstanding.
No, everybody gets up.

(01:10:24):
And they stand up.
Oh, you know, right, nice.
They'd say gentlemen, beupstanding.
And then they'd hit it, andthen everybody up there, and
then they'd toast, and you know,we all had shepherd's pie.
They offered Guinness stout,which I don't drink, so I didn't
drink the stout, but it wasgreat.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
It sounds like a primer slot for your pepper's
pie and Guinness drinks.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
It was really interesting, though, because I
had taken the Grandmaster's pinto present to the new
Grandmaster, because, actually,the Grandmaster of South Africa
was there and I was presenting apin to him from our Grand
Master at the time.
Wow, I kept wanting to be astand-up and do my thing.
They fit me in.
I was the very last personright before the Tyler's Oath.

(01:11:09):
By this time everybody wasquite happy.
They were all quite toasty.
I'm standing there giving thispin to the people that were oh
thanks you know it's good thatthey warmed.
They warmed the crowd up for youbefore they warmed the crowd to

(01:11:30):
the tune of about an hour and ahalf of toasts.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Yeah, you know I was uh so my last uh recording
session was yesterday and Irecorded with j, with Jeremy
Barnes, to create a Viamity appand people have heard that
before this.
So hopefully you listenregularly and I can tell you
that, if you don't, I asked himto leave us with something
Masonic not talking about techor any of that, just like as a

(01:11:54):
Mason and he talked about thisbefore.
His one thing was please travel,please get outside your lodge
and travel.
And here you are praising theexperiences you've had in travel
as a Mason.
You're literally speaking tohis point, which is Masonry
doesn't happen in state ofcommunications, in your lodge.

(01:12:15):
Masonry happens out in theworld, when you're traveling and
in your interactions withpeople you've never met, and
showing love and Kindness tothese people and learning their
ways, tolerance and appreciation, respect for our fraternity,
wherever it may be, in whateverform it takes, right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
And there's another benefit also of traveling, which
is when we are indeeddistressed.
I was going to I'm in theinsurance adjusting business and
I was headed to a storm inTexas.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
You were headed to what?

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
A storm in Texas.
A storm, well, because I'm aninsurance adjuster.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
We work storms, we work storms.
And so I was heading to a stormin Texas and there was no place
to stay.
So I called a local lodge and Ihad a lodge brother offer me
either a place in his home or heknew somebody who had a hotel.
They can get me a hotel.
Another time I was in thehospital in Asheville and the

(01:13:28):
insurance company was decidinghow long I could stay and I
wasn't ready to go yet and myflight wasn't until the next day
.
So I had a mason come pick meup and take me to the airport
wheelchair and all Wow, I neverknew this guy.
I wouldn't know him if I sawhim today, so you know.
So we are our best helpers.
If you, you know, are in asituation, you can always call a

(01:13:51):
lodge and ask Now, you knowthey can definitely help you.
If you need things when you'retraveling and you don't know
people, it's really nice.
Help you.
If you need things when you'retraveling and you don't know
people, it's really nice.
I've had Masons, you know, helpme out before and I will help
them out any time I come totheir.
You know their awareness, youknow Whether they're distressed
or not.
I'm happy to help a Masonwhenever I can.
I mean that's as we started inthe beginning of the interview.

(01:14:14):
I told you I'm a giving person.
I like to help.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
That's something that people say and hear all the
time, like I'm happy to help.
I'm happy to help, but when yousay it and you're a Mason, it's
something different.
You know last year and you'regoing to experience it this year
as the master.
They contact you when someonepasses away to arrange funeral
services, and so I had theopportunity to talk to many
Masonic widows last year, andsomething I impressed upon every
single one was listen, we arehere for you now.

(01:14:45):
The way that we show our lovefor our brother is to support
you.
This is a tenant of ourfraternity, and so it would be
our honor if you would call usif you need your lawn mowed, if
you need your groceries pickedup for you, if there's anything
we can do.
We're waiting for anopportunity to show our brother
how much we love him by helpingyou.
And so when you say I'm happyto do it, you mean you're happy

(01:15:10):
to do it.
You want an opportunity to showyour love through an act of
service to somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
That's true humility, and when you want to serve
somebody else, there can be noagenda.
What do you hope to get inreturn other than there's
nothing?
There's a thing in Judaism thattalks about.
There's a term called a mitzvah.
You ever heard of the term of amitzvah?
I am familiar with this.

(01:15:38):
A mitzvah is a heard the term.
I am familiar with this.
Yeah, a mitzvah is a good deed,and there's, there's uh over
600 of them, and one of thehighest ones you can do is um,
to be buried in the manner of um, uh anonymity, which is
important in the Jewish faith.

(01:15:59):
That's why they talk about aplain pine casket.
They talk about being buried ina shroud, being washed the
people that wash you are calledthe Hevra Kedisha, and that is
the society of friends.
And when you are doing that actof humility of washing your

(01:16:19):
fellow deceased brother withothers while prayers are being
said, you're doing something forthat person that he cannot
repay you.
There's no way he can repay you.
So that is the ultimate act ofbrotherly love.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
You're doing it for somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
I love that, and so, if we carry that into masonry, a
lot of faiths do ritual washingprior to burial.
The Native Americans did, theMuslims do, the Hindus do, the
Jews do, I don't know if otherfaiths do or not, but all I can
say is that that act of humility, that act of service, and we

(01:16:57):
can do that in masonry.
Today, for instance, I'm goingto do something of service that
can't be repaid.
I'm going to donate blood.
I haven't donated blood inyears.
We have the blood mobile at ourlodge.
As soon as we're done with theinterview, I'm leaving, and once
I eat something I don't want tofaint, but that's the way we
give back.
So masons give back, we do.
I eat something I don't want tofaint.

(01:17:17):
That's the way we give back.
Masons give back Brothers.
We need to continue to do that,because it is through giving
that we receive only.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
If you want to keep it, you've got to give it away.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
That's the deal.
People like to say masonrytakes good men and makes them
better.
Uh, I, I always have toldpeople my take on free masonry
is that it provides men thetools to make themselves better
if they choose to use them.
Because that's a more accuratedescription of free masonry.
Uh, it's true, one of thequickest ways to improve

(01:17:56):
yourself is doing things forother people that don't involve
you benefiting from them.
That's how we improve as peopleis learning humility.
Honestly, it is a big part ofbecoming a better person.
This is where the confusion ofcharity and Freemasonry comes in
, because Freemasonry isn't acharity.
We aren't a 5013C, we're not anofficial charity, we aren't a
5013C right, right, we're not anofficial charity.

(01:18:17):
We're a fraternity, which isdifferent than a charity.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
We fall under the 5013C in Florida.
The Masonic Charity is Florida,but that's for charitable
purposes.
But we are considered afraternity, a charitable
fraternity.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
So we're not a charity in the sense that this
is our driving purpose.
But our driving purpose, butour driving purpose being to
make good men better.
You can't do that without actsof charity and that's why
Freemasonry is well known forits charity, because it's just a
part of our system of makinggood men better and charity.
The lowest form of charity isgiving your money.

(01:18:49):
The highest form is giving yourtime, because you can't get
that back.
Like you said, right, you canget money back.
You can always make more moneybecause you can't get that back.
Like you said, right, you canget money back.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
you can always make more money, but you can't make
more time, right exactly that'sexactly right, so that that that
that's, that's a, that's aperfect, uh, perfect way to uh
to wrap it up well we're notwrapping up.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
Yet now we got it.
We're an hour and 20 in and wedo need to.
You know I, I know I don't.
I want to be respectful of yourtime, but the last.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
I do have one more question for you that I wanted
to ask you, so I'm assuming thispart will get edited out.
No, no, no, no, no.
This set, this set right hereokay, we keep it real man.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
My guess you try to get away.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
I'm gonna pull you back in.
No, no, no, no.
This is.
You're listening to chris andmark.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
My question for you is uh, my, my goals.
And when I joined thefraternity and I saw how what I
saw in the beginning was I wantto become the master of a lodge
and I want to do this my way andand I did those things and now
I'm satisfied.
I have no desire to seek anyfurther officer positions or
titles in the fraternity.
I now am going to be thepodcast guy and the traveling

(01:20:00):
man.
That's my role in Freemasonry.
But what are your goals inMasonry Now that you're the
Worshipful Master?
For some people, this is justthe beginning of their Masonic
Journal, because they have manyother goals.
So what are yours?
I'm curious.

Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
Well, over the years I thought to myself.
I thought would I like to be adistrict deputy grandmaster or
would I like to join the grandline?
And I've spent more time nowgoing.
Masonry has worked for me inthe sense that it's helped make
me a better man, and so I wantother things in my life.

(01:20:37):
I want to go back to my writing, because I'm a writer Same here
, and so I also don't desirefurther office.
Yeah, I've already in thecorporate world.
When you get the tap or the nodwhich is like would you like to
go up the ladder?
I've had that happen in thecorporate world.
When you get the tap or the nodwhich is like would you like to
go up the ladder I've had thathappen in the corporate world.

(01:21:00):
I've actually had that happenin the Masonic world.
I was asked at Grand Lodge ifI'm free to travel with the
Grandmaster's party and I turnedthem down.
I know they look for capablepeople who are at a place in
their life, but I also realizedthat, you know, at a different
time in my life I would havebeen so honored and, yeah, I'll

(01:21:23):
do it, no matter what.
I wouldn't have thought of theconsequences.
Well, I like my marriage, youknow.

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
So you know it's funny.
You say that we have a Mason inour district.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith Wright Worshipful Ron
Baber.
I am very well.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
Okay, so Wright, worshipful.
I saw him recently at theinstallation in Peace River
Lodge 66.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
He was the installing marshal, yes, and he's good.
He's good.
Well, I formed a competitiondegree team to compete this year
at the state level and, uh,after much convincing right
worshipful on, ron baber cameout of retirement.
He is a what he calls a retiredmason.

(01:22:08):
He doesn't go to lodge, hedoesn't participate in masonic
things, but he came out becausehe really believes that.
Well, he, he wanted to help myMasonic career.
He didn't know that I didn'twant to pursue a traditional
Masonic career, but I washonored that he was willing to
come out to help me.
And what he told me oneafternoon after practice, when
we were sitting quietly together, was Chris, I have to be really

(01:22:32):
careful because my wife hasbeen a Masonic widow for too
long.
She deserves better than that,because he was an incredibly
active Mason.
He won competitions, he was aright worshipful district, he
did it all.
But that comes at a cost and Iand you aren't willing

(01:22:54):
necessarily to pay the price.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
No, I'm not, Because, if you think about it, one of
the goals, one of the takeawaysof Masonry should be balance.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
Balance correct.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
And that goes in all life.
I've been invited to beinstalled, not installed,
initiated Eastern Star.
So I will this week, I'll beinitiated Eastern Star this week
.
I will this week, I'll beinitiated Eastern Star this week
.

Speaker 1 (01:23:18):
Is your wife going to join you?

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
She was given the opportunity and she's declined.
So I'm doing it really more tosupport the Eastern Star.
I know there's things to learnfrom it and given the fact that
and I've seen plenty it's theonly Masonic-appendant body
that's co-ed, yes, and given thefact that the and I've seen
plenty it's it's the onlymasonic appendant body that's
co-ed, yes, you know, and um uhgiven the fact that we are going
states.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
That's true, pardon me.
In the united states that's thecase.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
It's the only, only co-ed masonic body that exists
here for us in the states so Iam, uh, they know that I'm
moving and you know, and, giventhe fact that my focus now is
entirely on Blue Lodge becauseI'm a member of all bodies, but,
at the same time, my my effortson scottish right, yes, I, I

(01:24:09):
find the learning incredible.
I know that you are alsoscottish right as well and, um,
I find and it would be a neatgoal to read morals and dogma in
my life, if I can.
It's pretty tough stuff yeah but, um, but I, I, really I.

(01:24:31):
When I heard that scottishright was the, the University of
Mason, the College of Masonry,you know that, that that that
lit me up with something.
Let me say one thing.
I also want to tell you that,that about how I operate as a
Mason, which has taught mesomething.
We all have heard for years howthe Masons were always the
who's, who of the communityright, they were always the

(01:24:54):
somebody's, the founders of thiscountry, etc.
I always look at the characteron Monopoly games, the little
mayor, the little portly mayorwith his tuxedo on.
You know, like that.
I think of that.
And then my late mother-in-lawgave me a 19.
It was either, I think it was a1904 or 1914 monitor from the

(01:25:15):
state of Iowa or Illinois orsomething like that.
And I read it.
They were the who's, who's.
They were even in their speech,mannerism, actions and writing.
So one thing I've taken awayfrom that is I don't make
excuses for using words that aredifficult to understand.
I don't do it on purpose,because I won't dumb down how I

(01:25:37):
talk for anybody.
I'd rather them say brother,what do you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
Lift that up to your level, yeah lift them up, you
know, and I'm not doing that tobe snobby or intellectual or an
elite, I'm not doing that.
I'm doing that because if weare Masons, we are supposed to
be examples and rhetoric are twovery important things to masons
.
Exactly, exactly.
So that's why I try to use thatin my writing.
I use it in my writing, I useit in my discussions, you know,

(01:26:08):
using Colgate rather than drillinto my head.
That's a word I learned fromFreemasonry.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
I heard it so many times that I Googled it and I
said, oh, that's what it means.
What oh drill?
No.
Yeah, well that's what it means, drill through repetition
Inculcate.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Right, right Drilling it in through repetition,
exactly so you learn.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
And for those that don't know, we know we're not a
sect and we're not a cult.
It's just we have a culture,not a cult.
We have a culture.
It is a beautiful culture oflove, acceptance and really
accumulating as much knowledgeas you can as a man.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
And I love your brother.
That's right, you love me.
We're buddies.
Love your brother.

Speaker 1 (01:26:53):
I want to tell you this because you are on this
podcast and I haven't beeninterviewing a lot of local
masons that write worship rolesor huge titles.
You're probably the first andlet me tell you why.
I moved out of state and I knowyou're moving out of state.
When I told people I was movingout of state, I discovered who

(01:27:14):
my friends were and who I hadtransactional relationships with
, and it became glaringlyobvious who associated with you
because they thought they couldget something from you and who
just wants to be a brother andthat's really the goal of their
relationship with you is to be abrother.
You quickly showed yourself tobe a brother to me and then I

(01:27:39):
discovered later that you weremoving yourself and I wanted to
prepare you that as thatinformation comes to light,
don't be disappointed, becauseyou'll.
It's good to discover who youhave real relationships with and
who who you have transactionalrelationships with, and that
will come to light as they findout that you're leaving and that
you can't benefit their careeras directly as they could.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
That's true, it was.
I was somebody whispered by hiscounsel at one point and said
well, you know, play it down,because nobody's going to want
to work for you.
And I'm like, nobody works forme anyway, I work for them.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
But more importantly, Whoever said that to you is the
exact person I'm talking about.
It's the kind of person thathas a mentality of transactional
relationships.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
Right.
I've been blessed in my life tohave also what are called time
and space relationships.
You may know what those are,but like, for instance, when you
go back to wherever you camefrom upstate New York and you
happen to chat with.
You know there are certainfriends I have.
Give an example my chiropractor.
My chiropractor, I went to highschool with right and I was

(01:28:48):
over at Robarts Arena one dayfor a health fair.
I was just going through and Iran into him and it's like the
40 years that we didn't talk toeach other never existed.
That's great.
We picked right up.
So I do have some time and space, friends that I wouldn't see,
them pretend.
I mean, I've got friends rightnow in Alaska from when I lived

(01:29:08):
up in Alaska years ago, that Icould just go to their house and
have dinner, and it's just likeyesterday.
It's like yesterday you knowwhat this brings to memory at
dinner, and it's just likeyesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
It's like yesterday.
You know what this brings tomemory.
This is another moment withWorshipful Mark Tishman that
I've never told him but I'mgoing to share now because it
impacted not just me but otherpeople.
We started getting asked to doa lot of Masonic education
discussions, that we discussedMasonry openly on this podcast

(01:29:34):
and people in our local areastarted saying can you come and
do that Because we want to havethose kind of discussions?
And you were at a Master MasonAssociation meeting where we
were having a Masonic discussionand you said something quite.
It made me think of things in adifferent way, which doesn't
happen often and it sticks outin my mind.

(01:29:55):
We were talking aboutbrotherhood, as we are now, and
you said out of the blue youknow, you have to be careful
because we have a tendency to,when we like someone, we say I
like this about you or thatabout you and what we're
ultimately saying is I like youbecause you're like me Exactly
and what should be moreimportant, is I, you for you?

(01:30:17):
That should be our focus, right?
Maybe you could elaborate onthat point, because it really
sure in that discussion I thinkyou raised a lot of eyebrows and
made people think sure, um, thewhole thing about, um,
differences you can always focusin any group.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
You can focus your energy on your differences or
your similarities right, becauseyou can be a part of or a part
from.
You want to sit as if you're.
You want to sit there as ifyou're.
You know you don't fit in.
You can focus on that or youcan feel like you're part of the
group.
I learned that working in thecorporate world when my boss

(01:31:00):
went to lunch with one of mycolleagues and I sat at my
cubicle or desk being upset andvictimized that they didn't take
me.
And then later he said to methis is how it works.
How it works is you walk up tous at 11.20 and say where are we
going to lunch today?
Okay, right, how it works is youwalk up to us at 1120 and say
where are we going to lunchtoday?
Okay, right, so.
Or where you know where iseverybody going, and then you

(01:31:21):
make the assumption that you'rethat, you're that, you're
included, you're being, you'reincluded, so it's the same thing
.
So when you say I like your, Ithink what it is is.
It's very, very easy to,especially now in our society,
with what's going on in thiscountry, with the fraction, it's
very easy to look at the otheras the enemy, and it's

(01:31:45):
unfortunate that this is wheremasonry is not completely self
imploded because of the rule ofno religion and politics.
If that wasn't there, we'd havea lot fewer lodges, I'm sure.
Oh yeah, so at this moment, atthis moment in time in history,

(01:32:06):
there are people that I wouldnot normally hang out with right
in my lodge, but I hang outbecause we're brothers.
You're a different story.
I hang out with you because Ilike you and I like you because
you're like me, because I knowwe're breaking our own rules
here man, that's okay.
But, more importantly, I wouldjust tell you this.

(01:32:27):
I would just tell you that that, um, this concept of of being
like somebody just means thatyou, you don't see them as the
other.
Yeah, it's not that you're likeme so much, as that whole
obstacle piece isn't in there,that whole security piece isn't
in there.
And just also, when peoplechange in their life, because we

(01:32:47):
are human beings, we're likeplants, we change People.
You could say I no longer likethat person, and it may not be
because you moved away orwhatever.
It just means that they've gonedown a path that doesn't
resonate with you anymore andtherefore you choose not to
invest your energy in thatrelationship in the same way you
did.
I think that's the safest wayto say it yeah, that's a kind

(01:33:08):
way of saying it yes.
You know, I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:13):
And I mean it's a good we need to think about
these things, Because this ispart of us improving ourselves
is to recognize who we are as apeople, Because some of us, we
all have biases that we can'treally help.
It's just part of being a humanbeing.

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):
It comes back from our agrarian days, when you
would I mean right now, where Ilive, you talk about the deer
right in your yard.
Okay, where I live in Asheville, there's black bears.
Right, black bears are theother.
I am the other to them, right?
I walk outside.
We're not going up and saying,hey, buddy, want to come over
for dinner.
They'll go, I'll come over fordinner.

(01:33:53):
I'll be happy to come over fordinner.
I'll be happy to come overthere with my four inch claws.
Yeah, sure, I'll be happy tocome over for dinner.
You know, um, only your meal,right?
Exactly, exactly.
So so the the point I'm makingis that there are plenty of the
other out there, and thechallenge in masonry and which
is the opportunity as well asthe challenge is to have all

(01:34:14):
these, the others, become ourbrothers as opposed to our
others.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
I like that.
I just made it up.
Well, you know, you're, this isa, this is why we have a group
of different people.
You're, you're a little olderthan me.
You've you've taken more tripsaround the sun, you've had more
experiences with than I havehave, and so you've accumulated
a certain amount of wisdom andyou pass that on to people.
Uh, so that I don't have to,maybe I can learn that lesson

(01:34:44):
without having to learn have thepainful experiences.
You had to get to that point,you know I would.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
I'm coming as a as as a uh current sitting master and
I will join your group of pastmasters.
We can always say what do youdo?
I mean?
Perhaps people even in thispodcast would not have known how
to travel internationally had Inot sent about the letter and
the secretary.

Speaker 1 (01:35:09):
You'll be amazed at how many things you've said
today will resonate and peopleneeded to hear that at this
moment in their life.
Said today will resonate andpeople needed to hear that at
this moment in their life.
I'm always surprised at thethings people take away from
this podcast and, uh, we do itbecause of that.
People need to hear things andthey need to feel like they're
not alone.
Um, that's great.
They need positivereinforcement about the

(01:35:30):
fraternity and that's why,although we both had negative
experiences I think we both wedidn't even have to have the
conversation.
Neither one of us wants tofocus on those negative
experiences.
We want to focus on they're notproductive.
How can we help?
What can we do to talk aboutthe future?

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
And I said going into my year, I said at an officer's
meeting I say all the time andI learned this from Right
Worshipful Tom Haber.
He said Tom's Tom Haber.
He said that people, he's Tom'sgood guy, he's good people.
You know he's one of the mosthumble servants, I know he's a
great man and a great Mason, and.

Speaker 1 (01:36:02):
God willing we can convince them to get into the
grand East at some point.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
That would be neat.
You know what I mean.
But anyway he, he taught methat when people are going to
come at you all day long withproblems and he said, don't come
up with a problem unless youhave a solution in the other
hand, that's right.
Otherwise, I'm a sounding.
Otherwise, all I am is asounding, you're just bitching.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
If you don't come up with a solution, you're just
bitching, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
There's no point in just bitching, you better think
about it before you come up witha problem, exactly.
There's no point in justbitching.
You better think about itbefore you come to that problem
Exactly.
I mean and what's your solution?
And I've practiced it already,even with people that I don't
necessarily get along, and Isaid that, and I said what's
your solution?
And the person, sure enough,came back with three solutions.

Speaker 1 (01:36:51):
Beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
You taught them to think before, before they speak,
which is an important part ofbeing a better man okay, here's
what's going to happen?
Uh, we're over an hour and ahalf in now, so I understand I
have to tighten loose.
You can't, I can't, keep youforever, uh, I I do appreciate
you.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
Well, if you were, if your wife and you were making
breakfast, I'd be there in asecond and I will come.

Speaker 1 (01:37:13):
I can smell it and that is part of the reason I
want to go.
We're both early birds and sowe got up early and started
recording before my wife woke up.
But I've heard her preparingsomething up there and I can
smell it a little bit.
But I do want to say thank youfor coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:37:30):
I really appreciate it for being invited.

Speaker 1 (01:37:32):
Yes, no it's our honor to have you here and I
really want to give you theopportunity here at the end to
speak to uh masons throughoutthe world who might be listening
to this podcast.
Uh, you know, you're now themaster of your lodge in sarasota
.
You're a 60 something year oldman.
Uh, at this point in your lifeand, uh, you you know, what

(01:37:56):
would you like to share on theway out with those Masons out
there listening, just theeveryday Mason who's not maybe
even an officer in his lodge,he's just a Mason.
What would you share for thatbrother out there?
And I'm going to do this so youhave time to think.

Speaker 2 (01:38:23):
And here comes the wisdom.
Okay, remember that what youlearn in the lodge is not just
to be carried in lodge.
In other words, you're notthere just to be on your best
behavior.
You're going to carry what youlearn out into your life, into
the world, and that is how youwill make the world a better
place.
As my grandmother, love is likesunshine there's always plenty
to go around.

Speaker 1 (01:38:46):
Very good.
I appreciate the wisdom.
Very important message forMasons Free Masonry in your Blue
Lodge is training wheels forlife.
Take the training wheels offand go right off into the sunset
as a mason out in the world.
Uh, right now the world needsyou.
So thank you, brotherworshipful master, for coming on
the podcast and, uh, hopefullythis won't be the last time we

(01:39:09):
have you on.
I'd love to have you on againonce you're done with your
journey in the east.
I know you're busy this year.
I won't bother you, but I'dsure like to talk after you've
been out of the East about youryear and how it feels to no
longer have the burden.

Speaker 2 (01:39:21):
It's a pleasure.
It's been a privilege and anhonor to be here and I look
forward to being back and lookforward to seeing you before
then.
All right, all right, thank you.

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