The Digital Evolution of Freemasonry with Jonathan Greene

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We have to decide what to do with the time that
has given us.
You've reached the internet'shome for all things masonry.
Join on the level podcast as weplumb the depths of our ancient
craft and try to unlock themysteries, dispel the fallacies
and utilize the teachings ofpre-masonry to unlock the great

(00:23):
within each of us.
I have you now.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
That was nice man, that was nice I like that new
little intro there.
I like the Darth Vader line inthere.
I don't know if you can see it,but I got Darth Tater right
there.
He's a potato head Darth VaderRight there.
And right there is Mastur Yoda,also a potato head.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
You got a Stormtrooper Lego head.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
I got my own in the row.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, it's the Stormtrooper Lego guy.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
I have like three legs.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Oh no, I got you dude .
Wait a minute, here we go.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
There it is.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
I'm just going to turn on.
If you do one of theseApparently, you have to be 1%
smarter than the lifesaver, soanyway.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Mine's on a display stand with my Sith name in neon
lights and the holder.
Yeah, super nerd.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
If you don't have Star Wars stuff within arms
reach of your desk, I'm not surewe can be friends.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
So this plaque my officers gave me at, you know,
at the next guys and at theworship all Zach Wheely's
installation, and it says ChrisSith Burns, and there's light
sabers on the left and there's aStar Trek phaser on the right
and it says I'm standing there.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, Are you more of a?
Are you more of a Star Wars ora Star Trek guy?

Speaker 1 (02:05):
I'm an equal opportunity lover of sci-fi and
fantasy.
I get down on both the equallyman.
I can't say one's better thanthe other.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
I think on a visceral level I like Star Wars better,
but Star Trek is this likereally deep commentary on the
nature of humanity?
You know it's like socialcommentary big time.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, yeah, and it's a snapshot in time.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
You know it's like a time capsule for me.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, Star, Star Wars appeals to the child in us.
It's like that fantasy of likeI want to save and be the hero
and it's really a Western If youlook at it programmatically
right.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, it sort of is, whereas Star Trek's more of this
running commentary on thenature of humanity it used to be
.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
They have a.
I don't know if you watched, isit just Star Trek Discovery?
Where they go way in.
I just can't with that.
I like tried so hard and it'slike this one woman saves the
universe.
Every episode I'm like get outof here with this crap Like I
can't do it and I was almostgiving up on it.

(03:10):
I'm like I can't do it withthis modern Star Trek stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Give me William Shatner, like overacting,
bouncing off the rails any day,you know, spock.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
There's something on the way.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, I dressed as Kirk oneyear and I talked for Halloween
all day as Kirk and it annoyedeverybody around me.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
I love it Nice.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Outstanding Thanks for having me back man.
Yeah, man, welcome back to theshow, the new on the level
podcast.
You've been on the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I think you brought me back because of my obvious
charm and good looks, now thatyou've gone to the video format,
yeah.
I mean, who else are you goingto get this?
Going to wear a spinous, towork out a tire on them on the
podcast.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
So I mean, all we can see is your shoulders.
So there's no, you know,there's no judgment here.
I see a little bit of a tattoocoming through there under the
sea.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, I got a few, you too.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Oh, you got a lot more than that.
Does it go all the way aroundthe back in the front?

Speaker 2 (04:09):
No, I haven't.
You know, I've been saving thatspace but I got a pretty gnarly
like Masonic chess piece comingup.
Oh, of course it's all going tobe hermetic symbolism, so even
most pre-mations will have noidea what the hell I'm talking
about.
But it's okay, it's all right.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well, well, I'm glad that you came back.
The reason you're back so soonis because we didn't get much
time.
In our first interview we wereactually on location in DC.
There were distractions.
We actually had to go to aninstallation so we were trying
to ram it in there because wejust met you and we knew when we
left it would be difficult.
So we just got a quickie inthere and I think we touched on

(04:47):
marketing a little bit and thatshort interview that we did.
I think it might have beenmostly marketing that we talked
about.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
And cigars.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
And cigars yes.
My favorite thing is the guard,the cigar stuff's really got
some interesting thingshappening, but we'll talk about
that when I can talk about that.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
No right, Can't talk about it yet.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
But our primary sponsor is the three Ruffians.
They fund some of the softwarewe're using, so appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
And.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
I hear that I don't smoke cigars very often, but I
hear they make a pretty goodstick.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Well, I've had all of theirs now, I believe.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Oh, you did.
I tried them all.
Yeah, I really liked the one.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
I don't remember the names, but I liked the one with
the blue band the best.
It was like a medium.
To me it had characteristics oflike Honduran tobacco.
I don't know if that's true ornot, but that's what it seemed
like to me.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
It's Cuban leaf, Nicaraguan grown, I believe.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, it was really nice it was.
It had a bit of naturalsweetness like almost a milk
chocolate.
Nice, it's berth, it was good.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
To me every cigar is the same.
They smell the same, they tastethe same.
I got to develop my palate forsure.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
You know, in the beginning I was that way but I
tend to be intentional aboutthings that I'm interested in.
So what I did is I got like abullet journal, a little pocket
sized bullet journal, andstarted taking and like a glue
stick and put it in a fanny packyou know like so be riding
under my clothes, like I wasreal serious about it.

(06:22):
So I would go smoke a cigar, Iwould take the band off, glue it
, stick it in the bullet journaland I would write down my
impressions of like what Ithought the flavor notes might
be that I was experiencing.
And then later on I would goGoogle it and match whatever I
thought with whatever theinternet said.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and over time.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I started to like make the connections like, okay,
that's earth that I was, that Iwas tasting, or that's dark
chocolate or raisin or whatever.
Yeah, I still don't have like ahuge vocabulary, but I can get
pretty close, like close to you.
You know what I mean to.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
I hear you're talking about that and I also hear wine
drinkers talk like that and Ijust know good and bad.
You know, I've had a $600bottle of wine and I like my $7
bottles more, you know.
I don't have enough palette, Iguess, to be kind of like snoozy
.
What's the word I'm looking for?

(07:19):
Like snobby, like a snobby.
Yes, yeah, yes.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, Like if it costs more than $14 at Publix it
probably ain't happening.
But and my vocabulary for winelike pretty much tops out at
like grapey or dry.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, that's kind of like thefruity stuff.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
I want it to be like bitter, almost like a salad
dressing.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
That's what I like yeah, like you're punishing
yourself like drink this andlike it All life is about that.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
I'm going to punish myself.
That's why I smoke marble reds.
If I'm going to smoke, I'm on amen ball.
Come on no there's vaping stuff.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
If you're going to do it, get cancer.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
My God, get cancer and make it taste like a, like a
bear's bugle.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
That's what I go way off track already Like this is.
This is what happens.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
It's called rabbit holes man.
Everybody that listens to thisshow knows about it and that's
why they don't listen that oftenprobably.
You know it's like God damn it.
We're going to talk aboutmarketing and then talking about
tasting bears, but holes eightminutes.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Well, I know, I know that you and I have both been
doing marketing since probablyabout seven AM this morning,
right?

Speaker 1 (08:28):
So yeah, I, right up until we started recording yes,
today, I think.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I heard somebody speak about you the other day.
I heard the tail end of aconversation and he was like
don't believe what they said.
I know what it was.
We're starting to see thecandidates for the grand south
like go around and do theirspills and I heard a spiel and
it had some marketing componentsand he was like referencing
this worship master from hisdistrict who's a professional

(08:54):
marketer.
And this I knew it was you.
I knew it was you right away.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
So there's a few of us out there in Florida actually
that are kind of known asmarketing guys that do stuff in
the fraternity.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
So we should make a club or something.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know, the thing is like most of us are loners.
You know that's why we're doingwhat we do.
We like to, we don't like towork with others.
We know we're smart and we knowwe can help people, and so we
pretty much tell hey, if youtalk to anybody but me, you're
an idiot, because I know what todo, Like I'm the smartest guy
in the world.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
We all practically required to be a professional
marketer, that you believe inyour own legend, right?
Like you how else are you goingto be like oh yeah, I'll spend
your hundred grand a month onads.
Like you just have to believethat you're the guy.
You know what I mean, of course, yeah.
Or else, what are we doing here?
Like yeah, it might besuccessful with your hundred?

Speaker 1 (09:47):
grand.
No, like absolutely not.
Okay, I tell you what I'm goingto do my best with a hundred
thousand.
Okay, I'll do my best.
No one wants to hear thosewords.
They want to hear.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
I don't know what kind of budget you guys work
with, but that's a reasonablysmall budget for me, like I
usually do.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Oh, we do it all, man .
I have people that spend.
I have some franchises in thefranchise.
He spent a hundred dollars amonth on Facebook and I managed
that.
And then this is.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
we definitely should not discuss this on this podcast
, but I'm interested in yourmodel Like how do you staff up
to do that profitably?

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes, presumably you have to have 900 of those people
.
So with a, I look at uh,actually, this is a great time.
This is great time becauseFreemasonry is essentially a
franchise model.
If you look at it, it's abusiness.
We have the Grand Lodge ofFlorida, which is our franchise,
or every blue lodge is afranchisee, and we're supposed

(10:41):
to operate under the sameguidelines.
The franchise or gives us rightand our job is to sell the
product.
That's why we have franchiselicenses, aka warrants and
charters that allows to sellproduct in our areas.
Now I dig it right.
It's exactly a marketing.
It is a hundred percent ofmarketing thing.
And the way I look at thefranchise model is it doesn't

(11:04):
make sense until you get toscale.
Thank, thank you, if youabsolutely if you run a
marketing program like like theGrand Lodge marketing
reimbursement program at fivewatches, one Lodge is gonna do
great and four might suckbecause they do it differently
right, but if you had hundredand fifty lodges running it, I

(11:24):
think that you would see thatthis is a massively successful
program over yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
It's all like.
All marketing in the modernages is operates on the law of
averages.
Yeah you know what I mean.
Like I'm, I think, what youwould consider to be an elite
tester and peripheral splittester, sort of my claim to fame
, and I'm really good at it.
And you know, for most clientsover in due course I will get
like, if they come in with a 5%conversion rate, I'm gonna get

(11:52):
them 10, you know I mean, but Istill fail six out of ten times.
Yeah, I mean the process ofiteration in the law of averages
.
I always win because I'mtenacious and and I hypothesize.
Well, and isn't that true?

Speaker 1 (12:07):
about almost everything in life.
It's the guy who overcomes theobstacles and gets good at
overcoming the obstacles thatbecomes the most successful.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, like I sit down with clients that I'm
onboarding and I say, look,we're gonna fail a lot and we're
gonna achieve your goals likewe're gonna fail on to your
desired outcome.
But it's all about intelligentiteration in it, you know other
people call it a B testing.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
That's what a lot of people are.
I'm gonna a B test, I'm gonna aB test and I hear it all the
time and even from my own teamwill be on meetings.
So we're gonna a B test thisand that and I get off the call
and the clients on and I'm likehave you ever made a decision
for this client based on a Btesting?
You've got no Right.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Well, I think the vast majority of people don't
know how to do it correctly, andI have a graduate level.
Education is statistics, solike if you want to get an A, b
testing will run everybody offyour podcast.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm just telling you right now, nobody cares.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
I was telling you, if you want to mess them up next
time, just be like Okay, whatwas the level of confidence on
that?
And if they can answer thatquestion, then say, well, what
was the statistical power?
And they'll immediately meltdown because they have no idea
what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, when you know what you're talking about it,
you really don't have any fearin your, in your market because,
like with in marketing and Idon't know that every industry
is this way, but marketing is abit of a commodity.
You can get it almost anywhereand the the quality is really
hard to judge for the consumer.

(13:39):
They really don't know.
They're basing it offtestimonials and what you tell
them.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
The only way is yeah, I can go through my Facebook
DMs and pull out 900testimonials.
All marketers definitely,definitely are not created equal
, absolutely no definitely not.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
So we're but um you, we both have the same when
you're in marketing.
Rarely are you getting afirst-time customer that's never
done marketing before ever ithappens sometimes, but very
rarely.
Usually you're taking someonethat has been abused by another
marketing company and.
I Often compared to newteammates that come into my

(14:15):
company that look, you have tolook at this as an abused wife
Relationship.
This person has been abused foryears and now, anytime you move
quick, they're gonna gettwitchy.
They're not gonna trust you.
You're gonna have to overexplain like, okay, I'm gonna
put my hands on your shouldernow, this is a friendly.
That's how you got to treatthese people as a marketer.

(14:36):
Like, look, I'm gonna spend themoney over here, don't worry,
this is safe, it's good.
Like you said, we will makemistakes, but you're gonna wind
up on top.
You gotta let me do my job.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, and ironically, approaching the craft to spend
money on marketing is just likethat, even if it's going to get
reimbursed.
They're like you know, it waslike whoa, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Guys, it's he's gonna reimburse.
So this started because mosthorse-whisper foster cornered me
to grandmasters visit before hewas the grandmaster.
Someone had said my nameprobably someone that I'm from
my lodge or something and he'slike I want to do a program like
this.
And I said alright, I only haveone requirement.
And he said I can't make a newcommittee.

(15:20):
I'm like I don't want a newcommittee.
You have to pay for it.
But don't worry, everything'sgonna be trackable and it's
gonna be cheese no more than sixhundred dollars.
And he said okay, I'm in.
Because I thought in myignorant mind that if they paid
for it, everyone would do it.
Right, where's the risk?
If they're paying for it Likethere's no risk, why wouldn't

(15:41):
everybody do it?

Speaker 2 (15:42):
It's so funny to me, literally like I'm.
You know I'm gen X, like I wasborn in 1980 on the line.
So I'm gen X, but I'm Jim Yright, I'm like the elder
millennial for real, you know.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
That's my sensibilities.
Generational Down syndrome.
You're missing a chromosome oryou have an extra.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
I'm weird, I straddle both things.
So, like I, I definitelyremember what it's like to drag
the curly phone cord across thehouse and oh yeah, oh I talked
to a girl.
I definitely remember that, andthe rotary dial, I remember
that, but I'm also equallycomfortable with technology.
Yeah, right, so.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Well, yeah, I can't casting.
And we were young when theinternet became a thing.
I was still playing MortalKombat, actually, you know like
yeah 100%.
We were hungry for that stuffwhen it came out, so we
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, I mean, it revolutionized everything.
But if you're, if you're belowa certain age, you sort of went
with it.
If you're still young enough tohave been malleable and ductile
when it started to happen, yousort of swam upstream and and
I'm okay.
I'm okay with podcasting, I'mokay with the internet.
Whatever the internet scaresthe hell out of the craps, like

(16:51):
it's a dark chasm ofmisunderstanding.
Yeah, so I, like I'm sort ofdedicated to, or at least one of
the things that I'm passionateabout, is sort of helping the
craft understand that this isactually having tages to us.
It's a benefit, it can be aboon if we approach it correctly
, and so that's why I'm superappreciative of the things that
you're doing with podcasting,etc.

(17:12):
So some of these modalitiesbegin to be adopted.
They can raise the tide for allships.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
You're fairly new to the fraternity.
How long now have you been amaster mason?

Speaker 2 (17:24):
So eight months raised a mate, a master mason
eight months.
And you got to keep me out oftrouble, by the way, in this
conversation, because I'm so new, I'll offend somebody guarantee
?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Well, undoubtedly, we both will.
Don't worry, that's not a timething, that's just a personality
thing.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
I was at the lodge.
We were looking at the signsout on the outside of the lodge
and I was like that sign lookslike hell and obviously the guy
standing next to me was a dude.
They're like hand-painted, thesign.
I'm like.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, I stood in lodge and I said I'd like to
make a motion that you let meredesign our pin.
And then the past master Poppedup that designed the pin two
years ago.
It was like what are youtalking about?
This is brand new design.
I was like, oh I, it'sbeautiful, I just make you have
options for the pin, notredesigned it.
You know, no offense.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, but I'll give you a prime example.
So it's it's um election seasonor getting ready to be for the
Grand South, right?
So they're starting to travelaround and do their speaking
thing and I'm not gonna name anynames just to be safe, but I've
already heard one speech wherethe guy came in hot on marketing
.
He's like we need to do betterwith marketing.
I like lean forward, mm-hmmGood.
Did you ask questions, did you?

(18:35):
get him to no by the time he wasdone talking, I could tell it
was absolutely pointless to askquestions.
Okay so, but he's like.
So what we need to do is weneed to get blurbs for the
things we're doing in thecommunity and our local
newspapers Impossible impossibleand irrelevant, impossible.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
So when I became the first position I held, that got
me all excited and freemasonry.
I was a district committee manfor public relations and
publicity.
Go look up the definition inFlorida For what public
relations and publicity's job is.
You're supposed to contact thenews and get our, our local
stuff, whatever is going on atyour lodge in the news.
Two years, every stated meeting, every call communication, any

(19:21):
spaghetti dinner, anything wedid, nobody returned to call,
ever, ever, ever, ever.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
After the newspaper, after the news channels, nobody
well, you know this becauseyou're a marketing guy.
But, first of all, pitching forPR is hard.
There are people who that'stheir entire life, um, and they
have Formulaic, rigorousapproaches to pitching and like
actual PR professionals whenthey want to place media.
You know they'll send out 10000 pitches, they have a whole

(19:52):
curated list and and they'llspend days like work, shopping
what they're saying in the pitchand and deriving value and
Portraying interest, because thenews needs to feel like people
are interested, right.
All of which is is a reason whyit probably Isn't going to work
at scale.
But the more important reasonthat we shouldn't care Is that

(20:14):
nobody has read a newspaper for15 years.
Right, like, nobody.
Like, if it depends on who youwant, right.
If you want, then look, I gotno problem with boomers.
Love you guys.
If you want boomers who aregoing to be in the paternity per
five years before they can'twalk up the stairs anymore,
let's do newspapers.
If you want everybody else onplanet earth, I don't read a

(20:37):
newspaper.
I read a feed reader, like Iget.
You know, I get my feeddirectly from AP and it comes
directly to my phone.
I haven't touched the newspaper.
Newspapers are complete wasteof energy.
To me, and I think Most peoplein our generation or younger Do
you have no concept.
It's like the rotary phone.
They don't have any concept ofwhat this is, and so, ergo,

(21:00):
chasing that modality ofcommunication is A complete
waste of time.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
It is.
It's one of the many outdatedthings that we're still clinging
to as an organization and youknow that it's like.
It's like Our leadership.
In these jurisdictions itvaries, but in the state of
florida, if you look at theaverage age of our grand lodge

(21:26):
officers, it is representativeof the membership.
It's an earth crowd Right now.
I was doing a lot with Texasrecently and the grand lodge
officers in Texas Aren't likethat.
You got guys in their 30s thatare grand lodge officers in that
state and I believe that's justbecause they have different

(21:49):
thinking about recruitment andwe're trying to get people
thinking more about recruitingBecause, as you said, the people
that we're trying to recruit,whether they're 20 years old or
they're 45, 50, 60 years old,probably aren't reading
newspapers.
They're probably reading socialmedia 100%.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
So if you, if you really wanted to like in terms
of return on effort right, let'snot.
Let's just ignore money for amoment, let's just talk about
return on effort If you reallywanted to raise the tide for the
craft, the way to do that isnot Pitching PR.
That's going to get smallplacements and community
newspapers at best and wheremajor news outlets are really

(22:33):
not going to care.
There's a whole impressionbased ecosystem out there when
you can deliver tons ofinformation in a concise format
that people care about Very,very cheaply.
So if you, if you really wantedto do PR for your lodge, get a
line item expense of 50 a month.

(22:53):
Yeah and shoot videos and photosof what you're doing in the
lodge in the community and boostit.
Boost it for, you know, twodollars a day and watch what
happens like it will work farbetter.
And so look, when it comes tomarketing, I come off hot
because I'm an expert at what Ido, like it, unassailably, I

(23:17):
make a living.
I, you know I run severalbusinesses on the CMO of another
business, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So, like I come off hot, but I'm sympathetic
marketing officer for peoplethat don't work in marketing,
like what the hell's this?
Tmo.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, um, so I come off hot because I'm passionate
about it, but at the same time Iunderstand the reticence,
particularly of the more agedpre-masons, to sort of adopt
these modalities.
And I get that.
It's scary and and that'salways true of things that we
don't understand, sure, but, um,the ways in which Freemasonry

(23:55):
has traditionally spread, um,don't exist to a great extent
anymore.
We're talking about the nuclearfamily, which is famously
Disintegrated in this country,um, and we're talking about the
backyard barbecue, right, and Idon't even know my neighbors
like I, really, I mean, I meanabout them but you know, like

(24:16):
these, these things don't existanymore, and so at some point in
time, we're gonna have to thinkabout more intelligently the
way that we're gonna approachthis problem, and so maybe
better than talking about themarketing reimbursement program,
which is already out there, itis and and works, like you've
done it in Sarasota.
It took great effect.
I intend to do it as soon as Ican get the lodge cleaned up.

(24:37):
Um, so it will work.
It is a it's a perfectly goodprogram.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Sure, um, there's more than one way cat, though
right, that's all we know aboutmarketing.
Yeah, there's definitely notonly one silver bullet to
anything.
No, there's so many differentthings you can do of varying
degrees of effort and money andtime.
They're gonna net you apositive result, whether it
comes to awareness, buildingpositive vibes in your community

(25:05):
or Bringing in membership, likeyeah, and we should probably
give people some concrete thingsthat they can do in their lodge
, like the average show thatdoesn't have a, that isn't an
expert in marketing like you are.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Uh just things that brothers can do with a moderate
level of computer Abilitybecause that's the problem on a
nutshell, like like you and Ilook at it and go, okay, it's a,
it's a video lead ad onfacebook.
It couldn't be easier.
It's stealing so easy for abrother that, like, probably, is

(25:40):
a late adopter of email.
You know what I mean.
Like to to get online and getinto facebook and get into like,
you have to be able to create apage.
You have to be able to create abusiness manager.
You have to be able to link thetwo things.
Yeah, right, you have to writean ad.
You have to upload a video.
You have to get the ad approved.
God help you have any sort ofcompliance issue?

(26:01):
Right, like well, there aresignificant barriers to entry to
the craft, to doping.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
I will walk anyone through creating an ad.
It should take 15 minutes.
I have spent an hour and a halfon a call with brothers Trying
to figure out how to download avideo or find a file they
downloaded on their computer.
Like that's the level of likecomputer.
So that's the level ofexpertise we're talking about

(26:30):
here, with many people that arein charge of the things that Are
requiring some technicalexpertise.
Yeah, so it's like we reallyhave to think as marketers that
are masons.
We really have to find a way tolike communicate with those
people and get them tounderstand what we're saying,
because when we use big words,they just shut down.

(26:51):
They're not even listeninganymore.
They're just tuned out.
It's like this guy's he thinkshe's so smart, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
Well, whatever I get it, I getit, 100 get it.
That's why I kind of stoppedtalking tech.
When I would talk to lodges, Iwould talk emotion, like your
lodge is crumbling, it's gonnabe gone in 25 years.
Nothing here.

(27:11):
And you're here right now for ashort time.
You can do something about it,are you not gonna do something?
You get them all whipped upemotionally and they're like,
yeah, what do I gotta do?
And now we can have theconversation.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
See, I go about this the wrong way, because I think
it's foundational to understandwhy right and this works well in
business and it works verypoorly in Freemasonry, so to
understand why it is that youneed to do this thing.
So I like to lead with.
This is how algorithms operateand this is why Facebook, or
this is how Facebook, makesmoney.
And if you understand howFacebook makes money, then you

(27:43):
understand what you need to doto get syndication in this
platform.
Yes, like it ain't gonna work,I'm gonna have to do what you're
doing you used several wordsthat have multiple syllables in
them.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Okay, you gotta trim that down.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
man Like less syllables you know less word,
but I don't think the craft isstupid, I don't.
I think that they can play ifthey wanna play.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
When you're talking algorithms and you're talking,
you know it gets complicated forthem, really complicated, and,
like I said, it's not thatpeople can't understand this,
it's that they tune you out.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, that's a fact.
They can't understand itAbsolutely.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
they can understand it if they just listen.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
That's the key.
You gotta get them to listensomehow, because that's how See,
I'm committing marketingmistake number one right which
is not leading with pain.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
People only respond to pain.
They only respond toinconvenience and pain in their
own life, and if you don't leadwith pain, you're irrelevant.
Nobody cares what you have tosay, because you're not solving
any active problems.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
They already know you're smarter than them,
especially in this area.
So for you to come in that way,like they're-.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
Why you gotta go in on North Florida man.
What's up with that?

Speaker 1 (28:56):
I mean, you know, I really care about the fraternity
, I really do believe in thetenets of the fraternity like at
my core and that's why I'mwilling to do whatever it takes
to try to do my part to help mesucceed and thrive and grow.
And that's why I have zerotolerance for masons in name
only.
If you're not a real Mason,then I have no time for you.

(29:19):
I don't care what title youhave, I don't care what position
you have.
I'll respect the title becauseI am a Mason.
But I don't have time for youin my life and we need to bring
in more people that care aboutthe tenets of the fraternity
more than they care about thetitles and the honors and the
accolades, because I think, wehave had a period of time.

(29:42):
There was a period of time whenwe were on World War II where we
peaked and those guys justwanted brotherhood man.
They just wanted structure,because they had brotherhood and
structure in the military andthey were seeking it in this.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, I get that because I'm military, so I have
the military background and itis a really great replacement
for the camaraderie of peoplethat you served with.
What happens is you spend sometime in the military, you make
these really deep, abidingfriendships and then they're
dislocated, and you know what Imean.
People are all over the place,so, like I have lots of really

(30:18):
great friends, none of whom Iever see.
You know what I mean Becausethey're.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
It gets gathered to the winds after you're in the
military.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
So I needed that out of Freemasonry.
I needed camaraderie with menthat you can believe in or
worthy of respect and trust.
Right, you know?
And for the most part, that'swhat I found here and one of the
reasons why I think I'm in thesame boat as you.
Like, I love the craft, I'm not.
I come off hot because it's afact.
For one thing, people don'tnotice about me, I'm a stone

(30:47):
cold introvert, like I do notenjoy being around lots of
people or in front of people,the irony being that I do
marketing for a career and I'malways in board rooms, so like.
So I've learned how to marshalmy energy together and have
presence and fill a room with myenergy if I want, but I'm not

(31:08):
naturally gifted atinterpersonal relationship, and
so when you get me on a topicthat I'm passionate about, I
come off hot, like you know, andI'm just passionate, and so
sometimes like socially retarded, you know, almost.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
That's good, though.
People need to see the passion.
They need to see how, like thislittle fire into this guy, I
better you know it might makethem pay attention to you.
If you're really passionateabout what you're saying, they
might actually get their focusfor a minute.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Look, you messed up.
You made me a master Mason.
Now you gotta deal with me LikeI'm here.
We here now.
So no, we need brothers likeyou.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
I mean there were brothers before me, I'm sure,
doing trying to get moremarketing into the fraternity,
trying to utilize betterpractices, less waste,
streamline.
You know I'm sure there were.
It didn't feel like it to mebecause I felt like I was on an
island, all by myself, fightingagainst the ocean.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
And we had that conversation.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
you felt the same way at the beginning.
Like you're screaming into thevoid no one's listening.
Like look at my lodge, look atwhat's going around to me.
Like does anyone care about thebig picture?

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Does anyone?
I think I just figured out whatthis episode's gonna be about
really.
It's not really about marketing.
It's about leadership, becauseyou accomplished a thing in
terms of getting the marketingreimbursement program set up and
creating the scaffolding, ifyou will, and creating a process
.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
That's how I see it.
Exactly like that.
I hope that I provide.
I was really sad when you toldme about your experiences
because I was like damn it, Iwas hoping people like you would
come in behind me and not haveto fight quite as hard, like be
a little bit easier for you toget to pick up the ball and run
it further down the field,basically.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, yeah, Unfortunately I don't think it's
reached adoption in theconsciousness of the craft yet.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
It has.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
But what's really interesting to me is like I
think it's probably certain thatthere were people who tried
before us to do what we aredoing, oh yes, absolutely, and
yet you managed to do it andthey didn't.
And you're gonna balk at itwhen I say this, but you're a
naturally gifted leader.
Like you, run a company, youhave all of these skills.

(33:25):
So talk to me about that,because I think you're a lot
better at that than I am Hold onnow.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
now, this is my podcast.
I do the interviewing here.
Sorry, that's not fair.
I think we share a lot ofcommon traits and I think people
that own their own companiesand our entrepreneurs often do
we're crazy.
We're not normal people.
We do things that are-.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Certainly not rational at all.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
No, you have to be willing to take risks.
Right that normal people don'thave the fortitude to tolerate
the risk and, like you saidearlier, you're gonna fail a lot
You're gonna fail, so you haveto learn how to make the failure
part of the success.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's a normal part of the process to fail right, I
wrote a book called the FailFormula and that's exactly the
book right there.
Like how?
Do I iterate onto success.
Yeah, it's on Amazon.
You wanna check?

Speaker 1 (34:17):
it out, I wouldn't.
The Fail Formula by JonathanGreen on Amazon.
Check it out.
I'm gonna get my copy.
I wanted to autograph next timeI see you.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
All right, I just released another book last week
that was, like it's called,virtually Unstoppable and it's
about online instruction andpedagogy for like delivering
course instruction online.
So I just write books.
You don't have to.
Definitely don't read them,don't worry about it.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
That's the academic background.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
I think you were probably steeped in it.
So long you can't stop, there'sno stopping that.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
There's no stopping.
Don't feel like you need toread them, like if you did,
you'd be the one I'd know allright away I'll read them.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
I love reading, especially stuff from people
that I know, because I get toknow you better as a person when
I read your work.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, if nothing else I could do that I guess
probably last year I releasedanother one that was called Copy
Savant.
It's like Copy Savant how towrite conversion copy that works
, and so one of the problemsthat I was experiencing in
marketing was that there's andthis is probably true of
basically everything now thatYouTube has been proliferated at

(35:21):
large right, it's like there'sso much information about how to
do absolutely anything yeah,that people will go and start
researching how to write goodcopy from my business ads, right
and there's just so muchinformation that it's almost
disinformation.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
And they end up collecting best practices,
because the delivery format of99 out of 100 YouTube videos is
like here's what worked for mein my specific vertical.
Entrepreneurs grabbed thatinformation, say I'm gonna do
that, and they go and they writetheir little ad and it flops
and they're like why Different?
verdict I don't know why, do youthink?

(36:00):
Right, because it was adifferent audience and a
different product and adifferent vertical.
And so what I wanted to do andthis is, if you wanna know me,
this is the way my brain worksright?
I wanted to reduce how to writeeffective, converting ad high
converting ad copy to a seriesof first principles of consumer
psychology, right, like, whatactually causes people to take

(36:24):
conversion action.
You buy a thing, you don't buya thing, right?
And so I really worked for areally long time at reducing
let's throw all the bestpractices out, let's reduce it
to first principles, because ifyou understand the first
principles, you can become yourown walking best practice.
You put me in any vertical, anyproduct.
I'm gonna be able to synthesizewhat is the right thing to do

(36:46):
based on the principles ofconversion science and consumer
psychology, right, right?
So, making a long story short,and this is relevant to the
craft, the reason that peopledecide to do something or not to
do something invariably isbecause the intrinsic value of
the thing is greater than thecost associated with attaining

(37:07):
it.
Very simple.
So, for instance, you know, Ithey have this, this really dope
new air fryer.
It's got two chambers, I don'tknow, but like two chambers and
an air fryer.
Come on bro.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
So you can do your french fries and your green
beans at the same time my dinonuggies and my like in my Arby's
french fries at the same time.
Really fries.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, is there any other kind?
So you know, I don't know Twochambers.
So I go into Walmart I'm likeI'm gonna get this thing $228,
okay.
So now in my mind there's arubric of this running and it's
the same as what runs in yourmind when you make, when you
make any purchase decision.
It's the same is what happensin anyone's mind, regardless of

(37:51):
culture, situation.
It's always.
Is that is the utility of thatthing?
Great enough that I want topart with $228?
In my instance, yes, it isbecause you don't understand how
much I love my dino nuggies.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
All right, but you know like now.
Have you ever heard of aproduct called nugs?

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Nugs yes, yeah, yeah.
The plant-based chicken yes.
Their marketing is amazing,right?
Oh my god, it's so good.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
My wife got those nugs and I liked them.
They were cool, especially puta sauce on them.
But when I saw the marketing,that's when I got impressed I
was like, yeah.
Somebody knows what they'redoing over there for sure
talking about marketing, guys golook at nugs online Check out
what they're doing.
That's amazing branding thatthey got going on.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm.
It's funny.
I've never spoken to a marketerabout nugs that didn't geek out
with me on the quality of liketheir go-to-market strategies.
Primo is so the one.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
I like I got a bidet from Tushy.
Look at Tushy.
Oh man, it's good, it'shilarious.
I used to.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
I used to break down when.
When I was trying to intropeople to YouTube advertising, I
used to break down purplemattresses, youtube videos.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Purple mattresses?
I'm not purple mattress.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah, like, go look at their YouTube videos.
It's classic high shelf, likevideo advertising.
It's entertainment but superhigh converting.
I know the guy that ran them.
His name is Bryant.
I mean, he's a genius, likeseriously genius guy, but it's
all it's infotainment.
But somehow they've done it insuch a way that it still causes

(39:31):
commitment action, which is,yeah, it's really great.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
That's the best.
That's kind of where we need tobe as mason's like we need to
entertain but also sell ourproduct Right like, and when you
talk about cost versus value,people don't know the cost of
getting involved in a fraternity.
Yeah, it's easy for there aremultiple kinds there.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
So there are multiple kinds of cost.
Think about this for a minute.
There's fiscal cost yes, howmuch money do I have to exchange
for it?
It was also mental cost howhard mentally, how rigorous is
it going to be?
And there's time cost All ofthe opportunity.
Some people will call thatopportunity cost, some people
call mental cost friction ifyou're a marketer.
And then there's fiscal cost.
But all of those are differentcost types, and so if I, if I'm

(40:15):
a marketer and your valueassessment of Whatever it is I'm
asking you to do is not highenough that you're just gonna
obviously say yes, Then thetools that I have to play with
are Modulating the perceivedcost.
So I got to figure out a way tomessage about the fiscal cost,
the time cost, the mental cost,until value outstrips cost.

(40:35):
And then then they do it.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Right, unless the only thing that can mess up your
formula is emotion.
Yes, when someone's emotionsget involved, all that logic is
out the window right, they'reeither definitely gonna do it no
matter what, or they'redefinitely not gonna do it no
matter what.
Based on motion.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
For a point conversion.
Yes, like at a fixed point intime.
Absolutely, emotion will, andthat's why and now we're coming
full circle.
So hopefully people after I sayis people will understand why
I'm so anti billboard, so antinewspaper.
Right, oh, me too.
How then, without, without thebenefit of narrative, of

(41:14):
storytelling, how then are yougoing to convince people to
overcome their, their mentalapprobation to Freemasonry?
So they've heard, like almosteverybody, and can we talk about
it?
Is it okay?
Almost everybody that I'vetalked to about Freemasonry has
said a bunch of old white dudeswho are racist and, you know,

(41:36):
don't have any sensibility aboutthe world.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, I get that 9 times out of 10.
That's what I get.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, or the ironically, two out of our three
past masters in our lodge arepeople of color.
Good for you, you know,definitely not racist.
I mean, okay, there are someplaces right where in the south?
Yeah, but I see that as being achallenge that Mostly the craft
has overcome or is certainlyworking towards reconciliation.

(42:05):
And then, you know, that's sortof like the square old white
guy Visage, right, and it'spowerful to people Not obviously
I'm an old white guy, so likefine.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
I know I do but?

Speaker 2 (42:19):
but it's powerful to people, it's a powerful
approbation, and so the only wayyou can overcome that is with
messaging, is with narrative.
Yeah, right, so the same thingwhen we wanted to get women
involved in the NFL, that spansthe gridiron was not enough for
them.
Like you know, at the time whenthis started to be a

(42:42):
Conscionable strategy on thepart of the NFL, women were
watching morey povich and soapoperas and the NFL says Ricky
Lake, and what if we craft somenarrative around these games?
What if we create some drama?
Right, and you saw the newscycle take that and they spun it
up right and it started to be.
It used to be when I was a kid,you know, cowboys versus Eagles

(43:06):
Saturday at 2 pm, you know, andif you were a football guy, you
would go watch that.
Now it's like Jalen Hurstsquares off with Dak Prescott
for all the marbles, you know,and it's like this, this, this
infotainment narrative.
Yeah, why?
Because people had hardApprobation to adopting the NFL
as a product, people who are notfootball people and they needed

(43:28):
a way to engage them.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
That's a perfect metaphor for what we're trying
to do here, like it's really theonly sport that has Experienced
so much success, and it isprobably due to the market.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, to the point that Taylor Swift's going to
chief games.
I just saw an analysis thatshe's generated.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
She's dating a player right.
Is that Travis?

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Kelsey.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, okay, see, I'm not a sports guy and I'm not a
Taylor Swift guy, so I'm kind ofwell reading headlines.
I'm not really reading thisstory.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
The chiefs are playing that smartly, and so is
the NFL.
People are pissed that they cutto her face every 30 seconds.
But I just saw an analysis.
I just saw an analysis I thinkit was by Forrester or somebody
like that that she's created theequivalent of 350 million
dollars in intrinsic value forthe franchise ending NFL In the

(44:17):
last eight weeks but somehowthis has become political right.
I don't know, I don't, I don'tmiss.
Like politics on that level isnot my thing, yeah there's some.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
It's political somehow.
I've seen that like the rightis trying to do something.
I, like I said I don't know thestory, I've only seen the
headlines.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I couldn't.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Don't get me started on the right, let's just keep it
moving well, I Don't mindtalking about anything, just so
you know this is about marketing, so I'll try to bring it back.
I want to give, I want to letpeople have a few really simple
things you can do that can helpyou lodge From a marketing
standpoint, like I don't so goodas you said it's probably.

(44:58):
Don't spend your money on dumbthings.
Don't get a venture, abillboard or an ad at your local
movie theater.
Like, don't do that.
You, if you're gonna spendmoney, send it very, very wisely
, because you, unless it's yourmoney, you have a fiduciary
responsibility to make sure thatit's gonna make an impact.

(45:20):
We're gonna spend money right?

Speaker 2 (45:23):
So I can give you like a brief checklist like
where to spend money and whereto not, when it comes to
marketing, if you're talkingabout the craft Right, let's do
it?
bullet item number one on thechecklist Are people able to
engage in the format that you'respending money on, and what do
you mean by engagement?
So here's what I'm talkingabout.
Like we, the craft in Floridaspends, as far as I understand,

(45:46):
a great deal of money onbillboards, for instance, or we
have in the past.
If I'm in my car driving pastthat billboard is 60 miles an
hour, what do you expect me todo?
Right, what is it that I'msupposed to do?
Can I type that URL into mybrowser while I'm driving?
Not, unless I want to get intoour rec.
Like is there a QR code I canscan on it?

(46:08):
Nope, am I gonna call a phonenumber?
No more over.
I just left work and I've gotthe day's business on my mind
and I'm stressed and I'm notpaying attention.
It's a bad modality.
People can't engage with it,right?

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah.
So no engagement means You'reexpecting someone to be able to
take an action based on whateveryou did.
That can lead to the outcomeyou want.
Now, right, the billboardexample you gave.
I Want to go back to thefranchise model.
That is an acceptable form ofadvertisement for the grandmach.

(46:43):
They should be spending money onchanging the public perception
of Freemasonry, and a billboardcan do that.
It can.
Yes, someone sees it every day.
Maybe they start to think offremasons yeah, I got I know
there's a lot because I have abillboard like they don't fear
it as much because it got intotheir consciousness.
Now, that's not the kind ofadvertising a lot should be

(47:04):
doing.
We have to be thinkingtransactional.
This is the franchise model.
They should be spending themoney in the way that's gonna
help us get more conversionswhen we spend money.
Right make sense right.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yeah, branding the concept of branding is based on.
There's a threshold ofpreeminence that you have to be
beyond before it makes sense.
Right, like Coca-Cola Spends agreat deal of money on top of
mind advertising, right.
So when you're thirsty, thefirst thought that comes to your
mind is Coca-Cola.
The the neophyte Marketingneophyte the person who doesn't

(47:38):
understand marketing thinks thatthat's what all marketing
should do.
That's absolutely not what weneed to do at the large level we
got.
We got to put a decision infront of people that they can
make in real time In a formatthat it's not so egregious for
them to do it right.
Right.
So like this is why I lovesocial media because you're on

(47:59):
social media goofing off anyway,yeah, so like the mental
barriers that I have to jumpthrough to gain your attention
and hold it are way less, butthen almost any other format
because you're on there.
If I say something interestingand compelling, you will stop
what you're doing and engagewith it.
Yeah that that Situationdoesn't exist in almost any

(48:20):
other format.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
No, and the cost is actually very affordable
compared to more traditional,larger scale marketing platforms
.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
You know like it's super targeted.
Think about waste for a minute.
Let's just go back to thebillboard example.
I agree with you.
I think the grand launch shoulddo that, but let's assume for a
minute.
Or let's talk about paidplacement in a newspaper At the
lodge level.
Sounds like something we woulddo, right.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
No.
That you know that it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
It doesn't meet those requirements like it's, it's,
it just doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
But you know we Hopefully you, because I feel
like I'm I'm older than you,I've been used up and abused
more than you.
You still got the fire.
There's some miles left in thisguy right here.
So, yeah, I'm looking at youand other people like you can
get us on a more comprehensiverelationship in marketing with
the Grand Lodge of Florida, andthe law does individual units or

(49:20):
franchises.
You can, first of all, got towake them up that their job is
to sell the product.
It's what we're here to do.
Sorry, hate to tell you, andthat's not those sole reason
we're here, but we have acharter for that purpose.
And if you're an officer of thelodge, you have a responsibility
to grow your watch deal, andthe Grand Lodge needs to supply

(49:42):
us with the tools to do that.
And they are.
They're starting to, at leastthey're trying.
Yeah, we're making progress andthey can spend money too.
And Like billboards isn't badfor them to do.
They can do display advertising, just buckshot free masonry
everywhere, so people are seeingit all over the place and then
when we spend our money it'seasier for us to catch the fish

(50:03):
person.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
But but here's the thing Like the again, the top of
mind advertising, even at theGrand Lodge level, assumes that
there's a favorable andsufficiently valued opinion of
free masonry for people to thentake action on that.
If the situation in reality isthat people do not have a

(50:25):
sufficiently favorable opinionand they don't, I don't then we
have to find Narrative formats.
Yes, we must.
This is why the, thereimbursement program, is so
brilliant, because it's videoadvertising and it's literally
Answering the questions what areyou guys doing?
Why?
What benefit does it have inthe community?
What benefit does it have tothe individual man?
And a tight, succinct minute,30 second format when people can

(50:49):
then understand that, yeah,this is intrinsically,
inherently valuable, yeah, theman, and to the community and
they, that is hugely important.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
They can visualize themselves in the story.
Right, that's the reallyimportant thing.
Like I really want to havefriends like that, that I can
high-five at the pool table, I'msmoking a cigar, drinking a
whiskey.
That isn't a fantasy, that's.
That's really what we'reselling in the fraternity.
It's real and we do it all thetime.

(51:17):
Does anyone take a picture andpost it on the lodge page?

Speaker 2 (51:21):
They should well, so let's get back to the things you
can do, because you're you're,you're on the hunt now and we're
getting close to yeah, unlikethe last time, we've spent an
hour basically already, so thisis going pretty quickly.
But let's get back to what youcan do and I'll throw out some
ideas Go get work.
I actually funny.
I created a course, an onlinecourse, that literally lists out

(51:44):
these things.
Here's what you can do to helpthe craft.
If you want to help the craftbut you're not a tech, something
they can find online somewhere.
Well, yes, but I sent it to theGrand Lodge and they were like
yo, we're gonna watch it andwe'll get back to you and me.
Being me, I have analytics andI know that nobody's watching,
so I'm sorry, man Don't losehope.

(52:07):
I'm not, I'm not, I'm just gonnakeep.
I'm gonna keep knocking on thedoor.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Yeah.
The thing is.
I told you this and it's verytrue in the fraternity, everyone
wants to be part of the winningteam.
Nobody wants to do any work.
Yeah you're presenting requiresthem to learn stuff and they're
not about that.
Okay, that's a lot of work, butwhen you come with results or
somebody else comes with yourresults, that can't avoid it.

(52:32):
They have to listen, right?
We've been doing the GrandLodge marketing reimbursement
program for three years inFlorida.
You, there's no way you can geta Grand Lodge person that can
explain it to you, right?
They don't know how it works.
They don't understand it.
All they know is it it can workand it doesn't.
We got to do it, you know, andit only happened because they

(52:54):
were getting reports fromdifferent DDGMs throughout the
state that heard stuff.
Yeah, that's how I got theirattention.
I had to do it grassroots, fromresults.
Nobody listened to me.
I had a PowerPoint deck I wassending to High up people and,
like you, I don't.
I don't know that they ever gotlooked at by anybody.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Well, I know, because I I built analytics into my
course that I created, so I knowexactly who Washington, who
hasn't, and so I already know.
But it's okay, I am at, youknow, it's just it's early, get
back to your list.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
I alright, here's what you can.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
If you want to help the craft, here's what you can
do Go to the local lodges inyour let's just say, in your
district.
Follow all their Facebook pages.
That will help.
Okay, when they create contentlike, I'm gonna explain how
Facebook works in a very short,without using any massively big
words.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
I'm not gonna use the a word.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
We're not gonna do it .
All right, facebook, not justFacebook.
All marketers make money onattention.
Yeah, the tension is thecurrency that we use to do what
we do.
Attention is super valuable Ifyou think about why.
Does LeBron James make themoney that he makes some people
go?
I don't understand why this manmakes this money to play a game

(54:11):
.
If you think he's making themoney to play a game, you are a
fool.
He's making the money becausehe's a super athlete who people
cannot look away from.
He's making the money becausehe's a locus of attention.
You see, attention is the wholegame, because attention can be
monetized.
Ultimately, right, we turnattention into money.
That's what we do.

(54:32):
We're good at that.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
So Facebook you platforms.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah.
So if Facebook wants to makemoney, what do they need?
They need attention.
Attention.
On Facebook looks like peoplescrolling down the timeline,
right?
You understand?
Every every fifth or sixth postyou see on Facebook is an ad,
right?
If nobody's scrolling there's,there's nowhere to put an ad.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Tell the average layperson how they can tell it's
an ad, because they probablydon't even know they're looking
at them.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Well, it says advertisement on the top corner
for one thing sponsored rightthere.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
But people, you know, psychologically they they kind
of doing it out.
They don't even see thesponsored anymore.
They just don't know that it'san ad.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Right so, but to any extent, this is why Facebook
cared so much about you.
When you get their quarterlyreports, I'd advise you, if you
don't understand Facebook, tobuy one share of Facebook stock
so you get access to all the allthe information that comes out
quarterly reporting, filingswith the IRS, etc.
Etc.
They focus really heavily on onviewership, like amount of time

(55:38):
that people spend on theplatform, why, if I'm scrolling,
I'm creating ad inventory.
If I'm not scrolling, no adinventory.
They make their moneyexclusively almost on
advertising, and so if you wantto raise the tide for your lodge
, what you need to do is youneed to convince Facebook that
the content that your lodge isputting out is valuable and

(55:59):
interesting, and If they assumethat the content is valuable and
interesting, they willsyndicate it to the.
Well, I did it again.
They will push it out toeveryone, because more
engagement equals more money.
You see, it's simple.
So what do I do, jonathan, if Iwant to help my lodge become
more visible in the community?

(56:20):
You like and follow theFacebook page, everything that
they post.
You do three things likecomment, share, yep, right, so
you like it.
You hit the little thumbs upbutton a lot of you guys are
great at that.
I thank you for your effort.
I really do.
But if you like a post and Donot do anything further, you

(56:41):
never comment, you never share.
Actually, what you're tellingFacebook is that this is
interesting but irrelevant.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Because likes are a throwaway metric to Facebook.
What they benchmark on veryheavily are comments and shares,
because it requires you to dosomething.
There go.
It's a great proxy for howinteresting and motivating and
engaging is this content.
So if you're just that guywho's who's either lurking and
by lurking I mean you scroll allday, you laugh Very funny,

(57:12):
brother, but you never hit thelike button start doing that.
And if you're got, if you'rethe guy that only hits the like
button Like taking 30 seconds tomake a meaningful comment and
you can't just be like good job,yeah, the algorithm knows what
you're doing.
Okay, it's a very smart.
You have to be like I reallyenjoyed XYZ about.
Your post takes two minutes todo.

(57:32):
If you will do that, you willfind that your lodge Achieves
what we call organic syndication, which means that Facebook is
pushing it out there becauseit's interesting and engaging
and people are gonna see thatand engage with it.
They're gonna stay on theplatform longer.
They're gonna scroll longer.
Facebook's gonna make moremoney.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
You're.
You're essentially making yourlodge an authority.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Yes, and you're lending your consumer authority
to your lodge by liking,commenting, sharing.
That's all you got to do.
Just do that.
Let's start there.
You're like engage.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah, and you know there's a lot of Facebook groups
out there, Guys, where you canget a lot of really good
information.
Articles are getting publishedall the time on Facebook groups.
People are.
You know there's a.
I interviewed a guy that has aFacebook page called past
master's thoughts.
He just whenever he's sittingoutside having a drink and smoke

(58:27):
in a cigar, he writes down somethoughts and that's his field.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
It's not a huge in-depth research article, it's
a.
It's like a little tidbit thatevery day you can, like you know
, start a conversation around,and so there's tons of
interesting stuff out there.
And you know it's that Facebookhas a little search bar in the
upper left-hand corner.
You can search keywords therelike like Facebook Florida or

(58:54):
Freemasonry Florida, for example, and you'll see all kinds of
pages that exist that cater toyou, a mason in Florida, and I
like the page.
You're gonna see the content.
Like the content, comment on it, share it with your lodge.
Now, you're not a person gettingmore information right, like,
yeah, you know creator doesEcosystem here?

Speaker 2 (59:13):
just got to engage.
Find things you're interestedin.
There's a niche, like foreverything you know, but
definitely the thing for the,for the particular lodge, that
will raise the tide more thananything.
Just engage with what you know.
If you've got a guy like, I'llalmost stop posting All my large
Facebook page because no, it'scrickets, you know I mean.

(59:37):
So the return on effort for meis like really low and if people
just like common and share, wewould become preeminent in this
community very, very quick.
Yeah you know, and they areseeing it.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
You know they're seeing it, we're just not
they're just not doing theaction right.
You know there's.
The other thing is like peopleto tell the story.
You have to tell the story, yougot to do that.
So if you're in lodge doingcatechism, instruction,
instruction is just you andthree guys.
What a waste of opportunity tonot take a picture and post that

(01:00:12):
and tag those guys in it.
If you can Look at how to tagsomebody in a post, because then
it shows up in their feet andall their friends and family see
it.
A Lot of people just saw thatyour picture, one picture, and
then if you tag three people,that's you know Large, even
larger sets of people that areseeing it's viral marketing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
There's a core of guys who are really good at this
.
Almost all of them are underthe age of 45.
Yeah, which is why I createdthe training product, because I
wanted to help brothers who areinterested in knowing what to do
, know how to do it.
You know what I mean, but we'llget there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
We should build a massive resource page.
It's like how to like a wikiwith video tutorials on
everything like a messonic videowiki Time to start me.
Get all these results of videosto answer your questions.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
I'm into that.
Actually that's a cool idea,like a knowledge management sort
of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it gets aged out, so you got to
constantly be updating, butit's worth that, for I think if
we can help these guys.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
That alone would would probably garner a
significant amount of 10.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Wikis are great for SEO and you know brand building
and all those things so, gettingback to the marketing, what you
said is great for the everydayaverage.
Mason, you don't have to be alodge officer to do that.
You don't even have to be goingto lodge to do it.
You can do it from the bathroomtoilet, which hopefully you

(01:01:42):
have some time there.
You might as well be in there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
That's all it is.
You just got to get supereffective with your downtime,
right yeah, but if you're alarge officer, I think you need
to elevate your consciousness astep and start thinking about
creating these content.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
The thing is you are creating the content, you're
just not capturing it andsharing it.
Those officer meetings, whenyou have a minute and if you're
a loner like me, I make thoseminutes where I can be alone
doing my own thing.
I look up and I see everybodyhaving a great time.
Boom, snap a photo.
That's real.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
That's super important.
We always want to talk aboutbenefits and cost analysis and
value differential between valueand cost.
People, honest to God, want tohave fun.
Anytime you're doing somethingfun and you don't have a million
pictures, you miss anopportunity.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
It's not staged.
Those candid photos speakvolumes to people that aren't
masons.
Yeah.
To see a group of guys having agood time on a Tuesday
afternoon yeah.
No alcohol or strippers in thepicture, like what.
Even the wife's are going to beokay with this when they see
what's going on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
Right, you're going to eat so much green beans that
you're going to lose 20 pounds,like the wife's going to be
happy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
No, you're not.
You're going to have some jellyand mashed potatoes.
Yeah, there's no healthy foodin those.
I think I've ever had a healthymeal at a lodge I visited ever.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
I just cooked up a pot of beef stew over here.
It's getting ready to go downas soon as we're done recording
this.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
But would you serve it in the lodge?

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Oh well, yeah, but I don't know if it scales, because
my beef stew is not likepeasant food, it's like so I
start with some olive oil and Isaute some onions in there, yeah
, then I take my beef tips andcoat them in flour and drop them
in potatoes and make almostlike a base for a goulash or

(01:03:39):
something like that.
Then in goes the red wine andwe do a red wine reduction.
A roux Is that what it's called.
It's a roux.
Yeah, I wasn't going to use theword because I didn't think
anybody knew what I was talkingabout.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
I love the code man.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
It's a roux.
So yeah, I start with a potatoonion roux and then I add my
beef tips which are coated inflour, do a red wine reduction
on that and then go all theother vegetables and everything
and seasonings and then it'slegit like primo.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
I would do it in the lodge but, I want this beef stew
now, damn it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Yeah, it's not going to be any left, I promise.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Well, you'll have to invite me over and make it for
me one night.
I'll definitely.
Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
If you're, you got to come through.
I know you still go down toSarasota.
Yes, you got to come throughJacksonville to get there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
You're only a you're like three hour drive from me.
Maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Yeah, we need to make this happen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Well, we got to get a private plane first of all.
Then it becomes a 20 minutetrip Easy.
I'm working on it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Let me continue to scale my business over here.
I may be able to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
So here's one more thing.
We cannot leave without talkingabout the fact that mason
lodges should have websites.
Okay, this is a problem, though, because most lodges don't have
anyone that can maintain awebsite or build a website, so
what I'd like to see in thefuture and you can work on this

(01:05:08):
is the Grand Lodge has its ownwebsite, and I believe they
should set up little micro sitesunder that Grand Lodge website
for each lodge, and they shouldmaintain.
I put it there already updatingthe officers every year.
Why do I have to update theofficers to?

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
You want to get wild and crazy with a couple of
modifications.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
It looked different than the one down the street,
completely different.
It's not a consistent brand, so100%.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
If you want to get wild and crazy, we have this
whole database that everybody'sin.
If you took a few small steps,like uploading headshots for
each individual, you could pushall that information out.
You wouldn't even have tomaintain it.
Like you change it in thedatabase, it changes on the
website.
I'm not going to explain howthat works because people's
heads will melt down, but I'mgoing to be in.

(01:05:57):
Well, I just wrote a book ononline training in pedagogy, so
I think that the crap wants togo in the direction of more of
an on-demand MLT, and LinwoodThomas is going to be the state
guy.
So but the database that we haveis super good, but we're not
using it at all, so I'm hopingwe can make some progress on

(01:06:18):
that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Yeah, I mean they have all the data to make it
easy for the lodges and not haveto think about it or worry
about it, and have all thecontent there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
You guys don't like WordPress or Jumla or what is
this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
This is a WordPress website for Sarasota Lodge.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
And it's easy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
It's exactly what you're talking about.
You got pictures.
You got where you're from.
You can email the person in thedescription of what the heck
they do.
Yeah, every lodge should havesomething like that.
I agree.
What is Freemasonry and alittle bit of history.
Everyone loves to tell aboutthe presidents or the founding
fathers that were Masons.
Put it on the website, becausethe website's not for Masons.

(01:06:57):
The websites for those peoplewho are just doing research
about Masonry and they're justhaving a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
So you're getting into SEO.
Now You're going to cause thecrap to have a meltdown.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
I mean, this is important, seo is marketing,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
SEO stands for search engine optimization, if you
didn't know.
So when you have a website andyou begin to put lots of content
on the website, like for me, Iwould want to make a post about
every event that we do,everything, all of the Masonic
leadership training stuff thatyou're doing, masonic education
in the lodge If it's non-tiled,I'd be making posts about that

(01:07:33):
stuff, because when the websitestarts to have a critical mass
of information about a giventopic, google assumes that it
has authority and knowledgeabout that topic and it starts
diverting people to your sitewho are looking for specific
things.
So if you're curious aboutFreemasonry, and I have a

(01:07:55):
website that talks aboutFreemasonry in great depth, the
chances of me showing up as aresult of a search about
Freemasonry are good.
Well, they're better.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
They're better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
And over time, as you accumulate those things, you
become more and more of anauthority.
And what happens in the longrun?
If you do this well for a longperiod of time, people just
start showing up on your doorLike, yeah, I saw your website
and I read all about this andthat and the other thing and I'm
interested, and obviouslythat's much easier than going
out and finding people, and sowe call that organic marketing

(01:08:27):
and that's based on SEO, whichis search engine optimization.
It's complicated, fancy, justdo it.
Don't worry about why, just doit.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Well, I have members of my lodge.
I have a Warshful Master of mylodge and it's a master because
we had a website.
How about?

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
He was looking for Freemasonry.
He found two websites aboutFreemasonry near him and he
called the one that looked themost modern and professional.
We got a Mason because we had awebsite and I'm pretty sure
that happens all the time if youhave an updated website,
because it's not verycompetitive Not a lot of people

(01:09:09):
trying to rank for Freemasonryin Pinellas County, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
You're going to be at the top if you just have a
website.
You don't have to know how todo SEO.
You just got to put it thereand you have to up.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Dude, I think we're making progress.
It's slow progress and at timesit's frustrating, but I think
people are beginning tounderstand that we got to do
something a little differently,and I'm here for it.
It's going to continue to be alittle bit of an uphill battle,
not because of the people thatare listening to this podcast

(01:09:43):
Predominantly they're on boardas tech adopters but to the
people who, to the brothers thatwere still mailing out the
Trestle board.
You know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
I'm still fighting with my own lodge.
We spend $2,500 a year mailingTrestle boards.
Every month, the 350 members.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Bro, get an email address Like what are we doing?
So it's not the people who arelistening to this podcast that
are slowing the progress by anystretch.
No, it's the rest of them, andthat's okay.
I don't want to come off likeI'm down on the craft.
I'm passionate about the craft,which is why I care.
Otherwise I got a million otherthings that could be doing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
We.
I think you're onto something.
You said that we need to kindof get together and form a
mastermind group, and I think weshould.
I think we should get us peoplethat are mason's, that are in
the marketing and we shouldstart a group and we should
start coordinating effortstogether, because that's
probably how we're going to getfaster results than us

(01:10:43):
independently working in silence.
It's easy to silence one guy,yeah in a corner.
It's not so silent 15 guys thatknow what they're talking about
and are getting their acttogether and sharing resources
and organizing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
It's always that you know that piece.
I mean, I just feel grateful toyou personally for all that
you've already done in that vein.
You know, because you reallydid the legwork Like it was so
easy for me.
It was still a bit of a fight,but it was way easier for me to
go into the lives and say here'swhat's happening.
These are data.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Did you do?

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
that I did yeah you did.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
How was it?

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
I had a few detractors, yeah, but they were
predominantly speaking from aplace of lack of understanding
and fear.
Fear, it's always that fear,yeah.
And so it was brilliant becauseI was able to say well,
ultimately you know, I hedged itin terms of risk management
Ultimately, what are we risking?
We're risking $600, which Ijust heard the Treasurer's

(01:11:42):
report, we have it right andit's going to get reimbursed.
So what is the risk really?
The risk is that it doesn'twork and I get embarrassed.
How does that personally affectyou?

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
I think the other major fear I've heard over the
years is that you're going tolet in a crazy person.
We're going to get crazy peopleand they're going to.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
I don't know what they think they're going to use.
It's still a process.
We're going to do a backgroundcheck.
We're going to make them hangaround.
So if they're not going to cometo family night and come get
introduced at the Lodge meetingafter the flag ceremony and then
we invite them to kick rocks,all right, if they're not going
to do that kind of stuff,they're not going to get in any.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
So which is exactly what.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
I had to do.
I don't really see the risk.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Yeah, and luckily you went.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
Right, and I always said I wouldn't be a part of any
fraternity that would have me.
But here we are.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
I don't, I don't mix with those kind of people.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Yeah, yeah, same here .
Yeah, we got to stay anoutsider within the fraternity.
That's how I justify it.
You know, not really connected.
I don't really know anything oranybody.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Well it's.
It's a promised land.
I've already been to hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of
times.
You know.
You understand what I'm saying,chris.
It's like I've I've been to thepromised land of like demand
generation, which is ultimatelywhat we're talking about.
How do you create demand forthe crafts?
That's what I do all day, everyday, and I'm good at it.
I make a lot of money to do it,and so when people are like

(01:13:10):
conceptually fighting you, it'slike I know this works, like I
know that I know and I know howto do it.
It's not just that I know howit works or that it will work.
I know exactly what to do andwhat order to arrive there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
Yeah, and repeat that action.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Yeah, Right, you know you're a woodworker, you know,
and you do woodworking for aliving.
And I come in and I'm like Idon't think you really need to
use a bandsaw on that.
You're going to be like, whyare you talking to me and it's
some of that, and like I'mhaving the like.
Honest to God, I don't want tobe that way.
I'm trying not to be likearrogant or hotty about it.
You know what I mean, you'returning in masonry.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
You were meant to be tested, man, this is this help
you circumscribe your passions.
Go on.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
It's a great way to put it.
Yeah, I'm a mentor.
I always shout them out.

Speaker 1 (01:13:58):
with Thomas, my mentor, you know I met him for
the first time when I met youand my impression of him and I
think I'm pretty good at firstimpressions when you're an
introvert you're a peoplewatcher.
I watch people way more thanmost people and I found it to be
a really authentic, genuineperson and that's right away.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Yeah, just an amazing human being, like someone for
whom I have a deep amount ofrespect.
He won mason of the year lastweek in our district yeah, in
district eight, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Worseful Linwood Thomas.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
No, just worseful.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Yeah, you're not even right.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Worseful, yet I think the man can do whatever he
wants to be honest with you Like, if you're listening to him on
your Florida.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
What district are you in?
I'm in district eight, districteight, linwood.
Thomas needs the title of rightWorseful.
He's got some light to spreadin that district.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
Come on, he's going to be the head of masonic
leadership training in the statethis year, and so he's going to
have a bit of a platform there.
But, honest to God, like he'salready, like it doesn't even
start until, I think, june orMay or something like that, and
he's already got it organized.
Like he's got all theinformation, he's already

(01:15:13):
identified opportunities forimprovement, he's got a plan,
he's got a process for how he'sgoing to do it.
He's leveraging me on the techaspects of it, which is smart.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
This is what he's a killer.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
He's a killer Like he's completely capable.
He's one of those people thatif you give him more, he will do
more with it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Good leaders put their aces in their places.
Good leaders, let people flyright.
Your tech guy knows that heneeds to get you into that role
because you're making him hisjob so much easier, and a lot of
people just plug in theirfriends into these roles.
That's like a reward system.
Like I got it, I got to give mybuddies their jobs.

(01:15:56):
No, freemasonry is about whobest can work.
Put the right people in theright jobs and watch We'll fly,
man.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
Yeah, and I'm waiting for it.
I haven't heard any negativestuff.
Like to get his own job.
Like I'm the only person on theMLT list on the whole roster.
That isn't worse for right.
Worse for, you know, the onlyguy Now.
Which is not to say I'munqualified, right.
Like I was a master traininginstructor in the military.
I just wrote a book aboutonline training and pedagogy.

(01:16:26):
Like I have two graduatedegrees, I can do the job and
will.
I will execute on it.
100.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
So it goes back to I made a post that wasn't 100%
positive in the comments.
Imagine and I didn't write it,I don't know where I got it,
we'll have to look Imagine if wedidn't introduce people by
their titles but by theircharacter, ooh.
Imagine if we didn't say thisis a brother, jonathan, he has

(01:16:54):
no titles.
We said this is Jonathan, whoserved the military for X amount
of years and his lost friendsin combat and, you know,
struggled and overcome with thisand has achieved this level of
expertise in that, like, howmuch better will it be than
saying, uh, he's a worship, oh,worship yes, worship yes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
Like I'm going to tell you right now right, right,
worshipal is as right worshipwill does you, just because you
were that guy at a point in timein history, and in all due
respect to people who have donethings for craft that I have not
done but then you got toperpetuate that title, like I'm
going to call you right worship.
But there comes with that amandate to be a real human being

(01:17:35):
and to help the lodge and thecraft.
Um, worship, right worship.
All these titles.
So like I'm not in a super bighurry to get them, because to me
that means now I got to catchanother gear, I got to find
another level, um, and I'm, I'mgiving to the craft as I am
capable of doing, yeah, um, butI'm still a working man, I'm

(01:17:57):
still in my working prime.
I'm working 60 hours a week ontop of you know what I mean.
Like I think I did 15 degrees,like my first six months.
Like nice you know, just sittingin various chairs because I'm
hungry to learn it and I want toknow about it.
Um, you know, I was.
I was just senior warden and anenter apprentice degree night
before last and that was goodfun because it was a Callahan

(01:18:18):
Lodge.
And I'm going to give anothershout out to my, to my brother,
chase, from Callahan Lodge, whowas the senior deacon, chase who
I stepped.
Uh crap, I can't remember hislast name.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
No, we're just a senior deacon from Callahan
Lodge.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
He's got a glorious mullet.
You'll know him when you seehim A mullet.
Oh yeah, it's Callahan Um, butbut you know he was.
He stepped up to be the worshipmaster for the degree Um and I
was the senior warden, and soeverybody, or at least the
primary positions um, werefilled by young mason's who were

(01:18:52):
who are out here doing it.
You know, um, and it was justreally refreshing to me to to be
a part of that, because the,the uh, the older, more
experienced guys were there andthis was a beautiful environment
.
Mistakes were made, Um, butnobody was cat calling like
domestic from the sidelines.
Nobody was doing that.
Everybody was like if, if theyoung man had a moment where he

(01:19:16):
couldn't recall, everybody wasquiet and just waited on it and
gave him the love and thesupport and, and you know, and
he got through it and he did, hedid the work and I'm super
proud of it.
You know, to me that's the crap.
That's what the crap should be.
It's all about the love,support each other.
You know, lifting up yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
Always lifting up.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
Yep.
Anyway, I don't know how we goton that, but um, I'm shouting
out people from my district now,yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
Well, listen, you and I, we got to start rallying the
troops here.
We got to get a cabal of uhmarketing gurus that are masons
together and we got to startworking together.
Instead of load, I'm going todo it.
Uh, we'll start with a Facebookgroup and let's see where it
goes.
I'm building an app right now.
This is what I'm saying and, uh, you just said you were in X
degrees and X amount of time,but nobody knows that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
Yeah, Nobody knows that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
We need an app where you can, every time you're in a
degree, tally, tally, tally it'son your profile If you can see
what proficiencies you have,what parts you know on what
degrees.
Imagine if you have a degreeand you need a senior deacon
because he dropped out yesterday.
An app where you could be likeI need a senior deacon, and it
gives you a list of names ofguys in the four lodges next to
you.
You can message him in realtime.
Yes, I can make it tomorrow.

(01:20:25):
Boom Done, come on.

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
Yeah, that would be cool tools for real nascent
right.
So almost like an expansion ofAmity, like if you were to build
social on top of Amity orsomething tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
I'm recording with Jerry Jeremy Barnes, the, the.
I don't have any and I've beentalking to him.
I've been talking to him aboutthis for four, maybe five years,
but he's going from the top.
He's making connections withgrand jurisdictions, he's
working on recognition right.
This is where he and I'mtalking about the bottom, I'm
talking about the brothers.
Every day, masons need tools ineveryday life.

(01:20:59):
So I think we can, we canreally meet in the middle.
There he can, he can cover thetop and we can come up from the
bottom and if we can combinesomehow at some point, it's
going to be a good day formasons.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
I really have a vision for that platform, which
is ironic because it's not minein any way.
He doesn't have, jeremy, youhave no, you need not listen or
care about my vision, I will notbe offended but a tiled network
on top of Amity where you canhave posts and discussions.
You know about tiled materialand esoteric material at depth,

(01:21:38):
knowing that everybody on theplatform is a pre-mation, is a
master mason in what that woulddo for the general level of
knowledge and understanding ofthe craft.
Oh, it would be tremendous,wouldn't it?
I mean, I would, dad, I woulddo daily, I would write every
day, because I'm over herewriting articles and stuff and
posting them is like crickets,Nobody cares and I can't really

(01:21:58):
write about the good stuffbecause it's tiled, tiled
information.
Right, I mean yeah, you got aprivate.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
Facebook group.
You just you don't know who'scontrolling it, or vetting, or
right.
You still might get intotrouble, even in private
Facebook group.
I never shared anything, evenin the private Facebook groups
that I think are, if you justbecause.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
I'm.
I will 100% get into trouble.
I'm magnetic.
I don't know why, but peoplepay attention to me, Like, so I
got to.
I got to really really focus onwhat I say and do.
Yeah, Um, you know I have thatburden, so it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
Well, that's your energy man.
You know, it's definitely.
People are attracted topositive energy, and you?

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
positive vibes.
I try, I just intentional.
It's intentional Like I cameout of the wars like deeply
cynical and wounded, you know,and so it's something I've spent
a lot of time and energy on,like sort of leveling up the way
that I project and it hasbusiness implications, like I
was struggling in business atfirst because of this negative,

(01:22:59):
cynical energy, you know.
So I got to I have to focus onprojecting and horror of you
know, benevolence, but you're asmart guy too, like uh.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
I was at um Tom McCrack installation with uh
Jonathan and uh, like I said,I'm a people watcher so I kind
of vampire it into a cornerthere and I saw you observing
before you engaged.
You spent some time serving theroom watching the situation.
I watched you observing beforeyou engaged and you started
finding some people to talk toyour pick your moments and who

(01:23:33):
you were going to engage with.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
So I got to see who's who first right I can see that
it's an intentional effort fromyou.
Yeah.
To to that way it's survivalright.
Like I said, I am an introvertso I have I have a limited gas
tank for that sort of thing, soyou got to make account who
we're going to engage with todayand why, and try to have
strategy, like I don't want itto seem like fake, because I

(01:23:54):
think most of those engagementsare organic and and, um, you
know, are real.
They're real engagements, but Icertainly don't, you know, if I
know who's who, I'm not goingto wasting time on fools.

Speaker 1 (01:24:06):

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
Right, so it is what it is.
I don't know if that's cold ornot.
Um, certainly I respect andappreciate every brother, but
there are some people who arenot my people, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:24:20):
I had a gym class, and that was young, and the gym
teacher said his theory is we'reborn with a specific number of
heartbeats and so his idea isyou exercise to elevate your
heart rate so that it rests.
It's a lot lower, which is whatyou should be at most of the
time, thereby saving yourheartbeats and living a longer
life.
And that's kind of where I'm atwith my time.

(01:24:42):
I only have a small amount oftime and, uh, with a time I have
, I'm not wasting it with emptyconversations that I know are
fake or meaningless or pointless, like I just don't have time
for that anymore because I'mmore aware of my time as I get
closer to the end of it, and soI want to maximize what I do

(01:25:03):
with my time, and that includesnot having dumb conversations
that aren't going to work.
I say that, but I don't knowhow many hours of me are on the
internet right now talking aboutfart jokes and stuff, so I
guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite.
It's a story I tell myself.
Well, I appreciate you being on, jonathan.
This isn't going to be yourlast time, I hope.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
No man, we got.
We got more stuff to discussnext time.
It can't be marketing, though.
Everybody wants to discusssocioeconomics with me.
Um, you know, economics is abeautiful quasi science, but you
know you're making decisionsfor the lives of millions of
people based on economicprinciple, which is not really

(01:25:45):
principle, it's it's allsupposition.
You know, economics usesstatements like on average, all
else equal, right, because it'sa quasi science, right?
And so we're making like we gotto get back to humanism a
little bit, to get to achieveour potential as a nation.
I think it's a.
It's a nation of people.
No, and if you're going to dothat, then you have to ask

(01:26:07):
yourself the question and thisis where it gets tricky If we're
a nation of people, what'sMexico, Exactly?
What's Ukraine?
What's Palestine?
Yeah, they're just people, man,Right?
Um, all these arbitraryseparations that we put between
ourselves, like those, are ourbrothers and sisters.
We are all connected.
If you don't feel that, if youdon't resonate on that level,

(01:26:31):
you know, this is how we don'thave a lot to talk about, you
know you're absolutely right andyou.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
That's why I was sharing the story, because if
you can start your conversationfrom a human standpoint, you can
have that conversation.
But if you just want to come inwith Ukraine is the most
corrupt country in the world anddoesn't deserve aid, we can't
even have the conversation.
Because you're not looking,you're not, we're not talking
about the people of Ukraine Now,you're talking about the, the

(01:26:55):
25 guys that run the country,but and that's not the
conversation we're trying tohave here about these people in
their country Uh, got to startfrom a place of humanity and
love and compassion a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
And unless you want to say that you know, unless you
want all Americans benchmarkedoff of AOC and Nancy Pelosi, in
which case go ahead with thatnarrative, because that's the
reciprocal Right.
Yeah, I have no problem withthat because, again, I'm fairly
liberal, but there are a lot ofconservatives listening to this
going, oh God, no right, butthat's the point.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
It is the point because they like, they liked
you before.
They heard that and now they'relike ah, f this guy.
Now you can't say, f this guy,he's still the nice guy that you
love, he's still a military guythat fought for his country.
He is all those things.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
I know, I know it's an unpopular take that we're not
the greatest country on theearth.
I don't know that there is agreatest country.
It's.
It's a overly simplisticstatement.
Every country is great in someway and every country has
detractors and things that arenot great.
Right, Well, that's myperspective.
Like I, I can't walk past theproblems with the United States.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Like there you go there, you go there, it comes.
You know that's, that's the.
That's the crux of the thing isthat you live here, so you see
all the problems because youcare and you're not going to
bury my head in the sand.
There's a solution and we wantto do something about it.
Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
Right, that's where I'm at.
Um, not, you know, not to saythat that anybody who sacrificed
for this country did so in vain.
I don't believe that.
I believe it's infinitely worthsacrificing for in it and for
what it is.
I think it's the purestexpression of what is possible.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
You're speaking to not just the state of Florida
now.
You're speaking to the wholeworld, I think from the world.
What would you leave them with?

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
I think free masonry can save the world if we let it
Honest to God, like I think.
I think that, um, if, if wecould get Israelis and
Palestinians in a lodge together, we could squash it Right.
And because, inherently, we'regoing to move past all the
religion and all the politicsand we're going to look at each
other as men and we're going tofind a common ground and a way

(01:29:02):
to move forward.
I think free masonry can save awhole world, um, and that's why
I'm so passionate about gettingit in front of people.

Speaker 1 (01:29:12):
That's a good way to send this out.
I love it.
Love is the answer.
Thank you, Jonathan Green.
We'll see you next time on onthe level podcast.
Thank you for listening.
You made it to the end.

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