November 26, 2025 • 50 mins
In this special episode of On the Move, we sit down with Denny Grim, a TMSA member for more than 50 years, to reflect on the history, evolution, and future of transportation sales and marketing through the eyes of someone who has lived it, shaped it, and stayed committed to this community for half a century.
Check out the Transportation Sales and Marketing Association (TMSA) website or engage with us on LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:21):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to On the Move, a show
where we share transportationsales and marketing success
stories.
I am Jennifer Carpis Romain,Executive Director of the
Transportation Marketing andSales Association, which is a
trade nonprofit in the spaceeducating and connecting
marketing and salesprofessionals.
And today on the show, it's avery special episode for me
(00:44):
because we have the Denny Grimmon the show.
He's the executive producer atBusiness to Business
Communications, but a lifer inthe transportation industry.
I was actually thinking I'veknown you for about seven to
eight years now, but thatdoesn't even hit the iceberg of
time that you observed at TMSAin the industry.
(01:05):
So welcome to the show, Denny.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
I'm good.
Thank you so much.
Um, just for having interest inuh a little bit of history about
the organization, uh certainlymy background, but um, and so
it's appreciated that you woulduh look to some of the history
of a really wonderfulorganization.
SPEAKER_03 (01:28):
Absolutely, and that is kind of where I want to
start.
So for people that don't know,um TMSA is a 100-year-old
organization, and you haveactually served TMSA before it
was TMSA, when it was TMCA, andwhen it had a whole bunch of
other names over the course oftime.
But you've been serving TMSA asa member for more than five
(01:49):
decades now, which is just atestament to yourself and your
selflessness to serve theindustry and the organization.
So let's start at the beginning,I guess.
How did you get involved in theindustry and what has kept you
here for 50 years?
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
It started in 1974.
You can look it up on the uminternet.
It it was a uh it was anexciting time for me.
I joined Modern Railroadsmagazine when there was a print
journal called Modern RailroadsMagazine.
It was part of Connor'sPublishing Company, which at the
(02:31):
time was one of the really biguh publishing, business
publishing organizations uhstateside.
Um and uh so Modern Railroadswas my beginning.
It was about learning atransportation industry, it was
also about uh learning the uhdepths of marketing,
(02:55):
particularly back then.
Uh the organization I joined wascalled ARAM, A-R-A-M, the
Association of RailroadAdvertising Managers.
Um, we evolved over time tobecome the Association of
Railroad Advertising andMarketing.
(03:18):
We elevated ourselves uh overtime.
Um, but it has given me alifetime of work.
Um years and years ago, when mylifetime achievement award was
presented, uh, it suggested thatif you have a lifetime of
achievement, you're supposed towork there for a lifetime.
(03:40):
And so I've tried to do that.
Um, it's been a gloriousexperience for me.
Um, but Jen, I would tell you inall uh honesty, it really has
been an opportunity to grow inrelationships with business
professionals, and the ones thatseemed to be so very valuable
(04:06):
were those where a relationshipwas actually built, where you
would spend time withindividuals.
Um I tell the story.
Ken Key is a past president ofARAM, and uh he was uh VP of
sales or VP of corporatecommunications at the Canadian
(04:28):
Pacific Railway.
Well, Ken and Norma, and Lauraand I, we've had a relationship
that never stopped.
Um Laura and and Norma are onthe phone every month um talking
to each other.
And that this was back in the II think it was the 90s when Ken
(04:51):
was president.
Um but uh uh certainly many ofthe people in our business were
customers, and uh so on the onehand, you do business with
customers, and that's good, andbut these things turned into
really human bonding, and wereally and genuinely care about
(05:14):
folks, and you follow them umliterally through a lifetime, I
have anyway, and um I've beenblessed to continue to live, and
so um uh I keep up with as manyof those old relationships as is
possible.
Um, in terms of um your initialquestion, this is a relationship
(05:40):
business.
Um people talk to people,companies don't talk to
companies.
So the individual growth,personal and professional
growth, is such a value, and uhthat's certainly kept us very
connected to the organizationand its evolution.
SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
I would agree.
I mean, I think even my time atTMSA, so I was a member, I think
it was either end of 2017, 2018is when I came in as a member.
And then I took this role in2021.
And if you ask me, the peoplethat I talk to on a regular and
daily basis, like half of them Imet through the association
(06:25):
because they do like and you'vegone through all this stuff,
like we went through COVIDtogether and being on calls, and
like we watch you watch eachother's kids grow up over the
internet, and like like I alwayslaugh, like Monroe, my son, he
calls Holly Loboda Miss Holly,who lives in the computer
because he that's when he seesher is on the computer.
(06:46):
So I'm like, she doesn't, shehas a home, but like that's you
know, and so it's just funny.
You you make these connectionsand these bonds, and you really
do travel through that.
And I think it's such an impactand a legacy.
I know from my experience, andso I can only imagine what it
would be like through all thattime.
Um, you've watched this industryevolve in ways that most people
(07:09):
will then never experiencebecause you've seen all of the
ebbs and all of the flows.
Like so many of us are like,will this market ever stop?
And you're probably like,eventually, yes, it will, and
then it'll happen again.
But um, in terms of sales andmarketing, I'm curious over that
evolution for you, what are someof the biggest changes you've
(07:31):
seen and been surprised by intransportation?
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
Well, the the big thing is um I came into this
industry when it was a regulatedindustry, and so um it was not
what we see today.
I say that.
It's always been about getting aproduct from point A to point B.
Um, but what we've learned overtime is the supply chain uh is
(07:58):
much more than when I started,railroads and railroading, and
it was uh, and it is more thantrucks and trains and boats and
planes.
The technology that's come inand all of those kinds of things
are very real and they are greatfor um moving the marketplace,
(08:22):
the the industry forward.
Um but uh few within our networkuh of our audience today um
understand what it was like backin the day.
Um if you if you will, um overthe previous hundred plus years
(08:47):
we were regulated, andregulation that um pricing was
regulated, operationscontrolled, and labor was
negotiated, and you didn't gooutside of those boundaries.
Uh the uh Interstate CommerceCommission kept you in check,
(09:07):
and so uh the cost of moving aproduct, any given product, uh,
was different um than it istoday.
Today the rates are negotiated,etc., etc.
But back then, uh, if you weremoving chickens, um there was a
rate.
If you were moving deadchickens, there was a different
(09:30):
rate.
And so um uh knowing how to moveand work within the regulated
industry was what people knewback then.
Marketing was marketing wasstrange.
Um uh um in the railroad, thinkabout that, in the railroad
(09:54):
industry pre-deregulation, umrailroad marketers were they're
gonna they're gonna contest mymy thought here, but uh by and
large, they were designers ofposters, great posters.
So when you went through arailroad station, you saw a
(10:18):
poster um that was encouragingyou to ride the rails to the
west.
I mean, passenger transportationadvertising was about selling
tickets and um and and very,very different than um than what
it is today.
Uh passengers never paid forthemselves to use the railroad.
(10:42):
Um freight was what it was thatmade the railroad successful
back then.
And if you think about it, Ijoined in 74, but uh in 24 when
all this started, um trucks, Imean, trucks weren't trucks,
trucks were dray horses thatwere pulling wagons.
(11:05):
Um, and and so um it was anindustry yet to evolve.
The railroads believed that theywere important, they were in the
railroading business, theydidn't even know they were in
the transportation business.
So um marketers had it had achallenge to say the least, but
(11:25):
um it's a very differentbusiness today than it than it
was then.
Um go back to your question.
I um uh in terms of watchingLucian, um we watched uh the
(11:46):
Association of RailroadAdvertising Marketing move from
an industry that had 71 classone railroads when I joined in
74.
Today we have six basicallyrailroads currently in North
America, and soon to be fewer ifthey have their way.
(12:09):
Uh it's all been under the guiseof doing business better for the
shipper.
Well, less competition is aquestion.
Is that better or not?
Um, but when you think you're inthe business of railroading, as
(12:30):
opposed to focused on uh thecustomer, the shipper, um you
may have a different outlook.
All that to say, as ARAM grewinto TMCA, the Transportation
Marketing and CommunicationsAssociation, um, we uh evolved
(12:54):
at least enough to know that wehad to get beyond an association
of six people.
Um you can't run an associationwith six.
Uh I think you would agree withthat.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
And the consequences, and we had
suppliers and the like, but um,but it became a very small
organization over time.
And um uh and so the invitationof all modes was really the
appropriate thing to do, and weopened our arms and invited in
(13:32):
um the other associations, someof which um wanted to join,
tried a couple of times to join.
There used to be a railroadpublic relations association.
Um, in in fact, in the railroadindustry, uh PR was sat right
(13:52):
outside of the president'soffice.
And the reason, of course, wasbecause if something falls off
the track, you you need a publicrelations program real quick.
Real quick, yeah.
And um, and and so um therethere was this evolution.
We we engaged with them a fewyears uh of meet of our
(14:16):
meetings.
Um, and uh so uh that along withthe old ATA Sales and Marketing
Council.
Um we have a number of peoplethat are members today and past
presidents today who haveparticipated in that.
Um and um and so bringing theorganizations together uh was
(14:42):
really beneficial.
I'd love to see a an evengreater amount of multi-modes
join us.
Uh but uh certainly withintermodal, we we play better um
today than than we used to.
And uh uh in in the days ofARAM, we had in the bylaws um a
(15:08):
requirement that said you mustbe a steel wheel organization.
And so so what they were tryingto say politely was truckers
stay out.
Uh we don't we don't like you,we don't care about you.
And what we've learned is thebest customers, don't tell
(15:30):
anybody, but the best customersof the railroad industry are
truckers.
Welcome, UPS.
Um, and so um uh we we do anawful lot of truck train
business today, and it is a umuh a huge network that has grown
(15:52):
markedly.
So um I'll uh I'm I'm rambling,so forgive me for that, but uh
but the fact is is that we'vedone well to grow into TMSA
today, and uh and we've grownwith folks just like yourself.
Um, Brian Everett, who precededyou and the mind share people,
(16:13):
uh, were was an organizationthat I had an opportunity to
work with for many of thoseyears.
Before that, there was a fellowby the name of Len Hall, who had
been at the Santa Fe Railway andum in their marketing
department, and he took over uhfor a period of time the the
files of before him.
(16:35):
Um Joe Joe Joe.
I'll I'll get Joe's last namehere in just a second.
Um Joe Singer.
Joe was the he was the executivedirector, if that's what we
called him, uh back in the olddays.
And um our communication was anewsletter that was mimeographed
(16:56):
and mailed um to the members.
And um, but it but Joe was ourconnection um uh in certainly in
the 70s and 80s, but he wasthere before that, um before I
came in.
Uh he was uh formerly with theChessy system.
And so um, for those of you thatdon't know, the Chessie was a
(17:19):
railroad back in the day, um,and became part of CSX.
At any rate, um uh there werelots of really great people who
gave a lot um during thoseyears, and uh and so um just a
little more history of your uhuh uh uh area of expertise
(17:44):
within the group.
We've had some great leaders.
SPEAKER_03 (17:48):
I um I love hearing about the leaders that come
before, and it sounds like Iknow this is true for myself and
Brian, and it sounds like fromwhat you just said, too, that
like almost every executivedirector, every CEO leader,
whatever came as like a memberand then dedicated themselves
into the role, which to me issuch a special thing for this
(18:13):
group.
Like you have to know the powerof an organization when people
fall in love with it as just amember and then dedicate their
careers to helping it um be asellish and grow it, which I
think is really special.
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
If we had some bumps in the road, um, I think they
were more, I don't know if it'sphilosophical, but we we have
had some um uh associationmanagement.
We had an association managementcompany that did uh was involved
in helping to lead the theorganization, um, particularly
(18:50):
when it was tough to findsomebody that was as dedicated
as you are or Brian and thelike.
Um there were many people wholoved the organization who
worked before it, but didn'thave all the skills that an
association management companymight have.
Um, I know Brian invested inthat, and and um and you do.
(19:14):
It's um so it's important toknow the business of your
business, which is associationmanagement.
Um what a typical associationmanagement company doesn't have
is they don't have the industryknowledge, um, nor necessarily,
(19:37):
in our case, the professionalskills that are that our members
demand.
And um, so it's hard to growmembership when you don't really
know who the players are, um,and it's tough to deliver on the
profession of marketing and orof sales that we have in need
(20:01):
today, and so um I I think thatwe've found the sweet spot in
you and Brian and and as youmentioned, in those who um
really have been uh dedicated tothe industry that you serve.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
I agree, and um, it's fun having you on the
podcast because I actuallydidn't prep you for this
question, so we'll see.
But um many, many times you'vetold me that you were like the
original podcaster because backin the day you would send out
clips of you, like tapes to yourcustomers of you talking about
(20:43):
stuff.
And I would love to hear moreabout that process because to me
that's a huge step into whatmarketing is today.
So many of us have podcasts, andthis is what we listen to, and
this is how we get ourinformation.
And you had that concept earlyon that people liked to listen
instead of reading sometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
It's so fun to tell the story.
Um, and I didn't realize ituntil much later.
Um, but in the day um when I wasat I spent 10 years in the print
business publishing uh focusedon transportation.
Um, and during that time, I'm abit dyslexic.
(21:25):
So um uh it's it was a challengefor me to read all the journals
that were being presented in theindustry and have a coherent
understanding from each of theirperspectives of their angle, if
you will, on transportation orlogistics, um, let alone the
(21:49):
supply chain.
And so um in 1984, I had done, Ileft Connor's Publishing Company
and did uh research withthousands of shippers and
carriers, um uh intermodalspecialists.
(22:12):
Um we we the third party washardly um an ingredient within
our industry at that time.
But um when I sent uh researchto General Motors, they
responded.
They in fact were the firstrespondent that I received, uh,
(22:34):
response that I received uh in amailed-out cassette and
questionnaire about our industryand marketing.
Would you listen to atransportation journal?
Well, we called ittransportation digest.
Um the the initial idea waswe'll go out and read all the
(22:56):
magazines and then, kind of likebooks on tape, we'll read it to
the industry.
Thought that was a wonderfulidea.
We produce 40,000 of thesethings and send it out to
everybody.
Um I thought it was a good idea.
Um uh and and so we did themailing, and um at that time, at
(23:23):
the same time, there was an ARAMmeeting, uh, the annual
conference.
It was in Miami, Florida at theDurral Country Club.
Woo! Uh it was a very specialdeal and place.
I remember it like it wasyesterday.
I guess that was the first one.
That was 74.
I'm sorry.
In 84, we were at Hilton Head,and um, a fellow by the name of
(23:49):
Woody Woodburn was the presidentof the association, ARAM, but he
was also president of anin-house agency at the Santa Fe
Railway.
And so I came and presented thiswonderful idea about 40,000
tapes going to the industry.
And wouldn't that be wonderful?
(24:10):
He said, um uh I I've got I'dlike to talk to you.
Can we when we get back toChicago on Monday, would you
come to my office?
Would I come to your office?
Yes.
So um so I did, and um he wantedto reinvent everything that I
(24:31):
had as a wonderful idea abouttalking to the industry with
45-day old news.
Um, because if you're readingpublications which take
particularly monthlypublications, which take time to
produce, and then you'reproducing that material later.
(24:55):
Well, it as much as I thought itwas a wonderful idea, it
probably wasn't, because Woodyhad a better idea, and that was
um they had their super C list.
Um, and don't ask me why the C,but a customer, I guess, super
customer list.
(25:16):
And so they wanted to send acassette tape that we would
produce with them as thesponsor, and we'd send it to
their list, but it needed to bean exclusive list.
Well, we did have personalcomputers in those days, so I
(25:39):
was able to sort lists uh backthen, but we didn't have an
internet and we didn't have cellphones.
Um, eventually bag phones camein and people rode around in
their car with a uh with them.
Um but um so there were no therewas no competition in the
(26:02):
automobile when people werecommuting to work.
By the way, the average commutewas 21 minutes.
That was then, this is now, it'sway longer than that now because
of congestion.
But um, so we had research thattold us what we could expect.
And um, and so what we did dowas to produce actual interviews
(26:26):
with industry leaders, certainlyin transportation.
I mentioned General Motors, theywere some of the first people on
the on the program.
So Santa Fe wanted to go toJerry Baudry at General Motors,
and because he was amulti-million dollar, he was a
billion-dollar customer.
(26:47):
So, anyway, um the all of thatto say um we were going to
utilize a very specificcustomer-focused interest um to
get to their key clients.
Um, it was interesting.
The program was sent, uh, thefirst program we did was sent
(27:11):
out on December 15th of 84.
And on December 17th of 84, Igot a phone call uh from a
fellow by the name of JackEdwards.
I didn't know Jack Edwards, buthe identified himself as VP of
sales and marketing at SouthernPacific Railroad.
(27:32):
When there was a SouthernPacific Railroad, if you looked
at a map from SouthernCalifornia to Chicago, ran the
Santa Fe and the SouthernPacific.
They paralleled each otherpretty much to Chicago.
Um Jack said, Hey, I'd like todo that program.
(27:53):
I said, How did you even knowabout it?
And uh he said, Well, my brotherworks for the Santa Fe.
We had many uh of the programsgoing internally as well as
externally.
So um Jack said, I'd I'd reallylike to go to General Motors and
(28:13):
uh Jerry Baudry is who I'd puton my list.
I said, Jack, we got a problem.
Can't go to Jerry Baudry.
Um, Jerry is already on thelist.
I didn't tell him who thesponsor was, but um, I only had
one sponsor at that point.
And uh, but I did say JerryBaudary has five direct reports.
(28:36):
I happen to know that because Ihad talked to Jerry, et cetera,
et cetera.
And he said, I want to go to hisfive direct reports, because
they were obviously the peoplethat would get the job later
when Jerry retired.
All of that to say we werecreating as we went this
(28:59):
programming concept.
One of the things I you learnedquickly is as good as the
content would be abouttransportation, it wasn't about
leadership, it wasn't aboutentrepreneurship, or a program
that I did for uh SouthernPacific was called
Intrepreneuring.
There's a book uh GiffordPinchot wrote way back when
(29:22):
about having entrepreneursinside your company.
So, anyway, we were doing thesekinds of interviews with authors
and speakers and leaders, um,certainly in our industry and
then beyond our industry.
And that's what was piquing thelistenership.
It wasn't about talkingnecessarily just about
(29:46):
transportation and eventuallytrucks before the trains and the
boats and the planes.
We tried that and cover it well.
Um, the the business journalswere doing a great job of that,
of course.
What we had were personalities.
And so people would want tolisten to the people that they
(30:06):
were trying to sell to.
And so we did have lots ofsubscriptions that went out to
the carriers within theindustry.
Building business-to-businesscommunications was really a
product that the customerscreated.
(30:29):
And so over time, certainly manyof the railroads and the
trucking companies, many of whomaren't anymore.
I mean, we don't have railroads,we don't have 70 of them
anymore.
And the trucking companies, ifyou look at the top 50 trucking
companies in the 70s, therearen't 50 of them there anymore.
(30:52):
So the but mergers andacquisitions and all of that
kind of thing came together.
One of the companies that wantedto speak to leaders in the
supply chain was a companycalled AT Kearney, a consulting
company.
They were a client of ours for20 years, but they came to me
(31:14):
and said, Denny, transportationdigest is not the title that we
need to reach CEOs of bigcorporations.
And they created, again for us,a title called Sound Business.
We did programming titled SoundBusiness.
(31:37):
We had another one titled SoundSelling for the Field Sales
Forces of My Clients.
But the concept was there.
It wasn't called a podcast, butit was a series of three and
five-minute conversations withindustry leaders, business
(31:58):
leaders, who had a great messagethat was condensed.
And then we would, on the salesside, we'd get people like uh
Brian Tracy and Tony Alessandra,Dennis Whaitley, Patricia Fripp,
Don Hudson, Jim Cathcart, allkinds of sales types, many of
(32:19):
whom became, would you believeit, speakers at TMCA back then.
And so we had a desire on thepart of people who wanted to
reach the industry to use ourmedium to reach out to the
(32:42):
marketplace.
And so that was very good forus.
And it it was content that wasso valuable for the audience,
but certainly for me.
(33:04):
Today, uh Joe Pelesi, our friendin marketing, would uh suggest
it was the item that wasimportant.
Uh content is king, he wouldtell us.
And so um, as marketers, we weregrowing, um, the industry was
growing, and without question,TMCA then was growing as well.
(33:28):
And um, so being able to helpput some of those conferences
together was a real boon for me.
Um, it it had it played wellinto what I was doing, and it
was free for TMSA or TMCA then.
Um so we we've really enjoyedthat as the medium changed.
(33:55):
We went from audio cassettes toCDs, and so we moved up in the
world.
Um, today, of course, uhcommunicating uh over the
internet works.
Look what you're doing now.
So uh it's funny for me becauseI'm sitting on the opposite end
of the chair that I normally sitin.
(34:18):
Usually I get to do theinterview.
SPEAKER_03 (34:20):
Yes, and I love that story just because I think it
shows how things transitionthrough time.
And like you said, like itstarted with the cassette tapes
and it went to CDs.
Now we're we're digital, and nowthis type of audio platform is
so big, and it just wasn'tsomething that people saw all
the time.
So I love it.
Um, so over the course of thisinterview, you've talked about a
(34:44):
lot of different um people fromthe past, a lot of different um
moments of TMSA.
But I just want to ask ifthere's one moment, person,
story that we haven't discussedyet that really stands out to
you as incredibly meaningful ormemorable?
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
Um the the story that I had thought about was the
Woody Woodburn story, but butbut in fact.
My affiliation with this group,it's all about people.
(35:21):
Um we've we've had some amazingthings go on in business.
Um as a very small enterprise.
I mean, we had a half a dozenfolks on uh well uh on payroll,
and then uh almost every programhad about 12 to 15 people on one
(35:45):
edition.
Um and uh in the beginning wewere twice monthly, we
eventually became a monthlyjournal.
Um but in terms of the who, um,it's the relationships and
friendships that have beenbuilt.
Um I feel like, I hope I could,but I feel like if I needed to
(36:11):
in the middle of the night, umI've got a half a dozen people
that I could pick up the phoneand call if I had an issue, a
problem, or a concern, and uh uhpersonal or business, and they
would help me manage through itin a heartbeat.
Um and the style doesn't go awayfor me.
(36:33):
In 1987, uh I joined the TrafficClub of Chicago.
Um I met the president and uh uhuh walking across a bridge at my
office down in the city, whosaid to me, You should belong to
the traffic club.
(36:54):
And oh, by the way, um, based onwhat you do, because the
president that year of thetraffic club was at Santa Fe, so
he knew very well what I did.
Um, he said, Um, I think you youyou'd be good if you were the
education chairman.
Well, I said, okay.
(37:18):
I I thought maybe it'd be goodfor me.
I didn't know any at the trafficclub, uh, except him.
And um turned out I've been theeducation committee chairman
ever since.
Uh it's it's like it didn't goaway.
Um everybody gets in the chairsand wants to be president of the
association.
I'm busy doing what I do.
SPEAKER_03 (37:39):
I'm good here, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
No, it's all good.
Um, in fact, last week um I wasat the TM, uh the Traffic Club's
uh forum and um introducing someguests that we've had as
customers and uh uh speakers tothe industry.
(38:03):
Um and so I I don't see stoppingwhat I'm doing.
When you love what you do, whywould you stop?
Uh I know I'm old and they sayuh you you've you've you've
spent your time.
But they gave me an emeritustitle to try to get rid of me,
but I'm not leaving.
SPEAKER_03 (38:20):
That's I remember when we celebrated our 100 year
anniversary last year, they werelike at TMSA, you know, are we
gonna give Denny a lifetimeachievement award?
I'm like, he got one in thenine.
Like I don't so I that's why Iwas like, but let's get him a
gigantic ribbon and make himwear it that says 50 so that
everyone knew that you werecelebrating 50 years, because I
(38:42):
was like, we still need torecognize what I was like, he
already got it in state.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Like there's nothing else we can give him on that
like award situation, but um,but that was cool, and um I have
been I have gifted all I couldget from the organization, from
the traffic club, but from theindustry, it's been a wonderful
ride.
Um the reality for me is uhLaura and I both we kind of are
(39:09):
pay it forward, give back um asmuch as we can.
And uh we've been so blessedthat it would be inappropriate
for us to turn and walk away.
That that'd be crazy.
I love what I do.
I get to talk to you, Jen.
SPEAKER_03 (39:24):
Well, we love having you and admire all the
dedication that you have givento the industry, to the traffic
club, to TMSA.
This takes us to our lastquestion that I ask every person
who comes on the show, but I'mreally excited to hear your
answer.
And that's if you could go backin time and advise a younger
Denny, and this could bepersonally or professionally,
(39:45):
you can pick any age that youwant, but when would you go back
to and what would you say?
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Um I'm gonna look at my notes.
Okay, because this is a veryit's a good question.
I like it.
Um, my notes say, Jen, I've beenblessed.
Um I really have.
My life has really been a trueblessing.
(40:13):
I've lived through miracles.
Um beginning in 1954.
I can identify significant uhmiracle activity that has
happened in my life.
Um health.
Um we have seen in our family.
Um miracles happen when doctorssaid there is no hope.
(40:41):
Um and so uh we've we've workedthrough business, financial, not
just stress, tragedy.
Um and in the end, all of itcame out well.
Um and then again, more healthstuff with me personally, uh,
(41:03):
cancer and uh open heartsurgery, those kinds of things
um kind of slap you about thehead and shoulders, and and and
it makes you wonder um uh whatwould I do?
What would I do different?
Um, and so I think that thatkind of thing is important.
Uh we've raised three kids, 11grandkids, we have seven
(41:26):
great-grandkids, and I'm proudto indicate we've we've got one
due uh toward the end of thismonth, and uh another one um
that's in the oven uh for nextJune.
So um uh so life really has beena blessing in terms of uh if I
(41:46):
could go back.
Um there are probably fivethings that I think about that
seem to have been important orturning points in life.
Um the the and and in reverseorder, um one would be uh a
(42:07):
comment by Peter Drucker, um whowas interviewed many times, uh,
not by me so much, um, or asmuch, but Drucker wrote 32 books
on managing.
Um he was uh renowned, and hewrote a um a preface to one of
(42:28):
Bob Buford's book.
Um uh it was called um uh thefirst one he wrote was halftime.
Oh, it was called the secondhalf.
And uh in that foreword, PeterDrucker wrote about what our
generation would be known for.
I mean, would it be the uhpersonal computer?
(42:52):
Um would it be public policy?
Would it be AI?
Um, all very big and importantthings.
But Drucker said, no, we will beremembered, our generation will
be remembered for the choices wemake.
(43:14):
You know, that hasn't changed.
Uh the first choice that we hadwas in a garden a long time ago,
and so um I think that makinggood choices was one of those
five things that for me is uhimportant.
(43:36):
Another thing that I focused ona lot was leadership, to lead
well, um, but to be humble.
Uh I know that the person sayingit probably doesn't sound humble
when he said lead well, but umbut but I think that that's
important, and so much so that Ithink that within leadership
(44:01):
leaving a legacy, if you canfocus on uh your legacy and to
be intentional about it, uh Ithink that's very, very
important.
So I think too, as I think backwhen I was my younger self, what
would I do, what would I dodifferently?
Um, it would be to focus onthat.
(44:22):
Um beyond that, um to listenmore than I speak.
God gave us one mouth and twoears, and um it's hard for
somebody like me who's in thebusiness of speaking uh not to
(44:42):
uh talk a lot.
And so forgive me for taking upmore time than I probably
should.
Maybe this will end up on theedit floor.
That's okay.
Um, I want to be a good husband,a good father, I want to be a
good grandfather and greatgrandfather.
I want to be a good friend, andthat takes time and it's an
(45:07):
investment.
And um, and so for me that wouldbe important.
And then, of course, becauseit's in reverse order, the most
important thing for me isexpressing my faith.
I I want to be true to my God.
Um I need, I want to be able toshare my relationship with Jesus
(45:34):
to with anyone who would beinterested.
Um, it's not about a force, it'sabout a choice.
And so um for me, that would tobe able to share, um, and
especially in business, some ofthe most fantastic interviews
that I've been able to do havebeen with business guys who
(45:58):
happen to have a faith quotient,much as I.
And the consequence to that wasthe excitement that they would
generate uh within theprogramming.
And um, the comments that Iwould get were very positive.
Um, people want to know purpose,they want to know why they're
(46:22):
here.
And as we seek to develop ourpurpose in business as well as
in life, that's um where I wouldspend hours with anybody who
wanted to talk about it.
Um and I'm finding that mybusiness today, um last week,
(46:43):
uh, lunch with a friend who'sgoing through huge trauma, but
he's a business friend.
And most times people don't stoplong enough to listen to the
issues that are in the heads.
And and I I know there's so muchwork as as you guys did with the
(47:06):
joint meeting of uh TMSA and andthe traffic club.
Um, and uh you gals took overthat night and and uh did some
great stuff.
Um, one of the things that I'mfinding is that guys in
business, they don't talk aboutit.
And um they have all the sameissues that you gals do, uh, but
(47:27):
guys are pretty close to thevest.
They uh they don't show theircards and um sometimes suffer
because of that uh with a lot ofangst that they don't have to
have if they just have someonethat they could share it with.
Um the the all of those businessrelationships that go really
(47:48):
deep for me um have a faithquotient involved in it.
And uh so what would I dodifferently?
I would share more um where Iwas invited to share.
And uh I think that that couldbe a real value.
SPEAKER_03 (48:06):
I agree.
I think too, just like what yousaid about basically like men
also have feelings, and it'sokay.
Um, I think that's reallyimportant to note, and something
like as a boy mom, um I try toimpress in him every day, like
how we respond to those feelingsis different.
(48:26):
So we you are allowed to havethem, and so I think that's a
really good thing um for foreveryone to to process and
realize.
So thank you so much for comingon the show, for being a part of
TMSA and spending time with meto share the legacy that you are
leaving in the industry.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (48:45):
Thank you for your interest.
Um, thank you for the legacythat you are building.
Uh, I think that's very, veryimportant.
Um and I I just want to thankthe the members and the
membership and all the hardworkers, the the people who
behind the scenes are doing allkinds of stuff all the time.
(49:06):
I could sit here and list 50people right now that um that
have given me so much.
Uh and um and they've given theorganization everybody in it.
All we need to do is to make theright choices and then accept
the um the gift that others arewilling to give to them.
(49:30):
Thank you too for what you do.
Uh, I'm encouraged, and uh Ithink we've got uh a really
great future in your leadership.
So thank you for that, Jen.
SPEAKER_03 (49:41):
Well, thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for coming on the showand have a good one.
Until next time.
SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
Bye bye.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to On the Move, a show
where we share transportationsales and marketing success
stories.
I am Jennifer Carpis Romain,Executive Director of the
Transportation Marketing andSales Association, which is a
trade nonprofit in the spaceeducating and connecting
marketing and salesprofessionals.
And today on the show, it's avery special episode for me
(00:44):
because we have the Denny Grimmon the show.
He's the executive producer atBusiness to Business
Communications, but a lifer inthe transportation industry.
I was actually thinking I'veknown you for about seven to
eight years now, but thatdoesn't even hit the iceberg of
time that you observed at TMSAin the industry.
(01:05):
So welcome to the show, Denny.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
I'm good.
Thank you so much.
Um, just for having interest inuh a little bit of history about
the organization, uh certainlymy background, but um, and so
it's appreciated that you woulduh look to some of the history
of a really wonderfulorganization.
SPEAKER_03 (01:28):
Absolutely, and that is kind of where I want to
start.
So for people that don't know,um TMSA is a 100-year-old
organization, and you haveactually served TMSA before it
was TMSA, when it was TMCA, andwhen it had a whole bunch of
other names over the course oftime.
But you've been serving TMSA asa member for more than five
(01:49):
decades now, which is just atestament to yourself and your
selflessness to serve theindustry and the organization.
So let's start at the beginning,I guess.
How did you get involved in theindustry and what has kept you
here for 50 years?
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
It started in 1974.
You can look it up on the uminternet.
It it was a uh it was anexciting time for me.
I joined Modern Railroadsmagazine when there was a print
journal called Modern RailroadsMagazine.
It was part of Connor'sPublishing Company, which at the
(02:31):
time was one of the really biguh publishing, business
publishing organizations uhstateside.
Um and uh so Modern Railroadswas my beginning.
It was about learning atransportation industry, it was
also about uh learning the uhdepths of marketing,
(02:55):
particularly back then.
Uh the organization I joined wascalled ARAM, A-R-A-M, the
Association of RailroadAdvertising Managers.
Um, we evolved over time tobecome the Association of
Railroad Advertising andMarketing.
(03:18):
We elevated ourselves uh overtime.
Um, but it has given me alifetime of work.
Um years and years ago, when mylifetime achievement award was
presented, uh, it suggested thatif you have a lifetime of
achievement, you're supposed towork there for a lifetime.
(03:40):
And so I've tried to do that.
Um, it's been a gloriousexperience for me.
Um, but Jen, I would tell you inall uh honesty, it really has
been an opportunity to grow inrelationships with business
professionals, and the ones thatseemed to be so very valuable
(04:06):
were those where a relationshipwas actually built, where you
would spend time withindividuals.
Um I tell the story.
Ken Key is a past president ofARAM, and uh he was uh VP of
sales or VP of corporatecommunications at the Canadian
(04:28):
Pacific Railway.
Well, Ken and Norma, and Lauraand I, we've had a relationship
that never stopped.
Um Laura and and Norma are onthe phone every month um talking
to each other.
And that this was back in the II think it was the 90s when Ken
(04:51):
was president.
Um but uh uh certainly many ofthe people in our business were
customers, and uh so on the onehand, you do business with
customers, and that's good, andbut these things turned into
really human bonding, and wereally and genuinely care about
(05:14):
folks, and you follow them umliterally through a lifetime, I
have anyway, and um I've beenblessed to continue to live, and
so um uh I keep up with as manyof those old relationships as is
possible.
Um, in terms of um your initialquestion, this is a relationship
(05:40):
business.
Um people talk to people,companies don't talk to
companies.
So the individual growth,personal and professional
growth, is such a value, and uhthat's certainly kept us very
connected to the organizationand its evolution.
SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
I would agree.
I mean, I think even my time atTMSA, so I was a member, I think
it was either end of 2017, 2018is when I came in as a member.
And then I took this role in2021.
And if you ask me, the peoplethat I talk to on a regular and
daily basis, like half of them Imet through the association
(06:25):
because they do like and you'vegone through all this stuff,
like we went through COVIDtogether and being on calls, and
like we watch you watch eachother's kids grow up over the
internet, and like like I alwayslaugh, like Monroe, my son, he
calls Holly Loboda Miss Holly,who lives in the computer
because he that's when he seesher is on the computer.
(06:46):
So I'm like, she doesn't, shehas a home, but like that's you
know, and so it's just funny.
You you make these connectionsand these bonds, and you really
do travel through that.
And I think it's such an impactand a legacy.
I know from my experience, andso I can only imagine what it
would be like through all thattime.
Um, you've watched this industryevolve in ways that most people
(07:09):
will then never experiencebecause you've seen all of the
ebbs and all of the flows.
Like so many of us are like,will this market ever stop?
And you're probably like,eventually, yes, it will, and
then it'll happen again.
But um, in terms of sales andmarketing, I'm curious over that
evolution for you, what are someof the biggest changes you've
(07:31):
seen and been surprised by intransportation?
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
Well, the the big thing is um I came into this
industry when it was a regulatedindustry, and so um it was not
what we see today.
I say that.
It's always been about getting aproduct from point A to point B.
Um, but what we've learned overtime is the supply chain uh is
(07:58):
much more than when I started,railroads and railroading, and
it was uh, and it is more thantrucks and trains and boats and
planes.
The technology that's come inand all of those kinds of things
are very real and they are greatfor um moving the marketplace,
(08:22):
the the industry forward.
Um but uh few within our networkuh of our audience today um
understand what it was like backin the day.
Um if you if you will, um overthe previous hundred plus years
(08:47):
we were regulated, andregulation that um pricing was
regulated, operationscontrolled, and labor was
negotiated, and you didn't gooutside of those boundaries.
Uh the uh Interstate CommerceCommission kept you in check,
(09:07):
and so uh the cost of moving aproduct, any given product, uh,
was different um than it istoday.
Today the rates are negotiated,etc., etc.
But back then, uh, if you weremoving chickens, um there was a
rate.
If you were moving deadchickens, there was a different
(09:30):
rate.
And so um uh knowing how to moveand work within the regulated
industry was what people knewback then.
Marketing was marketing wasstrange.
Um uh um in the railroad, thinkabout that, in the railroad
(09:54):
industry pre-deregulation, umrailroad marketers were they're
gonna they're gonna contest mymy thought here, but uh by and
large, they were designers ofposters, great posters.
So when you went through arailroad station, you saw a
(10:18):
poster um that was encouragingyou to ride the rails to the
west.
I mean, passenger transportationadvertising was about selling
tickets and um and and very,very different than um than what
it is today.
Uh passengers never paid forthemselves to use the railroad.
(10:42):
Um freight was what it was thatmade the railroad successful
back then.
And if you think about it, Ijoined in 74, but uh in 24 when
all this started, um trucks, Imean, trucks weren't trucks,
trucks were dray horses thatwere pulling wagons.
(11:05):
Um, and and so um it was anindustry yet to evolve.
The railroads believed that theywere important, they were in the
railroading business, theydidn't even know they were in
the transportation business.
So um marketers had it had achallenge to say the least, but
(11:25):
um it's a very differentbusiness today than it than it
was then.
Um go back to your question.
I um uh in terms of watchingLucian, um we watched uh the
(11:46):
Association of RailroadAdvertising Marketing move from
an industry that had 71 classone railroads when I joined in
74.
Today we have six basicallyrailroads currently in North
America, and soon to be fewer ifthey have their way.
(12:09):
Uh it's all been under the guiseof doing business better for the
shipper.
Well, less competition is aquestion.
Is that better or not?
Um, but when you think you're inthe business of railroading, as
(12:30):
opposed to focused on uh thecustomer, the shipper, um you
may have a different outlook.
All that to say, as ARAM grewinto TMCA, the Transportation
Marketing and CommunicationsAssociation, um, we uh evolved
(12:54):
at least enough to know that wehad to get beyond an association
of six people.
Um you can't run an associationwith six.
Uh I think you would agree withthat.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
And the consequences, and we had
suppliers and the like, but um,but it became a very small
organization over time.
And um uh and so the invitationof all modes was really the
appropriate thing to do, and weopened our arms and invited in
(13:32):
um the other associations, someof which um wanted to join,
tried a couple of times to join.
There used to be a railroadpublic relations association.
Um, in in fact, in the railroadindustry, uh PR was sat right
(13:52):
outside of the president'soffice.
And the reason, of course, wasbecause if something falls off
the track, you you need a publicrelations program real quick.
Real quick, yeah.
And um, and and so um therethere was this evolution.
We we engaged with them a fewyears uh of meet of our
(14:16):
meetings.
Um, and uh so uh that along withthe old ATA Sales and Marketing
Council.
Um we have a number of peoplethat are members today and past
presidents today who haveparticipated in that.
Um and um and so bringing theorganizations together uh was
(14:42):
really beneficial.
I'd love to see a an evengreater amount of multi-modes
join us.
Uh but uh certainly withintermodal, we we play better um
today than than we used to.
And uh uh in in the days ofARAM, we had in the bylaws um a
(15:08):
requirement that said you mustbe a steel wheel organization.
And so so what they were tryingto say politely was truckers
stay out.
Uh we don't we don't like you,we don't care about you.
And what we've learned is thebest customers, don't tell
(15:30):
anybody, but the best customersof the railroad industry are
truckers.
Welcome, UPS.
Um, and so um uh we we do anawful lot of truck train
business today, and it is a umuh a huge network that has grown
(15:52):
markedly.
So um I'll uh I'm I'm rambling,so forgive me for that, but uh
but the fact is is that we'vedone well to grow into TMSA
today, and uh and we've grownwith folks just like yourself.
Um, Brian Everett, who precededyou and the mind share people,
(16:13):
uh, were was an organizationthat I had an opportunity to
work with for many of thoseyears.
Before that, there was a fellowby the name of Len Hall, who had
been at the Santa Fe Railway andum in their marketing
department, and he took over uhfor a period of time the the
files of before him.
(16:35):
Um Joe Joe Joe.
I'll I'll get Joe's last namehere in just a second.
Um Joe Singer.
Joe was the he was the executivedirector, if that's what we
called him, uh back in the olddays.
And um our communication was anewsletter that was mimeographed
(16:56):
and mailed um to the members.
And um, but it but Joe was ourconnection um uh in certainly in
the 70s and 80s, but he wasthere before that, um before I
came in.
Uh he was uh formerly with theChessy system.
And so um, for those of you thatdon't know, the Chessie was a
(17:19):
railroad back in the day, um,and became part of CSX.
At any rate, um uh there werelots of really great people who
gave a lot um during thoseyears, and uh and so um just a
little more history of your uhuh uh uh area of expertise
(17:44):
within the group.
We've had some great leaders.
SPEAKER_03 (17:48):
I um I love hearing about the leaders that come
before, and it sounds like Iknow this is true for myself and
Brian, and it sounds like fromwhat you just said, too, that
like almost every executivedirector, every CEO leader,
whatever came as like a memberand then dedicated themselves
into the role, which to me issuch a special thing for this
(18:13):
group.
Like you have to know the powerof an organization when people
fall in love with it as just amember and then dedicate their
careers to helping it um be asellish and grow it, which I
think is really special.
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
If we had some bumps in the road, um, I think they
were more, I don't know if it'sphilosophical, but we we have
had some um uh associationmanagement.
We had an association managementcompany that did uh was involved
in helping to lead the theorganization, um, particularly
(18:50):
when it was tough to findsomebody that was as dedicated
as you are or Brian and thelike.
Um there were many people wholoved the organization who
worked before it, but didn'thave all the skills that an
association management companymight have.
Um, I know Brian invested inthat, and and um and you do.
(19:14):
It's um so it's important toknow the business of your
business, which is associationmanagement.
Um what a typical associationmanagement company doesn't have
is they don't have the industryknowledge, um, nor necessarily,
(19:37):
in our case, the professionalskills that are that our members
demand.
And um, so it's hard to growmembership when you don't really
know who the players are, um,and it's tough to deliver on the
profession of marketing and orof sales that we have in need
(20:01):
today, and so um I I think thatwe've found the sweet spot in
you and Brian and and as youmentioned, in those who um
really have been uh dedicated tothe industry that you serve.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
I agree, and um, it's fun having you on the
podcast because I actuallydidn't prep you for this
question, so we'll see.
But um many, many times you'vetold me that you were like the
original podcaster because backin the day you would send out
clips of you, like tapes to yourcustomers of you talking about
(20:43):
stuff.
And I would love to hear moreabout that process because to me
that's a huge step into whatmarketing is today.
So many of us have podcasts, andthis is what we listen to, and
this is how we get ourinformation.
And you had that concept earlyon that people liked to listen
instead of reading sometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
It's so fun to tell the story.
Um, and I didn't realize ituntil much later.
Um, but in the day um when I wasat I spent 10 years in the print
business publishing uh focusedon transportation.
Um, and during that time, I'm abit dyslexic.
(21:25):
So um uh it's it was a challengefor me to read all the journals
that were being presented in theindustry and have a coherent
understanding from each of theirperspectives of their angle, if
you will, on transportation orlogistics, um, let alone the
(21:49):
supply chain.
And so um in 1984, I had done, Ileft Connor's Publishing Company
and did uh research withthousands of shippers and
carriers, um uh intermodalspecialists.
(22:12):
Um we we the third party washardly um an ingredient within
our industry at that time.
But um when I sent uh researchto General Motors, they
responded.
They in fact were the firstrespondent that I received, uh,
(22:34):
response that I received uh in amailed-out cassette and
questionnaire about our industryand marketing.
Would you listen to atransportation journal?
Well, we called ittransportation digest.
Um the the initial idea waswe'll go out and read all the
(22:56):
magazines and then, kind of likebooks on tape, we'll read it to
the industry.
Thought that was a wonderfulidea.
We produce 40,000 of thesethings and send it out to
everybody.
Um I thought it was a good idea.
Um uh and and so we did themailing, and um at that time, at
(23:23):
the same time, there was an ARAMmeeting, uh, the annual
conference.
It was in Miami, Florida at theDurral Country Club.
Woo! Uh it was a very specialdeal and place.
I remember it like it wasyesterday.
I guess that was the first one.
That was 74.
I'm sorry.
In 84, we were at Hilton Head,and um, a fellow by the name of
(23:49):
Woody Woodburn was the presidentof the association, ARAM, but he
was also president of anin-house agency at the Santa Fe
Railway.
And so I came and presented thiswonderful idea about 40,000
tapes going to the industry.
And wouldn't that be wonderful?
(24:10):
He said, um uh I I've got I'dlike to talk to you.
Can we when we get back toChicago on Monday, would you
come to my office?
Would I come to your office?
Yes.
So um so I did, and um he wantedto reinvent everything that I
(24:31):
had as a wonderful idea abouttalking to the industry with
45-day old news.
Um, because if you're readingpublications which take
particularly monthlypublications, which take time to
produce, and then you'reproducing that material later.
(24:55):
Well, it as much as I thought itwas a wonderful idea, it
probably wasn't, because Woodyhad a better idea, and that was
um they had their super C list.
Um, and don't ask me why the C,but a customer, I guess, super
customer list.
(25:16):
And so they wanted to send acassette tape that we would
produce with them as thesponsor, and we'd send it to
their list, but it needed to bean exclusive list.
Well, we did have personalcomputers in those days, so I
(25:39):
was able to sort lists uh backthen, but we didn't have an
internet and we didn't have cellphones.
Um, eventually bag phones camein and people rode around in
their car with a uh with them.
Um but um so there were no therewas no competition in the
(26:02):
automobile when people werecommuting to work.
By the way, the average commutewas 21 minutes.
That was then, this is now, it'sway longer than that now because
of congestion.
But um, so we had research thattold us what we could expect.
And um, and so what we did dowas to produce actual interviews
(26:26):
with industry leaders, certainlyin transportation.
I mentioned General Motors, theywere some of the first people on
the on the program.
So Santa Fe wanted to go toJerry Baudry at General Motors,
and because he was amulti-million dollar, he was a
billion-dollar customer.
(26:47):
So, anyway, um the all of thatto say um we were going to
utilize a very specificcustomer-focused interest um to
get to their key clients.
Um, it was interesting.
The program was sent, uh, thefirst program we did was sent
(27:11):
out on December 15th of 84.
And on December 17th of 84, Igot a phone call uh from a
fellow by the name of JackEdwards.
I didn't know Jack Edwards, buthe identified himself as VP of
sales and marketing at SouthernPacific Railroad.
(27:32):
When there was a SouthernPacific Railroad, if you looked
at a map from SouthernCalifornia to Chicago, ran the
Santa Fe and the SouthernPacific.
They paralleled each otherpretty much to Chicago.
Um Jack said, Hey, I'd like todo that program.
(27:53):
I said, How did you even knowabout it?
And uh he said, Well, my brotherworks for the Santa Fe.
We had many uh of the programsgoing internally as well as
externally.
So um Jack said, I'd I'd reallylike to go to General Motors and
(28:13):
uh Jerry Baudry is who I'd puton my list.
I said, Jack, we got a problem.
Can't go to Jerry Baudry.
Um, Jerry is already on thelist.
I didn't tell him who thesponsor was, but um, I only had
one sponsor at that point.
And uh, but I did say JerryBaudary has five direct reports.
(28:36):
I happen to know that because Ihad talked to Jerry, et cetera,
et cetera.
And he said, I want to go to hisfive direct reports, because
they were obviously the peoplethat would get the job later
when Jerry retired.
All of that to say we werecreating as we went this
(28:59):
programming concept.
One of the things I you learnedquickly is as good as the
content would be abouttransportation, it wasn't about
leadership, it wasn't aboutentrepreneurship, or a program
that I did for uh SouthernPacific was called
Intrepreneuring.
There's a book uh GiffordPinchot wrote way back when
(29:22):
about having entrepreneursinside your company.
So, anyway, we were doing thesekinds of interviews with authors
and speakers and leaders, um,certainly in our industry and
then beyond our industry.
And that's what was piquing thelistenership.
It wasn't about talkingnecessarily just about
(29:46):
transportation and eventuallytrucks before the trains and the
boats and the planes.
We tried that and cover it well.
Um, the the business journalswere doing a great job of that,
of course.
What we had were personalities.
And so people would want tolisten to the people that they
(30:06):
were trying to sell to.
And so we did have lots ofsubscriptions that went out to
the carriers within theindustry.
Building business-to-businesscommunications was really a
product that the customerscreated.
(30:29):
And so over time, certainly manyof the railroads and the
trucking companies, many of whomaren't anymore.
I mean, we don't have railroads,we don't have 70 of them
anymore.
And the trucking companies, ifyou look at the top 50 trucking
companies in the 70s, therearen't 50 of them there anymore.
(30:52):
So the but mergers andacquisitions and all of that
kind of thing came together.
One of the companies that wantedto speak to leaders in the
supply chain was a companycalled AT Kearney, a consulting
company.
They were a client of ours for20 years, but they came to me
(31:14):
and said, Denny, transportationdigest is not the title that we
need to reach CEOs of bigcorporations.
And they created, again for us,a title called Sound Business.
We did programming titled SoundBusiness.
(31:37):
We had another one titled SoundSelling for the Field Sales
Forces of My Clients.
But the concept was there.
It wasn't called a podcast, butit was a series of three and
five-minute conversations withindustry leaders, business
(31:58):
leaders, who had a great messagethat was condensed.
And then we would, on the salesside, we'd get people like uh
Brian Tracy and Tony Alessandra,Dennis Whaitley, Patricia Fripp,
Don Hudson, Jim Cathcart, allkinds of sales types, many of
(32:19):
whom became, would you believeit, speakers at TMCA back then.
And so we had a desire on thepart of people who wanted to
reach the industry to use ourmedium to reach out to the
(32:42):
marketplace.
And so that was very good forus.
And it it was content that wasso valuable for the audience,
but certainly for me.
(33:04):
Today, uh Joe Pelesi, our friendin marketing, would uh suggest
it was the item that wasimportant.
Uh content is king, he wouldtell us.
And so um, as marketers, we weregrowing, um, the industry was
growing, and without question,TMCA then was growing as well.
(33:28):
And um, so being able to helpput some of those conferences
together was a real boon for me.
Um, it it had it played wellinto what I was doing, and it
was free for TMSA or TMCA then.
Um so we we've really enjoyedthat as the medium changed.
(33:55):
We went from audio cassettes toCDs, and so we moved up in the
world.
Um, today, of course, uhcommunicating uh over the
internet works.
Look what you're doing now.
So uh it's funny for me becauseI'm sitting on the opposite end
of the chair that I normally sitin.
(34:18):
Usually I get to do theinterview.
SPEAKER_03 (34:20):
Yes, and I love that story just because I think it
shows how things transitionthrough time.
And like you said, like itstarted with the cassette tapes
and it went to CDs.
Now we're we're digital, and nowthis type of audio platform is
so big, and it just wasn'tsomething that people saw all
the time.
So I love it.
Um, so over the course of thisinterview, you've talked about a
(34:44):
lot of different um people fromthe past, a lot of different um
moments of TMSA.
But I just want to ask ifthere's one moment, person,
story that we haven't discussedyet that really stands out to
you as incredibly meaningful ormemorable?
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
Um the the story that I had thought about was the
Woody Woodburn story, but butbut in fact.
My affiliation with this group,it's all about people.
(35:21):
Um we've we've had some amazingthings go on in business.
Um as a very small enterprise.
I mean, we had a half a dozenfolks on uh well uh on payroll,
and then uh almost every programhad about 12 to 15 people on one
(35:45):
edition.
Um and uh in the beginning wewere twice monthly, we
eventually became a monthlyjournal.
Um but in terms of the who, um,it's the relationships and
friendships that have beenbuilt.
Um I feel like, I hope I could,but I feel like if I needed to
(36:11):
in the middle of the night, umI've got a half a dozen people
that I could pick up the phoneand call if I had an issue, a
problem, or a concern, and uh uhpersonal or business, and they
would help me manage through itin a heartbeat.
Um and the style doesn't go awayfor me.
(36:33):
In 1987, uh I joined the TrafficClub of Chicago.
Um I met the president and uh uhuh walking across a bridge at my
office down in the city, whosaid to me, You should belong to
the traffic club.
(36:54):
And oh, by the way, um, based onwhat you do, because the
president that year of thetraffic club was at Santa Fe, so
he knew very well what I did.
Um, he said, Um, I think you youyou'd be good if you were the
education chairman.
Well, I said, okay.
(37:18):
I I thought maybe it'd be goodfor me.
I didn't know any at the trafficclub, uh, except him.
And um turned out I've been theeducation committee chairman
ever since.
Uh it's it's like it didn't goaway.
Um everybody gets in the chairsand wants to be president of the
association.
I'm busy doing what I do.
SPEAKER_03 (37:39):
I'm good here, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
No, it's all good.
Um, in fact, last week um I wasat the TM, uh the Traffic Club's
uh forum and um introducing someguests that we've had as
customers and uh uh speakers tothe industry.
(38:03):
Um and so I I don't see stoppingwhat I'm doing.
When you love what you do, whywould you stop?
Uh I know I'm old and they sayuh you you've you've you've
spent your time.
But they gave me an emeritustitle to try to get rid of me,
but I'm not leaving.
SPEAKER_03 (38:20):
That's I remember when we celebrated our 100 year
anniversary last year, they werelike at TMSA, you know, are we
gonna give Denny a lifetimeachievement award?
I'm like, he got one in thenine.
Like I don't so I that's why Iwas like, but let's get him a
gigantic ribbon and make himwear it that says 50 so that
everyone knew that you werecelebrating 50 years, because I
(38:42):
was like, we still need torecognize what I was like, he
already got it in state.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Like there's nothing else we can give him on that
like award situation, but um,but that was cool, and um I have
been I have gifted all I couldget from the organization, from
the traffic club, but from theindustry, it's been a wonderful
ride.
Um the reality for me is uhLaura and I both we kind of are
(39:09):
pay it forward, give back um asmuch as we can.
And uh we've been so blessedthat it would be inappropriate
for us to turn and walk away.
That that'd be crazy.
I love what I do.
I get to talk to you, Jen.
SPEAKER_03 (39:24):
Well, we love having you and admire all the
dedication that you have givento the industry, to the traffic
club, to TMSA.
This takes us to our lastquestion that I ask every person
who comes on the show, but I'mreally excited to hear your
answer.
And that's if you could go backin time and advise a younger
Denny, and this could bepersonally or professionally,
(39:45):
you can pick any age that youwant, but when would you go back
to and what would you say?
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Um I'm gonna look at my notes.
Okay, because this is a veryit's a good question.
I like it.
Um, my notes say, Jen, I've beenblessed.
Um I really have.
My life has really been a trueblessing.
(40:13):
I've lived through miracles.
Um beginning in 1954.
I can identify significant uhmiracle activity that has
happened in my life.
Um health.
Um we have seen in our family.
Um miracles happen when doctorssaid there is no hope.
(40:41):
Um and so uh we've we've workedthrough business, financial, not
just stress, tragedy.
Um and in the end, all of itcame out well.
Um and then again, more healthstuff with me personally, uh,
(41:03):
cancer and uh open heartsurgery, those kinds of things
um kind of slap you about thehead and shoulders, and and and
it makes you wonder um uh whatwould I do?
What would I do different?
Um, and so I think that thatkind of thing is important.
Uh we've raised three kids, 11grandkids, we have seven
(41:26):
great-grandkids, and I'm proudto indicate we've we've got one
due uh toward the end of thismonth, and uh another one um
that's in the oven uh for nextJune.
So um uh so life really has beena blessing in terms of uh if I
(41:46):
could go back.
Um there are probably fivethings that I think about that
seem to have been important orturning points in life.
Um the the and and in reverseorder, um one would be uh a
(42:07):
comment by Peter Drucker, um whowas interviewed many times, uh,
not by me so much, um, or asmuch, but Drucker wrote 32 books
on managing.
Um he was uh renowned, and hewrote a um a preface to one of
(42:28):
Bob Buford's book.
Um uh it was called um uh thefirst one he wrote was halftime.
Oh, it was called the secondhalf.
And uh in that foreword, PeterDrucker wrote about what our
generation would be known for.
I mean, would it be the uhpersonal computer?
(42:52):
Um would it be public policy?
Would it be AI?
Um, all very big and importantthings.
But Drucker said, no, we will beremembered, our generation will
be remembered for the choices wemake.
(43:14):
You know, that hasn't changed.
Uh the first choice that we hadwas in a garden a long time ago,
and so um I think that makinggood choices was one of those
five things that for me is uhimportant.
(43:36):
Another thing that I focused ona lot was leadership, to lead
well, um, but to be humble.
Uh I know that the person sayingit probably doesn't sound humble
when he said lead well, but umbut but I think that that's
important, and so much so that Ithink that within leadership
(44:01):
leaving a legacy, if you canfocus on uh your legacy and to
be intentional about it, uh Ithink that's very, very
important.
So I think too, as I think backwhen I was my younger self, what
would I do, what would I dodifferently?
Um, it would be to focus onthat.
(44:22):
Um beyond that, um to listenmore than I speak.
God gave us one mouth and twoears, and um it's hard for
somebody like me who's in thebusiness of speaking uh not to
(44:42):
uh talk a lot.
And so forgive me for taking upmore time than I probably
should.
Maybe this will end up on theedit floor.
That's okay.
Um, I want to be a good husband,a good father, I want to be a
good grandfather and greatgrandfather.
I want to be a good friend, andthat takes time and it's an
(45:07):
investment.
And um, and so for me that wouldbe important.
And then, of course, becauseit's in reverse order, the most
important thing for me isexpressing my faith.
I I want to be true to my God.
Um I need, I want to be able toshare my relationship with Jesus
(45:34):
to with anyone who would beinterested.
Um, it's not about a force, it'sabout a choice.
And so um for me, that would tobe able to share, um, and
especially in business, some ofthe most fantastic interviews
that I've been able to do havebeen with business guys who
(45:58):
happen to have a faith quotient,much as I.
And the consequence to that wasthe excitement that they would
generate uh within theprogramming.
And um, the comments that Iwould get were very positive.
Um, people want to know purpose,they want to know why they're
(46:22):
here.
And as we seek to develop ourpurpose in business as well as
in life, that's um where I wouldspend hours with anybody who
wanted to talk about it.
Um and I'm finding that mybusiness today, um last week,
(46:43):
uh, lunch with a friend who'sgoing through huge trauma, but
he's a business friend.
And most times people don't stoplong enough to listen to the
issues that are in the heads.
And and I I know there's so muchwork as as you guys did with the
(47:06):
joint meeting of uh TMSA and andthe traffic club.
Um, and uh you gals took overthat night and and uh did some
great stuff.
Um, one of the things that I'mfinding is that guys in
business, they don't talk aboutit.
And um they have all the sameissues that you gals do, uh, but
(47:27):
guys are pretty close to thevest.
They uh they don't show theircards and um sometimes suffer
because of that uh with a lot ofangst that they don't have to
have if they just have someonethat they could share it with.
Um the the all of those businessrelationships that go really
(47:48):
deep for me um have a faithquotient involved in it.
And uh so what would I dodifferently?
I would share more um where Iwas invited to share.
And uh I think that that couldbe a real value.
SPEAKER_03 (48:06):
I agree.
I think too, just like what yousaid about basically like men
also have feelings, and it'sokay.
Um, I think that's reallyimportant to note, and something
like as a boy mom, um I try toimpress in him every day, like
how we respond to those feelingsis different.
(48:26):
So we you are allowed to havethem, and so I think that's a
really good thing um for foreveryone to to process and
realize.
So thank you so much for comingon the show, for being a part of
TMSA and spending time with meto share the legacy that you are
leaving in the industry.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (48:45):
Thank you for your interest.
Um, thank you for the legacythat you are building.
Uh, I think that's very, veryimportant.
Um and I I just want to thankthe the members and the
membership and all the hardworkers, the the people who
behind the scenes are doing allkinds of stuff all the time.
(49:06):
I could sit here and list 50people right now that um that
have given me so much.
Uh and um and they've given theorganization everybody in it.
All we need to do is to make theright choices and then accept
the um the gift that others arewilling to give to them.
(49:30):
Thank you too for what you do.
Uh, I'm encouraged, and uh Ithink we've got uh a really
great future in your leadership.
So thank you for that, Jen.
SPEAKER_03 (49:41):
Well, thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for coming on the showand have a good one.
Until next time.
SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
Bye bye.
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