December 15, 2024 • 53 mins
What if awakening in a psychiatric ward could be the catalyst for a transformative life change? Join us as Deborah Griffiths courageously shares her journey from a toxic marriage to becoming an empowered single mother and advocate. Her story is a testament to the strength and resilience required to break free from an abusive environment and rebuild a life filled with purpose and hope. Alongside Deborah, we explore the deeply complex layers of emotional abuse, highlighting the critical importance of recognizing the subtler signs of control and manipulation.
As we navigate the intricacies of Deborah's past relationship, stunning reflections emerge on the challenges of overcoming parental alienation and the resilience needed to reconnect with estranged children. Deborah’s narrative, intertwined with powerful personal stories, reveals the painful yet necessary steps taken to address substance abuse within the family. Through her journey, we celebrate transformation—her son’s triumph over addiction and the newfound strength and independence of her youngest child. This exploration underscores the necessity of setting boundaries and the power of unwavering support in overcoming familial adversities.
This season finale is not just a closing chapter but a celebration of survival and growth. Reflecting on 28 impactful episodes, including the tragic yet inspiring story of Nicole, we honor the countless survivors of domestic violence who have bravely shared their stories. With heartfelt gratitude, we appreciate our guests and listeners, promising more engaging content and enlightening stories in the coming year. As we prepare to return, we remind survivors that hope and support are always within reach, encouraging you to continue this journey of empowerment with us.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone and welcome to today's episode of On
the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum, mental healthchallenges and anybody who has
had an adverse story that canshare how they've overcome that
adversity and leave peoplefeeling empowered, connected,
(00:24):
full of love and hope, withcourage and determination,
especially in a world where weare made to feel disconnected
from one another.
Our goal here on this podcastis to help people feel connected
and feel like we are more alikethan different.
On this podcast episode today,we have a very special guest,
(00:51):
deborah Griffiths.
I met her.
I had the privilege of meetingher at CreativeCon back in
February of this year and I willbe seeing her in Chicago again
in 2025.
And I will be seeing her inChicago again in 2025.
And Debra is an amazing person.
I remember when she did herpodcast pitch in front of the
(01:16):
stage for everyone, and thereason I was drawn to her story
is all the reasons we're goingto talk about on today's podcast
.
Debra is a survivor of a toxicmarriage.
She's undergone a lot of abusein her marriage and she now uses
(01:36):
what she has gone through andhas a company called From Broken
to Boldness and it helps people, especially women, who've gone
through abusive relationshipsand she helps them with building
their self-esteem, reclaimingtheir life.
Because everyone knows and as atherapist here I can also say
(02:02):
one of the first things thatgets taken from people in any
kind of toxic relationshipwhether it be an intimate
relationship, whether it betoxic friendships, whether it be
a toxic employment relationshipor family relationship dynamic
the first thing that gets takenis, in fact, your sense of
self-worth, your sense ofself-esteem and your feeling
(02:24):
that, like who am I?
I don't you know.
If everyone hates me, I'm goingto hate me too.
Like what's wrong with me?
It's not uncommon for people toask these questions when
they've gone through things,especially when they are
belittled by someone who makesthem feel like the world is
against them.
And without further ado, let'sjust please welcome Debra to the
(02:47):
platform.
Debra, welcome on here.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Good morning Welcome.
Thank you, Sonia, for having me.
Thank you for the opportunity.
I look forward to having thechat.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, thank you so much for being here, debra.
Why don't you tell people alittle bit about you, in the
sense of like sharing a littlebit of your story?
Talking about you know just whoyou are.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Sure, I am actually divorced.
I'm a mother of three children,two boys and a girl, who have
long flown the coop.
But I found myself about 25years ago waking up in the psych
ward, learning that I hadattempted suicide.
And when my doctor who I hadbeen seeing because I had been
(03:39):
battling some depression anddidn't know quite why I was
battling depression he came intomy room and said your
environment is making you sickand that hit me like a 10-ton
truck, you know.
And I realized that themarriage that I had been in was
(04:00):
toxic and that I needed to getout of it was toxic and that I
needed to get out of it.
I wanted to show my kids thatthey had a strong mother.
I also wanted to show my kidsthat the abuse, what was going
on, this type of relationship isnot normal.
(04:22):
I did not want them to get intothese kind of situations, nor
did I want them to learn totreat other people, especially
intimate partners going forwardlike this.
So I felt like the abuse neededto end with me.
So I left the marriage.
And so I left the marriage andslowly but surely took two of
(04:46):
the three kids, because at thetime the oldest one was 14 and
could decide which parent hecould live with, and he chose
his father.
So I took the other two kids andI had been a stay-at-home mom.
So I had to find a place tolive.
I had to find a job that couldsupport two kids and myself and
(05:08):
slowly rebuild my life,including getting my kids some
some help, because there was alot of.
It was a bitter divorce.
I'll just say that it was verybitter and the kids, you know,
got caught up into it.
You know they exhibit some ofthe typical behavior, you see,
(05:30):
based on their ages.
At the time A lot of it wasacting out or, you know, anger,
but it just took a long time torebuild.
I eventually worked my way upthe corporate ladder and put
myself back to through schooland finished college and got a
college degree and worked withyou know been working with my
(05:51):
kids.
I have a great relationshipwith the three kids today.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
You know, and you know it's a very courageous uh
story.
You shared in the what you'veovercome and I know it takes a
lot of bravery to actually saythat this is what had happened
to me.
This is where I ended up,because I was in such a toxic
environment, waking up in a unit, because I tried to end my life
.
Um, tom, so if we were todissect this marriage, when you
(06:24):
look back at it, what were someof the things you started to
notice first, like what weresome of the red flags you that
were getting presented to youthat you missed at the time, and
how did it progress into aplace where you got so broken
down that you felt like the onlyway out is just not being on
(06:46):
earth anymore?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
That's a great question.
And it wasn't any one thing.
It was a combination of yearsof little things that kind of
kept adding up.
I was 19 when I married him.
When I met him, I thought hewas the one being brought up.
Catholic Divorce was not in thevocabulary and so, you know, I
(07:09):
took my vows very, veryseriously.
Probably the first red flag andI talk about a little bit in my
book is when my dad went towalk me down the aisle.
My stomach did a huge flip.
To walk me down the aisle, mystomach did a huge flip and I
(07:30):
remember grabbing onto my dadand he said you know, you don't
have to go through this.
Well, by that time there's 200people in the church and they're
all looking at me because I'mliterally in the entrance and
stuff.
And I thought, no, I thought Ichalked it up to wedding day
dinners and I didn't think youknow anything more about it.
And then it was just littlethings throughout the years,
(07:53):
like being told not to wear nailpolish or very controlling like
no, I don't think you should gosee.
You know, your friends, let'sgo do this instead.
Over the course of the yearsthere was more and more
(08:13):
isolation from my family.
He'd find ways of taking, maybe, things that I had said in the
past and twisting them andturning them.
Turning them, you know, to makeit think like, oh, yeah, yeah,
well, maybe you know, maybe,maybe maybe you're right.
You know, I realize now he'sprobably really paranoid, you
know, because not letting metalk to you know too much to
(08:36):
other people I wanted at onepoint in time there's an age
difference about six yearsbetween my oldest and the second
one, and I wanted to go back towork, you know, just to kind of
get out of the house a littlebit, because by that time the
oldest one was in, in likepreschool type of thing, and I
(08:57):
was basically told well, if youtake a job, you still have to
clean the house and keep the carup and keep the yard up, and I
want my shirts pressed andironed.
So I was made to feel like,well, why bother?
You know, it wouldn't evenallow the dry cleaners to, you
know, to press the shirts Right,and so it just eventually got
(09:22):
to the point where I didn'trealize it at the time, but I
was walking on eggshells, youknow, if the sky was blue, no,
there's a few clouds on it.
So, whatever I said, I was madeto feel like I was wrong.
And going back to that stomachflip, I'm about 17 years into
(09:46):
the marriage, right, and pickedup a magazine National Woman's
Magazine in the grocery storesdoing the weekly shopping and
there was a recipe on the coverand I thought, well, let me try
that something.
And there was an article inthere about verbal abuse and I
remember seeing it and I justput the magazine down, didn't
(10:14):
think about it.
And a couple of days later Ipicked up the magazine and I
read the article and this womantalks about how her stomach was
flipping every time her husbandwould come home and she knew
that there was something wrong.
Stomach was flipping every timeher husband would come home and
she knew that there wassomething wrong.
Now, by this time in themarriage, my, my ex was, um,
doing a lot of traveling, sohe'd be gone for almost a week
at a time, which was kind oflike a breathing room now that I
(10:36):
look back at it.
And when he opened up thegarage door coming home, it was
like Friday afternoon.
My stomach flipped and Ithought, oh no, this couldn't be
.
So the next week, um, ithappened again and by about that
(10:58):
time.
Um, I decided to to seek somesome professional help because I
didn't know, I wasn't happy.
And I picked up the phone oneday and talked to my mom.
Now, granted, this was back inthe day when the rates were
cheaper to dial after 7 o'clockor to call after 7 o'clock than
now, but this was during themiddle of the day and, again,
(11:23):
even calling my parents, it wasvery controlled, like how often
I could call them, when I couldcall them, etc.
So I call my mom and I said iseverything OK?
And I said you know, I don'tknow.
I said all I know is I'm nothappy and I don't know why.
And she said I have beenpraying for this call for years,
(11:48):
oh my.
And I said what?
And she said we talked a littlebit about some stuff, maybe why
I wasn't happy.
And she said you know, becausewe always thought he was
controlling but we couldn't putour fingers on it, thought he
was controlling but we couldn'tput our fingers on it.
(12:09):
So that's when I knew I neededto probably get some help and
kind of figure this out, whatwas going on.
And I remember the first visit.
I'd written a bunch of stuffdown and I'm reading it to the
doctor.
And at the end of the session,I mean, he didn't say a word, I
just kept talking.
And at the end of the session,I mean he didn't say a word, I
just kept talking.
And at the end of the session Ijust said you know, I don't
know what's wrong with me.
And he looked at me and he saidthere's nothing wrong with you.
(12:32):
And that just started my wheelsturning.
It's like, okay, if there'snothing wrong with me, then what
is going on?
Am I not happy?
And that's when we slowlystarted unraveling some of this
stuff.
I learned about codependencyand boundaries and, um, you know
(12:55):
, was trying to talk to my ex atthe time and and I had to be
very careful about it because Ididn't know when he was gonna
fly off the coop and and so itit just didn't.
It just kept spiraling downhilland he tried to make an effort,
you know to to make somechanges, but it was you know how
(13:16):
your your pendulum it was.
It's stuck in one way.
Then all of a sudden it goesthe other way.
It's like wait a minute, aminute, I can't handle that.
I need, I need something morein the middle and it just kept
spiraling and I started to getvery, very depressed.
As I say that, that to thepoint where you know I attempted
suicide.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And so, and that's a really really that's really
tough.
And you know, I do see a lot of, you know, understanding and I
have a lot of understanding,rather, about how you felt in
that sense because you know,based off alone what you're
saying about how everything wascontrolled.
(13:59):
Even if you had a job, therewere certain tasks that needed
to be done, things done in acertain way.
It seemed like you know alsoeven your own parents.
The amount of contact you couldhave with your parents, even
with your friends, that was alsovery controlled as well.
So it seems like you werepractically living in a prison
(14:20):
in your own home.
You know, you know it's likeyou were a prisoner in your own
home and the prison guard reallywas your ex.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, you know, when you now look at it it does paint
that picture and as, again,this took 17 years to get to, to
get to this point.
So you know we did have somegood memories.
I mean, there's always.
I have great memories of youknow, my kids and doing things
with them and stuff like that.
(14:50):
I don't want to paint it all asthe the, the bleak, a bleak
picture, but when it but, it wasenough.
What do they call it?
It's like love.
You know, things are all of asudden good and then you think
everything's good and then allof a sudden there's a bomb drops
(15:12):
and it's like what in the worldjust happened?
And you're you're thinking,well, what did I do, what did I
say?
And it hadn't been nothing, youknow, and I could have sneezed
the wrong way.
It couldn't have been nothing,you know, and I could have
sneezed the wrong way, and thebomb just drops.
And then you know, then thingsstart getting good again and
then the bomb drops again.
(15:32):
So it was that constant, whatthey now call love bombing that
I was involved in.
So that's why it took.
It took a long time for me tokind of realize it and again, 25
years ago.
They didn't really talk aboutit, they didn't even call what I
was going through gaslighting.
(15:53):
They barely called it verbalabuse and really didn't even
liken that to domestic abuse,which we now know is part of
gaslighting is part of domesticabuse, abuse, which we now know
is part of gaslighting is partof domestic abuse.
So there's, you know, I'm kindof like living in a time where
there's not a lot talked aboutor and again, control.
(16:15):
You know, it was more like myparents thought he was
controlling Not so much.
You know, narcissism wasn'teven really talked about, you
know then, and him justexhibiting narcissistic
tendencies which led to this.
So I'm grateful now there's alot more information, you know,
(16:36):
for people to be aware.
It's just sad that still somany people are caught in these
type of situations and why.
I really kind of want to talkabout it and raise these red
flags, and it's not just the redflags, it's the subtleties of,
of the abuse.
Because you can, you, you know,I'm the kind of type, I'm the
(17:00):
type of person that I try tolook for the good in somebody
before I ever see the bad.
And you know, it's so easy tochalk off something like OK,
well, he got bad.
Maybe he's just having a badday, and then it gets to the
point of how many times are yougoing to chalk it up to he's
(17:20):
having a bad day?
Is writing it as an excuse?
That's something that I didn'tcorrelate to, and one thing is I
will say is I wish I hadlistened to my gut at the very
beginning, but then again Idon't regret anything because
(17:43):
number one, I learned a a lotand I wouldn't have the three
kids that I have today.
So I and I'm the type of personthat thinks that things happen,
and things happen to us or forus to get to a certain point,
you know, as part of our purpose, our overall purpose I feel
(18:07):
like now, you know, it's my turnto help somebody else.
Somebody else gets that flip intheir stomach from what I just
said today and made a change tosave their life, then this is
worth it.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You know and when you look back at you know the that
flip in your stomach that youhad when you were walking down
the aisle.
Was there something that youmay have noticed when you were
dating that we can look back andreflect on and think you know
what this is, this was not okay,I should have or not?
(18:46):
I don't want to, and I teach myclients this all the time.
We never want to be like shouldhave, you know, like I tell
them stop shooting yourself allthe time.
Right, because we never want tosay should have.
But what is something maybe Ilearned from this?
As another way, let me rephrasethat Look, what is something I
could have learned from thiswhen I look back, you know in
(19:08):
the dating stages let alone themarriage, but the dating stages
that when I was all dolled upwalking down the aisle with all
these people at the church, Icould have avoided maybe.
Perhaps I could have maybechanged direction or try to work
things out or whatever you hadto do beforehand or said
(19:32):
something beforehand.
Knowing what you know now, whatis something in dating that you
may have seen?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
That's a great question, because there was an
incident.
We met in college.
It was both our first year incollege and about it was like
the first week of college.
Basically we met and we bothhad early morning classes and so
we would meet in the parkinglot and for the most part for I
(20:01):
don't know half a dozen, maybe adozen times, he he'd come to my
car, we'd sit in the car, we'dtalk, um, listen to music.
You know, before we had toactually get out to, you know,
get go to class.
One morning I'm in the parkinglot and he doesn't come over, he
just sits there, won't look atme, won't, won't do anything,
(20:22):
you know nothing.
And I just sat in the car anddid my thing and and then um, go
to leave for class and I saidgood morning and nothing.
I got like the dead silenttreatment and uh, it took almost
all day, you know, for for himto kind of finally say you know,
(20:43):
do I have to be the one to doall the work, you know?
And blah, blah, blah, blah, andI'm like I'm sorry, I didn't
know that this bothered you, youknow you never said anything to
me and I look back now is like,well, that was, he should not
have treated me that way, youknow, he, I did deserve a
conversation and if it'sbothered, and then then say, hey
(21:07):
, you know, hey, how about?
Maybe on Tuesdays you come into, you know, you come to my car,
and Thursdays I go to your car,something to that effect, and it
was through.
Uh, and there were a couple ofother incidents.
I can't quite recall them offoff the top of my head, but I
know that that was a prettypivotal one early on.
(21:30):
And and again, I didn't sayanything to my parents or
anything, because didn't didn'treally think to, because I think
if I had said something to mymom she probably would have said
, well, that seems weird and um,but going back after I left,
I've always kept, I've alwayskept, like, all the cards and
(21:51):
think, you know, my kids artwork, all that kind of stuff
throughout the years and I'mlooking at all these cards and a
bunch of them must have startedoff saying I'm sorry, I made
you angry, I'm sorry'm sorry,I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and I'm
like, oh my gosh, and you know,I'm apologizing for things that
(22:15):
I shouldn't have apologized forso your ex made you feel like
you were the problem each andevery time, yes.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Was there ever a time you remembered him taking
accountability for anything?
No, no.
And was there ever a time whenyou decided then, like was there
ever a time then your kids,like, did they ever get treated
also by your ex in the same kindof way, or was it different?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
That's another interesting question my oldest I
always joke that I have his andher boys and a combination girl
.
By that I mean my oldest onelooks like his dad.
My second son looks like me andthen my daughter has both of
(23:24):
her brother's features and looksand stuff.
My oldest one was always thefavorite and I think maybe a lot
of it was because he lookedlike his dad.
When my second one came alonghe looked at him and said, oh,
(23:44):
he looks different.
And and that was before I couldyou know the nurse the nurse
came and put him in my arms andwhen I took a look at him and I
went, oh no, I thought he lookslike me, you know, and I said
it's okay, it's amazing what DNAand genes do.
And always throughout the yearsthere was a difference between
(24:09):
how the two boys were treated.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
the years there was a difference between how the two
boys were treated and a lot oftimes, people with a toxic kind
of personality um will do thatright.
They will love to.
You know, divide people dividebecause in doing so right
(24:33):
they're able to control, keeptheir control, have their power,
exert their power.
And you know, one of the keysof people who are toxic is they
want you to feel like you cannotlive without them, that you
would not have, you would nothave anything.
You would not have anything Ifit wasn't for them.
(24:54):
It's, you know that it's justone of those things they want
you to feel like.
Okay, like you're.
You know that You'resuffocating In there the air you
need.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, and his parting words to me Were you will never
make it and no one will everlove you, and they're the air
you need.
Well, and his parting words tome were you will never make it
and no one will ever love you,which, by that time, that was
the wrong thing to say to me.
So it just propelled me toprove him wrong, and I, you know
(25:33):
I have.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Absolutely you have, I have, so you.
So tell me a little bit nowabout, like what it was like to
go through this divorce.
Now I know his parting wordswere very harmful and untrue and
(25:56):
, once again, all driven mostlikely because of his fear he
was losing control at that pointof view, and he was losing
control of a family unit.
So what, um?
So what was the divorce processlike for you?
You know what was it like withthe kids.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Well, once he I finally had the courage to say
this isn't working, I can't dothis anymore.
He took it better than Ithought he would and we each got
attorneys started doing theprocess.
But when it came time for me tomove out I couldn't even get
all my stuff.
He had changed the locksthankful that I had the child
(26:55):
support garnished, because therewas other aspects that that he
was supposed to reimburse me forand it didn't happen until like
18 years later.
So it was pretty, pretty messyand he started alienating with
the kids that the oldest oneparticularly, got to the point
where he wouldn't even talk tome if I were to call, say hi at
the weekly visits we were stillliving in the same city at the
(27:19):
time oh, he wouldn't, hewouldn't come.
This is my oldest child now.
He wouldn't come.
You know, spend time with mefor dinner, things, things of
that nature.
The other two would go to gosee their dad.
They would come back fromvisitation Kind of hyped up.
(27:43):
They would act out for a littlebit until you know they got
back into the routine becausethey would hear a lot of you
know dad said this about you orthat.
You know they got back into theroutine because they would hear
a lot of you know well, dadsaid this about you or that you
know this and that.
And the kids I mean my youngestone was about five or six at
the time, so this was still apretty impactful formative years
(28:06):
.
You know for them, you know forthem for them.
Uh, then about a couple yearsand into this, he met someone,
remarried, moved out of state.
We were both living in Georgiaat the time and my family was in
California.
So once he moved, then I wasable I moved back to California
(28:31):
to have more family support forthe two kids that I had.
And also by that time my oldestone had left the house, he had
started college, so he was in adorm.
So I felt like that wasprobably the best timing for me
to make my move with the othertwo.
And again, not much of arelationship with the oldest one
(28:54):
.
That took many, many yearsbefore we could kind of
reestablish that relationship.
I remained.
You know it's painful as amother not to have a
relationship with your child.
It's pretty painful.
I just was consistent.
(29:16):
I would call weekly, leave amessage, and you know that was
it.
Every now and then he wouldcall because there would be
something going on that heneeded help with.
He wouldn't call his dad he wascalling me and and then
(29:37):
eventually, um it, it just allkind of changed and now we have
we have a great relationship.
It took a long time.
Uh, the basic thing anybody, Iwould say, going through
parental alienation.
My heart goes out to you.
Number one and number two beconsistent.
Even if they don't pick up thephone and talk to you, just
(29:59):
leave a message, send thebirthday card, send the
Christmas card, but beconsistent.
It's that consistency that kidsrely on.
And then the other two my sonhad a lot of anger issues and
(30:24):
especially would act up after hewould have a visit with his dad
, and he actually went down theillegal drug route for a while
and this was he ended updropping out of high school,
which pained me.
And when he turned 18, and Ihad taken him to rehab a couple
(30:48):
of times and not try to get himcleaned up and stuff Well, he
relapsed.
He had turned 18 and I kickedhim out.
He was doing drugs in front ofhis sister.
And I said I'm not allowing this.
He said you, you, you got to goHardest thing I ever had to do,
(31:12):
but the best thing I ever did,and probably within six months,
probably even less than that.
There was an incident where hewas.
He called me, he was down atthe sheriff's department and
this was like two in the morning.
I thought he had gottenarrested.
But there was another incidentthat he was there at the time
and and I happened to talk tothe sheriff and I said is there
(31:34):
any way you can put him in aholding cell for 24 hours?
For him, I just need him to getto rock bottom, because he was
high at the time.
And the sheriff said he's highright now.
He goes.
I would love to be able to helpyou to do that, but the laws
have changed and we can nolonger do do that kind of stuff.
(31:55):
I said okay, so I took him homewith me that night.
I said it's like by this timeit's like four in the morning
and I said I gotta get to work,but you just crash on the couch
and I will take you to like aABC facility or something like
that the next morning.
So I'm getting ready for work.
I happen to look out throughthe window at the patio and he's
(32:19):
sitting on the patio and I said, are you okay?
And he starts sobbing and hesaid Mom, all of this time I
have been mad at you when itshould have been dad.
But I know, and that shockedhim that when I said I know, and
(32:54):
he and he decided then toenlist in the, in the army, get
his act together, he went back,got a diploma, found the way to
to do that and went into thearmy, served for 12 and a half
years, including a year inafghanistan, and I couldn't be
more proud.
And then my daughter uh, sheprobably had, because she was
the youngest, probably had theleast impact, but what I did
(33:15):
find was, you know, she could bekind of clingy at clingy and
needy, you know, especially forme.
And when she got ready to go tocollege, she went to, she
stayed in a dorm, got into adorm and stuff best thing, best
thing ever, you know, for her toget, just to get some of that
independence.
And she's now married, andhappily married, actually three
(33:39):
years, their three yearanniversary today and has a
almost five and a half month oldlittle boy.
So she's doing well little boy.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
So she's doing well.
Yeah, you know, and it's aremarkable, you know, journey
with your children.
You know how they, you know,especially with your son turning
his life around and you know,and also you know the journey
with you, know how things haveevolved with your, with your
children and, um, you know, I'mreally, you know, touched by how
(34:13):
your son was able to say, youknow how he felt, finally, after
all these years, and what wasit like for you to hear what
your husband would say, ex,would say about you to your kids
, and when they would come andbe that messenger and tell you.
What was that like for you tohear that these things were
(34:36):
being said about you.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh, it makes you angry.
Um, it really, you know, andand it's hard, because you're
trying to heal yourself, youknow, and get over the some of
the you know, rebuild your selfesteem, and then to hear it, and
it's kind of hard.
Sometimes it would trigger me alittle bit more than than
(34:58):
others, but I always, always didmy best and never bad mouth him
and then just kind of just sayyou know, let him do all, let
him be.
That's your dad, this is me.
I'm not going to do that.
Let's try to focus on somethingelse that's more positive, more
healthy.
We're living our lives, we'regoing to be happy, we're going
(35:22):
to survive, we're going to befine, right.
But it takes a while.
I mean, you know, now there'severy now and then something is
sad and it's like, okay,whatever, you know.
And now I can just shr sad andit's like okay, whatever.
And now I can just shrug it offlike eh, whatever.
After all, this time it's likeif he's still angry at me.
(35:51):
How sad, how sad.
It's been a long time, over 25years.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
It's long past the time to get over it.
I have other things to do, Idon't have time for the anger
and the hate, and you'veactually showed through your
actions you don't have time forthe anger and the hate.
So you went back to school.
What did you get?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
your degree in In organizational leadership.
By that time I was in thehomeowners association industry
where I was there for like 30years.
So you know, from managingcommunities to getting into
supervision and stuff ofmanaging other managers and
helping empower them to managethe communities and stuff that
(36:34):
they were assigned.
So it's a challenging industry.
There's no ifs ands or butsabout it.
But you know it treated mereally well for raising two kids
and you know I recently retired, earlier this year so I could
focus more on writing andraising awareness.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
And in your writing.
Now you have written a book,torch by a Gaslighter, which you
fictionalized, which tells yourstory more.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yes, and yes it's based on true events, but those
true events are what wouldhappen to me those true events
are what would happen to me.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Okay, and I'm really looking forward to reading it.
I have it on my list of thingsto read, so and I'm actually,
once I'm done reading it, Ithink I'm going to share this
book with other people and shareit.
I actually have some clientsright now who are going through
what you're going through, orwent through.
Rather um, one's in the processnow and um, so I'm definitely
(37:37):
excited to share it with them.
Uh, and also, you started now acompany from broken to boldness
.
Can you tell us a little bitabout when that formed, uh, how
you got into that, doing that,and, um, what it's been like for
you to have this up and running?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, after I, or as I was writing Torched I just
call it Torched for short.
You know the publisher wastalking about, you know, being
able to promote your book andstuff and that's when I thought
about, well, come up with acompany name.
And we were Googling, you know,noodling all kinds of things,
(38:18):
and I came up with that andbroke into boldness because it's
like at one point in time I wasbroken and now I've come pretty
much full circle and I'm prettybold and coming out and
speaking about it and raisingawareness.
And I'm pretty bold in comingout and speaking about it and
raising awareness.
So I started that and so, youknow, 50% of the book sale
(38:40):
proceeds are being donated tothe Nicole Sincouli Foundation.
Nicole lost her life young woman, early 20s, from her boyfriend
who domestic violence killed herwith a claw hammer, stuck her
like 13 times, horrible,horrible story.
I knew the parents I went toactually college with with her
(39:02):
father, so, uh, so it's likepartnering with that foundation
and you know my website has somesome uh resources and stuff,
including the national domesticviolenceestic Violence Awareness
Hotline information like that.
Again, it's just about raisingawareness and continuing to, you
(39:23):
know, to do that and lookingfor ways to tell my story.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
And what are your, you know, and I want to first
and foremost, commend you on allthe work you've done and thank
you for all the awareness thatyou're putting out there and for
sharing your vulnerabilitiesand for sharing your story.
I feel like the more we hold in, you know, the more that it
(39:53):
keeps us back, but I feel likeonce we let our stories out,
it's like we become likemetamorphed into butterflies and
can fly.
The way I look at it, Like youknow, by holding it in, you stay
that caterpillar right.
And then letting it out.
Letting it out, you metamorphinto a butterfly and what you've
(40:22):
been through and the fact thatyou're so brave to share with us
today.
I just can't thank you enoughfor all of this and, honestly,
it's an honor to have you onhere to share this with me.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
You're so sweet.
Thank you so much.
I think the biggest thing thatholds us back is fear.
Yes, it is, and I know I wasafraid, you know, of even
getting it out there and starttalking about it.
And I was afraid, you know,when I before, right before I
released the book, and it's likewhat are people going to think?
(40:52):
You know what?
How are they going to look atme?
How are they?
It's like how, how, why would awoman like that stay in a
situation for so long?
All of these thoughts keptgoing into my head.
And when I started talking aboutit, you know, for the pre-sales
, I had more people come up tome, including in the, in my HOA
(41:14):
industry at the time.
They're saying thank you, thishappened to me, thank you for
sharing your story.
And the fear lifted, you know,and even the fear of leaving the
marriage, you know, all themany years ago.
So many women and there's menthat stay in these kind of it
(41:38):
happens to men too.
I don't want to just say it'swomen, but I can only speak from
a woman's perspective.
We stay in these relationshipsbecause we're afraid.
We're afraid of more abuse,we're afraid we're not going to
be able to make it, cause ittakes, like women, seven times
(41:58):
before they can, you know, onaverage to actually leave these
relationships because there's somuch fear and and, and it's all
I can say is make the decision.
If you need help cause you'reafraid there's it's more
physical violence and stuffinvolved, contact the national
domestic violence awarenessoutline.
(42:19):
They can help you.
Um, but get out, because I'mtelling you you can rebuild your
life and cross that bridge andyou're gonna you're gonna be so
glad you did.
Your kids will thank you, yes,yeah, and I think what also
makes it going to be so glad youdid.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Your kids will thank you.
Yes, yeah, and I think whatalso makes it going to your
point you were saying it takes aperson seven times on average
to leave.
I think what makes itespecially tricky, though, is
the fact that most violence thepeak of you know most people,
when they get killed by adomestic violent ab the
(42:57):
resources when they'redisclosing they're going to
leave to be protected.
Is there a way that perhapsmaybe policemen could come to
(43:23):
the house or some security couldbe sent, or is there, is there
something like that going on forpeople right now?
For people?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
right now?
Yes, I believe so, and I wouldalso check with your local city
and county.
You know, even like thecourthouse, you know there could
be resources right there inyour local city and county that
can help provide thatinformation A lot of times if
it's going to be that violent.
You know they kind of cautionyou not to tell anybody your
(43:56):
plans, because people can findout.
They can search your phone,they can search your Internet
activity.
There's ways you can do thismore safely Go to local shelters
, Contact the local shelter.
Go there, contact the localshelter.
Uh, go there, they can.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
They can help protect you and get the, the police or
the sheriff, the local lawenforcement and stuff to help to
help yes, yes, and I thinkthat's, you know, a valuable
resource for people to know,because a lot of people right
now may be in these situationsand the holidays surely don't
(44:35):
make it easy at all no, I wasjust going to say, in fact, a
lot.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
There's more.
The incidence of domestic abuseincreased during the holidays.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yes, you think about all those expectations that
people want met during theholidays too, all those
expectations that people wantmet during the holidays too.
And if you're already in acontrolled setting, it only just
amplifies even that much higher.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, especially if there's any kind of money
concerns.
You know people, that you knowfinancials.
All that stress can put atrigger on someone exploding and
you know controlling asituation and more victims.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
So what would be your piece of advice to people going
through this now?
What would be your biggestpiece of advice to people trying
to, you know, who've just lefta relationship that was abusive,
who just are trying to rebuildtheir lives, people who are
going through it and are scaredto leave Like?
What kind of advice pieces oflike advice or pieces of
(45:43):
empowerment or suggestions canyou give?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Well for women who have just left these
relationships.
Don't give up hope.
There is help out there.
There's resources, a lot moreresources than when I did it 25
years ago.
So reach out.
If you need to get professionalhelp, get professional help
(46:10):
there's, you know, your family,your friends.
Just look for those resourcesAgain, the local shelters and
stuff can help also help.
If you're in the middle of asituation and you think that I
can't do this anymore again,reach out, maybe to the local
shelters or the domesticviolence hotline shelters or the
(46:38):
domestic violence hotline andask them to help and give you
the guidance that you need toprotect yourself and your
children so that you can safelyleave.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
And um Debra, where can people find you if they want
to reach out to you for support, for any kind of, you know,
just information, or Sure,probably the best way is my
website, wwwwereopentwo, andthat's eoholdnesscom.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
My email address is on there.
Boldnesscom, my email addressis on there.
You know my book.
You can purchase my book on thewebsite as well.
It's also available on Amazon.
So, yes, that's probably thebest way to reach out.
Contact me, I'm here to help.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I'm here to help.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I'm here to listen.
I'm here to help.
I'm here to help.
I'm here to listen.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
You know you're doing such amazing work and I want to
thank you.
You know, and I just rememberwhen you did your podcast pitch
about how you went from wakingup in the unit you know you were
doing that podcast pitch forpeople on stage, on the main
stage at creative con.
I remember just really reallygetting drawn into your story at
(47:59):
that point because it was justso powerful and the way you
delivered it and the way thatyou expressed yourself and the
things you have shared atcreative con.
Um, I think you know your storyis going to help so many people
.
You've already been making somuch impact.
You've done an amazing job,being persistent and, you know,
(48:23):
building bonds with yourchildren and even though, yes,
the road was not easy at all foryou, but you really have shown
and I think your story is a truetestament that anybody can and
will rebuild their life with theright determination, with the
right courage, with the rightmotivation and somebody as bold
(48:44):
as you are.
You are nowhere close to evenbeing broken and, if anything,
being broken, if you look atthat too, that's also a
beautiful thing in and of itselfin some ways, you know, if we
look at that, because whenyou're broken.
This is what allows the lightto come into you, right?
(49:05):
Yes, yeah, broken glassreflects a lot of light, if we
like that yeah, yeah, you're,you're right.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, and and I'm not ashamed of saying that that I
was broken.
I'm not again.
Um, I was recently readingsomething and I kind of wrote a
little bit of a little blogabout it.
But you know, life happens foryou, not to you.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yes, yes, you know, and I feel like that is such an
amazing testament to what lifereally is, because everything
that happens to us depending onour outlook, it can we don't
(49:52):
have answers to, right?
Nobody ever asks to get abused,nobody ever asked to get you
know, be living in war zones,for example, or be brought up in
situations where you know you.
You're not even sure ifstepping outside the house could
be your last time steppingoutside the house, right?
(50:12):
Where?
Because the neighborhood is sovolatile, certain things just
don't have the answers to.
But you know, I think.
But you show us today on herethat you put that power in you
and the magic happens when youdecide to give that power to
(50:33):
yourself instead of giving itaway Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Well, Debra.
Thank you so so much for beinghere and everyone.
This wraps season one of On theSpectrum with Sonia and it's an
auspicious episode and I oh myGod I'll try not to cry when I
do this.
I ended it.
This is episode number 28.
28 is a special number for mebecause my birthday is August
28th.
(51:10):
I got the privilege of wrappingup season one of On the Spectrum
with Sonia with a fabulousguest that I met at Creative Con
this past February and I'mgoing to see her again.
Funny enough, the people whopublished her book for
motivation champs with DominicDomansky, who is simply the best
publisher on earth.
He's actually publishing mybook dropped in a maze, which is
going to be launched February21st.
(51:32):
Deborah will be there, guys.
So another reason for you guysto come and support this cause
and come to the book launch andpurchase the book, Um, and also
purchase Deborah Griffith's booktorch by a gas lighter torch
for short.
You can get it on Amazon.
I promise you you will read itand it will be so helpful, Maybe
(51:56):
, if not for yourself, forsomebody you love or you know,
whether it be a colleague, afriend, a cousin, an aunt, your
mom, who knows who?
It can help, but it will helpmany people out there and um
(52:21):
many people out there.
And also, you know, just be onthe lookout, because Deborah is
up to great things and she is anunstoppable force.
And she has taught us today thebiggest thing right, Right,
(52:44):
Listen to your gut.
You have the power in you.
You are not the the problem.
When you're in an abusiverelationship where somebody is
constantly belittling you,controlling you, the problem is
not you, it's the other person.
And the other person get asnasty as they may, but you are
not the opinion of them.
So, with that being said, we'reconcluding this.
(53:09):
Thank you all for tuning in.
I will be resuming on thespectrum with Sonia after the
new year.
All for tuning in.
I will be resuming on thespectrum with Sonia after the
new year, and so stay tuned forgreat, great guests and more
great content to come.
Thank you all for those who'vebeen supporting me.
Thank you to season one.
Guests have been on here,especially Deborah.
(53:31):
You are special today becauseyou are my last guest of season
one, 28, episode 28.
My birthday is August 28thAuspicious number here.
So, yes, Thank you all.
Hi everyone and welcome to today's episode of On
the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum, mental healthchallenges and anybody who has
had an adverse story that canshare how they've overcome that
adversity and leave peoplefeeling empowered, connected,
(00:24):
full of love and hope, withcourage and determination,
especially in a world where weare made to feel disconnected
from one another.
Our goal here on this podcastis to help people feel connected
and feel like we are more alikethan different.
On this podcast episode today,we have a very special guest,
(00:51):
deborah Griffiths.
I met her.
I had the privilege of meetingher at CreativeCon back in
February of this year and I willbe seeing her in Chicago again
in 2025.
And I will be seeing her inChicago again in 2025.
And Debra is an amazing person.
I remember when she did herpodcast pitch in front of the
(01:16):
stage for everyone, and thereason I was drawn to her story
is all the reasons we're goingto talk about on today's podcast
.
Debra is a survivor of a toxicmarriage.
She's undergone a lot of abusein her marriage and she now uses
(01:36):
what she has gone through andhas a company called From Broken
to Boldness and it helps people, especially women, who've gone
through abusive relationshipsand she helps them with building
their self-esteem, reclaimingtheir life.
Because everyone knows and as atherapist here I can also say
(02:02):
one of the first things thatgets taken from people in any
kind of toxic relationshipwhether it be an intimate
relationship, whether it betoxic friendships, whether it be
a toxic employment relationshipor family relationship dynamic
the first thing that gets takenis, in fact, your sense of
self-worth, your sense ofself-esteem and your feeling
(02:24):
that, like who am I?
I don't you know.
If everyone hates me, I'm goingto hate me too.
Like what's wrong with me?
It's not uncommon for people toask these questions when
they've gone through things,especially when they are
belittled by someone who makesthem feel like the world is
against them.
And without further ado, let'sjust please welcome Debra to the
(02:47):
platform.
Debra, welcome on here.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Good morning Welcome.
Thank you, Sonia, for having me.
Thank you for the opportunity.
I look forward to having thechat.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, thank you so much for being here, debra.
Why don't you tell people alittle bit about you, in the
sense of like sharing a littlebit of your story?
Talking about you know just whoyou are.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Sure, I am actually divorced.
I'm a mother of three children,two boys and a girl, who have
long flown the coop.
But I found myself about 25years ago waking up in the psych
ward, learning that I hadattempted suicide.
And when my doctor who I hadbeen seeing because I had been
(03:39):
battling some depression anddidn't know quite why I was
battling depression he came intomy room and said your
environment is making you sickand that hit me like a 10-ton
truck, you know.
And I realized that themarriage that I had been in was
(04:00):
toxic and that I needed to getout of it was toxic and that I
needed to get out of it.
I wanted to show my kids thatthey had a strong mother.
I also wanted to show my kidsthat the abuse, what was going
on, this type of relationship isnot normal.
(04:22):
I did not want them to get intothese kind of situations, nor
did I want them to learn totreat other people, especially
intimate partners going forwardlike this.
So I felt like the abuse neededto end with me.
So I left the marriage.
And so I left the marriage andslowly but surely took two of
(04:46):
the three kids, because at thetime the oldest one was 14 and
could decide which parent hecould live with, and he chose
his father.
So I took the other two kids andI had been a stay-at-home mom.
So I had to find a place tolive.
I had to find a job that couldsupport two kids and myself and
(05:08):
slowly rebuild my life,including getting my kids some
some help, because there was alot of.
It was a bitter divorce.
I'll just say that it was verybitter and the kids, you know,
got caught up into it.
You know they exhibit some ofthe typical behavior, you see,
(05:30):
based on their ages.
At the time A lot of it wasacting out or, you know, anger,
but it just took a long time torebuild.
I eventually worked my way upthe corporate ladder and put
myself back to through schooland finished college and got a
college degree and worked withyou know been working with my
(05:51):
kids.
I have a great relationshipwith the three kids today.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
You know, and you know it's a very courageous uh
story.
You shared in the what you'veovercome and I know it takes a
lot of bravery to actually saythat this is what had happened
to me.
This is where I ended up,because I was in such a toxic
environment, waking up in a unit, because I tried to end my life
.
Um, tom, so if we were todissect this marriage, when you
(06:24):
look back at it, what were someof the things you started to
notice first, like what weresome of the red flags you that
were getting presented to youthat you missed at the time, and
how did it progress into aplace where you got so broken
down that you felt like the onlyway out is just not being on
(06:46):
earth anymore?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
That's a great question.
And it wasn't any one thing.
It was a combination of yearsof little things that kind of
kept adding up.
I was 19 when I married him.
When I met him, I thought hewas the one being brought up.
Catholic Divorce was not in thevocabulary and so, you know, I
(07:09):
took my vows very, veryseriously.
Probably the first red flag andI talk about a little bit in my
book is when my dad went towalk me down the aisle.
My stomach did a huge flip.
To walk me down the aisle, mystomach did a huge flip and I
(07:30):
remember grabbing onto my dadand he said you know, you don't
have to go through this.
Well, by that time there's 200people in the church and they're
all looking at me because I'mliterally in the entrance and
stuff.
And I thought, no, I thought Ichalked it up to wedding day
dinners and I didn't think youknow anything more about it.
And then it was just littlethings throughout the years,
(07:53):
like being told not to wear nailpolish or very controlling like
no, I don't think you should gosee.
You know, your friends, let'sgo do this instead.
Over the course of the yearsthere was more and more
(08:13):
isolation from my family.
He'd find ways of taking, maybe, things that I had said in the
past and twisting them andturning them.
Turning them, you know, to makeit think like, oh, yeah, yeah,
well, maybe you know, maybe,maybe maybe you're right.
You know, I realize now he'sprobably really paranoid, you
know, because not letting metalk to you know too much to
(08:36):
other people I wanted at onepoint in time there's an age
difference about six yearsbetween my oldest and the second
one, and I wanted to go back towork, you know, just to kind of
get out of the house a littlebit, because by that time the
oldest one was in, in likepreschool type of thing, and I
(08:57):
was basically told well, if youtake a job, you still have to
clean the house and keep the carup and keep the yard up, and I
want my shirts pressed andironed.
So I was made to feel like,well, why bother?
You know, it wouldn't evenallow the dry cleaners to, you
know, to press the shirts Right,and so it just eventually got
(09:22):
to the point where I didn'trealize it at the time, but I
was walking on eggshells, youknow, if the sky was blue, no,
there's a few clouds on it.
So, whatever I said, I was madeto feel like I was wrong.
And going back to that stomachflip, I'm about 17 years into
(09:46):
the marriage, right, and pickedup a magazine National Woman's
Magazine in the grocery storesdoing the weekly shopping and
there was a recipe on the coverand I thought, well, let me try
that something.
And there was an article inthere about verbal abuse and I
remember seeing it and I justput the magazine down, didn't
(10:14):
think about it.
And a couple of days later Ipicked up the magazine and I
read the article and this womantalks about how her stomach was
flipping every time her husbandwould come home and she knew
that there was something wrong.
Stomach was flipping every timeher husband would come home and
she knew that there wassomething wrong.
Now, by this time in themarriage, my, my ex was, um,
doing a lot of traveling, sohe'd be gone for almost a week
at a time, which was kind oflike a breathing room now that I
(10:36):
look back at it.
And when he opened up thegarage door coming home, it was
like Friday afternoon.
My stomach flipped and Ithought, oh no, this couldn't be
.
So the next week, um, ithappened again and by about that
(10:58):
time.
Um, I decided to to seek somesome professional help because I
didn't know, I wasn't happy.
And I picked up the phone oneday and talked to my mom.
Now, granted, this was back inthe day when the rates were
cheaper to dial after 7 o'clockor to call after 7 o'clock than
now, but this was during themiddle of the day and, again,
(11:23):
even calling my parents, it wasvery controlled, like how often
I could call them, when I couldcall them, etc.
So I call my mom and I said iseverything OK?
And I said you know, I don'tknow.
I said all I know is I'm nothappy and I don't know why.
And she said I have beenpraying for this call for years,
(11:48):
oh my.
And I said what?
And she said we talked a littlebit about some stuff, maybe why
I wasn't happy.
And she said you know, becausewe always thought he was
controlling but we couldn't putour fingers on it, thought he
was controlling but we couldn'tput our fingers on it.
(12:09):
So that's when I knew I neededto probably get some help and
kind of figure this out, whatwas going on.
And I remember the first visit.
I'd written a bunch of stuffdown and I'm reading it to the
doctor.
And at the end of the session,I mean, he didn't say a word, I
just kept talking.
And at the end of the session,I mean he didn't say a word, I
just kept talking.
And at the end of the session Ijust said you know, I don't
know what's wrong with me.
And he looked at me and he saidthere's nothing wrong with you.
(12:32):
And that just started my wheelsturning.
It's like, okay, if there'snothing wrong with me, then what
is going on?
Am I not happy?
And that's when we slowlystarted unraveling some of this
stuff.
I learned about codependencyand boundaries and, um, you know
(12:55):
, was trying to talk to my ex atthe time and and I had to be
very careful about it because Ididn't know when he was gonna
fly off the coop and and so itit just didn't.
It just kept spiraling downhilland he tried to make an effort,
you know to to make somechanges, but it was you know how
(13:16):
your your pendulum it was.
It's stuck in one way.
Then all of a sudden it goesthe other way.
It's like wait a minute, aminute, I can't handle that.
I need, I need something morein the middle and it just kept
spiraling and I started to getvery, very depressed.
As I say that, that to thepoint where you know I attempted
suicide.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And so, and that's a really really that's really
tough.
And you know, I do see a lot of, you know, understanding and I
have a lot of understanding,rather, about how you felt in
that sense because you know,based off alone what you're
saying about how everything wascontrolled.
(13:59):
Even if you had a job, therewere certain tasks that needed
to be done, things done in acertain way.
It seemed like you know alsoeven your own parents.
The amount of contact you couldhave with your parents, even
with your friends, that was alsovery controlled as well.
So it seems like you werepractically living in a prison
(14:20):
in your own home.
You know, you know it's likeyou were a prisoner in your own
home and the prison guard reallywas your ex.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, you know, when you now look at it it does paint
that picture and as, again,this took 17 years to get to, to
get to this point.
So you know we did have somegood memories.
I mean, there's always.
I have great memories of youknow, my kids and doing things
with them and stuff like that.
(14:50):
I don't want to paint it all asthe the, the bleak, a bleak
picture, but when it but, it wasenough.
What do they call it?
It's like love.
You know, things are all of asudden good and then you think
everything's good and then allof a sudden there's a bomb drops
(15:12):
and it's like what in the worldjust happened?
And you're you're thinking,well, what did I do, what did I
say?
And it hadn't been nothing, youknow, and I could have sneezed
the wrong way.
It couldn't have been nothing,you know, and I could have
sneezed the wrong way, and thebomb just drops.
And then you know, then thingsstart getting good again and
then the bomb drops again.
(15:32):
So it was that constant, whatthey now call love bombing that
I was involved in.
So that's why it took.
It took a long time for me tokind of realize it and again, 25
years ago.
They didn't really talk aboutit, they didn't even call what I
was going through gaslighting.
(15:53):
They barely called it verbalabuse and really didn't even
liken that to domestic abuse,which we now know is part of
gaslighting is part of domesticabuse, abuse, which we now know
is part of gaslighting is partof domestic abuse.
So there's, you know, I'm kindof like living in a time where
there's not a lot talked aboutor and again, control.
(16:15):
You know, it was more like myparents thought he was
controlling Not so much.
You know, narcissism wasn'teven really talked about, you
know then, and him justexhibiting narcissistic
tendencies which led to this.
So I'm grateful now there's alot more information, you know,
(16:36):
for people to be aware.
It's just sad that still somany people are caught in these
type of situations and why.
I really kind of want to talkabout it and raise these red
flags, and it's not just the redflags, it's the subtleties of,
of the abuse.
Because you can, you, you know,I'm the kind of type, I'm the
(17:00):
type of person that I try tolook for the good in somebody
before I ever see the bad.
And you know, it's so easy tochalk off something like OK,
well, he got bad.
Maybe he's just having a badday, and then it gets to the
point of how many times are yougoing to chalk it up to he's
(17:20):
having a bad day?
Is writing it as an excuse?
That's something that I didn'tcorrelate to, and one thing is I
will say is I wish I hadlistened to my gut at the very
beginning, but then again Idon't regret anything because
(17:43):
number one, I learned a a lotand I wouldn't have the three
kids that I have today.
So I and I'm the type of personthat thinks that things happen,
and things happen to us or forus to get to a certain point,
you know, as part of our purpose, our overall purpose I feel
(18:07):
like now, you know, it's my turnto help somebody else.
Somebody else gets that flip intheir stomach from what I just
said today and made a change tosave their life, then this is
worth it.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You know and when you look back at you know the that
flip in your stomach that youhad when you were walking down
the aisle.
Was there something that youmay have noticed when you were
dating that we can look back andreflect on and think you know
what this is, this was not okay,I should have or not?
(18:46):
I don't want to, and I teach myclients this all the time.
We never want to be like shouldhave, you know, like I tell
them stop shooting yourself allthe time.
Right, because we never want tosay should have.
But what is something maybe Ilearned from this?
As another way, let me rephrasethat Look, what is something I
could have learned from thiswhen I look back, you know in
(19:08):
the dating stages let alone themarriage, but the dating stages
that when I was all dolled upwalking down the aisle with all
these people at the church, Icould have avoided maybe.
Perhaps I could have maybechanged direction or try to work
things out or whatever you hadto do beforehand or said
(19:32):
something beforehand.
Knowing what you know now, whatis something in dating that you
may have seen?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
That's a great question, because there was an
incident.
We met in college.
It was both our first year incollege and about it was like
the first week of college.
Basically we met and we bothhad early morning classes and so
we would meet in the parkinglot and for the most part for I
(20:01):
don't know half a dozen, maybe adozen times, he he'd come to my
car, we'd sit in the car, we'dtalk, um, listen to music.
You know, before we had toactually get out to, you know,
get go to class.
One morning I'm in the parkinglot and he doesn't come over, he
just sits there, won't look atme, won't, won't do anything,
(20:22):
you know nothing.
And I just sat in the car anddid my thing and and then um, go
to leave for class and I saidgood morning and nothing.
I got like the dead silenttreatment and uh, it took almost
all day, you know, for for himto kind of finally say you know,
(20:43):
do I have to be the one to doall the work, you know?
And blah, blah, blah, blah, andI'm like I'm sorry, I didn't
know that this bothered you, youknow you never said anything to
me and I look back now is like,well, that was, he should not
have treated me that way, youknow, he, I did deserve a
conversation and if it'sbothered, and then then say, hey
(21:07):
, you know, hey, how about?
Maybe on Tuesdays you come into, you know, you come to my car,
and Thursdays I go to your car,something to that effect, and it
was through.
Uh, and there were a couple ofother incidents.
I can't quite recall them offoff the top of my head, but I
know that that was a prettypivotal one early on.
(21:30):
And and again, I didn't sayanything to my parents or
anything, because didn't didn'treally think to, because I think
if I had said something to mymom she probably would have said
, well, that seems weird and um,but going back after I left,
I've always kept, I've alwayskept, like, all the cards and
(21:51):
think, you know, my kids artwork, all that kind of stuff
throughout the years and I'mlooking at all these cards and a
bunch of them must have startedoff saying I'm sorry, I made
you angry, I'm sorry'm sorry,I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and I'm
like, oh my gosh, and you know,I'm apologizing for things that
(22:15):
I shouldn't have apologized forso your ex made you feel like
you were the problem each andevery time, yes.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Was there ever a time you remembered him taking
accountability for anything?
No, no.
And was there ever a time whenyou decided then, like was there
ever a time then your kids,like, did they ever get treated
also by your ex in the same kindof way, or was it different?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
That's another interesting question my oldest I
always joke that I have his andher boys and a combination girl
.
By that I mean my oldest onelooks like his dad.
My second son looks like me andthen my daughter has both of
(23:24):
her brother's features and looksand stuff.
My oldest one was always thefavorite and I think maybe a lot
of it was because he lookedlike his dad.
When my second one came alonghe looked at him and said, oh,
(23:44):
he looks different.
And and that was before I couldyou know the nurse the nurse
came and put him in my arms andwhen I took a look at him and I
went, oh no, I thought he lookslike me, you know, and I said
it's okay, it's amazing what DNAand genes do.
And always throughout the yearsthere was a difference between
(24:09):
how the two boys were treated.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
the years there was a difference between how the two
boys were treated and a lot oftimes, people with a toxic kind
of personality um will do thatright.
They will love to.
You know, divide people dividebecause in doing so right
(24:33):
they're able to control, keeptheir control, have their power,
exert their power.
And you know, one of the keysof people who are toxic is they
want you to feel like you cannotlive without them, that you
would not have, you would nothave anything.
You would not have anything Ifit wasn't for them.
(24:54):
It's, you know that it's justone of those things they want
you to feel like.
Okay, like you're.
You know that You'resuffocating In there the air you
need.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, and his parting words to me Were you will never
make it and no one will everlove you, and they're the air
you need.
Well, and his parting words tome were you will never make it
and no one will ever love you,which, by that time, that was
the wrong thing to say to me.
So it just propelled me toprove him wrong, and I, you know
(25:33):
I have.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Absolutely you have, I have, so you.
So tell me a little bit nowabout, like what it was like to
go through this divorce.
Now I know his parting wordswere very harmful and untrue and
(25:56):
, once again, all driven mostlikely because of his fear he
was losing control at that pointof view, and he was losing
control of a family unit.
So what, um?
So what was the divorce processlike for you?
You know what was it like withthe kids.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Well, once he I finally had the courage to say
this isn't working, I can't dothis anymore.
He took it better than Ithought he would and we each got
attorneys started doing theprocess.
But when it came time for me tomove out I couldn't even get
all my stuff.
He had changed the locksthankful that I had the child
(26:55):
support garnished, because therewas other aspects that that he
was supposed to reimburse me forand it didn't happen until like
18 years later.
So it was pretty, pretty messyand he started alienating with
the kids that the oldest oneparticularly, got to the point
where he wouldn't even talk tome if I were to call, say hi at
the weekly visits we were stillliving in the same city at the
(27:19):
time oh, he wouldn't, hewouldn't come.
This is my oldest child now.
He wouldn't come.
You know, spend time with mefor dinner, things, things of
that nature.
The other two would go to gosee their dad.
They would come back fromvisitation Kind of hyped up.
(27:43):
They would act out for a littlebit until you know they got
back into the routine becausethey would hear a lot of you
know dad said this about you orthat.
You know they got back into theroutine because they would hear
a lot of you know well, dadsaid this about you or that you
know this and that.
And the kids I mean my youngestone was about five or six at
the time, so this was still apretty impactful formative years
(28:06):
.
You know for them, you know forthem for them.
Uh, then about a couple yearsand into this, he met someone,
remarried, moved out of state.
We were both living in Georgiaat the time and my family was in
California.
So once he moved, then I wasable I moved back to California
(28:31):
to have more family support forthe two kids that I had.
And also by that time my oldestone had left the house, he had
started college, so he was in adorm.
So I felt like that wasprobably the best timing for me
to make my move with the othertwo.
And again, not much of arelationship with the oldest one
(28:54):
.
That took many, many yearsbefore we could kind of
reestablish that relationship.
I remained.
You know it's painful as amother not to have a
relationship with your child.
It's pretty painful.
I just was consistent.
(29:16):
I would call weekly, leave amessage, and you know that was
it.
Every now and then he wouldcall because there would be
something going on that heneeded help with.
He wouldn't call his dad he wascalling me and and then
(29:37):
eventually, um it, it just allkind of changed and now we have
we have a great relationship.
It took a long time.
Uh, the basic thing anybody, Iwould say, going through
parental alienation.
My heart goes out to you.
Number one and number two beconsistent.
Even if they don't pick up thephone and talk to you, just
(29:59):
leave a message, send thebirthday card, send the
Christmas card, but beconsistent.
It's that consistency that kidsrely on.
And then the other two my sonhad a lot of anger issues and
(30:24):
especially would act up after hewould have a visit with his dad
, and he actually went down theillegal drug route for a while
and this was he ended updropping out of high school,
which pained me.
And when he turned 18, and Ihad taken him to rehab a couple
(30:48):
of times and not try to get himcleaned up and stuff Well, he
relapsed.
He had turned 18 and I kickedhim out.
He was doing drugs in front ofhis sister.
And I said I'm not allowing this.
He said you, you, you got to goHardest thing I ever had to do,
(31:12):
but the best thing I ever did,and probably within six months,
probably even less than that.
There was an incident where hewas.
He called me, he was down atthe sheriff's department and
this was like two in the morning.
I thought he had gottenarrested.
But there was another incidentthat he was there at the time
and and I happened to talk tothe sheriff and I said is there
(31:34):
any way you can put him in aholding cell for 24 hours?
For him, I just need him to getto rock bottom, because he was
high at the time.
And the sheriff said he's highright now.
He goes.
I would love to be able to helpyou to do that, but the laws
have changed and we can nolonger do do that kind of stuff.
(31:55):
I said okay, so I took him homewith me that night.
I said it's like by this timeit's like four in the morning
and I said I gotta get to work,but you just crash on the couch
and I will take you to like aABC facility or something like
that the next morning.
So I'm getting ready for work.
I happen to look out throughthe window at the patio and he's
(32:19):
sitting on the patio and I said, are you okay?
And he starts sobbing and hesaid Mom, all of this time I
have been mad at you when itshould have been dad.
But I know, and that shockedhim that when I said I know, and
(32:54):
he and he decided then toenlist in the, in the army, get
his act together, he went back,got a diploma, found the way to
to do that and went into thearmy, served for 12 and a half
years, including a year inafghanistan, and I couldn't be
more proud.
And then my daughter uh, sheprobably had, because she was
the youngest, probably had theleast impact, but what I did
(33:15):
find was, you know, she could bekind of clingy at clingy and
needy, you know, especially forme.
And when she got ready to go tocollege, she went to, she
stayed in a dorm, got into adorm and stuff best thing, best
thing ever, you know, for her toget, just to get some of that
independence.
And she's now married, andhappily married, actually three
(33:39):
years, their three yearanniversary today and has a
almost five and a half month oldlittle boy.
So she's doing well little boy.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
So she's doing well.
Yeah, you know, and it's aremarkable, you know, journey
with your children.
You know how they, you know,especially with your son turning
his life around and you know,and also you know the journey
with you, know how things haveevolved with your, with your
children and, um, you know, I'mreally, you know, touched by how
(34:13):
your son was able to say, youknow how he felt, finally, after
all these years, and what wasit like for you to hear what
your husband would say, ex,would say about you to your kids
, and when they would come andbe that messenger and tell you.
What was that like for you tohear that these things were
(34:36):
being said about you.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh, it makes you angry.
Um, it really, you know, andand it's hard, because you're
trying to heal yourself, youknow, and get over the some of
the you know, rebuild your selfesteem, and then to hear it, and
it's kind of hard.
Sometimes it would trigger me alittle bit more than than
(34:58):
others, but I always, always didmy best and never bad mouth him
and then just kind of just sayyou know, let him do all, let
him be.
That's your dad, this is me.
I'm not going to do that.
Let's try to focus on somethingelse that's more positive, more
healthy.
We're living our lives, we'regoing to be happy, we're going
(35:22):
to survive, we're going to befine, right.
But it takes a while.
I mean, you know, now there'severy now and then something is
sad and it's like, okay,whatever, you know.
And now I can just shr sad andit's like okay, whatever.
And now I can just shrug it offlike eh, whatever.
After all, this time it's likeif he's still angry at me.
(35:51):
How sad, how sad.
It's been a long time, over 25years.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
It's long past the time to get over it.
I have other things to do, Idon't have time for the anger
and the hate, and you'veactually showed through your
actions you don't have time forthe anger and the hate.
So you went back to school.
What did you get?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
your degree in In organizational leadership.
By that time I was in thehomeowners association industry
where I was there for like 30years.
So you know, from managingcommunities to getting into
supervision and stuff ofmanaging other managers and
helping empower them to managethe communities and stuff that
(36:34):
they were assigned.
So it's a challenging industry.
There's no ifs ands or butsabout it.
But you know it treated mereally well for raising two kids
and you know I recently retired, earlier this year so I could
focus more on writing andraising awareness.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
And in your writing.
Now you have written a book,torch by a Gaslighter, which you
fictionalized, which tells yourstory more.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yes, and yes it's based on true events, but those
true events are what wouldhappen to me those true events
are what would happen to me.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Okay, and I'm really looking forward to reading it.
I have it on my list of thingsto read, so and I'm actually,
once I'm done reading it, Ithink I'm going to share this
book with other people and shareit.
I actually have some clientsright now who are going through
what you're going through, orwent through.
Rather um, one's in the processnow and um, so I'm definitely
(37:37):
excited to share it with them.
Uh, and also, you started now acompany from broken to boldness
.
Can you tell us a little bitabout when that formed, uh, how
you got into that, doing that,and, um, what it's been like for
you to have this up and running?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, after I, or as I was writing Torched I just
call it Torched for short.
You know the publisher wastalking about, you know, being
able to promote your book andstuff and that's when I thought
about, well, come up with acompany name.
And we were Googling, you know,noodling all kinds of things,
(38:18):
and I came up with that andbroke into boldness because it's
like at one point in time I wasbroken and now I've come pretty
much full circle and I'm prettybold and coming out and
speaking about it and raisingawareness.
And I'm pretty bold in comingout and speaking about it and
raising awareness.
So I started that and so, youknow, 50% of the book sale
(38:40):
proceeds are being donated tothe Nicole Sincouli Foundation.
Nicole lost her life young woman, early 20s, from her boyfriend
who domestic violence killed herwith a claw hammer, stuck her
like 13 times, horrible,horrible story.
I knew the parents I went toactually college with with her
(39:02):
father, so, uh, so it's likepartnering with that foundation
and you know my website has somesome uh resources and stuff,
including the national domesticviolenceestic Violence Awareness
Hotline information like that.
Again, it's just about raisingawareness and continuing to, you
(39:23):
know, to do that and lookingfor ways to tell my story.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
And what are your, you know, and I want to first
and foremost, commend you on allthe work you've done and thank
you for all the awareness thatyou're putting out there and for
sharing your vulnerabilitiesand for sharing your story.
I feel like the more we hold in, you know, the more that it
(39:53):
keeps us back, but I feel likeonce we let our stories out,
it's like we become likemetamorphed into butterflies and
can fly.
The way I look at it, Like youknow, by holding it in, you stay
that caterpillar right.
And then letting it out.
Letting it out, you metamorphinto a butterfly and what you've
(40:22):
been through and the fact thatyou're so brave to share with us
today.
I just can't thank you enoughfor all of this and, honestly,
it's an honor to have you onhere to share this with me.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
You're so sweet.
Thank you so much.
I think the biggest thing thatholds us back is fear.
Yes, it is, and I know I wasafraid, you know, of even
getting it out there and starttalking about it.
And I was afraid, you know,when I before, right before I
released the book, and it's likewhat are people going to think?
(40:52):
You know what?
How are they going to look atme?
How are they?
It's like how, how, why would awoman like that stay in a
situation for so long?
All of these thoughts keptgoing into my head.
And when I started talking aboutit, you know, for the pre-sales
, I had more people come up tome, including in the, in my HOA
(41:14):
industry at the time.
They're saying thank you, thishappened to me, thank you for
sharing your story.
And the fear lifted, you know,and even the fear of leaving the
marriage, you know, all themany years ago.
So many women and there's menthat stay in these kind of it
(41:38):
happens to men too.
I don't want to just say it'swomen, but I can only speak from
a woman's perspective.
We stay in these relationshipsbecause we're afraid.
We're afraid of more abuse,we're afraid we're not going to
be able to make it, cause ittakes, like women, seven times
(41:58):
before they can, you know, onaverage to actually leave these
relationships because there's somuch fear and and, and it's all
I can say is make the decision.
If you need help cause you'reafraid there's it's more
physical violence and stuffinvolved, contact the national
domestic violence awarenessoutline.
(42:19):
They can help you.
Um, but get out, because I'mtelling you you can rebuild your
life and cross that bridge andyou're gonna you're gonna be so
glad you did.
Your kids will thank you, yes,yeah, and I think what also
makes it going to be so glad youdid.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Your kids will thank you.
Yes, yeah, and I think whatalso makes it going to your
point you were saying it takes aperson seven times on average
to leave.
I think what makes itespecially tricky, though, is
the fact that most violence thepeak of you know most people,
when they get killed by adomestic violent ab the
(42:57):
resources when they'redisclosing they're going to
leave to be protected.
Is there a way that perhapsmaybe policemen could come to
(43:23):
the house or some security couldbe sent, or is there, is there
something like that going on forpeople right now?
For people?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
right now?
Yes, I believe so, and I wouldalso check with your local city
and county.
You know, even like thecourthouse, you know there could
be resources right there inyour local city and county that
can help provide thatinformation A lot of times if
it's going to be that violent.
You know they kind of cautionyou not to tell anybody your
(43:56):
plans, because people can findout.
They can search your phone,they can search your Internet
activity.
There's ways you can do thismore safely Go to local shelters
, Contact the local shelter.
Go there, contact the localshelter.
Uh, go there, they can.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
They can help protect you and get the, the police or
the sheriff, the local lawenforcement and stuff to help to
help yes, yes, and I thinkthat's, you know, a valuable
resource for people to know,because a lot of people right
now may be in these situationsand the holidays surely don't
(44:35):
make it easy at all no, I wasjust going to say, in fact, a
lot.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
There's more.
The incidence of domestic abuseincreased during the holidays.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yes, you think about all those expectations that
people want met during theholidays too, all those
expectations that people wantmet during the holidays too.
And if you're already in acontrolled setting, it only just
amplifies even that much higher.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, especially if there's any kind of money
concerns.
You know people, that you knowfinancials.
All that stress can put atrigger on someone exploding and
you know controlling asituation and more victims.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
So what would be your piece of advice to people going
through this now?
What would be your biggestpiece of advice to people trying
to, you know, who've just lefta relationship that was abusive,
who just are trying to rebuildtheir lives, people who are
going through it and are scaredto leave Like?
What kind of advice pieces oflike advice or pieces of
(45:43):
empowerment or suggestions canyou give?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Well for women who have just left these
relationships.
Don't give up hope.
There is help out there.
There's resources, a lot moreresources than when I did it 25
years ago.
So reach out.
If you need to get professionalhelp, get professional help
(46:10):
there's, you know, your family,your friends.
Just look for those resourcesAgain, the local shelters and
stuff can help also help.
If you're in the middle of asituation and you think that I
can't do this anymore again,reach out, maybe to the local
shelters or the domesticviolence hotline shelters or the
(46:38):
domestic violence hotline andask them to help and give you
the guidance that you need toprotect yourself and your
children so that you can safelyleave.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
And um Debra, where can people find you if they want
to reach out to you for support, for any kind of, you know,
just information, or Sure,probably the best way is my
website, wwwwereopentwo, andthat's eoholdnesscom.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
My email address is on there.
Boldnesscom, my email addressis on there.
You know my book.
You can purchase my book on thewebsite as well.
It's also available on Amazon.
So, yes, that's probably thebest way to reach out.
Contact me, I'm here to help.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I'm here to help.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I'm here to listen.
I'm here to help.
I'm here to help.
I'm here to listen.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
You know you're doing such amazing work and I want to
thank you.
You know, and I just rememberwhen you did your podcast pitch
about how you went from wakingup in the unit you know you were
doing that podcast pitch forpeople on stage, on the main
stage at creative con.
I remember just really reallygetting drawn into your story at
(47:59):
that point because it was justso powerful and the way you
delivered it and the way thatyou expressed yourself and the
things you have shared atcreative con.
Um, I think you know your storyis going to help so many people
.
You've already been making somuch impact.
You've done an amazing job,being persistent and, you know,
(48:23):
building bonds with yourchildren and even though, yes,
the road was not easy at all foryou, but you really have shown
and I think your story is a truetestament that anybody can and
will rebuild their life with theright determination, with the
right courage, with the rightmotivation and somebody as bold
(48:44):
as you are.
You are nowhere close to evenbeing broken and, if anything,
being broken, if you look atthat too, that's also a
beautiful thing in and of itselfin some ways, you know, if we
look at that, because whenyou're broken.
This is what allows the lightto come into you, right?
(49:05):
Yes, yeah, broken glassreflects a lot of light, if we
like that yeah, yeah, you're,you're right.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, and and I'm not ashamed of saying that that I
was broken.
I'm not again.
Um, I was recently readingsomething and I kind of wrote a
little bit of a little blogabout it.
But you know, life happens foryou, not to you.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yes, yes, you know, and I feel like that is such an
amazing testament to what lifereally is, because everything
that happens to us depending onour outlook, it can we don't
(49:52):
have answers to, right?
Nobody ever asks to get abused,nobody ever asked to get you
know, be living in war zones,for example, or be brought up in
situations where you know you.
You're not even sure ifstepping outside the house could
be your last time steppingoutside the house, right?
(50:12):
Where?
Because the neighborhood is sovolatile, certain things just
don't have the answers to.
But you know, I think.
But you show us today on herethat you put that power in you
and the magic happens when youdecide to give that power to
(50:33):
yourself instead of giving itaway Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Well, Debra.
Thank you so so much for beinghere and everyone.
This wraps season one of On theSpectrum with Sonia and it's an
auspicious episode and I oh myGod I'll try not to cry when I
do this.
I ended it.
This is episode number 28.
28 is a special number for mebecause my birthday is August
28th.
(51:10):
I got the privilege of wrappingup season one of On the Spectrum
with Sonia with a fabulousguest that I met at Creative Con
this past February and I'mgoing to see her again.
Funny enough, the people whopublished her book for
motivation champs with DominicDomansky, who is simply the best
publisher on earth.
He's actually publishing mybook dropped in a maze, which is
going to be launched February21st.
(51:32):
Deborah will be there, guys.
So another reason for you guysto come and support this cause
and come to the book launch andpurchase the book, Um, and also
purchase Deborah Griffith's booktorch by a gas lighter torch
for short.
You can get it on Amazon.
I promise you you will read itand it will be so helpful, Maybe
(51:56):
, if not for yourself, forsomebody you love or you know,
whether it be a colleague, afriend, a cousin, an aunt, your
mom, who knows who?
It can help, but it will helpmany people out there and um
(52:21):
many people out there.
And also, you know, just be onthe lookout, because Deborah is
up to great things and she is anunstoppable force.
And she has taught us today thebiggest thing right, Right,
(52:44):
Listen to your gut.
You have the power in you.
You are not the the problem.
When you're in an abusiverelationship where somebody is
constantly belittling you,controlling you, the problem is
not you, it's the other person.
And the other person get asnasty as they may, but you are
not the opinion of them.
So, with that being said, we'reconcluding this.
(53:09):
Thank you all for tuning in.
I will be resuming on thespectrum with Sonia after the
new year.
All for tuning in.
I will be resuming on thespectrum with Sonia after the
new year, and so stay tuned forgreat, great guests and more
great content to come.
Thank you all for those who'vebeen supporting me.
Thank you to season one.
Guests have been on here,especially Deborah.
(53:31):
You are special today becauseyou are my last guest of season
one, 28, episode 28.
My birthday is August 28thAuspicious number here.
So, yes, Thank you all.
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